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History That Doesn't Suck
192: A Conversation with Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein: The American Revolution and WWII
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History that Doesn't Suck is driven by a simple mission to make learning legit, seriously researched history more accessible through entertaining stories. If you'd like to support the work we do and receive ad free episodes, bonus content and other exclusive perks, we invite you to join our membership program. Sign up today for a seven day free trial at htdspodcast.com membership or click the link in the episode notes. Hello my friends, this is Professor Greg Jackson and welcome to a special episode of History that Doesn't Suck. We're going to return to our narrative episodes of World War II soon, continuing toward the United States official entry into the fight on that date, which will live in infamy, to quote fdr. But today I'm sharing with you my conversation with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns and his co producer Sarah Botstein about their latest film, the American Revolution. I'm confident that none of you listening today need an introduction as to who Ken is and the importance of his contribution to the telling of American history. But you may not know that Sarah has been a longtime collaborator with Ken on such films as the US and the Holocaust, the the Vietnam War, Prohibition, Jazz, the Wars, and others. I got to attend a luncheon and screening of this new film with Ken and Sarah in Newark, New Jersey. And I was proud to host a community screening in Salt Lake City for PBS Utah. So I've had the privilege of seeing the work in advance and no surprise, it's excellent. A and so I was grateful for the opportunity to speak with both Ken and Sarah about the American Revolution, but also their World War II docuseries, the War. As you'll hear, we discussed the continued relevance and benefit of studying those two events. Two of the most important events in American history. But first, a few quick reminders of what you can find on our website. First tour dates where you can come see me storytelling on stage with live music and video. I hope I'm passing by somewhere near you soon and that you'll come out for a great night with your family, friends and neighbors. Second, the HTDS membership program. HTDS will always be widely available, supported by ads. However, our membership program offers ad free episodes delivered early, plus extra stories and deep dives. For example, right now you can listen to an extra story narrated by me about the birth of the United States Marine Corps, which celebrates its 250th birthday November 10, 2025. Access that and other exclusive stories by visiting htvspodcast.com membership or clicking the link in the episode notes to start a free seven day trial. And now, Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein. Ken, you said during the screening of the new film in Newark, New Jersey, that, and I'm quoting you, the American Revolution is the most important historical event since the birth of Jesus. You were speaking about the event itself, of course, not the film. But did I quote you correctly?
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B
Yeah, I said the birth of Christ. I did it somewhere along the road. I started saying it, I think, not as a provocation, but as a way to sort of sponsor people to think about world history and to offer. And so we've it's actually sponsored some pretty good conversations, the most recent of which was a French woman who unremarkably suggested the other night in Providence that it was the French Revolution that was much more significant than the American Revolution. But I love to have that sense. I do think that the Old Testament says that there's nothing new under the sun. And on July 4, 1776, I think there was something brand new under the sun, at least for a moment. And that was the creation of the United States. People had been for the most part, subjects before that. Now they were citizens with all of the responsibilities and the complexities of trying to manage what would turn out to be a democratic institution. And I, I think it's sort of good to take stock. The revolution recedes in our understanding because there are no photographs, there's no newsreels. It's sort of smothered in gallant, bloodless myth. And it seems to be just for most people about guys in Philadelphia thinking great thoughts, which is of course the main story. But there's so much more to it. It is a really long, bloody revolution and a civil war and a world war. And it was sort of important for us to sort of try to gather up all the threads in the film that's taken us nearly a decade to make and to spend these last months sort of talking all around the country about it. And one way to sort of signal that you wish to get somebody's attention is to say something like that. Which I believe, and I'm perfectly willing to. To defend. I didn't say it in a Madison Avenue fashion. I said it hoping to draw people into sort of thoughtful and meaningful conversations.
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Well, Ken, I want to say it resonated with me, as you said. I certainly didn't take it as a provocation. I see the validity in both the modality in which you said that and the overall expression. I do love to tease my French friends when they make that same sort of assertion that it's great to have Montesquieu, but you gotta act on the ideas. Sorry, guys. So you're late for the party.
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B
And they lost their heads, right?
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Yeah, that they did. Let's build on a point that you did just make. One thing I always like to say when teaching or storytelling about the Revolution is that it began as a civil war. Yes, the Continental Congress ultimately declared that they were fighting for independence from the British Empire. But not all the colonists agreed with that notion initially. And, of course, they didn't necessarily agree on what the United States meant. Your film underscores all this. In fact, you've said that the extent was far more than you previously appreciated. How so? Where does that take your mind?
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B
Well, I think, like most people, you think that you've had. I mean, we passed through the Revolution and biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and other films, but until you get into it in a granular fashion, you don't really know all of the ins and outs. I think I. I suffer, as everyone else does, by this notion that it's essentially big ideas in Philadelphia and that maybe things begin with Lexington and Concord and then move to Yorktown and boom. Done. When it, in fact, is this incredibly long six and a half bloody years. And then, as you say, a good portion of the populace is against it. We have, in our first episode, two Anglican, I believe, ministers who are looking, you know, at some of the demonstrations and say, who do you want to be ruled by? A tyrant? One tyrant 3,000 miles away, or 3,000 tyrants not a mile away. And there are, for many people, quite understandably, the British constitutional monarchy is the source of their good fortune, their wealth, their prosperity, their literacy, their health, the land that they own, and they see no reason to change. The British constitutional monarchy is the best form of government on earth at that moment. And, you know, to throw that away for this radical idea seems kind of crazy. And so what you have almost from the very beginning is a civil war going on first with, during the resistance movement, where there's incredible harassment of people with loyalist tendencies. The opening of their mail, their ostracization once they declare their affectations, the threats of violence, some fleet to Canada, even before the revolution begins. And I think it's really important as filmmakers, we made the decision early on, not just on this film, but on every film, to call balls and strikes so we don't make the loyalists wrong. We just say this is. This is what happens, and sort of look at it with a clear eye and understand and follow a loyalist through the whole process and meet many other Loyalists and the frustrations and the anxieties and those who end up staying and sort of blending in and trying not to make too much of a mess, and those who end up refusing and going to Nova Scotia, going to the Caribbean, to New Brunswick, wherever it might be.
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I think that's so crucial if we're going to avoid falling into a simple two dimensional good guy, bad guy, which that's just not history. Doesn't matter what event we're talking about.
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Those binaries don't exist.
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A
Exactly.
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And the complications and the undertows are endemic to every human situation, and it's important to represent them. And of course, this isn't just a tension between Loyalists and patriots, but between assimilated and coexisting Native Americans superimposed under the thirteen colonies, those nations to the west which are as independent and distinct as, say, France is from Prussia, and have been on the world scene trading and involved in diplomacy for centuries. And the 500,000 free and enslaved African Americans, women who are never sort of given a proper kind of role in the history of the Revolution. And all the diverse other states, particularly in Europe, particularly France, but also Spain and the Netherlands, who become embroiled in what is not just a revolution and not just a civil war, but the fourth, probably fourth World War over the prize of North America. That's a pretty good story to try to, you know, bite off and chew.
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No, it. It is, and it can be daunting, and it's also so rewarding. And I think that's part of what makes it so fascinating and interesting as you're. I mean, there are just so many lines to follow. And the glimpse I got to enjoy at that viewing in New Jersey, I feel like you did such a wonderful job weaving in all of that tapestry.
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C
I was just going to say one thing that I was just thinking about while Ken was talking, and to your question about the Civil War, that has become, I think, more essential for us to talk about when we're talking about the film and we're talking about the Civil War aspect of it, and we're talking about the Civil War nature when it comes to families, communities, whole, you know, groups of people, that it is brother against brother, community against community, neighbor against neighbor. But also, you know, one of the things that really pushes the colonists early is when there's a standing army in their own city. And I think that that piece of the pre revolution story is resonating in a very interesting way right now, but also has extreme importance when we talk about the causes leading up to the rebels really getting their sea legs in Boston. And when you have an army policing your own citizens, what does that mean? And what does that sort of inspire and evoke in your, in your populations?
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You know, Samuel Adams, and of course he's recalling, well after the fact. So how much this is, you know, our memories change, right? And we, the story we tell, even about ourselves, that's something that you encounter with historical documents. But Sam Adams, later down the road, he claims that it was the occupation in Boston. That was when he felt independence needed to happen. Now no one else, you know, talks about that for, for years.
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Yeah, we got that.
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Yeah. And how are you going to get 13 clocks to strike at the same time?
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Exactly. But I think it's interesting, Sarah, to your point, that even if Sam is after the fact, kind of, you know, reinventing himself. Sorry, that's my critical historian mind having to question even what people say about their own narratives. But you know, to say that when redcoats are marching down the wharf as they enter his city, as they come into Boston, the city of only, you know, and think about the proportions too, right. There are only 15,000 Bostonians in the 1760s and 2,000 troops just showed up. I mean, that's enormous.
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Well, I think, I think it's huge. You're absolutely right. And at any point, you know, you can say, well, it begins at Lexington and Concord. We just came from Rhode island, where there's certain. It's the Gas Bay, you know, and it's. It's December of 73 and it's the Boston Tea Party. You can back it up and say, no, it's. It's the massacre in March of 70. No, it's the standing troops. No, it's the Quebec act, you know, which gives the Catholic, French speaking territories that British control much more control of their destiny and of parts of the land that the Americans have. No, it's a 1763. You can't cross The Appalachians to get land, angering the big speculators like Washington and Franklin, but also the small farmers who want to go and grab a piece of that land. So, you know, you're right. You pass the test in 8th grade if you say taxes and representation. But you also have all sorts of usurpations, as Thomas Jefferson would say, having to do with Native American land, having to do with standing troops, having to do with sort of restrictions on a way of life that had been relatively laissez faire. Someone in Parliament, I think referred to. They dealt with North American subjects with salutary neglect, and we liked it that way. And whenever it tightened, for a variety of reasons, the empire's out of money, needs help in paying for the protection. All of that sort of stuff leads to this sort of escalating series events. The most important thing is it happened.
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Right. Let me take a slightly different direction at this point, if I may. There are six chapters in the new film and every chapter I noticed is titled with quotes from Thomas Paine. What's the significance of that choice?
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Well, it's one of these things that you don't go in in advance, as if it's a mental thunderbolt that you're going to do. It's something that happens along the way. You struggle to find a title for each episode as you're working on any film. It's always been our case. And you find something that resonates with that. And what was really clear, once we figured out what our first episode would be in order to be free from the opening quote, it then was like, we should make Thomas Paine all of it. And then it was very clear that episode two, which is about the writing, culminates in the Declaration of Independence, could be called an asylum for mankind. A quote from common sense. And of course, episode three, when it's really dark and Washington's retreating across New Jersey and finally makes a comeback across the Delaware on the day after Christmas to do the famous seizing of the garrison manned by Hessians, that these are the times that try Mansoul. And then after that, when we realized how well it fit in, it was just trying to find that Pain quote that would help us understand the episode. Conquer by a drawn Game is our fourth the soul of all America and the most sacred thing. The most sacred thing being to Thomas Paine, the Union.
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Sure. I don't know if that's a little Freudian slip to throw Twain in with Paine there.
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Well, you know, when I am quoting Mark Twain every single day of my life because as you said, you know, I think people have said of him, he never wrote a bad sentence. So you know, Twain has a huge rents huge, huge space in my brain.
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As he should. That should be the case for everyone. I hear you on that. He makes an outsized number of appearances in my book that I'm working on right now, to my surprise. Well, and I will add on Payne, I think he's brilliant. I wish he and George Washington had a better relationship there at the end. That's my only struggle with the guy. My conversation with Ken and Sarah continues in a moment where we geek out on maps, including World War II maps, because later we jump from the Revolution to World War II and their 2007 docuseries, the War History that Doesn't Suck is presented by the new Ken Burns documentary series the American Revolution, directed by Ken Burns, Sarah Botstein and David Schmidt and premiering Sunday, November 16th on PBS and the PBS app these are the times that try Men's Souls that's one of the most famous quotes from American history. It's the opening line of patriot and pamphleteer Thomas Paine's The American Crisis, which was published in December of 1776, only five months after the signing of the Declaration of Independence and with George Washington's forces whittled down to nothing more than a paltry few thousand hungry, ill clad, poorly armed and frozen men. It was indeed a moment of American crisis. The Revolution almost ended before it really began. And yet neither General Washington nor his Continental army gave up. As Thomas Paine went on to say in that same issue, by perseverance and fortitude, we have the prospect of a glorious issue by cowardice and submission, the sad choice of a variety of evils. Persevere they did, utterly contradicting the odds to prevail at Trenton days later on, on the day after Christmas, in fact, from Trenton to Yorktown, from the Green Dragon Tavern to the halls of the Pennsylvania State House in Philadelphia, the American Revolution is a tale of perseverance. It is also a tale of high minded ideals and inherent contradictions. In other words, if you want to understand the beauty, complexity and challenges of America, you have to go back to the beginning. Recently I was privileged to attend an advance screening of a portion of Ken Burns new document and just to pick a scene, I loved how Ken and his team captured that pivotal moment in December 1776 when George Washington took one of the lowest, bleakest moments the Patriot cause ever faced and turned it into one of its sweetest victories. The vividly animated maps the sweeping shots of portraits, the tight narration. It was everything I've loved about his work since I was a kid. In this moment, he conveyed that personal perseverance just as elsewhere. He so wonderfully captured and conveyed the complicated nuances of this nation creating tale. I cannot wait to watch all six episodes. Appointment viewing in my household. Ken Burns the American Revolution premieres Sunday, November 16th on PBS and the PBS app. For more information, visit PBS.org American Revolution History that Doesn't Suck is sponsored by BetterHelp. On Monday, February 4, 1942, the Sarasota Herald Tribune noted that high tide would occur at 5:03pm Eastern. Wartime that same day, the Kansas City Times headline read, it's really wartime. The Clock Skips an hour to catch up. The paper also reported that the change confused many readers who posed questions like Should I set the alarm ahead too? And in Bend, Oregon, the Bulletin headline was Watches, Clocks and People Adjust to New Wartime. Across the nation During World War II, clocks had sprung forward on daylight savings time that lasted from February 1942 until fall of 1945. After the war's end, imagine the fallback adjustment, when clocks wound back an hour for the first time in three years, a minor inconvenience for a major relief to end the war. Thankfully, we're not at war today, but seasonal changes and less daylight can be a struggle for some. This November, BetterHelp is encouraging everyone to reach out, check in on friends, and reconnect with loved ones. Talking to someone can help. That same feeling comes when people start therapy. BetterHelp makes it simple to talk to a licensed therapist. BetterHelp's matching process pairs you with someone who's a good fit for your needs. If the first therapist isn't right, you can switch anytime. With more than 5 million people served, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest and most trusted online therapy platforms. This month, don't wait to reach out. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com htds that's betterhelp.com.
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A
Can we talk about the maps that you have in this? You've. I mean, you've always had an incredible touch for decades in your depictions on the screen, of course. But I. I was really impressed with the simplicity and the brilliance of particularly my mind's going to the Battle of Trenton, which. Which we viewed there in New Jersey, appropriately, of course. I can see why you selected it, but how would you say your depiction of maps, of scenes. I mean, you've done this in so many films, Civil War and so on. How has this evolved? What's different about this time versus previous or, you know, what's the same? Tell me about the art.
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C
I'll take it. And then Ken will make sure I didn't leave anything out. So I've worked on three of the big war films with Ken, and when we were finishing Vietnam, and it's seen, I think, in our third episode with the I Drang Valley, there's an incredible map that we had built. And Ken, I think I'm speaking for you as if you're not here, but was inspired in part that we could take on the revolution because of the way that map put him in a place in a battle without traditional archives. And in every film that is about a war, he's been brilliant in how we use maps. And we did maps in World War II, just to nerd out on this for a second. World War II has incredible maps, the Military Academy at West Point. And they show in these interesting illustrations army movements and why in the Pacific and in Europe. And we took those books and we built incredible. That was 25 years ago. Maps based on those books. And then in Vietnam, we did another version of that where we started to play around with topography and kind of Google Earth, as well as the traditional flat military maps to help people like me understand how troops are moving and why and what that means in a very kind of elemental way, but also very beautiful and archival and visually exciting. And so revolution. We actually do that in three, maybe four different ways, but really three ways. And the first is when you're looking at documentary evidence from the American Revolution and things that actually exist and were made at the time and are contemporaneous to the history we're telling. One of the things you have is an incredible archive of maps. And those maps were made by everyone. The French made maps, the Brits made maps. We made maps. And the maps are sometimes incredibly beautiful. Intricate illustrations of battles. You see soldiers and cannons and guns, and you see kind of the military hope, the plan, and then what happens. And that's one whole class of maps. Then there are maps that are more politically aspirational, as Maggie Blackhawk explains in the film. They're showing the colonies moving way west before it was reasonable to move west because they were kind of aspirational and political. And then you have, you know, different countries drawing maps for different reasons. Again, sometimes military, sometimes political. And obviously, the geography and the topography of North America is incredibly daunting to anyone trying to figure out how to fight a war. So we brought all that archival material in and we use those maps. They're incredible. I mean, Ken and I, we love them.
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And.
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C
And we superimpose arrows on them and explain what to be looking at and help the viewer sometimes. And sometimes we don't need to do that. And then we thought, okay, now we have to build our own maps. So if you think back on the beautiful parchment maps that Ken made for the Civil War with the red and the blue arrows, and then you think about the kind of military maps we used in World War II and what we did in Vietnam. So we knew we had to do something like that. So we hired a cartographer and his team to actually build. It took almost two years. The topography of North America in the 18th century. Where were the rivers? Where are the mountain ranges? Where do the colonies lie? What are the boundaries? What are the lines? It's really, really hard to do. North America does not look like it did then. Just think about how many dams have been put up. Right.
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Well, Boston is my go to example on that. So then.
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Boston, right? Yeah, yes, Boston, Back Bay. What I mean, it's just. It's a completely different landscape, so we had to do that technically. And then the wonderful graphic designer Molly Schwartz, who's a brilliant watercolorist, had to watercolor on top of that topography. And those are the maps. We call them Molly maps. Those are our maps. And they help you. We put flags on them. We go zoom out very wide where you see all the way to Barbados and Jamaica and the colonies that are beyond the traditional 13. And. And then we get really, really, really close. Where you see trees in Sheffield, Massachusetts, or you see the wharf in Boston, and then we pull way out again and you see how smallpox spread across North America. We were making this film during the pandemic. You can't kind of make that up. Right, right. And then the third thing we did was to work with an incredible company in England to do a kind of 3D CGI. And we did that very carefully in very specific places. Working backwards. We did it in Yorktown. We do it at the end of the Battle of Long Island. We do it at Trenton, we do it in Quebec. And I think it's the most incredible at Quebec, where you really see how the geography and the weather impacted what was happening, and then using kind of the red and blue idea in a CGI way. And that was new for us and very exciting. And we didn't do it too much, but we have seen audiences love it. And I think you can't underplay how important maps are, and you can't undersell how good Ken is at maps. And if you travel with him, he can get. You can, like, blindfold him and turn him around, and then he'll be like, okay, this is how you get back. He's just got an innately good sense of direction, so that's helpful.
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A
Wow.
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She nailed it. One of my earliest memories is of my dad building a map cabinet because he had the disease, too. And I just. I love maps. And what I'm happy to report is that I think that there are more maps in the American Revolution than in all of our previous 39 films combined.
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A
Oh, my goodness.
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B
They're really amazing, and they help you understand. And for someone like Sarah, who's not thrilled about having to be told that the. The American right and the American left and the British left and the British right, the maps really help sort of figure it out, because this is not a political history. It is a political history, but it's a social history. But it's not just a social history. It's a military history, which means you've got about 40 different battles you've got to get to know in this. And. And you. And we're not making it for the nerds like me, the people who already know that stuff. We want to make it explainable to someone who doesn't do. I remember after the Civil War, a woman asked me, she said how much she liked it and. And asked me what I was doing next. And I said, a history of baseball. And she goes, oh, my husband and my son will like that. And I said, oh, so you're a military history expert. She goes, oh, no, you told human stories. I said, look, I'm making baseball for you. I already know your husband and your son are going to watch. I'm making this for you. So we. We have. We. The people who are the nerds will nerd out, but the people who are like, oh, I'm not into military history that much, or I'm not. This. This is for you because it will give you a kind of a portal into the story and why it's important to understand what happened at Bennington, what happened at Saratoga, what happened at 96 in South Carolina, what happened at, you know, Utah Springs, what happened at Guilford Courthouse, and as well as Yorktown and Lexington and Concord.
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A
I love that.
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C
And they're beautiful to look at. They're. The ones that were painted at the time are just extraordinary. The way Molly was able to bring kind of an authentic look and feel that was old, but also new. So you're not pretending to the audience, this isn't something that we've done ourselves to the incredible technology that you can do in 2025 with CGI.
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B
Yeah. Part of it is a racing too. Greg. It's so interesting. One of my favorite maps is of the Boston area, extending all the way through Lexington to Concord. And it has these figures to drawn in, as Sarah was saying, and representations of bunches of troops, little tiny things and canon here. But to begin our story, we subtracted all of that and sent Revere and Dawes off to warn not that the Red Coats are coming or the British are coming, but the regulars are coming out, which is what at least Paul Revere said. And then begin. By the end, we filled it all back in with all of the action, which we've described through paintings, that's brilliant. Through drawings, through live cinematography of minute details, impressionistic details of reenactment. So, you know, plus the commentary of someone like Rick Atkinson who knows the battle cold. And you sort of feel like he's standing at the edge of the stone wall in Lexington and knows exactly what's going on in the minds of people. All of that and music and effects, which sometimes we have a soundtrack, not just music, but of effects track that is as complex as any feature film. And we may be in the hundreds of individual tracks in the middle of a particular battle. And that helps wake up the people who tend to kind of go, oh, well, I'm not really interested in history.
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A
I'm so glad that you peeled back the curtain on that one. And I have to say, first of all, I think George Washington, the surveyor that he was, would be very pleased with all of this.
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B
We hope to have George. I mean, he can be tough, right? He can just look at you and you can kind of go, oh, man, I really screwed up here. But we're hoping that we've, you know, We've been. We're not uncritical of him. We see him as. As flawed and rash and making some pretty terrible tactical mistakes, particularly at Long island and, and Brandywine. But we know that we don't have a country without him. So we'd be really happy if he felt good about these. Matt.
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A
Oh, I like to think he would. And I think the brilliance of Ken. Sarah, you're not Luddites. You're leaning into the new technology, but you're also not becoming dependent on it.
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B
That's correct.
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C
Very much so. We answered this question to a bunch of students the other day because I've worked for Ken for so long that my first film with him we still cut on film and shot on film. And I'm so glad that I had that experience, unlike my incredible colleagues right outside here, because it is like going from a yellow pad to a typewriter to a computer. And the technology is incredible and what we're able to do. And we couldn't have made the revolution 30 years ago in this way. We would have made a different film and it would have been great. But the technology is incredible. But I think there is something old fashioned and hand sewn and we can't lose that. And we never would want to.
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A
Yes. Make it an ad. An ad. Not a.
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C
Or.
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B
Well, yeah, yeah. You don't want the tail to wag the dog. The technological tail to wag the dog. Also. AI has no business here.
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C
We're fairly religious on that front.
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B
Yeah. We're just.
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C
You gotta have a paper source for whatever we're doing.
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B
Our scripts sometimes have our internal scripts sometimes have as they're developing. And there's not just one. Which then is the template like written in stone and delivered from Mount Sinai to inform shooting by the time the first draft of all six episodes is done. We're. We're three quarters of the way through shooting. Okay. And we've also got, you know, we never stop shooting, we never stop writing, we never stop researching. Of course finding new material being corrigible to that stuff. But there's some pages of that script that has. The footnotes are bigger in area than the actual script on the page. And there really is just a narrative story written by Jeff Ward. The punctuated by the first person voices that we're feeding to him. Corrected by the scholars who say this is not right or this emphasis isn't whatever. Or our own artistic event making sure that always if push comes to shove, the facts win and not the art.
- [33:44]
A
Yes. So many of the things you're saying are the same philosophies I bring to bear with my podcast. I, I love hearing all this. Let me take us into a. As you're saying you do with the maps. We've, we've kind of honed in on the tree that is the map itself. Let's get nice and broad and take in the revolution from 30,000ft. Ken, when I was in New Jersey, I remember thinking again, a strong yes and agreeance. As you were talking briefly at one point about the moment Thomas Jefferson and the boys put those unalienable rights out there and the cat being out of the bag. Right. You were talking about what that would ultimately lead to in terms of liberty. I would love to just get, you know, now that you've made this film, Sarah, both of you, as we think about life, liberty and of course the pursuit of happiness, these unalienable rights, how's this film altered or augmented the way that those strike you?
- [34:44]
B
Well, I think just working on it gets you. I mean I've passed through this area and lots of things. A biography of Jefferson, a biography of, of Franklin, who was of course the sort of head of the committee that wrote it. And Jefferson had delivered what was a more accurate sentence for the time. You know, he was saying we hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable. Right. He's just saying this is what we believe. But when Franklin changes it to self evident, there is nothing self evident about these truths. And let's be also pretty honest too, that they could have followed John Locke and were actually following John Locke, that it was life, liberty and property.
- [35:20]
A
Correct?
- [35:21]
B
Right. What you have, particularly as we begin with Native American land, you know, property is a big deal. And this is a revolution that is fought essentially by an elite property owning white man. And we always like to think that democracy is the object of our revolution. It's not the object, it's a consequence. Because as it turns out, over the course of six and a half long years from Lexington to Yorktown, a lot of people who don't own property, teenagers, disaffected people, felons, even Neu Wells as South Carolina was advertising for substitutes that have been bought. Second and third sons without a chance of an inheritance, recent immigrants with from Germany and England with no property whatsoever, end up doing the main fighting and the dying in the Continental army, the most reliable military force that we have. Militia can be really good or they can be scared and they can leave because their crops to plant or crops to harvest. So it's, it's that and what happens is starting first with Pennsylvania is you begin to extend during the course of the revolution some promises to these folks. You know, sometimes it's, we're going to give you 100 acres of Indian land. Boom, done, plus 10 bucks or whatever it is. Some of them in the constitution of Pennsylvania are going to say, you're 21, you're white, you're male, you can vote. And that is not happy. Downstairs in the same building where John Adams is, who thought this was an aristocracy, a republic of sort of elites. And so there's an amazing transformation that takes place. And so these words are hugely important, first of all, that he does say pursuit of happiness. You know, we think that the happiness that they meant has to do with material things. And in fact, I think in large part it has to do with lifelong learning that they think that in order to earn this virtue of citizenship, you have to be completely educated, which has been the hallmark of our republic. You can't be back to being superstitious, conspiracy, distracted disinformation subjects. You have to be thoughtful, verifying, critically thinking citizens. And that's a huge part of it. And the key word isn't even happiness. It's pursuit. This is an action verb, like more perfect union. Right? And, and that's where I think we have to understand the gift that they gave us. And while we can be distracted, completely distracted in the canceling methods of talking about the flaws of a Washington or in this case a Jefferson, it's. It's a fool's errand. They are who they are. And that sentence that he wrote, it just opened the door for everybody. We were speaking to the scholar Ul Levin the other day, and he said just the word all, that's it, it's over.
- [38:03]
C
Right.
- [38:03]
B
You know, they all. You mean all. And, and, and while it'll take four score and nine years before slavery is. Is outlawed, it's done. It'll take 144 years before women get the right to vote. It's done, right? And whatever other expansion of liberty that you mean. And even at that moment when we know people reading it, know who it's intended for, everybody at the margins, as the legal scholar Maggie Blackhawk said, it's deeply significant. She said to them, and she's meaning women, she's meaning African Americans, she's meaning Native Americans. So that there is something. So almost the unintended consequences of the revolutionary ideas that Jefferson was putting on the page, despite his own shortcomings and limitations, makes this one of the great stories in the world. I mean, the the scholar Annette Gordon Reed says, you know, he knew slavery was wrong, and how could you know something is wrong and still do it? She said, well, that's the human question for all of us. She's not letting Jefferson off the hook. She's putting us all on the hook. And that, to me, is the most significant thing for a woman, a black woman scholar who is going to say that about the man who is the author of the limitations as well as the possibilities of the Republic. And then to also understand with regard to George Washington that there's nobody besides him, there's only one person could have kept the 13 colonies together. Then you begin to realize, okay, we don't have to separate into our political factions. We don't have to identify this way or that fight. We can say, boy, we're Americans. This is one hell of a story. We've got the best scholars, you know, talking about it. We've spent a decade nearly researching those maps and those drawings and the paintings. And we've collected 400 voices to complement the third person narration. And they're read by the greatest cast that's ever been assembled for a movie or a television series anywhere, period, you know, Period.
- [40:02]
A
I did recognize that John Adams, I'll say. And it made me happy.
- [40:06]
B
We, you know, Longest Day, About D Day has a really long cast list of very famous actors. Ours is longer. And because it includes women and all sorts of other types of people, as well as the greatest stars of today, I'd put our castle. I defy anyone. Maybe it's similar to since the Birth of Christ, but I would defy anybody to show us a better cast list than this one.
- [40:27]
C
Yeah, I just. I just want to piggyback on one thing. Ken said that, which is, you know, I think we've been talking about this a lot as we go around the country, and Ken said it so well about Maggie Blackhawk, kind of explaining. But I think one of the hopes we have for the film is that it will put both the Declaration of Independence and then the Constitution into a little bit of historical context. Because I think most of us are kind of confused, you know, if you think about it for a second, you know, the Declaration came first in the Constitution, but how much time took between the two documents? What inspired the first and the second? And I think the hypocrisy, particularly in the Declaration of Independence, the hypocrisy comes with enormous flexibility, and that is very inspirational. And so we can handle. We're complicated people, right? We can handle all of those things. We can handle the hypocrisy, we can handle the flexibility. We can be inspired. We can look back at our scars and mistakes and use them to propel us forward. And there's something, we hear this a lot with commentators on every part of the political spectrum saying that the simplicity and flexibility in our founding documents has actually served us very, very well. And it has the possibility to serve us now. And we have a lot to learn from the debates they had themselves about what to do and how to create this totally off the wall experiment in a people's republic. And we're still figuring it out.
- [41:58]
A
I have many times mused that the most brilliant part in the entire Constitution, we can talk about the checks and balances and the development of government and how it builds upon so many centuries. Right. And thoughts and ideas. The most brilliant thing in there is instructions on how to amend and permission to do so.
- [42:16]
B
We would not have. That Constitution would not have been ratified had the people in the, in the biggest public debate that had ever taken place in the history of the world, from, you know, the main district of Massachusetts down to Georgia near the Florida border, had they not thought that there would be these 10amendments that would go with it, that would help to enshrine the things that they had been fighting for. The Declaration, short of Gouverneur Morris's beautiful poetic preamble is just code. It's just code. And you know, it's the operating manual, it's the 1.0. Right. And it's pretty damn good. It's pretty short, it's concise. And yet it's those amendments that said not. Yes, but, but yes, and, and, and we want no establishment of religion. We know where that goes in all of human history. We want a free press. We know where that goes when it's not extended. We want the freedom to assemble, to redress our grievances. We know where that goes when that is not permitted. And that's.
- [43:24]
C
And we know even better where those things go when they're not permitted. Permitted. Yeah, because of what's happened since. Right. I keep thinking about that. We think about pre1776 and 1783 and 1787. But actually look at the history of the world since then.
- [43:39]
A
And speaking of a history of the world, we're jumping from the American Revolution to the war, World War II. That is right after this break, Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch.
- [43:58]
B
Yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month.
- [44:03]
A
Two, seriously, it's $15 a month.
- [44:06]
B
Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [44:17]
C
Payment of $45 dollars per 3 month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com.
- [44:30]
A
So 2007, you created a 14 hour docu series the War. And you open that with the Second World War was fought in thousands of places, too many for any one accounting. This is the story of four American towns and how they're setting citizens experienced that war. I think in that singular statement you kind of touch on what you also say about the revolution, right? It's complicated that like the revolution. World War II is super complicated in its narrative of the American story. If the revolution is our origin story, then what is that turn, you know, what does World War II.
- [45:06]
B
So, so World War II, as we say in the opening line, is the greatest cataclysm in human history, period. 60 million people's lives are extinguished in the course of it. This is the big event. It's the first film that Sarah and I have worked on, which had hundreds of brothers and sisters, other documentaries about it. And we weren't looking for a way to see it differently. We knew that however we approach it, because of our diligence and the amount of time we're going to take, in this case, somewhere between seven and a half and eight years, we're going to have a deep dive and it's going to be different. And the experiences of people we talk to. And we first thought, wouldn't it be interesting to tell the story of World War II through the experiences of one town? It's almost taking the English romantic poet Robert Blake, you'd find the world in a grain of sand. So we could find it. But there were not enough alive people who covered the range of soldiers across the Pacific and European theater, in the air, on the sea, you know, various experiences. And so we expanded it out to four towns, three of them Waterbury, Connecticut, Mobile, Alabama, Sacramento, California had about 100,000 people in 1940, 41, and then tiny Luverne, Minnesota, which had about 3,000 people. So gave us a range of geographical experience, but also community experience and then told the whole thing. So it doesn't mean we weren't top down, we weren't showing maps of, you know, big, you know, red movements of the Nazis and the Soviet counterattack and all of that. It's all there. But we were trying to unify it so that say in a. And that never happens. People trying to traditionally sort of take the World War II in little bits, like one thing or. Or thematically. So you've got European and then you do Pacific. We integrate it. So the day that we're talking about D Day and we just landed there, and we go back to the reaction at home, we go to a newspaper headline and we're landing at Saipan, and so we follow a Saipan story. Then we go back to trying to break out of the hedgerows. Then we conclude the battle of Saipan, and then we go and we break out and we start moving through to Falaise and then on to Paris. But before we do that, we've also gone to the next island that you're going to go. And so you. And also been home again to deal with things like the black market or what's happening in various people. And what we are trying to do with was, in essence, be the headline, the front page of a paper which at any given time is always responsibly giving you what's happening in the Pacific theater and what's happening in the European theater. And what we found, even among veterans was, thank you. I was in the Pacific and I had no idea what I was doing. I was just moving from one blue dot, you know, in. In a. Or green dot in a blue sea, to another or thank you. I had no idea what was happening in Europe or conversely. And that was really important to us. And that's sort of what we've done with all the wars that we tried to understand that there's a simultaneity to events that, you know, as teachers say, oh, we're going to teach you ancient Chinese history, and then we're going to do European. Somehow you don't ever see the timeline in which they coexist and know that this is also happening at that moment. It's really important. And I think maybe to the point that helped you transit, Greg, I would just say about the fragility of democratic institutions, which is part of what our founders understood is just how flawed human beings are and how willing they are to sort of devolve, you know, all experience has shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. Jefferson writes in the Declaration a few phrases beyond pursuit of happiness. But if you wanted to be in the most cosmopolitan place on Earth in 1932, or where things are new in literature, in music, in architecture, in cinema, in painting, in ideas. There's no better place on earth than Berlin. And the next January, not so much.
- [49:04]
C
Annette Gordon Reed said to us the other night, you know, one of the things that's important when we study these huge moments where global. Everything changes is that after these wars, nothing is the same. Everything changes.
- [49:17]
B
Right.
- [49:17]
C
And as Ken was talking about In World War II, you have the total transformation of the American home front. You have these two wars happening simultaneously, as Ken is saying that we don't always understand that they're happening at the same time. And then where do you put the Holocaust in that history? How important was it to the larger history of the Second World War? Where does it fit into everything else that was happening? As Ken said, 60 million people died in that conflict, and nothing was ever the same after. And so what are the things that led up to it that made it happen? How did it transform the world? And what is its legacy, as we understand as Americans? The good war.
- [50:00]
A
The good war. And yet, as you let. Right.
- [50:02]
B
The worst war ever.
- [50:05]
C
Right.
- [50:05]
B
We know why it's in retrospect that it's the good war. Right. I know the ambiguity, first of Korea as undeclared, and then a Vietnam is not only undeclared, but also, you know, a populace that sort of flipped and turned again, a majority turned against it. So the good. You know, we like the fact that Sam Hines, a pilot, said to us, it's not the good war, it's a necessary war. And that gave our first chapter its title. And so you. You can look at that war. There's not a good war. It's. That's oxymoronic.
- [50:37]
C
Emphasis on the right. And as Sam then said, we. What does he say? We waded into Vietnam, a great image. So he gets. He gets some kudos for both moment. Both. Yeah.
- [50:48]
A
Ken, you mentioned the fragility of. Of democratic institutions. My mind goes to the reluctance of the United States, as it's coming out of this isolationist space, to step in, into the war. And I suppose I see a reluctance in FDR and stepping into this global role that the United States has never held. And yet he's. He's pressed and pushed into it. And as he does so, you know, he brings things like the Atlantic Charter, like the Four Freedoms speech. In what ways? In all the ugly nastiness that is World War II, do you think? And American. The American experience in particular, American leadership, American concepts of. Of liberal democracy, are they promulgated? Furthered. Yeah. Do we become that Beacon on the hill or is that more myth? Where do you go with it?
- [51:41]
B
Well, I think it's important to understand that at the end of the Revolution, the Treaty of Paris gave us a nation to the Mississippi which is bigger than England, France and Spain combined.
- [51:52]
C
Right.
- [51:52]
B
So the empire's begun. During the Shays Rebellion, George Washington pleads please don't drown our rising empire in blood. They call it the Continental army, the Continental Congress, they know where they're going. By Theodore Roosevelt's time, a century plus later, America is a big player in the world scene. We become the deciding factor in the first World War. But that turns a lot of people off. At the exact same time we've decided to turn off the spigot of immigration so it develops this kind of nativist as well as isolationist tendencies. The only thing I disagree with you is that never once was Roosevelt reluctant. He knew who his fifth cousin was and what he wanted to do on the world stage. He had been an assistant Secretary of the Navy. The biggest favors that ever happened to him were Pearl harbor and then a few days later Nazi Germany declaring war on the United States. So he wouldn't have to make two different arguments. Yes, everybody's going to go along with, with responding to the war in Pacific, but his big worry understandably and correctly is what's going on in Europe and into the Soviet Union. And so these were gifts to him. And the world was coming out of an economic crisis in which just the very notion of the survival of democracy is at stake. And he more than anyone else on the planet, and I know there are lots of Churchill people who are listening to me and he is central to this. And number two, and he's keeping it going even when we can't get in there, he understands this war is won in order with American manufacturing one, Soviet sacrifice two and then Allied sacrifice three. And that is huge. And he kept, he had pivoted from the New Deal programs into the kind of robust economy that's not only going to end the Depression, but it is going to actually In September of 1945, more than 50% of all things manufactured in the world were made in the United States. This is an unbelievable story. And what manufactured more than anything was the idea that in the midst of this economic crisis and then in the greatest cataclysm that our democracy remained intact. There were free and fair elections. There wasn't a peaceful transfer of power cuz we wanted the guy the whole time. But there was an independence of the judiciary and an independent Congress, a legislative Branch, that was by no means rubber stamp. And that was the difference in saving the world.
- [54:24]
A
I appreciate that response. Let me clarify, Ken.
- [54:27]
B
You're.
- [54:27]
A
You're right. He's not reluctant.
- [54:29]
B
Not.
- [54:29]
A
The Roosevelt knows what a Roosevelt is. It's a burden, I believe he said once.
- [54:34]
B
Exactly.
- [54:34]
A
But let me clarify. I'll say he was politically savvy.
- [54:39]
B
Yeah.
- [54:39]
A
He knew we're not going. Our boys aren't going in the world we want.
- [54:44]
B
Is that. Yes.
- [54:44]
A
That's what I was getting at.
- [54:46]
B
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that.
- [54:49]
A
Okay, why don't we end on a lighter note? Let me ask you this. And, Sarah, please, I'd like to hear your response, too. The two of you have spent so much time. Your lives are making these films beyond your own. What's your favorite World War II film, whether it's Dunkirk or the Pacific, Masters of the Air. Do you have a favorite? Or is that just so far out of your mind because you've been so busy making Revolution?
- [55:13]
C
Oh, my gosh. I mean, I'll just hang in on Steven Spielberg for a second. I think, you know, Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List are two really important films, if you want to think about that time period. Obviously, there are all the amazing films that were made just after World War II, which I think are also really interesting to study. And then I think, you know, HBO did an amazing job with Band of Brothers and the Pacific series. So I'm not sure, Ken, how I would answer that.
- [55:41]
B
I agree with Sarah.
- [55:42]
C
Saving Private Ryan. I know.
- [55:43]
B
Well, I put Saving Private Ryan up there. And of course, Schindler's List. I also think right after the war, as Sarah said correctly, not just those ones like Best Years of Our Life that were focused on the aftermath, but I'm talking about It's a Wonderful Life that is made right in the aftermath of it. And there is a democratic hopefulness and a sense of us being in it together, a sense of a big, huge existential question. Do you wish to live in Bedford Falls or do you wish to live in Pottersville? And that was what the whole struggle was about. I'll make one little footnote to Saving Private Ryan, as everyone probably knows who's listening. This is based on Mrs. Sullivan, who lost four of her sons when a battleship was sunk by the Japanese. And the War Department decided at that moment that they would separate any sons so that you wouldn't have a situation. And that one of the things about Saving Private Ryan is essentially that it's riffing on a variation of like, let's not have a mother suffer anymore. Right?
- [56:43]
A
Yeah.
- [56:44]
B
In our revolution. Rebecca Tanner, and this is just a line on a log someplace. Rebecca Tanner, a Mohegan woman, meaning probably Connecticut, lost five sons fighting for the patriot cause in the revolution. So let that sink in and then tell me that it's just about guys in Philadelphia. Five sons. Now, I'm sure there's Soviet women, I'm sure there's Polish women. I'm sure there are families that had 20 kids that were completely annihilated in wars in the past. But we have a record in our sort of bloodless, gallant American Revolution that is all, you know, you know, covered with the barnacles of sentimentality that we have this really real person. And you meet a 14 year old kid and a 15 year old kid from Connecticut, Joseph Plum Martin, not a Native American, but now a native comma American fighting for the patriot cause throughout. Fifteen years old, he signs up and serves throughout the whole war. These are the stories that have to accompany Washington crossing the Delaware. These are the stories that have to accompany the group of five men, the committee that sat down and gave to Thomas Jefferson the responsibility of writing the first draft for the Declaration. These are the stories that have to accompany the months in the summer of 1787 when they drafted the shortest and still the best constitution in the world. These are the stories that have to accompany us if we're going to know more than just that superficial, sanitized Madison Avenue version of history, which the three of us are not interested in.
- [58:23]
A
Ken, Sarah, I don't think there's a better note to end on there. I want to thank you so much for your time for this truly delightful and deep and meaningful conversation that's taken us to, yes, the high, beautiful aspects of the revolution, down to the dark and the dreary and into World War II. The top down, the bottom down, and of course, the maps.
- [58:46]
B
Yeah, you're right, the map history doesn't suck. Yeah, that's right.
- [58:51]
A
Thank you both so much and we'll look forward to more things down the road, I'm sure.
- [58:56]
C
Thank you.
- [58:56]
A
Thank you.
- [58:57]
B
Working on a lot.
- [58:59]
A
Ken Burns latest documentary, the American revolution, premieres on November 16th on PBS. That concludes this special episode. Don't forget that right now you can listen to an extra story about the birth of the United States Marine Corps, which celebrates its 250th birthday, November 10, 2025. You can access that and other exclusive stories by visiting htdspodcast.com membership or click the link in the Episode Notes to start a free seven day trial History that Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson. Special thanks to Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein Episode produced by Dawson and Croft with editorial assistance by Ella Henriksen and Will King Production by Airship Sound design by Molly Bach Theme music composed by Greg Jackson Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsey Graham and their for bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted in writing this episode, visit htdspodcast.com HTDS is supported by fans atdspodcast.com Membership My gratitude to you kind souls providing the funding that helps us keep going. Thank you and especially special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Ahmad Chapman, Andrew Nissan, Anthony Pope, Art Lane, Bob Stinner, Bonnie Brooks, Brian Goodson, Bruce Hibbert, Charles Clanden, Charlie Mages, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, Cindy Rosenthal, Colleen Martin, Dan Gee, David Rifkin, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Elizabeth Chris Jansen, Ellen Stewart, Ernie Lomaster G2303 Jeffrey Nelson, George J. Sherwood Garrett, Gareth Griffin, Henry Brunges, Holly Hamilton, Jake Gilbreth, James Bledsoe, James Blue, James Schlender, Jarrett Zangora, Jeffrey Moots, Jennifer Ruth, Jeremy Wells, Jessica Poppet, Joe Dobas, John Boovie, John Frugal, Dougal John Hubbard, John Keller, John Messmer, John Oliveros, John Rudlevich, Jonathan Sheff, Jordan Corbett, Josh Wood, Joshua Steiner, JP Brooks, Justin May, Justin Spriggs, Karen Bartholomew, Carl and Elizabeth Salad, Carl Friedman, Carl Hindel, Ken Colbert, Kim R. Kristen Pratt, Kyle Decker, L. Paul Goeringer, Laura Norman, Lawrence Neubauer, Linda Cunningham, Mark Ellis, Marcia Smith, Matt Siegel, Nate Secunder, Nick Caprell, Noah Hoff, Owen W. Sedlet, Patrick Day, Reese Humphries, Wadsworth, Rick Brown, Rob Drazovich, Sam Holtzman, Sarah Traywood, Sharon Thiesen, Sean Baines, Stacy Ritter, Steve Williams the Creepy Girl Tom Thomas Churchill Thomas Matthew Edwards, Thomas Sabbath, Tim and Sarah Turner, Todd Curran, Tom Bastavka, Wesley McKeague, Zach Green, Zach Jackson join me in two weeks where I'd like to tell you a story.