Underwear history: everything you wanted to know

Summary

History Extra Podcast: "Underwear History: Everything You Wanted to Know"

Release Date: December 15, 2024

Host and Expert

• Host: David Musgrove
• Expert: Dr. Serena Dyer, Associate Professor of Fashion History at De Montfort University

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Introduction to Underwear History

In this episode of the History Extra Podcast, Dr. Serena Dyer unpacks the intricate history of underwear, exploring its evolution from basic protective garments to complex fashion statements. The conversation delves into the practical, hygienic, and societal factors that have shaped what we wear beneath our clothes today.

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Origins and Definitions of Underwear

Defining Underwear:
Dr. Dyer emphasizes the complexity in defining underwear, noting that garments like loincloths, which are often considered underwear today, were once primary outerwear. "There's this interesting complication around what we are defining as underwear," she explains [03:04].

Early Examples:

• Celtic Braids: Worn by Celtic and Germanic tribes, these linen trousers served both as underwear and as supportive outerwear under animal skins and other garments [04:13].
• Animal Skins and Furs: In prehistoric times, layers of animal skins could be viewed as underwear, raising questions about their classification [03:04].

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Reasons for Wearing Underwear

Dr. Dyer outlines three primary reasons for the adoption of underwear throughout history:

1. Protection:
   Underwear acted as a barrier between the body and outer garments, such as armor, protecting both the body and the outerwear from sweat and oils [04:51].

2. Hygiene:
   The introduction of linen garments like smocks and shifts facilitated better hygiene by allowing easier washing and maintenance of cleanliness [04:51].

3. Modesty and Social Significance:
   As civilizations developed, ideas about modesty and societal norms influenced the distinction between underwear and outerwear. Wearing underwear became a symbol of civilization and social status [04:51].

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Underwear in the Classical World and Viking Age

Classical World:
In ancient Rome, both men and women wore specific underwear:

• Romans:
  • Subliga Culump: Linen pants resembling modern bikini bottoms [07:31].
  • Strophium: A bandeau top similar to a modern bikini for women, also worn in bathhouses [07:31].

Vikings:
Viking underwear evolved from simple linen braids to protect the body under layers of leather and armor, highlighting the practical aspects of their garments [07:31].

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Underwear in the Middle Ages

Uniformity Across Genders:
During the Middle Ages, both men and women wore similar basic undergarments:

• Men: Shirts as underwear and linen trousers (braids).
• Women: Smocks, shifts, or chemises served as the primary underwear, without trousers, relying on nudity below the waist for modesty [08:58].

Medieval Bras:
Recent archaeological finds, such as fragments from Lengberg Castle in Austria, suggest that women may have worn early bra-like garments in the 15th century. These garments provided breast support without the complexity of modern bras [10:31].

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The Tudor Period and Codpieces

Codpieces as Underwear:
Codpieces, worn during the 15th and 16th centuries, are classified as underwear due to their initial practical purpose of covering the crotch and protecting the outer garments. Over time, they became more elaborate and phallic, primarily as a fashion statement among elite men [13:15].

Henry VIII's Codpieces:
While codpieces were popularized during the Tudor period, notable figures like Henry VIII also sported them, despite their initial practical design, leading to both fashion innovation and ridicule [15:02].

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Evolution of Daily Underwear Practices

Frequency of Changing Underwear:
In the Tudor period, the frequency of changing underwear varied by social status:

• High Status Individuals: Such as Elizabeth I, changed their linen shifts several times a day for hygiene and social engagements [15:18].
• Common Folk: Typically changed their shifts daily, often maintaining multiple shifts to alternate between laundering and wearing [15:18].

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Drawers and Bloomers

Drawers:
Early drawers for women were crotchless linen tubes designed to prevent chafing and maintain modesty. These garments were rare until the 19th century, when they became more common but still lacked full coverage [17:37].

Bloomers:
Originating as outerwear in the late 19th century, bloomers evolved into practical underwear designed for activities like cycling, providing coverage and modesty while allowing movement [17:37].

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Corsets: Evolution and Misconceptions

History of Corsets:
Corsets originated in the 16th century, initially called "bodies," evolving through "stays" in the 18th century to the modern corset in the 19th century. The introduction of baleen (whalebone) allowed for the structured shaping of garments, significantly influencing women's silhouettes [19:44].

Comfort and Functionality:
Contrary to popular belief, Dr. Dyer argues that corsets were not inherently uncomfortable. They provided support and improved posture, functioning as a "big hug" rather than a torture device [22:06].

Cultural Depictions:
The negative portrayal of corsets is largely attributed to 19th-century medical opinions and Hollywood's symbolic use of corsets to represent the restrictions on women’s lives [22:06].

Men and Corsets:
Interestingly, men also wore corsets in the early 19th century to achieve fashionable silhouettes, a practice that diminished as fashion trends evolved [25:50].

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Petticoats and Skirt Structures

Petticoats:
Originally a visible part of an outfit in the Middle Ages, petticoats transitioned to being an underskirt by the end of the 18th century. They evolved into structured support garments through heavy starching and cording, contributing to the bell-shaped silhouettes of the time [26:57].

Wide Skirts Myths:
Dr. Dyer debunks the myth that historical wide skirts were impractical by explaining the engineering behind garments like panniers, crinolines, and bustles. These skirts were designed to be collapsible and flexible, allowing ease of movement despite their apparent size [28:47].

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Key Innovations in Underwear History

1. Baleen (Whalebone): Enabled the structured design of corsets.
2. Elastic (19th Century): Revolutionized the fit and comfort of underwear.
3. Lycra (1950s): Further enhanced the elasticity and functionality of garments.
4. Technological Textiles: Modern advancements continue to influence underwear design, focusing on sweat-wicking and athletic performance [35:52].

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Language and Terminology

Origin of "Knickers":
The term "knickers" emerged in 1859 as a shortened form of "knickerbockers," a term for baggy trousers worn by men. It became a common nickname and has persisted in modern usage [31:12].

Invention of Y Fronts:
Y fronts were introduced in the 1930s by Arthur Niebler as an innovative solution to the codpiece's functional gaps. This design became immensely popular, revolutionizing men's underwear [31:36].

Creation of the G-String:
The G-string was invented in the 1970s by Austrian-American designer Rusli Gernrich. It emerged as a response to California's legislation against nude sunbathing, intending to maximize skin exposure while complying with the law [32:21].

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Broader Societal Implications

Reflection of Societal Trends:
Underwear history mirrors broader societal changes in beauty standards, hygiene practices, and technological advancements. Shifts in underwear design reflect evolving notions of attractiveness, cleanliness, and material innovation [34:40].

Misconceptions Challenged:
Dr. Dyer challenges common misconceptions, emphasizing that historical underwear was often innovative and purpose-driven rather than impractical or solely ornamental. Reenactments and modern recreations highlight the functionality and engineering behind these garments [36:55].

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Conclusion

Dr. Serena Dyer concludes that underwear has always been a blend of protection, hygiene, modesty, and fashion. Understanding its history provides insight into societal values, technological progress, and cultural norms across different eras. The evolution of underwear is a testament to human ingenuity in adapting clothing to meet changing needs and aesthetic preferences.

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. Serena Dyer [03:04]: "There's this interesting complication around what we are defining as underwear."
• Dr. Serena Dyer [04:51]: "The main difference for men though is that they might wear those braids… women didn't wear anything like that."
• Dr. Serena Dyer [22:06]: "They're like a big hug in a garment. They're incredibly good."
• Dr. Serena Dyer [24:47]: "There is absolutely a fashion trend that's seeing the return of the corset, but more as outerwear than as underwear."
• Dr. Serena Dyer [36:55]: "Most historical underwear was really clever and was for a purpose and fulfilled that purpose really well."

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Further Resources

For more in-depth exploration of historical fashion and expert insights, visit HistoryExtra.com.

Transcript

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[David Musgrove]

Today we are talking about the history of underwear in the latest in our Everything youg Want to Know episodes. And I'm delighted to be joined by an expert on that topic, Dr. Serena Dyer. Hi, how are you?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Hi Dave. I'm really well, thank you for having me.

[David Musgrove]

Great. It's good to have you here. Let's go to the start of the conversation. Right at the top. From hinafold on X. When did people start wearing underwear?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

So this is a more complicated question than it might seem, because it really depends on what we define as underwear. Because throughout history, there's been this backwards and forwards between particular garments being underwear or being outerwear. And things like loincloths, which people have worn for thousands of years. We might now think of them as underwear because they resemble knickers pants. But actually, at the time, they were often the only things that people were wearing. So they're not under anything. They are just people's clothing. So I think there's this interesting complication there around what we are defining as underwear. And then again, if we think really far back to prehistory and colder climates, you've got people wearing lots of layers of animal skins and furs. Well, are the lowest, most close to the skin layers there, underwear? So how are we sort of defining that? And things like, you know, Celtic braids as well, worn by Celtic and Germanic tribes, transformed, again, from underwear to outerwear, from outerwear to underwear, backwards and forwards. So there's this kind of flexibility about what it is. So I can't give you a hard answer to that. It really depends on how you define it.

[David Musgrove]

You mentioned Celtic braes there. What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

So they are essentially linen, what we would call trousers that Celtic and Germanic people would wear underneath their kind of layers of animal skins and other garments. So they are sort of a piece of underwear, but they're also sort of no different to a pair of trousers that you might wear under a tunic. So, again, that kind of blurred line.

[David Musgrove]

Well, this next question might sort of help us to understand a little bit more. So it's from Pamela Buffington Irick, and Pamela asks, why did people start wearing underwear? And she clarifies that point by saying, did modesty suddenly strike or was it awareness of need?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Oh, well, I think the idea of modesty is actually really important to how we get this really clear distinction of underwear versus outerwear. But to rewind from that for a second, I think that there's three key reasons why people started wearing underwear. So the first is incredibly practical. It's protection. So if you're wearing things like armor, then it acts as a protective layer between the body and, for example, metal armor. It's protecting your body from the armor. It's also protecting the armor from your body from, you know, sweat from oils, from that sort of thing that might wear down the armor. So there's that kind of protection level. I think one of the most important reasons, though, is hygiene. So we're often used to people talking about this myth that people in the past didn't wash. And we know that, yes, they did wash, just in different ways. But actually underwear was an important part of how people managed their bodily hygiene. So some of the earliest forms of underwear are made from linen, and they're things like smocks and shirts and shifts. So just a simple T shaped garment that was worn closest to the skin. And its main purpose was really wicking the sweat away from the body so the garment could then be washed and laundered. And it was that garment that was changed to keep the body clean rather than necessarily the entire outfit. So again, it's performing that protective function between the outer garments and the body, but it's there for hygiene. But to return to Pamela's point about modesty, I think that this really connects to the dawn of civilization and that brought with it ideas about fashion and about modesty and about society and cultural values really impacting how you think about how you're dressed in your body. So we have these socially constructed ideas of morality which overlap with things like social hierarchies and class structures. So there then becomes this structure through which people kind of are then expected to wear underwear. It becomes a sign of your involvement in civilization. To be a civilized person, you must wear underwear. So it sort of becomes culturally significant rather than necessarily to do with any innate sense of morality.

[David Musgrove]

There's a couple of really popular questions on Google which might lead us into an interesting place. So people are really interested to know what we know about underwear in the classical world, and they're also very interested to know whether Vikings wore underwear. Is there anything you can add to that to help us understand those two particular topics?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Absolutely. I mean, I think in both cases it does connect back to the idea of the dawn of civilization and the kind of construction of a culture and a society. And the classical world is really where we start to see this idea of underwear solidify. We start to see people writing about underwear, so we start to get terminology associated with underwear and people starting to define that split between their underwear and their outerwear. So Romans, for example, wore a garment called a subliga culum, which is essentially pants. It is knickers. They look a lot like a modern bikini bottom. They've sort of got little ties at the side. It's just that they're made from Linen rather than lycra. And then women would wear something called a strophium, which is essentially a sort of a bandeau top, again made from linen. So essentially it's very much like a modern bikini. And these were worn as underwear, but they were also worn in bath houses, places where you wouldn't want to wear, you know, all of your togas and all of your sort of extra robes. And for Vikings similarly, we're seeing evolutions of those simple linen braid type, sort of trouser like garments that go under everything else. And I think particularly for the Vikings, it is often about protecting the body from all those layers of armor, you know, leather armor, et cetera, that they're wearing.

[David Musgrove]

Let's move on to the Middle Ages, to the medieval period. Did men and women both wear the same sort of underwear in the Middle Ages?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Yes. So throughout the Middle Ages, all the way through to the 19th century actually, both men and women have the same basic garment as underwear as you. It's just that its terminology changes. So for men that's a shirt. So shirts are underwear historically for men and for women that is a smock, a shift, a chemise, the terminology for its shifts, and this is very simply a T shaped linen garment. So performing that hygiene purpose that we talked about earlier and that is worn for both men and women. The main difference for men though is that they might wear those braids that I mentioned earlier, those linen trousers, but women didn't wear anything like that. They wore nothing that could be considered close to knickers at this time, which I think a lot of people find shocking that women were just wearing this sort of loose dress like garment underneath other dress like garments and there's no protection there. Having worn recreations of similar garments, I can say it's actually quite convenient. It's actually quite good to just essentially be able to squat and go when you need to, you know, go to the toilet. There's no fiddling around with layers there, so it's weirdly practical. The only kind of addition there for women is actually how they dealt with their menstrual cycles, which is a slightly unknown thing. We have found evidence of nappy type strips of linen, that sort of thing that you would suspend from a belt that could be worn during that period. But that's the only time that women are really wearing anything between their legs.

[David Musgrove]

Let's move on to the next question because this is one that I do know the answer to and it because we talked about it in Beef History magazine some years ago and It's a search term. Is it true that we have evidence of medieval bras?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Yes, absolutely. So as you say, this is a relatively recent discovery. Actually. Fashion historians had thought that it was just the cut of women's kirtles, which is the name for the sort of underdress for women in the medieval period that was supporting their breasts, until we had this discovery at Lengberg Castle in Austria in the last sort of decade or so. And they found nearly 3,000 pieces of medieval textiles dating to the 15th century, including two bra like garments. And these had kind of shaped cups for the breasts that would support them. What's left of those garments now makes them look like bras. But they would have been a fragment. What's left now is a fragment of a much larger garment that was actually more like a sort of an underdress with these built in breast supports. So it's sort of. It's a bra like garment rather than necessarily actually resembling a modern bra. And I do know some reenactors that have recreated the Lengberg bra and have found that it is incredibly well engineered. It works really well. It gives excellent support even for a larger bust. So it's an incredibly clever piece of engineering to be able to create that support with literally just segments of linen. There's no underwires, there's no boning, there's nothing like that. It's just the cut of the fabric. So it's a really clever garment.

[David Musgrove]

Now, that was an archaeological find. Is there any documentary evidence at all that talks about that sort of garment that might make us understand whether it was a more widespread than just something that was in Lengsburg Castle?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

There is very little documentary evidence. And what there is, it's hard, and this is an issue throughout fashion history. It's hard to piece together the physical remnants of garments with the terminology and the writing about them, because we're sort of making assumptions that the two connect together until you get something that says, ah, here is a picture of a bra and this is a nice label for it. And that's one of the key things that fashion historians are debating all the time, is what do we call things? Are we calling things the right things? Have we kind of made up these terms in the 19th and 20th century? And they're not what people called them in the past? So it's sort of a tricky puzzle piece to put that together.

[David Musgrove]

Right. The next question now, I'm not sure whether we should be talking about this in this conversation, because it's cod pieces, you can tell us, are cod pieces technically underwear or not? We're talking about the Tudor period here specifically, or do they predate that?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

They were worn through the 15th and 16th centuries, sort of just before the Tudor period, and then through the Tudor period and sort of fell out of use in the 1590s, the very end of the Tudor period. So they really are synonymous with the Tudors. So, yes, I would say that cob pieces are a piece of underwear. I mean, as we've established, it's a really blurry line, but I think we can call them that. And the reason why I think that is because they are originally a practical garment. So the purpose of the cob piece is essentially to hide the join in the fabric that we've now called the fly in hose. So the contemporary term for essentially trousers. So they start with a really, really practical purpose. And early cob pieces are really simple sort of triangles of fabric. There's nothing phallic about the early cod piece. It is literally just a protective thing. And we see working men wearing examples. It's just a widespread, normal piece of clothing. But as with a lot of garments, this sort of evolved into a site where particularly elite men could show off their fashionability, could sort of compete with each other. And that's when we get the growth of very phallic cod pieces. And something that I find particularly amusing is the cod pieces that are made to go with armor, because there's no practical purpose for that. Surely it's better to have it flat and smooth to protect the body. But no, we get cob pieces in armor mimicking fashions as steel penises, essentially. But even men in the 16th century were mocking other men for being part of this fashion trend. It wasn't something that everybody was freely doing. It was an extreme. And people were very, very happy to make fun of people that did take it to that extreme.

[David Musgrove]

But not Henry viii. I don't suppose you wouldn't be making fun of his codpiece?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Not if you wanted to keep your head. No.

[David Musgrove]

Let's stick with the Tudor period. And you've kind of alluded to this answer earlier on, I think, but is it true that in the Tudor period, people change their underwear several times a day?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Not necessarily several times a day, but definitely frequently. And it really depends where you sit on the social spectrum. So if you're Elizabeth I, if you are holding court and going to multiple court events through the day, then, yes, you might want to change your linen shift several times a day to keep hygiene up so that you keep smelling nice while you're making all of these important diplomatic meetings. But for your average person, you're probably changing it every day. So it's the one garment where even if you're very poor and you only have one outfit, essentially you might have more than one shift so that you can have one that you're laundering and one that you're wearing. So it is the most frequently changed garment, but the patterns of how frequently will really depend on where you sit on that social spectrum. Okay, this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify. Home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going Cha Ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. Hablas espanolic. Com Del No. If you've heard that sound from Babbel before, I bet you do. Babbel is the science backed language learning app that actually works with quick 10 minute lessons. Handcrafted by over 200 language experts, Babbel gets you on your way to speaking a new language in just a few weeks with over 16 million subscriptions sold and a 20 day money back guarantee. Just start speaking another language with Babbel right now. Up to 55% off your Babbel [e-mail] Spotifypodcast spelled B a dashboardcast. Rules and restrictions may apply.

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[David Musgrove]

What were drawers and when did people start wearing them and why?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

So drawers are essentially the ancestor of knickers for women. So we know for men that they have braids, but women did not generally throughout most of history. So early drawers are very literally just two tubes of linen that are tied together at the waist. So again, you don't have any crotch. There's no sort of protection there. It is just about the legs. And there's two reasons for this. So the first is a very practical one that I'm sure many women that want to wear dresses in the summer will be familiar with and that is preventing your thighs from rubbing together. It's preventing that chafing. But it is also about modesty. So if your skirts are sort of blown up in the breeze, or you're climbing over a stile, or you're sort of doing practical things, that you're retaining that sense of modesty that men don't get a glimpse of your knees or a glimpse of your thighs. But as I say, these were incredibly unhelpful in terms of what we use knickers for today. They fill all the places that knickers don't fill today. And the area that's blank is where we would have knickers. There are some examples of these as early as the 16th century, but that is incredibly rare. And most women were probably not wearing them. So they existed, but very, very rare. They became really popular from the start of the 19th century, and they retained that crotchlessness through most of the 19th century. And then we start to see bloomers, rather than drawers, which do have a crotch, becoming a piece of underwear at the very end of the 19th century, the start of the 20th century. But to come back to that point about that flip flopping between underwear and outerwear, bloomers had actually started as a piece of outerwear popularized by Amelia Bloomer, so that women could get involved in things like cycling while retaining their modesty. So there's that, that kind of backwards and forwards ness between under and outerwear again.

[David Musgrove]

So we've got the definition of drawers, we've got the definition of bloomers. Let's move on to another topic, which I know that you're very interested in. Anna J. Morrie wants to know, when did corsets start being worn?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Please do feel free to cut me off if I just go off on a rant about this one, because I have a lot of feelings. So corsets, as we might now recognize them, started really being worn in the 16th century. They just weren't called corsets. So they've gone through this evolution of in the 16th century being called bodies, in the 18th century being called stays. And in the 19th century, they become corsets. And this is partly connected to how they're made and the function that they have within garments as kind of a supportive garment. As time goes on, the main thing that causes the introduction of the corset is baleen. So if you think back to those earlier 16th century gown styles for women, they have very flat fronts. You know, there is something going on there. There is supportiveness happening there, but that's created by these bundles of what's known as bents, which is essentially dried Grasses, which are all kind of tied up and stuffed in the front of gowns to create a sort of a soft stiffness down the front of the gown. But that wasn't far enough for women in the 16th century. They wanted something more rigid, more conical, that's more like sartorial engineering. And that's really enabled to happen because of the import of baleen. So baleen is what people nowadays might more commonly known as whale bone. It's nothing to do with bones. There is nothing bone like about it. It's far more like fingernail. And it's really flexible and it molds to the body. But it also allowed 16th and 17th century tailors to create these fantastically structured garments. And they evolved in the 18th century as kind of changing silhouettes took hold into a slightly more rounded shape with stays. And then in the 19th century we get the far more hourglass corset shape. And it is really the introduction of the corset and of baleen that allows for that speeding up really in the change of fashionable silhouettes that happens from the 16th century through to the 19th century. And I've really put that all down to the corset.

[David Musgrove]

I think I'm right in saying that you have made and worn corsets. How uncomfortable were corsets to wear?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

They are not uncomfortable at all. I would say that saying that all corsets are these horrible torture devices for women is like saying that all shoes are horrible torture devices for women based on just looking at some incredibly high heeled shoes. They're not all like that. That is an extreme of the spectrum that yes, okay, it did exist, but it's a tiny proportion. And we should not judge all corsets based on that. They are really excellent at giving back support and giving you sort of that encouragement to hold yourself with a good posture. And I do colleagues that have vade recreations that then wear corsets for things like horse riding. Because you need to hold that structure and it just gives you that support and that posture that you need for that kind of activity. And I think that we have sort of assumed that if you're being held in place, then you must be uncomfortable. But it's not like that at all. It is. It's like a big. A big hug in a garment. They're incredibly good. And I think the kind of villainization of the corset comes from primarily 19th century doctors who couldn't work out what was going wrong with women's bodies, why they were having all of these medical problems. And it was sort of easier to blame silly women for wearing a corset than to actually find a medical answer to those things. And many of those illnesses that we now know have completely different medical solutions to diagnosis of were all blamed in the late 19th century on the corset. And that's really the origin of where that sort of horror story of these silly women contorting their bodies with corsets comes from. And of course, Hollywood has been one of the other primary culprits for popularizing this idea of the restrictive corset. But in that context, it sort of. It serves a purpose because it's actually symbolic of the restrictions that were placed on women's lives in the past. So I think I can forgive period drama makers for using that, because it does. It serves a narrative purpose. But it has perpetuated this idea of silly women in the past wearing corsets when they weren't that at all. They were supportive. They helped with posture. They were actually quite comfortable. We have some corsets that are just corded, that don't have any boning at all. They're just soft corded shapes that, like the Lengberg bra, just support you through layers of linen. And I would say are actually far more comfortable than a modern underwired bra.

[David Musgrove]

Is there kind of a move now to bring back corsets? Do you advocate for corsets to be worn?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

I'm not sure that I go so far as to say that I'd advocate for them. I think women have lots of options these days, and different women will experience their bodies differently. And some women will find corsets the correct thing for them. Other women will not. But there is absolutely a fashion trend that's seeing the return of the corset, but more as outerwear than as underwear. So we've really seen things like the Bridgerton effect. We've seen people like Taylor Swift popularizing corsets in her stage costumes, and that really has popularized the sort of cottage core corset, Bridgerton core corset, Regency core corset amongst young women today. But that really is an aesthetic garment. It is more about that sort of aesthetic nostalgia for historic fashion and connects into broader trends around what's known as history bounding. So people that will wear modern garments, but that are inspired by historical garments as a kind of a fandom for fashion history.

[David Musgrove]

Is it true that men wore corsets in the 19th century?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Absolutely. So, again, this is one of those fun, ironic things where men at the end of the 19th century are saying, Aren't women stupid for wearing corsets? But 70 years earlier, they had been doing just that. So in the 1820s, 1830s, the fashionable silhouette for men was to be incredibly hourglass, to have very wide shoulders, a very narrow waist, and then wider hips. And there are two ways you can create that. You can create it through padding and you can create it through corsetry, because very few men naturally have that silhouette. So men are absolutely wearing corsets in this period and they are about bringing in the waist. So unlike most women's corsetry, which kind of isn't for men, it actually is. And we know that lots of high profile men in the 1820s and 1830s wearing these, including King George IV. Although given what we know about his diet, I think that he would have really needed that in order to create that fashionable silhouette.

[David Musgrove]

Right, let's move on from corsets. Petticoats. Talk about petticoats for a moment. When and where were petticoats worn?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

The word comes from the Middle Ages, and it is a combination of petty for small and coat, which actually meant a sort of a long, loose gown. So it's a small gown. So essentially they mean the gown that's closest to the skin. And that might be the kind of just the bottom half sometimes, but this is yet again, one of those garments that flip flops between outerwear and underwear. So until the very end of the 18th century, petticoats generally were visible. So if listeners are familiar with the Georgian style, what Queen Charlotte in Bridgerton is often seen wearing. So a dress that's open at the front of the skirt, then that underskirt that you're seeing underneath, to 18th century people, they would have known Matt as a petticoat. And it isn't until the very end of the 18th century and the introduction of what was known as the round gown, that is a gown that goes all the way around the body, that doesn't have that open split at the front that we see that petticoat transform into being underwear. And so they kind of acted as a part of the general outfit until that point. And then they transition to being this underskirt. And at that point they really also transition into being supportive garments. So in the 1820s and 1830s, petticoats are heavily corded and they're also heavily starched, like really could stand up by themselves, levels of starch. And that's all about kind of creating that bell shaped conical silhouette that that kind of evolves into. So they've again transitioned from outerwear to underwear to structured support garment.

[David Musgrove]

Okay, well, that leads nicely onto the next question, which is, is it true that women wore skirts so wide that they couldn't get through doors?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

They were that wide, but they could get through doors. So again, this is one of those myths, like with the corset. People think of corsets as being super rigid, but they're not. Similarly with garments like farthingales in the 16th century, or panniers in the 18th century, or crinolines and bustles in the 20th century. Yes, they're sort of hooped garments that are creating that silhouette, but those hoops are flexible and malleable, and you can lift them up and they concertina and collapse on themselves. Farthingales in the 16th century were actually stiffened again with bents, with those bundles of dried grass. So not solid at all. Very lightweight, very flexible and malleable. Panniers in the 18th century, which is mainly where this myth comes from. And the very, very wide skirts that we see in the middle of the century. And yes, the very, very wide court ones would have been extremely wide. But funnily enough, do you know what, doors at court are also extremely wide. But the space and the garments kind of work together. But for what people were wearing every day, for panniers, they literally collapse up. They're like two little buckets on either hip and they just collapse up. If you want to get through a small space, it's very clever. Similarly with crinolines in the 19th century. So those big bell shaped skirts, they squish really easily. Normally the hoops are made from spring steel, which literally springs back into shape. So just squish it into whatever shape you want to. And people often ask how people would sit down in a bustle thinking that it's this sort of solid contraption on the back of a woman. Again, it just collapses. You just sit down and it all kind of collapses up behind and then it pops back down again. Then you sit down. So I think that so many of these misconceptions actually come from a devaluation of the engineering abilities of people making fashion in the past. These are engineered garments. They are thought about with comfort and practicality and how people will take up space in mind. And it's just when we sort of disconnect that and just look at a picture of that garment without really thinking about, well, how does it move, how does it function, how does it make that we kind of come to these incorrect conclusions.

[David Musgrove]

Let's do a couple of hopefully quite quick short ones before we get to some wider cultural questions. Where did the word knickers come from? Asks Arms show Tracker from X. Knickers.

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

The term first appears in 1859 and it was used in England to describe essentially a shortened version of drawers. But it comes from the word knickerbockers, which were the baggy trousers worn by men. So it's sort of a nickname, a slightly mocking nickname that stuck and has been with us ever since.

[David Musgrove]

Excellent. When were Y fronts invented?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

So Y fronts were invented in the 1930s by a guy called Arthur Niebler, who was an apparel engineer. And he was essentially trying to solve the same issues as the cod piece of how do you kind of create a way to not have this baggy gap at the fly area? So his invention was this sort of overlapping Y shaped fastening that was incredibly popular. It was a huge success. I think when it first came to the UK in the late 1930s, it was selling something like 3,000 garments a week. So it really rocketed and became a really important innovation for men's fashion.

[David Musgrove]

Okay, so if you're wearing Y fronts today, you're basically wearing an innovation of a codpiece.

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[David Musgrove]

All right. Okay. John Cadwallader on X wants to know who invented the G string.

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

Okay, so the G string was invented by an Austrian born American fashion designer called Rusli Gernrich. And it was created in the 1970s in response to California legislation which outlawed nude sunbathing. So the whole point was to not be nude, but to have as much of your flesh on show for tanning. So again, is swimwear underwear, is it outerwear? It's one of those things that sits on that kind of strange liminal space between the two. But the G of the G string, there's a little bit of uncertainty about where that comes from. You know, Gurnrich, is it after that?

[David Musgrove]

Now, thinking more broadly, again, popular search term, generally speaking, has underwear been more about concealing, shaping or supporting the body? And you've talked about this a fair bit already, but maybe you can give us a sort of a summation of the answer.

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

I don't think that those three can be separated. They all interlink. So if we think about the importance of proportion in the past, not smallness. So as we've said with corsets, not about looking smaller, it's all about proportion. Then you're adding things like padding and corsetry to create that. So that's sort of shaping the body, but it's also concealing it. Because in the past you don't turn to things like dieting and plastic surgery to change your physical body underneath. You turn to garments. So you're both supporting and concealing at the same time and shaping the body. So it's sort of all those things together. And I also think that an important thing to pick up here is the mental comfort that comes from concealing your physical body. So while you're shaping the body that you present to the world through these garments, you're kind of hiding your physical body. But you know that the body that other people are going to see fits the beauty standards of the time without having to do anything to it. So it really is all those sorts of elements all slot together into how underwear has functioned throughout history.

[David Musgrove]

And as someone who's studied this and studied fashion generally, do you have any thoughts on what changes in underwear, the changes we've talked about tell us about broader trends in society, economy, culture.

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

I think that there's three key areas really that underwear can tell us about. So first one is beauty standards. So how we thought about what is attractive, what we're prioritizing, and how we present our bodies to the world. And I think if you sort of line up a chronology of silhouettes through time, that that really emphasizes that there has never been a sort of a single attractive body type. It's always changed. The second, I think is hygiene practices and how people go around caring for their bodies on a day to day basis. As we've said, the shift slash, smock shirt has been the fundamental garment throughout time that it really does connect to hygiene. And then the last, as you said, is really technology and innovation and trade and materials and those new things coming on the market have really shaped how we've then shaped underwear. Because you kind of, you want to be part of the latest in innovation, the latest trend. So I think they sum up the kind of three key areas where we can kind of tell more about society through underwear.

[David Musgrove]

Excellent. And if I had to pin you down on what were sort of the key developments, the key innovations in underwear technology or fabric, what would you identify?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

I think there's so many of them throughout history. I think we've touched on baleen, but there's also the introduction of elastic in the 19th century. So sort of rubberized thread, essentially an elycra in the 1950s. So if you think about women's knickers, they often have a bow on the front and that's a hangover from all underwear prior to the introduction of elastic and lycra requiring a drawstring. So you'd have a little bow at the front. So it's just a hangover from that anyway. So I think that they've really been the kind of the key innovations, and we're continuing to see innovations, you know, in textile technologies that look at fabrics that can wick sweat away from the body better, that are better for kind of sports underwear. There's kind of technological textiles. So I think we'll continue to see that connection between technological innovation and underwear as we move forward as well.

[David Musgrove]

Fantastic. Well, to wrap up, you've already covered some of these, but I wonder if there are any more you might identify. Popular search term is what are the biggest misconceptions that exist about historical underwear?

[Dr. Serena Dyer]

I think it is mainly that people think often that people in the past were silly and how could they possibly wear these garments? And I think that actually the work that I do with recreative practice and remaking these garments and putting them on my body is really centered on trying to challenge those misconceptions and to show that actually they're clever, they're innovative, they're pieces of engineering. So I don't so much have a single pinpointed answer for this. I think we've touched on many throughout this conversation, but more just that general sense of when we look at fashions in the past, they seem alien, they seem other, they're different to what we do. But that doesn't mean that we're right and we've evolved to better forms of garment. We've just evolved to different ones because we've had those technological innovations. So that I think would be my main takeaway is actually most historical underwear was really clever and was for a purpose and fulfilled that purpose really well. And if it didn't, people wouldn't have worn those garments for literally centuries. That was Dr. Serena Dyer, Associate professor of Fashion History at De Montfort University. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.