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- [00:00]
A
Relatability or authenticity is relatability. But actually, whether it's escapism or not, it's the contradiction that exists in the real world, even within that individual, makes that character or that person more interesting and potentially relatable. Welcome to Culture and Code, a podcast about the biggest shifts in culture and tech. I'm Reinamoto, a creative entrepreneur and founding partner of IanClobe, a global innovation firm based in New York, Tokyo and Singapore.
- [00:31]
B
Great. And I'm Tara Tan, managing partner of Strange Ventures. We are a first check firm investing in the future of computing.
- [00:38]
A
So today's topic, when we were brainstorming what to talk about, you actually brought up K Pop Demon Hunters. And I actually did watch it over the weekend just to do my homework. I knew about it because it came up on my Netflix in the last month or so. But also for whatever reason, I've been getting hit with their ads quite a bit on audio, the K Pop Demon Hunter, sing along events. I don't know if I'm a target or not, but maybe because I watched on Netflix and that conversation led to talking about, not just about that particular ip, but the recent sort of faz, if I may call it that, but recent sort of trend of these fictional characters becoming quite popular. So another one that I mentioned was Labubu, which, by the way, I'm not an owner of, and just in general, escapism at large is what I thought we could talk about. So since you mentioned K Pop Demon Hunters, tell us about, you know, how you came across and why you thought that would be an interesting topic to begin with.
- [01:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, we talk about, you know, you know, obviously culture and code, and I think that there's an interesting shift. I mean, you call it escapism, I think I read an interview with the labubu founder and he was like, I am in the business of happiness. So I'm crafting this product really to make people happy. And that is his goal. There's no real utility or even universe around Labubus. He was like, I just wanted to make people happy. And that's why, you know, that came with that surprise package. Yeah, you know, it's a blind box. You don't know what you're getting. You open it and that's the surprise, you know. Yeah, that's like happiness for him. Quite interesting. I mean, K Pop Demon Hunters I thought was interesting phenomena. I caught it probably a month back, I want to say, but it's on track to becoming the top movie on Netflix. It's Already the best animated. It's on track to becoming the top.
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A
Oh, wow. That's. That says something.
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B
Yes. Wow. I think it broke 20 million this weekend for that Sing along theaters.
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A
Yeah. Oh, wow.
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B
But I think it's been viewed something like. I think. Yeah, yeah. I think this weekend it was viewed like 1300 times with one over a thousand sold out screenings.
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A
Okay.
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B
Which is crazy. They made 20 million over the box office. And the crazy thing is Sony fumbled the bag. So Sony made the film?
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A
Yes, Sony Entertainment Animation made the film. That's right. That's right.
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B
They did a beautiful job. They sold all the rights to Netflix for K Pop demon hunters for $20 million.
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A
Oh my God, they must be kicking themselves.
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B
It's insane. Because they made it for about 100 million.
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A
Okay. And they sold it for 20 million.
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B
They sold it for 20 million.
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A
Oh my God.
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B
And all the rights. So that includes sequels, spin off merch, everything. 20 million. They wanted it off their hands.
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A
I wonder why that is.
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B
I mean, it's such a surprise hit. Like, it sounds weird. K Pop Demon Hunters, you know, like it's a pretty edgy theme for kids. I think Sony was supposed to, you know, launch it in theaters. They weren't sure if that was going to work, so. So they were like, let's just take it, you know, take it off our hands.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah.
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B
So they sold it for. To Netflix for 20 million. They made it for about a hundred million. The budget was about a hundred million. They sold it at a loss. Really? They wrote it off. They wrote it off. Which is insane because right now Netflix is sitting basically on top of their number one box office hit, which they.
- [04:25]
A
Got pennies on the doll for too many 29. Yeah, they didn't even make it. They had somebody else make it and then they bought the.
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B
I mean, they took it. They took it. You know, like they were like, oh, it was like a bargain sale from Sony, basically.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And they were like, sure, we'll take it. 20 mil. And now it's like on track to becoming their biggest hit. I mean, their songs are hitting number one on the Billboard charts.
- [04:47]
A
Right, right, right, right. I was reading an interview with the, the writer, director of the show and what I didn't realize. Yeah, her name is Maggie Cam and then she got a partner, writer, director, partner, Chris Applehands. They are the directors. But I think it's the brainchild of Maggie K. And the, the interview that I was reading said that she's. She worked on it for seven years, so I thought it was much more recent. Than that, you know, whoever came up with this because K Pop and animation and, you know, all these things. I thought it was more of a recent thing and didn't realize that she started working on it seven years ago. And then she brought on Chris, this guy, Chris Applehans, as a partner, writer, director, and then they expanded and deepened the story and then they got Sony to make it, you know, create the animation. Didn't. I didn't read as far as the Netflix deal. I didn't realize that part of the equation. Yeah, but she had been working on it for such a long time and you know, I was asking my daughter, who's 16, about it if she had watched it. And she was like, oh yeah, I watched it. And she had a very sort of dry critique of it in that in comparison to other anime movies that she's watched, she enjoyed it and she said that she understood why it's popular, especially with the sing along component or music component of it. You know, it's such a. It's almost like a musical, right? Yeah, but she. I thought her reaction was little mature in that she was like, oh, you know, it's not that deep. And I could, I mean, depending on how you read into it, you know, because there's like Korean mythology behind it and, you know, folklore behind it. So it could be deep depending on how much you read into it. But at the same time, you don't have to read into it to understand that entertainment.
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B
I thought it was a lot deeper than really kids shows. So this was aimed for, I think 8 to 12 was the age range. Oh, it's not young, it's a tween range. This was like a tween show. So, you know, like Tweenie Bopper kind of show. I felt like the teens were quite mature. I mean, they talked about, if you kind of read into the literary analysis of the film, they went through a lot. Right. Like the parts of yourself that you don't like or you have to keep hidden. I think one of the characters was like a child of divorce who lived between two countries and she talked about that another character was like a problem child, you know, who was always told to. That she was the black sheep of the family and so on. So, like, I feel like there's a lot of kind of pretty, I would say, not say adult, but they didn't infantilize a lot of themes. Like, yeah, yeah, we're kids. You know, I was like, you know, it's probably as deep, if not more deep than, you know, the stuff in that range, which is like your Toy Story or your monsters.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
So it's supposed to be a tween show.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Kind of interesting or pre.
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A
I mean, the main theme. Well, one of the main themes, I would say. I mean, there's, you know, this. The K pop aspect of it, and, you know, these three girls, the band, who on the surface is a K pop music band, but, you know, that's their way of fighting these. So there's that kind of structure to it. But to your point, the. One of the main themes is about self discovery, and that's. That may be why for the audience especially, you know, if it's the 28 to 12 or even a teenager, that's when they go through the puberty and the process trying to. Yeah. Finding their place. Which, by the way, I. I feel like it's an ongoing struggle for anybody. You know, people into their 40s, perhaps.
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B
I mean, like, I feel like it's constant. Right. We're struggling with our own demons. Things were, you know, things that we're always trying to hide because.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's a big theme and I, you know, I do wonder. Like, it's interesting. I feel like in the realms of content right now, there's not been something that has felt so kind of timeless or like bridges generation, you know, kind of thing. It kind of feels like interesting. I mean, Labubu is a similar thing. Right. It's a toy, but it's kind of captured the imagination of, you know, people across different decades.
- [09:21]
A
Yeah. But I guess the reason why I brought up the topic of escapism is, like, Labubu. So just to switch gears to Labuba a bit, that IP has been around since 2050. So the character designer, you said that, you know, he's in the business of creating happiness.
- [09:43]
B
That's right.
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A
Right. It's an artist named Kassing Lang, who's based in Hong Kong, and he created labubu back in 2015, so 10 years ago. And it was, I think, 2019 that Pop Mart, which is a Chinese toy manufacturer slash company, was bought. The rights to Labubu, or actually, yeah, the rights of the character. And then the story that this artist was writing and then turning into Labubu as intellectual property, slash, you know, toy or figurines. Yeah. And then. But that was 2019, so it took almost five years for it to really catch fire. And it was a combination of, like, celebrities like Lisa, you know, another K pop artist, or a couple of people of that stature featured Labubu as their, you know, pet animal or a pet stuffed animal, and that caught fire. But also, you know, the point that you were making about the blind boxing so that you don't know what color you're going to get until you buy it. So that kind of, you know, make people. Makes people addicted to collecting, whatever. How many. I don't even know how many colors they have. But what do you think is behind, like, it's not like this idea of escapism or this genre of fictional characters. I mean, it's been around for forever, Right. In different forms. But animated characters like the Demon Hunters or this sort of, you know, ugly, cute character in Labubu caught the imagination of the current generation. Now, you know, I'm kind of curious. Like, I don't know exactly what the answer is right now, but. Or maybe like, the reason why I brought up the point of escapism is that I think people may be tired of reality, so they are clinging on to alternate reality in these characters and stories.
- [11:51]
B
Yeah, I mean, I would say that's just human nature generally. No. Like, you always love entertainment and movies and all of that. So I think that's part of it. I don't know. For me, these characters feel a little bit more. There's kind of like an edginess to them, which I thought was kind of interesting. Right. Like, it doesn't. Like, Labubus are kind of, like you said, ugly, cute. Like, they're not adorable. They're kind of.
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A
Yeah, they're not. Yeah, they're not cutesy.
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B
A little bit ugly. Not that cute. And I don't know, I think there's this, like, edginess to these, like, animation or animated characters that I find quite interesting. Like they're not full anime, you know, kind of visuals. They're not kind of your Disney clean cut or Pixar, like, you know, super, like, infant looking like character. They're kind of edgy.
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A
Yeah. The Labubu character, it's these teeth that they have that make the character a little bit mischievous, I guess.
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B
Yeah. Yes, Mischievous is a good one.
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A
Yeah. I might not say they're evil, but there's that kind. You know, the word you use is edgy.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But particularly like the Labubu character, there's this kind of mischievous or mischief in it that makes it a little bit unexpected, maybe.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or intrigue. Yeah. Intriguing. That's different from. To your point, you know, like the polished Disney characters or some of the. Even, like a lot of the Japanese anime characters. They tend to be on the cutesy side, you know, in like, the old days. Like, what's that.
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B
What's that, Sanrio?
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A
Like Samuel? Like hell. Exactly.
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B
Healthy. Yeah.
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A
Right. Hello Kitty. Are not. There's some purity to them.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That there's no edginess or edge to them. Whereas Labubu, by the way, like, I've never bought one and I. I don't know anybody or even, you know, my. My daughter who does. Oh. Maybe she. As far as I know, she hasn't got one. At least she hasn't asked us to buy one. But there's that kind of ugliness or edge that makes people curious. And not to shift gears a bit, but again, the reason why I was using the word escapism is I happened to come across an article that was in Vogue business a few months ago and he was about. Let me. Let me bring it up on. On screen. It was about why escaping escapism is the new marketing currency.
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B
I kind of disagree with that thesis. My sense is the counter.
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A
I mean, let me bring it up.
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B
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I hear what they're saying. I just.
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A
Yeah. So this one, by the way, you know, this is in Vogue, so it's very much about fashion and the argument that this article was making, which came out actually quite a while ago, six months ago, almost six months of March of 2025. And. And writer is Amy Francobi is saying that in 2025, relatability has reached a breaking point. And yeah, the point that she's making is that the take. Take the paparazzi campaign trend once the clever marketing tactic which has become formulaic. So, you know, a lot of particularly fashion and luxury fashion houses are using this sort of paparazzi like, photojournalistic approach to create or manufacture, I would say, authenticity. And a couple of them felt authentic at the beginning, but it became a formula. And she's saying that the current trend of other brands who are creating these surrealistic fantasy landscapes for their image is the antithesis to this realism, authentic approach of marketing.
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B
I totally dis. I mean, I love that this episode is becoming something around brand. And we can probably take this off screen, but I totally disagree with this take.
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A
No, I love it.
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B
I totally disagree with this take. I think that what Labuu Boo and K Pop Demon Hunters and all of these really kind of showcase is that people want multi dimensionality. They want, you know, like this sort of brand tension. Creative tension. Yeah, right. It's ugly, but it's cute. It's innocent, but it's mischievous.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
It's fun, but it's kind of dark. Like I feel like this sort of multi dimensionality people want and I think that sort of lifts it up from like flatness, you know, like, oh, this person is fun, so they must be young and good and always good, you know, like the main character of K Pop Demon Hunters is like, she's good, but she has an evil side, you know, And I feel like that sort of multi dimensionality is so. Is very fast emerging when people want this sort of like 360 view of a person, like good and bad, you know, like pretty. I think it's even more authentic. So like, I think that, you know, it's not about. If you're talking about escapism, then you're talking about ideals. Right. Oh, the princess who always looks amazing and has never done anything wrong, like, like the main character of K Pop Demon Hunter's roomie, she did many things wrong.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like she went behind her friend's back. She actually like, you know, like hid things from them.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And all of that stuff. So I don't know, I think multidimensionality in brand is going to be even more important.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I don't think it's about. Yeah, yeah.
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A
I think the other thing is tension.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, like having tension in something makes it. Oh, I would. I might even say contradiction. So on one hand this character seems perfect or cute or beautiful or smart or what have you. And on the other hand, the same character having a quality on an element that's contradictory to the idealistic aspect of it and then might show a more real side of that individual or that scenario. But having that tension or even contradiction makes it interesting because, you know, you don't have to be so perfect to be a demon hunter or a hero, what have you, you know, having that contradiction is in a way realistic because, you know, not nothing is perfect and nobody is perfect. Right. Yeah. So whether it's in the form of these animated characters in Demon Hunters or Labuvu, this ugly cute character who's got a cutie, cutie side, cutesy side, as well as mischievous side, makes it more. More real and then perhaps more relatable. So to counter argue that the article that I just shared, you know, they were saying that relatability or authenticity is relatability. But actually whether it's escapism or not, it's the contradiction that exists in the real world even within that individual, makes that character or that person more interesting and potentially relatable.
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B
Yeah. A Hundred percent. I think, I think that's interesting. And you know, the question becomes how can a brand or a person or a company kind of express that multidimensionality? Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I think that becomes the, I think the brand strategy going forward for a lot of companies. Right. I think it's no longer we are xyz. Like, you know, I feel like it's. And I think traditional brands try to preserve that careful mirage. Yeah, yeah, right. And they spend a lot of effort to be like, we're always this. But I think that's not the. I don't think that's the case going forward. I think that's not what people want.
- [19:52]
A
Going back to the point that the background about this K Pop Demon Hunters and how Sony made it for $100 million and sold it for 20 million. So people who were involved in that deal on both sides, on the Sony side, I guess they really didn't see the value. And on the Netflix side, they either saw the value and thought, oh, this is a bargain and. Or maybe a combination that they didn't think that it was that big of a. That it would be that such a big hit and thought that 20 million is all they can pay and. But now it's become, it's poised to become the number one future. Just. It's kind of mind boggling, you know, it's mind blowing.
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B
Yeah. People are calling it like, oh, this would be Gen Alpha's version of Elsa or Frozen. You know, like that thing.
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A
Yes.
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B
Like it's huge. Like if you think about it, it's only been out for, I can't remember, like a month. Two months.
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A
Almost two months.
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B
Almost two months.
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A
Almost 2 months.
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B
Totally been the blockbuster that everyone.
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A
Yeah.
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B
No one could predict, like, no one could predict this blockbuster.
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A
I mean, I am frozen. I remember when it came out because it must have been what, 10, 12 years ago. Yeah. My daughter was three or four, I think at the time. And I remember taking her to, now that you mentioned it, taking her to a sing along event at one of the stadiums in New York. Yeah, yeah. And I remember, you know, I mean, I was living in Brooklyn at the time, had a chance to. I was in Japan for like a holiday. And in Japan it was such a phenomenon as well. It was just a sensation all over the world. And K Pop Demon Hunters, to your point, like might become. That is. Is sort of amazing. And it's, you know, it's a different scenario between say Frozen and Demon Hunters, but I guess the music element of it as well as the Visual element of it working side by side, but not just for kids, but it seems like for grownup grownups as well.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of a. It's. Yeah, it's an interesting phenomena. And I think for Netflix to then start breaking out into experiences becomes really interesting. Obviously, Squid game, going back to cultural stuff, this is for adults, but, you know, these started expanding that universe a little bit more with experiences and obviously merch, costumes, collaborations. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. And then it begs the question, like, Netflix formula. And this goes into the studio model, like the movie studio model, which could be an entirely new episode. But I think that's going to change real fast. Right. It's so quick. If Netflix model, which is like constant experiments, basically you're running like, I don't know how many experiments they run at a time, but like hundreds of experiments at a time to see which hits. And then if it hits, then you go big on the distribution, the experiences, the merch, whatever, versus, like the traditional movie studio who put in all their bets into, you know, one or two hits that they think will go out.
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A
Right.
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B
And then that just sort of high upfront investment becomes, you know, questionable. And obviously with AI it becomes a lot quicker to start testing concepts.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I think that's where it becomes interesting. Right. You're like, okay, let's put out like 100 concepts as a preview and see if there's any that takes off and then we'll double down. I think that becomes interesting. I don't think it takes the craft away, but it takes that sort of spirit of high upfront cost kind of a way. It kind of leaves more room for experimentation. So I think that's going to change drastically. I mean, if you talk about how AI is changing or going to change Hollywood or the movie industry, I think it's going to change it very dramatically. Yeah, extremely dramatically. Yeah, extremely dramatically.
- [24:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, just to wrap up this conversation, a couple of things that I was thinking about until that you mentioned it, I didn't know that it was Netflix full body for 20 minutes. I knew that it was Sony Entertainment that made it, but I didn't realize that they bought it only for $20 million for a movie that was made for $100 million. Yeah. And. And then the other thing is that escapism is a thing, but at the same time, like, what people relate to doesn't have to be an escapist thing to relate to. Actually, it helps them. Like, you know, in the case of Demon Hunters, Olabu there's an element of tension or contradiction that makes it in a fictional world, that makes it real, unauthentic, and therefore relatable for the audience, like my kids or even myself. Right. So, yeah, like, escapism may be a thing, but it's behind it. It's this notion of relatability that goes beyond escapism. That's sort of my. My takeaway from this conversation.
- [25:18]
B
Yes.
- [25:19]
A
Yeah. Cool. All right, so I think that's a wrap. I guess we'll have a different conversation next week.
- [25:25]
B
Nope. See you soon.
- [25:26]
A
All right. All right. Bye.
- [25:27]
B
Bye.