How to Brand Technology

Summary

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture Episode: How to Brand Technology
Release Date: March 6, 2025
Hosts: Rei Inamoto & Ana Andjelic

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Introduction: Exploring Tech Branding

In the latest episode of Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture, hosts Rei Inamoto and Ana Andjelic delve into a compelling discussion on whether technology companies can truly become brands. They explore the nuances that differentiate mere tech entities from culturally influential brands, using industry giants like Apple, Google, and Amazon as primary examples.

Apple as the Archetype of Tech Branding

Rei Inamoto opens the conversation by highlighting Apple's unique position in the tech landscape. He remarks, "companies like Apple has a stronger brand that lets people identify with the Apple brand and an Apple products versus say a Google or Microsoft or using Amazon and those" (04:16). Rei attributes Apple's brand strength to its exceptional execution and seamless customer experience.

Ana Andjelic concurs, emphasizing the foundational role of Steve Jobs in crafting Apple's brand mythology. She states, "What made Apple different is like Bill Gates doesn't have that story on that myth... it's almost like religion" (06:11). Ana argues that Apple's origin story, centered around Jobs as a visionary pirate challenging the status quo, creates an enduring myth that resonates across generations.

Execution vs. Myth: The Pillars of Branding

The hosts engage in a nuanced debate about the relative importance of execution and storytelling in building a brand. Rei focuses on Apple's meticulous execution: "they've been able to do in terms of how they show up in the world is the success of the Apple Stores and how that's become part of the experience as well" (04:20). He contends that Apple's consistent quality and curated experiences sustain its brand equity, even amidst incremental product innovations.

Conversely, Ana stresses the irreplaceable power of the brand myth. She highlights that while execution is crucial, the foundational story and emotional connection are what truly distinguish a brand: "the power of the brand is that story, that myth at, at the beginning" (09:45). Ana believes that without a compelling origin story, even excellent execution may not sustain a brand's cultural impact over time.

Beyond Apple: Branding in Other Tech Giants

The discussion shifts to other tech conglomerates like Google, Amazon, and Samsung. Rei questions whether these companies possess the same brand cache as Apple: "But do you think Amazon or Google has the same cache as a brand as Apple does?" (15:05). Ana responds by acknowledging their operational excellence but notes the absence of a unifying myth: "No, but they don't have a myth" (15:12).

A particularly interesting case emerges with Nvidia, a company traditionally known for computer graphic chips. Rei points out Nvidia's recent surge in attention: "they were just making chips... but in the recent few years... they've been able to consume so much of the attention of the business tech world" (30:00). Ana attributes this to Nvidia's timely positioning within the AI boom and an engaging founder presence, though she remains skeptical about the intentionality behind their branding success: "I think they're at the right time, at the right place, without competition" (31:19).

Embracing Characters and Mascots in Branding

A significant portion of the episode explores the emergence of characters and mascots in tech branding. Ana cites examples like Duolingo and Mailchimp, which utilize mascots to personify their brands: "they use those mascots to live in the world" (24:44). She contrasts this approach with Apple's strategy, where the brand is built around product excellence rather than character-driven storytelling.

Rei acknowledges the effectiveness of mascots but maintains that Apple's integration of product experience remains unparalleled: "the integration of every, like they do everything at a fairly high level" (18:02). The hosts agree that while mascots can enhance brand personality, they require a consistent and engaging narrative to resonate deeply with audiences.

Trends in Brand Expression: Nostalgia and Imagination

Towards the episode's conclusion, Ana discusses current trends in brand expression, emphasizing the blend of nostalgia and imagination. She observes, "thanks to AI, that the modern cultural expression is going towards more real and imaginary combining" (36:04). This trend is evident in brands like Burberry, which revitalizes classic symbols in contemporary campaigns, and the resurgence of iconic characters in new media formats.

Rei adds that this blending caters to the zeitgeist of time compression, where past and present coexist seamlessly in marketing narratives: "you have a character that is imagined character from... coming in and telling a story" (40:12). Both hosts agree that this approach taps into deeper emotional reservoirs, making brands more relatable and memorable.

Conclusion: The Future of Tech Branding

As the episode wraps up, Rei summarizes the key takeaway: "be an underdog and seize the moment" (33:09). The hosts underscore the importance of timing, storytelling, and execution in transforming a tech company into a cultural brand. They anticipate that future branding strategies will increasingly leverage nostalgia, characters, and seamless user experiences to maintain relevance in a rapidly evolving market.

Ana finalizes with a reflection on the dynamic nature of brand influence, stating, "You're taking things from our childhoods because of that time compression" (41:04). The episode concludes with an optimistic outlook on the potential for tech companies to forge deeper cultural connections through innovative branding practices.

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Notable Quotes

• Rei Inamoto [04:16]:

  "companies like Apple has a stronger brand that lets people identify with the Apple brand and an Apple products versus say a Google or Microsoft or using Amazon and those."

• Ana Andjelic [06:11]:

  "What made Apple different is like Bill Gates doesn't have that story on that myth... it's almost like religion."

• Ana Andjelic [09:45]:

  "the power of the brand is that story, that myth at, at the beginning."

• Ana Andjelic [15:12]:

  "No, but they don't have a myth."

• Rei Inamoto [18:02]:

  "the integration of every, like they do everything at a fairly high level."

• Ana Andjelic [24:44]:

  "they use those mascots to live in the world."

• Rei Inamoto [33:09]:

  "be an underdog and seize the moment."

• Ana Andjelic [36:04]:

  "thanks to AI, that the modern cultural expression is going towards more real and imaginary combining."

• Rei Inamoto [40:12]:

  "you have a character that is imagined character from... coming in and telling a story."

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Key Takeaways

• Execution and Quality: A seamless and high-quality customer experience is crucial in establishing a strong brand presence, as exemplified by Apple.

• Myth and Storytelling: Foundational myths and origin stories play a significant role in distinguishing brands and fostering emotional connections with consumers.

• Adaptive Branding: Tech companies must navigate the balance between operational excellence and compelling storytelling to remain culturally relevant.

• Character Utilization: Incorporating mascots and characters can humanize brands but requires consistent narrative integration to be effective.

• Cultural Trends: Leveraging nostalgia and imaginative storytelling aligns brands with contemporary cultural expressions, enhancing their influence.

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Tune in next week as Rei and Ana continue to unpack the intricate relationship between brands and cultural influence, uncovering the strategies that make certain companies stand out in the crowded marketplace.

Transcript

[Rei Namoto]

So what's new with me? I'm teaching a graduate course at Cornell. I'm teaching branding to a bunch of MBAs and engineering students. I just finished my class. It was like a four hour lecture slash workshop. I'm glad to be off of that. What's new with you?

[Anna Angelic]

There's like a lot of things happening at the same time. I planned my Australia trip and stopping by Tokyo, but also have a book promo here in New York on April 3, again hosted by List, but I'm also going to have another one at Shopify, most likely. Oh, wow. So there is a lot of, you know, parallel tracking and a lot of meetings. And it's good. Those meetings are outside of fashion, which is even better. They're in entertainment and other stuff and so on. This year really felt like, you know, fast paced. Do you feel the same way or no?

[Rei Namoto]

He feels like, you know, we just welcome 2025 and then Bruno or it's already March. Welcome to hitmakers. How Brands Influence Culture. Where every other week we explore cultural influence and how brands can create it.

[Anna Angelic]

I'm Anna Angelic. I'm a brand executive and author and I have PhD in sociology. And we are joined by our producer Vanya Arsenalov, who every two weeks makes sure that we look and sound great.

[Rei Namoto]

And I'm Rei Namoto. I'm a creative entrepreneur and a founding partner of a global innovation firm called Ayanco, based in New York, Tokyo and Singapore.

[Anna Angelic]

In this episode we are going to talk about whether tech companies can become brands. I believe so, but let's unpack this topic. Ray, you go first.

[Rei Namoto]

We've floated this topic off and on in the past several weeks or so. And there are certain tech brands that are very much in the tech sector. And then, you know, I mean, there are different types of tech companies that are B2C, B2B or both. But you know, in the past 10, 15 years or so, the top companies, the top five to seven most influential companies in the world are one way or another, tech companies. Starting with the likes of Google, Apple, Microsoft, Meta, and then more recently in the last few years, you know, companies like Nvidia, right? And they essentially, I think they call the Magnificent Seven. They take up an enormous portion of the market, not just in the US but around the world. So they obviously have influence one way or another. But at the same, I mean, they're companies like Apple that I've been a fanboy of for a long time. I've been a Mac user since I graduated. Even in college, I think And I've sort of flirted with Android and non Mac products but I've always come back to it. And Apple is sort of the symbolic tech brand that has managed to become a brand. But I question the same kind of whether I or people have the same kind of connection or identity with a tech brand with let's say Google or with Amazon or so forth. So the natural question was what makes a tech company or tech brand a tech tech product, a brand? I mean every, everything, you know, every company is a brand one way or another. But there's like a degree of brand in each of the companies. And I would argue that companies like a company like Apple has a stronger brand that lets people identify with the Apple brand and an Apple products versus say a Google or Microsoft or using Amazon and those.

[Anna Angelic]

Why do you think that is in your opinion? Why do you think that is?

[Rei Namoto]

Say in the past, right, Apple was a very active marketer and they spent a lot of effort and money on marketing. And then more recently I think they do. But I think they've always been very focused on the quality of the product and the quality of the overall experience. Not just the physical aspect of it, but the software, the user experience, the UI ux, the exponential aspect of it. And then I think another thing that they've been, they've managed to do in terms of how they show up in the world is the success of the Apple Stores and how that's become part of the experience as well. You know, Apple Store people might not be going there every week but I mean every Apple Store is always filled with customers. Some of them might be buying products and some of them might be just hanging out. So I think they've been able to not only focus on the quality of the individual products but also being able to and being disciplined in curating a seamless experience from one product to the next product, all the way to say the store. So it feels very cohesive the whole brand experience. Whereas I think a lot of other companies that cohesion I don't see with let's say like with say Microsoft or Google to some extent in terms of like you know, using tools. But they don't necessarily have the physical presence, the same level of physical presence, that presence that Apple has. Yeah. So I think that the curation, curation of customer touch points, quality and the.

[Anna Angelic]

Seamlessness, I think that's great. But that's all execution, Ray, you know what I mean? That's like, I think what Apple is a myth. It's a myth, it's a Myth of the founder who is a pirate. Don't join the army, be a pirate.

[Rei Namoto]

Do you think, do you think that they still.

[Anna Angelic]

Thousand percent, thousand percent. Because it's kind of like a guy who is dropping acid, who is kicked out of his own company. He's quoted to this day, the meat of the founder. This is like literally like the stores where I say it's tactics. Yeah, this is all great, but that's table stakes. That's. That, that's imitable. Like Samsung imitated those stores and so on. Originally, however, no one had that insanity in terms of a founder who is like, do you want to sell like sugar water? You want to change the world? You know, identify with, with, with found like with meat making figures. So it's almost, it was almost really like religion. Now I'm not talking about now, I'm talking a generation ago. Like. No, no.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Execution. Absolutely. That's a great brand. Execution. No, to like the packaging, the smell, the like the average. Yeah, that's all. Other brands can imitate that. And they do imitate that.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

What made Apple different is like Bill Gates doesn't have that story on that myth.

[Rei Namoto]

Right. I agree in the, like my generation, our generation, and maybe slightly younger, but our generation grew up with that myth. And seeing Steve Jobs, you know, come back to Apple and then rebuild what was a dying company, dying brand, and you know, between 1999, 2000ish, all the way till when he passed away for a decade and a half or so, I think he was instrumental in not only driving the business by creating the myth and he was the myth. Right. So I agree with you, like with my gen, like with our generation, but like say somebody who's, you know, 25 years old, who didn't grow up with that. Do you think they buy into Apple because of the myth?

[Anna Angelic]

It doesn't need to be conscious. All brands are stories. So in a sense, they, they are encountering Steve Jobs, they're encountering his quotes, they're encountering the design. Of course, if TikTok generation, they know they're buying Apple computers. They know it's your perception that one brand is cooler than the other. Why? You don't know?

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, why are kids still buying Apple more than Samsung in the us no idea. It can be the myth, but it's certainly not because the store looks great and it's certainly not because of the 1984 advertising.

[Rei Namoto]

Oh no, definitely not. Definitely not.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, you know what I mean? It's kind of like all of that sort of helps but again, that's all execution. And if Apple tomorrow really change that and look, what they do think is that that myth needs to be perpetuated and so on. Apple hasn't innovated in forever. They make money on us. Losing your AirPods, you know that your case costs like a hundred bucks, you know, and you know, like, then you know. So in a sense they're not, they're not the same company. However, it takes like more than one generation for that myth to die down. Because look at like car brands, for example, is you still, when you HEAR Ford Motor Co. Or if you, when you still hear Coca Cola, even though you don't drink Coca Cola at all, it means something.

[Rei Namoto]

It means something.

[Anna Angelic]

Power of the brand. And that's all I'm trying to say is the power of the brand is that story, that myth at, at the beginning. Because no one remembers Coca Cola like heartwarming ads from 20 years ago. But it's like one thing builds upon the other in culture.

[Rei Namoto]

Do you think going back to the tech, tech, you know, tech company being a brand, Apple, other than the myth of the founder, what do you think is making Apple such a strong brand then?

[Anna Angelic]

But it's not just the myth of the founder is that positioning, which is going against the grain. Being a pirate, that's an outcast brand. And people root for outcast brand brands. These are the. Those that disrupt the status quo. So when you look at the brand archetypes, you have those who are again, pirates who are fighting against the established rules and norms and state of affairs.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

And people ruled by that. That was Apple's original positioning. For whatever reason, they're still coasting on it 20 years later.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, because I mean, you know, the feet different ad that came out 25 years ago and millions of people may have watched it back then, but millions if not billions of people have no idea that was the positioning. Right. But what do you think is keeping that myth alive one way or another?

[Anna Angelic]

But I don't know if anything is keeping the myth alive. I don't think so. I think what myth lives through that original execution? That's what I'm saying is like, Donny, I've left that revolutionary design, the revolutionary interface, the ux, everything you talked about, that's from generation ago, that's from 25 years ago. Now they're making money now they're coasting on that. There has not been a significant innovation in Apple since. I don't know, you tell me when.

[Rei Namoto]

Apple Watch, Apple Watch probably was the.

[Anna Angelic]

Last I don't even remember. That is, at least it's more than 10 years. It's probably 15 years. Not enough. It's a short time. It's, you know, so they'll be able to coast for a really long time. And it's not like that innovation happened anywhere else. That groundbreaking innovation, it was like Microsoft and Apple had personal computers. Then Steve Jobs revolutionized the mobile devices in a sense, not so much with iPad, more with an iPhone. And that was the groundbreaking innovation that is completely reorganized how people use. So that's number one. Nothing happened since then, no matter where from Huawei, Samsung, forget it. They have better cameras. Okay, great. You know what I mean? So now it's incremental innovation. That innovation is also what the brand is, that comes from that pirate positioning.

[Rei Namoto]

I see what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying to an extent, especially for people who have seen the aspect of Apple that was the pirate, the think different challenger positioning that they had almost 25 years ago. What I would question is, and I guess what I was saying earlier about the execution of the brand and what's kept the brand at that level of brand equity is that like they've been able to execute at a pretty high level, you know, their quality. I mean, to be honest, the quality of the products have slipped a little bit. And you know, like, like you said, the innovation, we haven't seen groundbreaking innovation in the past 10, 15 years, if not more, but the execution of that and the curation of the product experience has been at a high level, at a high quality that I think the execution has kind of carried the brand over the past 10 years because I don't think there's been any new myth that's created.

[Anna Angelic]

No, but that's helpful. But I'm saying they're coasting and however they want to coast. They haven't changed Apple stores, they haven't changed anything. So I think we are agreeing. I don't understand your point.

[Rei Namoto]

No, because I say you said, oh, it's just execution. But I, I, what I'm saying is.

[Anna Angelic]

That there is no ingenuity in that execution. It used to be when it was groundbreaking and new, but now it's just incremental innovation. IPhone with the camera stores look the same they looked 15 years ago. There is no, there is no innovation there. So I don't, like, I don't understand why you, like, it's.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, but what, what I'm saying, I think what I'm saying is that the level of execution is Quite high is very high even though it's sequential and incremental. Like there haven't been new groundbreaking innovation, but they are coasting at a quality that's quite high to differentiate. So I don't think, I don't. I guess what I'm just really is that I don't think other brands are able to execute at that level. And that's what keeps.

[Anna Angelic]

I don't agree. Look at Google, look at Amazon, look at Samsung.

[Rei Namoto]

But do you think. Okay, okay, okay. So on that point, on that point though, like do you think Amazon or Google has the same cache as a brand as Apple does?

[Anna Angelic]

No, but they don't have a mid. That's what I'm telling you. But Amazon is delivering everything today or tomorrow. The customer convenience is their core brand promise. They're doing it impeccably.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah, so, so I guess again, again I tried to unpack this topic. Right. Like how can a brand, how can a tech company become a brand? So you're saying that Apple is a strong brand because of the myth and the previous innovation.

[Anna Angelic]

I say differentiated brand. It's a, it's a differentiated brand because of the myth. Strength of its brand is a number of factors. Its sales, its products is experience. It's so on. It's a trillion dollar brand.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's the most value brand.

[Anna Angelic]

What I'm saying, I don't know if people are buying Apple as they did before because it was different than Microsoft. If you bought, if you bought a Mac product, you signal that you're more creative than suits. So that meant something. That was the strength of the brand. Now you buy those products out of habit, convenience. Everyone else has it, so on. I'm not buying these products because I just don't want to deal with like comparing iPhone like phones or whatever. I don't want to deal. I don't know if some other computer is better. They're probably the same at this point.

[Rei Namoto]

Oh, okay. So you're buying just out of convenience, not because you identify.

[Anna Angelic]

No, exactly. Like I cannot like if some. I don't think it's cool. It's just there, it's utility.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, but again like you're buying it purely out of convenience, not because Apple product is. Or Apple Laptop is better than Microsoft.

[Anna Angelic]

I am buying it because I'm used to buy. I'm being a loyal customer.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. And then like the, but like again like the execution of the user experience hasn't been so bad that it hasn't made you switch to something else.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, it hasn't been bad, but it hasn't been great. I mean it's been like I don't care about it, you know, that's not my, like it's not going to decide, oh that's definitely. I'm going to buy it because I'm going to get it the same afternoon. That's not my decision making factor. Yeah, decision making factories. All my stuff is on icloud. I'm locked in. It's costs are too high at this point. Like when I buy new stuff it's all automatic. Like all my data is there. Why would they deal with anything else? Yeah, that's how they're making money today. And I do think that it's nice they have the genius. But I don't disagree that the execution is important. But I'm trying to distinguish what is easy to imitate, what it's not easy to imitate.

[Rei Namoto]

Date I, I think where our disagreement might be that I don't think execution is actually that easy to.

[Anna Angelic]

You don't think that Genie's bar can be replicated?

[Rei Namoto]

No, what I'm, what I, I think it can be like E Points but like the, the, the holistic, you know, integration of every, like they do everything at a fairly high level and I.

[Anna Angelic]

Don'T see Europe in Samsung stores is.

[Rei Namoto]

The same but again I'm not talking about just the store, I'm talking about the store.

[Anna Angelic]

The UI storage is great, the interface phones are great. Samsung is more popular in Europe than iPhone. So that's what I'm saying. It's also like you do have that seamlessness on that level as well. People who love Android, they just have the same lock in and same switching cost dilemma as we do here.

[Rei Namoto]

So I mean I've actually switched to a Samsung phone. This is five or six years ago just as a way to experiment is this a better product or better experience? And I found, and again this was, you know, five or six years ago, so it's been been a little while but I found the experience to be so disjointed and so frustrating and you know, maybe because I was so used to that, the Apple universe that I, that, that I came back and on top of that I would say, and this might sound shallow but you know, little things like green bubble versus the blue bubble.

[Anna Angelic]

You're a designer, you're a design.

[Rei Namoto]

I know but so I guess where I'm disagreeing with you is that, I mean at least from what I'm gathering in interview what you're saying that the executions are easy to imitate. But me you cannot, is what you're saying.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, the origin story. You can't.

[Rei Namoto]

The origin story.

[Anna Angelic]

Every brand has an origin story or doesn't. And some of them hit culture. Some of them really resonate emotionally with people and with those archetypes that we love in terms of narratives and storytelling. And then I don't think like, look, obviously Apple creates a fantastic ecosystem. I'm not going to argue with that. I'm just saying that if they had, if, if, if they had that without Steve Jobs, without the origin story, without be a part of, without insane innovation. No, in the past.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Seen interactive interface.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Before iPhone. I mean, I'm exaggerating. Of course they were. But in terms of like that completely. They killed feature phones completely.

[Rei Namoto]

Yes.

[Anna Angelic]

And that is not happen. That's what builds the brand. And then wonderful execution obviously is important. If this was. If like even Apple computers, they last two years now tops. Because battery dies because that's designed obsolescence. They want you to keep buying. Even that is not enough to piss me off. What I'm saying, it's not ideal. You change like, look, my phone is all like, you know, like you, you change your phones every year, you change. That's not. They want you to buy more. So like in a, in a sense, this is not the perfect product. This is not a superior product.

[Rei Namoto]

So on that, on that point though, like, are you using Apple products purely, purely out of avoiding the pain of switching to a different ecosystem or is there another reason, you know, perception reason that you think you're influenced to hang on to iPhone?

[Anna Angelic]

So I don't think it will like if I live here, if I lived in Europe, I would probably do Samsung or something like it's, it's kind of like the cameras are really amazing on and because they're everywhere and they advertise to you. So I'm exposed to like market being marketed to here. I simply don't pay attention because it, it. The other thing, it's not important to me once it's not important to you. Having an iPhone was a status symbol.

[Rei Namoto]

Yes.

[Anna Angelic]

Versus, you know, in the first generation set. And then having a new iPhone was the status symbol symbol and they're having a unique drop in a specific color metallic or gold or whatnot was a status symbol. But now we are past all of that. Now it's utility. I don't buy it as a status symbol. I buy it as utility. No one is going to ask me, oh, you have a new iPhone.

[Rei Namoto]

No.

[Anna Angelic]

Anyone? Not me. I don't think that. No, anyone is asking anyone. Oh, you have a new iPhone.

[Rei Namoto]

Oh, because I mean, like, you know, we had like up, up to iPhone 16. There are 16 different versions and then, you know, 16 this and 16 that. So like, there's probably like, you know, 50 different versions of the iPhone. So a new iPhone, I mean, everybody has a new iPhone one way or another.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, right, but that's what I'm saying. That's what you asked me. Like, does that influence my thinking? No, honestly, it's just pure convenience because I know when I buy a new one, like, I'll just switch it up, I'll connect it and it's going to everything, it's going to be the same. I'm not going to think about it.

[Rei Namoto]

Do you think then projecting out, let's say 10 years from now that if Apple became a pure utility player, doesn't that make them more vulnerable in terms of a Samsung or somebody else taking. Not completely taking over, but at least taking away their business?

[Anna Angelic]

I think that already happened.

[Rei Namoto]

You think so? To some extent, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

I mean, with Samsung, with Huawei, there was a moment, probably not 10 years, but at least five years or something, when they cleaned the house completely and then they were like, oh, Samsung made it, that Huawei made it. And you know, in different markets, Apple is not number one. Like, iPhone is not number one, or Apple products are not number one. Yeah, yeah, that's already. That already happened.

[Rei Namoto]

What company, what, what tech company do you think outside of, say, Apple or Samsung, what tech company do you think has a strong brand?

[Anna Angelic]

Well, I do think there are like a lot of smaller ones. And then we can talk about. Because I recently wrote about mascots and toys. So you see, like, remember back in the day there was Ask Jeeves search engine. Remember that? Oh my God, it was almost chatgpt before chatgpt was like invented. I mean, some people didn't use it because it was a horrible search engine because you combine like human curation, you know, and then Google was like, get out of the way our algorithm better than yours, you know, so. But that was kind of like a way to, to kind of humanize the brand. So I do think like that mailchimp again, they, they're like those brands that are trying to like duolingo. You have mailchimp. You can. You have like slack to an extent in a. You have hootsuite. You know, like, they have like those little mascots that assume the light.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, you're not.

[Anna Angelic]

And they use those mascots to live in the world. But then in a sense that that brand, character, brand image is separate from the utility. However, by the emotional association. It. This is very different than what you said about how Apple built the brand through experience. They're building a brand, they are trying to tell a story through a character. And the product is almost nothing to do with that character.

[Rei Namoto]

Right, right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

You know, which is very different. You're saying. But the products are amazing. I like little green button. I like the store experience. I like integration here. It doesn't matter. Here is all about, oh, the character is funny.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. Almost. The humor, you know, fantasy of the.

[Anna Angelic]

Story, telling the story through a character and the world is built around that character and tone of voice and personality. It's completely different way of brand building.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. Do is an interesting one. I mean, we talked about this, you know, I think a couple episodes ago because it's one of the tech. I mean, it is a tech brand, but in the past couple years or so they've been able to create, I wouldn't say necessarily a dent, but at least people pay attention to them, you know, beyond the tactical, practical, learning aspect of a language. Yeah. And then the character is a useful device to sort of, you know, have fun with it, I guess. Yeah. So you mentioned Duolingo. You mentioned the Mailchimp from 25 years ago.

[Anna Angelic]

Mailchimp. But they're still going strong. They're still, you know, into that. There is also Slack, but Slack has more or less. They do have like UX and lipo design kind of details and ton of voice. But again, this is all kind of you penetrate culture. Like for example, what Duolingo did with their ads with the super wallet, with the TikTok videos through that humor of the character, you know, and that's how you compete. But like, I'll give you another example. OpenAI had this super bowl ad and so vague. And that's a mistake because users of AI are all. The promise of AI is also super vague right now. In particular user scenarios. You know, people are not sure, you know, like, where is it going to take them, how to use it. There, you know, there is, there's specific use scenarios, but the promise is much bigger than that. And when you have a vague product, vague experience and a vague ad doesn't help you.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, it was very vague. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was quite, quite lofty. It wasn't specific and it wasn't. I mean, I know the people who works on it, so I want to be respectful, but yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

You really think?

[Rei Namoto]

No, no, no. Again, I want to be respectful to the people that.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, I'm just saying, like, forget about the actual product. I'm just saying, like, you have to have a very specific promise because again, if you go to the execution, what's you, you know, the consistent experience.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

You have a certain expectation, you know, so if that expectation, if you're setting vague expectations, then delivery is, you know, the same.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. Do you think tools and platforms like Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, are those brands or are we just using them just because of convenience and sheer scale?

[Anna Angelic]

Well, Meta is definitely like a sort of villain right now. And it's been for a long time, but it's been a long time due to execution of hate speech, of lack of moderation in comments, of like an algorithm of basically popping up, like creating bubbles, polarization and so on. So that's again, the user experience, the execution of the promise connect all the people in the world. Whatever his promise was, was horrible. Is horrible. It's not good for, for human society, for human brain, for interaction, psychology and so on. So in that sense you have like evil brands, you know, but again, it's, it's, it's, it's based on, on the actual experience of the brand and then on the founder being like, who he is, you know.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah. I guess his myth is, you know, is a lot of masculine energy, A.

[Anna Angelic]

Lot of masculine energy these days, you know, but he never had like, what his founding story as told in Social Network was that his story stole from like. That's your founding story. What else? Where do you go from there?

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, it's not, it's not a very good myth. I mean, it's a myth, but it's not a good myth to have.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, it's, you know, and, but there is not. So you're not like this, this memorable character. It's not a myth, really. You're not a mythical figure. People are going to forget about you. Like, you know.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. Like, in a sense, speaking of a character, a tech brand character, the one that I wouldn't have expected this company to have this much slouch is Nvidia. Yeah. Because Nvidia, like, I mean, they've been around for 20 years or something and they were just making chips, these computer graphic chips, and people don't care about chips. But in the recent few years, really the last four years, three, four years, they've been able to consume so much of the attention of the business tech world. And part of it is the founder being quite visible. You know, he's Got a look. You know, he wears a leather jacket and you know, he's probably not as charismatic or as known as Elon Musk or even Jeff Bezos, but he's one of the more visible CEOs who by the way, seems to be decent. You know, I don't know about him much about him, but I think that his presence is definitely more visible than a lot of other tech CEOs. And for something as mundane and as boring as a computer chip or Nvidia, and even the name of the company is kind of hard to pronounce. And you know, you don't really know how to, how to read it when you first see it, but it's, it's interesting how they've been able to gain so much attention in the past couple years.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, I don't think that's because of chips. I think it's because of the official intelligence and again, myth making around this is the craps that are artificial intelligence.

[Rei Namoto]

No, no, that's what I'm saying. It's very little to do with the functionality or the feature of the chips that they're making, but it's. They've been able to ride the AI conversation. They used to be a computer graphics chip maker, and then when AI came, they've been able to position that they were the, that they became the AI chip maker, what used to be a computer graphics chip maker. And on top of that, I think having a CEO, that's who seems to be more like.

[Anna Angelic]

No, I just think they're at the right time, at the right place, without competition. That's it. Because the narrative around artificial intelligence is such. And no one else. I mean, there's stories again, a story of an underdog who becomes a top dog because intel, the biggest chip maker in the world.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Upset by a pirate again. Or by an outlaw. By an underdog. And that is again, the narrative that resonates really well. Who is this Nvidia company? You know what I mean?

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

And then it helps to have a good founder.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. And I think in their case, I think they were probably lucky. I don't think they were strategic about, about it.

[Anna Angelic]

That's what I'm saying. Right place, right time, right narrative, you know, like whatever they're stopping.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. And it just so happens that the other chip maker, you know, they were the king and they just didn't get into the field. And then Nvidia just ate that piece of the pie. And that pie became so much bigger than the rest of the pie.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, right but again, there was that underdog that recognized the opportunity and intel. There's, like always David versus Goliath story. And that's why the recent Chinese one was also. People love the underdog stories. People root for underdogs.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, whenever you have one, count on people, supporting them is just the way it is.

[Rei Namoto]

Just to summarize it, the story of an underdog is a powerful device, whether it's a computer brand or chip brand or fashion brand or whatever, or this Chinese brand company that nobody had heard of, but it was one company, one small AI company that came out of nowhere and that they had good enough product, at least for the short term, that it was good enough to capture enough audience to. I mean, they were, for several weeks, they were the number one downloading app in the App Store. So be an underdog and seize the moment. That would be my summary.

[Anna Angelic]

Cool. All right, what are your hits?

[Rei Namoto]

My hit. So completely unrelated to the conversation that we just had two things, and this is very sort of industry insider speak. So, you know, half of the people who might listen to this podcast might not know what I'm talking about. And it's very within the context of the creative advertising industry. So bbdo, one of the longstanding traditional agencies, just recently repositioned themselves, or at least the way they present themselves. They are still an advertising agency, but they came up with this positioning that says do big things. And they sort of had a visual campaign to go along with it. They changed their website, they created these assets for social media. And I didn't think much of it, to be completely honest, at first. But what I'm sort of intrigued by is I've never seen an ad agency employee, a group of ad agency employees, being enthusiastic about the rebrand of their company to the extent that the BDO people might be right now. And like, I saw around me and I, you know, because I'm in that sector, I see quite a bit of it. And it's the first time in a long time that there's quite a bit of hype around it. Now, you know, it's maybe a hype. It may be constant, but it was unusual that an agency repositioning effort. I heard as much as I did about this one in the recent past.

[Anna Angelic]

I didn't hear a damn thing about. I didn't think about bbt. No.

[Rei Namoto]

Again, like, I think it's a very sort of like, secluded thing, you know, in my bubble. Yeah. And, you know, like, now we all live in different bubbles. Right. And, you know, you have your bubble I have my bubble and those bubbles might not intersect with each other, but. Yeah, I guess. I guess sort of the larger point.

[Anna Angelic]

Interesting. Why is it interesting that an agency reposition itself at a time where agencies are dying and they need to do something to survive? They're getting scaled down. So I think this is just like they're like hyping themselves up. I don't. Why is that interesting to you? I don't understand.

[Rei Namoto]

No, so it was interesting exactly for that reason. Meaning that I didn't think much of it when I saw it, but I. I saw people talking about it unexpectedly.

[Anna Angelic]

People who work at BBDO or others around others.

[Rei Namoto]

Others as well, at least in my bubble. And is that because, you know, because some, you know, people are resonating with it, or is it because it's kind of like a little blip in. To your point, you know, in an industry that's struggling and, you know, trying to, you know, is it an underdog story?

[Anna Angelic]

Well, I'm really happy for them because there is so little fun things happening in advertising industry that if this is exciting, then it was.

[Rei Namoto]

It was unusual. Like. Like at this time I found it unusual.

[Anna Angelic]

My hit would be that I've seen like a lot more. Maybe I'm biased, but like on Monday, there was a Burberry, an iconic brand that brought back its symbol of a night, and they literally used it in their campaign. They use it on their fashion show. So what I'm thinking is, thanks to AI, that the modern cultural expression is going towards more real and imaginary combining. And that is exactly the result of sort of bubbles and of the fact that, like, I don't think that anymore the time, you know, how in the time, there is future, there is present, there is past, and there is always progress. And I just think that this gigantic flattening there is chronological flattening with archive reissues, with like bringing back movie sequels, movie reboots, movie sort of franchises, and then also redoing a lot of things from the past really upsets that chronology. So all of a sudden you have, I don't know, Ghostbusters from like two years ago is the Ghostbusters from 40 years ago. They're in the same sort of level.

[Rei Namoto]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Or what you have in terms of. Give me an example. What would be an example of a movie that's going to be this summer, that is a reboot or of. Of something that happened before? Sequel, prequel. No matter.

[Rei Namoto]

Gosh, I can't think of any specific.

[Anna Angelic]

One, but I'm sure, see, you're sure there are many. There are either equals or sequels or. So in that sense, that's kind of that insanity that I think that we're all operating not because of nostalgia or anything else. That's just the marketing ploy at this point. But I think it's the creative expression just uses the much wider range of walls in a sense that you can have, like, you take stuff from imagination. Like, you know, like the night. The night is. Is very connected. What we talked about, like Duolingo mascot. You have a Burberry night jostling night from 50 years ago that's all of a sudden came to life and then people taking photo with it. Photos with it at the fashion show. You have it in the ad. So I think it's a lot of that kind of like Lego Lego sets for adults. I think it's a lot of that imagination, that game, that play that is now getting more into. Into our storytelling, you know, So I. I know.

[Rei Namoto]

I know the knights mascot or the knight symbol, the recent sort of incarnation or the revival of the. The night or animating, you know, making a mood, you know, that. That didn't intersect into my world or into my bubble. I haven't seen it. So I'll definitely look it up, but.

[Anna Angelic]

Look it up. But you've seen Elmo at and on. You've seen that. Yeah, yeah, but that's the same thing. All of a sudden you have a character that is imagined character from.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Coming in and telling a story and like, oh, soft touch. Be soft on yourself. Yeah. You don't know how that's the same thing. Forget about your like.

[Rei Namoto]

But are you talking about. Are you talking about your. You. Are you talking about, like, something that exists in different times coexisting in the same time? Or are you talking about something that's imaginary versus something that's real coexisting? You're talking about both.

[Anna Angelic]

The operating system is imaginary. So now Federer is sitting with the, like, Elmo and Elmo podcast, and Elmo goes and tells runners, why don't you go easy on yourselves? It's cartoon character from childhood that, like. And I. I just think it's kind of like showing a trend towards mascots and imaginary things being influencers because they can't be canceled. They don't get old. Like.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

That is the reason of that cultural expression is widening up. They're taking things from our childhoods because of that time compression.

[Rei Namoto]

I wonder if that will.

[Anna Angelic]

We're gonna see more of that. That's what I. Yeah.

[Rei Namoto]

I. Yeah. I wonder if that trend will expand beyond. Beyond what we see now. Okay, I'll pay attention to that. Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

It doesn't need to be. Forget about fashion. But, like, I think there's super bowl ad and they really, like, double down on Elmo because Elmo Wanter went on a podcast. Like, they.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

And I don't think they're gonna let that one really go. And I think we're gonna see more because, you see, like, we had the Barbie movie we are having. I don't know. I think 13 new movies are in development from Mattel. So I think toys are among us because with not real anything.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

So pay attention. You'll see more of that.

[Rei Namoto]

Yeah. Characters and mascots or toys and mascots in real world. Imaginary friends.

[Anna Angelic]

Imagine the friends, like Duolingo, you know, like, they're probably going to bring it in the real world with, like, AI or not AI. I don't know.

[Rei Namoto]

Probably. Cool.

[Anna Angelic]

All right, thanks, everyone, for listening, and thanks, Ray, for being such an amazing sparring partner.

[Rei Namoto]

That's right. Even though we have disagreements, I love.

[Anna Angelic]

It if you have to. It would be so boring without. I mean, I don't know anyone I would rather have disagreements with because I always learn something.

[Rei Namoto]

I appreciate that. That means a lot. All right, have a good weekend.

[Anna Angelic]

Have a good weekend, everyone.

[Rei Namoto]

Sa.