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- [00:00]
Sarah McLachlan
You're listening ad free on Amazon Music.
- [00:22]
Podcast Host
Welcome back to Hit Parade, a podcast of pop chart history from from Slate magazine about the hits from coast to coast. I'm Chris Melanfy, chart analyst, pop critic and writer of Slate's why Is this Song Number One series. On our last episode we walked through the pre history of Lilith Fair, the late 90s all women festival concert series launched by Sarah McLachlan. From the 70s era of Joni Mitchell through the 80s rise of Suzanne Vega and Tracy Chapman to the early 90s emergence of a roster of dominant women performers like Liz Phair and Sheryl Crow, women were taking up more space on the charts and the radio dial. Now they were ready to command the stage. And after a successful 1996 beta test of the Lilith concept, named after an assertive woman icon from ancient mythology, by 97, McLachlan and her fellow performers were poised to widen the circle.
- [01:33]
Chris Melanfi
Like the mythic figure, the whole premise of Lilith was a challenge, a rebuke. Conventional industry wisdom held that multi female concerts or airplay of back to back women artists on the radio was commercial poison. Many of the women who would go on to play Lila Fare told stories of promoters, radio programmers and managers who advised against pairing with other women. I remember talking to my agent about.
- [02:06]
Narrator/Commentator
Touring with another female, sheryl Crow told.
- [02:09]
Chris Melanfi
Vanity Fair, and the response was, you don't want to do that because it.
- [02:14]
Sarah McLachlan
Won'T sell tickets if it makes you happy.
- [02:26]
Chris Melanfi
Sarah McLachlan expressed similar frustration about radio limitations even after a first half of the 90s where women had done well on the modern rock charts. Quote, I'd hear all these radio stations playing Pearl Jam and Soundgarden back to back.
- [02:45]
Sarah McLachlan
Memories back.
- [02:48]
Chris Melanfi
Anybody talking about how that can't happen.
- [02:52]
Sarah McLachlan
Black hole, sun, won't you come.
- [02:56]
Chris Melanfi
It just seemed a bit ridiculous to me. The small series of gigs Sarah McLachlan played in 1996 with Paula Cole, Suzanne.
- [03:08]
Narrator/Commentator
Vega and Lisa Loeb gave the lie.
- [03:11]
Chris Melanfi
To this industry premise. Frankly, none of the four artists was at her absolute commercial zenith at at this time and yet banded together for this Lilith Fair beta test, they played enormous venues to near sellout crowds. The mini tour also helped get McLachlan past her writer's block. By the following summer, anticipation for MacLachlan's next album had built tremendously. More than three years after the release of the slow growing hit Fumbling towards ecstasy, her 1997 follow up, surfacing, would go on to be an octuple platinum blockbuster, and its first single dropped the same week MacLachlan launched the Tour for which she is now most famous.
- [04:12]
Sarah McLachlan
Building a Mystery.
- [04:16]
Narrator/Commentator
Building a Mystery debuted on.
- [04:18]
Chris Melanfi
The Modern Rock chart the week ending July 5, 1997. That same day, the first official Lilith Fair played the Gorge Amphitheater in Washington State. The Cynic might say McLachlan had launched the tour to promote herself, and to be sure, Lilith didn't hurt her career trajectory. But in the wake of McLachlan's long rise to fame, Building a Mystery built organically enough that it seemed to rise in parallel with the tour, not because of it. The song reached the top 10 of the on Modern Rock tracks in mid August, when Lilith was more than 30 dates in and it wouldn't make its Hot 100 debut until after the first run of the tour was over. But the real sign of McLachlan's newfound chart muscle came in August when the Surfacing album surfaced on the Billboard 200, all the way up at number two. If it hadn't been for the then hot soundtrack to Will Smith's movie Men in Black, Surfacing would have debuted at number one. As it was, McLachlan had the top selling non soundtrack single artist album in America.
- [06:00]
Narrator/Commentator
Thank you.
- [06:02]
Chris Melanfi
When Surfacing made its chart debut, Lilith was playing dates across the south and Midwest and practically every date was a sellout. McLachlan had assembled a strong lineup of artists for the festival, including all three acts who had joined her for the 1996 test Suzanne Vega, Paula Cole, who by the way, in the interim had issued her sophomore album this Fire and began scoring massive pop hits, I don't.
- [06:33]
Sarah McLachlan
Wanna wait for our lives to be over, I want to know right now.
- [06:43]
Chris Melanfi
And Lisa Loeb, who was playing songs from her next album that would generate her biggest hits since the 1994 breakthrough. Other artists on the bill included Meredith Brooks, who had the biggest current hit on the charts that July, and the most ostentatiously woman centric, the number two.
- [07:11]
Sarah McLachlan
Hot 100 smash bitches and I'm your.
- [07:25]
Chris Melanfi
Help, I'm your dream and Shawn Colvin, who'd sung with Suzanne Vega back in the 80s and scored her first modern rock hits in the early 90s. That summer Colvin was enjoying her biggest ever pop hit with Sonny Came home, a top 10 hit that by July was the most played song at top 40 radio.
- [07:49]
Sarah McLachlan
Sonny came home with permission, she says. Days go by I.
- [07:58]
Podcast Host
But wait, the.
- [07:59]
Chris Melanfi
Lilith pitch woman might say, there's more. Appearing at various dates were then newcomer Fiona Apple. Folk scene veterans Tracy Chapman, I don't.
- [08:17]
Sarah McLachlan
Want no one to Squeeze Me, they Might Take Away My Life.
- [08:24]
Chris Melanfi
And Road warriors, the Indigo Girls, Recent hitmaker Joan Osborne. And the now multi platinum solo star Natalie Merchant. In its first year, Lilith also did an admirable job, including country artists whose Americana leanings made them a comfortable fit for the lineup. The main stage featured performances by country legend Emmylou Harris. And 90s country hitmaker and adult alternative crossover artist Mary Chapin Carpenter.
- [09:25]
Sarah McLachlan
Is it too much to ask? I want a comfortable bed that won't hurt my back.
- [09:33]
Chris Melanfi
Over on Lilith's second stage, a rotating cast of rising stars took the mic in various cities including Victoria Williams, Cassandra Wilson, Abra Moore and Dar Williams.
- [09:47]
Sarah McLachlan
But way back where I come from we never mean to bother. We don't like to make our passions.
- [09:55]
Narrator/Commentator
Other people's concern as inclusive as the festival organizers tried to be, however, Lilith fell down on diversity in its first year, branded in the media as proffering a certain variety of white, cisgendered folky femme rock. Some of this exclusivity was self selection, as several acts declined invitations to Lilith. Some even badmouthed it in the press, including Tori Amos, who mounted her own double headlining tour with Alanis Morri and carped this tour isn't just about eating some chicken and hearing a few of your favorite female singers, unquote.
- [10:57]
Chris Melanfi
Rising indie punk band Slater Kinney also.
- [11:00]
Narrator/Commentator
Gave Lilith a wide berth.
- [11:03]
Chris Melanfi
Singer guitarist Carrie Brownstein told the Dallas Observer, I think it's important that not.
- [11:09]
Narrator/Commentator
Everyone get scooped up into the Lilith.
- [11:12]
Chris Melanfi
Fair vision because it keeps women's music kind of contained into this one box.
- [11:18]
Narrator/Commentator
And that makes it easy for women's music to stay marginal.
- [11:31]
Chris Melanfi
Another act many attendees were surprised not to see on the bill was uber independent folk rocker Ani DiFranco, whom the organizers reportedly pursued assiduously, but to no avail.
- [11:54]
Narrator/Commentator
The other unmistakable issue with Lilith in.
- [11:57]
Podcast Host
Its early days was its dearth of.
- [12:00]
Narrator/Commentator
Women of color, though the festival did include Tracy Chapman on the main stage and on its second stage did help break certain black artists, including the then unsigned India Ari.
- [12:16]
Sarah McLachlan
But I've drawn a conclusion. It's all an illusion.
- [12:22]
Narrator/Commentator
On the whole, Lilith was light on R B and nearly devoid of hip hop. At first this was a glaring omission given how strong female hip hop had been throughout the 90s. Queen Latifah Salt and Pepper debrat, Lisa Left Eye Lopez There was a wealth of platinum level women rappers in the 90s. Lilith organizers approached several but struggled in year one to attract their interest among this crop of first wave female rappers. Latifah would eventually sign on, becoming a mainstage act in year two of Lilith Fair. But she wasn't alone. At least one artist was as new to performing as Lilith was as a festival, and they would help each other graduate to the next level.
- [13:31]
Sarah McLachlan
Me, I'm super fly super duper fly super duper.
- [13:36]
Narrator/Commentator
Ms. Nancy Elliot hadn't met Sarah McLachlan in the summer of 1997, but on the Billboard charts, they were, you might say, neighbors. The same week in August of 97 that MacLachlan's CD Surfacing debuted at number two on the album chart, debuting one slot below her at number three was Elliott's debut disc, supadupafly. No new rapper in the summer of 97. Hell, no new artist period was as buzzed about as Missy. By 1998, other than a handful of TV appearances, Missy Elliott had scarcely played live and never toured before. Lilith Fair 98 would, in essence, be her formal concert debut. Missy wowed the Lilith crowd with her boldly freaky style, performing in the inflatable outfits she brought along from her music videos, as well as a troupe of backup dancers. It was a mutually beneficial relationship. Lilith gave Missy a live platform and a new audience, and Missy gave Lilith a new look, sound and style. She broadened the very idea of what the festival could be. We'll be back momentarily. Other artists who helped diversify Lilith in year two were R& B newcomer Erykah Badu, who was enjoying her first wave of critical acclaim, And Michelle Ndegeocello, the impossible to define bassist, singer strike, songwriter, rapper and activist Indege Ocello later told Vanity Fair that she knew she had been invited to diversify the Lilith lineup. But she added, quote, to this day, I've never been on a tour where I felt more welcome. Maybe it was too welcoming. Many of the artists who performed the first year of Lilith wanted to come back for year two. The result was an ever expanding lineup of the novel and the familiar, including 1998 co headliner Natalie Merchant. And new to Lilith, veterans like Bonnie Raitt. And Sinead o'. Connor. Other women who, like Missy Elliott, had little live experience found love Lilith a welcoming venue. Liz Fair, despite years as the decade's most acclaimed indie rock star, suffered from stage fright and had performed relatively little in front of concert crowds. At Lilith 98. Fair accepted a main stage slot and she had such a good experience that she would return for Lilith 99.
- [17:32]
Sarah McLachlan
And then he said, do you want to be a polyester bride? Do you want to hang your head and die?
- [17:43]
Narrator/Commentator
The Lilith lineup became so top heavy, some major artists wound up on the second stage when the main stage lineup couldn't accommodate them. In 1998, the year's most critically acclaimed album winner of that year's Paz and Jop poll was Lucinda Williams, Car Wheels on a Gravel Road. And even Williams that year accepted a second stage slot at Lillo.
- [18:11]
Sarah McLachlan
Car Wheels on a Gravel Road, Car Wheel.
- [18:21]
Narrator/Commentator
It was a good problem to have, but the organizers, including Sarah McLachlan, who conceived of, approved and often personally invited, the performers were overwhelmed by the demands of the machine they built. The second year nearly killed us, McLaughlin told Vanity Fair. Success allowed us some latitude with different artists, and managers looked at the festival in a different light. But the second year there were like 88 artists. It was insane. Perhaps it was inevitable then that Lilith Fair would last only one more summer in its original incarnation. For the 1999 installment, McLachlan and her team went out with a bang, putting together the most diverse lineup to date, from the chart topping country trio then known as the Dixie Chicks. To rb newcomer maya, To indie pop and hip hop group Luscious Jackson.
- [19:43]
Sarah McLachlan
Baby I Got kidnaps Baby I Got heart.
- [19:48]
Narrator/Commentator
The Lilith lineup was now so genre diverse they even found room for some pure pop. In the summer of 99, power vocalist and rising teen pop star Christina Aguilera was still so new she agreed to play Lilith's side stage on just two dates in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
- [20:12]
Sarah McLachlan
If you wanna be with me.
- [20:17]
Narrator/Commentator
Aguilera at least had released an album. The 99 side stage also played host to new artists who at the time had few or no recordings. These included Canadian World beat pop artist Nelly Furtado, who was still a year away from releasing her debut album.
- [20:42]
Sarah McLachlan
I Don't Know where my soul is, I.
- [20:45]
Narrator/Commentator
Don'T Know where my home is and twin sister duo Tegan and Sarah, who had just begun recording and had yet to sign with a label. In short, Lilith was now helping to break Future Star. The question by the end of the 90s was when and where these stars, both Future and Current, were going to be played on the radio. Because the bro ification of rock radio had continued, actually accelerated during the three years Lilith was selling out across the land.
- [21:32]
Sarah McLachlan
You can take that cookie and stick it up your beer.
- [21:36]
Narrator/Commentator
If you flipped on an alt rock station in the summer of 99, you were much more likely to hear aggro rap rockers Limp Bizkit, such as their number three modern rock hit Nookie, than anything by a Lilith performer. Limp Korn, Godsmack, Kid Rock These were the leading edge of so called alternative music in 1999, as well as the messianic pumped up anthem rock of creed with their 1999 Modern Rock chart topper Higher.
- [22:14]
Sarah McLachlan
Can you take me Higher?
- [22:20]
Narrator/Commentator
Even the relatively less aggressive wave of alt rock bands like Lit, Sugar Ray and Third Eye Blind would fill their songs with the kinds of party bro lyrics that were many steps removed from Nirvana and Pearl Jam. It wasn't as if the biggest thing female artists from the mid-90s were getting no airplay at all. Lilith mainstage star Sheryl Crow continued to score sizable airplay hits later in the decade, such as her 1998 radio single My Favorite Mistake, a number nine pop airplane hit. But the song did far better at pop stations than it did on the modern rock chart, where Crow's hit peaked at number 26. And what about Lilith's founder and headliner.
- [23:35]
Sarah McLachlan
Adi do believe I failed you Adi.
- [23:42]
Narrator/Commentator
Sarah McLachlach scored her biggest Hot 100 hits in 1998 and 99, a reflection of how far her star had risen after Lilith. Both hits were gentle ballads, Adia, a number three hit in August of 98, And the even more delicate angel, a number four hit in March of 99. But neither one of these blockbuster singles received any airplay at all on alt rock stations after 19. Sarah MacLachlan never returned to the modern rock chart. Lilith baer made Sarah MacLachlan a superstar, but primarily a pop star. And what about the pop scene at the turn of the millennium? Would Lilith ATZ find a hospitable home there? To an extent, yes. But the stakes for pop had gotten so much higher during the Lilith years. As I noted in our Britney Spears episode of Hit Parade, millennial megapop was setting new sales and chart benchmarks in 1999 and 2000. The peak of the music business before downloading, decimated the industry. The success seen by the acts commanding MTV's Total Request Live or TRL, were selling at levels none of the Lilith headliners had ever seen except for the diamond certified Chicks. And of course they had a then enormous country audience.
- [25:57]
Sarah McLachlan
Into the wild blue.
- [26:00]
Narrator/Commentator
The women of Lilith, particularly the folk leaning or traditional RB artists, had done better than any women of their ilk had done before. Most of the Lilith performers, the ones who came on stage at the finale of every show to sing Joni Mitchell's classic Big Yellow Taxi, possessed gold or platinum albums.
- [26:26]
Sarah McLachlan
Just to see us. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got to lift on?
- [26:38]
Narrator/Commentator
But they didn't have 10 times platinum albums. When the dust settled and the third edition of Lilith was over in 1999, its performers were, you might say, women without a country. Too light for rock radio, too mellow for TRL. Would Lilith Fair, if it had continued into the 2000s, adapted to include more.
- [27:06]
Chris Melanfi
Pure pop stars like Britney Spears?
- [27:09]
Narrator/Commentator
After all, the festival had featured Christina Aguilera. It's hard to speculate. Fans of the Lilith book brand might well have leveled sellout charges. In any case, Sarah MacLachlan openly admitted that she was both gratified by Lilith and exhausted, and it is easy to sympathize with her for ending the festival on a high note in 1999. Interestingly, a footnote to Lilith history was that 1999 was not actually the final Lilith Fair. More than a decade later, in 2010, McLaughlin was persuaded to revive the festival, but it was mostly, by Sarah's and.
- [28:12]
Podcast Host
The organizer's admission, a struggle.
- [28:23]
Narrator/Commentator
While the 2010 Lilith Fair featured around 80 acts on three stages and did play nearly two dozen dates, more than 10 dates had to be cancelled or rebooked due to poor ticket sales. The lineup featured many return performers from the late 90s, including Sheryl Crow, Indigo Girls, Erykah Badu, Emmylou Harris and Suzanne Vega, alongside newer acts like Metric, Ingrid Michelson and Miranda Lambert. But 2010 was not a great year to mount a festival tour, as the American economy and the concert industry were still coming out of the Great Recession. In Vanity Fair, critic Ann Powers noted noted that ageism may have played a role. Sarah was in her 40s when she revived it, so picture the blowback women at midlife always get. But MacLachlan herself noted that the age of the concertgoers might have also been a factor. Quote Our intentions in hindsight weren't really pure, she admitted to Rolling Stone. I had a new record out and it had worked the last time.
- [29:56]
Chris Melanfi
We didn't look at how all those.
- [29:58]
Narrator/Commentator
Women who came to the shows in the 90s now have children and jobs and mortgages. This poorly received 2010 Lilith Revival needs to be considered when weighing the question that many concertgoers have been asking for for the last two decades. Could Lilith Fair be brought back? Is the idea of an all woman tour outmoded? If not, what would it take? We'll be right back. As virtually Everybody agrees, Sarah McLachlan included, if women performers wanted to band together in this way again, the mantle of a new Lilith would have to be taken up by an entirely new generation. And here's the thing. There is no shortage of candidates, especially when you consider how music made by women has evolved since the turn of the millennium. In 2013, New Zealand newcomer Ella Yelich O', Connor, better known as Lorde, achieved something major on Billboard's Modern Rock chart, now known as Alternative Songs. Remember I mentioned Tracy Bonham's Mother Mother, the 1996 number one hit that was the last modern rock chart topper by a few female soloist for 17 years. By the way, that hit scored Tracy Bonham a slot on the Lilith lineup in both 1997 and 98. Anyway, Lord was the one who ended that modern alternative drought when in the late summer of 2013, her precocious single Royals topped alternative songs. A month later it even topped the Hot 100. Like Kate Bush, Tori Amos and Fiona Apple before her, Lord broke through as a bespoke artist with a unique voice. You can easily picture a modern Lilith Faire that would feature an artist of her stature. But why limit ourselves to one kind of artist? Could a new Lilith be even bigger? Because some of our most successful music stars, particularly on the road, are independent minded women. Taylor Swift has been one of the top concert draws of the last decade and a half, routinely selling out arenas worldwide and topping the US charts with her last six albums. She is about as big as any artist gets. Well, unless you count the clue.
- [33:29]
Podcast Host
Beyonce.
- [33:29]
Narrator/Commentator
Is more than a musician. She is one of our totemic cultural figures, big enough to headline Coachella, let alone Barack Obama's inauguration. So okay, maybe these ladies would be too big for a modern day Lilith. If Taylor and Queen Bee are each as massive as Alanis Morissette was in the 90s, maybe bigger. Like Alanis back then, they wouldn't need to join a touring festival, but maybe a new Lilith wouldn't need that level of firepower. Maybe, as with Sarah McLachlan in 1996, a rising star but not yet a superstar, the mantle could be taken up by female artists that are on the rise. In a 2015 Vulture article titled Chaim Wants to Bring Back Lilithfan, the trio of sisters who call themselves Chaim spitballed a pretty credible contest contemporary Lilith lineup. Their dream tour would include not only Taylor Swift, with whom Heim are friends, and for whom they were then serving as an opening act, and Lord, but also modern indie rock acts Savages, Churches, Jenny Lewis and the anthemic art rock band Florence and the Machine led by vocalist Florence Welch. Nothing came of Heim's daydream, but a few years later, Brandi Carlisle, the Grammy winning alternative country and Americana artist actually did mount a pair of annual concerts called the Girls Just Wanna Weekend. Carlisle's was not a touring festival. The multi day concerts happened over a pair of weekends in 2018 and 2019. But in a bit of poetic convergence, several of Carlisle's guests included former Lilith performers like Sheryl Crow, the Indigo Girls and Sean Colvin. Carlisle herself, as a teenager in the late 90s, had attended the original Lilith Fair as a spectator and she called it one of the most formative musical experiences of her life.
- [36:23]
Sarah McLachlan
Carl While longer.
- [36:32]
Narrator/Commentator
Of course, all of these would be Lilith lineups were dreamed up in the 2000 and tens. Going into the 2000s, a new wave of Gen Z women were already commanding the road and selling out arenas, most notably Billie Eilish. A lilith for the 20s would have to include her as well as trans and gender non conforming performers such as Kim Petras. And there's one last legacy of which Lilith fans should take note. Remember the complaint that led to Lilith not only that women rarely trust toured together, but that radio programmers would avoid playing women artists consecutively. Well, women artists are all over the radio again, teaming up with each other and literally topping the charts back to Back. In the spring 2020, Billboard noted a remarkable feat at the top of the Hot 100 in three out of four weeks, the number one song was a duet by a pair of women soloists. This started in early May with a team up by rapper singers Doja Cat and Nicki Minaj on the hit say so. Two weeks after that the chart was topped by Megan Thee Stallion's Savage remix featuring Beyonce. And one week after that, Lady Gaga and Ariana Grande took the top spot with Rain on Me. When the pairing of Gaga and Ariana succeeded Megan and Beyonce, it was the first time in chart history a song by multiple solo women supplanted another woman duet atop the hot one. As for the woman who, however inadvertently.
- [39:28]
Podcast Host
Began envisioning this kind of chart sisterhood back in the 1990s, Sarah McLaughlin still tours to this day. Like so many musicians in 2020, McLaughlin was forced off the road by the COVID 19 pandemic. But just days before the shutdown, she was on her tour bus recording an acoustic song to benefit the Children's Cancer Association. There is something nostalgic about hearing this performance. Now. Much of that nostalgia is for the time just before the pandemic changed touring as we know it. But it's also nostalgia for the Lilith era that Sarah McLachlan inaugurated more than a quarter century ago, when all she was trying to do do was shake the rust off while trying to write an album. During the pandemic, quiet solo performances like this one became the new normal in our Corona lockdown, but Sarah never lost her love for harmonizing with her sisters in song. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Hit Parade. Our show was written, edited and narrated by Chris Melanfi. That's me. The producer for this show was Benjamin Frisch, with additional 2024 production from Kevin Bendis, and we had help from Joel Meyer. Derek John is Executive Producer of Narrative Podcasts and Alicia Montgomery is VP of Audio for Slate Podcasts. Check out their roster of shows@slate.com podcasts. You can subscribe to Hit Parade wherever you get your podcasts, in addition to finding it in the Slate Culture feed. If you're subscribing on Apple Podcasts, please rate and review us while you're there. It helps other listeners find the show. Thanks for listening and I look forward to leading the Hit Parade back your way. Until then, keep on marching on the one. I'm Chris Melanvy.
- [42:18]
Sarah McLachlan
Thanks for listening.