History Extra Podcast Summary: “Why We Shouldn't See Museum Artefacts as 'Stolen'”
Podcast Information:
- Title: History Extra Podcast
- Host/Author: Immediate Media
- Description: Delivers gripping historical stories and conversations with leading experts, exploring everything from famous figures and events to lesser-known aspects of global history.
Episode Details:
- Episode Title: Why We Shouldn't See Museum Artefacts as 'Stolen'
- Release Date: March 30, 2025
- Guest: Professor Justin M. Jacobs, author of How Museums Got Their Treasures
I. Introduction to the Debate on Museum Artifacts
Matt Elton opens the episode by highlighting the ongoing debates surrounding the repatriation of museum artifacts. He introduces Professor Justin M. Jacobs and his book, How Museums Got Their Treasures, which challenges prevailing narratives about how artifacts arrived in Western museums.
Key Discussion Points:
- The mainstream view often portrays museum artifacts as products of Western imperialism and theft.
- Jacobs argues for a more nuanced understanding, emphasizing the importance of the source cultures’ perspectives.
II. Justin M. Jacobs' Counter-Argument: Nuanced Acquisition of Artifacts
Timestamp [02:27]: Jacobs counters the prevalent assumption that museum artifacts were predominantly acquired through illegitimate means. He emphasizes that historical contexts differ significantly from modern interpretations.
Notable Quote:
"It's becoming increasingly common for many people to simply just sort of assume that museums are essentially crime scenes now... I'm trying to show that if we look at historical evidence, people 100, 200 years ago thought quite differently."
— Justin M. Jacobs [02:58]
III. The Five Pathways of Artifact Acquisition
Jacobs outlines five primary methods through which artifacts have historically found their way into museums:
- Military Plunder
- Diplomatic Gifts
- Dealers (Antiquities Dealers)
- Scholars: Stationary Excavations
- Scholars: Mobile Expeditions
Notable Quote:
"Each piece has its own context that we need to understand."
— Justin M. Jacobs [04:42]
IV. Contextual Misinterpretation of Historical Transactions
Jacobs argues that modern interpretations often overlook the intentions and perceptions of the source cultures at the time of acquisition. He stresses the importance of understanding how these cultures viewed the artifacts and the transactions themselves.
Notable Quote:
"We are stripping away their historical agency by not allowing them to speak."
— Justin M. Jacobs [26:28]
V. Agency of Source Cultures in Artifact Acquisition
A central theme of Jacobs' argument is restoring the agency of source cultures. He contends that many societies willingly engaged in the exchange or gifting of artifacts without the coercion often implied in contemporary discourse.
Notable Quote:
"They were enthusiastic about participating in this enterprise to get what they felt was more valuable at the time period."
— Justin M. Jacobs [13:35]
VI. Case Studies: Chinese and Egyptian Artifacts
Jacobs delves into specific examples to illustrate his points:
-
Elgin Marbles: Initially not viewed as national symbols by Greeks or Ottoman officials. Their removal was part of diplomatic negotiations rather than outright theft.
Notable Quote:
"The permission to remove these crumbling pagan marble... was given away for Egypt."
— Justin M. Jacobs [13:35] -
Modern Chinese History: Discovery of Chinese documents in Oral Stein's archives revealed that Chinese officials often cooperated willingly, countering the narrative of resistance.
Notable Quote:
"The Chinese who interacted with these people... were enthusiastic about participating."
— Justin M. Jacobs [18:16] -
Egyptian Artifacts: Many objects were acquired without negative sentiments from the local population, as they didn’t perceive these artifacts as national symbols.
Notable Quote:
"They do not regard it as a symbol of the nation. Therefore, there's nothing traitorous about allowing it to leave."
— Justin M. Jacobs [26:36]
VII. Antiquities Dealers and Their Role
Jacobs examines the role of antiquities dealers, revealing a complex supply chain where local participants willingly engaged in the sale and export of artifacts for economic benefits.
Notable Quote:
"Dealers are not going into the countryside with guns and an army... they're making their daily pound and profit off of it."
— Justin M. Jacobs [18:16]
He emphasizes that while dealers play a part in the removal of artifacts, the broader supply chain involves multiple stakeholders who viewed the transactions as economically beneficial rather than coercive.
VIII. Indigenous Artifacts and First Contact
Jacobs touches upon the acquisition of indigenous artifacts, particularly during the first contact period. He differentiates between the initial exchanges, which were often voluntary and symbolic, and the post-contact era marked by disease and power imbalances.
Notable Quote:
"First contact... most of the things that were collected are not morally nefarious, are not illegitimate. They were willingly given."
— Justin M. Jacobs [35:43]
IX. The Chime Museum: A Non-Western Museum of Western Art
As a compelling example, Jacobs describes the Chime Museum in Taiwan—a Western-style museum housing exclusively Western artifacts. This case challenges the assumption that non-Western museums acquiring Western art involves imperialist force.
Notable Quote:
"Appearances are not always what they appear, and it's the job of historians to explain why things are the way they are."
— Justin M. Jacobs [41:07]
X. Concluding Thoughts on Museums and Historical Narratives
Jacobs concludes by advocating for a balanced view of museums. While acknowledging that some artifacts were acquired through questionable means, he argues that the majority were obtained legitimately and with the consent of the source cultures at the time.
Notable Quote:
"We've gone too far in essentially viewing museums as crime scenes... it's a historical disservice."
— Justin M. Jacobs [39:27]
He urges historians and the public to reconsider preconceived notions and to allow source cultures to voice their historical perspectives without projecting modern agendas onto past events.
Final Reflections
Matt Elton wraps up by promoting Jacobs' book and referencing another episode featuring the Benin Bronzes, encouraging listeners to explore alternative perspectives on museum artifacts.
Key Takeaways:
- Nuanced Understanding: The acquisition of museum artifacts is a complex process influenced by historical contexts, economic factors, and the agency of source cultures.
- Restoring Agency: It's crucial to acknowledge and incorporate the perspectives of the cultures from which artifacts originate to avoid oversimplified narratives.
- Balanced View of Museums: While recognizing the imperialist history associated with some artifacts, it's important to appreciate the legitimate and consensual acquisitions that have enriched museum collections worldwide.
For Further Exploration:
- Book Mentioned: How Museums Got Their Treasures by Justin M. Jacobs
- Related Episode: Discussion on the Benin Bronzes with Bronwyn Efrel
You can access the full episode and subscribe to the History Extra podcast here.