The Bridge: R. Kelly and Music's #MeToo Reckoning

Summary

Podcast Summary

Hit Parade | Music History and Music Trivia

Episode: The Bridge: R. Kelly and Music's #MeToo Reckoning

Host: Chris Molanphy (with TJ Raphael)
Date: February 15, 2019

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Episode Overview

This mini-episode, “The Bridge: R. Kelly and Music's #MeToo Reckoning,” serves as a follow-up to the preceding full episode focused on Lady Gaga and as a conversational interlude before the next major topic. Host Chris Molanphy is joined by producer TJ Raphael for a candid discussion on the intersection of pop music, artist accountability, and the slow arrival of the #MeToo movement in the music industry, particularly in light of ongoing allegations against R. Kelly. The episode also explores the broader cultural reckoning with musicians accused of misconduct and includes a trivia segment for subscribers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lady Gaga’s Controversy Over R. Kelly Collaboration

• Discussion launches from Lady Gaga’s past collaboration with R. Kelly on “Do What U Want” (2013) and her initial reluctance to condemn him amidst longstanding allegations.
• TJ Raphael expresses disbelief at Gaga’s earlier defense of R. Kelly, given her advocacy for sexual assault survivors, notably with “Til It Happens to You” (2015) for the documentary The Hunting Ground (02:04).
• Chris explains why they excluded “Do What U Want” from the Gaga episode—standing in solidarity with the #MuteRKelly movement and following Gaga's own recent apologies and removal of the song from streaming services (03:20).

“It wasn’t a tough call. Given the #MuteRKelly movement, I felt it was important to stand with those who are not playing R. Kelly’s music at this time... Gaga herself... walked back and apologized for her comments and... removed ‘Do What U Want’ from ARTPOP on Spotify and Apple Music.”
— Chris Molanphy (03:20)

Why Has the Music Industry Lagged in its #MeToo Reckoning?

• Chris questions why music has been so slow to enact change compared to movies, publishing, and TV (03:20–05:11).
  • Speculates that music’s culture of “freedom of speech” and the long-standing mythos of “the underage girl” in rock ’n’ roll make it resistant to addressing abuse.
  • Points to historical examples (e.g., Chuck Berry’s “Sweet Little Sixteen,” the Beatles’ “I Saw Her Standing There”) as interwoven with problematic tropes (04:58–05:11).

The Power (and Limitations) of Fan Activism

• TJ highlights the significance of grassroots pressure and the #MuteRKelly campaign in demanding accountability from the music industry (06:09–07:21).
• Chris elaborates on how music’s omnipresence in public spaces complicates disengagement, making collective action both vital and challenging (07:21).

“It is interesting that it took pressure from... rank and file fans to finally bring this about... Even before the documentary, the #MuteRKelly movement was starting to build momentum.”
— Chris Molanphy (07:21)

R. Kelly, Michael Jackson, and Pop Music's Uneasy Reckoning

• The conversation shifts to how R. Kelly’s hits, and his work for others like Michael Jackson, shaped public willingness to “forgive” or ignore allegations (09:35).
• Recent documentaries (Surviving R. Kelly, new Michael Jackson allegations) suggest 2019 may bring broader reckonings for pop culture icons (07:21–09:35).
• TJ notes the deeply embedded nature of Michael Jackson’s music in American culture, illustrating the challenge in separating the art from the artist (08:48).

“Michael Jackson is a part of American culture. He is woven into the fabric of our society in all kinds of ways... And, yeah, I mean, he’s an American institution.”
— TJ Raphael (08:48)

Ethical Listening and Industry Responsibility

• Chris discusses the tension between loving memorable music and confronting the crimes or abuse of its creators, noting how a “jam” like “Ignition (Remix)” can allow cognitive dissonance (09:35–10:20).
• Listeners are encouraged to share how they feel about the MeToo movement’s impact on music and reflect on their personal stances (10:20–10:28).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The larger question is how R. Kelly has continued to be supported by this music industry, by other artists. This has been the $64 million question for MeToo: when is the music business... going to have a MeToo reckoning?”
  — Chris Molanphy (03:39)

• “It kind of surrounds you... you may be confronted by a song out, you know, when you go to the drugstore or in a passing car.”
  — Chris Molanphy (07:21)

• “We allow ourselves, when we have a catchy record like ‘Ignition (Remix)’ ...to blissfully forget what we’re talking about when we talk about these allegations.”
  — Chris Molanphy (09:35)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Lady Gaga’s Collaboration with R. Kelly & MeToo Paradox: 02:04–03:20
• R. Kelly’s Ongoing Support in Music & Industry Slowness: 03:20–06:09
• Fan Activism and #MuteRKelly: 06:09–07:21
• Music’s Ubiquity & Impact on Accountability: 07:21–08:48
• Michael Jackson Allegations & Cultural Ubiquity: 08:48–09:35
• Ethical Listening/Industry Responsibility: 09:35–10:20
• Listener Engagement Call: 10:20–10:28

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Trivia Segment Highlights (11:06–22:24)

• Trivia Contestant: Anne from Washington, D.C. (longtime Slate Plus member)
• Sample Questions Discussed:
  • Lady Gaga’s top-selling digital tracks (Answer: “Just Dance” and “Poker Face”; 13:51)
  • Credence Clearwater Revival (CCR) – record for most #2 hits without a #1 on the Billboard Hot 100, and which songs blocked them (14:56–16:23)
• Anne’s Trivia for Chris: Which band, besides CCR, hails from El Cerrito, CA? (Answer: Metallica, not Van Halen—17:38–18:59)
• Fun reveal: TJ’s go-to karaoke song is “Proud Mary” by CCR (21:44–21:57)

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Closing Thoughts

The episode thoughtfully confronts how the music industry continues to lag in holding stars accountable for sexual abuses, weaving in historical context and the unique challenges music poses for activism and ethical listening. The hosts encourage open discourse among listeners, highlight the role of fan-driven activism, and balance heaviness with signature trivia and listener interaction. The conversation is honest, nuanced, and reflective of the ongoing—and overdue—reckoning in pop music.

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For full context, tune in to [Hit Parade: The Bridge – R. Kelly and Music's #MeToo Reckoning] or connect with Chris and TJ on social media to share your views on where the music industry's reckoning should go next.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening ad free on Amazon Music.

[B]

I'm alone in my house.

[C]

I'm out on the town I'm at the bottom of the bottle I've been knocking them down.

[B]

Hey, everybody. This is Chris Melanfy, host of Hit Parade, Slate's podcast of pop chart history. Welco the bridge. That is. Look what I found from the soundtrack to the movie A Star Is Born, performed by Lady Gaga in the part of Ally. A recent Vulture magazine feature calls this song a stylistic bridge between Ally's bluesier songs with Jackson, Maine and her slick pop productions. It's one final callback to our last episode about the career of Lady Gaga and the way that career is reflected in A Star Is Born.

[C]

But look what I found, somebody.

[B]

And as always, these mini episodes bridge our flow, monthly episodes and give us a chance to catch up with our listeners and enjoy some trivia. This month, I am delighted, as always, to be joined by the colleague who helps me take it to the Bridge Slate podcast senior producer TJ Raphael. Hey, tj.

[C]

Hey, Chris.

[B]

Welcome back. Great to have you.

[C]

As always, thank you so much for having me on. I feel like we have so much to talk about today, especially me being a Gaga super fan.

[B]

I know. I don't know that you've ever been more excited about a Hit Parade episode than you were about the Gaga episode. Am I wrong? Yeah.

[C]

I mean, when you first emailed me about it, I was like, yes, please, let's do it. So I'm really glad that you chose that as a topic, but one thing that you mentioned in the show is that Lady Gaga has come under fire recently for her collaboration, her 2013 collaboration with R. Kelly and her comments kind of following that. In her defense of him, she kind of said something to the effect of, people make up a lot of things about me and kind of deflected, really the allegations, the very serious allegations that have followed R. Kelly's career for a very long time. And it kind of surprised me in a way, given Gaga's 2015 song Till It Happens to youo, which was written and performed for the documentary the Hunting Ground, which is about on college campuses. And because Lady Gaga has been such a vocal advocate, really, in the years since that song for victims of sexual violence and sexual trauma. You know, it really got me thinking about the MeToo movement in the industry and R. Kelly and, you know, I really would love to know your thoughts about it. You touched on it a little bit in the episode, but can you give us a little bit more on that?

[B]

Sure. Well, as you know, we did not play do what yout Want, the duet between Lady Gaga and R. Kelly in the episode. It's one of the few big Gaga hits that we actually did not play in the episode. And it wasn't a tough call. Given the mute R. Kelly movement. I felt it was important to stand with those who are not playing R. Kelly's music at this time, and particularly given the fact that Gaga herself, literally, during the month that we were putting the episode together, walked back and apologized for her comments and as I said in the episode, actually removed do what you want from artpop, her album on Spotify and Apple Music and other services. So that wasn't a tough call. The larger question is how R. Kelly has continued to be supported by this music industry, by other artists. This has been the $64 million question for me too, is when is the music business out of all the content industries? I mean really, you can point to any other major content industry, be it movies, publishing, even television certainly. And they have all in the last couple of years had a MeToo reckoning and music has not. And what is it about music that has made it so slow to change? Stubborn, I think the attachment of rock and roll to the mythos of the underage girl, the teenager, whether it's Chuck Berry on a hit like sweet little 16, all the cats wanna dance with sweet little 16, sweet.

[C]

She'S got the.

[B]

Grown up blue for the Beatles, their opening line of the classic I saw her standing there.

[C]

Well she was just 17, you know what I mean?

[B]

This has been around a long time. And I also think it's an industry that prizes freedom of speech arguably more than any. But of course, in the case of R. Kelly, we're not just talking about lyrics, the libidinous nature of a lot of his material. We're talking about actual abuse of teenage girls. And as the docuseries goes into great detail, it proved surprisingly hard to, in a court of law, prove that Kelly was guilty of what he's been accused of. And that left the industry in this weird purgatory of, well, we believe in freedom of expression and this guy has not been convicted of a crime. So are we going to defend our artists rights to sing about what they want? And I don't know why it's taken this long, but I think it has something to do, in short, with the approach and the history and the ethics of the music industry.

[C]

Yeah, and I mean one thing that really seems to be shifting the conversation, I think for the first time really around this issue, is this whole hashtag campaign adjacent to MeToo, mute R. Kelly, where it's listeners and its fans saying to the music industry directly and pressuring radio stations. And I think to a certain extent that is reverberating to say, do not play his music, telling DJs at radio stations and just generally on social media saying, we do not want to hear his music. And I wonder, I think it's a wait and see. But, like, if the same kind of social activism that really gave birth to MeToo is going to really move the needle, to quote, Mute R. Kelly. And then I think going forward, if the music industry itself is reluctant to change, is it up to the fans and is it up to the listeners to push the industry to a place if people, I think, you know, are fine with continuing to hear the music? I don't think that the industry will face the proverbial music.

[B]

It is interesting that it took pressure from, I would say, rank and file fans to finally bring this about. And the Dream Hampton documentary, it changed the conversation. But even before the documentary, the Mute R. Kelly movement was starting to build momentum. One interesting thing about music is that it's kind of in the ether. It kind of surrounds you. You can choose not to watch a television show, you can choose not to go a movie, but you may be confronted by a song out, you know, when you go to the drugstore or, you know, in a passing car. And so there's an element of passive consumption of music that makes it different and I think must make it visceral for certain people such that a movement like Mute R. Kelly would take over. And when you're talking about an artist like R. Kelly, the guy has had hits. He has been responsible for hits by others. He even wrote the last number one hit in the 90s for Michael Jackson. You are not alone. Which is discussed briefly in the Surviving R. Kelly documentary. Ironically enough, in the weeks since Surviving R. Kelly appeared, Michael Jackson is the name that is now in the news, thanks to a documentary that premiered at Sundance, talking about his history, his allegations of molestation of minors. And I think 2019 is not just going to be about R. Kelly and the Mute R. Kelly movement. I think there's gonna be a reckoning with one of the biggest artists of all time, Michael Jackson.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, what you were saying about where music kind of confronts you in the world and you can't sometimes get around it. Like you said, you can not watch a television show or a film. But thinking about Michael Jackson's music, I mean, it's in Advertisements everywhere. And it's really, Michael Jackson is a part of American culture. He is woven into the fabric of our society in all different kinds of ways, from his iconic looks that he's worn to his dancing to his music like he is. And, yeah, I mean, he's an American institution. And so, as a big fan of Michael Jackson myself, it's challenging to sort of grapple with these questions.

[B]

R. Kelly is already a little bit difficult for the general public to live without. It's been argued that the reason why we gave so many chances to R. Kelly, both before and after his trial was because, well, he made these immortal hits. He made I Believe I Can Fly. He made Ignition Remix. That's a jam. Ergo, we're going to cut R. Kelly some slack. We allow ourselves, when we have a catchy record like ignition remix in 2003 or do what yout Want in 2013, to sort of blissfully forget what we're talking about when we talk about these allegations of, you know, sex with minors and sexual abuse. And that's when folks are reminded some things may be more important than the fact that this record is a jam.

[C]

So, listeners, you know, we'd love to hear from you about this. Where does this MeToo movement go for the music industry? How are you feeling about it?

[B]

You can reach out to us either on Twitter I'm or email [e-mail] we'd love to hear from you and your thoughts about our R. Kelly, Michael Jackson and the MeToo movement in the music business.

[C]

All right, well, let's take a break and play some trivia.

[B]

Now. Let's play some trivia. And joining us for our trivia round is anne from Washington, D.C. ann, are you there?

[A]

I am, Chris. How are you?

[B]

I'm great. Thanks so much for joining us, Anne. You are a Slate plus member, correct?

[A]

Yes, since 2016. I really can't tell you how much I love the podcast, Chris.

[B]

Oh, that's sweet.

[A]

My husband and I listen to it when we can. We listen to it together, but if we listen to it separately, we always come back together and chat about it. And it's the only podcast that I listen to at regular speed, as opposed to one and a half. So.

[B]

Wow. Okay, now I'm on it. Okay. As speaking as a one and a half person myself, I'm very honored by that, so thank you. That's excellent. I would like to remind our listeners that while this bridge episode is available to all Hit Parade subscribers, we only open our trivia rounds to Slate plus members. So if you are a member and would like to be a Trivia contestant, visit slate.com hitparadesignup that's slate.com hitparadesignUp so, Anne, as you may recall, the three trivia questions I'm going to ask you will be divided between our last full length episode of Hit Parade, which was about Lady Gaga, and the next two will be a preview of our next Hit Parade episode. Were you a Lady Gaga fan prior to listening to our last episode?

[A]

So I will admit that about 10 years ago, a colleague of mine said, lady Gaga is great. She's bigger than Madonna. And I declared that to be blasphemy.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But over time, I have been won over. I really feel like the story you told in the last episode charted how she has grown as a performer and as a musician. And I really do feel like she's just top notch. I think she's great. I think she's wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, you're not alone, because my other point in the episode was that, you know, a lot of people, this critic included, I was writing a chart column at the time. A lot of us said, well, you know, this is very charming, this single, but surely, you know, this will be over very quickly. And oh, how wrong we were.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, you're in good company there. All right, well, let's get into the trivia. And as I said, the first question is going to be a callback to the last episode. The next two are going to be previews of the next episode. Are you ready?

[A]

Yes, I am.

[B]

All right, question one. In last month's episode, I pointed out that Lady Gaga has two of the 20 top selling digital songs of all time. What are those two hits? A, Born this Way and Edge of Glory. B, Poker Face and Bad Romance. C, Just Dance and Poker Face. Or D, Bad Romance and Born this Way.

[A]

I'm going to go with C, Chris.

[B]

And that is correct. The correct answer is Just Dance and Poker Face. Gaga's first two number one hits are also her two bestsellers, each having sold more than 7 million downloads. By the way, Bad Romance, which was a number two hit, is her next highest seller with 5.8 million. And Born this Way follows with 4.2 million. All right, strong out of the gate. You were clearly paying attention to our last episode. Nice job. Now let's preview our next episode. Ready for question two?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Here we go. In Billboard Hot 100 history, the band Credence Clearwater Revival holds a unique record. They generated the most number two hits without Reaching number one, five number two hits in total. Which of these CCR hits was not one of their number twos? A, Proud Mary, B, down on the Corner, C, Green river or D, Bad Moon Rising.

[A]

I think it's Green River.

[B]

I'm sorry. The correct answer is B, down on the corner down on the corner out in the street Playing the boat for the Plan Bring the nickel down. While this late 1969 hit was CCR's fourth straight top ten hit, it only got as high as number three. The other three singles I mentioned were all 1969 singles and all number two hits. All right, one for two. You have a chance to redeem yourself on this final question. You ready for number three, Ann?

[A]

I sure am.

[B]

All right. Great. Credence Clearwater revival scored these five number two hits in a tight time frame from 1969 to 1970. And in that period, several CCR hits were blocked by songs that are now considered classics. Which of these number one hits did not hold Credence at number two? A, the Beatles Come Together, B, Sly and the Family Stone, Everyday People, C Simon and Garfunkel Bridge Over Troubled Water, or D, Diana Ross Ain't no Mountain High Enough.

[A]

I feel like the Beatles weren't quite chart toppers at that point, so I'm gonna go with the. The Beatles song Come Together.

[B]

You are, in fact, correct. The correct answer is Come Together.

[C]

Come Together right now. Over Me.

[B]

That Beatles hit did actually reach number one in late 1969, but at that point, Credence Clearwater Revival were nowhere near the number two spot. Down on the Corner was at number nine. However, the hits by Sly, Simon, Garfunkel and Diana Ross all prevented Credence from ever topping the Hot 100. All right. Rock on. Two for three. That was great.

[A]

Awesome.

[C]

Yay.

[B]

Nice job. Now, this is the fun part of Hit Parade. The Bridge. You're going to turn the tables on me. And I have not had a good record of getting these trivia questions the last few months. So we'll see if my imperfect streak continues. Do you have a trivia question for me?

[A]

I do. Are you ready?

[B]

I'm as ready as I'll ever be.

[A]

Okay. Despite the band's hit Born on the bayou, CCR actually hails from El Cerrito, California, about 15 miles outside of San Francisco. Which other famous rock band also has roots in El Cerrito and was even honored by the town's mayor back in 2016? Was it a, the Beach Boys, B, Van Halen C, Metallica or D, the.

[B]

Doors that's a great question. I'm gonna throw the Doors out because I think they're a Los Angeles band, whereas El Cerrito, I believe, is further north. Right. And I'm just gonna take a stab and say Van Halen.

[A]

The correct answer is C. Metallica. It was in a garage in El Cerrito that Metallica wrote and rehearsed most of the songs for their second and third albums, Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets. After seeing former bassist Cliff Burton perform in LA in 1982, Metallica front men James Hatfield and Lars Ulrich asked Burton to join the band, and he agreed to, but only on the condition that the group relocate from LA to El Cerrito. Master of Puppets peaked at number 29 on the Billboard 200 in May 1986, and again at number 165 in December 2017 after the group reissued the album the Beach Boys. Van Halen and the Doors are also from the Golden State, but hailing from Hawthorne, Pasadena, and Los Angeles, California, respectively. So you got that part right, Chris.

[B]

All right, well, that's minor recompense for me. But, you know, I knew a teeny bit about Metallica's interesting. I guess we can say Bay Area history, because there's like a whole separate Bay Area Music Awards show that they've won several awards at. So I probably should have known that. But once again, I have been stumped, and rightfully so. And that was a terrific question. So thank you, Anne. And you didn't do badly yourself. 2 out of 3. So I hope you're holding your head up high on this one.

[A]

I definitely am. Thank you very much.

[B]

All right, well, thanks for joining us on Hit Parade, the Bridge.

[A]

Thank you, Chris.

[C]

Oh, man. Chris, your record here is really not good.

[B]

Really not good. I think it's been about six months since I've actually gotten that question. Right.

[C]

Well, I kind of love our listeners for it, but, I mean, that was a hard question.

[B]

That was really hard.

[C]

I didn't know that Creedence Clearwater Revival was from California. I always thought that they were some sort of, you know, Louisiana swamp band, because that's what they sound like, right?

[B]

No, that much I knew. And that's one of the interesting paradoxes of Credence as a band is that they sound like they're from the bayou. They even had a hit called Born on the Bayou. But they are from California. And their leader, John Fogarty, is this really interesting figure. He's almost like the ultimate American hitmaker of 50 years ago, in the sense that he had elements of Rock and country and pop and even a little bit of R and B. Like their first big hit was an R and B cover all baked into this music. He wrote and he wrote these just irrepressible songs that were instantly catchy. And in the case of a song like Proud Mary, iconic Proud Mary, Keep on Rolling. There's a reason why that became a hit twice, not only by Credence, but then just a year later for Ike and Tina Turner in a much more R and B rave up form. So I want to talk about this unusual record that Credence Clearwater Revival has. It's one of the fun bits of chart trivia. If you talk to Billboard chart nerds, everybody likes to recite this data point that Credence have five number two hits and they never went to number one. But also talk a little bit, as you saw in that last trivia question about the number one hits that blocked Credence. Some of them are classics. I mentioned three of them in that question. Some of them are not. And one of the things I like to remind people of is that as great as the 60s were and as amazing as the music of the 60s was, a lot of the hits of 68, 69, 70 were not classics. They were goofy little novelty records that were just massive hits in their day. And Credence was blocked by songs as great as Bridge Over Troubled Water and let's call them more minor hits and we'll, we'll talk about them when we do our next full length episode.

[C]

So I'm really so excited to listen because I think this is some trivia you probably don't know, but my go to karaoke song is Proud Mary. So I'm really excited. Yes, it is. It's, it's. And it is the Credence version.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, I think it just. One of the reasons I pick it for karaoke strategy is it's a song everybody knows and loves. So the singing of the crowd around me really drowns me out. So it's really, it's really more strategy. But I can't wait to listen. I'm a big fan of ccr, so I'm really looking forward to it. And thank you so much again for having me on this episode of the Bridge.

[B]

It's always a pleasure to have you on tj.

[C]

I'm TJ Raphael, the senior producer for the Slate Podcast Network.

[B]

And I'm Chris Melanfi. Keep on Marching on the one.