Post Meh-ification

Summary

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
Episode: Post Meh-ification
Release Date: February 6, 2025

*Hosts:

• Ana Andjelic – Author of Hit Makers, How Brands Influence Culture, Brand Executive, and Curator of the "Sociology of Business" newsletter.
• Reena Moto – Creative Entrepreneur and Founding Partner of Ionco, a global innovation firm based in New York, Tokyo, and Singapore.*

---

Overview

In the "Post Meh-ification" episode of Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture, hosts Ana Andjelic and Reena Moto delve into the phenomenon of cultural homogenization driven by algorithms and mimicry. They explore how this trend impacts brands, innovation, and the broader cultural landscape. Through insightful discussions and real-world examples, they unpack the challenges and opportunities that arise when brands strive to influence culture in an increasingly standardized digital environment.

---

Cultural Homogenization and Algorithmic Influence

The episode opens with Reena summarizing a thought-provoking article by Beth Coast titled "Sociology of Business," which examines how algorithms are fostering a homogenized culture by promoting content that performs well, leading to templatized and average outputs across various platforms (04:51 Reena Moto). Reena articulates, “everything starts to become, I guess in a way standardized, but it just becomes meh” (05:10 Reena Moto), highlighting the stagnation in creativity resulting from algorithm-driven content creation.

Ana concurs, emphasizing that this is not a novel issue but rather an amplification of inherent human behaviors influenced by technology. She states, “technology makes everything flat. Combine all the content together and makes it global. And that's why we have this lack of innovation or creativity at such a large scale” (09:04 Anna Andjelic). Ana draws parallels to historical technological impacts, such as the printing press, which reshaped societal structures and cultural dissemination.

---

Impact on Brands: Nike and Burberry Case Studies

The conversation pivots to notable brand case studies illustrating the repercussions of catering excessively to algorithmic preferences. Reena discusses Nike's recent decline, attributing it to the overproduction of popular shoe models like the "black and white dunks" and "panda dunks." This strategy initially boosted sales but ultimately alienated sneaker enthusiasts who valued exclusivity, resulting in a 30% drop in Nike’s stock price within six months (04:51 Reena Moto).

Ana adds historical context by comparing this to Burberry’s experience in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Burberry’s mass production of their iconic scarves initially led to widespread popularity but eventually associated the brand with subcultures they deemed "uncool," forcing Burberry to reverse the trend to restore its aspirational image (13:37 Anna Andjelic).

---

Shift to Niche Markets and Innovation

Both hosts agree that as mainstream markets become saturated and homogenized, innovation increasingly resides within niche markets. Ana highlights that niches allow for greater creativity and unexpected trends, stating, “when you have formulas, I do think that people rebel and people want the unexpected, the weird, the difference” (10:55 Anna Andjelic). Reena echoes this sentiment, suggesting that true innovation often requires brands to "disrupt themselves before someone else disrupts you" (25:10 Reena Moto).

They discuss how brands like Nintendo have successfully navigated this by regularly reinventing their gameplay, contrasting with companies like Sony, which focus on iterative improvements rather than groundbreaking changes (26:06 Reena Moto). Ana underscores the difficulty for large corporations to maintain a startup mentality necessary for continual innovation, noting the pressure from shareholders for immediate results often stifles long-term creative endeavors (28:40 Anna Andjelic).

---

Opportunities for Disruption

Reena identifies potential areas ripe for disruption, particularly in the smartphone industry. She observes that despite numerous iterations, smartphones have seen minimal revolutionary changes in form factor or functionality over the past 15 years. Reena predicts that advancements in voice interface technology and the development of smart glasses could represent the next significant leaps (33:08 Reena Moto).

Ana agrees, highlighting the resurgence of analog experiences as a counterbalance to digital homogenization. She suggests that embracing analog and local talents can foster unique cultural products that stand out in a saturated market (36:25 Anna Andjelic).

---

Hit List Segment

In the Hit List segment, Reena and Ana share their current interests and recommendations:

• Deep Seek App: Reena praises Deep Seek for its innovative approach that showcases the thinking process before providing answers, likening its "wow factor" to that of ChatGPT. She attributes its App Store success to its ability to capture the general public’s imagination rather than just technological efficiency (38:43 Reena Moto).

  "The product innovation factor, the wow factor of the product is it shows the thinking process before it gives you an answer. And it's one of those things that I read it before and I didn't understand it until I used it, but when I used it I was like, wow, this feels like magic."
  — Reena Moto (39:00)

• Burberry’s Resurgence: Ana notes Burberry’s comeback by refocusing on core products like scarves and trench coats, which has led to better-than-expected financial results and a restored brand image (41:44 Anna Andjelic).

• Books and TV Shows:

  • "Winners Take All" by Anand Giri Dharadas: Reena reflects on the book’s predictions and their realization in the political landscape with Trump’s presidency and the influence of tech billionaires (42:35 Reena Moto).
  • "Attention" by Siren Cole: Ana recommends this book, emphasizing the importance of managing attention in the modern era and the resurgence of analog activities as a response to digital overload (44:01 Anna Andjelic).
  • TV Show Recommendation: Ana suggests "Slow Horses", praising its engaging storytelling and performance by Gary Oldman (45:07 Anna Andjelic).

---

Conclusion

In "Post Meh-ification," Ana Andjelic and Reena Moto provide a comprehensive analysis of how algorithm-driven content creation is leading to cultural homogenization, posing significant challenges for brands striving to influence culture authentically. Through compelling case studies and thoughtful discussions, they illuminate the necessity for brands to embrace niche markets and foster genuine innovation to stand out in a saturated and standardized digital landscape. The episode underscores the delicate balance between leveraging technology for cultural influence and maintaining the uniqueness that drives true brand success.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “everything starts to become, I guess in a way standardized, but it just becomes meh.”
  — Reena Moto (05:10)

• “technology makes everything flat. Combine all the content together and makes it global. And that's why we have this lack of innovation or creativity at such a large scale.”
  — Anna Andjelic (09:04)

• “We are going to innovate for them. They're going to tell us what they want.”
  — Anna Andjelic (38:20)

• “The product innovation factor, the wow factor of the product is it shows the thinking process before it gives you an answer. And it's one of those things that I read it before and I didn't understand it until I used it, but when I used it I was like, wow, this feels like magic.”
  — Reena Moto (39:00)

---

For more insightful discussions on how brands shape and are shaped by culture, subscribe to Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Reena Moto]

You're in Europe.

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah, I was in Europe. I went on the book launch in London.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Like in Fashion Week. And then I left to go skiing to St. Moritz.

[Reena Moto]

Oh, you went to St. Moritz?

[Anna Angelic]

I did, I did. No way.

[Reena Moto]

You know, St. Moritz, it's dear and near to my heart because I went to high school in Switzerland and every winter we would go to St. Moritz for two weeks. Oh, man, I'm jealous.

[Anna Angelic]

This is amazing. You've been up to.

[Reena Moto]

I was in Japan until last week. Yeah, I came back middle of last week. I was there for about a week, week plus. And yeah, I'm back. Welcome to Hitmakers, How Brands Influence Culture, where every other week we explore culture influence and how brands created.

[Anna Angelic]

I'm Anna Angelic and I'm author of the book of the same name, Hit Makers, How Brands Influence Culture but also the Business of Aspiration. And I'm also a brand executive and a weekly newsletter, the Sociology of Business. Glad to have you here. Welcome.

[Reena Moto]

And I'm Reena Moto. I am a creative entrepreneur and I'm a founding partner of a global innovation firm called Ionco, based in New York, Tokyo and Singapore.

[Anna Angelic]

And if you like this conversation, make sure that you read the rest of the previous seven episodes in this season one. And big thanks to our producer Vanya, who takes care of us and our sound every other week.

[Reena Moto]

You just got back from London where you are promoting your book and you were touring Europe and then I was at the same time I was in Japan. So, you know, I might be a little bit more gen like than you might be.

[Anna Angelic]

I don't know. I think you definitely are. Asian jet lag. There is no such thing as Asian jet lag. It's like a beast. It's a beast.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. It is a beast.

[Anna Angelic]

It is. I came back last night and I had to say London was fantastic and big thanks to Kathy Chitterkorn, who is now with CNN Style, previously with Financial Times, and to list for hosting it. And then I was off to Copenhagen Fashion Week. And then again, big congrats to their team for putting together a sustainable fashion alternative and showing us that what brands can. Can really do when sustainability is at their core. And then a mini break in St. Moritz for skiing.

[Reena Moto]

So that's amazing.

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah. And what have you been doing in Japan, Ray?

[Reena Moto]

I was there. I was there for work. Pretty much exclusively for work. I was in Japan in November last year and I hadn't been back, so I, you know, it had been quite a few months and I needed to see some of the clients that we work with. Catch up with my team. You know, what was. What was really good was, well, depending on how you look at it, but it was like negative, you know, five degrees here. And then Japan was the opposite. It was. Yeah, it was very warm. I was surprised. I mean, I'm wearing a scarf right now in my office in New York, but, like, Japan was very warm. It was like spring weather the week that I was there.

[Anna Angelic]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Reena Moto]

It's probably not a good thing because it's just a sign of global warming.

[Anna Angelic]

You know what, it's really funny that you say that because in. In Swiss Alps, where I was in St. Moritz, it was so much snow. Minus 10 Celsius, which is like, I don't know, 20. And it was like minus 6, minus 8. And it never warmed up, even when it was sunny, to. For the snow to melt.

[Reena Moto]

Oh, wow, that's good. That's good. Good condition to skiing.

[Anna Angelic]

Last year was challenging. This year was great.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. Well, I'm jealous. I used to. I. I went to high school in Switzerland, so I'm. I'm jealous.

[Anna Angelic]

You need to come next time. Are you skier?

[Reena Moto]

I'm a big time skier. Yeah. I'm a big time skier. I mean, I haven't skied in a couple years, but yeah, I mean, yeah, big time, big time.

[Anna Angelic]

Well, we have to go there. Yeah.

[Reena Moto]

All right. Okay. So, Anna, what are we talking about?

[Anna Angelic]

We're talking about Bad Bentley's guest coast on Sociology of Business. I met Beth in person, at least event, two weeks ago, and she has her own brand consultancy. And I saw that she mentioned me on her substack and I read it and I'm like, hey, do you want me to, like, depose this? And it really hit the nerve. So I think with the audience. There were a lot of comments, there were a lot of likes, and I thought it timely for you and I to talk about what happens when algorithm and kind of like mimicry as is. Like, how do you create by design the cultural output that becomes the same and how that influences companies and brands and organizations and innovation in general.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, basically. Just let me. Let me summarize the way that I understood the article. And then, you know, everybody, as Anna mentioned, it's an article that Tana's friend wrote. It's a quick read. It's a great read about how homogenic the culture. Culture is becoming because of algorithms and because algorithms encourage users to like certain things and encourage creators to create content that would quote unquote perform well and they become somewhat templatized. They use the same tunes, same rhythm, same type of content, even if it's in, you know, different, different interest topics, that everything start to become, I guess in a way standardized, but it just becomes meh. Right? Yeah. And then starting with the digital world, that is where you are consuming content that kind of bleeds into the real world, whether it's fashion or other things that people like, tend to cater to the algorithm so that everything starts to sort of become average. And maybe, you know, the average might be a little bit higher than what it used to be. But you know, if everything is kind of the same, then nothing really, really stands out. The first thought that I started to think about was, is this a cycle that we see? You know, have we go, have we gone through this cycle in the past? And when digital, the Internet started to be a thing that people could use, the speed at which information spreads got really, really quick. And also because of digital technology, you could copy things more easily than in the past. And then that is now very exaggerated and very heightened so that you can copy things more easily, you can follow quote, unquote best practices and then you can create content that caters to what algorithm thinks we like.

[Anna Angelic]

I'm really glad that you brought that up because I also wanted to say that this is not new and that at first, I mean, if you take a step back, it's inherent in human behavior that we are influenced by others. So in a sense there is always that social cohesion that's really important. So we look to what others do just to simplify decision making process. You can't figure out every morning the world anew, you know. So in a sense we do need to imitate each other to keep the society going, to keep that social cohesion going, but also to simplify decision making process. That's like human behavior overall. That imitation is just like way we learn, you know, so that's number one. But then when you really start having technology in the mix, when you think about like how different technology started with the printing press, gave rise to like literally the, the church pamphlets, you know, and then the nation states and national identity and so on. And it's not really random that Andy Warhol magazine, Interview magazine started when there was a tape, tape recorder, Ascent was invited, you could record it, you know, the interview and reproduce it and so on. So without going too like wide, I do think that there was always. Technology always shapes how we imitate each other and what we really imitate. So now in A sense, as you said, is it a psychic, always on steroids. And it's always like, even I think from YouTube from 20 years ago, people like figuring out what works, what doesn't work, in first 10, 20 seconds, what are you going to say? And then of course, Spotify and so on. So I think that you're right in a sense that it's technology makes everything flat. Combine all the content together and makes it global. And that's why we have this lack of innovation or creativity at such a large scale.

[Reena Moto]

I'm trying to think again, just thinking back to when, you know, when the Internet started to become popular and when things became more flat, as you mentioned. What are the triggers or what are the elements that can break the habit, so to speak. Yeah. And things that. I don't necessarily like the word viral just because, you know, now everything is kind of viral and every, every creator is trying to make something viral by copying certain templates and formulas that, that other people have figured out about Instagram or, you know, TikTok or what, what have you. But I'm wondering what are the things that, what are the factors that can break the, the habit?

[Anna Angelic]

That's what I'm all like. For me, again, because this is not new. It's almost the backdrop. It's almost like this is the situation. So how are you innovating? How are you creative in that context? That's number one. Number two is in the context that everything is copy of everything else. When you have formulas, I do think that people rebel and people want the unexpected, the weird, the difference, something that is going to stand out again. So it's not like, oh, this is a dire situation. Everything is the same. Yes, of course. But it creates a context for new kinds of creativity that are unexpected. And so, so that is what is, what is the most relevant for me, what I'm excited in this conversation to hear your opinion is what do you think what is unexpected now? Because it is. People want to draw. People need something that they. It's going to catch them from the left field.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. This just reminded me of a topic that's related and as we talk about this and as we try to unpack, what are the things that can break the habit? In the last year to two years or so, one of the biggest brand stories that we've heard was Nike kind of going, going down, Nike stock dropping. Right. And the, the main failure of Nike as a company and as a cultural brand was that they catered too much to the quote unquote algorithm and they Started like literally printing the same shoe, the, the dunks, the black and white dunks, the panda, panda dunks. And everybody started to wear that all of a sudden. And over the course of a year, yeah, they're know commerce, their sales went up but then the real sneaker heads, the enthusiasts, the, the real fans started, you know, to use, to use awards, rebel against it. And then in like literally six month they lost 30% of their stock price. What I, I, I was, I was you know, reading the story and then I was having a conversation with somebody else and they talked about having gone through sort of a similar path in the recent past but also in I think like in the late 90s and 2000ish. And what happened and this happened in Japan and UK around the same time but happened for slightly, happened with slightly different audiences. So in the late 90s and early 2000s when, that's when Burberry was scaling up very rapidly and one of the hit items that they had was a barberry scarf with that, you know, traditional, the famous pattern and they mass produced it and they lower the price, they lower the price just enough that non wealthy people could buy it. And what happened in Japan? What So you know, it was like probably like you know, $150 for scarf which say like a college student or even high school students could ask their parents to buy. So in the late 90s, 2000ish, what happened in Japan was that the barber scarf became massively popular with high school girls. Right. And the business for about 18 months was killing it because it was selling like literally like hotcakes. Right. The same thing happened in the UK. But did you know who bought them in the UK?

[Anna Angelic]

I know 12. Yes. You know 12. You don't want to be a. So like I don't want to say that because you know, everyone has, you know, their own taste.

[Reena Moto]

Yes, yes.

[Anna Angelic]

But very Berry became associated with something uncool because it was very, it became popular with subcultures that they didn't want to be associated with. I guess. Yeah, not aspirational.

[Reena Moto]

But these were specifically, specifically you said that. But specifically like working class football fans and these fans, working class fans started to wear Burberry scarves. And I didn't know about it, I didn't know about it until I read it recently. But this is like 20 years ago.

[Anna Angelic]

Because that was the undoing of Burberry in a sense that they had to reverse the trend. Not that they don't want to be associated with, but they didn't want to be associated Specifically with that subculture.

[Reena Moto]

Right, right, right, right. We talked about this, I think a couple of episodes ago about the perils of popularity. You know, when something becomes massively popular, the wave might be, you know, you might be riding high on the wave for a little while, but then crashing of the wave could be quite bad and in some cases catastrophic. Like what happened to Nike in, you know, recently for three, four years their business kept going up and up and up until to your point, somebody started to rebel. Hey, this is, this is bullshit. Like Nike is making mass producing rare exclusive sneakers. So it's no longer rare or exclusive or special and it just loses that shine.

[Anna Angelic]

It does. And you know what? I'm glad we are talking about it because then drives to the structure of markets, of cultural markets. So.

[Reena Moto]

Okay, yeah, unpack that.

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah. The cultural markets used to be something that when you can be surprised and you have new trends and you know, like brands change how people dress, the music they listen to and so on. But now they're very me, they're very midway, very nothing. It's like incremental innovation. Then that means there is no. You're not going to go to mass market to find anything new. Because if you want innovation, if you want to be surprised, you need to go to niche. And by the very design that niche is never going to become mass because it's surprising, because it's unexpected, because it's anti algorithm.

[Reena Moto]

Right.

[Anna Angelic]

So that is the nature of culture changed so much and this is again not new that we have a lot of those different niches. But I think precisely, precisely because of algorithmic popularity and on TikTok anyone can become famous because of the algorithm. In theory.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

I think we are seeing in the resale markets, in the music markets, something that is very IRL in real life. And that very default is very niche because. Cause you get to, you get to experience something that you don't experience online. It's almost like matrix where you have, you know, blue pill, red pill situation. And you know, I want to see the reality like that is. And I do like that it's that how that culture is restructuring.

[Reena Moto]

Right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

So in a sense if you had an IKEA or what like ink it on. On running.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Which is. They've been around since 2010. The first time the, the, now the, the founder Olivier there was like, there was his original partner, George sent him a pair of Nike Pegasus.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

With like hose, pieces of hose. And, and Olivier was like, I can't run him this. I have to wait until like the sun goes down, so it's dark, so no one sees me. That's not like, literally the story is like, I can't be caught. Like dollars, they're small. Like, and the fact that that was unexpected, that was different. That was not how shoes in 2010 were made. They were made shoes. They were, you know, that they didn't do like so much layering and they didn't do so much cushioning and so on. So basically. But here, and I don't know, 100, 200 meters in them and they're like, oh my God, these are so different.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

And. But you need to have the balls to be like, we are. They were refused by all major. We have our innovation team. Thank you so much. You're the best. You know, Adidas, Puma saw them, but they were like, no, we are in minimalist design and so on. So none of the big ones wanted that.

[Reena Moto]

Right.

[Anna Angelic]

They're like, you know what, you're just going to make it ourselves, you know, like. And in a sense that is. It's against the grain.

[Reena Moto]

Right?

[Anna Angelic]

Like you're going in a saturated market. The big players said, no, it doesn't look like anything you've seen that's that unexpected. That's that rebellion. And look at, look at them now.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're public. They. They're killing it. They're killing it.

[Anna Angelic]

Publicity traded company that they had Roger Federer put his Instagram the shoes and like, can you make a tennis? And they're like, hey, we can send you a gift. And then Roger was like, well, can we do something together? You know what I mean?

[Reena Moto]

Right, right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

And it was like. But then again, goes back to what we talked about before, which is product led branding. And they were like, my mission is to create the best running shoe in the world. Let's just make the best product in the world. They now move into training, into hiking, in tennis and so on. But their motivation was never, let's, let's make some money, you know?

[Reena Moto]

Right, right, right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

Look at other brands that are basically like, oh, we have a celebrity. Let's make a good enough product that everyone is familiar with. We are just going to pass to the celebrity on it. We are going to do DTC Playbook and like run with it. Those guys were like, no, now when we, when we hear that something is impossible, we're going to do it. And on the top of that, now the next challenge is how to create carbon neutral. Not carbon neutral by buying the carbon credits, but like, no, how do you recycle you're buying material, basically, pair of soles. So you send us that material, we turn it into, like, sole and cushioning and so on, and you get a new pair. So I do think that, like, that's a great story because it shows that there is a different way.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Not just restructuring of cultural market, but also of your product market.

[Reena Moto]

I remember in the last recording we. The Hit list segment that we had, and I mentioned about Squid Game.

[Anna Angelic]

Yes.

[Reena Moto]

Right. And I was like, man, you know, Anna just killed my pleasure. You know, that was like, my. My pleasure at night. So you. By the way, you owe me a Netflix. Netflix show. You have to recommend me a Netflix show to follow.

[Anna Angelic]

I'm happy to. I'm happy to. So wait, wait, wait. Did you. Did you finish?

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, so. So, yes, because, like, when. When? Two weeks ago. I was only into, like, the end of episode two, and there's like eight episodes, and not to give it away for the audience, you know what? What? Like, I wanted to, like, I liked it, I think, enough to probably watch the next one. Yeah. But I was highly disappointed at the end.

[Anna Angelic]

What did I tell you?

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, like what?

[Anna Angelic]

No, no, but I didn't tell you. You're gonna be disappointed. I said, well, keep watching. It's entertaining enough.

[Reena Moto]

It's entertaining enough. Yes.

[Anna Angelic]

Not new. Because when we watched it first time around, our. We were surprised. That's. That.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. When they first. I'm. I'm. I'm speculating, but I think they. Because it was the first time, you know, they just wanted to make a show that was different and that was surprising and unexpected. Yeah. There was a cliffhanger at the end of the first season. But, like, if you watch the whole series, the whole season, like, that season was satisfying. It was very satisfying. Whereas, again, not to give it away too much, season two, like, I wanted. I. Again, I liked it enough and I will watch the next season. But it was quite obvious that they were doing. They were making this show to make money.

[Anna Angelic]

It was. And I mean, I don't know if they wanted to make money. I don't. I mean, there is always that, obviously.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, there's always that.

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah, there is always. But they. They had the same formula and they innovated and they're like, just like Nike. They're like, shit, this works so well. Yeah, let's do it again.

[Reena Moto]

I would say, to be fair, though, I would say, like, I did, like, certain aspects of this season that tapped into a different side of human psychology. Slightly different, but not, you know, to your Point, not different enough, you know, but a side of psychology that was, that wasn't quite portrayed in the first scene. And you know, I'm kind of geeking out of details of the, of the story, but again, I liked it enough. But like you can, you can smell the business behind it.

[Anna Angelic]

You know, I think that's like. Why do you think that Hollywood in past 10 years was all about sequels?

[Reena Moto]

Right, right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

Fast and furious 19, mission impossible 17, you know what I mean? Avengers. Everything is a franchise and everything is a sequel in a sense because of that. It's. So that's why I don't want to blame technology because it's human nature to technology in a way. Because you know how like it's always like, oh, nobody knows anything. Like you always want you with cultural products, they're super unpredictable because they depend on our taste and how we influence each other. So when the mood is right, anyone can start something.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. And I do, I do think that in the entertainment business and you know, we're not necessarily focusing on entertainment, but just on that tangent a bit, there are certain entertainment franchises that I think have done sequel relatively well. So like the Batman series and you know, they have had ups and downs.

[Anna Angelic]

Who is better than Godfather 1, for example? It's kind of, it's not by default, but when you think about it, that was the time of retaking the 70s in Hollywood and so on. Where I was going with my examples is that we literally. They want entertainment, fashion, all music, art, culture, design, cultural industries. They want certainty. And that's why you always go towards what worked in the past. You believe it's going to work in the future if you just tweak it a little bit.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Because then you're certain and it works until it doesn't. It really in fashion, in music, it works until it doesn't. But you don't get anything risk taking, unexpected and so on.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. What do you think some of the things that, whether in, you know, fashion, tech, business, entertainment, that have broken that habit recently. So like, you know, you talk about on. On was a company that broke the habit of the running industry and came out with a shoe that nobody wanted and then look what happened. Right. Do you. Can you think of any other examples that. That managed to break that habit?

[Anna Angelic]

Honestly, I think like when you look at like niche magazines like Limited Run very. It's all about coffee culture or tennis or XYZ or you know, like, I don't know, film or something. Like look at a 24 for example.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah, So I think they started as a very niche, first distributor and then a producer themselves and they were supporting those movies that no one else will pick up because they're too weird, too different to xyz. But they created entire brand around that. So I would say a 24 is a great example of something. But again, it's their niche in a sense that, I mean they're in, they're big niche like. But I think that's why I said the niches are really. Because you have that also in fashion, you have that in design. Just don't expect those to go mainstream.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah. I think on that note, companies that do well in innovating and coming up with new products are the ones that the companies that try to disrupt themselves as opposed to be disrupted. Correct, Right, Yeah. So I'm just thinking, say in gaming like Sony for instance, you know, they have PlayStation. Yeah, PlayStation is an innovative product, but the gameplay hasn't. The way you use the console, the way you use the, the controller hasn't evolved in the past 25 years. The same thing, but it's better spec every time, you know, every couple years when they release it. And you know, they're like PlayStation like 6 or whatever right now. But it's the feature upgrade that you get with each iteration. Whereas, you know, I mentioned about Nintendo, I think in the last episode, where what I appreciate and respect about them is that every five to seven, eight years or so they try to invent and reinvent the gameplay from scratch. And that's how like Nintendo Wii was born, you know, 15 years ago. That's how Nintendo Switch was born seven years ago and so forth. And you know, there's nintendo nintendo switch 2 now that I think is doing relatively well, but probably not as well as the first one because it's a sequel and it wasn't. It was. It's better in terms of performance and features and whatnot. But it's not different and it's not distinct enough from other things that are. That's. That's out there already.

[Anna Angelic]

I love that. And honestly, Ray, I think there is, there is reality of business that is basically like, you know, of course you should disrupt yourself before someone else disrupts you. That means that you stay in that startup mentality all the time. And that means that sometimes you don't make your numbers and that means that some, that people are not gonna, that you're gonna turn off certain audiences. And it's kind of like the opposite of that. Growth, growth, growth, growth. Bigger, better, more, more people, bigger Market, sort of chunk of the market, bigger penetration, more often and so on. So in a sense, if you want to remain risk taker, then you have to say you need to be family owned and you need to, you can't be like private equity, they want immediate results.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

CEOs, they have shareholders to respond, you know, so it's very hard to justify. In a sense. That's what we talked about before when we said like, look, when I go to retail brands, like there were a lot of people who are creative, there are a lot of people. But this, that's not rewarded. Efficiency is rewarded.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

And performance, market performance is rewarded. So in that sense, look at Apple, top brand in the world, trillion dollar brand. So on how they make money, they're banking on you losing those tiny ipods and like, like seriously, I paid hundred dollars for a new, like that's how they make money these days.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah. No, like what, those dongles that you have to connect your new laptop with? Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Or like they haven't created anything new since when.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, they haven't. I mean there was a book a couple years ago, I forget the name of the book, but it was created critiquing Apple for the lack of creativity and innovation. You know. Yeah, they've, you know, triple, they, they've grown like crazy since Steve Jobs passing away, you know, more than a decade ago. But when you, when you look at the, the product innovation, you know, I mean, it's easy for me to critique.

[Anna Angelic]

You know, I think 14, 15, 16, 16 now, like I don't even know which number I have. I have like the one from last year.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

You know what I mean? And I don't even know which number that is. I lost track and I'm not buying it because I'm like, oh my God, I must have it. You remember like at the beginning when you're like your mind was blown, that you could like anyway the interface and so on. So now I'm just buying it. Or this one cracked or it doesn't. Now they're like the way they're making money is that Your, your, your MacBook Airs, the battery doesn't last long.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. And it may be, maybe, you know, the market's mature enough. But you know, particularly when it comes to say like the smartphone market, it may be mature enough for something else to come along finally. You know, it's been what, 15 years with the same, 15 plus years with the same form factor.

[Anna Angelic]

But then look at the, at the same time, look at those glasses, like meta Glasses. Snapchat glasses. Yeah, they're not exactly a success.

[Reena Moto]

I was, you know, so I don't know if you remember one of my predictions for 2025. Yeah, I think some type of glasses, smart glasses. It may not be the next iPhone, but I think it will gain enough traction to be a. I think that the, the Ray Ban. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but like the Ray Ban meta glasses are a surprise hit for them. You know, it's a better hit than Oculus that they had. Yeah, I, I think, I think it will, it will happen in the next. Oh, you know, hopefully in the Next. In, in 2025.

[Anna Angelic]

I hope so too. But you know, this reminds me that not all innovation is good. Innovation in a. That's going to be popular. When you said Oculus, for example, no one is going to walk around with that.

[Reena Moto]

No, no.

[Anna Angelic]

Like so in a sense that was like the conditions for true innovation. Like photography, like film, like iPhone, like, I don't know, Nike Air Jordans at the beginning. You know, that's how it's a, It's a fine interplay. What happens with the right mind. Organizational mindset, right organizational capabilities, right production capabilities, but also like reading the culture, being plugged in the culture. Because think about it. Nike used to pay every game that Michael Jordan played dead. And blacks, because it was an NBA, allowed only white and black.

[Reena Moto]

Right, Right, right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

They paid fine, penalty for every game. Like you can't justify that when you're IPO company. You know what I mean? Is that rebellion mindset, the pirate mindset. At the end of the day when you're like, you know what? We don't care. We are just going to. You just wear them. It's a marketing expense.

[Reena Moto]

So just to. To wrap up this portion of the conversation, where do you think there's an opportunity, like a specific opportunity for disruption or that rebellion? Like if you, if you had to, like if you were creating a new product or if you're creating a new idea, where do you think you would. You would bet? Okay, this is where I think we can disrupt.

[Anna Angelic]

Like honestly, it's really hard to say. Only because the industries have become so big and so winner takes all.

[Reena Moto]

Yes.

[Anna Angelic]

You have a few dominant players across the industries. Look at music, look at design, look at art, look at movies, look at like any cultural industry. So I would say while I don't know where what is unexpectedly new, I would say look at niches go small was. I think new things happen all the time. We just don't know about because they're staying among the local, the niche, the private.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. What do you think in terms of the disruption opportunity? You know, I asked this question that I wasn't ready to answer myself. I think this is a big industry. Well, the earlier point that I was making, the smartphone industry, you know, because for the past 15 to almost 20 years, we haven't seen a drastic leap in terms of either the form factor or the software factor. It's been the iteration of the previous version getting better and better and better and better. And we haven't seen the iPhone of whatever the next thing is just yet. And when Apple announced Vision Pro two years ago, I think everybody was hoping that it would be like the iPhone moment for the smartphones, but it wasn't. It quite wasn't. And to my earlier point, some kind of eyewear, not a VR headset, like a goggle that you helmet that you put on, but a lighter, a pair of glasses with specific feature embedded into a pair of glasses. I think that's an opportunity that's already starting to happen. That's one fairly niche territory that I can see another. And I'm thinking more in terms of technology, but I think, like voice as interface, I think, is the next territory that it's just at the level, at the point where computers and software are smart enough to be able to understand the conversations in a natural way. It's not quite there. Like, you know, like I try to talk to my phone or dictate into my phone, and it's just still pretty, pretty, pretty aggravating. It's frustrating because it just doesn't, you know, accurately record what I say and transcribe, but I think it's getting there in the next six to 12 months or so. Yeah. So. And when that happens, I think voice as interface can change certain things quite drastically.

[Anna Angelic]

I don't disagree. I was just looking at the more macro level, but I really like that you brought it home. I just think anything that is human creativity, that is lo fi offline, it's not new, but, you know, like couple of years ago, there was a lot of those, like lo fi backyard concerts.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

What kind of innovation they came up with, what kind of sound? You know, because Spotify is never gonna bubble it up.

[Reena Moto]

No, no.

[Anna Angelic]

You know, so that's why I'm kind of like, oh, I really want to know. But we are sort of going back to the previous era when it took forever for information, to travel from one side of the world, traveled with people, and I love that in A way.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, I think. I think Analog is. It might be making a kind of comeback.

[Anna Angelic]

Only that it's been making a comeback for a while now, but I think it's going to become global, like Analog, you know.

[Reena Moto]

Oh, interesting.

[Anna Angelic]

I will have to go to Japan to bring what's cool in New York.

[Reena Moto]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Anna Angelic]

In the sense of that. Meh. You know, like, middle road. We know about that, but what do you think?

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, cool. Well, so, you know, just to summarize this, I would say my summary of this conversation would be disrupt yourself before you're getting disrupted.

[Anna Angelic]

So many companies say that and want to do that, but they can't, like.

[Reena Moto]

Very true, though.

[Anna Angelic]

Just the reality of the business is there is no such thing as disruption budget.

[Reena Moto]

That's unfortunate, isn't it? But it's a reason. It is a reality. It's a reality.

[Anna Angelic]

That's what I'm saying. Winner takes all. That's like how the market consolidated themselves. So you have to really stay really small, you know, that. Own guys, before we go into Hit list, own guys, they were like, oh, we want to be a $10 million business. I mean, now they're like, don't value that. 7 billion, you know.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Kind of their. They were like, no, we want to serve around it. That was before.

[Reena Moto]

Right, right, right. They just had a very specific audience that they wanted to serve, and it was. That was what they wanted. And it happens that that is kind.

[Anna Angelic]

Of big enough mindset when it's kind of, you know what? Let's just serve our audience. And we are doing that for entrepreneurship, and we are going to innovate for them. They're going to tell us what they want.

[Reena Moto]

All right, shall we move to our hit list?

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah, you go first.

[Reena Moto]

Do you have a list?

[Anna Angelic]

I never have a list, Ray.

[Reena Moto]

You never have a list?

[Anna Angelic]

Gazillion things that I think are going to be great for Hit List, and then I never write them down. And I forget really.

[Reena Moto]

Okay. I had a couple. Well, so the first one is it's old news by now, but I was thinking about this a week and a half ago. I'm quite fascinated by what's. What Deep Deep Seek is doing.

[Anna Angelic]

Oh, yeah, no, I read about it and.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. Have you tried it?

[Anna Angelic]

I have not tried it, but I also have thoughts about it, so go ahead.

[Reena Moto]

Okay. So I read about it for a few days and I didn't quite understand why it was such a big deal.

[Anna Angelic]

Okay.

[Reena Moto]

And, you know, like, New York Times was saying this, and, you know, Wall Street Journal was saying that and TechCrunch was saying this, and all these reasons were completely logical, but they didn't quite explain to me why the app became number one in the App Store. And for something to be number one in the App Store, it's, that's, it's just not the tech Bros and the analysts talking about it like it has to capture the imagination of the general public who by the way, doesn't really care about the efficiency of the code or the cost effectiveness of the development costs and things like that. I was like, what made this app so popular among the general public? And I think it's the same reason that made ChatGPT so popular two years ago. And if you use Deep Seek, the product innovation factor, the wow factor of the product is it shows the thinking process before it gives you an answer. And it's one of those things that I read it before and I didn't understand it until I used it, but when I used it I was like, wow, this feels like magic. And I bet that was the, the element, very tiny, specific element, but it was magical enough that capture the imagination of the general public.

[Anna Angelic]

Interesting. And you know why it's relevant for me is because Deep Seq did that after the ban of Nvidia chips so that they have access to the newer generations. And for that, for me, that was why it was relevant is that for the first time ever, something creative came out of China because Chinese are really good at doing, taking things and doing them better.

[Reena Moto]

Making. Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

And so they had to like, they really understood how Nvidia chips work and they managed to create Deep Seek even though they didn't have access to the latest generation or.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

So that is, I think it's just a moment in time because they're not going to catch up and so on. But I, for me that was relevant in a sense. That was like, you know what? It was all local. All local. Local talent, not people.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

Trained in the US it was all. And they figured out how they can make something competitive with much inferior technology, so to speak.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

So that's. I agree with you. And my hit is that speaking of Burberry.

[Reena Moto]

Okay.

[Anna Angelic]

Is actually that they're making a comeback, believe it or not, because they're focusing on scarves and whether or not. And the outdoors. So they're doing amazing in the U.S. oh, interesting. They released their results and they were much better than they expected. They expected the loss of, I don't know, minus 12. They expected bigger loss than they had which means they're crawling back. Their product strategy is working. They're focusing on trench coats and scarves.

[Reena Moto]

Interesting, interesting.

[Anna Angelic]

So see, I have hits. It's all. They're all there. I just don't.

[Reena Moto]

They're there. Yeah, yeah. I had actually one more, and it's something that I thought about while. While we were talking and you used the phrase winner takes all. And there's actually a book that came out maybe about five, six years ago. It's. It's not winner takes all. It's winners take all.

[Anna Angelic]

Okay.

[Reena Moto]

The subtitle is the Elite Charade of Changing the World. And it's written by a journalist named Anant Giri Daharadas. I believe he's the Indian American journalist. I became a fan of him maybe about, I don't know, 10 years ago, and I started to sort of, you know, read his writing and I read this book. Yeah, like six, seven years ago. It came out in 2018. And basically he. What he describes in that book manifested itself in 2024, 2025, when Trump got thrown into the. The President's position and all these tech billionaires surrounding him with paychecks. Yeah. So he wrote this about seven, eight years ago, and now it's becoming reality. And I'm wondering, like, okay, that was sort of like the pattern that was repeating and rhyming and it's kind of a good. I haven't reread. I started to reread this just because it was interesting reading it seven years ago and then seeing it unfold in front of our eyes right now.

[Anna Angelic]

I'm glad that you brought it up. I'll definitely take a look. And then take a look. My hit is Siren Cole.

[Reena Moto]

Oh, you know.

[Anna Angelic]

Yeah, I know. So like. Yeah, so I think, like, it's very related to everything we talked about in this episode.

[Reena Moto]

Attention.

[Anna Angelic]

Attention. Yeah, yeah, attention in how we manage it. And I think at some point, because attention is such a limited resource, I think we are just going to take it back. We are just going to. Because you see the novelty of technology, it's something that we need to pay attention to. Like, oh, my God. I always go back to that example, the first banner ad that he had like 90% click through or what? Because, you know, it was like, people are like, oh, my God, what is this? And it's kind of in psychology that is this habituation. And I think, like, we are getting habituated to this influx of information. And I see that with, with Gen Z, how they literally taking their attention back and reading books and you know, like going back to analog again.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anna Angelic]

So I would recommend Siren's Call as a book.

[Reena Moto]

Yeah, I'm actually in the middle of my listening to it.

[Anna Angelic]

Do you like it?

[Reena Moto]

Yeah. So far, so good. Yeah. I mean, I'm only into my first chapter or two. Okay, don't tell me the ending.

[Anna Angelic]

I learned my lesson.

[Reena Moto]

I know. Yeah. So next. Next time you have to tell me a Netflix show to. To watch.

[Anna Angelic]

Can you watch Bad Sisters? Season one was amazing. Well, then.

[Reena Moto]

Okay. All right.

[Anna Angelic]

One and two Slow Horses.

[Reena Moto]

Okay.

[Anna Angelic]

Have you watched Slow Horses?

[Reena Moto]

No. No.

[Anna Angelic]

Dude, you have to. So, all right, now they're on season four or something. So you have a lot catching with Gary Oldman. First, second, third. Excellent.

[Reena Moto]

Oh, wow.

[Anna Angelic]

You know, I have some tricks in my sleeve.

[Reena Moto]

All right, all right. You. You made up for my squid Game Massacre. All right, so I think that's it for this episode and this is it for hitmakers. See you in two weeks.

[Anna Angelic]

See you in two weeks. And share this like this. We love ratings. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, you can find us everywhere. Share with those who you think you like and please let us know what you. Thank you very much.

[Reena Moto]

All right, bye.