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- [00:04]
Ray Nomoto
So, Anna, here we are.
- [00:06]
Anna Angelic
Here we are, Ray. It took us only eight weeks, three days and 17 hours.
- [00:13]
Ray Nomoto
Not too bad, not too bad.
- [00:14]
Anna Angelic
Start this. Not too bad, honestly. No, no. It only took office or something like that.
- [00:19]
Ray Nomoto
That's right.
- [00:19]
Anna Angelic
But I'm excited to be here.
- [00:30]
Ray Nomoto
Hi, this is Ray Nomoto. I am the founding partner of a company called Ayanco. I'm based in New York, but we have offices in Tokyo and Singapore. And we are a brand innovation firm working with brand and business leaders to help them navigate change.
- [00:44]
Anna Angelic
Hi, I'm Anna Angelic. I'm brand executive. I worked at the fashion, luxury and lifestyle brands, most recently sg, brand officer at Banana Republic and Esprit. I have a book coming out called called Hit Makers, how brands influence Culture and write the weekly newsletter Sociology of Business. And as if one accent is not enough, I have my friend Ray to compliment me with some Japanese one.
- [01:11]
Ray Nomoto
That's right, yeah. Between you, me and our producer Vanya, we maximize.
- [01:16]
Anna Angelic
Perfect.
- [01:17]
Ray Nomoto
Come on, maximize the DI quota.
- [01:21]
Anna Angelic
That's the plan. So welcome to Hitmakers Podcast with Anna and Ray. You can expect conversations about brands, product strategy, creativity and culture every two weeks for about half an hour of conversations, ending up with deep insights. So take notes.
- [01:39]
Ray Nomoto
Let's get to it. So the title of this podcast, you and I brainstormed quite a bit. We had a list of, I don't know, 50 different names and slightly different topics. But where we landed is Hitmakers, which by the way, is your upcoming book just to promote that a little bit as well. And the context of the title, Hitmakers is how brands influence culture. So do you want to talk about the reason why you started writing this book and why you are interested at the intersection of brands and culture and business?
- [02:15]
Anna Angelic
I think that's a great way to start. But then I would also ask you why did you like the title Hitmaker for this book podcast? Because that's the one that we actually that resonated with both of us and it was not in the original like list. So the reason I called it like, by the way, like, I am aware that Derek Thompson has a book called Hit Makers, but this is completely different topic. That is not nothing new under the sun really. So it's how brands influence culture. The reason is that when I was a Banana Republican, Esprit, I started doing marketing strategy and creativity, creative output a little bit outside of traditional marketing strategies. Which means I started thinking especially this pre about entertainment and show business and how that is structured. I know it's very popular to talk about entertainment but Honestly, putting a 30 second spot on social is not entertainment. It's a 30 second, it's like it's a commercial, you know.
- [03:17]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [03:18]
Anna Angelic
So it's not that it was more about how to create one programming, cultural programming platform. Which means basically how do you define cultural products? Collaborations, merch, content, ads. After all, events, experiences, exhibitions that are filtered to your brand's point of view. And how do you then unoperationalize it in a way that is our role throughout the entire year and then each of the cultural outputs amplifies the other one. And what does that mean in terms of media planning, which is usually done at the beginning of the year or six months in advance at least to say, hey, we are planning Q3 and what are we going to do in terms of media? This is more like looking in which context that those different cultural output, like merge or collab or an exhibition or event or piece of content really performs well. And using media to amplify it and then execution that rollout plan, how to make sure that everything is connected, works. And what does it mean organizationally, operationally and talent wise is what I became very interested in. And that's what the book is about.
- [04:31]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, yeah. So the reason why I was interested in this topic is perhaps coming at it from a slightly different perspective, which is when I grew up, I'm originally from Japan and I grew up in the 80s and 90s. I think brands occupied a large larger part of the zeitgeist and larger mental space of individuals. So just to give an example, Michael Jordan back in the 80s and 90s used to be such a massive iconic figure that was associated with the brand brand of Nike. Right. And even though I was overseas, I was living in Japan. I remember having, and particularly my younger brother was a massive basketball and Michael Jordan fan. So he had multiple posters. And then when I came to the US for college, I really started to get into culture. But also I was mesmerized by the fact that brands were such strong drivers of culture. And then fast forward, this is in the 90s, right? Fast forward 20 years in 2024. Now that I wonder and question the relevance of brands in culture. At the same time, I think brands can and do occupy a certain portion of the zeitgeist. But I think it's becoming increasingly difficult for for brands to remain or become culturally relevant. So that was my interest and partially because of what I do, which is to work with brand and business leaders and help them navigate change. Helping brands be and stay relevant is something that I Do sometimes from a marketing perspective, sometimes from a technology perspective, sometimes from a product perspective, from different perspectives. But brands and organizations staying relevant and potentially influential in culture is an ongoing interest of mine. Especially because there are so many other forces in culture that are making it often difficult for brands to be relevant in that space.
- [06:55]
Anna Angelic
Yes. And I don't necessarily agree that brands are not as relevant in culture as they were. Is the problem is that like they rely on mass media and when mass media stop being as a model of influencing culture, stop being relevant then that, that, that sort of way of communication is not relevant. Yeah, brands are still relevant. However we are seeing like niche brands, micro brands, super targeted ones, smaller. So the influence scale is, is not mass anymore. But some brands are very, very relevant in a lot of different communities. Some brands we never heard of. Yeah, that's one way of saying it. The second is I can also say yeah, maybe they're not as relevant anymore. Maybe it's with online aggregators. Maybe products are where things are at. And that's what we talk about like as product led branding. When a product itself delivers the aesthetics, the value, the, so the narrative, the, the. It doesn't need any sort of wrapping. And basically that is what started Nike at the end of the day, which is the, the waffle suit that allowed Nike to become a brand to make all those sorts of different things. And you have the same with Levi's 501s. The innovation was those little rivulets or whatever his name, the, the that were put in pockets to enforce them. And product innovation led to a brand. And the brand was created through a lot of people wearing that product and participating in different cultural contexts. So you basically have their stories that make the brand. Whereas what you're saying in 80s and 90s, which is the golden age of Pepsi commercials, Cola commercials, Nike commercials, it's all about creating happiness for Coca Cola or music for pet. Like creating some sort of an idea and then shoving products under that idea and thinking that that emotional association is. That's what the brand used to be. But I wonder if a brand can be like original brands are literally their marks on cows and other properties.
- [09:12]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:13]
Anna Angelic
To signify belonging to someone, you know, to mark them together as, as, as a group of things. So it was literally original brands were literally guarantees of quality. I trust Ray.
- [09:27]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [09:27]
Anna Angelic
So when he puts a star, I know that Ray approved. Right?
- [09:32]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. My brand.
- [09:32]
Anna Angelic
That's your branding?
- [09:33]
Ray Nomoto
Yes. Yeah.
- [09:35]
Anna Angelic
How many of those shirts do you have? Or is that the old one?
- [09:38]
Ray Nomoto
I have multiple. Yeah, we'll we'll get to that. We'll get to that. How many. How many I have. But so just to go deeper in today's topic, which you and I discussed before, before recording this, that we'll talk about product l. Branding. Would you say that every brand starts with a product?
- [09:59]
Anna Angelic
No, it doesn't need to start with the product. I mean, like, look at all. Like, look. Kylie Cosmetics. Look at like, yes, you need to have a hero product, but that product doesn't need to be like markedly better than anything else. Like when you look like. Or Kylie Bieber. Wrong. She was like, her best and most popular innovation is to have iPhone case for a lip balm. Oh, but that's not even a beauty product. That's a tech accessory. So I would. Yes, you can have a. You can have a brand and you can just like. And even like when you think about glossier, for example, where really Emily Weiss delivered was the content and community around beauty cosmetics products. But then when she started creating products, they were not a side of a boy brow. They were nothing to write home about.
- [10:51]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [10:51]
Anna Angelic
You know, when you think about Estee Lauders of the world or like, if you stay with the beauty industry, they created a product that a lot of people used and that allows it. That's what we said about Nike, about Levi's, allows them to diversify in different categories. Today it's Augustinus Beter. It's that, that rich cream that they have that is like people are swearing by and then they introduce others. What do you think?
- [11:16]
Ray Nomoto
I think that in the past, say 10 years, even 20 years ago, it was perhaps slightly easier to build a brand that wasn't dependent on a product or products. But I think in today's market that having a product is more critical than it used to be. And in some cases, depending on different categories of business that we're talking about, products becomes the lead for the brand to exist and establish. Right. So. So that's number one. Number two, I think like the examples that you mentioned, Nike with the waffle shoe or Levi's with the 501s and so forth, those are the early examples of those brands and how they became. How they became popular before they became famous and before they became loved as a brand. So to go back to my earlier point about Nike and Michael Jordan, way before that there were the waffle shoes and Nike Air Max that became sort of iconic representation of a brand. I would say in the case of Nike, before Michael Jordan, they had a guy named Stipul who was a runner and he was the personification of the spirit of the brand. But the shoe that he wore and the other runners at the early on. But I think nowadays, I think products do lead brands. We can also dig deeper into other than a product or products, how a brand is represented can influence the brand's position within culture. Right. So for instance, and I'm going to use a completely different example just as a way of discussion, so something like OpenAI and ChatGPT. Right? OpenAI existed as a company and quote unquote as a brand several years before ChatGPT. And the ChatGPT capability existed before November 2020. 2022. November 2022 is when it became a phenomenon because quote unquote, the product, the chat interface and the fact that you can type into it and then in real time it answers your question and you see it's as if you're discussing with the computer that was the product and that became a sensation. And then people started to be aware of OpenAI as a quote unquote as a brand. And then there's Sam Alterman who's the cheerleader, the flag bearer of the brand, who's leading the charge in the generative AI space. And there are other products like Claude from Anthropic, which is basically A, started by the same people who are at OpenAI and B, it has most of the capabilities of ChatGPT and the capabilities aren't drastically different from ChatGPT. But the mental space that OpenAI and ChatGPT takes up in the cultural zeitgeist is way much bigger, way, way, way more dominant than say Claude and any other very similar quote unquote products.
- [15:17]
Anna Angelic
But isn't it too soon to tell? Because it's been like what, two years changing? It was just the first, you know, so I would give it a minute before to see if Claude or Proximity are going to gain. But I, I see what you're saying. It's kind of brand made tangible or technology made tangible in a, in a customer facing manner in a way that customers can easily relate to, understand, use and so on. So I understand that. So. But I also think that you can have absolutely brands. When I say without products, I don't mean you need to have something physical or you have like experience or you need to have a service, you need to have something that you're offering to some consumer proposition. But look at luxury, luxury brands, especially fashion luxury brands, they're all marketing, they're all branding. It's not really craftsmanship. If you're making everything in China Hermes is craftsmanship because they're made, they have like artisanal workshops and they're making it locally and they're smaller ones, Brunello, Cucinelli, for example. But majority of those brands, they don't have actually the product excellence that may have made the Louis Vuitton truck. That was the thing back in the day because it was the first one that was made. Again, it was a product innovation that created, created a brand with Chanel as well. It was literally hers artistic vision that, that, that created, that changed how women dressed and that created the brand.
- [16:46]
Ray Nomoto
Right.
- [16:46]
Anna Angelic
But when you look like go 30 years back or 40 years back, those are tiny little money losing endeavors because they were actually produced very laboriously and with the craftsmanship in mind and how many you can create if humans are creating it, not gigantic factories and so on.
- [17:07]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. So on that note, luxury I think is an interesting territory to talk about. And I want you to talk specifically about like the aspects of product led branding that you write. But before getting into the specifics, you know, you mentioned lms. Do you think that, I guess how much of that, the power and the presence of a brand like LMS comes from the real quality, real craftsmanship of the product that they, let's say, you know, say the Birkin bag. Right. And yeah, of course there's the craftsmanship and the handmade quality that goes into the product versus whatever other brand that may not put as much resource or as much effort into creating a product but tries to charge you. Where is that discrepancy?
- [18:07]
Anna Angelic
Well, discrepancy I think there is. First of all, if you don't have a brand, then you have artisans. And artisans, you know, when you go through Italy, they're like artisans who are making leather goods without having a brand. The thing is like one is having luxury brands and the other is having artisanal products. And artisanal products and luxury products can be the same thing. If you use the same leather, if you do use the same craftsman or so on, but you don't have a brand, you don't have cultural association, then you sell it as artisanal product, you don't sell it as a luxury product and the price is completely different. What is the price is that soft power, the cultural relevance, cultural resonance? The story how Hermes Birkin was created and now it's on exhibition. The first Birkin bag that someone owns is going to be an exhibition that was created. And because Jane Birkin was the icon, the it girl of the 60s, 70s, so on. So you see it's all those stories. Objects don't have emotional value unless they're touched literally by humans. Some personalities, some context that like you're say, bidding for a pair of Nike Air Jordans, do you, when you're buying one that was part of Virgil Lebloc's collection, it's going to be completely different value and price than the one that was owned by a random hypebeast.
- [19:29]
Ray Nomoto
Okay, so let me break down these five elements of product LED branding that you talk about. And I want to kind of stress test this. No pressure. No pressure, but stress test.
- [19:40]
Anna Angelic
You are going to be stress testing.
- [19:42]
Ray Nomoto
It too, between, between products that we just talked about, say like an Hermes bag or vintage Levi's jacket. Right. But also I want to understand these elements more specifically in relation to say, products that I think have cultural influence but may not have the heritage or history that you talked about. Okay, so just to lay this out, the five elements or five aspects of, of product LED branding, according to the writing that you've done. Number one, value. Number two, wear. Number three, aesthetics. Four, narrative. And five, founder. Yeah. So if we take, let's say Birkin or Levi's jacket, can you quickly talk about what you mean by value where aesthetics, narrative and fandom.
- [20:40]
Anna Angelic
Absolutely. And then I want you to come up with a different example because like, for example, value of a lever jack, it lasts so long. It's really well made because of the product innovation that was at the core of Levi's. So when you buy something on ebay, a jacket, you're buying it because it's still together. It didn't fall apart after 10 years. So that's the actually inherent product value, the quality, product quality. And that is something that luxury brands, you have to have that, that quality. The second one, when you have what.
- [21:16]
Ray Nomoto
Is the second one where.
- [21:18]
Anna Angelic
So value, where we just, I think we talked about that aesthetics is that it's recognizable. So Levi's have a specific way that you recognize Levi's jacket aesthetically versus Wrangler jacket or Diesel jacket and so on. So, so basically the product aesthetic is designed into a product. Some brands have like for example, Birkin has this little clasp or Nike has its own like waffle, maybe the sole or Gucci has double G and you know, like stuff that brand codes that are part of the. Or maybe Burberry has check or you know, so it's basically having a signature aesthetic. The fourth one is narrative, which means what are the stories? So basically that would be all the historical advertising that made Levi's what it is not just those subcultures of people who bought it and wear it, but you know how iconic they were. Like you still remember the one that had in Laundromat, which was now brought back with Beyonce starring in it. But even print ads of Levi's were unbelievably memorable. So that was at the time that advertising was influencing culture to such a degree, mass media, that it really got embedded in people's minds as part of cultural context for a product. So that's what I'm saying about what is the story around this, what context was created, Cultural context and the finally fandom. There are people who have collections of 1950s, 60s, 70s. So they know among themselves who are the dealers, who are the buyers, who are the sellers, what is the they know exactly to tell you what is the value of a certain pair versus another one. So that is important to have there. And I think that that is how people consume today. Although the brands may have not caught up yet. That's what we are seeing on TikTok. That's what we are seeing in. In fan communities among Gen Z right now.
- [23:21]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. One point that you made was product branding is selling the wear, right? The wear is the wear as in wear something that you wear. The wear is the brand. What do you mean by the wear?
- [23:36]
Anna Angelic
It's who was this touched by? Jane Birkin was the one who had the prototype. She wore a Birkin bag and she landed her cultural clout and her significant association emotional charge to that specific product. So when you say when you have Doc Martens or Levi's or Birkenstocks. Birkenstocks were so uncool for like hundred years. They were worn in the 80s by German tourists and by hippies. You know. Then all of a sudden through whims of fashion or by right people wearing them, but also by the side guys being right for them to sort of explode. Because the aesthetics of the culture, the comfort, the what, what, what how people think about work versus leisure. How do they go about the moment? Like the same thing with sneakers. The moment like you had yuppies, you have like metrosexuals in the 90s. And then all of a sudden, oh, you can go to. To work wearing a hoodie, you know. And that changed because the culture over pop culture really changed. So change of pop culture really allowed Birkenstocks to become cool, to collaborate with Dior and whatnot, you know. So I think it's kind of important to look when I say about were, it's not just who there is and that's like the least important thing.
- [25:03]
Ray Nomoto
Okay.
- [25:04]
Anna Angelic
It's like what are the were stories that are embedded in culture and subcultures. Doc Martens were connected with punks. Levi's are connected with farmers first, but then in the 70s, maybe with hippies that, you know, you need to kind of have certain culture that gives product context, and that is that I'm not talking about me literally wearing a pair of 501s, although that may become relevant if I want to sell them on a secondary market and they're like artfully broken in. Like 10 years ago or 12 years ago, I bought an APC vintage pair of jeans. They cleaned them by putting them in fridge and they're worn in such a perfect way that I paid I don't know how much more than I would have paid for a brand new pair. When you go online and you see signs of there become those status symbols, go online, go to ebay, you'll see levi stuff, jackets, 501 so on for $100,000.
- [26:06]
Ray Nomoto
Right, right, right, right. Yeah.
- [26:08]
Anna Angelic
So people are buying the wear, they're not buying that pair of jeans.
- [26:13]
Ray Nomoto
Do you mean when you say wear, is it synonymous with story?
- [26:18]
Anna Angelic
Well, it's synonymous with history, history and heritage. Because by wear you're again, it's been touched by a specific context. It existed in a specific culture. If you buy a pair of Levi's from the 60s, what are you really buying? What are you buying today?
- [26:36]
Ray Nomoto
Well, yeah, you're buying the history to.
- [26:38]
Anna Angelic
Your point and the cultural context and that emotional association. You're literally buying the heritage. You're buying the wear.
- [26:47]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. I have two products that I want to stress test. One is in the fashion retail sector and the other one is the technology sector.
- [26:55]
Anna Angelic
So the first technology, we already talked about fashion, so. Yeah, the technology.
- [27:01]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, technology. The product that I was thinking of was either iPhone or AirPods. Right. These. And then let me. So you know what, let's talk about the AirPods because that's much more specific. And it's physically a very tiny product, but it's an enormous business. And every audio equipment maker that I've dealt with, either directly or that I know, they would love to have the kind of distribution reach and the dominance that AirPods as a product has. And it's not even Apple's main line of business. It's like a hobby, you know, like the main line of business is the iPhone, the laptop and other things. And you know, this is just an accessory that they make. But the accessory is an enormous business that Anybody would dream to have what I want to find out right in this conversation. And probably, I mean, part of the purpose of this podcast is how does a brand deliberately, on purpose, strategically create a hit, a cultural hit, not an.
- [28:16]
Anna Angelic
Accident, but like, well, they can't. You see, like they can't. What you can do is you can create a lot of different hits in a cob with one of them is going to become. So like Apple didn't lead with AirPods. They first built itunes, then all of a sudden they were in the music business. Then they reinvented like, oh, like unbundling from albums to songs and then they created, they closed the loop. You know what I mean? But if they were like let's create AirPods, I don't think that that conversation ever happened.
- [28:51]
Ray Nomoto
Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So just to go down this list, value where aesthetics, narrative and fandom value. I do think that it has a superior functional feature like the integration with other Apple products. But to your point, you mean that.
- [29:07]
Anna Angelic
They always connect with what is not.
- [29:09]
Ray Nomoto
Supposed to connect but like, you know, as opposed to non apple products like AirPods does do a much better job of connecting to, you know, your iPhone or your laptop and what have you. Yeah, I also, I mean this is kind of a tiny detail. Having tried other earphones, the AirPods actually do stay on in your ears more so than other products that I've, that I've tried. So I think there's some superiority. I don't necessarily think like the sound quality is that great, but it's good enough that I think people tolerate, yeah, tolerate this topic of wear or the context or the story.
- [29:49]
Anna Angelic
I don't think that applies to tech products because tech products have designed obsolete into them. They always force you to buy. Look, every two years I have to buy a new Mac because the battery dies. I think they wanted to upgrade. And also it's kind of disgusting if you buy someone else's AirPods, you know what I mean? So I think that doesn't, the where doesn't apply actually to tech products. Like look, my, my phone has wear. Look, it's cracked. But you know what? The only thing it does for me, I won't be able to swap it. I have to give it to my nephews because like I'm, I'm not going to get any good price. Like look, it's all crap. You know what I mean? So it's kind of the opposite. I, but I, I think that's for tech products.
- [30:34]
Ray Nomoto
I was thinking like things like cars, I guess you could sell Vintage cars.
- [30:39]
Anna Angelic
But you definitely. But that's like. Right. Vintage Toyota versus vintage Porsche. Porsche or Ferrari. You know what I mean? It's not the same. However, I'm gonna say one thing. If this phone was owned by, I don't know, Noel Gallagher or something, then it would be by that because it was touched by a. Like, then it would be a collectible, then it would have.
- [31:03]
Ray Nomoto
Right, right.
- [31:04]
Anna Angelic
It becomes a special thing sort of value. So not anywhere like it does. Technology problems can. If they were own or they were used, like, I don't know, like to, to deliver some crazy news or for the last phone call before someone, you know, xyz, you know.
- [31:21]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [31:21]
Anna Angelic
First call from the moon. The phone that like the first person on the moon called. I mean, commercial person.
- [31:27]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the next point. Aesthetic, I, I would push on this a bit aesthetics in terms of how good looking it is, how recognizable it is. Like, you know, in the, the Apple Airport's case, it's the white. Yeah, the white pod case and this one, you know, it's very recognizable and it was rare, especially when it first came out, you know, even before AirPods when it was the wired earphones. The iconic nature of it, I think was useful. I also do think in the case of more utility products as opposed to, I think what you call like identity product versus functionality product, like AirPods are largely, maybe 60, 70% is a functionality utility product and then maybe 30% is an identity product. Whereas like a jacket is perhaps 70%, 60%, 70% an identity product versus a utility or a functionality product. So I think the balance, like knowing the balance between what's for the buyer's or the user's identity versus functionality, I think it plays into the fact. So for instance, the Nike example that we brought up, but a different Nike example, Nike Air Max. Right. So the shoes with the air bag in the sole, the first version of Nike Air wasn't this. The airbag wasn't visible. It was inside the outsole. So the airbag was invisible. So they had to do a lot of explanation in advertising to say that there's an airbag that was invented at NASA and that's why it gives cushioning. Right. And they actually tried to sell Nike Air for seven years without that much success. But it was when the designer, Tinker Hatfield decided to make a hole in the outsole so that you can see the airbag and then the innovation became visible. Right. So I think that the point about aesthetics, one dimension that I would add is in addition to the identity of the individual that it's trying to represent, I think in a tech product or products that have utility or functionality as a big part of its feature, making innovation visible and easily understandable. I think as part of this aesthetic is a really, really key part.
- [34:12]
Anna Angelic
It is. That's what your ChatGPT example was before.
- [34:15]
Ray Nomoto
Very, very soon.
- [34:16]
Anna Angelic
Very, so very intuitive to use. It looked like a search box and.
- [34:21]
Ray Nomoto
It was, you know, you know, I, the side, side conversation. But I was talking to a startup founder maybe about a year or so ago and he started an AI company maybe about four or five years ago. And, and, and by the way, this person shall remain nameless. But he was claiming that he already had Chat GPT as a product in his company, at his company. But he says exactly. The main difference is, you know, when you use ChatGPT like you see it typing out its answers real time. That text is animating in front of your eyes. This person that I was talking to says that that was the key differentiator that made the innovation visible or part of the aesthetic of the product. And he wasn't like just displaying the, the answer all at once, but it was typing out. So I think the additional layer that I would put into this topic of, of, of of aesthetics is innovation made visible and understandable.
- [35:29]
Anna Angelic
Well, does it have to be innovation? It can be like any mechanism that can. Because you know what? Also I would also say the reason why chatgpt those little like or you know, when it's typing, it's working because that's how humans text each other. You can see three dots. So it's kind of the context was already very familiar.
- [35:47]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, the narrative part of this five part product led branding coming back to the iPod, the AirPods.
- [35:56]
Anna Angelic
I'm going to jump in really quickly because you remember the advertising of the original version, not AirPods like it was iconic advertising because it was like people, people were just silhouettes and you could see just the product. And I think back then they were not trying to create like funny, you know, like spots with people dancing. It was literally just silhouette and this iconic thing and like you wear this one thing and you're already defined as cool as. I mean we are talking back when Apple was like, you know, three steps ahead.
- [36:29]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [36:30]
Anna Angelic
Important like almost luxury gooding culture.
- [36:33]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. So I think like in the case of a, a brand like Apple, which every marketer envies, does benefit from having the history and the, the, the previous narrative, you know, leading up to it. It's not a new brand, it's, it's Existed in.
- [36:49]
Anna Angelic
And it has a crazy like, like innovator story and a comeback story. It has everything that culture responds to. Comeback story, check. Like innovator check. You know, like first computer crazy innovation 10 steps ahead of everyone else. You know what I mean? You just have so many of those and even those iconic ads from the 80s.
- [37:12]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, but why do you. Why do you think that. So get getting to the last point, the fandom aspect. I mean, Steve Job has been gone for more than 10 years, you know.
- [37:22]
Anna Angelic
And it's somewhat like, what do you think of people who still quote Steve Jobs?
- [37:27]
Ray Nomoto
It's getting tired.
- [37:29]
Anna Angelic
Getting tired. Brian and I were texting and we were like, what a psychos.
- [37:35]
Ray Nomoto
Apple is a case study that keeps my meetings.
- [37:40]
Anna Angelic
I know. Seriously, wow. All I have to say is wow.
- [37:45]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. But you know what? I think the next person to be quoted would be Sam Altoman.
- [37:49]
Anna Angelic
Most likely Elon Musk, maybe.
- [37:54]
Ray Nomoto
I think Elon Musk is politically too controversial. Has become controversial.
- [37:58]
Anna Angelic
Well, Steve Job was not political, but he was controversial.
- [38:02]
Ray Nomoto
He was controversial, but he wasn't. He wasn't. I don't think he was as. As politically motivated.
- [38:07]
Anna Angelic
Absolutely not. It was a simpler time.
- [38:09]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [38:10]
Anna Angelic
Anyway, so, yeah, going back to. But like.
- [38:12]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, so going back.
- [38:13]
Anna Angelic
So there was a movie, there was the book, Walter Isaacson. You know what I mean? There was a myth making around his brand that is going to carry it over. It's the most valuable brand in the world still.
- [38:25]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah.
- [38:26]
Anna Angelic
Number one on interbrand. You know, like so it's. But that's all that myth making that happened in the past. Whatever, 50 years, 40 years.
- [38:34]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. All right, so to wrap up our conversation, we are going to share each a key takeaway from this conversation. So, Anna, I know this is a topic that you've been deeply engaged and have been studying, but if you wanted to share one thing for the audience to take away, what would it be to be?
- [38:57]
Anna Angelic
The cultural influence can be reverse engineered and that product LED branding can also be reverse engineered. Even if we're starting a brand now and a lot of new brands are actually doing this successfully, it's possible to add a narrative, create fandom, create. Have a signature aesthetics, have a weird story, have a product value. You don't need to wait 100 years for all of that to be accumulated. It can be like Ralph invented his story, for example. Like a lot of like new brands, like even Rod again, Hailey Bieber's brand, she's like super aesthetically consistent. She has really fun tone of voice. She has lines like masses of Fans. And it's so everything is about like this vague idea of having like pitched glazed skin. So she has a pretty good idea in where she plays in terms of aesthetic landscape and brand tone. So she's probably reverse engineering most of those. Not necessarily product value. But hey, that tech accessory is super valuable. What about you, Ray?
- [40:03]
Ray Nomoto
My summary would be for a brand to have any cultural significance and relevance with the audience. I think it comes down to two things. One is the product. The other is the point of view that the brand has. The people who started the brand, the people who manage the brand, and how that point of view is represented in the product. So I think it comes down to product plus point of view because without the point of view, it just becomes a, you know, Commodity. Yeah, commodity or just an artisanal product versus a luxury product. So product and point of view. Cool.
- [40:46]
Anna Angelic
So what I'm obsessed with, I need to show you guys. It's like before me, the CEO of Abercrombie Fitch is accused of sex trafficking. I mean, talk about the brand challenge.
- [40:57]
Ray Nomoto
Oh, I did not expect that. So that's your. That's your.
- [41:02]
Anna Angelic
Well, I think from today, like you need to ask me every day what's my what? What's occupying my attention.
- [41:09]
Ray Nomoto
Wow. Because I mean, Avocado and Fitch is a brand that is making a bit of a comeback lately, isn't it?
- [41:15]
Anna Angelic
They have amazing product, they have amazing merchandising. So let's talk about that in the next episode. Let's focus on sex trafficking now.
- [41:22]
Ray Nomoto
Sounds good. So did it just come out today? Oh, wow. I wonder by the time this episode comes out where the story might be and how that might influence the.
- [41:35]
Anna Angelic
The brand is under the investigate.
- [41:38]
Ray Nomoto
That's right. That's right. Okay. My hit list this week is I randomly came across this product. I'm not a target audience, but it really caught my attention. It's a company called Terra T E R R A E. It's a new company that's only been around for about four years, since 2020 or 2021. And they make activewear, workout wear. But the thing that I was captivated by was this gym bag that came out of Asia.
- [42:18]
Anna Angelic
I designed this yoga bag and it was sold out in one hour. The all day gym bag has many pockets, high quality zips. It's durable, capable, can pack many thingsable and most importantly, pack machine washable. To me this is more than just a gym bag.
- [42:34]
Ray Nomoto
It's a yoga bag that the found. One of the founders of this company designed and apparently sold out in like 36, 48 hours.
- [42:44]
Anna Angelic
Why? Yeah, that bag that, what I just saw, that sold in 36 hours?
- [42:49]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah, like. Like in. In a day or two. I don't know how many they made. You know, it's. It's a. Probably a small, small batch and small run. But I'm curious. So this is sort of in contrast to the entire conversation that we had in that this company doesn't have any history yet. It's been around only for three or four years. Right. It's not necessarily associated with anybody super famous. It doesn't have the cultural impact, but it managed to. And then, you know, granted that it's a pretty small brand and small batch, so selling out may not be as difficult as say, other mass brands. But I'm kind of curious because this was such a product led at least productless storytelling. And I'm curious if a company like this where they might be in a year, two years, three years, and if they manage to build that myth of.
- [43:44]
Anna Angelic
A brand, they'll have to. They need to build a brand because otherwise a competitor is going to show up, build a cheaper version or maybe sturdy version or something like that. That's the thing. Like everyone would be just like, who wants to deal with brands, who wants to hire marketing departments? They're pain in the butt. You know, they would just all be making products if there was not such an easy thing to imitate. And since they're like posted themselves on Instagram, they have initial fan group, but now they need to build a mm. They need to do a collaboration, they need to do a merge, they need to do a popup experience and the marketing 101. Come on, Ray, you can do better than this.
- [44:24]
Ray Nomoto
What? All right, challenge accepted. Challenge accepted.
- [44:28]
Anna Angelic
I knew you would take it.
- [44:29]
Ray Nomoto
Yeah. Anna, this is coming out on Halloween?
- [44:34]
Anna Angelic
Yes.
- [44:34]
Ray Nomoto
Are you dressing up or you're not a dresser?
- [44:37]
Anna Angelic
I'm not. I'm not. What about you? What about you?
- [44:40]
Ray Nomoto
I. I'm not a dresser, but you know, I have kids and my youngest one, who is four, is dressing up as a race car driver, so.
- [44:49]
Anna Angelic
Oh my God.
- [44:50]
Ray Nomoto
That's my Halloween satisfaction.
- [44:51]
Anna Angelic
I know, I know. Do you know like F1 has such a cool stuff?
- [44:56]
Ray Nomoto
Yes, he does.
- [44:57]
Anna Angelic
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so jealous. You gave me an idea. It's exciting because this episode drops on Halloween and I hope that sets the tone for all the episodes to come. So thank you for listening and see everyone again in mid November.
- [45:12]
Ray Nomoto
Two weeks. All right, bye.