Women killers of the early modern era

Summary

History Extra Podcast Summary: "Women Killers of the Early Modern Era"

Introduction

In the episode titled "Women Killers of the Early Modern Era," released on March 19, 2025, the History Extra podcast delves into the intriguing and often sensationalized narratives surrounding female murderers in early modern Britain. Hosted by Immediate Media, the episode features historian Blessing Adams, author of Thou Savage Female Killers in Early Modern Britain. Adams explores the societal obsession with women who committed lethal acts, dissecting what these stories reveal about historical attitudes towards gender, justice, and power.

The Obsession with Female Killers

Blessing Adams opens the discussion by highlighting a perplexing trend she encountered during her research: the disproportionate focus on female murderers in early modern true crime literature. She notes, “Was there an epidemic of female killers?… Women hardly ever killed” (03:24). Despite the rarity of such crimes, the literature was rife with accounts of women who killed, particularly those who murdered close family members. Adams was fascinated by this discrepancy, prompting her to investigate the underlying reasons for this societal fixation.

Representation of Female Killers in Media

Adams explains that female murderers were depicted in the media with extreme horror and disdain. She states, “There was no sympathetic view of women who killed… women were often described as being unwoman, unhuman, monstrous” (04:29 - 04:42). This dehumanizing rhetoric served to reinforce contemporary gender norms, portraying women as incapable of extreme violence. Such language not only sensationalized the crimes but also perpetuated stereotypes about female nature.

Gender Roles and Blame

A significant theme discussed is the societal need to place blame on women for committing crimes, even in cases where men were the primary aggressors. For instance, Adams recounts the case of Letitia Wigginton, who, alongside her lodger, killed her maid servant. Despite the man delivering the fatal blow, historical accounts excessively emphasized the woman’s role (05:05 - 05:28). This tendency reflects a broader patriarchal bias, where women were scapegoated to maintain control over social hierarchies.

Comparison with Male Violence

Adams contrasts the portrayal of female violence with that of male violence in the early modern period. While male aggression, such as dueling, was often considered noble or honorable, female violence was deemed unnatural and monstrous. She explains, “Male violence was considered to be the natural, vigorous, virile, manly violence… whereas female violence was either laughable or monstrous” (08:27 - 09:22). This stark difference underscores the gendered expectations of behavior and the societal double standards applied to acts of violence.

Female Methods of Murder

The episode explores why certain methods of murder, like poisoning, were associated predominantly with women. Adams elaborates, “Poisoning was considered the ideal weapon for women because it was non-confrontational, secretive, and dishonorable” (11:03 - 12:11). This perception aligned with the prevailing view of women as weaker and more deceitful, reinforcing stereotypes about their abilities and moral character.

Public Fascination and Depiction

Public executions were not only punitive measures but also spectacles that drew large crowds. Adams describes how the bodies of executed criminals became macabre tourist attractions, with notable cases like Elizabeth Evans’ preserved body becoming subjects of gruesome fascination (20:54 - 21:26). These public displays amplified the sensationalism surrounding female murderers, embedding these stories into the collective historical consciousness.

Case Studies: Margaret Burnseed

One poignant case discussed is Margaret Burnseed, who was implicated in her husband's murder not due to evidence but because of her perceived lack of emotional response. Adams recounts, “There was absolutely no evidence linking Margaret to the murder… she was condemned to death on the grounds of her moral character” (22:49 - 24:35). This case exemplifies how societal expectations of female behavior were used to justify harsh punishments, often disregarding the actual circumstances or evidence.

Execution and Pleading the Belly

Adams touches on the desperate measures women took to avoid execution, such as pleading the belly—a claim of pregnancy meant to delay or avert their death sentences. She explains, “Pleading the belly was a last-ditch effort to save oneself… it involved examination by a jury of matrons” (27:46 - 28:22). While sometimes successful, these pleas often led to public ridicule and further stigmatization of the women involved.

Parallels with Modern Day

Drawing parallels to contemporary society, Adams observes that the skepticism and scrutiny women face in criminal cases remain strikingly similar to those of the past. She reflects, “The emotional responses of women are interrogated to such an absurd degree… some things never change” (32:42 - 33:17). This continuity highlights persistent issues in how female criminality is perceived and addressed both historically and today.

Conclusion

Through detailed analysis and compelling case studies, Blessing Adams elucidates how early modern Britain’s obsession with female murderers was less about the women themselves and more about reinforcing societal norms and gender roles. The episode sheds light on the intersections of gender, power, and justice, revealing enduring patterns in the portrayal and treatment of women who transgressed societal expectations. Adams concludes with a reflective note on the importance of recognizing these historical biases, emphasizing the need for continued progress in understanding and addressing female criminality without prejudice.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “Was there an epidemic of female killers?… Women hardly ever killed” (03:24).
• “There was no sympathetic view of women who killed… women were often described as being unwoman, unhuman, monstrous” (04:29 - 04:42).
• “Poisoning was considered the ideal weapon for women because it was non-confrontational, secretive, and dishonorable” (11:03 - 12:11).
• “The emotional responses of women are interrogated to such an absurd degree… some things never change” (32:42 - 33:17).

This comprehensive exploration by Blessing Adams not only uncovers the historical narratives of female murderers but also invites listeners to reflect on the enduring stereotypes and biases that continue to shape our understanding of gender and justice.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. From true crime pamphlets to reports from the scaffold, early modern Britain was gripped by tales of women who killed. But were these cases as common as they seemed? Or was something else at play? Speaking to Lauringood, historian Blessing Adams explores the obsession with female murderers in this period and considers what it tells us about historical attitudes to gender, justice and power.

[Podcast Guest]

We're talking about your book Thou Savage Female Killers in Early Modern Britain. Now you've written a book about murder in this period more generally, but what Brought you to write this one focused on crimes committed by women in particular?

[Blessing Adams]

Well, it's. As I was researching my first book.

[Podcast Guest]

I was reading through an awful lot.

[Blessing Adams]

Of sort of like the true crime literature of the day, an awful lot of it.

[Podcast Guest]

And something that was jumping out at me was just how much of it.

[Blessing Adams]

Was disproportionately about female killers. Just reading this source you'd think to yourself, was there an epidemic of female.

[Podcast Guest]

Killers in this period?

[Blessing Adams]

What was going on? There wasn't an epidemic of female killers.

[Podcast Guest]

Women hardly ever killed.

[Blessing Adams]

But there seemed to be a real obsession with the idea of women killing and especially the idea of women killing their nearest and dearest. I was just so fascinated. The question that was kind of going.

[Podcast Guest]

Around in my head as I started.

[Blessing Adams]

Thinking about writing this book was why?

[Podcast Guest]

What's the obsession with female killers in the early modern period?

[Blessing Adams]

And that's sort of what was driving me through the writing of this book. I'm really interested in stories of these.

[Podcast Guest]

Women who killed, but I'm also really interested in like the obsession with female killers as well.

That is a very clear thread in the book. And it's clear just how sensationalized these crimes are. How do we see them represented in newspapers and other media at the time?

[Blessing Adams]

As absolute horror shows. There was no sympathetic view of women who killed. Even if they killed in extreme circumstances of provocation or domestic violence or something like that. If women killed to save themselves, it was still considered to be the most outrageous, disgusting, unholy, unnatural thing that a woman could possibly do. So the rhetoric in the early modern.

[Podcast Guest]

Crime, true crime literature, was really that of wonder news almost.

[Blessing Adams]

There was this sense of awe and horror. Women were often described as being unwoman, unhuman, monstrous. And I think this is a rhetoric that's still around today.

[Podcast Guest]

If we're reading accounts of female killers.

[Blessing Adams]

Today, we still get the same language, which I always think is just so fascinating. But yeah, a real, real fear, a real horror of female killers.

[Podcast Guest]

It's that othering of women, isn't it? In essence, women who commit these crimes can't possibly be women. They have to be some sort of creature or alternative being. What sort of language is actually used to describe the women committing these crimes?

[Blessing Adams]

These true crime pamphlets have got these.

[Podcast Guest]

Bold eye catching headlines and I was always struck by one that was matchless.

[Blessing Adams]

Monsters of the female Sex. I almost called my book that because I just thought it was just so. It's dramatic and it's sort of like summing up this idea of female killers as being Monstrous. They can't possibly be natural, normal women. They must be something unwoman, something unhuman.

[Podcast Guest]

And I'd also like to talk about. There are cases in the book of when a man and a woman have committed a crime together, but the woman is made write it in the book as the murderer subject, whilst the man is the mindless object. Why was this the case?

[Blessing Adams]

I think it's just the need to blame, I suppose. The need to blame women. And yeah, you're absolutely right. So a couple of the cases I write about in my book, because my introduction talks about the case of Letitia Wigginton, who, along with her lodger, whipped her maid servant to death. There's another case with a male and female couple who are luring people into dark alleyways and then the man side.

[Podcast Guest]

Of the team beats them to death. But in the literature and in the.

[Blessing Adams]

Reporting of these cases, it's the women's.

[Podcast Guest]

Names that are prominently on the front.

[Blessing Adams]

Of the sort of like the newspaper, even though there weren't papers in those days. And throughout the accounts of these stories, it's always seeming to be pushing the blame onto the women, even if they had a very minimal auxiliary role in the crime. It was the man who landed the killing blow.

[Podcast Guest]

It was the man that was the.

[Blessing Adams]

Aggressor in a lot of these cases.

[Podcast Guest]

But the blame seemed to be he.

[Blessing Adams]

Wouldn'T have done it if he wasn't.

[Podcast Guest]

Led astray by a woman.

[Blessing Adams]

So we sort of like have this popular image of the Lady Macbeth sort of character lurking in the background, being seductive, whispering in a man's ear, seducing.

[Podcast Guest]

Him, telling him to do terrible things.

[Blessing Adams]

And this wasn't just a popular trope on the stage. This was something that was prevalent in the true crime media at the time as well. Why? Honestly, I just think it's the need.

[Podcast Guest]

The want to blame women. I don't know.

[Blessing Adams]

It's one of those questions that's just always nagging at the back of a mind. It's a phenomenon that you can clearly.

[Podcast Guest]

See and it's a phenomenon that you.

[Blessing Adams]

Can clearly follow throughout sort of like the decades and the centuries that I'm writing about. But yeah, there's always that question of why.

[Podcast Guest]

It really struck me though, that, you know, presenting the man as the mindless object in a society where men were expected to lead, it goes against the patriarchal views of the time.

[Blessing Adams]

Yes, and I think you're absolutely right. And with these particular stories, you have men that are failing in their gender role at the time. They're Failing to control the women in their lives and they're failing to adhere to, as you say, sort of like the patriarchal idea of what a man should be. What's the outcome of that?

[Podcast Guest]

Well, terrible, terrible things. Murders, crimes. In a lot of the cases that I write about, it's the men that.

[Blessing Adams]

Are being murdered by women. And the reason it's arrived at, the reason why they've been murdered, is because.

[Podcast Guest]

They fail to act as men, they.

[Blessing Adams]

Fail to do their part, they fail to control women in their lives. So I think a message that's coming across time and again here is ungovernable women, untamable women, women that aren't sort of like being held up, down sufficiently.

[Podcast Guest]

When they break out of their moulds.

[Blessing Adams]

The consequences can be absolutely horrific.

[Podcast Guest]

I'd also like to contextualise this and compare it to how violence committed by men was viewed. I mean, it's entirely different, isn't it? You raised the example of duelling. You know, some of these acts of violence are actually considered noble.

[Blessing Adams]

Yes, exactly. I mean, violence was a very gendered concept in the early modern period. Male violence, as you said, it could.

[Podcast Guest]

Often be a noble or an honorable.

[Blessing Adams]

Thing, but again, within context, male violence between men of equal rank or even equal station. So, as you say with duelling, if you have two men engaged in an honourable duel, or if you have men in the pub and they're all of equal station and they get drunk and they start fighting each other, and if.

[Podcast Guest]

Someone was to be stabbed in that.

[Blessing Adams]

Particular circumstance as well, it was usually mitigated.

[Podcast Guest]

It wasn't treated as murder, it was.

[Blessing Adams]

Treated as misadventure, because there was no premeditation in that particular act, there was no malice aforethought. So, yeah, male violence was considered to be natural. The natural, vigorous, virile, manly violence that is within all men, according to the early moderns.

[Podcast Guest]

And then on the opposite side, women were.

[Blessing Adams]

I mean, female violence was either laughable or monstrous. So women were not supposed to be violent, they were supposed to be gentle.

[Podcast Guest]

They were supposed to be nurturing, they.

[Blessing Adams]

Were supposed to be caregiving and more criminal. Sort of like accounts, rather than accounts of murder, of women who have been scolds or women who've been violent towards their husbands. It's considered to be a joke. And again, this is something that still carries on today because we have in our minds this sort of like, stereotypical image of the female cat fight, the pulling of the hair, the screaming, the slapping. It's ineffective, it's laugh. So this is Something that the early moderns thought of as well. But then when women committed acts of.

[Podcast Guest]

Fatal violence or when they did something.

[Blessing Adams]

So horrific, like in one of my cases, a woman is accused of driving.

[Podcast Guest]

A knife into her husband's throat.

[Blessing Adams]

Another woman sits over her husband and.

[Podcast Guest]

Strangles him in his sleep.

[Blessing Adams]

These are very physical, these are very in your face violent acts. These were considered unthinkable, it was impossible. Women can't do this because it's not within their natures, it's not within the nature of God, it's not within the sort of like the nature of man. So this is again going back to that language of the unhuman and the monstrous is in order to make it work, in order to reconcile themselves to the fact that women clearly were capable of committing acts of horrific violence, they.

[Podcast Guest]

Had to be unwoman'd. So the only way they could really.

[Blessing Adams]

Think about it was, yes, she did this, but she's not really a true woman. So it's kind of like a bit of a mental Olympics to get their minds around the idea that a woman can be physically violent towards a man.

[Podcast Guest]

There is a flip side to this, that it was a really interesting twist in your book. You say that women could commit murder, but there were ways in which they could do it that were perhaps more expected of the female sex, like poison, you know, why were these more associated with women?

[Blessing Adams]

A couple of reasons. Firstly, because women did do a fair amount of poisoning and although sort of.

[Podcast Guest]

Like in various secondary sources I've read.

[Blessing Adams]

It'S been been put forward that men and women use poison to commit murder in equal measure.

[Podcast Guest]

But you're right, it was very much.

[Blessing Adams]

Considered to be a female only crime. So although men did kill by poison, it was kind of dismissed as an outlier. It was most. It was believed that mostly women committed murder by poison. And this was because of what is poisoning? Well, it's a non confrontational, non violent.

[Podcast Guest]

Method of committing murder and it's something.

[Blessing Adams]

You can do secretively. You can hide it in someone's food, you can hide it in sort of like, you know, a healthful posset or drink or something like that. It's something that's very easily administered and.

[Podcast Guest]

The person doesn't know they're being poisoned in the moment, so they can't defend.

[Blessing Adams]

Themselves, they can't fight back. So it was considered to be most dishonourable. We're going back to this idea of honourable violence. Honourable violence was standing face to face with your foe. So this was considered to be the least honourable cowardly disturbing, disgusting. And so for that reason it was considered to be very suitable for women.

[Podcast Guest]

Because women, after all, were weak and cowardly, surely.

[Blessing Adams]

So it was very much this idea that it was the ideal weapon for women because. Because it suited their cowardly, underhanded natures. Again, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm saying this. This was like the mindset of the early moderns. But yes, it was considered to be very much a female only crime.

[Podcast Guest]

There's that image of a woman going to an apothecary and to purchase arsenic to kill her husband. That's bandied around quite a lot, isn't it?

[Blessing Adams]

Yeah, it's a very popular sort of trope. And maybe, perhaps because it was so.

[Podcast Guest]

Popular in the true crime literature and.

[Blessing Adams]

These things did happen, but they didn't happen on such a scale as the.

[Podcast Guest]

True crime literature would have you believe.

[Blessing Adams]

But when it does happen, it's written.

[Podcast Guest]

About to such an extent and it's reprinted and there's multiple editions and they do the rounds so much. And these stories linger, almost becoming urban legends in their own right.

[Blessing Adams]

This sort of like this myth of the female poisoner going to the apothecary's.

[Podcast Guest]

One of the cases I write about.

[Blessing Adams]

Is about a female serial killer and.

[Podcast Guest]

She hid her poison in her hair.

[Blessing Adams]

So she had like this stash of.

[Podcast Guest]

Poison that she kept always hidden in.

[Blessing Adams]

Her bouffant or whatever it was she had going on at the time. And I always thought to myself it sounds made up, like it sounds like something from a story. But yeah, I mean, why not?

[Podcast Guest]

I mean, that story in particular. We're almost at risk of romanticizing these stories.

[Blessing Adams]

Oh absolutely, yes. I mean, if you were to read these primary documents, I can guarantee you there's not an iota of romanticism about it. These are meant to be disturbing, shocking, upsetting and sort of like it's meant to trigger a fear response I think in the reader as well as perhaps an.

[Podcast Guest]

A sense of excitement and titillation to.

[Blessing Adams]

Read about these particular crimes. But you're right, it's like when we, when we're sort of like thinking about.

[Podcast Guest]

These crimes and when I'm writing about.

[Blessing Adams]

These sorts of crimes, I'm always having.

[Podcast Guest]

To bear in mind sort of like.

[Blessing Adams]

The ethics of writing about cases of true murder.

[Podcast Guest]

Yes, these happened hundreds and hundreds of.

[Blessing Adams]

Years ago and there is that safe space, I guess, sort of like between me and them. But that doesn't excuse the fact that.

[Podcast Guest]

These were real crimes, these were real.

[Blessing Adams]

People, and people going through these experiences were going through the most horrific, like, upsetting, traumatic experiences that I think anybody could go through. I try very hard to not be.

[Podcast Guest]

Too sensational or too sort of, like, romantic in these.

[Blessing Adams]

I just try to present the facts as they were as. As I have them from the primary documents.

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[Podcast Guest]

There's a phrase you use, that these women are seeking to control their bodies and environments, often in, as you've just said, very, very difficult circumstances. We're told, aren't we, as modern people, that these women didn't have any control or power. But this book paints a very different picture.

[Blessing Adams]

Yes, I mean, I think there's a tendency, and this is a point I.

[Podcast Guest]

Make in my conclusion, that when we.

[Blessing Adams]

Look back on women's history, it tends to sometimes become a hunt for victims. And women did suffer oppression and they were ignored. They were dismissed, they were subsumed by.

[Podcast Guest]

The men folk in their life. So this is absolutely true, and we.

[Blessing Adams]

Must never lose sight of this. But it doesn't mean that women were entirely helpless and they didn't have voices and they didn't have control over aspects of their lives. And that's. You're totally right. That's something that really comes through with this. The tragedy of that is, though, that many times in these particular Cases, the.

[Podcast Guest]

Outcome of women seizing hold of their.

[Blessing Adams]

Own destinies or trying to fight back against the injustice in their life was ultimately fatal for them. They ended up being executed. Sometimes they were guilty of crimes, sometimes they were innocent of the crimes they were accused of. You always get this. Well, I always had this sense, as I was working through this particular book, that there was always a sense of the women in this book are always struggling against something. That's not to excuse the fact that.

[Podcast Guest]

Many of them committed terrible crimes and.

[Blessing Adams]

That they were murderers, but especially with someone like the Mary Hobry case. This woman was violently abused by her husband, sexually abused by her husband, and she ended up murdering him after a particularly violent rape that he'd committed upon her person. You can't help but feel, I think, something for women in Mary Hobry's situation. But there was no sympathy for Mary in her day. There could be no mitigation, there could be no excuse. So, yes, she had to be executed for her crimes.

[Podcast Guest]

You also discussed the fact that the media and the newspaper, they wouldn't have talked about the circumstances of that woman, but rather just the crime that she'd committed.

[Blessing Adams]

Yes, the crime she committed. In this particular case, not only did they wholly dismiss the actual motive, the actual reason behind the reason she killed her husband is they invented slanderous lies against her. They started spreading rumours that the reason she killed her husband wasn't because she.

[Podcast Guest]

Was desperately trying to save her own.

[Blessing Adams]

Life, it was because she was a sex addict that wanted to get married to one of her cousins. This was a story that was doing.

[Podcast Guest]

The rounds in several of the primary.

[Blessing Adams]

Documents I looked at. But it was obviously completely made up and it was just designed to explain.

[Podcast Guest]

In a way that the early moderns.

[Blessing Adams]

Could understand, why she killed her husband. It was a dangerous idea to think that women could fatally respond to legal rape and beatings. This was all legal and acceptable in early modern law. So it made sense, I guess, for the early moderns to put this story of she wanted to get married to.

[Podcast Guest]

One of her cousins, she was in.

[Blessing Adams]

A sexual relationship with her cousins. It was how they could square the circle, I suppose.

[Podcast Guest]

I feel this is coming up a bit, this idea of using these horrible circumstances as an example of if you go against the status quo, this is what will happen.

Oh, absolutely.

[Blessing Adams]

And that's something that I think everybody really, who sort of like, delves into.

[Podcast Guest]

These sorts of history should bear in.

[Blessing Adams]

Mind, because I'm not working exclusively from the early modern true crime pamphlets, but.

[Podcast Guest]

I was working from a lot of them.

[Blessing Adams]

And you always have to bear in mind who's writing these and why. And a lot of the early modern true crime pamphlets were state sanctioned or semi official publications and the people writing.

[Podcast Guest]

Them worked in legal system.

[Blessing Adams]

Several of the cases I write about.

[Podcast Guest]

The main primary documents that I'm working.

[Blessing Adams]

From were written by prison ordinaries or people whose job it was to squeeze a post trial confession out of the condemned.

[Podcast Guest]

These were the people that were standing.

[Blessing Adams]

In official capacity on the executioner's platform and looking up at these people as they were being executed.

[Podcast Guest]

So many of these people, I shouldn't.

[Blessing Adams]

Say all, but quite a few that I come across, they were working for the state and it was within their interests. You present the guilty to be as guilty as possible. When you're reading through these things, you have to bear in mind that there is a bias at play here. There's always something going on than just a description of events that happened at the time.

[Podcast Guest]

Now you've brought up the phrase true crime quite a bit and that's something that I think a lot of people will think is a very modern idea. But it comes up a lot in the book. And a story that particularly struck me was that of Elizabeth Evans who became known under the alias Canberra Bess. Now at the end of the story, her body is left to be seen by fans of true crime. It seems very gruesome, but a bit close with the modern obsession we have with crime.

[Blessing Adams]

Yes, I mean I do use true crime a lot.

[Podcast Guest]

This is not a word or a.

[Blessing Adams]

Phrase that the early moderns themselves would have used. So you're right, it is a very modern thing. I just used it to sort of draw that parallel between the literature of then and now. But yes, I mean Elizabeth Evans body, it was preserved I believe. I think it was quite gruesome. It was described, it was like preserved.

[Podcast Guest]

Bones and sinews and everything.

[Blessing Adams]

And I was like, what did that look like?

[Podcast Guest]

And her accomplice as well was hanged in chains after his execution and moved.

[Blessing Adams]

Around various parts of London for people to admire.

[Podcast Guest]

He became a bit of a tourist attraction.

[Blessing Adams]

So this sort of like this, this tourism of the bodies of condemned murderers and of course as well the entertainment factor of executions themselves. And a big part of these true true crime, these early modern true crime.

[Podcast Guest]

Accounts, isn't just describing the crime crimes.

[Blessing Adams]

It'S describing the process of justice that comes afterwards. The arrest, the interrogation, the confession, if you can secure one, and then the execution. And it's quite disturbing I think when you're reading the level of detail that.

[Podcast Guest]

Goes into describing the executions, it's certainly far, far more graphic than anything that we would have today.

[Blessing Adams]

And there's definitely a reason behind that. I think, like you say, an absolute.

[Podcast Guest]

Fascination with the whole process of murder, from the actual crime to the punishment.

[Blessing Adams]

But, yes, there was definitely tourism, tourism.

[Podcast Guest]

As well in the prisons.

[Blessing Adams]

So condemned felons that were waiting to go to execution, it was usual for.

[Podcast Guest]

The guards to charge a fee for people to come in and view the prisoner, have a chat with them.

[Blessing Adams]

Yeah, there was a real fascination and like you say, sort of like the. The tourism factor.

[Podcast Guest]

Another element of the book was that the public seemed to always be involved. There's another pair of eyes in these stories. One tale that was really evident in was that of Margaret, who's accused of murdering her husband. And there's this idea of if she perhaps behaved more in the realms of expectation to the public, would her end have been the same?

[Blessing Adams]

So this particular story is Margaret Burnseed.

[Podcast Guest]

Her husband was found dead in a.

[Blessing Adams]

Field in Peckham, which was about an.

[Podcast Guest]

Hour outside of London, as it was then.

[Blessing Adams]

And no one knew who this man was. He was eventually identified, and when a couple of people went to inform his widow that her husband is dead, she.

[Podcast Guest]

Was very dry, she was very uncaring. She didn't cry.

[Blessing Adams]

She seemed bored more than anything, and impatient that they were wasting her time. And this was incredibly disturbing and troubling to the people that were involved in investigating her husband's death.

[Podcast Guest]

There was absolutely no evidence linking Margaret Fernseed to the murder of her husband, none whatsoever. The only reason she became a person.

[Blessing Adams]

Of interest and the only reason she.

[Podcast Guest]

Was arrested and then later interrogated was.

[Blessing Adams]

Because she failed to cry. And I found this absolutely fascinating, that.

[Podcast Guest]

Her emotional response was the reason that she became suspect number one in her husband's murder.

[Blessing Adams]

And I couldn't help but draw parallels to crimes that have happened, you know, today, where the emotional responses of women are interrogated to such an absurd degree. On the Internet, you have photographs of these women as they're coming out of the police stations or as this coming out of churches or coming out of the houses. Is she laughing?

[Podcast Guest]

Why is she laughing?

[Blessing Adams]

Is she smiling?

[Podcast Guest]

Is she crying?

[Blessing Adams]

And I just thought to myself, God, you know, some things never change. The outcome of that particular case was, is that there was no evidence throughout the whole trial to link Margaret to her husband's murder. But she was condemned to death, I think, on the grounds of her moral character. She wasn't a nice woman. She was a bored. She was a brothel keeper. She abused and used and hurt a lot of people in her life. So again, we don't always have to think of these women as being, you know, like victims or anything. She.

[Podcast Guest]

She was a horrible person in her own right.

[Blessing Adams]

But that's not a crime that brings a death sentence. She could have been convicted for her other crimes.

[Podcast Guest]

Keeping a brothel, for handling stolen goods.

[Blessing Adams]

All these things that she did in.

[Podcast Guest]

Her life, they didn't carry the death.

[Blessing Adams]

Penalty at this particular time. So it's an interesting case in that here we have a woman who I think was condemned to death on the basis of her moral character rather than the fact that they could prove that.

[Podcast Guest]

She committed any crime.

[Blessing Adams]

But it all links back to the fact or all traces back to the.

[Podcast Guest]

Beginning when she failed to cry.

[Blessing Adams]

And I just think that's so fascinating.

[Podcast Guest]

You spoke a little there about the parallels between, you know, this early modern history and the modern day. Of course, you have a closer connection to this. You were a police officer before you were an historian. What was it like during the research? Did you see a lot of these parallels between this history and the modern day?

[Blessing Adams]

There was always little bits and bobs that would sort of like, pop up when I'm doing my research, because when I wasn't the police, I was just a police constable. So I never worked in cid. I never investigated these sorts of crimes. But there was lots of things I did do that early modern investigators also did. I mean, I was the first on.

[Podcast Guest]

Scenes of sudden and violent death.

[Blessing Adams]

So I was trained and I often.

[Podcast Guest]

Had to examine a crime scene as.

[Blessing Adams]

The first person there. I've interviewed witness and suspects, I've arrested people, I've been in prisons and jail. So it's just all these things sort of like these little parts of the criminal investigation and the process of investigating a crime. So I suppose a good example is.

[Podcast Guest]

When I was reading through some coroner's. In the early modern period, coroners often acted more as detectives.

[Blessing Adams]

They didn't just examine the bodies, they.

[Podcast Guest]

Would also interview suspects and witnesses and they would conduct investigations in their own right.

[Blessing Adams]

And it's as I was reading through the coroner's report and as I was reading through it, and this is very early on, before I sort of like really got into this sort of thing, I was being struck because I thought in my mind, o coroner just examines bodies.

[Podcast Guest]

That's all he does.

[Blessing Adams]

And then as I was reading his report, I was like, wait a minute.

[Podcast Guest]

This is a suspect interview.

[Blessing Adams]

And as I was reading through it.

[Podcast Guest]

A lot of the beats A lot.

[Blessing Adams]

Of the questions, when you're conducting a.

[Podcast Guest]

Suspect interview, you always have sort of.

[Blessing Adams]

Like, legislative framework in mind. You're always trying to guide the conversation.

[Podcast Guest]

To hit certain evidential points.

[Blessing Adams]

And I could see that this is exactly what the coroner was doing when.

[Podcast Guest]

He was interviewing a suspect of a murder.

[Blessing Adams]

And that's when I sort of thought to myself, hmm, that's interesting. And that's sort of like what really sort of, like, got me interested in delving into these sorts of cases. And then there's just other examples where they'll be describing particular scenes in the book. Scenes of bodies lying in particular ways, scenes of. Of asphyxiation or people who have bled to death. And although I've not been in that particular crime scene, I will never see that body as it was hundreds of years ago.

[Podcast Guest]

But I've seen similar crime scenes and.

[Blessing Adams]

I've seen similar situations. I suppose perhaps I shouldn't. But you can't help really, but jump.

[Podcast Guest]

Back into your memories and think, yeah.

[Blessing Adams]

I know what that looks like. So I think these little things maybe could give me a little bit of an edge when I'm writing about these sorts of things. But I never want to presume that I'll ever know what it was like for the people who were working those particular crime scenes hundreds of years ago.

[Podcast Guest]

There's also an example I want to talk about in these stories that you include. We talked a bit about execution earlier, and we see an example of a woman is trying to escape the fate of execution by pleading the belly. What was this?

So pleading the belly was something that.

[Blessing Adams]

Was used quite regularly by women who.

[Podcast Guest]

Had been condemned to death. And it was a claim of pregnancy.

[Blessing Adams]

The idea being that if they were.

[Podcast Guest]

Found to be pregnant, then their execution.

[Blessing Adams]

Will be put on hold until they had given birth, been delivered of their baby, and then, technically, they should then be executed afterwards. But in reality, that's not what happened.

[Podcast Guest]

In reality, what usually happened was, is that women who successfully pled the belly.

[Blessing Adams]

And then gave birth to their children were then spared. But, yes, it was. It was a way for women to try and spare themselves from execution by claiming they were pregnant. What happened in when you pled the.

[Podcast Guest]

Belly was you would do so in.

[Blessing Adams]

The courtroom, or you would do so sort of like during the judicial process, and you would be examined by jury of matrons, usually 12 women who would be sworn in, and they would be respectable women midwives from your community, from your parish, and they would examine you quite in depth. I don't think it would have been A pleasant examination. But yes, looking for signs of movement would have been what they were looking for. Sort of like signs of quite a far on development in a far on pregnancy. There's absolutely no way that they would have been able to have told if a woman was pregnant in say, her first trimester or something. And yes, so it was sort of.

[Podcast Guest]

Like a last gasp effort.

[Blessing Adams]

It wasn't always successful. I don't write about this in my book, but there is a horrible account of a woman that was burned to death while pregnant and her child bursting.

[Podcast Guest]

Out into the flames.

[Blessing Adams]

Absolutely horrific. That's from Foxes Acts and Monuments. So, yeah, it was a last ditch effort, I think, to try and save yourself. Not always successful. But for women who were pregnant, yes, it was successful. But I think for a lot of the time they were just desperately trying to do anything to get out of it. A lot of the times women weren't pregnant.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, it really comes through this sheer desperation from the conviction to the end.

[Blessing Adams]

And I think as well, a real motivation to try and get yourself pregnant.

[Podcast Guest]

While you're in prison. Prisons weren't sex segregated in the early modern period.

[Blessing Adams]

So women and men would have been in together. And I think there was a real motivation for women in that situation to try and get pregnant. In many of the counts that I'm reading about, they're sort of like scorning the women who are making themselves, as they call it, whores in.

[Podcast Guest]

I don't blame them in the slightest.

[Blessing Adams]

I mean, if this is the only way you can save your life, I mean, it feels like such a desperate.

[Podcast Guest]

Awful thing that you must do in.

[Blessing Adams]

Order to try and save yourself. I believe in one of the cases I write about, one of the women, I think her name was Philippa, she tried this and there was a rumor.

[Podcast Guest]

Going around that she had gotten herself pregnant by her own executioner. And there's a horrible moment where she's.

[Blessing Adams]

Been put on the ladder and the executioner's getting ready to push her off.

[Podcast Guest]

And she's screaming out and crying, would.

[Blessing Adams]

You kill my child? Would you kill my child?

[Podcast Guest]

And it's just too much.

[Blessing Adams]

The executioner in that moment thinks that.

[Podcast Guest]

He'S the father of her unborn child. And he can't stand it.

[Blessing Adams]

So he just runs off and tries to hide. He's dragged back, but he refuses to do his duty.

[Podcast Guest]

So somebody else has to execute this woman.

[Blessing Adams]

I just thought, my God, I mean, reading about these stories, they're so shocking in many ways.

[Podcast Guest]

I mean, I can't even imagine what that particular Scenario, that scene playing out.

[Blessing Adams]

In that moment must have been, like, horrific.

[Podcast Guest]

And I suppose scenes like this would have often been played out publicly as well.

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[Blessing Adams]

I mean, this was in front of.

[Podcast Guest]

An absolutely enormous crowd.

[Blessing Adams]

I mean, this was something that would have been viewed by hundreds, maybe even thousands of people. So, yeah, very public. Incredibly disturbing, I think.

[Podcast Guest]

Seems to be a very little sympathy.

[Blessing Adams]

For these women who claim pregnancy as well. This particular woman, as she was desperately pleading, I think she had been examined twice by a jury of matrons, and both times they found her to be.

[Podcast Guest]

Not pregnant, which is a ruling that.

[Blessing Adams]

Sounds very much like not guilty, doesn't it?

[Podcast Guest]

Not pregnant.

[Blessing Adams]

It's very legalese. Yeah. So she'd been examined twice, but even to the very bitter end, she was determined to try and plead the belly. And unfortunately, it just wasn't working for her. Scorn, disgust, absolutely no sympathy for women who may have been pregnant when they were sent to the executioner's gallows.

[Podcast Guest]

Yeah, there's very, very little sympathy. And I think, although this book is about events hundreds and hundreds of years ago, as you said, there are a lot of differences to what you've experienced, but there is some of it that rings true with what we know today. Finally, blessing. What have you learned from your research and how has it changed, if anything, your view of female criminality today?

[Blessing Adams]

I said it before, but it's just, I guess, one of those things that is inevitable to be said again. But as I was reading through this, I was just thinking to myself, some.

[Podcast Guest]

Things just never change.

[Blessing Adams]

Especially when I was working through the.

[Podcast Guest]

Case of Mary Hoven after she'd killed her husband, she gave an account of.

[Blessing Adams]

Her rape, which would have been legal, but even so, she gave her account.

[Podcast Guest]

Of her rape to the authorities.

[Blessing Adams]

In this narrative, she's constantly being questioned and disbelieved.

[Podcast Guest]

What were you wearing? How hard did you fight back? Did you even bother crying out? And these are the sorts of the disbelief and the questions that are still.

[Blessing Adams]

Thrown at women today, especially the whole idea of dress. In the early modern period, there was a real focus on the state of a woman's Dr.

[Podcast Guest]

Dress. If she claimed to have been raped.

[Blessing Adams]

Then what were her clothes like? And how hard did she fight? And what state were her clothes in before, during, after the rape, this real obsession with clothing. And I couldn't help but think to myself, this is the exact same doubt and questioning and absolute bloody nonsense that is being thrown at women today. And in those particular moments, I find myself just feeling slightly exasperated and I just feel a real drive to feel like we must do things better.

[Podcast Guest]

Things have to be better, better than this.

[Blessing Adams]

So it does give you a drive to feel like things shouldn't be as close to how they were hundreds of years ago, really. I talk about it in my conclusion because it's something that was just really important to me as I was working through this book.

[Podcast Host]

That was Blessing Adams, historian and author of the book Thou Savage Female Killers in Early Modern Britain. Blessing has also delved into several other sensational early modern and murder cases before on the podcast. Search for grisly killings and mysterious motives wherever you listen to podcasts to bring that up. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.