HistoryExtra Podcast: "Thomas More: Life of the Week"

Host: Kev Lotchen
Guest: Dr. Joanne Paul (Historian and biographer)
Date: February 10, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of the HistoryExtra podcast explores the life and legacy of Thomas More, the Tudor jurist, humanist, writer, and martyr. Dr. Joanne Paul, author of a recent biography on More, joins host Kev Lotchen to unravel the complexities, contradictions, and evolving reputation of one of history’s most scrutinized figures. The conversation navigates More’s childhood, education, literary accomplishments, rapid social ascent, work under Henry VIII, infamous record with religious heretics, and his ultimate fall and execution.

The Two Faces of Thomas More

[00:45–02:40]

• More is painted both as a “man of conscience” (à la A Man For All Seasons) and as a “zealot bigot” (as in Wolf Hall).
• These portrayals stem from 16th-century weaponized history—Catholics and Protestants each shaped More’s image for their own needs. John Foxe’s Book of Martyrs immortalized the Protestant version, while Catholic exiles promoted the saintly vision.
• Both images draw from near-contemporary sources yet diverge widely in their depiction.

Quote:
"There are these two versions of More ... both drawing on sources near to or just after Thomas More's life, but they're completely divergent." — Dr. Joanne Paul [02:27]

Did Thomas More Change English History?

[02:40–04:08]

• Despite his fame, Joanne Paul contends More did not directly alter the course of English history. His influence is indirect, more grounded in his posthumous reputation than in immediate action.

Quote:
"It's hard to point to one single thing, and it's hard to point to something really concrete and immediate ... His legacy is more complicated, I think." — Dr. Joanne Paul [03:26]

Early Life and Education

[04:08–07:20]

• More was not born into affluence; contrary to popular belief, his family's roots were modest.
• Grew up just outside the London wall—a less fashionable district—reflecting a subtle outsider perspective.
• Attended the only free grammar school in London due to limited family means, performing exceptionally.
• His big break came when he entered the household of Archbishop John Morton and subsequently attended Oxford (a path made possible by Morton).

Quote:
"There is this outsiderness to him that I think we don't quite grasp ... he really grew up in these less well to do suburbs." — Dr. Joanne Paul [05:24]

Social Mobility and Family

[07:20–08:06]

• The More family’s rapid ascent is a story of social mobility—Thomas proceeds from law student to court insider, eventually marrying and having four children.
• More notably educated his daughters to an advanced level for the time.

Views on Women’s Education

[08:06–10:03]

• Encouraged the intellectual development of his daughters (and other women in his orbit), drawing attention for their accomplishments—even debating before the king.
• However, the purpose of their education was not to prepare them for public life but to refine their domestic roles.
• More’s legacy is often overextended as “proto-feminist,” though he had progressive but limited intentions.

Quote:
"He did see the purpose of the education as different from his own ... It was to make them better wives and mothers." — Dr. Joanne Paul [09:18]

Early Encounters with Henry VIII and Erasmus

[10:03–11:27]

• More first met the young Henry in 1499 but the significant connection was with Erasmus; this friendship catalyzed More’s standing in the humanist intellectual movement.
• Their relationship highlighted the pan-European “Republic of Letters,” with Erasmus guiding More’s most important works.

Quote:
"Certainly Thomas More, the humanist, the Renaissance scholar as we know him, wouldn't have emerged ... without this friendship with Erasmus." — Dr. Joanne Paul [15:13]

Humanism and Utopia

[11:27–19:08]

• Humanism: For More, this meant Christian scholarly reform, drawing on ancient republican thought; it did not imply atheism.
• Utopia (written 1515, published 1516) is presented as both an “impossible” and “ideal” society, exploring themes of the good life, government, death, and equality.
• The book was enigmatic and critical of contemporary monarchs, debating service to rulers versus contemplation.

Quote:
"Utópia means both no place and best place ... that's part of the puzzle of Utopia." — Dr. Joanne Paul [16:43]
"One of Thomas More's most important arguments ... is that death is an equalizer and that death reminds us of the falsities of the world." [17:31]

Rise to Lord Chancellor

[19:08–22:53]

• A skilled lawyer and negotiator; his role in 1515 diplomatic missions led to his court ascent.
• Appointed Lord Chancellor after Wolsey’s fall—unusual as he was not a clergyman, reflecting public distrust of clerical authority.

Quote:
"Thomas More, although he's deeply religious ... is not a clergyman. And I think he's positioned as Lord Chancellor largely because he can be trusted at that level." — Dr. Joanne Paul [20:28]

Relationship with Henry VIII and "The Great Matter"

[22:53–25:04]

• More and Henry were not “friends” in the true sense; Henry did not tolerate equals.
• Henry appointed More Lord Chancellor knowing he disagreed on the king's desire for annulment from Catherine of Aragon ("the Great Matter").
• More consistently avoided involvement, refusing to participate in divorce machinations.

Quote:
"Henry finds himself in the position of having just appointed someone who disagrees with him on what he considers to be the most important matter of policy and personal life..." — Dr. Joanne Paul [23:53]

Loyalty, the Pope, and Catherine of Aragon

[25:04–28:31]

• More admired Catherine of Aragon and was considered her friend and defender, though he was cautious.
• Contrary to some portrayals, More was not obsessed with papal authority but believed in the collective, conciliar nature of the Church, paralleling his legal views on Parliament.

Quote:
"He has a much more sort of republican view of the Church ... so I think we have to be careful sometimes in making it about the Pope..." — Dr. Joanne Paul [27:33]

More’s Wit and Polemics

[28:31–30:00]

• Known for both understatement and overstatement, More was a witty, even scatalogical writer.
• In debates with Luther, his polemical style was sharp and at times crude.

Quote:
"He refers to Luther as having a, excuse me, but shitty mouth. Not that understated, not at all." — Dr. Joanne Paul [29:40]

Persecution of Heretics

[31:49–36:47]

• More’s record as Lord Chancellor in prosecuting heretics: six executions took place during his tenure, three with which he had direct contact.
• No evidence he personally tortured or sentenced anyone, but he did interrogate suspects and held strong convictions about the threat posed by heresy.
• She acknowledges the discomfort this contradiction presents: a humanist reformer who could simultaneously defend burning heretics.

Quote:
"He reasoned his way into this hatred, this violent hatred of heretics. He saw in their ideas and their beliefs a threat to everything he held dear... That complexity is part of what being human is." — Dr. Joanne Paul [35:38]

Asceticism and the Hair Shirt

[36:47–38:54]

• The legend of More’s secret hair shirt derives from posthumous, hagiographical sources, modeled on martyr stories like Thomas Becket’s.
• While a relic exists, historians are cautious about its authenticity—likely part of the posthumous saint-making process.

Resignation, Isolation, and Downfall

[38:54–40:28]

• More’s time as Lord Chancellor was brief; his inability to align with Henry over Church supremacy and the “submission of the clergy” led to his resignation.
• Officially stepped down for health reasons, but contemporaries understood the true political motivations.

Quote:
"He resigns and essentially decides to become just a private citizen... and focuses on his writing." — Dr. Joanne Paul [40:36]

Final Years and Imprisonment

[40:49–47:43]

• More continued anti-Reformation writing, but the context shifted, making him a target.
• Parliament’s demand for More to swear to the Act of Succession (and acknowledge royal supremacy)—he refused.
• Imprisoned in the Tower of London; conditions were comfortable at first, deteriorating after he lost writing privileges.
• Crucial “pudding of cases” conversation with Richard Rich provided the slender evidence for his conviction. This legalistic hypothetical was twisted by Cromwell into cause for treason.
• Trial was a show; Henry VIII had already determined the outcome.

Quote:
"This is the only piece of evidence that's given and it is enough to convict him." — Dr. Joanne Paul [47:37]

Execution and Legacy

[47:43–49:51]

• More could have saved himself at any point by capitulating; refused for the sake of conscience and soul’s salvation.
• Writings in the Tower, like the Dialogue of Comfort, reflect on the afterlife and the limited value of earthly life.
• Death came as the inevitable price for staying true to his beliefs.

Quote:
"He was not willing to sacrifice the salvation of his soul to save his body. And that's what he saw at stake in that choice." — Dr. Joanne Paul [49:11]

Epilogue: Reconciling More’s Complexity

[49:51–End]

• The guest dismisses simple binaries: More is neither saint nor monster, but a complex, contradictory, intensely human figure.
• Both historical and fictional versions of More serve contemporary needs and agendas; the challenge is to recognize him as a unified but complex individual capable of reason, wit, reform, dogmatism, and cruelty.

Quote:
"Both of those portrayals in the 16th century as now, were fictionalized for particular purposes ... what we miss... is that they are representations of a single person and that he was complex." — Dr. Joanne Paul [50:13]

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Weaponized History: Catholic vs. Protestant More – [01:12–02:40]
• Debate on More’s Immediate Impact – [02:57–04:08]
• Educational Background and Early Social Mobility – [04:24–07:07]
• Views on Educating Women – [08:06–10:03]
• The Genesis of Utopia – [16:31–19:08]
• Ascent to Lord Chancellor, Non-Clerical Context – [19:29–22:53]
• Relationship with Henry VIII and Refusal on the Great Matter – [22:53–25:04]
• Approach to Papal Authority vs. Parliament – [25:11–28:31]
• Scatological Polemics with Luther – [29:12–30:31]
• Record with Heresy Persecutions, Motivations – [32:00–36:47]
• The Hair Shirt Legend – [37:03–38:54]
• Resignation and Political Isolation – [39:03–40:49]
• Oath, Tower Imprisonment, and “Pudding of Cases” – [42:01–47:43]
• Show Trial, Quick Verdict – [47:43–48:33]
• Dialogue of Comfort and Final Reflections on Death – [48:46–49:51]
• The Problem with Simplistic More – [50:13–End]

Memorable Quotes

• On History’s Manipulation:
  "It is weaponized history... his reputation was already being used in all sorts of ways while he was alive..." — Dr. Joanne Paul [01:15]

• On Utopia:
  "Is it the best place? Maybe. But if it can't exist, can it possibly be that good?" — Dr. Joanne Paul [16:43]

• On Heresy:
  "He reasoned his way into this hatred, this violent hatred of heretics. He saw in their ideas and their beliefs a threat to everything he held dear." — Dr. Joanne Paul [35:38]

• On More’s Execution:
  "He was not willing to sacrifice the salvation of his soul to save his body." — Dr. Joanne Paul [49:11]

Conclusion

This episode paints a rich, multidimensional portrait of Thomas More—as idealist and inquisitor, reformer and persecutor, family man and martyr. Dr. Joanne Paul guides listeners through the shifting, contested representations of More, challenging us to embrace the uncomfortable coexistence of virtue and vice within a single historical figure. If you think you know Sir Thomas More, this conversation will make you reconsider him anew.