History That Doesn’t Suck, Ep. 192

A Conversation with Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein: The American Revolution and WWII

Host: Prof. Greg Jackson
Guests: Ken Burns (Filmmaker), Sarah Botstein (Producer)
Release Date: November 10, 2025

Overview

In this special episode, Prof. Greg Jackson sits down with legendary documentarian Ken Burns and longtime collaborator Sarah Botstein to discuss their latest PBS documentary, “The American Revolution.” Together, they explore the deep complexities of the Revolution, the benefits of examining history’s nuances, and the continued relevance of both the American Revolution and World War II for modern audiences. The episode weaves insights on documentary storytelling with candid reflections on the art and ethics of retelling the past.

Main Discussion Themes

1. The American Revolution: “The Most Important Event Since Christ” (03:36–05:32)

• Ken Burns asserts the American Revolution as “the most important historical event since the birth of Jesus,” not as provocation, but to spark discussion about its world-historical significance.
• He emphasizes what is “new under the sun” in 1776: people becoming citizens, not subjects.
  • Quote: “On July 4, 1776, I think there was something brand new under the sun, at least for a moment.” – Ken Burns [04:18]

2. The Revolution as Civil War, Not Myth (05:54–09:55)

• Prof. Jackson and Ken challenge the bloodless, mythic understanding of the Revolution, highlighting its reality as a protracted, brutal conflict.
• Many colonists opposed independence—documented through the film’s inclusion of loyalist voices.
  • Quote: “We made the decision early on… to call balls and strikes so we don’t make the loyalists wrong. We just say this is what happens.” – Ken Burns [08:26]
• Sarah Botstein underlines the revolution’s intimate fracturing of communities—“brother against brother”—and the chilling impact of a standing army in colonial cities.
  • Quote: “It is brother against brother, community against community, neighbor against neighbor.” – Sarah Botstein [10:17]

3. Complexity Beyond Patriot vs. Loyalist (08:55–12:22)

• The Revolution’s tapestry includes Loyalists, Patriots, Native nations, free and enslaved African Americans, women, and foreign powers (France, Spain, Netherlands).
• The film seeks to move beyond binary interpretations and myth.

4. Catalysts and Causes: Many Threads, Many Beginnings (12:23–14:12)

• They discuss the multitude of Revolutionary “starting points”—Lexington, Concord, the Boston Massacre, Boston Tea Party, and various British policies restricting land and autonomy.
• Ken and Greg dismiss reductionist narratives (“taxation without representation” is just the start), emphasizing diverse causes including Native dispossession, army occupation, and economic restrictions.

5. Storytelling Choices: Thomas Paine's Words as Episode Titles (14:13–15:43)

• Each chapter of the documentary is titled with quotes from Thomas Paine to contextualize the evolving “soul” of the Revolution.
  • Quote: “It then was like, we should make Thomas Paine all of it… Each episode, we found a Pain quote that would help us understand the episode.” – Ken Burns [14:32]

The Art of Maps: Visualizing History (21:20–32:30)

Celebrating Cartography and Innovation

• Sarah details the meticulous process behind the film’s maps—combining period originals, artistically enhanced “Molly maps,” and new CGI models.
  • Quote: “We hired a cartographer… to actually build—the topography of North America in the 18th century… It took almost two years.” – Sarah Botstein [25:09]
• Maps serve as portals into battles, strategies, and the geography of revolution, making military history accessible for “non-nerds” as well as enthusiasts.
• Ken reveals his lifelong map obsession, with this film featuring more maps “than in all of our previous 39 films, combined.” [27:34]
• The creative use of technology walks a line between tradition and innovation—never letting AI or digital wizardry overshadow authenticity.
  • Quote: “You don’t want the tail to wag the dog. The technological tail to wag the dog. Also. AI has no business here… You gotta have a paper source for whatever we’re doing.” – Ken Burns & Sarah Botstein [32:34–32:46]

Founding Documents: Unalienable Rights and Democratic Contradictions (33:44–43:23)

• Host asks how exploring the Revolution changes the way the “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” strikes them.
  • Ken: The Revolution set in motion unintended consequences—democracy wasn’t the object, but became the outcome. The extension of rights grew during and after the war.
  • Quote: “We always like to think that democracy is the object of our revolution. It’s not the object, it’s a consequence.” – Ken Burns [35:22]
  • The “pursuit of happiness” meant lifelong learning and virtuous citizenship, not just material comfort.
  • Quote: “The key word isn’t even happiness. It’s pursuit. This is an action verb, like more perfect union.” – Ken Burns [36:34]
• Sarah highlights how founding documents’ “flexibility and hypocrisy” became virtues—the “possibility to serve us now” by allowing for amendment, debate, and growth.
• They both underscore that the stories of regular people (Rebecca Tanner, a Mohegan woman who lost five sons; 15-year-old Joseph Plum Martin fighting in the war) must be told alongside the famous founding fathers to understand the nation’s real origins.

From Revolution to World War II: Connecting Lessons (43:39–54:43)

On “The War” Documentary: Personalizing the Cataclysm

• Ken discusses his 14-hour WWII series “The War” (2007), which told the national story through four American towns—linking the global to the intimate.
• They achieved narrative simultaneity, weaving actions on multiple fronts with home front stories, making history tangible and emotionally immediate.
  • Quote: “We were trying to unify it so that… we’re landing at Saipan, and so we follow a Saipan story. Then we go back to trying to break out of the hedgerows. Then we conclude the battle of Saipan, and then… on to Paris.” – Ken Burns [46:18]
  • Veterans themselves expressed gratitude for seeing the bigger picture of the war’s multiple fronts.

Democracy’s Fragility and America’s World Role

• Ken reflects on America’s rise to a global power and the importance of democratic institutions, especially under FDR’s leadership in WWII. The film underscores how American democracy was stress-tested but retained its core, distinct from powers that collapsed.
  • Quote: “The world was coming out of an economic crisis in which just the very notion of the survival of democracy is at stake. And he [FDR] more than anyone else on the planet... understands this war is won in order with American manufacturing one, Soviet sacrifice two, and then Allied sacrifice three.” – Ken Burns [53:11]
• They push back on the myth of WWII as a purely “good war”—instead, it was necessary, but “the worst war ever.”
  • Quote: “Sam Hines, a pilot, said to us, it’s not the good war, it’s a necessary war… There’s not a good war. That’s oxymoronic.” – Ken Burns [50:05]

Notable Moments & Quotes

• French Revolution vs. American: “It was a French woman who unremarkably suggested… it was the French Revolution that was much more significant. But I love to have that sense.” – Ken Burns [03:56]
• Maps as Storytelling: “You can, like, blindfold him and turn him around, and then he’ll be like, okay, this is how you get back. He’s just got an innately good sense of direction.” – Sarah Botstein, about Ken [27:08]
• On Founders’ Contradictions: “Annette Gordon Reed says, you know, he knew slavery was wrong, and how could you know something is wrong and still do it? She said, well, that’s the human question for all of us. She’s not letting Jefferson off the hook. She’s putting us all on the hook.” – Ken Burns [38:29]
• Constitution’s Genius: “The most brilliant thing in there is instructions on how to amend and permission to do so.” – Prof. Jackson [41:57]
• Final Anecdote (Human Dimensions): “Rebecca Tanner, a Mohegan woman… lost five sons fighting for the patriot cause in the revolution. So let that sink in and then tell me that it’s just about guys in Philadelphia. Five sons.” – Ken Burns [56:43]
• Understanding Both War and Peace: “These are the stories that have to accompany… the shortest and still the best constitution in the world. These are the stories that have to accompany us if we’re going to know more than just that superficial, sanitized Madison Avenue version of history...” – Ken Burns [57:16]

Light-Hearted Close: Favorite WW2 Films (55:13–56:43)

• Sarah’s picks: Saving Private Ryan, Schindler’s List, Band of Brothers, HBO’s The Pacific; also referencing postwar classics like The Best Years of Our Lives.
• Ken’s picks: Saving Private Ryan, Schindler’s List, It’s a Wonderful Life; highlighting postwar optimism and collective struggle.

Timestamps by Segment

• Main introduction & significance of the Revolution: 03:36–05:32
• Civil war dimension of Revolution: 05:54–09:55
• Inclusivity and broader perspectives: 08:55–14:12
• Mapping & visualization in documentaries: 21:20–32:30
• Founding documents & the philosophy of rights: 33:44–43:23
• WWII documentary methodology & reflections: 43:39–54:43
• WWII film favorites & personal storytelling: 55:13–58:23

Tone & Takeaways

The episode is deeply reflective—serious, insightful, and suffused with the hosts’ and guests’ genuine awe for history’s complexity. The language remains warm, erudite, conversationally witty, and accessible, with the scholars freely critiquing their own approaches. Both Ken Burns and Sarah Botstein bring an emphasis on storytelling with empathy, balancing candor about the flaws and contradictions of America’s founding with appreciation for its democratic legacy.

Essential Takeaway:
To understand America, says Ken Burns, “you have to go back to the beginning”—but with open eyes, embracing not just ideals but contradictions, not just generals but every voice. The stories that matter most, the documentary argues, are those that join the human to the historical—warts and all.

End of Summary