Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (3:04)

I hope today that we can find out more about this extraordinary moment in history and perhaps also go behind the scenes of the Uprising podcast. But before we dive in, would you both mind introducing yourselves?

Dr. Jonathan Healey (3:17)

I'm Jonathan Healey. I was one of the expert contributors on the podcast and I've written a couple of books about the 17th century and the English Civil War. And I'm a 17th century historian.

Rebecca Riddell (3:26)

And I'm Rebecca O'.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (3:27)

Deal.

Rebecca Riddell (3:27)

I'm a historian of the 17th century and I hosted and produced the podcast series.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (3:33)

It's wonderful to have you both on today. This series focuses on this major moment in our history. Why do you think this is a period that's worth talking about today? Why make this series now?

Rebecca Riddell (3:44)

Well, for me personally, I've always been interested in the Civil wars and I always think that there's this almost myth that it's too complicated to tackle. Like it is complicated, but I feel like sometimes we need to lean into the complicated nature of the Civil Wars. And also I personally wanted to put the English Civil wars in the context of the conflict that was going on in Scotland and Ireland, and also to bring in Wales role as well, because I think it's quite important to see it as a war of three kingdoms, as it's come to be known, and four countries.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (4:14)

Yeah, I mean, it's a topic which has sort of been perennially interesting, hasn't it? I mean, you know, in the 19th century, it was one of the centuries events in British history. And you know, maybe recently, in the last sort of 30, 40, maybe even more years, it's kind of become a bit less of our cultural DNA than say the Tudors have or the Second World War. So I think it's really good to kind of bring this stuff back because it is so important to the development of the British constitution, it's so important to the development of British society. And of course, as Rebecca, you say it's about the relationship between those three kingdoms, as they were at this point most of the time, and how those relationships develop over time and how that relationship has then developed into the modern world.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (4:57)

To go to your point, Rebecca, I know personally, I have found this an incredibly complex topic to get my teeth sunk into. I think in general, as you said, there's so much going on in different places and there's loads of terminology floating around here. Could you clarify for us what terminology should we even be using when we're talking about this?

Rebecca Riddell (5:16)

Well, I mentioned the phrase the wars of the Three Kingdoms and I think that encompasses what we are doing in this podcast. We're telling the story of those three separate kingdoms and Wales as well, which fell under the jurisdiction of England, but it was a distinct country in and of itself. Cornwall to an extent as well. But I think that is a phrase that's been used a lot and we have had books that cover the wars of the Three Kingdoms. But I just thought in popular imagination it's not a term that's as buzzy as the English Civil wars, for example. And I think personally Jonathan might disagree, but I think we need to reframe the narrative in popular imagination, historians and fans of the period know this already, but in popular imagination, I think seeing that wider context is really important. And what I would say as well is that it is very, very complicated. But I think all moments of revolution and upheaval are complicated. But sometimes they have slogans that make them easy to, to remember and understand. So like the French Revolution, for example, we have let them eat cake. I mean, did you say that? No, but that kind of explains what happened in a kind of. For popular imagination, we don't really have that for the Civil Wars. So John, over to you.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (6:22)

Well, I mean there's lots of great kind of phrases which if you end up teaching the period, you will know them. I mean, you know, we are not a mere mercenary army as the New Model army said in 1647 or one of my favourite, you know, constitutions are but dross and dung in the face of Christ, which is what Oliver Cromwell says. So there are these kind of phrases, but you're right, they don't quite have the same sort of popularity kind of cut through as things like let them eat cake, let them eat brioche, I think was the original version on the question of what's it all. I think it's such an interesting question and I kind of often slightly mischievously say, well, you know, it shouldn't be called the War of the Three Kingdoms because of course that implies that they're all kingdoms, which of course they weren't for part of the period. I mean, it is really important to see this as an, I'm going to use one of my favourite words, archipelagic. It's about the whole archipelago and about how they relate to each other and how leadership in England doesn't necessarily translate to good rule in Scotland and Ireland and the kind of connections, but also the frictions between those very different countries and very different kingdoms for some of the period is part of the dynamic. And it's really important to capture that because it isn't just the English Civil War. And I think that's the very, very important point that the podcast is making.

Rebecca Riddell (7:31)

We do have this wider conflict, but also it's really important to remember the distinctiveness of the conflict that's going on in the individual spaces and kingdoms, because we also don't want to distract from the unique shape that this conflict forms in the different areas as well.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (7:48)

Yeah. And I suppose that probably doesn't help with the kind of slightly bewilderingness of it, because we talked about terminology. And one of the things that you kind of need to get your head around a little bit, at least, is the different religious groups, for example, in this period. And you've got Presbyterians, you've got Independents, you've got Quakers, you've got Anglicans. Can we use the phrase Anglicans? And it all just balloons and becomes very, very complicated. It's quite hard to navigate. And I think actually sort of understanding that that is quite distant from our own world and it's quite difficult to get our heads around is of podcasts like this help as a guide to those complexities.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (8:22)

I'm very curious that if you were to give a slogan, a catchphrase to this, what would you pick?

Dr. Jonathan Healey (8:28)

I quite like dross and done. We could just call it dross and done.

Rebecca Riddell (8:33)

I don't know. I like the more dramatic. I think I'd be like battles, war and devastation.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (8:39)

There is one phrase which is quite famous from the Civil War period. I mean, there are things that historians know. I mean, I always think about Thomas Rainbow at the Putney Debates. The poorest historians, he that hath a life in England, has as much of a life as the richest. He. I've probably mangled that. So there are various kind of phrases which get used there. And there's also quite a lot of mythology about the Civil War. I mean, there's the Royal Oak. You know, we're all very familiar with the pubs that we see. The Royal Oak is one of the biggest, most common names for English boozers, I think probably still is. And things like Humpty Dumpty, which is supposed to come from a Civil War piece of artillery kit, or being sent to Coventry. So there's lots of kind of things which sort of do go back to the Civil War, which are part of our culture. You know, it said today that you're either still a roundhead or a cavalier. I'm not sure that's true, but yeah, it's still there.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (9:26)

Hopefully in this episode we can help start to untangle some of this history for our listeners and also encourage them to go and listen to Uprising and find out even more. But to help us situate ourselves, could you perhaps either together between you or individually, share five moments that you think made this particular moment in history?

Rebecca Riddell (9:48)

Can I do the first one?

Dr. Jonathan Healey (9:49)

Yeah, go on.

Rebecca Riddell (9:50)

To re. Alternate.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (9:51)

Yeah, go on.

Rebecca Riddell (9:51)

So I would say the first thing. Obviously there's lots of things bubbling under the surface anyway, but the first moment where things really do start to kick off is this idea that a woman called Jenny Geddes, who may or may not have existed, we go into this in the podcast, resisted listening to the Book of Common Prayer being read out in Scotland in Edinburgh. And she did this by throwing a chair at the person that was reading it out. And that was a moment that sparked, supposedly, although there was lots of stuff going on anyway, sparked the bishops wars in Scotland, which was the first military and violent resistance to Charles I's reign in this period. So that's my number one, and it's.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (10:27)

A great one because it's not only about religion and it shows the differences between England and Scotland. So you've got an English, let's say Anglican. I don't particularly like the use of that term at this point, but let's use it because it kind of is sort of helpful in some ways. You've got an English Anglican king who's trying to impose a bishop dominated church on Scotland. And in Scotland there's a lot more cynicism about the importance of bishops. And it's then resisted by this popular uprising in Scotland, which then leads to Scottish people en masse signing this thing called the Scottish National Covenant. And one thing that's great about that moment, I think, is it captures this kind of popular dimension to the Civil War. We sort of think of the French Revolution as being largely or at least very, very significantly driven by popular uprising. You know, the storming of the Bastille, for example. We don't always think about the English revolution in the same way or the British revolutions of the 17th century because we are talking about Scotland here. But I don't think that's fair because, you know, moments like Jenny Geddes really kind of emphasizes that it's got elements, really important elements of kind of popular uprising to it. Uprising, that's the name of the podcast, isn't it? Can I have the second one. So the iconic moment is when Charles I went into Parliament to try and arrest the five members. And this was a time where basically, in order to kind of decapitate, not necessarily literally, but maybe literally, eventually the opposition, he tried to go to the House of commons and have five leading opponents or opposition MPs arrested. They'd, of course, fled. And it's the subject of my most recent book, so if you want to read more about it, then there is something out there. It's very, very good price at good book retailers. As I say, it's one of these iconic moments of the Civil War. But actually it's the day after that, I think, is really, really interesting, because the day after Charles I tried to arrest the same members again, he realised they'd gone to the City of London. So instead of going to Westminster, to Parliament, he went into the City of London. And after having lunch with the Sheriff, as you do, he was kind of trundling back in his coach, back to his palace, and someone called Henry Walker ran up to him and threw a pamphlet into his coach. And it was a pamphlet about resisting tyrants. And in that moment, you know, coaches are supposed to be this kind of rarefied space where monarchs and the social elite kind of hide away from the people. And Charles was never someone who was particularly comfortable with dealing one to one with his people. And in that moment, you've got someone coming up to this, as I say, this kind of rarefied environment and then breaching that barrier between monarch and people and doing it to pass in this pamphlet. And, you know, remember, this is a world in which pamphlets are everywhere, the printed word is exploding, the press is going into overdrive, You've even got things like newspapers, very, very strange, very new. And this pamphlet, it's not just that it's what it says, it's about opposing tyrants, it's about the people withdrawing their support from monarchies. And that, for me, is a really, really pivotal moment. And I think it's one of the reasons that Charles pretty soon afterwards fled from London. And then, of course, you've got two capital cities in a way. You've got the one near the King and you've got the original one. And that then develops into the situation where England, at this point, we are talking about England, at this point, falls into civil war.

Rebecca Riddell (13:42)

I'll go for the third one. And so this isn't going to be chronological now, but that's fine. I'm going to jump back and I'm going to point to the Irish Rebellion, as it's known to history of 1641, which was so important for so many ways, absolutely devastating domestically in Ireland. And strangely, that a kind of not middle class, that's not the right term for the early modern period. But this wasn't from the masses going up. This was very much the nobility or the gentry resisting the rule of England to start with, because we haven't had this splintering between parliamentarians and royalists yet. And it's to do with so many different things. The island had been planted in the early 17th century, so there's lots of disgruntlement, for want of a more potent word about rights and things. It erupts into this really devastating rebellion in 1641, where lots of people are harmed and hurt on the Protestant and the Catholic side of things. But what we get and what Professor Jane Olmeyer goes into, lots of fantastic detail in the podcast, are these depositions that Protestants that were affected by the Irish rebellion give their accounts of what has actually happened to them. And these accounts are for posterity. They're used in a judicial way, but they're also used for propaganda. And it really this already existing fear of Catholics, that's happening in England. Charles is married to a Catholic queen, Henrietta Maria, and it turns the temperature up even higher with regards to fears about potential Papism or Catholicism in England. The other thing that happens as a consequence of the Irish rebellion, which I'll just slip in, is that what we see is those Scottish Covenanters that had started the bishops wars in Scotland, you know, a bit of time's gone by. They are then deployed on Charles I's side into Ireland to fight the Catholic resistance. So we see these three kingdoms working in very interesting ways. I'd put that as the second and yours the third, but, yeah, that would be my third one.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (15:42)

So can I go to the end of the Civil War now? I mean, we're kind of passing over the first English Civil War a little bit, which is a bit naughty. But the great narrative historian of the Civil War period, Veronica Wedgwood, said that she didn't want to write about the year 1647 because it was so boring. And I like her writing. I think she's a great writer, I think she's done great things. But she is absolutely wrong about this because 1647, for me, is the most interesting year in English history. The kind of moment that I'm going to pick from this is when the New Model army, which had been victorious in the first Civil War, basically kind of revolted against Parliament. And what happened in 1647 is that Parliament, which was becoming split about what to do with the kingdom between different kind of ideas. Should we be really harsh on the King or should we offer more generous terms? The army was in favour of more generous terms, actually. And what kind of religious settlement should we have? Should it be a kind of very restrictive Presbyterian settlement with no bishops, but also a very, very strong sense of discipline? Or should it be more of a kind of almost like a sort of free for all, where people form their own congregations and develop their own views of religion? And that's what the army were in favour of. And as Parliament tried to kind of control the army and get rid of it without having to pay it too much, the army revolted against Parliament and eventually occupied London. And that then allowed the army to start thinking about what the future constitution would be like. And that's how we end up in Putney, of all places, a small, tiny little sort of village on the River Thames, where members of the army with kind of proto democrats, who we call Levellers, sitting down initially in the church, then in a house, and debating the future of the constitution and how many people should have the vote, you know, all these kind of things, which, of course, became part of the big reform campaign in the 19th century. But a lot of this stu was being discussed in 1647. So that's my second moment, 1647, and I think I'm going to let Rebecca have the final one.

Rebecca Riddell (17:39)

Oh, that's good. So the obvious final one, although I must stress, the Civil wars didn't end at this point. There was a bit of a long tale. But the final moment has to be the execution of Charles I in 1649, which was done without the permission of the Scots or the Irish. I have to stress that. So, I mean, that's the moment that we think about. I think in popular imagination, if you're thinking about the Civil wars, you'll think Cavaliers, roundhead execution. And it's so important because, you know, people were awestruck by what had happened. It was something that was so beyond belief that that could actually happen to a monarch. I don't think anyone was thinking that Charles would be executed, and I don't think anyone was wanting that as a final outcome either. So it's an extraordinary moment in British and Irish history for lots of reasons.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (18:25)

Yeah. And there's a whole kind of set of questions as to when different groups start to decide that actually they can't continue dealing with Charles I, and that he has to be Got rid of somewh, possibly Oliver Cromwell, who certainly in early 1647 had wanted to restore the monarchy with quite a lot of its powers, seems to kind of change his opinion towards the end of that year. And there's loads of kind of debates as to how likely an outcome, Even in late 1648, how likely an outcome the regicide would have been. It's a kind of area of history where things are still being discovered, there are still things being pulled up in the archives which change our view of what that regicide meant, why it happened. So it is a fascinating moment, and you're right, it's a very destabilising one. The King had always been the kind of keystone of the order of society. And if you take that out, then what else is up for grabs? And you start getting people arguing that, you know, men and women should have equal rights and things like that, which is for the 17th century, which is remarkable. And it is partly because this kind of ancient institution, which was supposed to hold everything together, had been pulled down. And if that could be done, then what else could you do?

Rebecca Riddell (19:35)

But also, I think it's really funny that it's during the trial that the person that's advocating, advocating for actually quite progressive ideas, it's Charles. First of all, he doesn't recognise the court, which I think is a masterstroke on his behalf not to do that. But secondly, he says, exactly as you've said, if they're coming for me, then they can come for anyone. So I think that's really, really interesting and I think it's one of those moments, I mean, we should do this with all history anyway, where we really need to think about the people in the present that they were living in. Hindsight is a wonderful thing in so many ways, but it's also a difficult and challenging thing, and it gives us bias that it's hard to shake off, but that I. It's important to keep yourself in the present in the late 1640s, to try and understand it.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (20:16)

And with this story, there's a whole cast of colourful characters that we could talk about. Obviously, as we've said, listeners can go and find out more, but if you could select a few that you think are worth mentioning right here, right now, who would you pick?

Rebecca Riddell (20:31)

That's really hard because there's so many. I think John Pym's really important to the story of the Civil Wars. I wish he'd lived longer. He dies quite early, so he dies from bowel cancer just before he arranges a new agreement with the Scottish Covenanters to bring them on the side of the parliamentarians. So I think he's incredibly important. There's some women that are amazing, not just cause they're women, but you know, they do incredible things. You know, Brilliana Harley, I mean, loads of the women acting as spies, men acting as spies as well. John, I'm gonna hand to you because you see this on a granular level.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (21:03)

There's just so many. I mean, one of the women I find particularly interesting is someone called Catherine Chidley, who late in 1641 publishes a really, really kind of sensational book which argues that churches should kind of come together out of the population rather than being imposed from above. And sort of later on she forms this kind of mother and son leveler, kind of dyad with her son Samuel, who becomes this kind of key leveler in 1647-48. There are some really, really interesting characters. And I think one of the things to sort of get our heads around quickly with the Civil War is it's not a world in which we can look and say, oh, there's goodies and baddies, because everyone's kind of disagreeable in some ways. And you know, sort of classic thing with Oliver Cromwell is that the people who are most interested in Oliver Cromwell often see him as being very, very complicated, as they should, because he was. And I think we should look at Charles I in the same kind of way as. Well, I think he had many, many qualities, but he also, he could be quite cruel when he wanted to be. And I think that's one thing we need to get away from in the Civil War. But once we get past this sort of modern desire to see heroes and villains, we see some really, really interesting people who live in this kind of very complicated, very fast changing world. I was telling my daughter recently the story of Sir Lewis Dive. He's this sort of really caddish royalist. He ended up locked up in the Tower of London in 1647, where he was writing to Charles I, giving him really bad political advice, partly because he was also in the Tower of London with John Lilburn, the leading leveler. And they were having dinner together and sort of talking. And then Dive was writing to Charles, giving this terrible political advice. And eventually I think he escaped. I can't whether he escaped or he was let out, but he ended up kind of, you know, out of the Tower of London. And then of course he pops up again in the Royalist army at the Battle of Preston, where he was captured again. And he actually escaped from Whitehall by crawling down a toilet the day after the regicide. It's just hilarious, but also very, very indicative of a world in which you have these kind of real characters. And he's the kind of archetypal cavalier who's also got a bit of a Walter Mitty thing going on because he thinks he's really, really important. And it's those kind of secondary characters, I think, for me, which make the period, because they're just fascinating.

Rebecca Riddell (23:13)

Can I also add as well, that there are the people that listeners can go and find for themselves as well. So there's some incredible databases that are publicly accessible now. So the Civil Wars Petitions Project, which has been spearheaded by Professor Andrew Hopper, he's part of the podcast. Anyone can go to that website and just look through the documents, do your own research, put your surname in there, see if there's an ancestor. Just have a look through. So you can find individuals that way. There's also another amazing resource to do with the 1641 Irish Rebellion, and that's, again, that's spearheaded by Professor Jane Ulmeyer, who's also part of the podcast. And again, you can go in, you can read this testimony and have a look. And there's guides on how to, you know, think about the data and think about the words that have been written down. But so there is lots of. Of ordinary, for want of a better word, people that we can access in relation to the Civil wars to through these databases.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (24:04)

You know, I just want to say something about one of the frustrations that I have about a lot of people's view of this period, and it's one which hopefully the podcast will kind of tackle a little bit. And it's Oliver Cromwell. It's Oliver Bleeding Cromwell. Because everywhere you go in England, there's always some bridge that Oliver Cromwell knocked down or some church that he kind of pulled out, or some, you know, just some hill that he stood on once. I mean, he's not that important for a significant period of the Civil War. It's only really in sort of 1644,45 that he becomes important. But also he is just one of many. And he is a very, very unusual character in lots and lots of ways. He's much more profoundly religious, for example, than most of the people around him would have been who had many, many more complex views of the conflict. So I think if we can sort of get away, particularly from this idea that it's Cromwell versus Charles, because I think that's so simplified, but if we can see the real cast of characters and as Rebecca says, like, you know, going right into the sort of real, you know, the soldiers in the army, the women who went out and built the defences of London, all these kind of ordinary people who had a really important role to play. I think that's a really good thing.

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Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (26:44)

Are there any other myths that you would like to bust or major misconceptions or misunderstandings that you hope to challenge with the series?

Rebecca Riddell (26:53)

I think I've said it beginning. I think one of the big things that I wanted to do with this series was to show that it was a conflict within a wider context. So it wasn't just the English Civil War. There were things going on, you know, major events going on and wars going on in Scotland, Ireland and also the way that Wales supported particularly the royalist cause for the majority of the Civil Wars. I think that's really important. I also think if we're going to broaden it out even more is to see the wars within the context of what's going on in Europe as well. So we're seeing a period of Huge change and conflict when it comes to religion. The idea that Christianity is a battle between Catholicism and Protestantism during this time is true, but we need to look at Protestantism and what that actually means to different spaces and different people. So I think all of that is something that I wanted to try and shine a spotlight on and hopefully make it a little bit clearer in people's minds, because it is complicated. It's a complicated time period, but that doesn't mean that we should be fearful of it.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (27:51)

Yeah. And I think one of the other things that this podcast has done really well is it's shown the kind of rationality of people in the 17th century, the intelligence of people, people in the 17th century. Because I think we, as moderns, we like to look back at the past and sort of think, oh, well, haven't we come on a long way since there? But you've got people here who are thinking about very, very difficult issues, very complicated issues, and they're doing it in a very intelligent way and they're writing about it. There's a side to the political discourse, which is extremely close to what we would call sort of fake news and very sort of overwrought. But there's also a lot of very, very careful thought about politics and about the Constitution and about religion and all these kind of things. And I think seeing the people who were involved in this period as being intelligent, often rational individuals with complex ideas and complex, often very different to our own. And that's fine because it's history. Right. But with these kind of very complex ideas and ability to sort of think about them, I think is really, really important as well, because we need to get away from this idea that people in the past were somehow not as intelligent as we are, because I don't think that's true.

Rebecca Riddell (28:55)

They're probably more so in terms of, like, being able retain memories and information. We're so reliant on digital devices now. We have different kinds of intelligence.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (29:04)

For those going on to listen to the series, what's the one thing you think that they really need to sort of understand, get to grips with, to really situate themselves in the society of the time and understand the civil wars.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (29:15)

It'S a really, really good question. And the obvious answer is that it's a very religious society. And, you know, I like to emphasise the fact that people are thinking about a lot more than just religion, but I don't think we can get away from the fact that it is a profoundly religious, religious society and things that, to us, feel quite you know, of minor importance to our daily lives, such as, you know, whether bishops were appointed by God or whether they've been appointed by men. Those kind of things can have a really, really big importance to people at this point. So I think there's that. One of the best chapters ever written about this period is the first chapter in Sir Keith Thomas's Religion and the Decline of Magic. And it's a book about magic and witchcraft and all those kind of things. But he starts with this very short chapter where he just describes how uncertain the world is in this period. It's a moment where, you know, one bad harvest can cause all kinds of devastation. It's where disease that we know are curable are basically devastating for families or for towns. And it's where, you know, economic lives are very, very fragile. It doesn't take very much for you to be cast out of your job and basically begging on the street. And I think that uncertainty is a very, very important thing to get your head around if you want to understand what life is in the 17th century was like not just on this archipelago, but everywhere in the world, really. So I think I'd say that, yeah.

Rebecca Riddell (30:33)

And just to. Just to underline that with some of the pamphlets that we see at the times, we have pamphlets like the World Turned Upside down, people thinking that. And this is a quote, these are the days of shaking, or I'm probably misquoting it there. But this existential nature of being, the idea that your mortal life is just one part of an immortal journey. I think it's important, particularly in agnostic societies, to today to remember that when we're thinking about people in the 17th century, but also to bear in mind how it's possible for humans to have multiple realities in their mind at once. So you might be feeling existential, but at the same time you might be a bit annoyed with your neighbor John. Not John, you John, but John down the road. And those things will come into it as well. So there's lots of different layers. And I think this is one of the things with the Civil Wars. Throughout history, people have been looking for one cause they've thought, aha, I found it. This was the reason when actually, it's easy for me to say this, but it was probably down to multiple different things and a series of bad decisions in a very short space of time that were based upon concerns that have been going on for a long time. So long and short causes, I guess. But the one thing that I think is really interesting, this is one of those, what if moments and I think I might have asked you your opinion on this before, John, because I'm not sure the jury's out for me, maybe, I don't know. Do you think we would have had the Civil War had we had a different monarch?

Dr. Jonathan Healey (31:55)

Yeah, it's a really good question because, I mean, the one that always gets mentioned is Henry, who's Charles's elder brother, who died in 1612. And in theory he would have been this kind of great sort of Protestant hero who would have taken up the sword and fought in the European wars and would have been very, very popular and most of all would have been a kind of solid Calvinist. So, you know, would have been acceptable to the Puritans. I don't know. You know, it's very hard to say. I mean, there's 30 years difference between his death and the outbreak of the English Civil War at. So it's quite hard to say. But I think there's a lot of kind of deep lying structural problems which would still have been there. And one of the most fundamental of those is of course this difference between the three kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland. And that would not have gone away. I assume he would have been more acceptable in Scotland, but we don't know that for sure. I quite liked a bit of counterfactual history, but yeah, E.P. thompson had some choice words to say about those, which are probably not suitable for a podcast, but I think it can be valuable because what it does is it puts you in the moment, it helps you think about the people who are there, there, and they're looking at this and they're thinking, well, there's all these different pathways which could be in front of us. And obviously we as historians, we know which pathway was followed most of the time, but people at the time didn't. And part of the job of historians is to have that kind of empathy which allows us to discard ideally all the extra stuff that we know and try and see things from the perspective of people who were there and saw these uncertain futures in front of.

Rebecca Riddell (33:23)

I do think Charles's personality was an issue. I think that was a big issue in the Civil wars, not just the idea of monarchy. Him as a monarch was a key thing.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (33:33)

I think he was quite brittle and he didn't like to be opposed and all those kind of things, but I like the idea and I think it's Conrad Russell actually who said this that basically it would have been better if he had been completely awful because then he would have just been deposed. Whereas actually because he did have quite a lot of qualities and he was able to inspire loyalty among certain people. He was quite an effective party leader. He wasn't an effective king because a king has to be unifying, but he was an effective party leader. And that meant that you could have a civil war rather than just a sort of, you know, a kind of Edward II kind of situation. And I think that's really interesting. It's a really interesting way. I think I probably agree with it.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (34:11)

Now, there is a whole fantastic, evocative podcast series for our listeners to go away and tune into. But before we go, I have one final question for the both of you. Obviously this is a shorter episode. We can't fit the entire series into this half an hour or so. So what message would you like to leave listeners with? Is there something that was left on the cutting room floor of the series that we should talk about? Is there something major that we've missed that we should talk about right now?

Rebecca Riddell (34:41)

I think for me, I think there is always going to be things that we could have put in. We had six episodes to tell the story of the mid 17th century conflict across Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland. So there's a lot that we needed to cover. So it's an overview, but we do go into a surprising amount of detail with certain respects. I think what listeners should feel is that they can just listen to it. You don't need to know a lot beforehand. Just go and listen. Don't find it daunting. It is complicated, but hopefully we can guide you through and use it as a jumping off point. If you're interested, go and find out more. Read John's book Blood in Winter. It's fantastic with regards to the lead up to the Civil wars as well. And hopefully, John, you're writing more on the period.

Dr. Jonathan Healey (35:22)

Yeah, I am. I'm writing about the period after the Civil War leading up to the regicide at the moment. So that should be hitting the shops. Oh, 2028 sometime. I mean, I think for me, just to kind of really reiterate what Rebecca was saying, just jump in and enjoy it and get lost in this really, really weird world. I think in some ways the 17th century is a bit like one of those kind of incredibly complex, incredibly detailed fantasy worlds that authors write. It's sort of like Lord of the Rings or something like that, where it's very, very complicated. There's a lot in there. The universe building is exceptional, let's put it that way, and. And you've just got to kind of step through the door and enjoy because it's a very, very enjoyable period to know about. It was definitely not an enjoyable period to live through and there's some pretty nasty stuff in there. But the knowledge that you will get from learning about it is wonderful and it will expand your own universe to understand about the 17th century. So do try.

Emily Briffett (Interviewer) (36:19)

Thank you both very much for joining me on the podcast.

Narrator/Intro (Emily Briffett) (36:22)

Rebecca and John that was Emily Briffett in conversation with Rebecca Riddiel and Jonathan Healy. Rebecca's podcast series Uprising the Civil wars is available now.

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