History That Doesn't Suck – Episode 190

An Epilogue to US Pre-WW2 Turn from Isolationism to Interventionism and the Influential Americans in London Who Brokered the FDR-Churchill Bromance
Host: Prof. Greg Jackson | Guest Host: Prof. Lindsey Cormack | Guest: Lynn Olson | Date: October 13, 2025

Overview

This "epilogue" episode serves as a reflective book club-style discussion, recapping the narrative of US isolationism to interventionism in the build-up to World War II, as covered in HTDS episodes 183–189. Prof. Greg Jackson and Prof. Lindsey Cormack examine America’s reluctant but inevitable move toward World War II involvement. The central focus is on a trio of influential Americans in wartime London—Ambassador John Gilbert Winant, businessman Averell Harriman, and journalist Edward R. Murrow—whose efforts helped broker US support for Britain and laid the foundations for the pivotal FDR-Churchill partnership.

In the second half, Cormack interviews historian and author Lynn Olson about her book Citizens of London, highlighting the personal relationships and dramatic circumstances that changed the course of world events.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

[04:01] Revisiting Isolationism in American Foreign Policy

• Historical Roots:
  The US tradition of avoiding European entanglements dates to Washington and Jefferson, who urged detachment from Old World conflicts.

  “We can be friends...we're not looking to really commit here to anything ever to anyone.”
  — Greg Jackson (05:04)

• American Geography:
  The psychological comfort of the Atlantic and Pacific as barriers, even as technology eroded this separation.

  “Americans still see the Pacific and Atlantic oceans as these massive natural barriers…That just aren't the great barriers they once were.”
  — Greg Jackson (05:27)

• Domestic Preoccupations:
  Americans preoccupied with recovering from the Great Depression tended to support non-involvement.

  “They're still recovering from the Great Depression, they've got their own economic hardships...So to me, I sort of give an understandable pass...”
  — Dawson McCroft (05:56)

[08:34] The Road to War: Treaty of Versailles and Ideological Extremes

• Consequences of Versailles:
  The treaty’s punitive terms set the stage for German (and Italian) resentment and reaction:

  “It essentially sets up World War II...this all but paved the path to a harsh reaction from Germany.”
  — Greg Jackson (08:34)

• Rise of Fascism:
  Mussolini's fascism inspired by economic frustrations; Hitler adapts and radicalizes the model further.
• Defining Fascism (10:44):
  Jackson outlines fascism as 1) blood-and-war obsessed nationalism, 2) authoritarian one-party state, 3) tribal over individual/state over civil rights, 4) flexible economics to serve state.

[14:12] US Confusion About "Isms" and the Dangers of Extremes

• Difficult Choices:
  Americans and elites struggled to distinguish between the risks posed by fascism, Nazism, and communism.

  “It's easier to say, let's not get involved.”
  — Dawson McCroft (14:09)

• The Horseshoe (or "Torus") Theory:
  Both hosts discuss how far-left and far-right extremes begin to mirror each other in authoritarianism and the loss of liberty.

  “Those extreme differences ultimately come to the same...a loss of liberty and freedom in so many senses.”
  — Greg Jackson (11:19)

[17:26] FDR’s Leadership and Shifting Public Opinion

• Domestic Policy Shields:
  FDR's New Deal likely blunted extremists’ appeal by lessening American desperation.
• The Political Reality:
  FDR’s third term ambition hinged on continuity in dangerous times.
• Rise of the Draft:
  Selective Training and Service Act of 1940—America’s first peacetime draft—signals readiness for possible war, passes by bipartisan (but not universal) support.

  “It's incredible to have had that done—to...make sure our military readiness is up to it before we've agreed to enter this war.”
  — Dawson McCroft (21:24)

[24:39] Bipartisanship and Wendell Wilkie’s Role

• Unusual Political Cooperation:
  Wilkie, the 1940 GOP challenger, supported FDR’s interventionist policies, even after losing—building rare trust:

  “FDR sending his former adversary...as his emissary to the UK, to the most important ally the United States has.”
  — Greg Jackson (26:48)

• Reflection:
  Contrasts this era’s ability for cross-party trust and unity with today’s political climate.

[27:36] Influencer Americans in Wartime London

• Foreshadowing the Interview:
  Prof. Cormack notes that non-state actors—journalists (Murrow), diplomats (Winant), businesspeople (Harriman)—shaped decisions in London by influencing both public opinion and key governmental relationships.

  “They are really the influencers who do turn and pull levers on the decision makers.”
  — Dawson McCroft (27:36)

[29:40] Interview: Lynn Olson on Citizens of London

[30:49] Contrasts: Joseph Kennedy vs. Edward R. Murrow

• Ambassador Joseph Kennedy:
  Isolationist, “very appeasement minded,” and unpopular in Britain.

  “He really thought that we needed to get along with Hitler, that the US should not ever think of defying Hitler, you know, to let him have whatever he wanted.”
  — Lynn Olson (30:49)

• Edward R. Murrow:
  Helped invent overseas broadcast journalism, vivid in painting "you-are-there" radio narratives, and overtly advocated for the British cause.

  “He felt very strongly that America would be in deep trouble if Britain was defeated. And he made that quite clear in his broadcasts.”
  — Lynn Olson (34:11-35:12)

[36:55] Murrow and the London Blitz

• Humanizing the War:
  Murrow immersed himself in the same dangers as Londoners, bringing vivid immediacy to US listeners:

  “He made it come alive for Americans in a way that I don't think anybody else could quite do…”
  — Lynn Olson (36:55-40:12)

[40:12] Journalism vs. Propaganda

• Objectivity vs. Advocacy:
  Murrow believed true objectivity was impossible in the face of evil; both BBC and Murrow sought to "tell the truth" rather than propagandize.

  “He was certainly very outspoken in his broadcast, making it clear to Americans that he didn't think that America should stay out of the war. [...] But I wouldn't call it propagandizing.”
  — Lynn Olson (42:53)

[43:27] Three Influential Americans: Harriman, Winant, Murrow

• Averell Harriman:
  NYC elite, businessman, driven to “help business recover" and become useful to Roosevelt as Lend-Lease administrator in London.
• John Gilbert Winant:
  Modest, empathetic, Republican former governor, competent in connecting with everyday people, trusted by FDR.

  “He managed to convince the people of New Hampshire that he was genuine and he really, really, really cared about them.”
  — Lynn Olson (45:49)

• FDR’s Use:
  Both become crucial intermediaries for FDR in England.

[47:54] Building the Roosevelt-Churchill Relationship

• Mutual Suspicion:
  Early Anglo-American relations hampered by distrust and ignorance; Winant and Harriman play “translators” and trust builders.
• A Pivotal Moment:
  Urged Churchill to level with FDR about Britain’s dire financial state—leading to the Lend-Lease Act.

  “It really began when Roosevelt first introduced Lend Lease and when it actually started getting going. I mean, there's just no way that the British could have survived without American aid.”
  — Lynn Olson (51:36)

[53:44] The Symbolic Moment: Pearl Harbor

• Personal Ties at World-Shaking Moments:
  December 7, 1941: Murrow is with Roosevelt, Harriman and Winant dine with Churchill. Their influence is directly entwined with the leaders as decisions are made.

  “What these three men had worked very hard to do...had paid off. That the United States, it took the Japanese bombing of Pearl harbor, but America was now at war and everything was going to be different.”
  — Lynn Olson (54:06)

[55:44] Appreciating Contingency and Individual Agency

• History Was Not Inevitable:
  Olson stresses the uncertainty in 1940-41 and the decisive impact of personal relationships and advocacy.

  “It's through people and it's through their actions. It is not just an impersonal force that happens...”
  — Lynn Olson (56:13, 59:53)

[61:23] The Human Dimension (“Wartime Love Affairs”)

• Personal Lives in History:
  All three men became closely involved with Churchill’s family or circle, reflecting both the intensity and the close-knit nature of wartime London’s elite.

  “War can be a great aphrodisiac...there was certainly this mentality in London that, you know, live for today because tomorrow you may die.”
  — Lynn Olson (61:36)

Notable Quotes

• On American attitudes:

  “We want to stay out of that mess...We can be friends, we're not interested in a relationship, friends with benefits.”
  – Greg Jackson (05:04)

• On FDR’s leadership:

  “Americans do not like the draft. That cuts against that…whole concept of liberty. We like a volunteer force.”
  – Greg Jackson (21:41)

• On the uncertainty before Pearl Harbor:

  “It could have gone so wrong so many times during that period. It was not a given…when you look at the situation…suspicious leaders…friendship…was not there.”
  – Lynn Olson (56:13)

• On individual agency:

  “What I take from all that I’ve learned…is how important individuals are…my big thing as a historian is to underline the importance of people in making history.”
  – Lynn Olson (59:53)

Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:59 — Opening remarks: Purpose of the epilogue episode
• 04:01 — Roots and rationale of US isolationism
• 10:44 — Defining fascism and ideological confusion in the 1930s
• 17:26 — FDR’s domestic policy and leadership in building readiness
• 21:41 — Passage and significance of the first peacetime draft
• 24:39 — Wendell Wilkie, bipartisanship, and trust
• 27:36 — The iceberg of public vs. private influence in London
• 29:40 — Interview with Lynn Olson begins
• 30:49 — Contrasting Joe Kennedy and Ed Murrow
• 36:55 — Murrow covers the Blitz
• 40:12 — Journalism vs. propaganda
• 43:27 — Profiles: Harriman, Winant, Murrow
• 47:54 — Building trust between Churchill and Roosevelt
• 51:36 — Lend-Lease and British morale
• 54:06 — December 7, 1941: The symbolic role of the three Americans
• 55:44 — Counterfactuals, importance of contingency in history
• 61:23 — The “affairs” and personal lives of the American trio
• 65:13 — Closing gratitude and preview of upcoming episodes

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping yet detailed review of the United States’ shift from isolationism to reluctant intervention, framed by the stories of key Americans in London whose actions, advocacy, and personal relationships decisively shaped both public opinion and high-level diplomacy. Through conversation, analysis, and Lynn Olson’s expert perspective, the episode stresses that history’s course was neither inevitable nor impersonal—but crafted by individuals who stepped outside the expected script.