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- [00:00]
A
You're listening ad free on Amazon Music. Hey, everybody, this is Chris Melanfy, host of Hit Parade, Slate's podcast of pop chart history. Welcome to the Bridge.
- [00:20]
B
All the Travel water.
- [00:24]
A
That's Aretha Franklin's cover of Paul Simon's composition Bridge Over Troubled water, a number one RB, number six pop in the spring of 1971. We're recording this episode just a day after we learned of the passing of the Queen of Soul. Joining me at the mic for this episode of Hit Parade, The Bridge is T.J. raphael, senior producer for Slate podcasts. Hi, T.J. hey, Chris. How are you?
- [00:49]
B
I'm good. I can't believe the news about Aretha Franklin, though. I'm heartbroken.
- [00:54]
A
Aren't we all? With Aretha, we had a preview of this news for several days that, you know, she was ailing and she was not long for this world. And so I feel like, unlike some of the other titans of American music we've lost in the last decade, this may have come as less of a shock when the news finally came in. But it still hurts.
- [01:13]
B
Oh, absolutely. I mean, for myself, I didn't grow up with Aretha as somebody that was born in the late 80s, but I mean, I guess in a way, I kind of did grow up with her. My parents were huge fans of Aretha Franklin, and I grew up in the car, you know, listening to Chain of Fools with my dad. You know, my mom is a huge feminist, so we would blast respect in the living room and dance together. So Aretha was always around in my household. I have a different relationship with her, but, yeah, my parents were children of the 70s. They loved Studio 54. They lived in New York, so they were big disco fans even after they had kids. And not just disco, obviously, soul and all of that. So it is. It's sad to see her go. You know, she was a legend is a legend.
- [02:01]
A
Yeah. I mean, her career was so long lasting and covered so many decades that I feel like virtually everyone who's been alive for the last 50 years has been touched in some way by Aretha Franklin, whether it's those who remember her 60s hits. That doesn't even include me. I was born in the early 70s. Or people who remember her at the inaugural of President Barack Obama or the Kennedy Center Honors when just a. About three, four years ago, when she honored Carole King by doing that amazing performance of you Make Me Feel like a Natural Woman. I mean, where do you begin to talk about somebody who's that big a legend, you know, And Franklin's passing Also generated a ton of great writing about her influence and her achievements here at Slate. Several of my thoughts fellow writers turned in some fantastic work, including Jack Hamilton and Carl Wilson and Dan Kois. I recommend that everybody catch up with all of this writing. One of my very favorite articles about Aretha was by my friend and colleague Emily Lordy, who wrote a tribute to Aretha for the New Yorker. And Emily wrote about how Aretha was a bridge builder. And frankly, I picked Bridge Over Troubled Water because it felt to me like an appropriate way to talk about Aretha on the Bridge, our interstitial Hit Parade episode.
- [03:22]
B
Well, I mean, it's so hard to pick, but if you had a favorite Aretha song or can you give me your top three?
- [03:27]
A
That's a. That's a fair question. Top three is easier. I have always loved I say a Little Prayer, That one. Just her performance and the. The little vocal fireworks. It's a song that was also recorded by others, including Dionne Warwick, but. But Aretha's became the iconic version for a reason. It's a bit of a cliche, but I still love Respect when she does that breakdown in the middle. You know, This is a story that probably everybody has heard multiple times this week as we've mourned Aretha. But, you know, it was an Otis Redding song that very few people think of as an Otis Redding song anymore, because in the words of Otis himself, that girl stole my song. And he meant it admiringly. He did not. He was not angry about it. And if I were to pick a third, gosh, there's so many, I guess from the 80s, weirdly, only because this was the subject of a Hit Parade episode. I really kind of love her duet with George Michael. I knew you were waiting for me. That one was special to me, too. And that's a record that was a hit when I was a teenager. So I just have a soft spot for that.
- [04:48]
B
Thinking about legends, obviously, with Aretha's passing, you know, the same day, we also had a different legend that came up around the country. And in the Hit Parade feed, it was Madonna. She turned 60. Can you believe it?
- [05:01]
A
Yes. The day that the Queen of Soul died, the Queen of pop turned 60, which. What a milestone. And as many of you probably noticed in your Hit Parade feed, we did an encore presentation on August 16th, Madonna's 60th birthday of our March episode of Hit Parade, about Ray of Light called the Veronica Electronica Edition. And we thought it might be fun for folks to revisit that episode and think about the wide Ranging career, the long career of Madonna, the Queen of Pop.
- [05:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, we've had a very busy summer in the Hit Parade feed. We've really done a lot and I hope you guys have been enjoying it. I know I have. As a listener. We actually got a piece of listener mail from the Slate Plus Facebook group. It's a private group for only Slate plus members. We hopped in there yesterday when we heard about the passing of Aretha Franklin and wanted to hear from you guys. So I guess, Chris, let's start there with our question about Aretha Franklin and we will play the clip. I got a voice memo from him.
- [06:00]
C
Hi Chris, this is Anthea Zogongas from Helsinki, Finland. I'm a huge fan of the podcast. Lately I've been listening to a lot of Aretha Franklin's music for obvious reasons and since millions of other music fans have done just the same, this will most likely affect the charts next week. What I would like to ask you is what do you think will happen to Aretha Franklin's music in the charts after her passing? What determines which compilations, which single albums of which classic songs people will now turn to in the kind of numbers that will be reflected in the charts? Looking forward to your answer and keep.
- [06:38]
A
Up the great work. Those are all excellent questions. Anti and might I say, I am delighted to hear that you're listening to the show from Helsinki. That is fantastic. I've heard from a number of European fans who enjoy the show and follow our American charts, which you clearly do avidly because you're asking very on point questions about how the charts work. Now this is one thing that has changed on the charts in the last decade and you can kind of date a lot of this from when Michael Jackson died in the summer of 2009. There was some controversy on the charts that summer at the time, for reasons that are a little technical and I won't go into the gory details. Billboard had a rule that albums that were old albums, catalogs, albums, as they called them, albums that had fallen off the chart and were past a certain amount of time old, weren't allowed to reappear on the main Billboard 200 album chart. And what happened when Michael Jackson died very suddenly again in the summer of 2009 is one of those albums. A compilation called Number Ones was selling better than any album in America, new or old. And because of the rules on the charts at the time, it was not allowed to appear on the album chart at all. So for about six weeks it was a strange situation where Billboard had a chart back then called the catalog album chart, where old albums could appear. And that album, the number one album on that chart, Michael Jackson's number ones, was outselling anything that was new current on the regular album chart. So later that year, after all of the furor died down about Michael Jackson's album and Michael Jackson's passing, Billboard finally changed the rule and basically made a new rule that any album could chart on the main flagship Billboard 200 album chart. And that has been true for the last decade. And so from Whitney Houston. Houston to Tom Petty to Prince, all of these albums are allowed on the main chart. And we've even had some number one albums. The most notable is Prince. Prince's earlier greatest hits album was the number one album in America for, I think, a week or two right after his passing in early 2016. One other notable album that benefited from a death. It's horrible to talk about benefiting from a death, but goodness knows this has been true is David Bowie's Black, His final studio album, which very coincidentally was released literally within about 24 to 48 hours of Bowie's passing. And so the collective mourning for Bowie led to Blackstar being, bizarrely enough, David Bowie's only number one album ever in America. So we have some examples. The Bowie album would have charted no matter what. The Prince album would not have charted if they hadn't changed the rules around the time of Michael Jackson. As for what will happen with Aretha, I am recording this episode in mid August, and frankly, by the time you all hear this episode, which will be at the end of August, we may already know the answer. So I don't want to make too many predictions because by the time you're listening to this, we'll know whether. Did Aretha score a number one album in August of 2018, by the way, if she did, it would be Aretha's first ever American number one album. She's had a couple of number twos, but she's never had a number one, which is kind of mind blowing. Again, it was like a David Bowie situation where Bowie somehow right up to his death and never had a number one album. So that would be remarkable in and of itself. I think it's possible the charts work differently now, even since some people, like Whitney Houston, died earlier in the decade, in that streaming now counts for the charts. And depending on which album people are streaming, that can aggregate and make an album bigger. And it will depend on what the Queen of Soul is competing with on the charts that week. Is Drake having a good week is, you know, some current artist having a big week. I don't know, at this vantage point. Again, I'm recording this literally a day after Aretha Franklin died. So thank you again, Antti, for that fantastic question all the way from Helsinki. And I believe we have some other questions, do we not?
- [10:44]
B
Yeah, we sure do. We have one more from Aaron and let's take a listen.
- [10:48]
D
Hey Chris, this is Aaron calling from Atlanta, Georgia and I just finished the featuring Don't Fail Me now edition and it was super fascinating, really informative, I really enjoyed it. You talked about a really good number of songs and collaborations in this episode. And while listening to it, another one popped into my head that might fit into the definition of this category. So where, if at all, does the Warrior by Scandal featuring Patti Smith fit into this? Does it fit into this category in this grade of musical history? I'd love to get your thoughts on that and maybe some stats or some charting info on that particular track. Thanks so much, Chris. We love the show, buddy.
- [11:28]
A
And thank you, Aaron, for that excellent question. I'm going to correct one small thing, which is this is one of the most common misnomers in in pop history, Patti Smith versus Patti Smyth. The person we're talking about right now, the lead singer of the 80s band scandal was Patti Smyth. S M Y T H. That is important because she is frequently confused with Patti Smith, the punk priestess from the 70s, and because the Night and songs like that, the album Horses two different people. However, you're asking an excellent question and if I were to sum it all up, this is a Wham featuring George Michael situation. You may remember in the featured artists episode I talked about some so called featured artists that predate the song that we hinged the whole episode around. The Glenn Medeiros featuring Bobby Brown song she Ain't Worth it that went to number one and used the word featuring but were not really about a featured artist. They were some sort of weird contractual arrangement whereby the record label was using the word featuring to highlight an artist who's already in the group but is not actually a special guest. That was the case in 1984 when the CBS label released Careless Whisper by Wham featuring George Michael. Now, throughout pop history, there have been other instances where an artist, a singer, usually who is still a part of the group, is pulled out of the group in the artist's name, mostly because they're preparing the artist for a solo career. That, for example, was the case in the 1960s when around 1967, I believe, the Supremes one of the greatest girl groups of all time suddenly became Diana Ross and the Supremes. At that time, Berry Gordy was preparing the market for the inevitable solo career of Diana Ross. In fact, one little remembered factory by all but pop historians is that the Supremes actually continued to exist in the 1970s after Diana Ross, and then they became the Supremes again. But for about three or four years of their existence, they were Diana Ross and the Supremes. That is the situation with Scandal featuring Patti Smythe, which was indeed the credit on their one and only top 10 hit in 1984, the song the Warrior. Reportedly, there was some strife within the band. There was some friction between Patti and the rest of the band, and everybody kind of knew that Patti Smythe was going to wind up being a solo artist. So probably to ameliorate the tension in the band, definitely to prepare the marketplace for the inevitable Patti Smythe solo career. That hit was called the Warrior Scandal, featuring Patti Smythe, and it reached number seven in the summer of 1984. And sure enough, by the late 1980s, Patti Smyth had a solo career, Scandal had broken up, and she wound up scoring her biggest hit, actually in the early 90s in 1992, a duet with Don Henley called Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough. And that was just credited to Patti Smythe with Don Henley.
- [14:20]
C
I.
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A
It was either a with or an and I'm not sure that was just a straight up duet. I think they had equal building on that one. But basically what you're looking at with that single by Scandal featuring Patti Smythe is the early stirrings of a future solo career. So thank you so much for that question, Aaron. I really enjoyed that one.
- [14:36]
B
Yeah, that was a great question from Erin. And I just want to remind everyone, if you have a question for Chris that you want answered, you can email us@hitparadelate.com or you can become a Slate+ member and join our Facebook group and ask him yourself directly. So thanks again, Aaron.
- [14:51]
A
So now that we're done with our questions, I believe it's time for us to do some trivia. Is that right, tj?
- [14:56]
B
That's right. And we have a very special guest here today.
- [14:58]
A
We are very fortunate to be joined in the studio today by a listener and contestant. Hello, Hilary.
- [15:03]
E
Hello.
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A
Welcome to our Slate Studios in Brooklyn. And I understand that you are a Slate plus member.
- [15:09]
E
I am indeed.
- [15:10]
A
That is very important because as we remind folks on these episodes of Hit Parade, the Bridge. While this episode is available to all Hit Parade subscribers, we open our trivia contestant hotline Only to Slate plus members. So if you would like to enter to play, please become a Slate plus member. And after you've signed up for your Slate plus membership, visit Slate Me hitparade to enter yourself as a contestant. How long have you been a Slate plus member, Hillary?
- [15:35]
E
I've been trying to think. I think probably at least two years, maybe three, I think right when they made it available because I wanted to get all the bonus segments.
- [15:43]
A
Fantastic. So we are recording this in Brooklyn, and I understand that speaking of Brooklyn, you were at our live show at the Bell House in Brooklyn back in January, is that right?
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E
I was there, definitely.
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A
I even understand that you were one of our audience members. I think it was eight audience members who answered a live trivia question. I did.
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E
I was forced into it by my friend and I got it wrong. So this is.
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A
That's heartbreaking.
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E
Yes. This is me coming back, trying to get some redemption show that I know music trivia.
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A
Well, hopefully redemption is at hand.
- [16:13]
E
All right, great. I hope so, too.
- [16:14]
A
This time it's going to be a little different. We let off this episode talking about the enormous musical event this week, the passing of the Queen of Soul, Aretha Franklin. And what I have done is I have kind of fused together the themes of the last Hit Parade episode and the next Hit Parade episode with some Aretha Franklin. So you'll see how this works when I run these questions by you. They are all in some way Aretha themed, but we're gonna still preview the next episode and talk about the previous episode anyway.
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E
Okay.
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A
All right. Okay. Are you ready for some trivia?
- [16:47]
E
I'm definitely ready.
- [16:48]
A
All right, here we go. Redemption is at hand. Question one. On Aretha Franklin's hit cover of Bridge Over Troubled Water, the keyboards are played by Billy Preston. But that wasn't the first time this famous sideman played keys on a chart topper. As I noted on our last Hit Parade episode on Featured artists, Preston's Hot 100 breakthrough came in 1969 when he played a keyboard solo and was given full artist credit on what Beatles number one hit? A Get Back B Let It Be C Come Together or Die Something.
- [17:28]
E
I believe it's a get back.
- [17:31]
A
The correct answer is indeed a get back. The single label Red the Beatles with Billy Preston. It was the only Beatles single to fully credit a supporting performer. Prior to that, the Beatles had only ever shared credit as backing band on Tony Sheridan's hit My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean. Fantastic. Hillary, you've already got one, right? That wasn't too bad, right?
- [18:07]
E
I just listened to that episode. So that's why it was in my.
- [18:10]
A
Mind, fresh on the brain. That always helps. Okay, great. This one's a bit more of a stretch. This was also about featured artists, but it's. It doesn't necessarily touch on anything specifically in the episode. You'll see why in a moment. Question two. Aretha Franklin scored only two number one hits on Billboard's Hot 100 in her career. One in the 60s, one in the 80s. We all know the first one, 1967's Respect. But 20 years later, her only other pop number one was a one off pairing of Franklin with another chart topping act. What was that 1987 number one hit on the Hot 100? A, Aretha Franklin and Eurythmics sisters are doing it for themselves. B Aretha Franklin and Elton John through the storm. C Aretha Franklin and George Michael. I knew you were waiting for me. Or D Aretha Franklin and Whitney Houston. It isn't. It wasn't. It ain't never gonna be.
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E
Ooh. Okay, that's tough because it's the only one I've ever heard of. I'm gonna go with A. With the Eurythmic.
- [19:18]
A
I'm sorry, the correct answer is C. The George Michael duet. It hit number five at R B and number one on the Hot 100. And not counting Careless Whisper, which was billed as a Wham. Single in America. It was George Michael's first solo number one hit and Aretha's first number one since Respect in 1967. All right, one down and one up. So let's see how you do on our third question. And this one is going to serve as a preview of our next Hit Parade episode. Are you ready?
- [19:51]
E
I'm ready.
- [19:51]
A
All right, question three. Paul Simon's Bridge Over Troubled Water wasn't the only song written by a rock artist that Aretha Franklin covered and turned into a hit. In the early 70s. She recorded celebrated soulful covers of songs by a string of white men from the world of rock. Which of these songwriters and songs did Franklin not cover? A, Paul McCartney of the Beatles, Eleanor Rigby. B Elton John Border song. C Robbie Robertson of the band the Wait. Or D, Barry Gibb of the Bee Gees. How can you mend a broken heart?
- [20:32]
E
Okay, I know she did. Eleanor Rigby. I know she did the Wait. So we have the Bee Gees or Elton John. I'm gonna go with. She didn't do the Bee Gees.
- [20:48]
A
That is correct. The correct answer is D. How can you mend a broken heart? This was the Bee gees first Hot 100 number one hit. And although it would famously be covered by the Reverend Al Green, the Queen of Soul never scored a hit with a Barry Gibbs song. The other three songs were all covered by Franklin and all were pop and R and B hits. 2 out of 3. Not bad at all.
- [21:19]
B
Hooray.
- [21:20]
A
That's excellent. I call that redemption right there.
- [21:21]
E
I think so. I'm gonna take that.
- [21:23]
A
You really should.
- [21:24]
E
I don't think anyone's ever gotten all three in the show.
- [21:27]
A
I think that's correct. Yeah. We're still waiting for somebody to run the table.
- [21:30]
E
The genius.
- [21:31]
A
Yeah. So after your triumphant 2 out of 3 result, it is your turn to turn the tables on me. And I understand you have a stumper of a trivia question for me.
- [21:40]
E
I do. Okay, so the question is, the Bee Gees appeared in which musical film that was released in 1978. Is it A, the Wiz, B, Grease, C, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, or D, all of the above.
- [22:01]
A
The correct answer is C, Sgt. Pepper's lonely hearts Club Band. It is probably the most infamous thing the Bee Gees did during their late 70s imperial period.
- [22:18]
E
It is a terrible movie.
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B
Yes.
- [22:21]
E
So we thought that you would be stumped because the Bee Gees, Barry Gibb, was responsible for writing the song Grease, but it was actually sung by Frankie Valli for the title track of but the Bee Gees, Barry Robin and Maurice Gibb starred in the 1978 film Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band alongside Peter Frampton, Earth, Wind and Fire, Alice Cooper, Steve Martin. Steve Martin.
- [22:46]
A
Steve Martin. Yes.
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E
And many other people. The film was created by the Bee Gees manager, Robert Stigwood, and was a box office flop.
- [22:55]
A
Massive box office floppy. Want to hear the famous line about sergeant Pepper, the soundtrack? So it was released in the summer of 78, and in the parlance of the time, they used to say in the music business that, like, if a record was, like, pre sold and everybody was gonna buy it in, like, the first week or two, they would say it shipped gold, it shipped platinum. Like it already. Like, it already shipped out to stores with like half a million or a million copies. The joke in 1978 was the Sgt. Pepper soundtrack shipped gold and returned platinum.
- [23:24]
B
Oh, no.
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E
Did the Beatles have anything to do with that or the Beatles letting them take the song?
- [23:30]
A
I mean, and in the late 70s, the Beatles were, you know, that's true. Fighting amongst themselves over credit for everything. They were in the midst of suing each other over everything. So, no, no, it was just A bad idea that Robert Stigwood had and that the Bee Gees went along with. And as you can probably tell, we're going to be talking about the Bee Gees in our September issue of Hit Parade. So I thank, I thank you for that trivia question, which does indeed help us preview the next episode of Hit Parade. Hillary, it was such a pleasure having you here. Thank you so much for coming to the studio. And I hope you feel, I don't know, walking with your head a little higher today.
- [24:03]
E
Definitely. Thank you so much for having me.
- [24:05]
B
Thanks again, Hilary. And gosh, Chris, I mean, I was hoping that she would stump you because, I mean, it's kind of mean. I like seeing you stump, though.
- [24:13]
A
I know everybody enjoys me getting stumped. It's actually been a few months since I've actually gotten the stumper right, but I think I got that one right because we are indeed preparing our September episode of Hit Parade, and it is going to be about the career of the Bee Gees and the career of the Gibb brothers as songwriters as well. And certainly 1978, as that question touched on, looms large in their legend. When folks think of the Bee Gees, this period of the late 70s is what they immediately think of. They think of the white suits, the COVID of Saturday Night Fever, the gold chains, the falsetto voices. The reason why, why the Bee Gees are so interesting, the reason why they warrant their own podcast episode is because their career dates all the way back to the 60s. It continues right through the 2000s. They are hit makers through the end of the 20th century and in a few countries even beyond that. And Barry Gibbs songwriting in particular has crossed the decades. It has even been sampled in hip hop, for example. So I want to talk about this really fascinating, unusual career that is much larger than their imperial moment at the end of the 70s, the disco moment that they're best known for. Those records are great, but I think if you don't know the full story of the Bee Gees and Barry Gibb and his brothers, you will be pleasantly surprised by the breadth and depth of that career.
- [25:39]
B
I mean, I know I can't wait to listen. So thank you so much for letting me hop on in the bridge again, Chris. I really appreciate it.
- [25:45]
A
Thank you for joining me. This was a lot of fun. Keep an eye out for our full length episode coming in September.
- [25:51]
B
Thanks so much, everyone. I'm TJ Raphael.
- [25:53]
A
And I'm Chris Melanfi. Keep on Marching on the one.