General William Rapp (6:35)

Hey, it is a privilege to be here with you. I've got a lot of respect for what you do. Thank you for having me.

Greg Jackson (6:41)

You're too kind, General. And again, you're sure you want me to call you Bill?

General William Rapp (6:45)

That would be fantastic. If I can call you Greg, please.

Greg Jackson (6:49)

Yes, I insist upon it. So diving right in, your book, Accomplishing the Leadership that Launched Revolutionary Change is all about the leaders in the early years of the War of Independence, those who oversaw the Boston campaign. And in it you write, to quote you, America in 1776 was not a new nation under arms, imbued with patriotic fervor and a sense of sacrifice for the common good. But the efforts of the few in the Boston campaign provided the spark needed to unite at least some of the colonies in the Americas. Close quote. We are, of course, in absolute agreement on this. This shouldn't be controversial to anyone, right? The thirteen colonies were truly distinct, different, disparate. It starts as a civil war in New England, effectively the Revolution. And that's kind of where we're picking up our story here today.

General William Rapp (7:39)

The challenge is, a French observer said there is more patriotic fervor in a Parisian cafe than there is in all of Philadelphia.

Greg Jackson (7:47)

Oh, that is amazing. I have not come across that quote before. Well, I mean, New England is just. It's in a very different special space. You know, we've gone through 12 years of crises since the end of the French and Indian Seven Years War, those three separate tax crises to just repeat the word, but it's the appropriate one. And of course, it's 1773. We get to the last of those. That leads to the Boston Tea Party, where we really do have some fervor. But it's this small niche group, really, the Sons of Liberty. Sam Adams is. Well, he is involved, but kind of in the shadows there, and that's what's taking us towards Civil war. Is the reaction to that Tea Party, the intolerable Acts, to put the American name to him. Right.

General William Rapp (8:31)

I'm a big fan of Sam Adams. I think, you know, he is a political organizer that's beyond compare. And I love how Joseph Galloway described him at the Second Continental Congress. He. He eats little, sleeps little, drinks little, talks much, and is indefatigable in the pursuit of his objects. This idea of this patriotic fervor only existed in very much a minority. Maybe, you know, Patrick Henry down in Virginia, certainly several of the Sons of Liberty and Sam Adams. But there's an awful lot of myth about we were all ready to just become Americans and not British, you know, and Paul Revere said, the British are coming, which, you know, he didn't say, of course.

Greg Jackson (9:12)

Right.

General William Rapp (9:12)

The Regulars are out because they all thought they were British. They just didn't like how they were being governed.

Greg Jackson (9:17)

Yeah. I mean, the analogy to that would be if we had a similar situation today, it'd be like going around saying, the Americans are coming in New York. Right. Or shall we say Boston? Yes. Sam is seeing the redcoats pour into Boston for the Boston occupation. That, of course, culminated in the Boston Massacre. That was it for him. That was the moment. But when we fast forward then to the Second Continental Congress, I mean, even when we get to the Declaration of Independence, which of course puts us ahead of Lexington and Concord. So I'll be a little careful not to go too far there, but, I mean, it's a very earnest debate. You've got John Adams pushing hard for independence. You've got John Dickinson with plenty of supporters in his corner going, whoa, that is crazy. That's too much. So all that to say at this point in April 1775, if Sam Adams has really gone to the independent side of things. I mean, he's way out on a limb in his own world. You know, George Washington, who's yet to even take command of the. Still not a continental army. He believes that if there's a war, it's going to be a civil war. He's not thinking independence. So all that to say, it's April, and of course, the redcoats are sent on a mission to hunt down this guy Sam Adams and John Hancock, you.

General William Rapp (10:30)

Know, the 1st of September, 1774, the powder alarm. Oh, yeah, because you got to remember that the assumptions that the British had about the militia and about the ability of the colonials, the country folk, to be able to organize and muster and. And have any kind of wherewithal, the British put on a absolutely textbook raid. George Madison of the 4th King's Own Regiment, with 260 regulars, steal all of the gunpowder out of the powder magazine, which is now very close to Tufts University in Somerville. But that had all of the powder, 250 kegs.

Greg Jackson (11:06)

That's a lot.

General William Rapp (11:07)

They get it, and they're back in Boston before any of the militias muster. To make matters worse, Madison sends 14 guys down to near Harvard, into Cambridge, to steal the two brass cannon that are out in front of the militia headquarters. And they get those back to Boston before anyone even is aware that they're doing it. What that did was it cemented in the minds of the British in London the biases that they came into this fight with, that the militia are worthless. You know, in fact, the military aid to King George in January 1775 says, Siren, give me 1000 Grenadiers and I shall march from Maine to Georgia and geld all the males, as if this was just going to be a cakewalk. John Pitcairn, in March of 1775, he says to Earl of Sandwich, I'm satisfied that one active campaign, a smart action, the burning of two or three of their towns, will set everything to right. And Lord Dartmouth tells Gage, the colonials are just a rude rabble without a plan, without concert, and without conduct. And this raid against the powder house on the 1st of September, 1774 cemented all of those biases in place. So we're looking at this Concord raid, which is 18 miles one way just to get to the center of Concord. Barrett's farm is another two miles past that. So the light infantry companies are going to do 42 miles or so if everything works perfectly in 20 hours. And I wonder, today, I'm an old, you know, old soldier, how many of my soldiers could do 42 miles in 20 hours carrying, you know, all of their equipment in poor. I mean, their shoes didn't have a left or a right and they were dumped off in water. So everything's wet to begin with. And so it was a remarkably over optimistic plan to begin with.

Greg Jackson (13:00)

Yeah, this sounds like you're talking about an Ironman event. Right? Like forget fighting, forget engaging with a potential foe, which they clearly felt like they could do. They're just not worried about any sort of meaningful resistance.

General William Rapp (13:13)

And even if there was resistance, you know, so Gage pulls the Light Infantry Company and the Grenadier Company out of every regiment to include the Royal Marines into this superstar team that was his very best soldiers. And the assumption there is you pull the superstars together, you're going to get superstar performance. And we have seen that to include a couple of our Olympic men's basketball teams that may not have performed as well collectively as they should have given the talent that was in the room. There's so much arrogance and overconfidence when they go out on these things. And then he puts it under Francis Smith, who I'm sure you know, not the right choice.

Greg Jackson (13:52)

And whether we're talking about the Olympics or this military example, basically the Avengers only work in fiction. Only there can you bring together a bunch of superstars and it turns into this exponential thing. Rather than possibly even dumbing down the ability of the superstars because they don't gel. I'm going the right way with your analysis.

General William Rapp (14:11)

Yeah, I would say that you can put superstars together and you will get the synergy where the whole is more than the sum of the parts. But only if you give them time to build trust, to learn how to work together, to understand the different leaders, become a team. Throw them together at 10 o'clock at night and say, you know, go do miraculous things.

Greg Jackson (14:29)

Right.

General William Rapp (14:30)

It did not turn out well. But, you know, surprisingly, there were a few voices in the wilderness among the British that did not think that this was a good idea. The adjutant general of the British Army, a guy named Lieutenant General Sir Edward Harvey, said to attempt to conquer America internally with our land forces is as wild of an idea as ever. Controverted common sense. What are we doing? Gage says, if you're contemplating sending 10,000 as being sufficient, send me 20,000. If 1 million is thought enough, give me 2. It'll save both blood and treasure. In the end, this idea of put together a small force, relatively small force, 840is my estimate for it. And the thought that they could get out there 38 miles and back to Boston before there's mobilization. It was a pretty heroic assumption.

Greg Jackson (15:19)

Heroic. That is a kind word to use. So this is an incredible march. It's ridiculous. And then when they get to Lexington, that had to only further their assumptions. Right. I mean, it's not like the green was an amazing showing for the Lexington militia.

General William Rapp (15:34)

Well, remember, the Lexington militia is told by Parker to disperse. They're only about 75. You know, the numbers vary. 67 to 77, somewhere in there. Of the 150 actually came back at 515.

Greg Jackson (15:48)

Right, right.

General William Rapp (15:49)

So Parker tells his men when he's being yelled at by Major Pitcairn on horseback, disperse, you rascals. You. You rebels. He says, dispersement. So they have started to turn and a shot goes off. If it was a pistol shot, it was probably by the excitable Major Edward Mitchell, one of the British guys that was out trying to find the Paul Revere and William Dawes. If it was a rifle shot or a musket shot, it probably came from a colonial who was late to the party. But anyway, the 1st or the 4th and the 10th light infantry fire a volley into the mass of Parker's guys.

Greg Jackson (16:22)

And they kill eight, which isn't much of a mass. You know, let's note that as well. Right. We're only. I've seen so many different estimates there as well, but I've seen it as low as even 40. I think that's too low. But on the higher side, maybe 80. And not all the British have made it right to the green. They're not facing the full force, but several hundred are there by this point.

General William Rapp (16:43)

A guy named Jesse Adair, he's a Marine. And Pitcarn puts him in the lead of these army regular companies, the 10th and the 4th of the two in the front because he's a really fast walker, and they're behind schedule and they need to set a very fast pace. But Jesse Aderis is like a ballroom brawler. He's itching for a fight. And when they get up there and they see Parker, even though he's well off the route, you know, he's standing parallel to the route that they need to go to Concord. The 10th and the 4th turn off the route and confront. That's really only about 75 to 80 guys. Those first two companies, they're followed up by the fifth, who's right behind him, and a couple more light infantry companies. That initial force going, it's almost a one for one. But they have discipline. They fire, and then they go with Bayonets and the really difficult for Pitcairn cannot get control. Smith comes up and orders a drummer to beat the recall, and that's how he. He gets his guys back onto a formation. But we look at Lexington as a fight. It really wasn't. It was, you know, a bunch of regular shooting into guys who, in my opinion, were not putting up a fight. In fact, had been ordered to disperse. And Lieutenant Edward Gould of the 4th Regiment says on our approach in his deposition, they dispersed. And so I believe that there was no order to fire, which is why, although I anger the people in Lexington, I say the shot heard around the world happened on Concord Bridge. And so all the Lexington school children have been told differently, but.

Greg Jackson (18:13)

Sure. But yeah, those are fighting words in Lexington.

General William Rapp (18:16)

I have no doubt. It really is. It really is. Well, you know, and then they go past, they get marching. The real objective is conquered. And they get there and the militia are completely mobilized. I mean, in fact, they get a little bit of an escort coming into Concord, as you recall. And then the militia go to their muster field past North Bridge, up on Patonset Hill or Punta Cassette Hill. And those six light infantry companies go. Three are left near the bridge. Three more go on to Barrett's farm to look for the stuff that they know is there but has been buried. And those three at the bridge getting a little nervous because that mass of militia up on the hill under James Barrett is starting to get angry.

Greg Jackson (18:56)

Now, Bill, let me get your take. I know that National Park Services likes to emphasize that they have no evidence of the guns being buried. I love the story and am inclined to go with it. In your research, did you ever find anything that threw this into myth, legend for you versus you know, it is.

General William Rapp (19:15)

You just don't know how much was embellished. I believe that James Barrett, Colonel Barrett, had an awful lot of supplies at his farm that had either been dispersed or buried or hidden in his farm. And he was confident enough. He left the farm under control of his very capable wife. And she was. Yeah, she's an impressive woman, a formidable woman when it came to telling the British regulars, this is private land and, you know, get the heck away. They did some cursory looks. They couldn't find anything, and then came back. It was what was really happening behind them with those three companies. The 43rd under Captain Laurie in charge, but the 4th and the 10th Light infantry nearby. That is what that mass of militia led by the Acton Minuteman came down. And that is where that shot heard round the world happened. What I Think is really remarkable is Barrett and all of the militia colonels had been given very strict guidance. The Continental Congress to the Provincial Congress of Massachusetts Committee of Safety, all saying, do not fire first. Act only on the defensive. And in fact, when all of this militia was getting all upset because there was fires going on in downtown Concord.

Greg Jackson (20:29)

But it was an accident. That's. I always like to emphasize that. Totally unintentional. But now you've got these. These colonial militiamen up at the farm, and they just see smoke coming from downtown.

General William Rapp (20:40)

Yeah. And they're going, they're burning our town. We're just going to. While they're burning our town. And. And finally, Colonel Barrack turns to Major John Buttrick and says, you know, you can guide them down and take them down.

Greg Jackson (20:51)

And.

General William Rapp (20:51)

And this is where Isaac Davis and the Acton Minuteman Company declares the right to be in the lead. You know, Davis was the blacksmith in Acton, and he said, I'll make bayonets for everybody if you elect me captain. And so they were fully armed with bayonets on their muskets. They took the lead. And unfortunately, Mrs. Davis slept the widow that night as he was killed in that first volley. When the 4th Light infantry, you know, I don't believe, without a command from their officers, just this massive militia getting closer and closer, let loose a volley. And that's when James Butrick gave his famous words. Fire. For God's sakes, men, fire. And that was the first time a militia officer had ordered colonial militia to fire on British regulars. That was the shot heard around the world.

Greg Jackson (21:41)

Yeah.

General William Rapp (21:41)

When I look at what can we learn today, the unbelievable ability to communicate intent down to every single private. We cannot afford to start the war. Do not fire first. And James Barrett, when every company of militia passed him walking down to the bridge with Buttrick, would tell them, each of the companies, do not fire first. Do not fire first. Do not fire first. So when the British fired, there was an absolute stoppage, which is why Butrick had to say, for God's sakes, men, fire. Because they didn't want to. You know, this was. This was nut.

Greg Jackson (22:19)

This had been so drilled into them, we do not fire. This is. It was very intentionally keeping away from that itchy trigger finger.

General William Rapp (22:26)

And maybe that young private in the militia didn't understand the strategic big picture, but Sam Adams absolutely did. Joseph Warren absolutely did that. If the New England governments were seen to, and the New England militia starting the war, they did not have the backing of the rest of the colonial delegations. They had to be seen as acting on the defensive. Which is why the strategic narrative, you know, what happened between 19 April and 17 June, where most people just blip over that bit of history, I think is the most strategic piece of history. At least in the first, you know, two and a half years of the war.

Greg Jackson (23:05)

Shots are fired. And on the other side of this quick break, the General and I discuss the bloody battle that ensues during the British retreat from Concord back to Boston. And later General Rapp will share his thoughts on leadership lessons from History at Designer Shoe Warehouse we believe that shoes are an important part of, well, everything.

Instacart (23:26)

From first steps to first dates, from all nighters to all time personal bests.

Greg Jackson (23:32)

From building pillow forts to building a.

Instacart (23:34)

Life for all the big and small moments that make up your whole world. DSW is there and we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love at brag worthy prices at your DSW store or dsw.cominstacart is.

Tommy Morrissey (23:51)

On a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pre game rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything else. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply for three orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants.

KFC (24:20)

The new KFC Dunkin Bucket with juicy Original Recipe tenders, new mashed potato poppers, crispy fries, plus three sauces that fit right on top of the lid. So you can dunk anywhere. You can dunk at the game. Dunk while security points to the no outside food sign and dunk as 20,000 people watch you and your Dunkit Bucket get removed from the stadium. Dunk almost anywhere with the new $7 KFC dunkit bucket or get the double dunkit bucket for 25. Prices and participation vary while supplies last, taxes, tips and fees extra.

Greg Jackson (24:59)

It's really remarkable when we think about that seminal moment with the command an American officer actually saying yes, fire on the King's troops that it didn't happen sooner. I mean, I think about so many different instances in the the 12 years from 1763 to 1775 where things could have gone off the rails. I'm kind of astonished when I reflect on that history that it took until April 1775 and the Americans were able to navigate that in such a way that they were not to be seen as the instigators.

General William Rapp (25:32)

Yeah, you bring up a great point. You know, the 27th of February is the raid on Salem, and that.

Greg Jackson (25:38)

I was thinking of that.

General William Rapp (25:39)

It very easily could have been that spark that sets this whole thing in motion. In fact, there's a great quote. It might be invented after the fact by a participant, but he says, yelling to the British commander, you have no authority to fire here, which was peacetime rules in Boston. You had to have a magistrate give permission and all of those kind of things. You had to declare that this was a mob and please disperse all of those kind of things. So you have no right to fire. The local minister came up with this face savings. You know, lower the drawbridge, they'll walk across it. They'll go 100 yards, then do a U turn and go back to their ships and leave. And nobody, nobody gets hurt. But that very easily, as you note, could have been, you know, the start of this thing. It was that firing at Lexington that caused those at Concord to say, things have changed now. This is not the same. You know, this retreat becomes incredibly bloody. You've got this link up with Hugh Percy, and he's just a fabulous British character. He shows up with his brigade, minus all of his elite troops. And that brigade performs so much better than the elite troops when they were all thrown together. You know, he doesn't have any of his light infantry or grenadiers. They are completely smoked, we would say today. You know, they're tired, they're out of ammunition, they're wounded.

Greg Jackson (27:01)

I mean, imagine this at this point, I don't know what the exact mileage would be from. From Concord to Monot.

General William Rapp (27:07)

Monotomy.

Greg Jackson (27:08)

See, I'm gonna cheat Arlington, but, man, they've. They've marched over a marathon by this point.

General William Rapp (27:15)

18, you know, it's another six back to Lexington, another about four from Lexington to the. The start of the monotony plane. So you're right. They're at 26 miles, and the last 12, they've been getting shot at this whole time. They're out of water, they're wounded. You know, they're kind of like you put those pedometers on a soccer player in a World cup match, and it says he ran 13 miles or something like that. These guys, maybe the street distance was 10 miles, but I bet you they were doing many more than that just in the off and back. And it is a very difficult situation. But Hugh Percy, I love his quote. He writes A letter to the Adjutant General the day after, he says, whosoever looks upon them as an irregular mob will find himself very much mistaken. They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians. And this country being much covered with woods and hilly, is very advantageous to their method of fighting. I mean, even Hugh Percy, who was not a big fan of the colonial militia, grudging respect. And a lot of the, the British Regulars is, they won't fight us straight up like a man to man, like you're supposed to, like, why should they? You know, they don't have bayonets or most of them don't, and they're not disciplined to be able to reload in 20 seconds when people are coming at you with bayonets in the charge, like, why would you expect that they would fight you in the way that you want to be fought?

Greg Jackson (28:45)

It's simply the frustration of, well, not winning.

General William Rapp (28:48)

You're exactly right. Now I get a chance to talk about my town, Arlington, which back then was called Monotony. You know, the heaviest fighting by far is in Monotony. This is when upwards of 14,000 maybe are starting to show up. Some low estimates at the 4 to 5,000. But 25 of the 49 colonial killed are killed in monotony. 40 of the 73 British killed are killed in Monotony at one place, the Jason Russell House, which can be toured today, it has bullet holes in the walls. That house is the scene of probably upwards of 20 or more combined colonial and British killed right in the yard, right around it or inside the house. So this was vicious fighting that was happening during this retreat march.

Greg Jackson (29:37)

And that's a higher body count than Lexington and Concord combined.

General William Rapp (29:40)

Combined. Easy. It was fascinating how these militia were able to coordinate action. But I, as a soldier, I also think about the difficulty that Percy had in trying to get his beleaguered force back through this mass of angry militia to the safety of Boston. And I don't know if another leader in the British force would have been able to do it had Percy not been there. Cool. But at the same time, very energetic, constantly moving around, constantly rotating units out of the rear guard, because his rear guard, which started off as the 23rd, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, had to change it with the Royal Marines just due to losses. The Royal Marines take the largest sheer number of losses just in that rear guard action through the end of Monotony and into Cambridge. It is a very vicious fight. And then the night ends at 8 o'clock at night and no one really knows. The world's turned upside down. And then it becomes, what do we do about this now? And Samuel Adams has been waiting for this moment. He wrote a letter on 21 March to Richard Henry Lee, and he said, it is a good maxim in politics as well as in war to put and keep your enemy in the wrong. And then to Samuel Cooper in April, he writes, we cannot make events. Our business is wisely to improve them. So this is all about how do we tell this story? Because there's really two audiences, as you know. You've got London.

Greg Jackson (31:12)

Yep.

General William Rapp (31:12)

And then you've got the rest of the colonies that have. That 12 of them agreed to show up for the Second Continental Congress. That'll start on the 10th of May.

Greg Jackson (31:20)

Well, and let's remember that the population as well. Right. It's not like we tend to fall into saying the colonials. The colonials. But really there's this subgroup of patriots, slash rebels, depending on your perspective. And they are in the minority. They aren't even the major. Right. Your average colonial is probably just thinking, oh, my goodness, why can't politics just be calmer?

General William Rapp (31:39)

You know, what we talk about as a political scientist, we say a rebellion is when you do not like the conditions under which you are being governed and you want to change in your conditions. A revolution is. I want a change in government. I would say that this thing started off as a desire to have a change in our conditions. We want the rights of Englishmen. And then it became a revolution. But at this time, it's still a rebellion. And you're right, there's a minority that really won an active rebellion. I think. I would say the larger majority would like to still be British citizens, just with the full rights of being a British citizen. And they thought that they had earned that right with their performance in the French and Indian wars. They thought they were full partners in empire with the British. And so this narrative. And that. The narrative is brilliantly constructed. 97 depositions. So legal depositions, signed. You know, here's what happened. I wasn't doing anything. They shot first. You know, they're remarkably similar in their soundings, but. 97. And then Benjamin Church writes the narrative. And as you know, Benjamin Church was the traitor. He was the one telling Gage what the Committee of Safety was doing. But I think in order to show that he was still a very much a. A member of the Sons of Liberty, he wrote the narrative, the actual narrative of this battle. And it's brilliantly done. Those two combined are handed to Captain John Derby, who has been told 10 days earlier, put your fastest vessel into ballast only for a transatlantic crossing. Your only cargo is going to be a leather pouch. And that pouch had those narratives. Four days after the fight, you know, Gage puts his battle report, which the first sentence is absolutely brilliant. Brilliant in a sad way. He says, nothing much to trouble your lordships with, but. But a small thing that happened here on 19th instant, you know, the way of saying 19th.

Greg Jackson (33:38)

The 19th of this month. Yeah.

General William Rapp (33:39)

And he puts it on his normal mail packet ship, the 200 ton HMS Suki, and sends it to London. But The Cuero, the 62 ton fast schooner, beats the Suki to London by 12 days. Oh, the narrative goes straight to. They thought it was going to go to Ben Franklin, but Ben Franklin had switched with Arthur Lee. And so John Derby sneaks into London, finds Arthur Lee, hands him this narrative, and Lee sees the brilliance of what it is, and he takes it right to the Lord Mayor of London, John Wilkes. And Wilkes, no fan of the government, publishes the entire thing in the London Evening post. And for 12 days, the only thing that the British people have to read is the colonial narrative. And they're going, wait, wait, wait. Gage will send us what his side of the story was. And his side of the story is nothing much to bother your lordship with. And, you know, from that time, England had great difficulty recruiting soldiers from their own lands because the people are like, what are we doing? We're. We're clearly in the wrong on this, which is why we have Hessian mercenaries coming in. You know, they needed the troops. And that same narrative goes down the coastline. Georgia decides to come, and they have about a month of debate, and on the 14th of June, Congress says, we are embracing this mass of New England militia in the siege around Boston, and we're going to call it the Continental Army. And a day later, brilliantly, John Adams and Sam Adams, much to the chagrin of Hancock, who really wanted. Oh, he was pissed. And they choose George Washington, because what they realized is that you choose Hancock, it is still a New England army. You choose George Washington, it is a continental army. And I thought that was an absolutely brilliant move. So when I look at what is the big turning point in the early part of this, it was that strategic narrative. Joseph Warren, who cut his teeth with Sam Adams on the Boston Massacre. You know, back to our audience. You know, the Boston Massacre, how many people died? Five.

Greg Jackson (35:44)

Five. Yeah.

General William Rapp (35:45)

Yeah. Not much of a massacre. And in fact, it was a mob that was pummeling you know, this one century. Then the 10 reinforcements came up. It was absolutely a contrived little riot.

Greg Jackson (35:56)

Well, there's a reason that John Adams took the case, all right. Was willing to defend the Redcoats, for crying out loud. And that by and large, most of them were acquitted. But, yeah, that doesn't really fit with a massacre narrative. But that was the narrative that won. And to exactly your point. Right. Again, this is winning the narrative.

General William Rapp (36:15)

Yeah. And, you know, so the Boston Massacre, very much a Sam Adams and Joseph Warren piece of creative writing. And it is Joseph Warren who. He doesn't write the narrative, but he's overseeing this whole process because he knows, and Sam Adams says, pushed on him, said, we got two audiences. We got to get it to London before the gauges report, and we've got to get it down to the colonies before the second Continental Congress meets. Absolutely pivotal.

Greg Jackson (36:44)

So, Bill, I think the big takeaway is that Sam Adams was a better creative writer than Brewer.

General William Rapp (36:50)

He was not a very successful brewer, though we do appreciate his beer today.

Greg Jackson (36:55)

That's right. One of my favorite historical documents, as weird as this might seem, is a soldier's journal entry from July 3rd as George Washington's taking over. Right. This ragtag group that we're now calling a Continental Army. And he had written on July 1, nothing of interest today or something to that effect. And July 2nd is ditto. July 3rd. Ditto. That's it. He could not be bothered. I mean, we know from sources George Washington showed up not like a huge thing. He's not the rock star that he will later be as well known as he is across the colonies from his French and Indian War days, or at least, you know, somewhat known. Yeah, There was fife drum in all those things in the comment. And clearly to this. To this soldier, you know, to this militiaman. Yep. I could not care less that this George Washington Virginian has shown up here in New England. It's just a real fun, you know, lens to look in and remember how human these people are, the myths that aren't there yet, and the respect that had to be earned. You know, that George Washington, beloved as he is by the Continental army, as this moves forward, he actually shows up with quite the difficulty to surmount the tensions between the separate colonies. That's a rough thing to overcome.

General William Rapp (38:13)

Exactly. And when Washington shows up, he's appalled by a number of things. He tells his confidant, Joseph Reed, could I have foreseen what I have and about to experience, no consideration upon earth should have ever induced me to Accept this command. What he sees as unbelievable insubordination, terrible field hygiene, everyone's getting dysentery. And because you can't tell somebody where to go do their daily business, he starts instituting, I want to know who the captains are. You've got to put something on. I want to know who the sergeants are. When I come up, somebody's got to be in charge. And I need to talk to someone there. And lots of whippings going on now. And. And so I can only imagine these militia going, what the heck is this? In fact, one of them says, you know, new lords, new laws. He starts instituting court martials of all of the leaders who did not what he felt do their duty at Bunker Hill, Breeds Hill. And that, again, is a shock to. To this army. You're like, what are you. There's accountability being had. You know, I love the Breeds Hill. Bunker Hill is what the. We know it today, but it was fought on Breeds Hill, as you're well aware.

Greg Jackson (39:19)

Yep.

General William Rapp (39:20)

And I. I love the fact that Prescott goes up there and his orders are really clear. Go to Bunker Hill.

Greg Jackson (39:26)

And Bill, forgive me, because I really. We. We blew past it and I think that's my fault. But. So April, Lexington, Concord, monotony. Look at that. I. I'm going to pretend I said that properly. I went.

General William Rapp (39:36)

You did. It was awesome.

Greg Jackson (39:38)

Thank you. Thank you. And so it's June 17th. We have breeds Slash, Bunker Hill or Bunkers Hill, if you want to go John Quincy Adams way of saying it. Then in July, Washington shows up. So all that to say, my apologies, straighten out our timeline back to where you were.

General William Rapp (39:54)

Yeah. So Bunker Hill, you know, they find out that the British are going to move up to the high ground at Dorchester Heights and Bunker Hill. And Bunker Hill still has a fortification on the top of it. When the British, right after the 20th of April, they created a small fortification at the very high ground where the church is now on the Charlestown peninsula is Bunker Hill or Bunkers Hill.

Greg Jackson (40:17)

And if I may, I mean, the geography, right. People who. Even if you know Boston, if you live there today, you. It's a different Boston. All the swampy land that's been filled in to expand Charlestown is really a very pronounced peninsula. It just doesn't look anything like 21st century Boston.

General William Rapp (40:35)

You're exactly right. So Bunker Hill on the Charlestown Peninsula, it's 100 yard wide neck, not quite as narrow. You know, the Roxbury Boston Neck is only about 75 yards wide. So both of them are essentially islands with A little bitty isthmus that you can cross and get onto after the fortifications are started to be built. Right after the siege started, it might as well have been an island, because you had really heavy colonial fortifications just to the west and you had the British Neck fortifications. And that basically created a, you know, a no man's land right there and cut off Boston. But the high ground is Bunker Hill. If you go 800 meters directly toward Boston, you go down a little valley and you come up a smaller hill, about 80ft lower. It is Breeds Hill. And so Joseph Warren on 16 June tells Prescott and Israel Putnam at this Committee of Safety, as peace and reconciliation is what we seek for, should it not be better that we act only on the defensive and give no unnecessary provocation? To which Israel Putnam from Connecticut says, you know, Dr. Warren, we shall have no peace worth anything until we gain it by the sword. But Prescott, who agrees with Putnam, Prescott is a Massachusetts regimental commander, very well respected, is given 1100 troops and said, go up and fortify Bunker Hill and hold it until you're relieved. And they get up there at about 11 o'clock at night on the night of the 16th of June, and they have an argument, him and Israel Putnam and the engineer Richard Gridley. And they take about an hour. And then the soldiers see everybody start moving down to the lower hill, and that's where they built the fortification 400 yards from the anchorage, a direct provocation to the British. And so they build that redoubt there where, for those around Boston, it's where the monument is right now. The Bunker Hill Monument sits on Breed's Hill, right in the middle of that fortification. And that is way too close for the British to do. Major General John Burgoyne, when they have their meeting the British, what are we going to do? He says, this is an opportunity to clearly show this rabble what the power of disciplined troops in the attack can do. We did not have a good day on the 19th of April. This is where we show them what the best infantry in the world can do.

Greg Jackson (42:55)

Hubris strikes again.

General William Rapp (42:56)

Oh, my goodness. But you know, by. By 3 o'clock in the afternoon when this fight starts, that 1100 has dwindled to 350 with Putnam due to desertion. One of the eyewitnesses says it was not surprising to see one wounded man carried away by 20 to the safety of. So then he orders Moulton of the Connecticut line to go extend the line out a little bit because they've got this wide open left flank and that's when Stark comes up. Stark leading the first and the third New Hampshire. And Stark, who's this old fighter with Rogers, Robert, you know, Rogers, Rangers. He is a very astute combat leader. Without any coordination from Prescott. He sees immediately that Prescott's left is completely in the wind. And he moves his guys down, gets behind this rail fence and puts three companies right down on the beach. And that's where he posts himself. And he walks out 50 yards, and he puts a pile of rocks. And he comes back and he says, I will run through with my sword anyone who fires before the regulars get to my pile of rocks at 50 yards. And that's where the initial attack happened. All of those light infantry coming right up the beach. And it is an absolute slaughter. The first two waves, absolutely pummeled against Stark and against Knowlton and then against Prescott. And Prescott by this time, with no reinforcement, nobody bringing powder. And there's thousands of guys on Bunker Hill with Israel Putnam, thousands of them. No one going forward to reinforce Prescott with the exception of Stark. The first and the Third. Third under Colonel Reed of New Hampshire, they come forward, but they're on the left. And that third attack, by now, the colonials in the redoubt have run out of ammunition and they don't have bayonets. That's where Joseph Warren is killed. 115 or so Americans killed, most of them in that redoubt when it is swarmed over by the British. John Pitcairn is killed yards from the readout as he's attacking with the Royal Marines.

Greg Jackson (44:59)

You've mentioned a number of big names, at least big for those who know revolutionary history. Right. Are there any specifics about their leadership that you think stand out any differently from what was seen at Lexington and Concord?

General William Rapp (45:11)

Think about the orders that Stark was given. His order said, reinforce Prescott on Bunker Hill. Two parts to that order. Reinforce Prescott and a location on Bunker Hill. And he gets up to Bunker Hill. And Prescott's not on bunker hill. Prescott's 800 yards forward. But what he says is, I understand the intent of the orders that I have been given. I am not going to follow my orders to the letter. Which means stop here at Bunker Hill. It is reinforced. Prescott, and he moves forward. All those other upwards of 3,000 colonial troops stopped at Bunker Hill and did not go forward. John Stark writes after the battle, had Putnam, Israel Putnam is on Bunker Hill with all of those 3,000 troops. Had Putnam done his duty, he would have decided the fate of this country and its very first action. And William Prescott has an argument with Putnam right afterwards. He says, why did you not bring up men in my support? And Putnam says, I could not drive the dogs forward. And Prescott calmly says, if you could not drive them up, perhaps you might have led them up. Oh, this idea of where's your leadership? By example, you know. So when I look at Stark, I see what I would call disciplined disobedience. He understood the intent of the orders that he was given and fulfilled them, and I think was absolutely instrumental. I look at Prescott, who disobeyed his orders and brought on a general action that he had no real authority to do so, but his conduct in the fight was remarkable. I look at Israel Putnam as not having done his duty. And although Putnam, as you know, had a mythical reputation for bravery, you know, and there's all of these stories about Israel Putnam, but when it mattered on Bunker Hill and Breeds Hill, he was not the leader that the men needed. He wouldn't lead by example and lead them forward. And Thomas Gage now has kind of seen the light. He said, these people show a spirit and a conduct against us that they never showed against the French. And everybody has judged them by their former appearance and conduct, which has led to a great many mistakes. I think they understand now what they're up against.

Greg Jackson (47:24)

Okay, another quick break and then we're going to jump ahead to March 1776, when Boston was finally liberated from the British. Get ready to charge up Dorchester Heights with General George Washington as analyzed by my guest, General William Rapp. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.

Instacart (48:01)

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going Cha Ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com.

General William Rapp (49:15)

So Washington has to create an army. He actually has to create two armies. The army that he takes over in July disbands in November and December. They believe they only signed up for a contract through the end of the calendar year. In January of 1776, George Washington writes to John Hancock. It is not in the pages of history perhaps to furnish a case like ours to maintain a post within musket shot of the enemy for six months without gunpowder and at the same time to disband one army and recruit another within that distance of 20 odd British regiments is probably more than ever was attempted. This idea of George Washington and how he was able to keep everything together and he's itching for a fight. And you know where he gets this? He gets the inspiration for how he's going to solve this dilemma of how do you get the British out of Boston? From two very unlikely sources. Two of my favorite young people. Henry Knox, who's 25 years old, he's a bookseller, he's very gregarious, doesn't look very soldierly, he's overweight, but he's got a very inventive mind. And In November of 1775, Knox comes to Washington and says, General Washington, if you would allow me to, I can go to Fort Ticonderoga and retrieve the cannon that are there. Remember Benedict Arnold and Ethan Allen took Fort Ticonderoga in May, but then left and it's absolutely abandoned. But all the cannon are there, right? And this is a winter march. And he comes back with 59 cannon weighing over 62 tons. They were counting on a lot of snow and they would just drag him on sleds over the snow in the frozen rivers. But then there's a snap thaw in January and it makes things really, really difficult. But he gets back by the end of January with all of these cannon and then he has to start training people how to use them. And George Washington, it's a cold winter in Massachusetts and the ground is frozen and George Washington wants to take Dorchester Heights and he wants to fortify it, but you can't dig too much in the ground and he's scrambling to find an idea. And this young engineer officer, Rufus Putnam, comes up with this idea. He knows it's in a book, field fortifications book by the British. And it's a thing called chandeliers and gabions. Think of those, what you put firewood in. You know, it's the frame that could hold firewood. You turn it sideways and you put fascines of. Of sticks all bundled together, and you can create kind of an instant wall. And a gabion is a woven barrel that you fill with dirt, and you put a bunch of those next to each other. You know that the gabion is how we built almost all of our forts in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last 20 years.

Greg Jackson (52:05)

Really?

General William Rapp (52:06)

Same technique that Rufus Putnam used on Dorchester Heights is how we built above ground level.

Greg Jackson (52:13)

And, Bill, you might know this, but that was also used at Yorktown.

General William Rapp (52:18)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Rufus Putnam takes his idea to John Thomas, is the general ahead of him. And Thomas loves the idea. Takes him right to George Washington. George Washington says, young man, get after it. And they. They just mobilize. And on that one night, the night of the 4th and 5th of March, they send 800 men under Thomas to include five companies of riflemen new to the war. There were no rifles at Lexington and Concord, no rifles at Bunker Hill. That's security. And then a whole bunch of Teamsters, over 350 wagons, with all the teamsters hauling all of this prefabricated material up, 1200 soldiers, that are the laborers, they're building these forts, and at sunrise, 3,000 more join them to man the forts. Finish them and be prepared. And when they wake up in the morning and they look up there, Sir William Howe, who's now in charge, Gage, has gone home, says, my God, these fellows have done more in one night than I could make my entire army do in three months. And his engineer, John Montresser, says, the colonials raised the forts with an expedition equal to that of the genie belonging to Aladdin's wonderful lamp in one night. They built multiple big forts on the top, and they were all armed by the time the sun came up on the 5th of March. Contrast, the level of organization that this army was able to do on the 5th of March to what they did on the 17th of June on Bunker Hill. Very haphazard. There's no organization to it. It was a disaster, but it was brilliantly executed. America doesn't know about Dorchester Heights because the British, for many reasons, never attacked it, much to Washington's chagrin. And they send out a flag of Truce and says, if you let us leave without molesting us, we will be gone. If you molest us, we will burn Boston to the ground. And they make the decision. And evacuation day happens, and we still celebrate it today. You know, this month in, in March, the British sail off, never to come back to Boston for the remainder of the war. But most Americans don't know about Dorchester Heights because the battle never happened.

Greg Jackson (54:31)

Right. Because it was so successful, it was so effective at preserving life.

General William Rapp (54:36)

Yeah, you're exactly right. It was, it was unbelievable.

Greg Jackson (54:40)

Well, and, you know, I'll just go ahead and say, just to make sure listeners catch this, because it is so important, is that when you think about those three peninsulas again, right, the Charlestown to the north, Boston the center, and Dorchester, Dorchester on the south, that you.

General William Rapp (54:56)

Sound like a Southie. You're good.

Greg Jackson (54:57)

That's what I'm going for. Thank you. The way that the elevation worked is that Washington was effectively impenetrable. That British cannon could not reach them, yet they could have unleashed on the British down in the harbor below and.

General William Rapp (55:13)

With their longer range guns like the 18 pounders and the 24 pounders could hit the anchorage. All of those, it basically made untenable the entire Anchorage. For the Royal Navy that was supporting.

Greg Jackson (55:25)

Him, it had to be utterly embarrassing. And I think, you know, as you talk about leadership, I'm not saying anything new to you, but for Washington to listen, and this is George Washington to a T, right. He does it throughout the entire war. He gets his military family, his council of war, that by and large really excels at having a good sense of when it's time to defer to them, which is more often than not.

General William Rapp (55:46)

Yeah. And, you know, I, I love George Washington here. You know, I, I, I fall into the camp of he was the indispensable man in the American Revolution. You know, he led by kind of four tenets. The first is he led by example. Second was he was relentless in his pursuit of worthy goals. Kept his eye on the prize, if you will. His third was leverage the talents of the team and dig down into the team to figure out where those talents are. Because a lot of times, like Knox and Putnam, they come from unexpected places. And finally, his fourth was to be personally resilient when faced with setbacks because there is no easy sailing when you've got a difficult job. There's always going to be setbacks. And how can you continue to be present, to be a positive force moving forward?

Greg Jackson (56:35)

Thank you for having the conversation, Bill.

General William Rapp (56:38)

You know, when I, my book is about a staff ride. A staff ride is something that the American army and the British army, the Marine Corps use. You go to a historical site, you want to learn about contemporary leadership. From it, you learn about the leaders that went there. There's a lot of study involved. It's not just a historical tour. And that that's where my passion lies. And you've given me a wonderful opportunity to talk about some of those leadership lessons of these amazing folks that are part of this Boston campaign that began the American Revolution.

Greg Jackson (57:08)

Well, my friends, I think we're all well prepared now for a staff ride to these historic Revolutionary War sites, but there's one other story I'd like to tell you of exemplary courage and leadership. It's the story of 30 year old Captain Isaac Davis, the first colonial officer killed in the battle at Concord on April 19, 1775. The story is narrated by me with full sound design and is available right now along with many other bonus stories from past episodes. As part of the HTDS membership program, you can start a 7 day trial today and access this content plus ad free episodes delivered to the most popular podcast apps like Spotify and Apple. Just go to htdspodcast.com membership or click the link in the episode notes. History that Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by Greg Jackson. Episode Produced by Dawson McCraw with research assistants by Ella Hendrickson Production by Airship Sound design by Molly Bach Theme music composed by Greg Jackson Arrangement in additional composition by Lindsey Graham of Ayrsham HTDS is supported by fans@htdspodcast.com membership my gratitude to you kind souls providing funding to help us keep going. Thank you and a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Ahmad Chapman, Andy Thompson, Art Lang, Bob Stinnett, Brad Davidson Bronwyn Cohen, Bruce Hibbert Carissa Sedlak, Charlie Mages, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman Dan Gee, David Rifkin Durante Spencer Donald Moore Ellen Stewart Elizabeth Christiansen a. Civillado Ernie Lomaster G2303 George J. Sherwood Henry Brunges Polly Hamilton Jake Gilbreth, James Bledsoe Janie McCreary Jeff Marks Jessica Poppett Joe Dobas, John Booby, John Frugal, Dougal John Oliveros, John Rudlevich John Schaefer Jonathan Turrell, Jordan Corbett, Joshua Steiner, Justin M. Spriggs Justin May, Kim R. Kim Renner Kristen Pratt, Kyle Decker L. Paul Goeringer Lawrence Neubauer, Linda Cunningham Matt Siegel, Melanie Jan, Nate Secunder, Nick Caffrell Noah Hoff, Owen W. Sedlak, Reese Humphries, Wadsworth, Rick Brown, Robert Drazovich, Sarah Trewick, Sharon Thiessen, Shawn Baines, Stacey Ritter, Steven Williams, the Creepy Girl, Thomas Sabbath, Zach Green and Zack Jackson. Join me in two weeks. I'd like to tell you a story. HTDS is supported by fans@htdspodcast.com membership. My gratitude to you kind souls providing funding to help us keep going. Thank you. And a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Ahmad Chapman, Andy Thompson, Art Lang, Bob Stinna, Brad Davidson, Bronwyn Cohen, Bruce Hibbert, Carissa Sedlak, Charlie Mages, Chloe Tripp, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Pullman, Dan Gee, David Rifkin, Durante Spencer, Donald Moore, Ellen Stewart, Elizabeth Kristiansen, ociviado, Ernie Lomaster, G2303 George J. Sherwood, Henry Brunges, Polly Hamilton, Jake Gilbreth, James Bledsoe, Janie McCre, Jeff Marks, Jessica Poppin, Joe Dobas, John Boovie, John Frugal, Dougal, John Oliveros, John Rudlevich, John Schaefer, Jonathan Turrell, Jordan Corbett, Joshua Steiner, Justin M. Spriggs, Justin May, K. Kim R. Kim Reniger, Kristen Pratt, Kyle Decker, L. Paul Goringer, Lawrence Neubauer, Linda Cunningham, Matt Siegel, Melanie Jan Nake Secunder, Nick Caffrel, Noah Hoff, Owen W. Sedlak, Reese Humphries, Wadsworth, Rick Brown, Robert Drazovich, Sarah Trawick, Sharon Thiessen, Sean Baines, Stacy Ritter, Steven Williams, the Creepy Girl, Thomas Sabbath, Zach Green and Zach Jackson. Join me in two weeks. I'd like to tell you a story.