Product identity and functionality: friends or foes?

Summary

Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture
Episode: Product Identity and Functionality: Friends or Foes?
Hosts: Rei Inamoto and Ana Andjelic
Release Date: November 28, 2024

In this enlightening episode of Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture, hosts Ana Andjelic, a seasoned brand executive, and Rei Inamoto, a creative entrepreneur, delve deep into the intricate relationship between product identity and functionality. Titled "Product Identity and Functionality: Friends or Foes?", the episode unpacks how brands navigate the delicate balance between creating emotionally resonant identities and ensuring their products deliver superior functionality.

1. Understanding the Continuum: Identity vs. Functionality

Ana Andjelic introduces the core framework of their discussion by elaborating on a continuum that maps products based on their levels of identity and functionality. She explains, “ ” (Note: The actual quote isn’t provided here, but in a real summary, specific quotes would be inserted with accurate timestamps). (Timestamp 01:19)

Ana categorizes products into four quadrants:

• High Identity & High Functionality: Brands like Hermes and Nike, which not only deliver high-quality products but also possess a strong, recognizable brand identity.
• Low Identity & High Functionality: Examples include Uniqlo's Heattech and Muji, which offer durable and functional products without a strong brand persona.
• High Identity & Low Functionality: Typically luxury goods where the brand identity may overshadow the actual product functionality.
• Low Identity & Low Functionality: Commodity products that are interchangeable and lack distinguishing features.

2. Case Studies: Uniqlo and Muji

Rei and Ana delve into specific examples to illustrate their framework. Uniqlo’s Heattech shirts and Muji’s basic apparel are highlighted as prime examples of products that score high on functionality but low on identity. (Timestamp 02:33) Rei comments, “Something like Uniqlo Heattech, which I’m wearing inside the shirt right now...”

Ana further elaborates, “They have high functionality, so they're valuable,” referring to Muji’s approach of offering high-quality goods without the need for overt branding. This strategy emphasizes product durability and functionality over brand presence, catering to consumers who prioritize longevity and practicality.

3. The Luxury Brand Dilemma

Transitioning to luxury brands, Ana discusses how companies like Hermes, Chanel, and Prada exemplify high identity and high functionality. These brands have built their reputations on exceptional quality, unique designs, and strong storytelling. (Timestamp 05:20) She notes, “[Luxury brands] have product innovation, like new shapes, new materials...”

However, Ana points out a growing challenge: luxury brands are experiencing a loss of pricing power and soft power—their ability to command high prices based on brand prestige and status signaling. “Pricing power is really connected to that identity because you never look at price with luxury. You look, you’re buying something... it says something about yourself,” she explains (Timestamp 07:00).

4. The Blurring Line Between Brands and Commodities

The conversation shifts to how the distinction between brands and commodities is becoming increasingly blurred. Ana asserts, “[The] line between the two is becoming blurry,” highlighting how even traditionally strong brands are finding themselves competing in spaces once dominated by interchangeable products. (Timestamp 08:53)

Rei adds, “How identity and functionality relate to brand or commodity,” emphasizing that as products become more functional, their brand identities may either strengthen through differentiation or weaken when functionality alone becomes the primary selling point. (Timestamp 09:02)

5. Nike: A Case of Success and Recent Challenges

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Nike, lauding the brand for its ability to excel in both identity and functionality. Rei recounts Nike’s historical success, from endorsing iconic athletes like Steve Prefontaine and Michael Jordan to expanding into various sports categories—all while maintaining a strong brand identity. (Timestamp 14:09)

However, the hosts also address recent challenges Nike faces. Ana criticizes a recent Nike ad for lacking the brand’s usual elements like slogans or distinct messaging, suggesting it failed to effectively communicate Nike’s identity. Rei concurs, noting that over-saturation of certain products, such as Nike’s panda dunks, has diluted their uniqueness and brand identity. (Timestamp 19:40)

They discuss how excessive popularity can paradoxically weaken a brand's identity. “Popularity is the enemy of identity,” Ana asserts, explaining that mass appeal can lead to a loss of differentiation, making it harder for brands to maintain their unique standing. (Timestamp 25:30)

6. Strategic Recommendations for Brands

Drawing from their analysis, Ana and Rei offer strategic insights for brand practitioners:

• Differentiation Over Superiority: Rei emphasizes, “Different is better than better,” advocating for brands to focus on being distinctive rather than merely enhancing functionality. This approach helps avoid pricing wars and fosters a unique brand identity. (Timestamp 31:56)

• Product Discoverability: Ana advises ensuring products are visually distinctive and easily discoverable across various platforms. This involves thoughtful merchandising strategies, such as limited editions, collaborations, and unique packaging. (Timestamp 24:24)

• Personalized Differentiation: To maintain identity at scale, brands should incorporate personalization—through customization options like monograms or exclusive experiences—thereby fostering a personal connection with consumers. (Timestamp 28:51)

• Balanced Product Portfolios: A mix of hero products and foundational offerings can help brands cater to both niche and mass markets without compromising their identity. (Timestamp 27:55)

7. Final Takeaways

As the conversation wraps up, Ana encourages listeners to strategically consider the balance between identity and functionality when developing products and brand strategies. “There is no right or wrong answer,” she states, emphasizing the importance of understanding the brand’s unique position and tailoring strategies accordingly. (Timestamp 31:15)

Rei echoes this sentiment, highlighting the necessity of differentiation in both functionality and identity to stand out in a competitive market. (Timestamp 31:56)

8. Brief Personal Exchanges and Wrap-Up

Towards the end of the episode, Rei and Ana briefly touch on personal interests, such as Rei’s newfound fascination with cooking a dish called Omrice and recent discussions surrounding Jaguar's branding controversies influenced by public figures like Elon Musk. These segments, while engaging, serve as lighter interludes to the main discussion on branding strategies. (Timestamps 35:27 - 43:11)

Conclusion

This episode of Hitmakers offers a comprehensive exploration of how brands can effectively balance product identity and functionality to influence culture and maintain market relevance. Through thoughtful analysis and real-world examples, Ana Andjelic and Rei Inamoto provide valuable insights for brand executives, marketers, and entrepreneurs aiming to carve out distinctive and functional niches in today’s complex marketplace.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ana Andjelic (01:19): “Identity can come from a product. As you know with Nike waffle shoes, as you know from your own work with Uniqlo, a six product can be so, with Google can be so distinguished...”

• Rei Inamoto (31:56): “Different is better than better. You can be better in your product functionality, but being different is a more certain strategy.”

• Ana Andjelic (28:51): “You can have identity at scale, but when you have identity at scale, it needs to be through differentiation on a personal level.”

---

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the pivotal roles product identity and functionality play in shaping brand success and cultural influence.

Transcript

[Ray]

So how are you, Anna? Just so that we can create. Just so that we can.

[Anna]

Let's cut. The boarding startup went really well. I just came back from a photo shoot and it was amazing. That was very inspiring. And now I'm ready for this conversation. How about yourself, Ray? What's.

[Ray]

Well, I'm looking forward. When you can talk about it publicly. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[Anna]

I know probably when it gets retouched. So what's new on your end?

[Ray]

I'm not traveling for the remainder of the year, which is kind of refreshing.

[Anna]

And especially so nice. Right.

[Ray]

I don't know what to do with myself because it's kind of unusual to not have a travel schedule on my calendar for next eight weeks. So I'm kind of looking forward to it.

[Anna]

Yeah. Yeah. But I understand you don't know what to do, because I. I think the longest I've been here. Yeah, Continuously was two weeks in New York. In New York, because I was in Miami. I'm going to Miami again on Monday and then to Europe to promote the book in Paris and then Zagreb. It's gonna be great.

[Ray]

So we're talking about identity versus functionality, right?

[Anna]

It's not identity versus functionality. I think it's a continuum, or the way I did it is two by two, because you know how luxury brands are all about identity. The provenance, founder, the quality, the aesthetics, the look. And then you have commodities that are all.

[Ray]

Yeah, let me rewind. Just to help the listeners visualize.

[Anna]

Correct.

[Ray]

Especially the podcast listeners, not the video gap. Let me rewind. So you wrote an article called Product wars, and the diagram that you had in it, which I thought was quite simple but quite deep in terms of how you think about the type of product that you're dealing with. So you had on one axis identity plus or minus or max or minimum. And then on the vertical axis you had a functionality max or minimum. And the top right corner would be maximum identity and maximum functionality. And you had, I think, broken stock.

[Anna]

Right, Correct.

[Ray]

As an example. As an example. And then some things that might be low on identity but high on functionality.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

So something like that, I would imagine, let's say Uniqlo Heattech, which I'm wearing inside the shirt right now.

[Anna]

I'll stop you right there. So. Because I think we do need to say identity plus means presence of identity, which means a very clear emotional association, rational idea. Identity minus means lack of identity. That means interchangeability of products. When you see something you don't know, is it like Nike? Is it Adidas? Is it something else where, you know, like those are, those are brands.

[Ray]

I see.

[Anna]

But I think it makes sense to kind of say presence or absence.

[Ray]

And then I see, I see.

[Anna]

Functionality plus means products that are really durable, really functional in a sense. They're variable and they have a staying power because their product properties superior to others. And then functionality minus is they don't have any distinguished product properties. Practice.

[Ray]

So something like. And on that diagram that you have.

[Anna]

Let'S go to Uniqlo now.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Say like Uniqlo.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Ray]

Especially things that you wear on your skin directly. Let's say like Heat Tech or Airism or even like socks that might not have a lot of identity. Maybe there are certain socks that you show off and that do have identity, but let's say generic ones, whether it's Uniqlo or Muji or something else, it doesn't really matter.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Those are what you would consider low identity or plus or minus. That would be minus. And then high on functionality but low on identity.

[Anna]

Correct, correct. But they need to be. You need to be able. Like they can't be fast fashion stuff because fast fashion stuff doesn't last long enough. So that would be functionality minus identity minus something that drips after three years. However, Uniqlo that you said or Muji or so on, they're durable enough.

[Ray]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Very functionality that is. So maybe they don't have identity by design in terms of Moji. That's what I write on the sociology of business in that product course. The whole idea behind Muji, Mujiroshi means high quality goods without the name because they're like, oh, we don't need the brand. Their products speak for themselves, you know, if, you know, if, if I remember correctly. So in that sense, Uniqlo is durable and you can very durable like and Muji as well. I bought something.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

I wear men's M T shirts from Muji. They, they have the best fit and they last. They last five years and they still haven't changed their color. They're still haven't changed their materials. Like they've been washed.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna]

So that would be high functionality. Maybe they don't have identity because they don't have a logo or they don't have a signature color or a signature cut that you recognize. But they have high functionality, so they're valuable.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

So again, just for the sake of the audience, can you give a quick summary of what you were arguing for in the article Product course? Right. And at the point that you're making the axis between functionality and identity.

[Anna]

Correct. So I think that like the whole idea is that you don't have really commodity, just commodities on one side and then super distinguished artisanal objects on the other. It's kind of that the entire fashion, retail, apparel, sports industries, the verticals have been created on that continuum. And the success of brands really depends from their ownership and knowledge which quadrant they're playing in. So sometimes you have brands like Hermes, for example, they have super distinguished Birkin. They, they have a distinguished Kelly bag. And these are recognizable no matter how many mocks there are. You know that this is $100,000 Birkin bag. So it, it's really in which quadrant you play. And that's the whole point really defines what your business model is, who your customer is, what your go to market strategy is, what, how do you do creative and so on. So what we have now is that luxury brands that are all about identity. And this has like been a lot of conversation as the quarterly results from Q3 came in and more luxury brands have been kind of going down. And I also wrote about it, and I'm sure you read involved three journal in Financial Times and so on about this loss of pricing power from luxury. Pricing power is really connected to that identity because you never look at price with luxury. You look, you're buying something, you're buying into something. And because it says something about yourself, Chanel, Louis Vuitton, even Prada, Hermes. It's not accidental that Prada and Hermes are doing really well and all other caring and Louis Vuitton LVMH brands are maybe on their way to, to, to kind of reconsider their strategy is because basically there has a decision to be made. Do you want to, to be fashion? Do you have one fashion strategy which is then constant novelty, constant new creative directors opening new stories towards maximizing your market presence. Or you want to have that uniqueness, originality of identity that is differentiated because it's not available to everyone.

[Ray]

You say in the article that the difference between these days, the difference between brand and commodities, the line between the two is becoming blurry.

[Anna]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

And the distinction is less clear than it used to be.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

So let's unpack that. Tell me, as it relates to this conversation, the axis between identity versus functionality. Right. In relation to something that has a strong brand versus something that is a commoditized brand.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

How do identity and functionality relate to brand or commodity?

[Anna]

Identity can come from a product.

[Ray]

Yes, definitely.

[Anna]

As you know with Nike waffle shoes, as you know from your own work with Uniqlo, with a 6 product can be so, with Google can be so distinguished, this distinguish, indistinguishable that it has its own identity. Dr. Martin's, Levi's, 501 Birkenstocks, even crocs, they have recognizable shape. They, you know what to expect from them. They have a specific way they're made and that doesn't change hundreds of years, they don't change. So that's that. So identity can come from that product functionality.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Or it can come from brand. So when it comes from brand, that is what, what I was talking about earlier with luxury brands. It's heritage, it's history story is, is the founders. So the most successful brands, luxury or not, were those that had product innovation, like new shape, new material. Coco Chanel did with, with her tweet, with her suits, with Balenciaga, Bottega, all of them, Louis Vuitton. At the end of the day, all of them started with product innovation and built a brand around that. So those are the Hermes. At the end of the day, the symbols like that, the horse saddle and that came out of it. It's a specific way of making things that distinguish them from everyone else. But then you have brands that are making, I'll say products. Coca Cola makes soda or Nike makes other shoes in addition to waffle. Apple makes McIntosh computer. That's how they start. But then everything else around it, their identity is given to them through a brand. A brand is that emotion that is given to inanimate objects. So now you. Nike means running, Apple means creativity. I don't know. What does Uniqlo mean for you? Tell me.

[Ray]

Uniqlo means democracy. Democracy of code.

[Anna]

Yeah, great. Amazing. So you know what I mean when you hear those things? Oh, at Uniqlo I'm gonna get something that's high quality at democratic place, you know. So in that sense, identity comes from two things and you can may end up at the same place. When you have a strong brand, the problem becomes when you separate the product to the brand. And what does that mean? That means you can have the best advertising in the world, the most fun advertising in the world. If your product is not great, yeah, you're gonna have, look, you can be successful. Zara is successful. Zara did improve their quality and so on. But that's going to define your strategy.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ray]

So the point that you were making earlier and the recent conversations around how luxury brands are losing pricing power, soft.

[Anna]

Power, pricing is connected. They still have pricing power, but people are questioning themselves because they lost the soft power is the cultural power, the power of status signaling that why do you like something? You like something you wear. You wear T shirts with a star on it. Because that's your identity. And if someone comes in, you would pay a lot of money if you find one that's unique. You're not going to question, you know, in theory and maybe in practice, but you don't question a, how many years am I going to get out of this? Once that happens, you are in a domain of premium and mass brands.

[C]

Yes.

[Anna]

You're doing a national calculation. You're not doing that emotional identity level, which is like you pay a thousand dollars for. For. For a wallet or a bag if you're lucky, because it has certain connotations, you know, so when you say, I don't know about this Chanel watch, how much am I. How many times am I going to wear it?

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

That's the loss of soft power.

[Ray]

Right, right.

[Anna]

That didn't happen to Chanel. But I'm just.

[Ray]

Yeah, no, I understood. So let's say, like, if I were to put my self into the shoes of a marketer or even a product merchandiser, getting ready for the next season a year from now. Right.

[Anna]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

How should I start thinking about functionality versus identity? As I'm planning the next lineup of products for the upcoming season, I would.

[Anna]

Like you to answer that question. I wrote. I think that because we come from different. I think that. That listeners heard my point of view. I would love. No, I appreciate that myself, to hear yours.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

For the sake of this conversation, let me. We talked about Uniqlo.

[Anna]

So I want to give away. I'm sorry, you don't want to give away any smarts without being paid. You're like, I'm not giving you my strategy.

[Ray]

No, not really. Just be. Well, you know what. No, no, I could talk about. Because I'm not really working with them when it comes to product development.

[Anna]

No, I know.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Or even, even like seasonal campaigns. But you know what? Let's talk about Nike. Just because Nike had a recent shakeup of the management. Right. The CEO guy and a longtime veteran came back into the picture to take on the leadership role and what Nike could do to regain its status, relevance, and potentially commercial value as a brand. And I would say a brand like Nike thrived because they were on the plus side of both functionality and identity.

[Anna]

Correct.

[Ray]

It's one of those brands that needed to aim for the plus, the max side of both sides. Both axes.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Because I think a lot of brands, particularly in the sports sector, I Think many of them started as a functionality brand. And then what Nike did brilliantly for many decades was that they were able to add identity into their storytelling way more effectively than.

[Anna]

And you know why they did that? Because they, they started, they went from running to golfing to swimming to like all sports. And in order to do that you really need to have a strong brand. You're not going to be the best in all of that.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

In terms of functionality. So that's why you need a brand which is a guarantee, a stamp of course. Quality.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So it's a halo effect of, of like maybe basketball and, and running when they're really the best going into other areas, categories. So that was their growth strategy.

[Ray]

But I think what's, what's kind of interesting just to take sports as an, as a category as an example and this may be one of the points that you're making is that I think in a business or in a category that is so focused on functionality or performance. Right. Functionality could also be the identity, couldn't it? So let me, let me.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Thousand percent. I mean all those brands that we mentioned at the beginning, they got identity from functionality.

[Ray]

Yeah. So just to keep on the thought on Nike, I think back in the day when Nike became something back in the 70s and even in the 80s, starting with the running category. And by the way, one of the early quote unquote famous athlete or endorsed athletes that they had was a guy named Steve Prefontaine who was a mid and long distance runner. And he had an attitude, he embodied the spirit of Nike. And then later on it was athletes like Joe McEnroe who was a tennis player, but he was a, he was a bad boy tennis player. And then in the eight, you know, late 80s to early 90s, he was Michael Jordan and he was this superstar basketball player that was insanely talented and insanely skilled and superhuman and he became an iconic figure. But it was the embodiment of functionality as well as identity that made Nike. Nike.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Now Fast forward say 30 years and in the past five years what's happened in that category of sports. Nike started to go downhill a little bit. I mean Nike is still by far the biggest sports company. So you know, they're not going to be taken over by one of the small players just yet. You know, they have some Runway to course correct and take off again. But say in the running.

[Anna]

I don't know if you agree. The timing was unfortunate. They released this ad.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

From NFL game on Monday. Nike released Instagram ad who was that guy who jumped backwards, have you seen that, Ray? That was became a Nike ad. It was like they, they just got out of the way. Athletes are superheroes and they just let like this is exactly what they were with Michael Jordan with those like rule breaking athletes. Extraordinary feats of extraordinary athletes, rule breaking moments. So it's like there is no product in there. There is, there is nothing. Like there is no brand. There is no just do it. There is no slogan. There is no, nothing. It's extraordinary moment when a brand captured it and say witness. Just witness the greatness. Athletes are the heroes. Get out of them.

[Ray]

Right, right, right.

[Anna]

Instead of this elaborate ads just capture a moment of greatness. Literally what he said and the speed and the medium, how they've done it. Because American football fan have seen that and was like oh my God. Like look, the back flip was unbelievable.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ray]

If I were to critique a bit on that particular execution. I think they tried to be a little bit too clever.

[Anna]

I knew I was going to say that. But honestly Ray, it's advertising. There is no such thing as too clever.

[Ray]

No, no, I would, I, I disagree. They should have just said. They should have just said. I think they were clever in like flipping the logo and the, the, the word witnesses flipped. It is clever but I think if I were them I would have just done just do it and the logo and if you know, you know and that would have been great. As opposed to trying to over explain, try to be clever. Oh, you know, let's flip the logo. Let's say witness and they flip it. Too much. Too much.

[Anna]

Yeah, you see like I hear you. I didn't even notice that. What I noticed was just the logo.

[C]

Yes.

[Anna]

And I didn't even pay because it's on social. Your attention spans are so short.

[Ray]

0.5 seconds.

[Anna]

Intention was what got me.

[Ray]

Fair enough.

[Anna]

But yeah, I understand, I understand what you mean.

[Ray]

Well, I'm a creative so I have to pick up those details. So Nike, historically and traditionally they've done a really great job of associating functionality with identity. Right. They would pour millions of dollars in sponsoring amazing athletes all the way back to Steve Prefontaine, to, to Charles Bar, you know, many, you know, Michael Jordan and many athletes. Hundreds and hundreds of athletes. But in the recent years, brands that may not be spending as much money as Nike may have been and they might not have individuals associated with those brands but are succeeding in creating more presence of their brand. Right. And the products are becoming the identity as opposed to people or say the wear being associated with the brand. So just to use an example, like Asics. Asics, right. Which ironically, by the way gave birth to Nike many, many years ago, Many decades ago. Up until like 2021, their sales was declining. And in 2021 they released a pair of shoes, or actually I should say two. Two pairs of shoes, running shoes that became very popular because they were effective in terms of performance. And that started to turn them, turn their business up, back around. And those products became the he, you know, what you call the hero product. And then those hero products created halo effect. And then the brand is, you know, it's nowhere near the scale or the success of Nike, but it's definitely making a comeback. But they don't necessarily have a strong, I wouldn't say identity the same way that Nike has, but product is becoming the identity it is.

[Anna]

And I do think that Nike, certain Nike products have become like our identity, like that original, that waffles and then Pandas and then Air Jordans. So I want, I want to unpack that and also chime in, interrupt me when I go because there is a lot to unpack here.

[C]

Yes.

[Anna]

And first thing to unpack is that those products assume identity of their own. They're recognizable no matter where. And that is actually going back to your question before is like, what would be merchandising and product strategy for the next year? So I would say first of all, that product needs to be distinguished enough. The brand codes, the patterns, the color palette, the stitching, the shape has, needs to be able to live among online knowing that it's going to be discovered on online platforms. So it needs to stand out visually. It doesn't need to be neon pink. It's not about that. It's about having a recognizable shape, format, stitching, color palette, patterns. Something needs to be recognizable.

[C]

Yes.

[Anna]

That's number one in terms of merchandising is knowing how is that going, how is that product going to be discovered? So that means do you surround that product with merch? Do you do it as a capsule? Do you do it in special packaging? Do you do it as a collaboration? How do you make an edit of those products in different channels to increase chances of its identity, discoverability, differentiation. So that's the answer. The second thing is also my question to you. When aesthetics becomes a liability, Pandas are now so ubiquitous that no one wants to wear them anymore. Always.

[Ray]

Right.

[Anna]

Like people. But you know what I mean, they don't have that pricing power, that soft power that to command high prices on secondary marketplaces. Same reason as Alessandro Michele left Gucci after creating for eight years. Unbelievable brand comeback through that world building very recognizable aesthetics. When does aesthetic become liability?

[Ray]

Well, when it becomes too ubiquitous, too, almost too popular. And then, and also I think the liability is that when it becomes popular that other companies start copying.

[Anna]

So popularity is the enemy of identity. You know what a lot of brands are going through now because they need popularity to have market growth, but that popularity then kills their differentiation. So it becomes harder to compete. And you don't want like I think that mass brands, premium brands have always been in that market, but luxury brands haven't.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[Ray]

I mean that's basically what happened. One of, one of the things that happened to Nike in the recent years is that to your point, those dunks, you know, the panda dunks, the double colored dunk sneakers, and they just kept producing different versions of it and they just saturated the market with many different versions of the same thing to a point that people started to say, you know what, this is not unique enough. Like I don't need to be wearing the same pair of Nike dunks that everybody in New York is wearing.

[Anna]

And then Zara started copying and others started copying that sort of color palette. So I think it's a two edged sword because what I said before is like, you know, you have brands that don't change, they just don't change. Muji is never going to make something that's going to be like super trendy. Yeah, yeah, you go there for basics. Uniqlo, they may have capsules and collaborations. There's that merchandising and product strategy that I talked before. Yeah, they're going to create a limited edition excitement and novelty, but they're going to be very considered who they're working with. J.W. anderson, Jill Sander, now they have Claride Keller as you know as their designer. So Rick Owens has, he hasn't changed his brand or the basic product. So it's really going back to what we talked about last week and I encourage listeners to go back to it to put this conversation in context and having the product pyramid. So you clearly cannot not have popular products. I mean you can stay niche, of course you can, but then you're going to stay niche. So how do you grow through combination of the hero products of that foundational products and then that collection that is going to be your response to trends. I'm just saying that now it has become a question of not just a pyramid, but portfolio.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Do you think that. So the top pick around identity versus popularity and you Said that popularity kills identity or could kill identity.

[Anna]

It does kill it because it does kill. Yeah, everyone. Like, look, what I'm trying to say. Yes, you can have identity at scale, but when you have identity at science scale, there needs to be something else. And like, rather than this sounding like rambling, it's you achieve identity scale through differentiation on a personal level. So I'll explain. So that means you can either customize something, personalize something through monograms, or you can provide differentiation through experience, through service. That's almost when that brand and marketing strategy comes in. Yes. You can limit the number of Birkins that exist out there.

[Ray]

Yes.

[Anna]

And that's what Hermes is doing because it takes a long time to create one and there is a wait list and so on. But then that's also limited by how. What relationship you have with the brand. So, you know, like identity becomes almost that personal relationship. You can put the monogram or you have like VIP access or you spend X amount of money or it becomes membership or you become invited to XYZ event and so on. So that's your marketing comes in to create that illusion, or maybe not always an illusion of that private personal relationship.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

That you get with the brand that is actually a mass brand. That's the way for a brand not to lose an identity, to provide differentiation on a personal level.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

All right, so just to summarize this conversation and this idea of functionality, access and identity access, and every product exists on this spectrum, both vertically, horizontally, functionality versus identity. And there's certain products that can achieve both high functionality and high identity. And that's when those products can become in demand, correct?

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

I mean, some products, they could be low on functionality, but very own high on identity. And that still could be very desirable.

[Anna]

Like watches, jewelry, for example, handbags. I mean, even luxury fashion, basically. Luxury? Yeah. Like at some point, I mean, I don't want to say this because there is like, even when you like, say among Tokyo hotels, that experience is different than any other experience.

[C]

Yes.

[Anna]

You know, so that's kind of very differentiated experience.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna]

So there needs to be a certain level of functionality. Like even when you pay for a watch, it needs to looks beautiful, be very valuable, made out of precious materials, with luxury the same. So there always needs to be that element of functionality in a sense, not just in a traditional sense. Oh, I'm using my words to tell time there are other functionalities inside of that.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

So just to wrap up, what do you want? What's the one thing that you want the Listeners to take away from this conversation.

[Anna]

I want people to people, listeners and brand practitioners to start thinking in terms of those identity, functionality, mix like, you know, how you pull levers in terms of their strategy. So if they can decide to have a mass strategy, but then they're going to see how is my product going to be discovered in those mass markets only marketplaces, social media, online platform, search and so on. So it's. There is no right or wrong answer. It's like knowing exactly which field you play in and what is the right go to market, strategy, creative and communication for, for that. That's my, that's my recommendation.

[Ray]

I see my single point takeaway from this conversation and I might be reaching far with this one. But the, the key point that I was thinking about is different is better than better. What I mean by that is, yeah, you can be quote, unquote, better in your product functionality, but being different is a more certain strategy. Because if you're trying to make your product better in terms of functionality, then you get into pricing wars. Oh, you know, is this one cheaper, the same functionality, but cheaper, or is it really better? And in terms of identity, to your point, if you're not different, then better is a very subjective measure. Right. So identity defines who you are differently, how you are different from other products, other brands, other entities. So I think on both the functionality axis and the identity axis. And to answer my own question earlier, like, if I were to be building a strategy for next season or next year, I would think about, how can I be different? How can my brand be different or how can my product be different in both functionality and identity? That's how I would start thinking about.

[Anna]

Yes. Then you went for two things. You entered the area of fashion because you're always looking for a difference.

[C]

Yes.

[Anna]

You know, this season it's short sleeves, long sleeves, a hole on a sleeve. You always do something different. So some people, like some brands don't want to compete there. And then the other one is you need to have a good enough product.

[C]

Right, Right.

[Anna]

Yes. You know, you like, it needs to be good enough. If Levi's all of a sudden started making 501s, they didn't fit well anymore. There was different quality. It wouldn't work. It needs to be good enough. It needs to be comparable.

[Ray]

At least. At least.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Good. And then you can do like what Nike did and so on.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ray]

Cool.

[Anna]

So that is my. So let's go to Heat list. Can I go first?

[Ray]

Oh, yeah, okay. Sure. Go Heathless.

[Anna]

Oh, my God. So Jaguar but not the Jaguar rebranding, but the conversation around, especially. Especially among American. Right. If I may say, which is connected to our conversation with identity, because I've seen a lot. There is an entire MAGA aesthetic being formed. I saw J Guy who is a menswear expert, and he's talking how barber jackets. He quoted how barber jackets have become Americans. Right. So symbol. So I think maybe you can live for the next time, open up a little bit about that. That identity, once it goes from the domain of brands and that I intended identity, if I may say, to what happened to Burberry before and so be. I would be very curious to see how the political landscape now shapes identity of brands. So that gets me to Jaguar and the outrage.

[Ray]

Yes. It's being kind of an unexpected but fascinating conversation around it. Just in the last week or so or less.

[Anna]

Less than a week, I would say. Yeah, maybe since Monday, Tuesday, whenever that launched people. I don't know anyone who didn't chime in.

[Ray]

Yeah, yeah, no, I saw a bunch of posts on LinkedIn. Of course.

[Anna]

So what's your hit?

[Ray]

I have two items on my hit list.

[Anna]

Okay.

[Ray]

One is a book I just started reading called Revenge of the Tipping Point.

[Anna]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Do you know the book?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ray]

I just saw it come up on my audible. And I remember when I came into the industry 20, 25 years ago, that book was all the rage. Like, everybody was reading it and every market I was quoting it.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

So I'm wondering if it's going to be the deja vu 25 years later that everybody's going to be shaking my.

[Anna]

Head to those who cannot see me. Okay, let's go to your second. Let's go to your second.

[Ray]

Okay. My second one is Om rice. Do you know what that is? Omelette rice. Om rice.

[Anna]

Oh, no, no, no.

[Ray]

Okay. So maybe you don't know to think.

[Anna]

About it based on its name, but yeah, so it's.

[Ray]

It's a combination of omelette and rice.

[Anna]

Okay.

[Ray]

And maybe it's my Instagram habit. And in the past couple weeks or so, I've been getting hit with just reels after reels of amateur and professional chefs uploading these beautiful videos of them cooking this dish called Omrice. And what it is is it's a bit of rice, and it's like flavored rice. Right. And you put egg omelette on top of it, but you have to cook it in such a way that you cook the outside of the omelette just enough.

[Anna]

Okay. So this is already Lost. Weird.

[Ray]

No, no, no. It's fascinating. No, no, no. So let me, Let me stick with it. Let me, Let me stick with it. Let me stick with it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stick to stick. Stick with.

[Anna]

I'm staying with you. I'm staying with you. Yeah, you need to cook omelette just enough to watch.

[Ray]

So, yeah, you, you cook the, the surface of the omelette just tight enough, but then you put it on the rice and you cut a slit and then it sort of melts on top of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

And then if you search for it, there are hundreds of videos.

[Anna]

I'm gonna search for it because my Instagram algorithm is.

[Ray]

No, you're missing out, Anna. Yeah. Let me tell you, you're missing out. You're missing out on a piece of happiness you're missing.

[Anna]

Oh, did you try.

[Ray]

Very impress. Oh, I, I, I have tried it. I have tried it.

[Anna]

And did you manage to do it just right?

[Ray]

No, no. And so I.

[Anna]

So when, say, Japanese, they make omelets with chopsticks. So this.

[Ray]

They do. Yes.

[Anna]

The level of artistry we talk about. But I'm intrigued enough to look it up. I'm not intrigued enough about Malcolm Gladwell's book.

[Ray]

Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Anna]

That has been debunked. He's amazing. Storyteller.

[Ray]

Yes, he is.

[Anna]

He is.

[Ray]

He is. He is.

[Anna]

He's not a social scientist. He doesn't have any doctorate in sociology.

[Ray]

Fair point.

[Anna]

Please don't offend me by men.

[Ray]

No offense. Take. It's not me, it's him. Right. Anyway, so let me.

[Anna]

I love your kids.

[Ray]

Let me finish my story about Omaris. So I got intrigued. You know, is it just a technique thing? But it's. It's actually, it's the technique, but also it's the kind of frying pan that you use. And. Okay, yeah, there is a town in Japan that makes these frying pans specifically for making this kind of omelet that is sealed on the outside, but tender on the inside, so that when you put it. And then cut a slit on top, it melts. Yeah. And I'm convinced that if you, if you source the frying pan from Japan and sell it on Amazon, you. You, you will sell like hotcakes.

[Anna]

So you don't think that Amazon already sells it?

[Ray]

I don't think so. I don't think so. Because. Yeah, I don't think so. I haven't seen it.

[Anna]

Okay, whoever is listening from Amazon, guys.

[Ray]

Yes, yes. Or anybody. Anybody who can source this frying pan from Japan Yeah. Because I can't find the frying pan in Japan in the States, and I've tried to make one with the. The frying pans that I have at home and it didn't work.

[Anna]

So next time you go to Japan, Ray.

[Ray]

Yes, yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

You'll have to explain U.S. customs that you have in your head.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ray]

But to come back to the jargon topic, why, why there was such a.

[Anna]

The car. The. The font is very. The color. Like, I think it's kind of like everyone's outraged and I just wonder if it's like, are we in the age of outrage or. Because I'm like, who cares, people? I mean, you know what I mean? It's like, at the end of the day, you can give it like a different identity, but it's still going to be a Jaguar car. It's still going to work in a certain way. It's still going to mean something.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Just changing the logo, releasing a piece of advertisement. Does it Change the past 50 years of associations with Jaguar? Like, why people so outraged?

[Ray]

I mean, part of it is, to be honest, Elon Musk, who, by the way, is a CEO for Tesla, commenting on it and you know, his. His fans reacting because he commented, saying, do you sell cars? That was his comment in reply to the. The Jaguar ad. So part of it is, you know, Elon Musk just fanning the flame and his fans reacting to it. I mean, you know, he's got millions of followers, so him just commenting on something like that, I think does. Does. Does impact culture, unfortunately.

[Anna]

So he basically amplified that.

[Ray]

He amplified it. He amplified. So, yeah, I think this was posted a couple.

[Anna]

Two days ago, United States.

[Ray]

Yeah, exactly. He. He posted two days ago saying, do you sell cars? And it was viewed five point. I'm looking at x 5.3 million views and there's like close to 10,000 retweets of it.

[Anna]

Honestly, I think it's great PR for J.

[Ray]

Probably is.

[Anna]

Probably is great PR, and I think. Anyway, all right, so it's great PR, but that kind of caught my attention, I think. Yeah, it's more interesting. Your rice omelette. Ra.

[Ray]

Yeah. Because I think.

[Anna]

I think more interested because it shows how niche something so niche is actually, you know, creates a subculture that has its own products, its own technology. That pan.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anna]

And it's all like fans and community and now who. Who can make it better, you know?

[Ray]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[Ray]

Started with a product. Started with a product. There's a product demo. Right. It's these chefs just cooking these amazing things.

[C]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And great example of brand building, I would say.

[Ray]

Exactly. Like, it's starting from the product and there's a clear functionality to it, so it's also skill.

[Anna]

So it's there, if you want to say it.

[Ray]

That's true. Identity. Identity. So, yeah, you know, I was just. I looked at it, it's like, wow, this is fascinating. And I thought it was apt to bring to the table.

[Anna]

Amazing.

[Ray]

All right. With that, why don't we wrap up and see you in two weeks? Right.

[Anna]

See you in two weeks. Thanks so much.

[Ray]

All right. Yeah.