Legends of the Knights Templar

Summary

Summary of "Legends of the Knights Templar" Episode

Podcast Title: History's Greatest Conspiracy Theories
Episode: Legends of the Knights Templar
Host: Rob Attar
Guest: Dr. Steve Tibble, Author of The Knights Who Made Britain
Release Date: July 21, 2025
Produced by: History Extra

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Introduction to the Knights Templar

Rob Attar opens the episode by delving into the enigmatic history of the Knights Templar, a military religious order that played a pivotal role during the Crusades. He introduces Dr. Steve Tibble to shed light on whether the Templars truly vanished in the 14th century or if remnants survived to influence modern conspiracies.

Key Discussion Points:

• Origins and Role: The Knights Templar emerged in the aftermath of the First Crusade (1096-1099), primarily tasked with defending Christian holdings in the Holy Land. They were both monks and warriors, a unique combination that established them as a formidable force in medieval Europe and the Middle East.

Suppression and Early Conspiracy Theories

Dr. Tibble provides an overview of the Templars' sudden suppression in the early 14th century, orchestrated by King Philip of France, who coveted their wealth.

Notable Quote:

"The Templars were victims of the same methodology" (Ryan Reynolds, [06:58]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Accusations Faced: The Templars were charged with a litany of crimes ranging from heresy, worshipping devils, to forming secret cults. These accusations echoed through centuries, morphing into enduring conspiracy theories.
• Use of Torture: Dr. Tibble emphasizes that confessions obtained under torture were unreliable, leading him to believe that the charges were largely fabricated to seize the Templars' assets.

Historical Evidence vs. Myth

Rob and Dr. Tibble explore the lack of substantial evidence supporting the more sensational claims about the Templars, such as possessing the Holy Grail or establishing secret societies.

Notable Quotes:

"Nobody confessed to anything and the inquisitors could produce no evidence really whatsoever" (Ryan Reynolds, [06:58]).

"The truth about the Templars in Scotland amounts to two Englishmen" (Ryan Reynolds, [09:51]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Survival Claims: While a handful of Templars did escape during the crackdown, there is scant evidence to support the notion of a surviving, organized Templar order.
• Rosslyn Chapel Connection: The famed Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland, often linked to Templar lore, was actually constructed centuries after the order's dissolution, with no direct ties to the Templars.

Modern Resurgence of Templar Myths

The conversation shifts to how Templar myths have been perpetuated and evolved in modern times, especially with the advent of the internet and popular media.

Notable Quote:

"The Templars are a blank piece of paper or vellum" (Ryan Reynolds, [09:51]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Media Influence: The proliferation of low-budget documentaries, novels, and online content has revitalized Templar conspiracies, often embellishing or fabricating connections.
• Cultural Adoption: From Sir Walter Scott's portrayal to their adoption by Freemasonry, the Templars have been molded to fit various narratives, contributing to their mythos.

Templars and Relics: The Holy Grail Connection

One of the most enduring myths is the Templars' association with the Holy Grail. Dr. Tibble examines the origins and validity of this claim.

Notable Quote:

"To say that the Holy Grail was in Templar hands is a step too far" (Ryan Reynolds, [24:53]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Historical Relics: While Templars were involved in trading and transporting relics, including the Holy Lance and the True Cross, there is no credible evidence linking them to the Holy Grail.
• Myth Formation: The association likely stems from the early 12th-century legends surrounding the Grail and the Templars' prominent role in the Crusades, creating a fertile ground for later embellishments.

Templar Survival and Continuity

The episode addresses the core of many conspiracy theories: the alleged survival and continuity of the Templar Order into the modern era.

Notable Quote:

"There isn't a real line. James Merle was the last Templar master" (Ryan Reynolds, [30:26]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Lack of Evidence: Historical records indicate that the Templar Order was effectively disbanded, with no continuous lineage or hidden masters sustaining the order beyond the 14th century.
• Modern Templar Orders: While various groups today claim descent from the original Templars, they lack legitimate historical ties and are often products of the 19th-century romanticism surrounding the order.

Political Appropriation of Templar Imagery

The misuse of Templar symbols and mythology by political groups, particularly elements of the far-right, is examined.

Notable Quote:

"The Templars are not a racially motivated organization" (Ryan Reynolds, [32:43]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Historical Multiculturalism: Contrary to modern racial reinterpretations, the original Templars operated in a highly multicultural environment, engaging diplomatically with various ethnic groups.
• Symbolic Manipulation: Contemporary far-right movements co-opt Templar imagery to lend historical gravitas to their agendas, distorting the order's true legacy.

Combatting Templar Fantasies: The Role of Historians

In the concluding segment, Rob Attar and Dr. Tibble discuss strategies for historians to address and mitigate the spread of Templar-related conspiracy theories.

Notable Quote:

"Historians need to carry on saying that so that people understand the truth" (Ryan Reynolds, [35:37]).

Key Discussion Points:

• Public Engagement: Historians should continue to disseminate accurate historical narratives, emphasizing the multicultural and diplomatic nature of the Templars.
• Balancing Education and Entertainment: Acknowledging that media portrayals, while sometimes inaccurate, can spark interest in history. Therefore, providing nuanced insights can enhance public understanding without dismissing popular culture.
• Challenges of the Digital Age: With information readily accessible online, combating myths requires proactive and engaging historical discourse.

Conclusion and Future Directions

Rob Attar wraps up the episode by highlighting the importance of distinguishing historical facts from myths. He encourages listeners to approach conspiracy theories with a critical mind and to seek out scholarly research for accurate information.

Final Quote:

"There's nothing particularly right wing about the Templars at all" (Ryan Reynolds, [35:28]).

Rob teases the next episode, which will explore the theory that the 1969 moon landing was faked, inviting listeners to continue their journey through history's most intriguing conspiracies.

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Additional Resources:

• The Knights Who Made Britain by Dr. Steve Tibble
• Visit History Extra for more episodes and related content.

Transcript

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[Ryan Reynolds]

This is a History Extra production In.

[Rob Attar]

The early 14th century, the Knights Templar was suppressed and the 200 year history of this military religious order came to an abrupt end. Or did it? What if some of the Templars escaped persecution to operate secretly until the present day, holding onto relics such as the Holy Grail and maybe even discovering America? Welcome to History's greatest Conspiracy Theories from History Extra. I'm Rob Attar, and to delve into the world of Templar conspiracy theories, I was joined by Dr. Steve Tibble, author of the Knights who Made Britain. Could we begin by looking at the Knights Templar themselves? Who were they and what were their main activities?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, the Templars were a papal order, so they were monks, they were military monks. So people call them one of the military orders, and that's the big clue. They were both military and a monastic order, which is an extraordinary thing. And they came out of extraordinary circumstances and extraordinary times. So they arose in the aftermath of the First Crusade. And if you cast your mind back, the First Crusade was a strange, very violent pilgrimage to the Middle east that recaptured Jerusalem in 1099. And in a way, a lot of people at the time thought, wow, this is fantastic. We've really done well. And on one level, they had, because they were incredibly lucky to have done what they did. But having got there and done that, most of the guys then went home because they thought, oh, okay, that's brilliant. Yeah, job done. I can go and see my family after four or five years. But what that did leave was a huge problem, which is, how do you defend the Holy Land, given that the First Crusade brought it back into Christian hands? And the Templars were part of the solution to that problem, because what people on the ground needed was a military force that could help them defend these lands. Obviously, everybody in the Holy Land was surrounded by hostile neighbors, all of whom were much larger. Everybody was outnumbered. So people needed a standing army, and those were very, very thin on the ground. In Western Europe in the Middle Ages, I mean, basically standing on is finished when the last Roman legionary went home. And the Templars and their rivals, the Hospitallers, were an effort by the papacy to try and bridge that gap. So they became a standing army in the Middle east and they operated in Europe to try and raise funds and support castle building and hiring mercenaries and so on in the Holy Land.

[Rob Attar]

And perhaps quite unusually, compared to some of the other conspiracy theories that we're looking at here, there were conspiracy theories around the Templars at the time, too, weren't there? So what were some of the accusations that were levelled at them when they were operating?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, the Templars are in the really unusual situation where we've got evidence, significant evidence going back nearly a thousand years for how they operated and why they did the things they did. After the Holy Land collapsed, the Templars were basically redundant and the order was closed down primarily at the behest of the King of France, King Philip, who wanted their cash. I mean, if we sort of cut to the chase. But they were accused of some extraordinary things. Witchcraft, Satanism, worshipping devils, being a secret society, being a cult within Christendom, There were a mass of conspiracy theories at the time. And funnily enough, this is one of the incredibly rare occasions where those conspiracy theories reverberate through the ages. And it doesn't matter whether you're looking at a chronicle written on vellum or a cheap Victorian novel or the Internet, a lot of that remains constant. So you can see a constancy of the conspiracy theories, but also about human beings and their emotional needs. If we say that a lot of conspiracy theories come out of our emotional need for comfort, for understanding, for a father figure or a God figure, you can see the constancy of that over almost a thousand years. And it also begs the question, if we can look at the evidence from the 14th century, what does that tell us about the conspiracy theories now? Because to me, the big elephant in the room that nobody really talks about is that if the Templars were innocent in 1314, then they're probably innocent in 2023 as well. And we do actually have quite a lot of evidence about whether they were innocent or guilty. So I think that's something that is very interesting to explore.

[Rob Attar]

Is there any evidence to any of the charges that were laid against them at the time?

[Ryan Reynolds]

There is some minor evidence of wrongdoing. Nobody would suggest that they are plaster saints. These were the muscular arm of the monastic movement. And obviously the Templars were composed of large numbers of human beings. And whenever you have an organization with human beings, they do bad things. Somebody's going to steal something, somebody's going to behave in an inappropriate way, and so on. So if you take that as a given, but look deeper than that, what you find is they were accused of a wide range of different offenses, ranging from very minor things, which were often just ignorance, through to really outlandishly huge things like creating their own secret religion, working alongside the enemy to destroy Christendom and the Crusader states and so on and everything in between. What you do find, to me, the really compelling piece of evidence is that when you use torture, as they did in France, and a lot of Templars died under torture rather than perjure themselves, when you use torture, everybody confesses. And to me, it's a resounding indictment of how not only that torture is repugnant, but it's also ineffective. Basically, if you torture somebody, they'll say whatever you want. So the Templars in France admitted to being heretics, to being Satan worshippers, to committing acts of bestiality with cats, and, you know, you name it, they confessed to it, because that was what they were being told to confess to by the people who were burning their feet off in places like England and Ireland where the judicial system didn't have such a ready kind of recourse to torture. Nobody confessed to anything and the inquisitors could produce no evidence really whatsoever. So I'm certainly inclined, almost 100% positive that the charges were false. They were brought against the Templars because the French Crown wanted their cash. It's very, very venal. And they did it again. The same French government pillaged the Jewish community because they had money and they wanted it. And a few years later, they did exactly the same to the lepers. Ironically, 1321, the French government discovered that the leper community were actually in cahoots with Jews and Muslims to destroy and poison the wells and kill good Catholics in France. Now, clearly that was absolute madness. But again, it was another part of this well organized methodology for closing down vulnerable groups and stealing their assets. And I think what we see with the Templars is that they were victims of the same methodology.

[Rob Attar]

So as you've said, there is a continuous line really of these conspiracy theories about the Templars. But is there a point in the more modern period where they really start to grow again and come into the popular imagination?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Templar conspiracies are fun. You know, human beings are weak and we know we're open to temptations and we want prurient stories. So in a way, the Templars and their conspiracy theories are the tabloid material of the Middle Ages and that makes them very compelling. So they do actually gain a life of their own way beyond the Templars. One thing that you also find apropos your point is that it's also geared around the media. So partly it's about human beings and what human beings want. And they want prurient, attractive, lurid stories, but they also have to receive these stories in different ways. So obviously there's been a huge uptick more recently when we got the growth of the Internet. And the growth of the Internet has also promoted cheap tv. So there's a lot more scope to build up more content. Very low budget TV documentaries, for instance, podcasts such as this. I mean, there's a whole range of media now, so people have an access to a lot more than they used to. But that's actually not just a 20th and 21st century phenomenon. You find pretty much the same thing happened in the 19th century, the early 19th century, when the novel, we sort of forget that the novel is a relatively modern invention as well. And the invention of the cheap novel in the early 1800s brought a real uptick in Templar stories as well. And Sir Walter Scott, who's great on one level, but he's also got a lot to answer for. And one of those things is the way that he positioned the Templars as these kind of larger than life pantomime villains. And if you go back even before that to the 18th century, there's a huge uptick around Freemasonry once Freemasonry starts. And that organization has a need to create a kind of fictitious backstory that makes it interesting and compelling for people so that they might want to join the Freemasons. You find the Templars instantly appear there because they're posh, because they've got this. There are kind of conspiracy theories about the arcane knowledge they had and the secrets of the universe and what have you. So as well as being posh, they're also. They have access to knowledge that no one else does. And they're also brave and elite. So you can see as a backstory for an organization trying to create itself. It's wonderful because they can create all these ultimately false but attractive connections with a group that isn't around anymore to defend itself. So that's the wonderful thing about the Templars is they disappeared. They stopped in 1314, so they can't answer back. Also, all their records were destroyed. So I used to work a lot on the hospital records through the parallel organization. And they are so dull. There is nothing in there about the Shroud of Tyrion. There are no receipts for the Holy Grail. You know, there's all the stuff that you'd expect to find there. There isn't there at all. It's amazingly boring. And I'm sure the Templar records were just as mind numbingly dull. But because they've all disappeared, and because the Order disappeared in this cluster of tabloid stories, they're a blank piece of paper now. We can just write whatever we want on them. And the fact that we've got so many new media that allow us to do that and access all that really makes it a case study in how to create almost a kind of secular religion out of a few crazy ideas.

[Rob Attar]

So coming on to look at some of the more modern conspiracy theories, a thread that runs through quite a few of them is that some Templars survived and then did all kinds of interesting, unusual things. But is there any evidence for a survival of some members of the Knights Templar post the early 14th century conspiracy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Theories almost always require a renegade Templar organization. So there have to be renegades for pretty much all of the conspiracy theories. Because if you believe that The Templars really did die out. When they did, then you can't, there's nothing, you've got nothing to work with, you've got no material. So you have to create a backstory where hundreds and thousands of Templars are at loose in Europe. They have fleets, they can regroup and create an elite army again, they can discover America or whatever. Whatever you want them to do requires a body of these fanatical SAS type monks to be available. And there is a tiny, tiny glimmer of truth to some of it. We do know, I mean clearly that they were a group of people who were being rounded up and arrested and in many cases tortured. Not in Britain, but in some cases around Europe. So you could see from their point of view there's a lot of Templars who would have been motivated to, to say, yeah, sorry guys, I'll be off then. And so a few people did slip away. And if you look for instance at the British example, we've got the transcripts of the people being interrogated when the Templars were arrested. And we know that there were a dozen or so guys basically did a runner, funnily enough. We also know that most of them came back because after a while they realized they couldn't go to France because they get burnt. And if they stayed in Britain, they were probably just going to get a pension and lose. Little slap on the wrist and told to go home really. So they gradually kind of came in in dribs and drabs. We even know that some of them escaped to Ireland and they weren't actually hiding in secret, they were receiving a government pension. But because the government didn't believe they were guilty, they weren't even interrogated as part of the trial. So these guys were basically just told to behave themselves and keep sturm and then it would all go away. So we do know there were some renegades, but the idea that those few old men who were probably just looking to go back to their families, that they in any way constituted an elite army with fleets and so on, is just risible. We know, for instance, some of the conspiracy theories relating to Scotland emerge from the idea that there was a Templar army forming in the west of Scotland after the collapse. And this, again, it's based on no evidence. Ironically, one of the very few places in Britain where the Templars didn't have big assets was the west coast of Scotland. So I don't know where that idea even came from. And there's no evidence that they had ships to allow them to sail up the coast to there. And we do know that there were actually only two Templars in Scotland, both of whom were English, by the way. So the idea that there was this kind of random elite force building up there has no evidence at all. And conspiracy theorists have used that ghost army to try and make a story about how Bannockburn was won. Don't know if you remember, this was a great battle. Robert the Bruce defeated the English, and the story goes that it was the Templars who actually did this. That halfway through the battle, the Templar army appeared. The English started quaking and started melting away as soon as they saw that they were facing elite troops. And to me, it's just embarrassing and insulting on so many different levels. Mostly, it's just insulting to Robert the Bruce. He was a, you know, fought a really good battle. He was a good general there. He was outnumbered, but he still managed to win. We don't need to create a fake Templar army to make his victory, and it is demeaning to suggest that he needed one. There are lots of chronicles that are contemporary to the battle. None of them mention this Templar army, of course, because it wasn't there. As I mentioned, the Templars in Scotland amounted to two Englishmen, one of whom was from London. The other one don't know. We don't know where he was from. And there's no evidence of a. A Templar army at all. It's. It's really just a nice. It's a folk story. Makes a great story to tell around the fire at night, but no. No evidence whatsoever. Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has the spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch does it McDonald's breakfast.

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[Rob Attar]

Sticking with the Scotland example, of course, one of the great locations for Templar mythology is Rosslyn Chapel. Is there actually any connection between that building and the Templars? And if not, why has this come about?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, they're both really good questions. I mean there are. Even if you look on the official website, there are still stray kind of references and you can tell by the kind of language, the vocabulary says it all. If you look at it and anywhere on the Internet you'll see talk of connections to the Holy Grail and links to the Templars. And as a historian, I'm not sure what a connection is. I really would like evidence. And in fact the Rosslyn thing, it's a bit like the Battle of Bannockburn. You don't need the Templars to be there. It's a beautiful, beautiful chapel. It's a great piece of work. There's nothing Templar about it that I know of. The builders didn't start putting the foundations in until about 150 years after the Templars had ceased to exist. I've no idea why anybody would even think that it had a Templar connection. The Sinclair family, who were the owners of it, did have some links to the Templars in earlier years, a couple of hundred years earlier, but they were actually anti Templar. It looks as though they perjured themselves in the trials to try and get hold of some of the Templar lands. So the idea that they were somehow matey with the Templars and created this chapel is again pretty ridiculous and it is unnecessary. You know, Rusty. And Chapel is a beautiful work of art in its own right and having to create these kind of fakes is not helpful at all.

[Rob Attar]

One thing you mentioned in an earlier answer that I'd like to talk a bit more about is this idea of the Templars going to America, which seems quite outlandish, seems quite far fetched and actually in a way can connects to some other conspiracy theories that we've talked about on this podcast about other groups supposedly discovering America prior to people that we know actually did go there. So what's the story about the Templars? How and why did they go to America?

[Ryan Reynolds]

The story of the Templars in America is it's broad ranging really and it does have a kernel of possibility, if not truth. So the Templars were famous for logistics. The big part of their role really was providing help for the Holy Land. And to transport things from Europe to the Holy Land, you needed shipping. So they were very good at medieval logistics and the shipping that went with that. And you find, for instance, with the English Crown, they would not only be building ships and running their own little fleets, but they almost acted like used car dealers. So King John, for instance, we know we've got the records from him buying a secondhand ship from them. I think it was from the Portuguese, armed the Templars, and they even gave King John a little note of sale saying, if you don't like it, you can always bring it back and exchange it for another one. It was that kind of thing. So they have a strangely modern role in terms of logistics. They also did have some assets, so they did own ships, they leased ships and so on. We also can combine that with the knowledge that the Order was shut down. So again, we come back to our renegades, our escapee Templars, who might be looking to get away from Europe because they feel they've been betrayed by papacy and the French throne and so on. And looking, with hindsight, we could say, oh, okay, well, where are they going to go? They can't go anywhere around Europe, can't go to the Middle east because, you know, clearly they're even more unpopular over there. So why don't we, you know, why didn't they go to the Americas? And that way, then we've got a whole new backstory that we can put onto them. So there are. There are a couple of kernels, possibility, but you'd have to say that's all it is. My understanding of medieval shipping is it does not last very long. You find, for instance, Richard the Lionheart had a superb fleet that he used to transport his army down to the Middle east and North Africa and Sicily and army to Cyprus. And within a couple of years, that fleet ceased to exist. King John was having to build another one pretty much from scratch. And it's because those kind of ships were not sturdy. They. They're basically bits of wood that are rotting. You even find in some of the Scandinavian Crusades, the guys go down in ships from Norway or Denmark and they just end up having to leave their ships there. The ships are so rotten that they end up coming back through Byzantium and they take the river route back to Scandinavia that way. So they do a kind of a circle. So medieval shipping is not as we imagine. It's not like now where you might have a battleship from World War II that is still seeing service in the Gulf War or whatever. These were very short, short life vessels. The other thing I guess is, as far as I know, there's no evidence that the Templars did anything to do with shipping in America. There are some. I know some documents, but as far as I can gather, they're not legitimate. And even the ones that might be are very vague and don't actually say much about America at all. And it also comes back to the other big issue of where are these escaped Templars? And I know from looking at, in particular my case study writing down the British Templars, there were just a tiny number of really old guys who all they wanted to do was go home. They just wanted to disappear and go back to their families or maybe join the Hospitallers. Some of them seemed to do that. And in Portugal, some of the guys joined other military orders there. There's no big exodus of young elite soldiers in command of a fleet looking to do crazy things. I totally admire it as a piece of storytelling, but as a historian, I'd have to discount it.

[Rob Attar]

And of course, one place that we know the Templars did go was the Middle east, the Holy Land. And a number of the conspiracy theories about them today connect to ideas that they brought back relics from the Holy Land, in particular the Holy Grail, but potentially other things. I mean, is there any evidence at all that they did bring back relics of different nature back to Western Europe?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Absolutely, yeah. And in fact, this is something I'd say that isn't a conspiracy theory. It's true. We have a very, obviously a very secular view of relics. Most people nowadays would be very cynical. If you get the clippings of, you know, toenail clippings of St. Catherine or whatever, and it's in a glass jar and you're supposed to believe that that's what that is. But we have to remember we're in a time where everybody is much more pious and genuinely. Of all religions actually, that genuinely believe these kind of things. For them, whether it's literally true or not, those relics are a great focus for devotion. So they are almost like a laser way of focusing your spiritual thoughts and giving you a tangible connection to not just the past, but to gods and so on. So although we might be cynical about it, at the time they were real. They were real to the people around them. And in the same way that the Crusaders were, a lot of them were military tourists. I think they'd go out to the Middle east, do whatever they were going to do, and then come back. There was also a large element of religious tourism. So you find A lot of the shrines out there, a lot of the churches become a focal point for people from the west going out and paying their devotions. And similarly in the Muslim and Jewish worlds as well, these shrines were a focal point for, for many, all the Abrahamic religions. So religious tourism is real. Relics to them were real. And in a sense the Crusader states, the countries that were set up by the Crusaders had religious tourism as one of their industries. And part of that industry was finding relics and sometimes they were taken back to Europe. There was a kind of, in a way that was one of the ways of exploitation, in the same ways we might find diamonds or manganese and transport that back. For the Crusaders, finding the Holy Lance or the true cross where Jesus was crucified or anything like that, for them it was real, it was tangible and it was a marvelous thing. So the Templars were involved in that. Everybody was. I mean the Kings of Jerusalem, the Hospitallers, the Templars, everybody wanted a piece of that action. So that aspect of it is true. If you get into the specifics of something like the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, then I'd have to say that there isn't, as far as I know, any real evidence that the Templars had the Holy Grail. Certainly the Genoese traded off a huge amount of money, potential money, to take what they thought was the Holy Grail back. And in fact it's still around. It's in the cathedral in Genoa. It's a lovely glass Grail like thing because everybody wanted it. Even the most hard nosed businessman, like a Genoese investment banker, was prepared to pay a fortune for something that they thought was the holy ground. But as far as I know, there's no evidence that the Templars had it at all, though doubtless they were involved in trading relics, bringing things back. And they were also used as ways of trading influence. So you might find a king who's say a king of England or king of Scotland who's wavering, he's wondering whether he wants to go on crusade or not. And then miraculously, you might find his local Templars come along and say, well, funny you should say that, King David or whoever, here's a glass vial with three drops of the blood of Jesus. This gives you a sense of the intensity of the religious experience that you can achieve if you actually do go on crusade. So it can be used as kind of political leverage, it can be used for economic leverage through the tourist trade and so on. But to say that the Holy Grail was in Templar hands is a step Too far, I think.

[Rob Attar]

So do we know where that idea comes from? Because this is one of the most pervasive aspects of the Templar myth is this connection to the Holy Grail. Do we know when that was invented?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Stories about the Holy Grail will certainly go back a long time. I mean, you know, very predate the Crusades, but in their crusading term, the very first decade of the 12th century, you find people talking about it, the Genoese themselves, when they believed that they'd been able to buy the Holy Grail. That took place in the first decade of the 12th century. So it goes right back to the very earliest days of the Crusader states. Similarly, you find the Templars growing in power and status and they start to own a lot of assets in the Middle East. So that's the second part of that. So firstly, you have the Holy Grail appears quite early on. Secondly, you have the Templars becoming asset rich. But then thirdly, you have the thing where the Templars, as they close down, are accused of secrecy, running a secret cult and so on. So you have this kind of magic triangle where people believe there is a Holy Grail and they believe it's out in the Middle East. They believe that the Templars are in a pole position to have acquired it. And you also believe that the Templars are this kind of secret cult and they're exactly the kind of characters who would want a Holy Grail because that's a way of channeling all their magic and arcane knowledge. And of course, some of that is true, but most of it clearly isn't. And the more specific you get, the less likely it is to be true.

[Rob Attar]

As we've been talking about, a lot of these conspiracy theories posit some kind of Templar survival going on for centuries. How did the conspiracy theorists think that the Templar line has continued? Because clearly all the original Templars would have died. Are people being still recruited into Templars? Are people, are their children becoming Templars? I mean, how are the Templars supposed to still be going?

[Ryan Reynolds]

The survival of the Templar Order and the existence of renegades is, as you say, is absolutely crucial to all the conspiracy theories. And the reality of it is incredibly tenuous. I mean, so the Templars are monks, so they don't have children? Well, not in theory they don't. Anyway, I'm sure a couple of the guys were a bit naughty and did have some. But there isn't a real line. James Merle was the last Templar master. If you are building conspiracy theories, you would say, oh, well, while he was on his deathbed, he whispered all the magic tricks to somebody else and that person became the new master and then so on and so forth. The 19th century was almost a little Templar industry which was around forging different documents and coins and articles, artifacts. And some of those forgeries, I mean they are forgeries because we do know that now some of those forgeries were the line of the new Templar masters and so on. But in reality, I don't know that there's any real evidence that the Templar Order did anything other than close down. You know, most of the guys in France were, or a lot of them were killed and survivors were treated very harshly. And throughout Europe the guys were gradually dispersed in a more or less congenial sort of way, either going into other monasteries or just being pensioned off and going back to their families. There isn't really a continuity. And I think the biggest problem from a Freemasonry point of view, and I'm not at all anti Freemasonry because I've got a lot of friends and family who are Freemasons and they do obviously a lot of good stuff. But when the Freemasonry was invented, it was in the 18th century. So you have a 500 year gap that they're looking to close. And the only way you can close that is by positing the existence of these long lost lines of masters and recruits. But as far as I'm aware, there's no evidence of that at all. And there are lots of so called Templar orders that exist today. I'm sure a lot of them are very fine, do a good job and all of that, but as far as I know they're not real Templars in any literal sense.

[Rob Attar]

Now in recent times, some elements of the far right have co opted aspects of Templar mythology, Templar imagery. Does that in any way connect to these conspiracy theories or is that really a separate phenomenon?

[Ryan Reynolds]

The appropriation of the Templar mythology by people with political agendas is actually quite ancient. And it's not necessarily even right wing. I mean, at the moment it does seem to be mainly right wing. But for instance, during the French Revolution, the left wing took some aspects of them as being kind of revolutionaries and people who were destroyed by the King of France. So part of it comes back to what we were saying earlier, really, and that is that the Templars are a blank piece of paper or vellum and you know, we can write whatever fantasy we want on them. So at the moment you have quite a racial based mythology being written about the Templars in some ways, which I was finding. Well, a. There's no, as far as I know, there's nothing evidentially based about it. The Templars were not in any way a racially motivated organization. They were a religious and political and economic organization. The big irony is that the Crusader states that the Templars were fighting to defend was one of the biggest multicultural melting pots of the medieval world. The majority of the population were Christian, but those Christians were mostly Arabs. You find even the kings and queens of Jerusalem were of many different ethnicities. They were part French, but they were also part Armenian, part Arab. I wrote a book a few years ago about what a Crusader army would look like. And the extraordinary thing is they would, you know, a lot of the guys would be in turbans. Probably the majority of the army would have been Arabs or Armenians in very many cases. And the Templars were in command of those armies and trying to protect those communities. So the idea that in some way the Templars are trying to protect whatever you mean by racial purity is again, it's an insult to them because they were protecting a very multi ethnic multicultural community. And there's nothing doctrinally to suggest that they would have wanted to do anything other than that they were also, again, ironically, the people who knew diplomacy on the ground in the Middle east best of all. So if a Muslim ruler wanted to negotiate a treaty, they would quite often go to the Templars because they were the more mature voice. You'd certainly rather deal with the Templar rather than a Crusader because the Templars knew how to sign an agreement, they knew what was realistic. Whereas the Crusaders had just come from Europe. They're kind of tourists, so they don't really understand how things work. So I think we read ourselves. If you espouse a certain right wing cause you can put that carapace on top of the Templars, but equally you can do that with anything. There's nothing particularly right wing about the Templars at all. And as I mentioned, in some ways they can appeal equally to the left wing with equally their evidence.

[Rob Attar]

Do you think that there's more that historians and others in the history world can do to try and combat some of these Templar fantasies? Or is this always going to be a losing battle?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think the idea of the Templar conspiracies as something you can head off at the pass is a lovely one, but probably unrealistic. As a historian, your temptation is to just go hell bent for the truth, you know, and be disparaging about things that aren't true. But actually having said that, on reflection, I don't think that's necessary. Well, A, is not realistic, but B, I'm not sure it's even right either. For instance, if you look at the. The film Kingdom of Heaven, a lot of. A lot of crusading historians have problems with it because there are things that are inaccurate about it, but I always feel they're kind of missing the point. It's a beautiful, beautiful film that introduces people to the period. And the key thing is people do not want to go to the cinema on a Saturday night to see a lecture. They're never going to do that. But what they are going to do is see a film that will perhaps introduce them to some elements of truth about it. So I think there's an extent to which historians shouldn't want to close down things too much, because people's ability to absorb information and interest in absorbing information varies so much from individual to individual. The other key thing is that the media are so different now because the Internet has changed everything. The idea of closing down a discussion is very unrealistic. What I think historians can do, I mean, pretty much as I tried to do with the book I previously wrote called the Crusader Arm, which is to try and look at the multicultural nature of these times, the fact that the Crusaders and their opponents were not at all what we think. There is always a temptation for us to backdate history. We always look at history from our current perspective, and it's actually much more honest to look at it from their perspective, and particularly with the Templars, to look back at the past and pretend that there's some big racial component to what they were doing. It's not just unsavory, it's actually just blatantly wrong. So I think historians need to carry on saying that so that people understand the truth. Having said that, I mean, I know from personal experience, you never, ever go into a pub and say you're writing a book on the Templars because people have so many views. And every pub boy in England, to my knowledge, has strong views about the Templars. And you just get caught and it's. It's that times a million on the Internet.

[Rob Attar]

That was Dr. Steve Tibble. His book Templars the Knights who Made Britain, was published in 202023 by Yale University Press. And that's all for this episode, but do join us next time when we'll be exploring the theory that the 1969 moon landing was faked. Thanks for listening. This podcast was produced by Jack B.