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Hey everybody, this is Chris Mulanfi, host of Hit Parade, Slate's podcast of pop chart history. Welcome to the Bridge. That's Abacab by Genesis, their 1981 hit from the album of the same name. As we told you in last month's Hit Parade about the history of Genesis, frontman Phil Collins named the track spelled A B, a C, a B after the letter pattern that pop songwriters commonly use to organize their songs. And that special part, C. That's the bridge. And these mini episodes bridge our full length monthly episodes give us a chance to catch up with listeners and enjoy some Hit Parade trivia. This month I'm fortunate to be joined by both a co host and a guest. Let's bring in my co host first. One more time, it's my colleague who helps me take it to the Bridge. Slate podcast senior producer, TJ Raphael. Hey, tj.
C
Hey, Chris. Thanks for having me on.
B
Absolutely, Always a pleasure.
C
I just finished listening to the last full length episode of Hit Parade on my way into the studio today. And one thing that really stood out to me while I was listening was the point that you made about how difficult it is for an artist who started in a group dynamic to really break away and formulate their own successful career. And I think that's what makes the whole story about Genesis and Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel so interesting in so many ways. Can you talk about a few other artists you mentioned? Of course, Justin Timberlake, who broke away from NSync, and then you also mentioned Lionel Richie who went on to have his own very successful career. Can you tell us a about a couple performers that maybe stand out for you because they weren't able to break away? And I guess also what makes that transition successful for some and for others? Why can some artists do it? And what is that special sauce that maybe somebody needs?
B
I mean, it is kind of a special sauce and it's hard to predict sometimes. And I think there have been solo careers that have not worked out that you really could have sworn would have worked out. And also the ones you mentioned who were successful, Justin Timberlake, LIONEL Richie, the four solo Beatles, particularly John Lennon and Paul McCartney. But you know, George Harrison too had an enormous solo career. They all look inevitable in retrospect. But the fact is, one little thing goes wrong, or if the public just isn't able to change its perceptions about a performer, that's the death knell for a solo career. Inevitably, if you're talking about a very famous would be solo artist who Couldn't succeed. You have to talk about Mick Jagger. By the time he went solo in the 1980s, he was so associated with the Rolling Stones and so tied to chemistry in that band, which is so special, the chemistry between him and Keith Richards, Charlie Watts, their amazing drummer, that it was hard for people to pull him apart. Many people, if anything, regard Mick Jagger's solo career as a bit of a punchline now because he performed in one of the most unintentionally hilarious duets of all time, the David Bowie duet Dancing in the streets in 1985.
D
In New York City.
B
Another example that leaps to mind is Debbie Harry, the front woman of Blondie. Again, Debbie Harry did not do too, too badly as a solo artist. She had singles like In Love with love in the 80s that did well on the dance charts. But you would have thought after Blondie absolutely dominated the charts at the end of the 70s and the beginning of the 80s, that she would have gone on to just a massive solo career. When people hear the name Blondie, they almost equate it with Debbie Harry. In fact, frankly, Blondie has had to do interviews with Chris Stein and Jimmy Destry and the other members of the band, in which they remind people, blondie is a band, it's not a woman. Debbie Harry is not Blondie. But by the time Debbie Harry tried to go solo in the 80s, I think people just kind of assumed, well, she's Blondie, Blondie is Debbie Harry, Debbie Harry is Blondie. And that's why her solo career didn't take off. So I just think it's this ineffable thing where at a certain point, if somebody again like Freddie Mercury of Queen is equated with Queen, Mick Jagger is equated with the Rolling Stones, Debbie Harry with Blondie. It's very difficult for the public to sort of accept them under their own name. The brand is the band, the brand is the solo star.
C
Obviously, one that did work very well is Beyonce. She started out in Destiny's Child. They've had several hits. She was able to make her transition away from the group and become this pop mega star, you know, pop culture royalty at this point. And then occasionally she still does stuff with Destiny's Child. I don't think they put out any new music, but they'll perform some of their old hits, and everybody still goes crazy for that when the three of them get together. So she's one that's been able to make the successful transition away from a group, one that maybe is one and a half, I would say Adam Levine from Maroon 5. Obviously, I think Maroon 5 still is together and producing music, but at the same time, Adam Levine is. Has sort of broken away theoretically from the group where he's sort of his own performer and has his own notoriety that isn't so wrapped up with Maroon 5.
B
I love the examples you're giving. These are excellent 21st century examples. And the reason why both of them have kind of worked, although you're right about Adam Levine's being a special case, is that in each case, the group was almost a vehicle for the performer. I think everybody feels that Destiny's Child, who, don't forget, were a quartet originally with two different women before one was ejected and a different person brought in before the 90s were even over that Destiny's Child were always going to be a vehicle for Beyonce's solo career, which is why that solo career took off as well as it did. Let's give Kelly Rowland her props. She's had some massive hits and has done far better as the so called side person to Beyonce and Destiny's Child. Kelly Rowland has had an extremely respectable career. And then in the case of Adam Levine, he rarely records as Adam Levine. He has. You're absolutely right. He has his own Persona, thanks largely to NBC's the Voice, on which he has developed this kind of lovable, smart ass character that works for him. Right. But when he records, he pretty much almost always records. There are a couple of examples. I believe there's a Gym Class Hero song where he does the vocal line, and I believe he is credited as Adam Levine. But by and large, even on a song like Moves Like Jagger or even on, you know, songs that for all intents and purposes, Girls like youe, the big number one hit from last year, feel like Adam Levine showcases. They are still branded as Maroon 5. And it's as if Adam Levine has learned the lesson from, say, a Mick Jagger to talk about somebody who's in the title of one of his most famous number one songs. He's learned the lesson from Mick jagger that if Maroon 5 is the brand, I'm gonna stick to the brand. Even if I'm recording with rappers and even if there aren't many guitars. And this, frankly, just doesn't sound that much like a Maroon 5 song anymore. Maroon 5 is the brand. That's what I bring to the table. That's how I get on the radio. And so Adam Levine is almost, you might say, the cautionary tale for the solo career. So those are both excellent examples, actually.
C
Awesome. Let's take a quick Break, and then we'll play some trivia.
B
Excellent. Now is the moment in this episode of Hit Parade, the Bridge, where we do some trivia. And we're delighted to be joined today by Drew. Drew, can you hear us?
E
I can.
B
Where are you joining us from, Drew?
E
So right now I'm at a summer camp in the North Georgia mountains.
B
Wow, that sounds bucolic. Quite pleasant. I understand that during the regular school year you are a high school teacher, is that right? I am.
E
I'm the director of the music program at a small private high school on the north side of Atlanta.
B
Oh, well, we couldn't ask for a better trivia contestant. That's great. One other question I should ask you. Are you a Slate plus member?
E
Yes, I am.
B
That's fantastic. How long have you been a Slate plus member?
E
I think for the better part of a year.
B
And this is the moment when I like to remind everyone on these bridge episodes that while this episode is available to all Hit Parade subscribers, we only open our trivia rounds to Slate plus members. So if you are a member and would like to be a trivia contestant, visit slate.com hitparadesignup that's slate.com hit parade signup. All right, Drew, so we're going to do our usual three question quiz. As you may recall from past episodes, the first trivia question will be a throwback to the last full length Hit Parade episode. And the next two will be a preview of the next Hit Parade episode. And then you're going to get to turn the tables on me. Quiz me on a trivia question of your own. So are you ready for some trivia?
E
I am.
B
Wonderful. Here we go. Question one. In last month's episode, we talked about multiple songs by current and former members of Genesis that were all competing directly on the charts in the summer of 1986. Which of these was not one of those hits from that summer? A, Mike and the All I Need Is a Miracle. B Peter Gabriel Sledgehammer. C GTR when the Heart Rules the Mind. Or D, Phil Collins Susudio. I'm gonna go with A. I'm sorry. The correct answer was D. Sosudio. That Phil Collins one hit did reach the top in July of 1985, while all of the others hit in June and July of 1986. All right, no big deal. One down, two to go. We've got two more for you that are gonna be a preview of the next episode. Are you ready for some more trivia?
E
Yes.
B
All right, here we go. Question 2. This is a fairly Straightforward question. In Billboard album chart history, from 1955 to the present, what album has spent the most weeks at number one? A, the soundtrack to west side Story, B Fleetwood Mac's Rumors, C Michael Jackson's Thriller, or D, Adele's 21?
E
I'm gonna go ahead and guess.
A
A.
B
That is exactly correct. The correct answ answer is A. West side Story, The soundtrack to the movie version of the legendary Broadway musical, is still more than six decades later, the longest lasting number one album in history. It spent 54 weeks more than a year on top of the album chart. Fantastic. Nice going, Drew.
E
Thanks.
B
You're one for two. And you've got one more question to go. Are you ready for question three?
E
Yes.
B
Here we go. Question three. In 1964, the Beatles dominated the Hot 100. As we told you about, in an early episode of Hit Parade, they had three consecutive uninterrupted number ones, still an unbeaten chart feat. However, what song finally ejected the beatles from number one in May of 1964? A, Mary Wells, My Guy. B, Louis Armstrong's hello, Dolly, C, the Beach Boys, I Get around, or D, the Four Seasons, Rag Doll.
E
I'm gonna say B, Louis Armstrong.
B
And that is exactly right. The correct answer is B. Hello, Dolly. Hello, Dolly.
D
This is Louis. Darling, it's so nice to have you back where you belong.
B
Satchmo's cover of the title song from the smash 1964 Broadway musical was not only an unlikely number one hit, it ushered the Beatles out of the Hot 100's number one spot after they dominated it for 14 straight weeks. Excellent. You killed it on our two preview questions. Nice going, Drew.
C
Thank you.
B
Are you a fan of Broadway musical music, or is that just a field of expertise for you?
E
I am a fan. I truthfully was in west side Story in high school.
B
Oh, no wonder. So you are familiar with the soundtrack to west side Story? That's great. Now is the point where you get to turn the tables on me and ask me a trivia question. Have you brought a question for me, Drew?
E
I do, Chris.
B
All right, lay it on me.
E
Broadway theater has long had deep connections to pop stars. And although plenty of stars have sampled and covered Broadway hits, Broadway has also looked to the pop charts for inspiration. Which diva's life was recently turned into a Broadway musical? Is it A, Madonna, B, Cher, C, Aretha Franklin, or D, Whitney Houston?
B
Well, having just watched the Tonys this week and having seen the lead actress from this musical take home the Tony for best actress in a musical, I think I'm gonna go with B. Cher.
E
The correct answer is B. Cher. Madonna, Cher, Whitney, and Aretha all have connections to Broadway, but it is Cher who has had an entire Broadway show dedicated to her life. The Cher show is currently on Broadway and covers her six decades of stardom. This week, it even took home a Tony Award when Cher show cast member Stephanie J. Block won for best leading actress in a musical.
B
Fantastic. Well, I'm glad that I was watching the Tonys and that I got that one. So we all get to walk away with a victory this episode of the Bridge. Drew, I want to thank you for joining us, and I hope we haven't taken you too far away from camp today.
E
All I missed was fish sticks and Mac and cheese in the dining hall, so, no. Thanks for having me.
B
You're very welcome. Thanks, Drew.
E
Thank you.
B
So, speaking of the Tonys, I'm now excited to welcome my special guest. Elizabeth Craft is an assistant professor of musicology at the University of Utah. Her research focuses on musical theater from the early 20th century to the present. She's published on the musicals of Lin Manuel Miranda, including a recent article on the politics of Hamilton. And she's currently working on a book on Broadway legend George M. Cohan. Hello, Elizabeth.
A
Hello. Thanks for having me.
B
Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it. And you're joining us from quite a ways off. Where are you calling us from?
A
I am here in beautiful, mountainous Salt Lake City, Utah.
B
And the reason we wanted to have you on this episode of Hit Parade, the Bridge is that we were thinking about Broadway this month. Given the Tony Awards, which were, as we're recording just this last Sunday, and thinking about popular song as reflected by the Broadway musical and the American musical as an art form. And you are an expert in that. And I wonder if you can talk to us a little bit today about what it takes for a Broadway song to infiltrate the larger popular culture. And feel free to mention any of this year's Tony nominees. Do you think any of them stand a chance of making that kind of crossover?
A
Yeah. Great questions. Let's start with what does it take for a Broadway song to infiltrate pop culture? And it's such a tricky thing to know. I mean, I think a lot of the times the Broadway shows that are the most successful are the ones that you never saw coming. Hamilton is a great example. Who would have thought a rap musical about Alexander Hamilton would be such a mega hit?
D
No one else was in the room where it happened the room where it happened where it had been no one else was in the room where it happened the room where it happened. The room where it happened. No one really knows how the game.
B
Right. And, well, if it were easy to figure out, I'm sure every producer on Broadway would, you know, be replicating that formula right now. And perhaps there is no formula. You also made a very good point about the fact that popular song and the Broadway style or the show tune style used to be much closer to each other. And your scholarship is in the American musical of the 20th century up to the present day. How did the American Broadway musical take shape in the 20th century? And maybe you can talk a little bit about its relationship to popular culture.
A
Yeah, in the early 20th century, the musical was popular culture. There wasn't a big difference. You had shows, songs from shows were played on stage, but then sold as sheet music that people would play and sing at the piano in their homes. Those songs would be recorded on phonograph and then on radio, keeping up with the technology of the day. The guy I study a lot right now, George M. Cohan, his songs, you could find his songs, Give My Regards to Broadway is actually from a show. It's from a show called Little Johnny Jones. And there were phonograph recordings of that in the 20s and 30s. The songwriters like Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, they were popular music. And in fact they're still the American songbook. That started to change in the mid 20th century and then especially in the later 20th century.
B
One thing I talk about a little bit in my writing about rock and roll and popular music since basically the 1950s, is that the advent of the self contained band and the writer like John Lennon and Paul McCartney of the Beatles, who wrote their own material, tended to change the business model of songwriting. You know, the Tin Pan Alley model, or later the Brill Building model. I imagine that that's the story of Broadway too, right? What changed Broadway's relationship to popular music and my interest, the pop charts.
A
I think there are a couple of things. The biggest one that people talk about is the. The rise of rock. All of a sudden there was a new form of popular music that Broadway songwriters weren't using in their shows, and that took over the charts. Another one was the rise of what musical theater scholars call the integrated musical. So the integrated musical means a show that the songs support the plot and they develop the character. And the dance also supports the plot and the characters. Everything's working together. It's more like the operatic ideal of the Gesamtkunstwerk. Let's say Oklahoma is a watershed moment for the integrated musical and that's in the 1940s.
D
We're only saying you're doing fine. Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Okay.
A
Oklahoma.
D
Where the ring comes scraping down the plate. Oklahoma.
B
So you mentioned Oklahoma, which just won a Tony this weekend for a revival. So obviously that's a show that's got strong bones and lives on to this day. But then we've really seen Broadway in the 21st century generate some massive hits. Not just shows like Hamilton, which of course everybody knows at this point, but shows like Dear Evan Hansen. This week we saw Hadestown sweep the Tonys. We've seen shows like Waitress, some of which are adapted. Waitress was adapted from a movie. How has Broadway influenced pop or been influenced by pop, if you can talk about that in the 21st century? Both on its own terms, show tunes that have become hits, and maybe even as a flavor in today's popular music.
A
Yeah, it's such an exciting time to be thinking about musical theater. In the 80s and 90s, people were kind of bemoaning the demise of the Broadway musical, that its best days were behind it. And now, especially with the success of Hamilton and Dear Evan Hansen and shows like it, people are kind of talking about a second golden age. There is all of a sudden a link between Broadway and a broader pop culture. Again, we're seeing more Broadway film musicals, film adaptations of Broadway musicals, or film musicals that are newly written, and then songs that borrow from Broadway hits as well, like Ariana Grande. And Gwen Stefani apparently loves musicals. So she did Rich Girl with if I Were a Rich man from Fiddler on the Roof, and then she also did Wind it up with Lonely Goatherd.
B
Well, this has been enormously informative. Elizabeth, I can't thank you enough for being on. And as my listeners can probably tell by this conversation we've had about Broadway and Broadway music and its relationship with the charts, that's going to be the theme of the next full length episode of Hit Parade. Like Elizabeth has been saying throughout this conversation, Broadway music was once synonymous with American hit music, and the rock era helped change that. But certain musicals and certain Broadway composers and performers and songs have continued to infiltrate the pop landscape and the charts. So in a way, you may be listening to things that come from the world of show tunes on your radio without even knowing it. Elizabeth, you were pointing out that some of the tropes that we hear in the Broadway musical do eventually make their way into popular song. Does that ring a bell for you?
A
Absolutely. Those songs are part of our collective vocabulary. It's hard to grow up not knowing things like the Sound of Music or Annie. So whether it's a pop star borrowing those and sampling them in a song, or whether it's the interplay between jukebox musicals we do, the link between Broadway and the pop charts is not lost.
F
From standing on the corners bopping to driving some of the hottest cars New York has ever seen, for dropping some of the hottest verses rappers ever heard from the dope spot with the Smoke lock singing the Murder Scene, I want.
B
To thank Elizabeth Craft for being such an informative and gracious hit parade the Bridge guest. And thanks as always additionally to my co host TJ Raphael. I'm Chris Melanfi. Keep on marching on the one.
F
I flow for those drilled out all my locked down in a ten by four Controlling our house we live in hard knocks we don't take over we ball blocks.
This Bridge episode of Hit Parade offers a lively, wide-ranging discussion of what it takes for group artists to become successful solo acts, features a fun music trivia round with a listener, and spotlights the evolving relationship between Broadway musicals and mainstream pop music. Host Chris Molanphy, joined by producer TJ Raphael and special guest musicologist Elizabeth Craft, unpacks half a century of pop and Broadway history—exploring chart trends, musical reinvention, and the enduring crossover between show tunes and the Top 40.
[01:11 – 07:59]
Group Dynamics vs. Going Solo: TJ Raphael kicks off by referencing the last episode on Genesis, noting how hard it can be for artists like Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel—or anyone from a successful group—to break away and make it solo.
Ingredients for a Hit Solo Career: Chris explains there’s no foolproof formula; timing, public perception, and branding all play roles.
Examples of Missed Solo Success:
When it Works:
[08:02 – 14:43]
Genesis Chart Hits (Summer 1986):
Longest #1 Album in Billboard History:
Who Ended The Beatles’ 1964 Hot 100 Streak?
Listener Trivia for Chris:
[15:05 – 23:01]
What Makes a Broadway Song Go Mainstream?
Early 20th Century: Broadway WAS Popular Music
The Great Divide: Rock and Songwriting Shifts
“Integrated Musical” and the Plot-Driven Song
21st Century: A Second Broadway Golden Age?
Broadway Tropes in Pop, and Vice Versa
This episode of Hit Parade: The Bridge offers a smart, accessible blend of pop music analysis, pop-culture history, and musical trivia. Whether you’re wondering why some artists thrive after leaving their bands or curious about how Broadway and the Top 40 continue to intersect, Chris and his guests provide answers with wit and depth, making this episode a must-listen for both chart nerds and show tune lovers.