182: A Prologue to World War II: US Army Interwar Preparation

Summary

History That Doesn't Suck Episode 182: A Prologue to World War II: US Army Interwar Preparation Release Date: June 30, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 182 of History That Doesn't Suck, host Prof. Greg Jackson delves into the critical interwar period of the 1930s, exploring how the United States Army prepared for the looming threat of World War II. This episode serves as a prologue to the transformative events that would catapult the U.S. Army from a modest 17th-ranked force globally to the preeminent military power it is recognized as today.

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Historical Context: The U.S. Army in the Interwar Period

Prof. Jackson sets the stage by highlighting the stark contrast between the U.S. Army’s status post-World War I and the brink of World War II. He states:

"In the late 1930s, the US army is totally unprepared for what Winston Churchill will later call the Gathering Storm. When Nazi Germany invades Poland in 1939, the US army is ranked a lowly 17th in the world, behind much smaller nations like Portugal."
— [09:45]

This period was marked by significant budget cuts and a general lack of foresight regarding the impending global conflict.

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The Story of Major Pete Hill and the B-17 Test Flight

Prof. Jackson narrates the story of Major Pete Hill and the experimental Boeing Model 299 (later designated the B-17 Flying Fortress). On October 30, 1935, Hill and his crew conducted a test flight that ended in tragedy when the aircraft crashed due to locked rudder and elevator controls, leading to a loss of aerodynamic lift. The incident underscored the challenges and risks associated with pioneering military aviation technology.

"The XB17 has been nothing but a success thus far, so Pete and the flight crew have every reason to relax. But just then, the plane lurches left... and then it plummets straight toward the earth."
— [10:45]

Despite the crash, investigations revealed no structural issues, attributing the accident to control malfunctions. This event highlighted the Army's commitment to advancing aviation capabilities despite setbacks.

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The Influence of Billy Mitchell and the Army Air Corps

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Colonel Billy Mitchell's advocacy for an independent air force. Mitchell's demonstration in 1921, where his pilots successfully sank a captured German battleship, emphasized the strategic importance of air power.

"Billy was tenacious. Actually, he was downright belligerent, getting himself demoted and court-martialed despite many in Congress and the military being on his side."
— [12:30]

Mitchell's efforts ultimately led to the creation of the Army Air Corps in 1926, granting it autonomy akin to the Marine Corps within the Navy. This structural change was pivotal for future military aviation advancements.

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Industrial Mobilization in the 1930s: The Arsenal of Democracy

Prof. Jackson discusses the critical role of American industry in preparing for war. He references the Boeing Company's development of the B-17 and other massive engineering projects like the Hoover Dam, illustrating how industrial capacity was repurposed for military needs.

"But the big thing to me is these companies that did that were not defense. They were the great companies, Ford Motor Company, GM, Goodyear. They just bent that capacity to a war footing."
— [35:01]

This mobilization laid the groundwork for the United States' rapid industrial response during World War II, embodying FDR's concept of the "Arsenal of Democracy."

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Transformation Lessons for the Modern Army: Interview with General James E. Rainey

In a pivotal segment, Prof. Jackson interviews General James E. Rainey of the U.S. Army Futures Command. They discuss how historical insights from the interwar period inform current military transformation efforts.

"Army Futures Command is one of the major commands of the United States Army. And we are primarily charged with transforming the army to ensure war winning, future readiness."
— [16:00]

General Rainey emphasizes the importance of proactive modernization and the integration of cutting-edge technologies to address contemporary threats.

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The Importance of History in Military Training

General Rainey underscores the Army's reliance on historical knowledge to prepare for future conflicts. He reflects on the significance of learning from past successes and failures to enhance strategic and tactical decision-making.

"If you're trying to figure out the future, it's almost impossible. It's really about not getting it really wrong more than trying to get it right."
— [20:46]

This philosophy drives the Army's commitment to comprehensive education and continuous learning among its ranks.

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The Role of Army Futures Command

The episode delves into the mission of the Army Futures Command, highlighting its role in spearheading large-scale transformation initiatives aimed at maintaining the U.S. Army's superiority.

"Army Futures Command and Army Training and Doctrine Command will own the entirety of the process of manning, training, equipping soldiers from first handshake in the first unit to developing the future force."
— [17:13]

This consolidation ensures a unified approach to modernization, encompassing both current capabilities and future innovations.

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Reflections on the 250th Anniversary of the U.S. Army

As the episode was released in June 2025, coinciding with the 250th anniversary of the U.S. Army, Prof. Jackson and General Rainey reflect on the legacy and enduring principles of the Army.

"We've been living free for 250 years, and that's underpinned by the idea that people should do something with their life that is of value beyond just them."
— [38:54]

They celebrate the Army's rich history while acknowledging the continuous need for vigilance and adaptation in the face of evolving threats.

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Conclusion

Episode 182 of History That Doesn't Suck offers a comprehensive exploration of the U.S. Army's interwar preparations that set the stage for its pivotal role in World War II. By intertwining historical narratives with contemporary insights from military leadership, Prof. Greg Jackson provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of military transformation, the significance of industrial mobilization, and the timeless value of historical knowledge in shaping effective defense strategies.

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Notable Quotes:

• Major Pete Hill's Test Flight:
  "But just then, the plane lurches left... and then it plummets straight toward the earth."
  — [10:45]

• Colonel Billy Mitchell's Tenacity:
  "Billy was tenacious. Actually, he was downright belligerent, getting himself demoted and court-martialed despite many in Congress and the military being on his side."
  — [12:30]

• Army Futures Command's Mission:
  "Army Futures Command is one of the major commands of the United States Army. And we are primarily charged with transforming the army to ensure war winning, future readiness."
  — [16:00]

• Importance of Not Getting It Wrong:
  "If you're trying to figure out the future, it's almost impossible. It's really about not getting it really wrong more than trying to get it right."
  — [20:46]

• Legacy of the U.S. Army:
  "We've been living free for 250 years, and that's underpinned by the idea that people should do something with their life that is of value beyond just them."
  — [38:54]

---

This episode is a must-listen for history enthusiasts and those interested in military strategy, offering valuable lessons from the past to inform present and future military readiness.

Transcript

[Kristen Bell]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.

[Greg Jackson]

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[Greg Jackson]

Bye bye Truckee.

[Kristen Bell]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Greg Jackson]

Hello other Truckee.

[Kristen Bell]

Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply. I've never felt like this before. It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you. Does that sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw.com welcome to history that doesn't suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson and as in the classroom, my goal here is to make rigorously researched history come to life. As your storyteller, each episode is the result of laborious research with no agenda other than making the past come to life as you learn. If you'd like to help support this work, receive ad free episodes, bonus content and other exclusive perks. I invite you to join the HTDS membership program. Sign up for a 7 day free trial today at or click the link in the episode notes. It's early in the morning, a bit past 9am Wednesday, October 30, 1935. Poyer P. Hill, or Pete. As everyone knows, this 41 year old mustachioed Great War vet, recently promoted to Major, is doing his pre flight check at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. But he's not alone in his cockpit. Pete's working with his crew of three fellow right field employees and Boeing's chief test pilot, Leslie or Les Tower. Les will be Pete's co pilot once the five men take off inside this still experimental aircraft, Boeing's enormous 103 foot wingspan 15 ton bomber, model 299. Or as it will later be designated by the air Corps, the B17. But you know what? Pete and his crew have their hands full. Let's leave them be while I catch you up on all that's led to this upcoming test flight. First you might notice that I said Army Air Corps, not Army Air Service as it was known in the Great War. So what's going on there? Well, the best Way to understand that is to reacquaint ourselves with great War aviation commander, hero and well known thorn in the side of his superiors, Colonel Billy Mitchell. We first met Billy at the Battle of Saint Mihiel in episode 137 and saw him clash with his superiors in episode 140. After the great War, he was promoted to a Brigadier general and had his planes at the ready to suppress a Union uprising against mine owners in West Virginia in 1921, which we saw back in episode 153. Yes, you remember Billy Mitchell. And the important thing here is that he's a staunch supporter of aviation and the armed forces and has long felt that they needed more independence. The Army Air Service's leaders, like Billy, retreated the same as tank or artillery commanders. Yet the fiery flyboy argued that planes occupied a unique military function that was different from the army or Navy. He proved his point on July 21, 1921, when his pilots dropped seven bombs on the captured German battleship turned test target, the Osfriesland. They sunk it to the bottom of the ocean. To Billy, this demonstrated that the air Service needed to be its own military branch. Ah, but cost cutting press President Silent Cal Coolidge said no cutting government spending across the board. He justified his policy of further reducing the military's already massively reduced spending that we learned about following the Great war in episode 150 with a simple who's going to fight us? But Billy was tenacious. Actually, he was downright belligerent, getting himself demoted and court martialed despite many in Congress and the military being on his side. Sometimes it pays to know when to shut up, Billy. That said, the head of the Air Service, General Mason Patrick, met Silent Cow's budgetary concerns with a compromise that created the army air Corps in 1926 as a separate division of the army rather than a separate branch. This meant they would now share a budget with the army but get their own leadership and operations. Kind of like how the Marines are a part of the Navy but operate entirely separately. This also meant that the Army Air Corps could carry out operations separately from ground troops. Operations like bombing raids. And that's what brings us to the Model 299 or XB17 or YB17 to use this experimental Boeing aircraft's many designations through its pre production development. Building on Billy Mitchell's proven bombing precision back in 1921. The idea is to make an aircraft that can fly long distances with a lot of bombs, say 2,000 miles with 2,000 pounds of bombs at 200 miles per hour. Boeing took on the assignment last year in September 1934. And after 153,000 man hours and $400,000, they were ready for a public reveal by July 1935. While Boeing calls it an aerial battle cruiser, the public prefers the newspaper's nickname, the flying fortress. On August 20, 1935, Boeing's chief test pilot, Leslie Tower, yes, one of the crew that we met at the start of this story successfully flew the enormous armored and armed plane 2,100 miles from Seattle, Washington, to the Air Corps Training center at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. That went well. And today, October 30, 1935, Les is with Air Corps test pilot Pete Hill, checking the whole experimental craft over, prepping for the next test flight. And things look good. So, hey, let's get this fortress in the air. It's now 9:30 in the morning. Seated and ready for takeoff, Major Pete Hill pushes forward on the throttle. Just as he has so many times before, the enormous flying fortress rumbles down the Runway at right field. Inside, the crew feel the entire aircraft vibrate. Their ears ring from the growl of its 4,700 horsepower engines and the roaring whirr of the propellers. Pete pulls up and lifts the sleek aluminum bird into the skies. Boeing's XB17 has been nothing but a success thus far, so Pete and the flight crew have every reason to relax. But just then, the plane lurches left as the wing dips toward the ground, swinging the aircraft a full 180 degrees right back to where they took off from. And then it plummets straight toward the earth. On the ground, Lieutenants Leonard Harmon and Robert Giovannoli race as fast as they can as the metal fortress plummets. It crashes and crumples right in front of them. Oh, God, they've got to act fast. Two crewmen leap out of the aircraft on impact. But as Leonard and Robert arrive at the contorted plane, the gasoline in the punctured wings ignites. Within seconds, the XB is engulfed in flames. Leonard and Robert throw their coats over their heads and and race into the wreckage. Coughing and hacking as they choke on smoke, the two officers manage to pull the rest of the crew out the metallic inferno. Despite severe burns, three of the men, remarkably, will recover. But while Les Tower holds on for three more weeks, he ultimately passes. As for Pete Hill, he succumbs to his injuries in a matter of hours. A few years from now, in July 1939, Utah's Hill Air Force Base will be named in Major Hill's memory. Meanwhile, both Boeing and the army are sure that this crash means the end of the XB17. Indeed, some are calling it too much airplane for one man to handle. But a post crash investigation finds no structural issues or malfunction with the engines. The rudder and elevator controls were locked, causing the bomber to stall. And this. This loss of aerodynamic lift sent the mighty Metal Fortress careening back to the earth. Thus, despite this tragic event, the army feels safe moving forward. It's a good thing too. Soon, growing tensions in Europe and Asia will provide a stern answer to Silent Cal's question of who's going to fight us. Boeing will crank out B17s by the thousands. And in turn, these Flying Fortresses will take their bomb dropping fight to the skies in the most total war humanity has ever waged. Welcome to history that doesn't suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story as this episode comes out in June 2025. It does so shortly after the 250th birthday of the United States army, which was established in June 1775 by the Second Continental Congress. Since its founding in the American Revolution, until today, the Army's motto has been this will defend. And if you'd like to hear the full origin story from 250 years ago, just scroll down to HTDS episode 6. We won't rehash that birth today, but it's worth briefly noting as we come to today's topic, which is the evolution of the U.S. army in the interwar period of the 1930s. Think of this special episode as a prologue to where HTDS storytelling is headed. World War II. In the late 1930s, the US army is totally unprepared for what Winston Churchill will later call the Gathering Storm. When Nazi Germany invades Poland in 1939, the US army is ranked a lowly 17th in the world, behind much smaller nations like Portugal. But within just a few remarkable years, the army will echo its overnight overhaul during the Great War, undergoing an awesome transformation. A transformation that was possible in no small part thanks to a mighty citizenry corps of industry and science. That last part is key, because even as the country is still reeling from the financial gut punch of the Great Depression, US businesses are still building and innovating. You just heard one story of the Boeing Company's investment in developing the B17 bomber, and remember those huge engineering projects we just finished exploring in recent episodes, including the government sponsored Hoover dam, built by six companies? Well, we're going to see how the 1930s innovation and industrial production foreshadowed what American industry could and would do when Uncle Sam calls on it during World War II. In fact, keep six companies in mind, because that wasn't the last you'll hear about certain members of that conglomerate of builders. War is coming, and it's not only the army that will have to transform, it's the American home front, too. The most consequential event in the 20th century is upon us. To understand this historical moment better and to get us into the mindset of what generals from the period, like Army Chief of Staff George Marshall and others must have been thinking, I thought it'd be fun to have a discussion with a current U.S. army general. And my friends, you're in for a treat because I'm pleased to have someone who is specifically charged with continuous transformation and preparation for the next major war, even as we hope that, God willing, that war never comes. My guest today is General James E. Rainey, who leads the U.S. army Futures Command. Yes, he's got four stars on his shoulder straps. The mission of the Army Futures Command is to ensure war winning future readiness. As its name suggests, the General has commanded at every level from platoon to division and has served in numerous combat deployments in both Iraq and Afghanistan during his nearly four decades of service. His full bio is in the episode Notes. As you'll hear, General Rainey and I not only discussed the US Army's founding and transformation and interwar periods, but we also discuss why it's important for military leaders to study history. And so, with no further ado, I'm pleased to welcome General Jim Rainey to history that doesn't suck. 4th of July Savings are here at the Home Depot so it's time to get your grilling on. Pick up The Traeger Pro Series 22 pellet grill and smoker now on special buy for $389 was $5.49. Smoke a rack of ribs or bake an apple pie. This grill is versatile enough to do it all this summer. No matter how you like your steaks, your barbecues are guaranteed to be well done. Celebrate 4th of July with fast free delivery on select grills right now at the Home Depot. It's up to availability.

[Greg Jackson]

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[Kristen Bell]

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[Kristen Bell]

So general, why don't we go ahead and start with what does Army Futures Command do for the U.S. army?

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah, hey, thanks, appreciate that Greg and thanks for having me on. Army Futures Command is one of the major commands of the United States Army. And we are primarily charged with transforming the army to ensure war winning, future readiness. So about eight years ago the army decided to stand up a new four star level Major command. Army Command we call them. And the genesis of that was the complexity and difficulty of modernizing and transforming warranted a major command. And we're the only service that took that approach. We already had a great organization, Army Training and Doctrine Command that has a 50 year wonderful history of deliver an excellence. Big huge part of why our army is what it is. We have Army Forces Command which generates readiness. They own most of the army and are responsible for getting units ready, trained and ready to go to war. Army Material Command, another one of our great teammates that owns an unbelievably complex portfolio of generating and sustaining all the equipment, facilities, munitions that we have. Our piece of that mission is to transform the army. We believe we're the best army in the world right now, best land force. Making sure that statement is true in 2027, 2030, 2035 is why we stood up. Army Futures Command and Army Transformation Initiative was just announced by the Chief and the Secretary of the Army. Largest transformation effort easily in the last 50 years. You know, a generational type transformation across a wide portfolio, you know, equipment and everything. And as part of that, the Army's going to merge Army Futures Command and Army Training and Doctrine Command into a new organization that'll own the entirety of the process of manning, training, equipping soldiers from first handshake in the first unit, be responsible for modernizing the force we have and developing the future force. So it's, it's pretty exciting.

[Kristen Bell]

So could we say this is something of a lesson from the interwar period to never be an army that is not prepared for the next big challenge that might not be foreseeable.

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah, well I'm, you know, I'm super proud of the army and the current leadership of the army has got a clarity about how dangerous the world is right now and the clear understanding of the magnitude of the disruption that is happening in our profession and candidly has a risk tolerance that's commensurate with the seriousness of the threat, and they're taking bold action. So, yeah, I think this is clearly based on the future of, you know, defending the Constitution of the United States, defending the homeland, and making sure that we never surrender that advantage we have as a country.

[Kristen Bell]

You know, General, I don't know if you actually know this. The program I teach in at Utah Valley University is the National Security Program. Yeah, I feel like we could go a very different direction in history right now, but I'm gonna.

[Greg Jackson]

Well, we might need to. We might need to schedule a redo. It's funny you say national security in some settings when I answer the what's AFC all about? Question. Another, you know, people that are less familiar with the military or history, sometimes I describe it as figuring out the nexus between technology and national security. That is a big part of what we do, a lot of other stuff. But in the future side of the army and afc, that's really, you know, that we have the enemies in the world and threat, there's always geopolitics, demographics, global migration. The one that is most disruptive right now clearly, is the speed of technological developments.

[Kristen Bell]

Well, let's go ahead and dive into history, though. A point I'd like to jump onto actually comes from one of the official US army manuals, a primer to our profession of arms. In this book, I understand that each of the chapters begins with a story, which, of course, I love that approach. In fact, a number of my listeners would be familiar with World War I's at the time. Corporal Alvin York, he's featured in there within the manual. If I can quote from its introduction, it says that it is your task to look ahead to the future as well. Our army has an incredible history, but we are the most capable land force in the world because of our ability and agility to meet the challenges of a changing world. So how does the army use history as it's preparing soldiers to look to the future to be ready to meet the challenges of the future?

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah. That manual you're quoting from is Field Manual 1, which we have a lot of doctrine in the Army. It's awesome. It's one of our strengths. That piece is interesting because it is personally written by the chief of staff of the Army. He approves all the doctrine, but he's got the pen on that one. And if you're out there in the Military or you're interested in your army, that'd be the one manual I'd ask people to read because it's exactly that. It's why we have an army and what we owe our country and what it means to be a member of that profession. And the fact that it's replete with history is indicative of the value we place on history as an army. To me, if you're trying to figure out the future, it's almost impossible. I mean, it's a worthy endeavor, but it's really about not getting it really wrong more than trying to get it right. It's very hard to predict the future, as everybody knows.

[Kristen Bell]

Yes.

[Greg Jackson]

So personally, I believe taking advantage of everything that is knowable, you know, so, so understanding the history deeply, which, you know, it's not 100% knowable, but it's in the 90s, especially if you're a topic that's it's well researched, well written on or, you know, some period of time that's well documented or humans that kept good memoirs. So, you know, why would you not, you know, it would be irresponsible professionally to not have a deep understanding of not just military history, but history in general.

[Kristen Bell]

I love hearing you say that it would be irresponsible to not know history.

[Greg Jackson]

It'd absolutely be professionally irresponsible. I mean, history is one of the reasons our army is as good as it is. We invest heavily in military education, leader development and our schools and education are replete with history. Our manuals, I'm sure you know this, but for our listeners out there, 250th birthday of your army, 14 June this year, which is interesting if you've ever seen the army flag, it's got 1775 on it. Yep. And one of the things we point out, not in a boastful way, but very proudly, is we had an army before we had a country. And you know, the army put our country on its feet and kept it there. And we're getting ready to celebrate 250 years of that. So, you know, you show up for basic training in the army, you're not going to go to bed that night before here in some part of our history, and we have that. Me personally, so I'm a little bigger headquarters. I don't have a giant staff, you know, dozen or so, but one of my most valued direct reports is a PhD in military history. We have a wonderful young, young teammate on our team that is a school trained professional library science archivist, you know, whose job is to make sure that we know what there is to know about topics that are important. So it's in our DNA. And not just army history, but military history and the history of the world.

[Kristen Bell]

Lessons to be learned regardless of what flag one's fighting under. Right. You've said train for the known, educate for the unknown. I think you've kind of, even in those last comments you articulate some of what you're getting at. But would you mind kind of further expounding how does education get to the unknown?

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah, I do say that a lot. You know, if you know you're going to have to do something, then we're very good at training for that task. But war has a funny thing of being incredibly unpredictable once it gets going. So educating for the unknown is about learning how to learn. It's about being passionately curious. It's about being intellectually humble. How to think, not what to think. We have a huge advantage as a U.S. army in that our number one thing that we focus on is our people. So we have an all volunteer force which comes at a much higher aptitude levels, say than conscript. We're very proud of the fact that we have an all volunteer force. We have a professional non commissioned officer corps. And the time and energy we put into leader development for our leaders and commanders lets us do different things on the battlefield. So we don't issue orders. Our soldiers don't sit around waiting to be told what to do. They make decisions. You know, they follow orders, but in the absence of orders, they operate under the intent of the mission. And that's something that is a superpower inside a formation. And it's underpinned by making sure that people know how to think and critically that they're well educated. You know, going back to history, you know, if you're going to go somewhere and fight, you probably ought to know everything there is to know about the history of that place and people in that place. And that usually brings you back to reading history.

[Kristen Bell]

You know, as you say that, my mind, and I'd love your reaction to this, my mind goes to George Washington. Trusting Nathaniel Greene to basically just take care of the south sends him down. This is you. My mind goes to Lincoln trying to find a commander that he could really trust. And you know, it took a number of tries and Grant finally really worked out pershing World War I. The man loved his rifles a little too much but you know, was able to turn the corner as tanks are coming in there at the end. And I guess as all that, you know, goes through my mind, clearly, there's a legacy in the US Military of trusting people down the chain to be able to make some decisions. Do you think that there's a particular point where that really happened, or is that a George Washington example that has been pretty uniformly followed? Any thoughts?

[Greg Jackson]

I've never thought through the origin of that idea. You can go back as far as the beginning of the United States army and find that characteristic in great leaders. Gettysburg, you know, Chamberlain at Gettysburg. So I'd have to unpack that. I don't know if it's in our DNA. Our birth was like throwing off the yoke of people telling us what to do and being free. True.

[Kristen Bell]

Right.

[Greg Jackson]

You know, yeah, that might be the case. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not just cheerleading them. And there are people that have exercised initiative and made really big mistakes, of course. And the ability to underwrite honest mistakes is something that fosters that kind of environment. And, you know, we have people that don't practice it as well as others. I mean, there's. We've all bumped into people that didn't get the memo about trusting people and tend to micromanage. But the ecosystem and, you know, they don't do well in the army if they don't have the ability to trust and empower subordinates.

[Kristen Bell]

Right.

[Greg Jackson]

You know, Sherman and Grant, it's like the dudes were on a group chat every night, you know, except for they couldn't talk to each other. You know, I mean, you know, pre. Continuous communication, when it was a necessity to trust people, not just to make decisions in the absence of guidance, but to make the decisions you would have made if you were standing next to them. That's really the superpower.

[Kristen Bell]

Right. Well, and then to. So I would imagine those beneath you in the chain when they make those decisions.

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

Whether they actually turn out to be precisely what you would have wanted or not. That there's got to be a piece of that. Right?

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah. I mean, you can delegate the authority to make a decision. You don't delegate the responsibility for the decision. So training and developing people to operate that way is in everybody's interest.

[Kristen Bell]

You know, I think about Washington, who, as those of us who've studied the history know, he's a great leader. He's. He's not the per se, greatest general in terms of battles won, but he's a man who knew how to learn from those losses. And those who were underneath him were inspired by him. My friends, if you need a refresher on the leadership of the first Commander in Chief of the Army, General George Washington. I invite you to check out htds Revolutionary War episodes, particularly number eight, which covers George's year of hard knock lessons on the battlefield in 1776. We'll be right back with more from my conversation with General Rainey after this short break.

[Greg Jackson]

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[Kristen Bell]

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[Greg Jackson]

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[Kristen Bell]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com Talk about the interwar period. Why don't we go there since that's where history that doesn't suck is currently at. I'll set it up a little bit. The army of the time has basically gone back to where it was pre World War I in a number of ways. Before World War I we were ranked number 17th in the world and we're back to that number 17th ranking as we hit the eve of World War II. Obviously night and day difference from the 21st century US Army. And I imagine while it's my experience in the classroom, a lot of my students, they do not grasp that the world they know in which the United States is this top military, that the way it's been their entire lives. That's only been since World War II. And on that we've continuously been in that space, what would you say are the biggest distinctions or lessons, things that you would pull out of the 20s and 30s?

[Greg Jackson]

And I should have done a safety brief and up front, I am a passionate consumer of history. I'm not a certified professional historian. I'm a infantry officer by trade. I've always loved history and I read voraciously and have always used it to kind of, you know, catch up for gaps in my education before I came to value it later in life.

[Kristen Bell]

But that's how a lot of people go. That's all right, General.

[Greg Jackson]

So I'll answer your question, but a little bit different. So interwar periods. So if you're trying to figure out the future and how to transform an army, how to build an army, which has been not just my job now, but a couple of the last jobs I've had have been primarily that I believe the most informative periods to study are in fact the interwar periods. You know, adaption in combat. You know, there's lots of things that happened during the wars. But the most interesting, useful, informative periods of time, in my opinion are in fact the times in between wars and what our army did. Two of them come to mind. The period between World War I and World War II and really the 30s, late 30s. If you're trying to hone in, I don't want to drop name, drop a whole bunch of books, but there's a great book called Freedom's Forge. That's the story of how the United States brought its industrial might to bear. We knew the war was coming before the war. Roosevelt Knutson, captains of industry, which is as much responsible for us winning the war as anything else. So how we did that is kind of interesting now because what are we talking about now? The defense industrial base, the American industrial base. Can we rapidly manufacture? Could we move to a war footing? There's a lot to be said. And then the other one is as the United States came out of Vietnam up to Desert Storm and then to desert storm to oaf one type time.

[Kristen Bell]

Frame which to define that is 1990 desert storm or the first Iraq war, to the 1999 NATO air campaign in Yugoslavia known as Operation Allied Force or OAF one.

[Greg Jackson]

So how do we take an army coming out of a dark, dark period and turn it into the premier fighting force, modernized our people, our equipment, moved to an all volunteer force. So Books like Prodigal Soldier, Real Soldiering, There's a couple great pieces in there.

[Kristen Bell]

We'll add links to those books in the episode notes for listeners.

[Greg Jackson]

And then studying the leaders, because every successful modernization transformation effort that I'm aware of, you can kind of associate it with a human being. You know, so throwing around terms and organizations and industry did this and Congress did that, military did that, is less useful than Admiral Rick over, you know, John Boyd Oppenheimer. I mean, like the humans who did it and studying them. So I don't know if that answered your question, but I, I didn't know you were currently in an interwar period phase, but that's a good place to be, I think.

[Kristen Bell]

Well, if I can maybe drill down just a little bit more on that. We've just done a number of episodes on the Hoover Dam, Golden Gate Bridge, you know, a lot of infrastructure that's being built, despite the fact that we're in the depths of the Great Depression. And as you know, as my listeners will soon be hearing, the arsenal of democracy, to quote fdr, is a major component of the United States, you know, of the Allies winning World War II. I'm not in the habit of quoting Joseph Stalin on the regular, but, you know, he, I believe he said, what was it the war was won by British brains, American brawn and Russian blood. And I always kind of took the brawn to mean really American industry. So this arsenal of democracy, right, these companies in the US that are cranking out just incredible numbers of planes, tanks, you name it, we're not only arming the United States, we're arming our allies. In fact, my grandfather, Grandpa Jackson, he was in the Persian Command during World War II. He spent the war moving US war material up to our then Russian allies. So this stuff hits home for me even. Is there anything in particular about all that production in the 30s that you either find particularly interesting or you think about in terms of the presentation?

[Greg Jackson]

Absolutely. So starts with the President realizing we weren't at war, but it was indications and warnings. It was crystal clear there was a sense of urgency, you know, Congress supporting the President's efforts with money. Right. Because that matters. But, but the big thing to me is these companies that did that were not defense. You know, they weren't. There wasn't a big defense prime industry. They were the great companies, Ford Motor Company, gm, Goodyear. They just bent that capacity to a war footing and were able to give way together the unity of effort across the country to do that. And there's people that you Know, we have a serve more of a service based economy versus the manufacturing based economy we had. Now. There's a lot of talk about manufacturing capacity, human capital. I'm a little more optimistic on American people in time of crisis. You know, it would be. It would not be smart to underestimate America's ability to do something if it was existential. I don't think there's a limit on what we could do. You know, the materials, stock bomb materials. Can you do it? The amount of sanctuary they had, you know, we weren't fighting in the continental United States. That may or may not be true. Next time we fight, depending on who we're fighting. So it's a complicated problem. The big takeaway is they got going. You know, they didn't wait until the war started. It was early.

[Kristen Bell]

Leaning into it, hence Futures Command. Thinking about what's coming.

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah, yeah. It's not just Futures Command. I mean, the Army's crystal clear. I mean, going back to the Army Transformation Initiative, it's, it's really about a big giant. Part of it is, is looking at the things we have and that we were planning on buying and saying, okay, these aren't the things we're going to need. Based on the changes over the last 24 months in warfare and stopping spending, we take very seriously the stewardship of the resources we're given by the taxpayers and by Congress. So with the money we have, we gotta buy different things, we gotta buy them faster, we gotta buy them differently. And to do that, we gotta free up some money. So there's a clear sense of urgency and understanding that getting going. There's a great book, America's First Battles. I'm sure you've read it. We kind of got a track record in the US of not having a great entry into conflict. You know, the first fights don't go great. And our superpower has always been, okay, didn't go great. What do we learn? What do we need to do? Fix it. Fix it and then, you know, counterattack. You can call it an assumption. I would say it is a fact. But it's at least a pretty, really, really solid assumption is there's not going to be a chapter of that book about losing the first fight in the next war and then recovering from it. I mean, we are not going to have that luxury. And even if we did, we don't believe in sacrificing our most, most valuable talent to learn some lesson that was knowable. So the whole point to me of that period of time is the whole country, the Whole military, the whole army needs to be doing everything we can at the fastest possible speed to continue to deter our enemies, to prevent a war that nobody wants. But if it happens, we're going to have to win fast.

[Kristen Bell]

So, General, let's go ahead and lean into that a little bit. We've talked some history, as I said. You know, I do teach this national security program and you've really got my interest piqued. Now, I want to take advantage of your mind a little bit while I've got you. If in the 30s it was about production and not that that won't be and isn't a component in the 21st century, what do you think are perhaps things that maybe the general public isn't seeing or kind of taking for granted that we need to be worried about or, you know, is that AI perhaps? Or what are those unknown variables that to get back to your philosophy. Right. Train on what you know and educate for the unknown.

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

What should we be looking at right now?

[Greg Jackson]

Well, for our citizens, of which we are all, you know, part of, you know, the importance of service. If you look at the history of our country, it has been replete with the idea that, you know, we're very, very privileged to live here and that freedom is not guaranteed. It's, you know, it's every generation to every generation the respons to pass it on. And we have an incredible privilege of living in the freest country in the world. And that's underpinned by the idea that people should do something with their life that is of value beyond just them. It doesn't mean, you know, everybody has to put on a uniform. It's not for everybody. But, you know, serving in your community, coaching sports, teaching public school, being in law, you know, first responder, law enforcement, nursing, small business, job creation. That is something I'm not sure that everybody, as busy as we all are, understands that the idea that doing something with your life that is bigger than you and helping your fellow citizens is a gigantic part of us having what we have, that's a little more ethereal.

[Kristen Bell]

But I agree with you.

[Greg Jackson]

But yeah. And supporting the men and women who do serve, which is very good, I think on the more technical thing is the world is changing at an unprecedented pace, to state the obvious. But in terms of the military, we are probably at the most disruptive period of time in the history of military affairs. The closest I could come would be that Pre World War II people are inventing tanks and airplanes and radios. You know, there have been some smokeless powder and, you know, the railroad, the telegraph, precision munitions. More recently, I mean, there have been some giant revolutions in the history of warfare, but we are, we are absolutely in the midst of one right now. And what's different this time is there's no. All those times it was about a big disruption and then people figured it out and then, you know, boom. This one is unknowable. I mean, no one is ever going to wake up and go, okay, I figured out the UAV problem or I figured out autonomy, or, okay, we're good on AI for the next decade. I mean, it is a perpetual. So the disruption is unprecedented in terms of magnitude. But more concerning is it appears to be constant and with no end in sight. So paying attention to what happens with AI, you know, whether you're government officials or citizens or in the business world or in the military world. So, you know, the nexus of AI and synthetic biology, you know, agentic AI and humanoid robots, I don't know what's going to happen. But the best AI people I know that I talk to, who I think are the best in the country will tell you, you know, we're like six months at a time figuring this out. Moore's Law for AI appears to be in the, you know, doubling in capability with. No, no insight.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, we are recording this in 2025. And as you pointed out, this is the 250th anniversary of the Army. We're also 80 years out from World War II. Both of these significant milestones, anniversaries, you know, are they resonating with within the ranks? What's the army doing to reflect upon?

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah, well, I just got a note from one of our great division commanders, Dave Gardner, who's commanding the 101st. He's over in Normandy right now celebrating the 81st anniversary.

[Kristen Bell]

I mean, I will note we are two days away from D Day. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. As of the time of this recording.

[Greg Jackson]

Yeah. And I think, you know, if you could never pick the one point in the history of the army, that was the highlight. You know, we're a highlight reel. Keeping America free for 250 years. So but that's up there, you know, and the greatest generation, you know, the leaders, not, not just the famous generals, but you know, the Dick Winters and Audie Murphy's. I mean, it is replete with citizen soldiers through professional soldiers, NCOs, volunteers, draftees, men, women. You'd be hard pressed to find a finer example of the United States of America manifested victory in World War II. The 250th birthday is, you know, that, that, you know, more cowbell on that, you know, 250 years. And we're very, very proud of that in the army, you know, we fight as a joint force. We don't compete with the other services, we don't compete with other great institutions. You know, we're just proud of being the dominant land force in the world with all of our joint teammates. But 250 years of excellence, you know, we've been big, down, good, bad, but steady, constant. This will defend. You know, that's our motto. Right. So we believe in the Constitution. You know, we swear an oath to the Constitution. And in our recent history, it's 100% volunteers doing that on behalf of their fellow citizens. So, yeah, we got, we got a fair amount of pride about that.

[Kristen Bell]

Absolutely.

[Greg Jackson]

I could talk for hours on the interwar period. The way you can take a guy like Fox Connor. I don't know if you're familiar with who mentored the World War II generals and you know, Marshall and Eisenhower's relationship, you know, that everybody thinks was just in combat.

[Kristen Bell]

Yes. General Connor was part of Blackjack Pershing staff in World War I.

[Greg Jackson]

Reading about how that manifested itself. So.

[Kristen Bell]

Right.

[Greg Jackson]

I say all that to say we take mentoring and you know, as you get older in this profession, the responsibility to pass that on is something, you know, we take real seriously. So this has been more of an opportunity for me than something to do. So I appreciate you guys.

[Kristen Bell]

Oh, thank you. Really.

[Greg Jackson]

I hope everybody in America takes a minute to celebrate our great army's birthday and reflect on the privilege of living in this country guaranteed by our military.

[Kristen Bell]

Well said. Thank you. Well, my friends, with that, HGS salutes all who have served. And a special thanks to General Rainey staff for arranging this interview, including Lieutenant Colonel Jamie Dobson and Captain Nick Beavers. If you enjoyed this conversation a lot more, I invite you to check out the HTVS membership program. Right now you can hear a bonus story about Fox Conner, whom General Rainey referenced as an important mentor to George Marshall, Dwight Eisenhower and other pivotal leaders will encounter in upcoming World War II narrative episodes of HTDS. HTDS members get extra stories like this one and can listen to all episodes ad free on the most popular podcast apps like Spotify and Apple. Sign up for a free seven day trial at hgvspodcast.com members or click the link in the episode notes. History that Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by by me, Greg Jackson. Episode Produced by Dawson McCroft with writing and research assistance by Will King and Ella Henchardson Production by Airship Sound design by Molly Bach Theme music composed by Greg Jackson Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Airship. For bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted in writing this episode, visit htdspodcast.com HTDS is supported by [e-mail] Membership My gratitude to Kind souls provide funding to help us keep going. Thank you and special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Ahmad Chap, Andrew Neeson, Andy Thompson, Anthony Pope, Hart Lane, Bob Stimmon, Brad Davidson, Brian Goodson, Ronwyn Cohen, Bruce Hibbert, Carissa Sedlak, Harry Bigot Colt, Charles Clenden, Carly Mages, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, Pauline Martin, Dan G, David D. Neebrush, David Rifkin, Dante Spencer, Donald Moore Chiliado Elizabeth Chris Jansen, Ellen Stewart, Ernie Lomaster G2303 Harry Spell, George Sherwood, Gareth Griffin, Henry Brunges, Holly Hamilton, Jake Gilbreth, James Bledsoe, James Blue, Jamie Creer, Jeff Marx, Jeffrey Moose, Jennifer Ruth, Jiska Popic, Joe Dobas, John Booby, John Frugal, Dougal, John Keller, John Messmer, Don Oliveros, John Rudlevich, John Schaefer, Jonathan Shepp, Jonathan Turrell, Jordan Corbett, Joshua Steiner, Dustin M. Spriggs, Dustin May K, Karen Barthaldon, Carl Friedman, Ken Culver, Kim R. Kim Reninger, Kristen Pratt, Kyle Decker El Paul Doringer Orange Newton Bauer, Linda Cunningham, Mark Ellison, Matt Siegel, Bel Cassio, Melanie Jan Nick Seconder, Nick Caprell, Noah Hoff, Owen W. Sedla, Reese Humphries, Wadsworth, Rick Brown, Robert Drazovich Rock Day Salisante, Sarah Trewith, Sarah Thiessen, Sean Baines, Stacy Ritter, Steve Williams Creepy Girl Thomas Churchill, Thomas Sabbath Ham and Sarah Turner, Tom Stafka, Zach Green, Zack Jackson Goy MIA Two weeks Where I'd like to tell you a story.