Women who ruled over Africa

Summary

History Extra Podcast: Women Who Ruled Over Africa
Release Date: May 11, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Women Who Ruled Over Africa," hosted by Dani Bird, the History Extra Podcast delves into the intriguing and often overlooked stories of Africa's female rulers. The conversation centers around Paula Akpan's groundbreaking book, When We Ruled: The Rise and Fall of 12 African Queens and Warriors, which challenges traditional narratives and sheds light on the complex legacies of these powerful women.

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Exploring African Female Rulers

Time Stamp: [02:36]

Dani Bird opens the discussion by highlighting the prominence of powerful African women in history, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of their lives and reigns. She asks Paula Akpan to introduce some of these remarkable figures and outline the historical scope of her book.

Paula Akpan: "My book spans about the last 1000 years, beginning with the 12th-century Princess Moremi of Ifa, who ruled in Ileife in present-day Nigeria, and extends to the 17th century with Njinga, the ruler of Matamba and Ndongo in present-day Angola" ([02:52]).

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Diverse and Complex Legacies

Time Stamp: [03:15] - [05:08]

Paula Akpan discusses the varied legacies of the women featured in her book. These rulers are remembered in multifaceted ways—some celebrated as anti-colonial heroes, while others are viewed as villains due to their resistance against European imperialism, which had devastating effects on their populations.

Paula Akpan: "Ranavaluna of Madagascar is remembered as quite a huge villain, including among her people, due to her anti-Christian and anti-European imperialism that led to the halving of her population during her reign" ([03:24]).

Conversely, figures like Nana Asantwa from present-day Ghana are lauded for their resistance against British colonization, particularly their defense of sacred artifacts like the golden stool.

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Research and Community-Centered Approach

Time Stamp: [05:08] - [09:45]

Dani Bird inquires about Paula's inspiration for selecting these 12 African queens and warriors. Paula reveals that the idea originated from her publisher, but her deep passion for community-centered research drove her to authentically represent these historical figures.

Paula Akpan: "It's always been very important for me that my history work is community-centered in some way, involving the people whose lives and experiences I'm chronicling" ([07:10]).

She emphasizes the importance of engaging with local historians, storytellers, and communities to avoid Western-centric biases and to uncover nuanced perspectives on these rulers.

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Enduring Legacies and Modern Resonance

Time Stamp: [09:45] - [12:44]

The conversation shifts to why the legacies of these female rulers continue to resonate today. Paula explains that their stories are intertwined with the broader history of colonization and the enduring impacts of Western and Ottoman imperialism on African societies.

Paula Akpan: "The legacies are far-reaching because it's not just about these individual rulers. It's also a history of colonization, Western and Ottoman, and Africans are still reckoning with the consequences of these historical forces" ([09:57]).

She highlights how colonial legacies have fostered ethnic divisions and violence, exemplified by the Hutu-Tutsi conflict in Rwanda and Burundi, tracing these tensions back to colonial-era policies.

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Dominance of Certain Regions in Historical Narratives

Time Stamp: [20:28] - [24:53]

Paula addresses the dominance of specific African regions in historical narratives, attributing it to factors such as colonial influence and the Eurocentric focus on civilizations like Ancient Egypt.

Paula Akpan: "There is so much made of the pyramids of Egyptian legacies that over time, they've been positioned as the peak African civilization" ([21:35]).

She discusses how colonial chroniclers amplified certain regions and rulers, often embellishing their accounts to fit preconceived notions of African societies, thereby marginalizing other regions and their histories.

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Critical Fabulation and Reimagining History

Time Stamp: [25:58] - [29:03]

Dani Bird introduces the concept of critical fabulation, prompting Paula to explain how this method was utilized in her research to challenge and expand upon existing historical narratives.

Paula Akpan: "Critical fabulation is a way of offering a counter-history through similar source materials, pushing against the archive to imagine otherwise" ([26:03]).

Drawing from Saidiya Hartman's work, Paula uses critical fabulation to address the gaps and biases in colonial archives, striving to present a more comprehensive and authentic portrayal of African female rulers.

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Personal Connections and Identity in Historical Analysis

Time Stamp: [33:05] - [35:30]

Paula discusses how her identity as a black African lesbian woman influences her approach to historical research, allowing her to uncover aspects of these rulers' lives—such as their sexualities and gender expressions—that may be overlooked by traditional historians.

Paula Akpan: "My lens means that I'm able to pull out certain things that might potentially be overlooked by other historians" ([33:40]).

She highlights the importance of recognizing the plurality and complexity of these rulers, moving beyond monolithic or one-dimensional portrayals.

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Intended Audience and Impact

Time Stamp: [36:38] - [38:42]

When asked about her target audience, Paula emphasizes that her primary focus is on Africans, both on the continent and in the diaspora, aiming to provide a resource that resonates deeply with their experiences and histories.

Paula Akpan: "I was really writing for Africans on the continent, but also in the diaspora... I hope it sparks like a thirst, but also a critical analysis" ([36:46]).

She aspires for her book to contribute to a growing canon on African legacies, encouraging readers to engage critically with history and seek out more information on these extraordinary women.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Dani Bird thanking Paula Akpan for her insightful contributions. Paula's work not only brings to light the powerful roles African women have played in history but also challenges listeners to reconsider established narratives and appreciate the complexity of their legacies.

Podcast Host: "That was Paula Akpan, journalist, historian and public speaker, whose book When We Ruled: The Rise and Fall of 12 African Queens and Warriors is out now. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman."

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Notable Quotes

• Paula Akpan:
  "Ranavaluna of Madagascar is remembered as quite a huge villain, including among her people, due to her anti-Christian and anti-European imperialism that led to the halving of her population during her reign." ([03:24])

• Paula Akpan:
  "It's always been very important for me that my history work is community-centered in some way, involving the people whose lives and experiences I'm chronicling." ([07:10])

• Paula Akpan:
  "Critical fabulation is a way of offering a counter-history through similar source materials, pushing against the archive to imagine otherwise." ([26:03])

• Paula Akpan:
  "I was really writing for Africans on the continent, but also in the diaspora... I hope it sparks like a thirst, but also a critical analysis." ([36:46])

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Further Engagement

To delve deeper into the lives of these extraordinary African women and understand their impact on history, listen to the full episode of the History Extra Podcast and explore Paula Akpan's When We Ruled: The Rise and Fall of 12 African Queens and Warriors.

For more information and to subscribe to the History Extra Podcast, visit HistoryExtra.com.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast. Fascinating historical conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine. From rain making queens to dogged isolationists, the lives and reigns of Africa's female rulers have long been shrouded in mystery, misunderstanding and misogyny. Over the centuries and across the continent, these individuals navigated the rigid traditions of their own cultures to wield power, even to the detriment of their subjects. Paula Akpan's new book, When We Ruled, traces the lives of 12 powerful African women, challenging prevailing narratives to reveal a continent shaped by matriarchy and contested memories. Dani Bird spoke to her to find.

[Dani Bird]

Out more, I want to start by talking about the women at the heart of your book. Many of them were figures of high social status wielding immense power. Could you tell me about some of these individuals and the time span you Cover in your book.

[Paula Akpan]

My book spans about the last 1000.

Years, beginning with 12th century Princess Moremi from ofa, but came to rule in Ileife in present day Nigeria. And then we go through to the.

17Th century with Njinga, who was the.

Ruler of matamba and ndongo, which is now present day Angola.

Who was this gender blurring ruler and.

Was requiring that people address them as.

A king as well as a queen.

For example, we have Ranavaluna of Madagascar, present day Madagascar, but it was the kingdom of imerina. And she is remembered as quite a.

Huge villain, including amongst her people.

And that is down to the very anti Christian, anti European imperialism that she fronted and ended halving her population across her reign. So there's a mix of figures. There are figures who are lauded today as anti colonialists, like naneya Santwa of present day Ghana, but who ruled over.

Edweso, which was one of the ancient asante stalls, so ancient towns.

And she took on the british when they were trying to not only colonize their land, but to take ownership of their sacred stool, which is like a gold stool. That's an artifact, essentially.

Yeah.

So it covers a lot of figures who are remembered in different ways, Whether as villains, but also whether as worthy of praise.

Some of them are used as examples.

For women and girls of the present day countries that they hailed from and others are not spoken of, are kind of have left maybe embarrassing legacies or there is a general apathy towards their existence.

There are some rulers like riri Kumatima.

Who is of present day Burundi, then understood more as Rundi, whose childhood home was demolished in the last century and has kind of been scrubbed from the.

Country'S history, Even though she was integral.

To various important treaties.

[Dani Bird]

I'd love to hear more about your inspiration for this book. What drew you to these 12 African queens and warriors in particular?

[Paula Akpan]

So the seed of the book idea.

Actually came from my publisher. And I didn't realize that this was.

A way that writing books could work in that. Your publisher? Well, my editor, who I'd known of before actually signing with her, she really wanted this excavation of African women rulers and warriors and thought that I'd be.

A good fit for it.

So I took on the idea. But I really wanted not only to.

Research quite deeply into which particular rulers.

Because I wanted to get some spread of the African continent, but also to trouble a few of the established accounts of the rulers that we have. Like Nani Asantwa has become quite like a selfless figure. Same with like the Mujajis the rangers queen dynasty, they are very much cloaked in mystery and enigma. And I wanted to take on some of those alongside rulers that I hadn't come across until my research. So that was kind of how it started. But I also wanted to ensure that this wasn't a book that I was attempting to write from London and just going to soas and, you know, that was the extent of my research.

It's always been very important for me.

That my history work is community centered in some way, and that the people.

Whose lives and experiences that I'm historicizing.

Or at least those who have knowledge of them, are involved in the process, that we are interlocutors, that we're in conversation. Because I think that especially when it comes to african history, there's such a deep colonial history of colonial anthropologists or.

Explorers writing about lands that they had.

Not yet set foot in. They were able to be experts off the back of that. And I didn't want to repeat or lean into that kind of approach to history work. I think that if you're writing in.

A focused history and somewhere in ireland.

You would be expected to visit the.

Places in ireland that you're referring to. So it was really important for me.

To go on a research trip where.

I was able to meet with local.

Experts, local storytellers, historians, but also visit heritage sites, community sites, the places where, for example, with njinga, and where I explore their gender as well as their role, and how this also shaped them as an unsuitable monarch. It was very important for me to go to a queer organization in angola and be able to converse, be able to just hear their insights, their knowledge, and how their worldview as queer angolans also shapes how they interact with the history of someone that understood their gender with plurality and is fashioned into a queen elsewhere. There was an approach that I wanted to take to this that wasn't just.

If it's possible, creating some sort of straightforward history.

I wanted it to be as complicated and messy, but also engaging with all of the insights that local historians, people like I was talking to taxi drivers about their recollections, you know, like just everyday people have of these monarchs and these rulers and the legacies that they've left behind.

[Dani Bird]

And I think that point you've made there of just interacting with today's africans, essentially is one of the most fascinating aspects of the book. Why do you think the legacy of these women still continue to resonate?

[Paula Akpan]

The legacies are far reaching because it's not just about these individual rulers. It's also, I think, as well. I'd hope that as people read across the book, it's also a history of colonization, Western, but also Ottoman Empire flashes.

Up in there as well.

And Africans on the continent, and to.

Lesser degree, Diasporian Africans, are still reckoning.

With the consequences of colonisation and reckoning with the consequences of, in that Berlin room, the separation of Africa, the scrambling, the demarcations of which lands were their.

Own, the forming of ethnic groups and.

Ethnic identities, identity cards being introduced, introduced into Rwanda and Burundi and the genocides.

That have followed as a result of these hierarchies.

And that's not to say they didn't.

Already exist, they definitely did in both.

Of those kingdoms, but they were completely.

Exaggerated by Belgian occupation, for example.

And you can trace the hatred, the devastation, the violence that has erupted as to whether you're Hutu or Tutsi, right back to that colonisation, right back to.

What a number of the rulers in.

The book were either trying to fight head on, thought that they could use diplomacy and plead their cases.

And many of them, their rules are shaped by this.

And I think also a lot of these rulers have been unremembered to some degree. And I mean that in terms of some of the symbols that really galvanize Africans around the globe, for example, the Dahomey woman warriors and how, you know, this all woman regiment was taking on seasoned armies, seasoned fighters, and, you know, has spurned such huge interest in the last, what, five, ten years with Black Panther paying homage to them, but also the woman king. And if you were to look at documents and a lot of source material, there is so much just ambiguity as to whether Hangbae, who instituted the, well, they're called the Agodie, instituted the Agoje.

Regiment, whether she even existed.

And when I went to Benin, when I was at the royal palaces of Abomi and when I was speaking to.

Local historians, there's no question about whether she existed. She was expunged from the history because.

She was a woman, because they didn't want to be ruled by a woman. And everyone was telling me 1708-1711, and if I was to just go off, you know, colonial articles or source material that I had access to, people like.

Historians and scholars were talking about whether she was a myth.

And then I met the current reigning queen, who represents Hang Bae's family, the current queen, Tassie Hangbear. And I think that was just really incredible to see the massive gaps between what we are taught and imbibe in.

The west compared to a lot of the Surety.

A lot of the.

There was just no question, there was no doubt.

And it's really difficult for me to speak for continental Africans. I'm not a continental African. I'm an African of the diaspora. So I can only hazard guesses and I wouldn't want to put words in their mouths. I think that speaking, at least from what I heard, what was said to me was that there have been so many silences around these histories that one of my interviewees just struggled to even find information on quite a pivotal ruler in her own country. For example, one of my Rwandan interviewees, and we're seeing what Rwanda is doing to DRC currently, and she tells me.

That there is no such word as.

Feminist within her kind of society, within her communities. It's just not used in that way. If you're a feminist and you're an uppity woman, you're a man hater. There is a lot of connotation that comes with it to the point where.

She doesn't actually feel safe referring to herself as such.

So I think, at least for her, it's potentially emboldening to see certain stories of women who have been underappreciated and have been erased in some places to at least have focus on them. And in a text that I've tried to. And I hope that. I hope that's worked, but attempts to critically engage the source material alongside sharing and contributing to canons around these rulers.

[Dani Bird]

You've said that your book is fundamentally about power. Can you unpack that a little bit?

[Paula Akpan]

I think the power that African rulers wielded often gets disappeared. I think that there are very reductive.

Understandings of what pre colonial Africa looked.

Like, but also post colonial as well. And within that there is perhaps less of an analysis of how African elites treated African people, African lower classes and particular Africans that they enslaved. And it's an approach that makes me really uncomfortable because while I understand why.

There'S such a desire to focus on.

Wealth but also heroism, because so much of African history centres on pain centers, on legacies of colonization and being ripped away from homelands and having your land occupied, I completely understand why there is such a desire among Africans, whether continental or the diaspora, to almost offset that with. Yeah, just explorations of actually, you know, Miramusa was one of the richest.

The richest African to ever exist, potentially.

The richest person to ever exist and ruled over the Mali Empire. And I think it makes a lot of people who seek to focus on these glories. And we were also rulers. We were also kings. I think that that focus pulls us away from how African rulers also caused harm, how African rulers were also self interested, just like any other ruler who shoots up to the top of the.

Hierarchy in that way.

I think especially when thinking about women and genderqueer folks, there is an even narrower position that they can take, that they must be selfless mothers, that they are, you know, givers of life nurturers and are often shaped into almost teaching materials for young people, for young kids, for school materials, and to actually grapple with how much harm, how much violence they oversaw, how under Ranavaluna, under Mintwab of Ethiopia, under quite a few of them that I focus on in this book, they expanded really violent structures.

And that has to be engaged with.

Too because that is also African history. And I think that we can't shy away from it. We have to to try and wholly understand these people. We have to absorb everything and rather than trying to turn them into paragons, look at who they were, what they.

Presented themselves as through their actions and go from there.

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[Dani Bird]

Africa is a vast, diverse and deeply complex continent. Do you think certain regions have dominated historical narratives at the expense of others?

[Paula Akpan]

I think that there are some regions.

That are definitely dominated, I would say particularly Ghana as we know it today. But you know, the Gold coast and the Asantes, like a lot of my Ghanaian friends are really glad that I included Daddy Asantwa. I think the Shaka of the Zulus and you know, South Africa. And I think that is also informed by our worldview.

Right.

Because these are British occupied spaces. So gold coast was occupied by Britain, and the British came to occupy the natal area and a lot of south Africa. And obviously were vying with the Boers over there. So I think that has also shaped our understanding.

Which seem to be the most focal African regions.

Because they were English speaking or had English imposed on them, in my personal opinion. I think that there is so much that is made of the pyramids of Egyptian legacies, Egyptian civilization, that over time, has almost positioned them as, I guess, the peak African civilization. Or just a representation of civilization in Africa that, I guess, explorers and anthropologists of the time Weren't seeing replicated in the same way in other African societies. I think there's also. You can't ignore colorism in that as well. I think that the features and skin colors of Egyptians Would have played a.

Huge part in terms of palatability.

Because we saw that with Rwanda and Burundi, for example, that the Belgians believed that the Tutsis, who they described as having ethanol, all of these words essentially to suggest that their long fingers and their long faces, Their straighter noses than the Hutus, who they described as shorter.

And squatter and with wider noses, and.

These differences that they made between different ethnicities, that was very important to who.

They believed was able to rule. So that's why the Tutsis were encouraged, the hierarchy was encouraged by Belgian occupiers.

Because they felt that off the basis of their features. And therefore what that probably represented around.

Their intelligence, because we're also dealing with.

A period of phrenology, that they were better suited. So I think that there is also a place for that.

In terms of which African histories, which African societies, which African rulers are focused on.

I think also that you had colonial chroniclers Creating the most swashbuckling tales. You know, really pumping their accounts, Especially.

With, like, shack of the Zulu, for.

Example, with as many gory details as they could.

They described Ranavaluna as, you know, attempting.

To manufacture these massive scissors to cut her enemies in half. Like, there was such a thirst for details around these far flung societies with uncivilized people that really captured British. And I would imagine. But I didn't explore it deeply for this text, but other western scholars. And I think that also plays a part in which African kingdoms I've had understood as civilizations that were ahead of their time.

I guess I don't even know what I'm trying to describe.

As what people think that African societies look like.

I guess maybe that needs to be.

The starting point, what do you actually.

Believe prehistoric or pre colonial African society looked like?

What do you believe that these societies looked like when they were occupied? Because I think that that is also something that colonizers and occupiers do.

They suggest that the land wasn't being used for anything. They suggest that the people weren't doing.

Anything with their resources, and that's why they had to come in and show.

Them what civilization looked like.

Show them what, I don't know, like.

Tenancy and rights and rent looked like.

Show them what a nuclear family looked like.

Because a lot of missionaries were bringing.

Their wives, their families, as examples of this is what you should be ascribing to.

[Dani Bird]

I think those are really interesting points. And that actually leads me on to my next question, which was something that really intrigued me was your exploration of the sort of counterfactual history, the what ifs of Africa's history. For instance, your book also engages with a fascinating concept called critical fabulation. And I was wondering if you could explain what that is and how you utilized it.

[Paula Akpan]

So critical fabulation, at least my understanding of it.

And it goes back to Saidiya Hartman.

Who'S this really distinguished professor and scholar, not actually or probably doesn't describe herself.

As a historian, but I guess is.

With the work, is trying to broker history and narrative work, but it's looking and appraising what kind of details you have in front of you, often from archives or source material, and pushing against the archive to just imagine otherwise. This isn't to suggest that you just write anything, but I think that it's almost like a radical endeavor where a lot of African and slave people are listed as cargo, are listed alongside gold and mahogany, but actually weren't worth this much. I think critical fabulation actually starts from the point of view that the archive is another site of violence. And we see that, for example, in the fact that African enslaved people, often.

Their existence was only hinted at through.

Ship logs or through any kind of scraps of documents. When you're already looking at the archive, at the archivists, at the historians, as already bringing their biases, their agendas to the history work that they're documenting. I think critical fabulation is just a.

Way of offering a counter history through.

The same or like similar source materials that you have. But I guess in my view, pushing to not humanize, not give voice, because.

That'S not the job or the role.

Of the historian, but I think to at least challenge what is already accepted as fact, what is already deemed unquestionable I used in my introduction the example of the Cape coast ship where officials were ready to present a different view of the history that they felt was palatable to their audiences. The fact that 17 enslaved African men and boys were able to escape and overpower seven white men, it felt unimaginable to them because it went against the.

Order of their society.

So I think when you start at that point where there is a particular.

Agenda to a lot of the colonial sources that we're reading and engaging with.

I think critical fabulation, but also seeking counter histories as a way of taking stock of the violence that is already at play and offer alternatives, but also certain correctives.

[Dani Bird]

If you could have a conversation with one of these historical figures, who would it be and why?

[Paula Akpan]

I think I'd really want to speak to Renvaluna. I'm just fascinated by this ruler of, you know, the kingdom of Imerina, so present day Madagascar, who was so preoccupied with preserving her island kingdom and preserving their way of life against French and British colonizers, who really sought to claim Imarena as their own, that she was willing to essentially purge the island of any hint of foreign influence, including Christianity. That kind of single mindedness, to her absolute detriment. I guess I can't personally wrap my head around it. And I guess the sad fact is that Madagascar was colonized anyway. In spite of her really dogged commitment to self sufficiency, to repelling these western forces. I think that I would just love to get her take on how she's viewed today. Like when I was in Madagascar in Antana Narivo and you know, speaking to local Malagasy folks, so many people either.

Didn'T care for her, didn't know about.

Her, or genuinely hated her and hated kind of what she represented. And I think there was one interviewee I spoke to who sees her actually as, you know, a feminist. I'm not sure if I would use that term, but I understand in terms of like this woman figure. But again, I guess this is the sticky point we get to with African women rulers because the fact that she is a woman doesn't inherently make her good.

Fact that she is an African woman doesn't inherently make her good.

And it's also dealing with the harms.

And her behaviors and her actions.

But it's also knowing that we have been starved, a lot of Africans have been starved of any historical figures that they could claim as their own, that they could claim from their own lands. And when we're still like seeing the ramifications, the Impact of colonization and also neo colonization. I guess a figure like Crown of Eluna kind of standing, you know, firm is also galvanizing. Standing firm as a woman. It's so complex because it is really easy to fall into the identity politics of it as well, and wanting to herald these people because of their identity or what they represented, but also having to grapple with their harm. So I would just be really keen, really, really keen to just see how did she regret? Would she regret how she went about trying to preserve Imareena's sovereignty? Would she do it again knowing that Madagascar was colonized anyway? Like, would she have followed through, knowing that her son was going to immediately.

Unravel her life's work after she died?

Like, what would that have done to her? Or how would that have impacted her? So, yeah, I think she'd be pretty high up on the list.

[Dani Bird]

Your work challenges a lot of mainstream historical narratives. What are some of the biggest misconceptions about African leadership, especially when it comes to women, that you wanted to correct with this book?

[Paula Akpan]

I don't think I went into it with that approach. I think that being a black African lesbian woman kind of brings a particular lens to the way that I approach history work. And for example, the way that I.

Really wanted to explore Nzinga's gender, the.

Way that I talked about the agodiers.

Sexualities as well, and the fact that.

You know, they were engaging women of the palace, but also sex workers and.

Also potentially each other.

I think that my lens means that I'm able to pull out certain things that might potentially be overlooked by other.

Historians, by other lenses.

There were a number of scholars who kind of poo pooed the idea of Yukogye, you know, having sex with each other or doing anything with each other. And I've seen that a lot throughout.

In terms of queerness.

So I guess that also links to my read of Nzinga and trying to honor their plurality. So I think that it's not necessarily me trying to set out to challenge anything. I think that I naturally am moved to certain critical approaches.

I think it trickles through every part.

It's been really focal to the book to really dig into some of the colonial scholars that are quoted and cited, because I think that all too often when it comes to colonial source material, we don't dig around in terms of.

Like, what was that person's vested interests.

And I was discovering that some colonial kind of naysayers of ranavaluna, of various.

Rulers, that they just didn't agree with, that they didn't feel that they were.

Fit to be ruling a kingdom as a woman, but also, you know, as an African and might need some colonial oversight. With some of these critical sources, I discover that this colonial historian actually held a governorship in Senegal or in Madagascar or, you know, often having some sort of tie to the lands that they were studying or kind of writing about.

In these articles, in these books that they were publishing.

I think it's all connected to, I.

Guess, the lens that I view things with.

And I think every historian, every scholar attaches some weight to various parts of.

The histories that they're appraising.

And I think that that is, like we've said, that there is no such thing as objectivity. That's a complete myth, I guess, leaning into that subjectivity in some way and allowing it to sharpen my critiques as well.

My research.

[Dani Bird]

On that note, did you have an audience in mind when you were writing this book? And what do you hope readers are going to take away from the stories of these extraordinary women?

[Paula Akpan]

I was really writing for Africans on the continent, but also in the diaspora. And I guess just anyone that actually wants to engage critically with the histories of Africa, how that history has been presented previously and I guess where we're going with exploring Africa's legacies. But I think focal to my mind was always, always the Africans that will read this. I think that's why it's just been at the forefront of my mind, like throughout, and wanting to do the words and insights of everyone I spoke to, wanting to do their knowledge justice in trying to commit it to the page. I think what also kind of relieves a lot of pressure for me is that I'm trying to see it as.

Just like a contribution, a contribution to.

A growing, expansive canon on African legacies. And that I hope it will potentially spur people on to read more about the individual rulers. But I've just written about 12 like to seek out more. I just, I hope that it sparks.

Like a thirst, but also a critical.

Analysis and that, you know, when someone's reading, I don't know, maybe they somehow.

One day are reading some source material.

From a colonial source. Maybe just like having a few more.

Questions, having a few more questions when.

They'Re told that this is the official history of anything and just always knowing that there is always a counter history and trying to seek out.

[Podcast Host]

That was Paula Akpan, journalist, historian and public speaker, whose book When We Ruled the Rise and fall of 12 African queens and Wives warriors is out now. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.