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Greg Jackson (29:58)

That's right, Canada. An audacious suggestion and only a week and change after this diplomatic carriage ride. Lord Shelburne Answers in his April 28, 1782 memorandum to Richard Oswald that the British government is very against the idea, but with his audacity, Dr. Benjamin Franklin took Richard's threat laced offensive position of Britain only maybe recognizing American independence and put the Scot on defense which is much preferred as they begin the game of peacemaking, treaty making and statecraft. And yes, serious as the outcome will be the process is very much a game, one that Ben continues to play as all the other players slowly gather. In the following months, he insists to Richard, as well as another newly arrived British negotiator, 27 year old Thomas Grenville, whose father was the Prime Minister, largely behind the Stamp act, by the way, that their government provide them with proper credentials. Not permission for preliminary talks, as Richard first brought. Not permission to negotiate with France, as Thomas's credentials show, but to negotiate with the United States. A seemingly small thing, yet one that would force Britain to tacitly acknowledge American independence. Oh, and ever the old newspaper man, Ben also uses his printing press to make a fake Boston newspaper with a fake report of British atrocities carried out on innocent Americans. Recalling that his conversation with Richard and notes that he let the Scot take afterward, included mention of compensating Loyalists. He hopes this forgery of a newspaper will help set a tone of zero sympathy for Loyalists. But Ben isn't the only one playing games. Every nation is. Let me break it down for you. I'll start with Britain. While Richard Oswald whispers sweet nothings about American independence in Ben's ear, hoping to induce the good doctor to deal without including France, British envoys are in America trying to sell Congress on the idea that the United States would be best served by becoming a dominion of the British Crown. We won't get bogged down on the technicalities, but basically this is what Canada, Australia and New Zealand will evolve into at different points between 1867 and 1907. So, yeah, a bit two faced like everyone else in these negotiations. When Ben gets word of this, he writes to Robert Livingston back in Congress. The King hates us most cordially. If he is once admitted to any degree of power and government among us, however limited, it will soon be extended by corruption, artifice and force till we are reduced to absolute subjection. Then there's France, America's ally, right? Well, yes, and let's not forget the crucial help it has given. But as I told you when it became America's ally in episode nine, France is in this for its own reasons. Which is precisely why the French fleets have spent more time fighting the British in the Crew Caribbean than supporting the Continental Army. Meanwhile, France's Minister to the United States, Chevalier de la Luzerne, is lobbying Congress to instruct its diplomats to do as France says in the peace negotiations, so that sneaky Brits can take advantage of them and divide them as allies. Or so he says. In reality, La Luzerne and the French Corps are trying to keep America weak and dependent upon France. In fact, the French have proposed the United States eastern border as the Appalachian Mountains, basically the old proclamation line of 1763 that France hopes will keep the Americans boxed in and in need of them. As for Spain, it has its eyes on regaining the Floridas and intends to extend its North American territories east of the Mississippi river, an idea that France supports. Spain also wants to continue the war regardless of American interests until it can take Gibraltar. Well, gullible or bribeable, Congress eats up La Luzerne's story and instructs its negotiators that June to do what France says. As Congressman Thomas Rodney complains in a letter, the American commissioners are after having obtained independence in all things else to be ultimately governed by the advice of the French court or minister. Good night. See, I've told you in past episodes that the real talent has left Congress, leaving it mostly filled with B listers. Thankfully for the United States sake, the American negotiators really playing in this multi nation statecraft game are the A team. Yeah, Ben isn't alone or not anymore. Another of Congress's appointed negotiators, John Jay, joins him in Paris on June 23. A tall, pale, gangly New Yorker with a prominent aquiline nose, Mr. Jay is a lawyer and former congressman. He's been in Spain since 1780 where he only managed to procure a small loan for the United States. Well, it was a tough assignment, but now the confrontational and argumentative New Yorker is here with smooth talking Ben. When Jay hears he's supposed to kowtow to France, he makes it clear that in his mind Congress could go sit on an ink filled quill. He doesn't give one electrified Franklin flown kite about France's wishes and utterly refuses to follow such orders. We're still in June, but I can best make this point by quoting Jay's September letter to the President of Congress. As an American, I feel an interest in the dignity of my country which renders it difficult for me to reconcile myself to the idea of the sovereign independent States of America submitting in the persons of their ministers to be absolutely governed by the advice and opinions of the servants of another sovereign, especially in a case of such national importance. And to think that's Jay trying to be respectful. Among the first things the two Americans do is prepare a list of what they're going to try and get out of these peace talks. They divide them into two necessary and advisable. There are four necessary 1 Recognition of American independence. 2 Removal of all British troops from American territory. 3 An acceptable territorial boundary settlement, by which they mean a western border reaching all the way out to the Mississippi River. 4 Securing fishing rights off of Newfoundland and other points on the Canadian coast. The advisable terms are also four in one, Britain takes blame for the war. Two Britain pay reparations to Americans for all the violence and destruction it did in the United States. 3 Britain hand over Canada as a new addition to the United States. And four a free trade agreement. Ben sends a letter to Richard Oswald on July 10 that lays all of this out since Lord Rockingham died of the flu just a week and a half earlier on July 1, which Jay also caught shortly after arriving in Paris. Richard sends this list onto the former colonial secretary turned new prime minister, Lord Shelburne. His lordship thinks the advisable category is a bit much, but the necessary items don't seem bad. Great. This means negotiations in Paris can move forward in late July. Or they could, if Jay weren't bothered by Richard Oswald's credentials. Thomas Grenville is of no concern, as he's recalled around this time, but Jay doesn't like that the Scotsman is commissioned to negotiate not with the United States, but with but with the colonies and plantations that doesn't recognize American independence. Still partially open with Vergennes, Ben and Jay discuss the lack of recognition of American independence. In this credential with him, the French foreign minister says it's not a problem that will come together. In the final piece, he also mentions Spain's interest in land east of the Mississippi River. Now, this doesn't ruffle the more trusting Ben, but Jay sees things quite differently. He sees duplicity. He sees that France, Spain and Britain are all trying to play them just from different angles. Smooth operating. Ben thinks Jay's distrust in the French is going too far, though. And when they return home from their discussions with Vergennes that night, the two have it out. It's an unspecified summer evening, likely July 1782. American diplomats Benjamin Franklin and John Jay have just returned to Ben's beautiful stately abode in the village of Passy, about three miles outside of Paris. Both are worn out in body and mind from a long day of discussion at Versailles. So even as Jay tries to calm his soul by lighting up his clay pipe, perhaps those human factors are just too much to overcome. As the duo continue to talk through the diplomatic challenges they face, and Jay suggests that France is too interested in supporting Spain's interests east of the Mississippi and in the Gulf of Mexico, their tempers start to win out. Growing frustrated Ben Questions? Have we any reason to doubt the good faith of the King of France? Jay snaps back. We can depend upon the French only to see that we are separated from England. But it is not in their interest that we should become a great and formidable people, and therefore they will not help us to become so. If we cannot count upon France, upon whom else may we depend? We have no rational dependence except on God and ourselves. Would you deliberately break Congress's instructions? Unless we violate these instructions, the dignity of Congress will be in the dust. I do not mean to imply that we should deviate in the least from our treaty with France. Our honor and our interests are concerned in inviolably adhering to it. But if we lean on her love of liberty, her affection for Americans, or her interest in magnanimity, we shall lean on a broken reed that will sooner or later pierce our hands. Then you are prepared to break our instructions? If the instructions conflict with America's honor and dignity, I would break them like this. And with that, if we are to believe Jay family lore the furious New Yorker hurls his long clay pipe into the fireplace, shattering it into pieces as it slams into the soot covered bricks. Ben and Jay come out of this argument well enough. Historians will differ on their interpretations of Ben's willingness to break with Congress at this point, but as we've seen, Ben's already bent, if not broken, their instructions in dealing with the British. This is a question of degree. Taking the lead as Ben battles gout and kidney stones through most of August and September, Jay sends a messenger to London informing Prime Minister Shelburne that that he's ready to deal, but only if Britain acknowledges American independence. Straight up, through this same messenger, Jay learns of a coded French document showing their opposition to American fishing rights near Newfoundland. The French call the document a forgery, but it isn't. And the New Yorker is only all the more certain that they should blow off Congress's instructions. Meanwhile, Jay's messenger finds that Lord Shelburne is willing to compromise. Though unwilling to recognize American independence outright, his Lordship is eager to get things moving amid challenges to his power at home. In mid September, Richard Oswald's commission changes to say that he is negotiating with Commissioners of the Colonies under the title of 13 United States. Good enough. Finally, things can really get started. But Jay would prefer to have another staunch, iron willed ally here. And so, as September draws to a close, he writes to another congressionally appointed negotiator, currently in the Netherlands, urging him to get to Paris quickly. This is the one and only John Adams.

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Greg Jackson (43:22)

Ah, John Adams. It's been a minute since we hung out with this fierce Massachusetts man about to join Ben Franklin, John Jay, and yes, two Johns can get confusing. So even though we're on a first name basis with the Founders, that's why we're using last names for these two. Anyhow, as I was saying, it's been a minute, so let me give you a little refresher. Along with his diplomatic credentials, a New Englander, Harvard alum and lawyer, John Adams represented the Redcoats charged with murder in the Boston massacre back in 1770 or episode three and he rocked it. He also represented John Hancock when one of his ships got impounded for smuggling, and represented Massachusetts at the first and second Continental Congresses. We also saw him recommend George Washington be named Commander in Chief of the Continental army in episode six and fight like a lion to get Congress to declare independence in 1776 or episode eight. Dr. Benjamin Rush said of Adams, this illustrious patriot has not his superior scarcely his equal for abilities and virtue on the whole of the continent of America. He further claimed to quote the doctor again, every member of Congress in 1776 acknowledged him to be the first man in the House. Thomas Jefferson called Adams our colossus on the floor. In late 1779, Adams became the principal author of the Massachusetts Constitution, a document that includes a Declaration of Rights and divides the government into three an executive, judiciary and bicameral legislature. Ratified in 1780, it is the oldest functioning constitution in the entire world. Yes, you heard that correctly in the strictest sense. The only government that's been around and continuously functioning longer than the US Federal government is Massachusetts state government, and John Adams, more so than anyone else, made it. With those accomplishments, I suppose we can see why Congress would entrust Adams with something as important as diplomacy. The fiery Massachusetts man got his first taste of diplomatic life alongside Ben Franklin on Staten island in late 1776, when the Howe brothers thought they could get the Americans to settle for something less than independence. More soon followed. In 1778, Adams went to France at congress's request, where once again, he pursued America's interests beside the elderly, bespectacled Ben. But here, things soured between the two patriots. I'm going to detail this a bit because it matters. In the 1782 peace talks. Let me start by saying that for all the good we've said of Adams and Ben, we must remember that they are human and have their faults. John Adams is opinionated, stubborn, quick to find offense, and for that matter, quick to give offense, be that with his frank pen or sharp tongue. Meanwhile, as Adams got to know Ben, he learned that the colonial renaissance man doesn't walk on water. Adams was disappointed to find Ben didn't live up to the wisdom dispensed in poor Richard's almanac. Early to bed, early to rise, Ben Woke up around 10. Thrifty Ben was rich and worried little about his extravagance. As the 5am Rising, Adams grew better at french. Through his systematic and careful study, he came to realize Ben's french was sloppy at best. Adams was all the more irritated that the french seemed to find the old Philadelphian's poor grammar and accent endearing. Disliked by the french and feeling unappreciated by congress, Adams and his young son John Quincy, who had accompanied his father to France, returned to Massachusetts in 1779. This afforded Adams the opportunity to work on the state constitution and, of course, to see his brilliant, loving, and patient pen pal, his wife, abigail. Things hit a real nadir with Adams and Ben when the brusque new englander returned to France in February 1780 to await negotiations with britain, a task entrusted at this point solely to Adams. But it might just be, as Adams biographer David mccullough speculates, that french foreign minister vergennes set a trap to get rid of the brilliant yet prickly and opinion giving new englander. In brief, Vergennes asked Adams about congress's decision to devalue the dollar, fully knowing that Adams, a forthcoming and frank man, would defend it. The exchange soon led to vergennes informing Adams that solicitation possupez des enterais des etats unis, that is, the king didn't need your solicitations to take care of the interests of the United states. Vergennes then upped the ante. He had Ben send letters written by Adams that were critical of France to congress. Ben did as instructed, and we can't fault him for doing so as he manages the relationship with France. But Ben didn't need to throw Adams under the bus. Wait, we're in the 18th century. Ben didn't need to throw Adams under the horse drawn carriage by writing a letter to Congress stating his agreement with Vergennes. Yet he did, penning the following on August 9, 1780. Mr. Adams has given extreme offense to the court here. Damn Ben Adams can be quite the meddler. And lacking intact, it's true, but that's cold. Adams soon left France for the Netherlands, where he hoped that something might be done to render us less dependent on France. It was only after leaving that Adams learned of Ben's letter. And this shattered his trust in Philly's famous philosopher. Now in 1782, Adams sees Ben as having attempted to assassinate his character in Congress. Fair or not, he blames the old conjurer. As Adams calls Ben for Congress, expanding the task of peacemaking to a larger commission of diplomats and writes in a letter this that I have no friendship for Franklin. I avow that I am incapable of having any with a man of his moral sentiments. I avow as far as fate shall compel me to sit with him in public affairs, I shall treat him with decency and perfect impartiality. And so, having achieved great success in the Netherlands with Dutch recognition of the US A treaty of commerce and the establishment of the first official US Embassy, Adams does as John Jay's letter requests. He leaves the Netherlands in early October and makes his way to Paris to join the New Yorker and the old conjurer. John Adams arrives in Paris on October 26th. The next day he swings by a tailor and wig maker to get spruced up. And after that, he has John Jay get him all caught up. In brief, Adams learns that negotiations started earlier this month on the 5th. But news of a British victory over the Spanish at Gibraltar slowed things down. The Brits have sent home department undersecretary Henry Strachey to join Richard Oswald as a negotiator. The lanky New Yorker also informs his husky New Englander colleague of Congress's instruction to take orders from the French ministers. Adams is outraged by this, but he's also glad to see that, like him, Jay recognizes that France's help, although imperative, was only given to achieve French goals. That France doesn't necessarily have America's best interests in mind. Or as Adams once put it, France wants to keep us weak, make us feel our obligations, impress our minds with a sense of gratitude. Yes, the Johns are cynical, but they're also right. And despite whatever qualms been had earlier, he sees this well enough by this point too. Thus the American trio is determined to defy Congress and risk the wrath of the French court by leaving Vergier and in the dark as they deal with Britain. As David McCullough so simply yet accurately writes of this, it was a brave decision. Negotiations begin, or rather recommence in earnest on John Adams 47th birthday, October 30, 1782. The three American diplomats are joined by Ben's grandson William Temple Franklin, that is the illegitimate patriot son of Ben's illegitimate loyalist son. He's serving as the trio secretary. Opposite them are Britain's Richard Oswald and Henry Strachey, the latter of whom Adams and Ben met on Staten island in 1776 as he took notes for Admiral Richard Howe in that failed negotiation. The British government hopes that Henry will provide the British delegation with more backbone. They are also joined by the young British diplomat Alain Fitzherbert. He'll take notes. Their negotiations start at 11am and this repeats daily as their conversations rage through a snowy November. But they're getting a lot accomplished. First, American independence is acknowledged. We all knew this was coming. Getting troops out of America won't be an issue either. So that leaves two of Ben and J's previously stated necessary terms yet secure territory to the Mississippi and fishing rights. As for the territorial boundaries, no, Canada is not happening. Sorry, Ben. But in truth, this went almost as well as Ben, Adams and Jay could have hoped for. And much credit is due to Ben, with the exception of the Floridas, which everyone knows Spain might snag in its negotiations. Britain cedes everything to the Mississippi river in one fell swoop. The United States territory just doubled. This includes a lot of turf. The Franco Spanish alliance wants Spain to pick up running from the future state of Mississippi through part of the future state of Tennessee. It also includes British territory considered a part of Quebec since 1774, like the future states of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin. Well then, looks like Ben, Jay and Adams were right to disobey Congress by ignoring France's ministers. Especially since Vergennes has an agent in London working to undermine them. They also discuss private pre war debts owed by Americans to British merchants. J and Ben figure the British army's destruction of property equals things out between the two sides. Not Adams. He insists that debts should be paid. The clause is put in the treaty, but no one's going to enforce it now. Speaking of payments, the British want America to compensate Loyalists whose homes and property have been seized or destroyed. As you can imagine, this is the wrong crowd to ask for Sympathy on this point. It stalls for now, but they've made such significant progress otherwise that Henry Strachey takes a draft of their evolving treaty to London. Meanwhile, Adams finally visits French Foreign Minister Vergennes, knowing that Vergennes tried to tank his reputation with Congress. Adams has no love for this man but politics. So Adams agrees to dinner, and to his surprise, Vergennes comes out in full charm mode. The compliments flow as freely as the Madeira wine. Adams recalls one Frenchman at this dinner telling him that monsieur, vous ete le Washington de la negotiation. Or in English, monsieur, you are the Washington of negotiation. Of course. Vergin hopes that with flattery, he might get Adams to cop up some details on what's happening with the British behind closed doors. Unfortunately for the French, Adams is a big boy. He understands the game. He doesn't say anything. Henry Strachey returns to Paris on November 25th. This will be the final week of negotiations. At some point in it, a fourth American diplomat arrives. Henry Lawrence. Congress sent this South Carolinian and former president of Congress to the Netherlands in 1779. But the British intercepted and arrested Henry, then threw him in the Tower of London as a traitor. Released this past January in a prisoner exchange for none other than Lord Cornwallis, Henry now belatedly joins his fellow Americans in Paris. And he's the last. As Congress's fifth appointed commissioner, Thomas Jefferson never makes it. Citing health reasons, Henry makes exactly one suggestion for the treaty. In leaving America, Britain will not carry away any negroes or other property. A not surprising suggestion given that Henry is a plantation owner and slave trader. Though one might wonder what his late son, the anti slavery Continental colonel John Laurens, whose death I mentioned at the start of this episode, might think. Nonetheless, slave trading. Richard Oswald, who's done business with Henry in the past, is on board and readily agrees to the addition. Only two issues remain in these final days, one of which is Britain's ask that displaced Loyalists receive compensation. With the influx of Loyalists who've moved to Britain, the British delegation has political pressure to deliver. But now Ben becomes the hardliner. Pulling a paper from his pocket, the Philadelphian answers that if America is to pay the Loyalists, Britain can pay for his list of British inflicted damages, which includes stolen cargo from across the states, towns burnt to ash, and let's not forget Ben's own library in Philly. Richard and Henry admit that they don't have a leg to stand on. To save face, they ask the Americans to include a non binding worthless clause in which Congress will quote unquote earnestly recommend that the sovereign states make restitution to loyalists. Ah. This the Americans can't accept. Well, almost. Ben has one more alteration. The clause must exclude loyalists who'd borne arms against the said United States. Wow. Even John Adams thinks Ben is being too harsh, Writing in his journal that Dr. Franklin is very staunch against the Tories. More decided on this point than Mr. J or myself. Well, Ben's probably driven by thoughts of his loyalist son William, the father of his grandson, serving as the American secretary. In these negotiations, Nothing stings quite like deep familial love poisoned by betrayal. During these same days, the two sides are also trying to settle their differences over fishing rights. And like any true New Englander, John Adams is ready to hold fast. It's Friday, November 29, 1782. The British and American delegations have gathered at John Jay's current residence, L'Hotel d'Orleans, and are currently discussing New England's access to fisheries in what you and I would call Canadian Canadian waters. Fishing is an enormous part of New England's economy in the late 1700s, and as British subjects, New Englanders have fished here for centuries. Yet with American independence, that will become illegal unless this treaty expressly gives them the right to continue doing so. The delegations have gone the rounds on it, with John Adams asking, how could we restrain our fishermen, the boldest men alive, from. From fishing in prohibited places? And Ben Franklin arguing that American economic success is British economic success, since they are trading partners. But finally, Adams has had his fill. To him, the right to fish is not a negotiable issue. The stubborn New Englander rises, channeling his courtroom lawyer self, and gives an impassioned speech. Gentlemen, is there, or can there be a clearer right? In former treaties, that of Utrecht and that of Paris, France and England have claimed the right and used the word? When God almighty made the banks of Newfoundland at 300 leagues distant from the people of America and 600 leagues distance from those of France and England, did he not give as food a right to the former as to the latter? If occupation, use and possession have a right, we have it as clearly as you. If war and blood and treasure give a right, ours is as good as yours. Adams says more, but this small taste will do for us. Although the British insist on using the word liberty in much of this article of the treaty, it is also stated that Americans shall continue to enjoy unmolested the right to take fish along the banks of New Newfoundland and other such areas. On November 30, 1782, the day after settling The Loyalist and fishing issues. A preliminary treaty is signed. By calling it preliminary, our American diplomats technically skirt the issue of making peace without the French and leave Ben with the odious task of informing their ally of everything they've been up to. As he does, he also asks Vergennes for a loan of 6 million livres. Seriously? I suppose we could say that kidney isn't the only large type of stones Ben has. Well, Vergin certainly understands doing what's best for one's country. So although upset, he gets over it. And he even gives Ben the loan. It sounds easy, but make no mistake, Stake if it were not for the seductive Philadelphian, this piece could have unraveled the Franco American alliance. The artist Benjamin west undertakes a portrait of the two delegations. Moving left to right, it depicts a lanky, resolute and standing John Jay, a rotund and confident looking John Adams, a pensive Dr. Franklin, an almost angry Henry Lawrence, and the young William Temple Franklin, seemingly lost in thought. But the British delegation is missing from this unfinished work of art. Legend says that they were so angry about the final outcome of these negotiations that they refused to sit for it. I can neither confirm nor deny this assertion. Like everything in life, the treaty isn't perfect. The exact border with Canada and some aspects of America's fishing rights or liberty liberties remain a tad ambiguous. Free trade didn't happen either. But overall the terms are far more than anyone should have expected America to get. Besting the interests of the three most powerful empires in the world. And in defiance of Congress, which despite a few censure minded congressmen quickly forgive their rogue negotiators, Ben Jay and Adams have gained recognition. American independence doubled the size of the confederation and kept fishing rights off of Newfoundland. Wow. Not bad for a dinky broke confederation of nearly powerless republics. And let's note that Ben and Adams also behaved like the civil adults they are the whole time, never letting their personal differences be an issue. After France and Spain finally grow weary of war a year later, it all becomes official as Ben Franklin, John Jay and John Adams sign the definitive Revolutionary war ending Treaty of Paris at L'Hotel D? Hoc on September 3, 1783. More than two centuries later, most historians will still consider this treaty the most remarkable, brilliant and daring achievement in American diplomatic history. And so it's done. The revolution is over. The United States are, as the Treaty of Paris proclaims, free sovereign and independent states. But what does that mean for the Confederated Alliance? Can they settle their own disputes between each other? What about the immense debt that their Congress owes to foreign nations, to the citizens of their virtual various states, as well as the officers and soldiers of the Continental Army. All of these problems remain and are growing worse. But something will be done in another four years at a convention in Philadelphia. But that is a story for another day. History that Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson Episode written by Greg Jackson 1st edition research by Greg Jackson and C.L. davis Production by Airship Sound design by Molly Bach Theme music composed by Greg Jackson Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. 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