1 | Cottingley Fairies

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hoax! Episode 1 – Cottingley Fairies

Hosts: Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan
Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction

In the premiere episode of Hoax! co-hosted by Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan, the duo delves into one of history’s most fascinating hoaxes: the Cottingley Fairies. They set the stage by exploring why people are susceptible to believing in things that aren't true, especially in an era rife with misinformation.

Dana Schwartz [00:24]: "Every episode we sort through the lies we wish were true and truths that sound like lies."

The Cottingley Fairies Hoax Background

The episode begins with the backstory of the Cottingley Fairies, a series of photographs taken in 1917 by Elsie Wright (16) and Frances Griffiths (9), two cousins residing in Cottingley, near Bradford, England. The girls claimed to have encountered fairies by a beck (a small stream), leading them to stage photographic evidence to prove their sightings.

Lizzie Logan [02:47]: "It's the era of spirit photography, and people did not particularly know what a photograph was, like, supposed to look like."

The Girls' Photographs

Using Elsie’s father's midge camera, the girls took their first photographs, depicting Frances interacting with fairies. Despite initial skepticism from their parents, the girls persisted, producing additional photos that further convinced some of their authenticity.

Dana Schwartz [07:00]: "They take this photo and they go back to the grownups and they're like, see, we did see fairies."

Arthur Conan Doyle's Involvement

Fascinated by the photographs, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes and a prominent spiritualist, took a keen interest. He collaborated with Edward Gardner and photography expert Harold Snelling to validate the authenticity of the images. Their analysis concluded that the photos were genuine, as no evidence of manipulation was found.

Dana Schwartz [12:17]: "The fact that two young girls had not only been able to see fairies... but had actually... [materialize them] meant that it was possible that the next cycle of evolution was underway."

Skeptical Views and Criticism

Despite Doyle’s endorsements, skepticism persisted. Critics argued that the girls lacked the technical expertise to replicate such complex photographs, and some suggested that the fairies were elaborate cutouts or drawings superimposed onto the images. A notable critique came from Major John Hall Edwards, who highlighted the potential psychological impact on children believing in such phenomena.

Dana Schwartz [24:30]: "People think of hoaxes as kind of like mean tricks. But this hoax only ever was an act of kindness."

Legacy and Final Confessions

Over the decades, the Cottingley Fairies became a subject of intrigue and debate. It wasn't until the 1980s that Jeffrey Crawley, editor of the British Journal of Photography, conducted a thorough investigation. Crawley's research methodically exposed the hoax, demonstrating how the girls manipulated photographic techniques to create the illusion of fairies. Despite Crawley’s findings, Frances Griffiths maintained her belief in the fairies until her death in 1986, while Elsie admitted to the deception shortly thereafter.

Lizzie Logan [49:12]: "Dear Mr. Crawley... Feeling rather silly, we let our joke lie flat on its face..."

Conclusion and Takeaways

Dana and Lizzie conclude the episode by reflecting on the nature of hoaxes and belief. They emphasize that the Cottingley Fairies hoax wasn’t driven by financial gain but by the girls' desire to be believed and to protect each other from parental reprimand. The episode serves as a poignant reminder of how societal perceptions, personal relationships, and cultural contexts can influence the acceptance or rejection of extraordinary claims.

Dana Schwartz [56:19]: "The reason that this hoax has lasted so long is... because the guy who wrote Sherlock Holmes believed this."

Notable Quotes

• Dana Schwartz [07:00]: "They take this photo and they go back to the grownups and they're like, see, we did see fairies."
• Joe Crawley [58:07]: "Of course there are fairies, just as there is Father Christmas. The trouble comes when you try to make them corporeal."
• Elsie Hill [48:34]: "Thank you for revealing so much depth and understanding of the pickle Frances and I got ourselves into..."

Further Resources

For those intrigued by the Cottingley Fairies, the original prints and memorabilia are housed at the National Science and Media Museum in Bradford. Visitors can view the cameras used by the girls, the original photographs, and accompanying letters detailing their experiences.

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Hoax! continues to explore audacious hoaxes throughout history, uncovering the human psychology behind why we believe what we believe. Stay tuned for more episodes as Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan unravel the truths and lies that shape our perception of reality.

Transcript

[Dana Schwartz]

You are listening to Hoax, a production of I Heart Podcasts, folks. It's a hoax album.

[Lizzie Logan]

No one ever seems to believe me.

[Dana Schwartz]

When I swear I never was deceiving A blessed one dream welcome to Hoax, a new podcast.

[Lizzie Logan]

Or is it?

[Dana Schwartz]

It is.

[Lizzie Logan]

Every episode we sort through the lies we wish were true and truths that sound like lies.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is not just another scam and scandal podcast. Oh, no.

[Lizzie Logan]

These are stories of pranks and grifts throughout history so big and bold they make us question why we believe.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan.

[Dana Schwartz]

Welcome to the show, Lizzie. I am so excited that we're doing this podcast.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm thrilled. It's like the highlight of my schedule.

[Dana Schwartz]

Same. And also just an opportunity to talk about one of my favorite things, which is historical hoaxes. So just a bit about what this show is. If you're just joining us, which everyone is, because it's our first episode. If you've been here before, how time travel, I guess. Future hoax. This show is going to be me, Dana Schwartz, and Lizzie Logan. Yep. Talking through historical and modern hoaxes. Every episode will focus on a new hoax. I'm Dana. I'm a writer and a podcaster. I host the podcast Noble Blood, which is about royals throughout history. I also with iHeartRadio and the podcast Very Special Episodes. I've also written six books. I occasionally write television. I just love researching weird areas of history and talking about them, usually into a microphone. Lizzie, who.

[Lizzie Logan]

Who are you? Who am I? I'm Lizzie. I'm a comedy writer. By day, you can find me writing for Glamour magazine. By night, I'm on places like McSweeney's. I contributed for a very long time to Reductress. And I love a joke. I love a scam. I love a prank that goes far too far. I love lies and flim flams and.

[Dana Schwartz]

We'Re also real life friends.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's true.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's just like a thing that people should know going in that we are real life human friends.

[Lizzie Logan]

It is. And is this just an excuse to hang out more? Possibly.

[Dana Schwartz]

You decide. Maybe this podcast is the biggest hoax of all. I will do the research and bring the story one week and I'll do.

[Lizzie Logan]

The research and bring the story the next week. We are not in investigators so much as we are storytellers and compilers, so.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, should we get started on our first hoax?

[Lizzie Logan]

I think we should.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm very, very excited. I think the first hoax that we focused on was really Important to me. And it's one that's sort of a. Like a hoax classic. We're talking about the Cottingley fairies. Lizzie, what do you know about the Cottingly fairies to begin with?

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so everything I know about the Cottingly fairies is from a movie that I caught on TV when I was a child in the 90s.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, what movie? And starring who?

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't remember. And I didn't look it up because I wanted you to do all the research. What I remember is it was back in the days of the olden turn of the century times, and it was the era of, like, spirit photography, and people did not particularly know what a photograph was, like, supposed to look like. And, you know, your average Victorian or Edward, whatever. I'm sure you'll tell me the time period. I'm sure you'll tell me the time period. But your average Joe schmo had no idea what, like, a double exposure could be, because there just weren't that many people making photographs. And so these two little girls, who I believe were sisters, figured out a way to, like, superimpose, like, a drawing of a fairy maybe, or a photograph of someone dressed up, I don't know, onto a photograph. And they would show them to people, and nobody knew what a photo was, like, supposed to look like. So they were like, I guess it's real, because you can't take a photo of something that's not real.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay. You're like, 60% of the way. There's.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm very excited to talk to you about it because these are perfect misconceptions.

[Lizzie Logan]

The other pieces of information I believe are somewhere in my brain are that maybe one of the sisters admitted it was fake, and the other one admitted that, like, all but a couple of them were fake and maybe died insisting that she had taken a photograph of a fairy. And I'm also. I'm picturing this in, like, the Secret Garden Times.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes. Well, that. That you're accurate about it. It is Secret Garden Vibes. It's Secret Garden Vibes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

When is Secret Garden Times?

[Lizzie Logan]

Secret Garden Times is in Little Princess Times.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Little Princess Times is there's, like, a war going on.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's definitely colonialism going on. I feel like it's like a long war type situation.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, let's get into it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Let's get into it. So it's 1917.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

We're after Queen Victoria. We're after Edwardian.

[Lizzie Logan]

Where are we?

[Dana Schwartz]

So little town called Cottingley near Bradford, which is a slightly bigger Town in the top middle of England. And it's two cousins. Okay. One is named Elsie Wright and the other is Frances Griffiths. Elsie is 16 this summer. Frances is nine years old. And Frances and her mom, they had been living in South Africa and so they moved to back to England and they were staying with their cousins like while they got situated. So these little girls are living together?

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, one's 16, you said?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. So there's a little girl and then like an adult in those days.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. A girl who actually like was no longer in school and was working.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But there's still her cousin. And the two little girls like to go play at the beck. And a beck is like a little stream on the bottom of a ravine near their house.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure. Because there's no like TikTok.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's 1917. What are you gonna do? The mom was like, they made a picnic lunch and went down to the beck.

[Lizzie Logan]

That was a day kill a day doing that.

[Dana Schwartz]

Honestly, kind of a good day. I would do that now.

[Lizzie Logan]

I wouldn't, but have fun.

[Dana Schwartz]

You wouldn't have a picnic by a stream?

[Lizzie Logan]

I would maybe.

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

It seems like there would be a lot of bugs.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, well, and also you would get wet because what happened is Frances, the nine year old would come back and her pants and shoes would be wet and her mom would be mad because in those days laundry was like a huge hassle probably. But her mom was annoyed. And Frances, when her mom got mad at her, said, it's not my fault I was playing with the fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Typical nine year old excuse.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And the mom is like, very funny, go to your room. Or whatever the punishment was. And Elsie, the 16 year old said, we'll show them. They borrowed Elsie's dad's camera, which was a midge camera. And we'll get a little bit into the details of the camera.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm picturing a big box on a tripod with a hood that you put over your face.

[Dana Schwartz]

We're a little past that. It's a little smaller and a little easier than you think.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But her dad, Arthur was an amateur photographer and he had his own dark room. And so Elsie, the 16 year old, said, let's borrow my dad's camera and show the grownups what's what. And they come back and say, look, we took a picture of a fairy and I'm going to text you a picture and I want you to maybe describe what you see.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, it's really cute. Okay. So there's a girl posing in front of what looks like a waterfall. And. And she's sort of resting her elbows on some moss. And right in front of her are four fairies who are little women with big butterfly wings. And the girl maybe has a flower crown.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, that looks about right.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it says Alice and the fairies. And it's dated July 1917.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's actually Frances who's in this photo. We'll get to the name change a little later. When they publish the photos, it was for their anonymity, to protect the innocent. But it's a photo that Elsie took of her cousin Frances on this midge camera on photographic plates. It's not on film. This is just sort of the difference. It's kind of boring, but basically it's a light sensitive mixture of silver salts coated on a thin glass plate. And then when light hits them, it imprints the image really quick.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's not film, but it's not like one of those old giant cameras that requires a whole room.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But they take this photo and they go back to the grownups and they're like, see, we did see fairies. And the grownups reaction is, no, you didn't. That's very funny. How did you do that? And that causes the girls to want to double down. They're like, no, we did see fairies. And a few months later they come back with a second photo. And I'm texting you the second photo. Now, see, this is the type of.

[Lizzie Logan]

Picture I would take. She's interacting with the fairy.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is the older girl. This is Elsie, the 16 year old. And this is actually Elsie and a gnome.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes, it is labeled Iris and the gnome.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And she. So it's like a meadow and there's a woman in a hat. And she is sort of leaning forward. She's sitting down. She's leaning forward. And there's like a little. A little silly man who has a pointed hat and a ruff about his neck and I think a feather in his cap. And he's. He also maybe has wings and he's doing like a little jig.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, they're having fun.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

So at this point they come back with this photo and again their parents are like, stop messing with the camera. We don't know how you're doing it. But the dad says, give me my camera back, you can't use it anymore. But Elsie's mom, Polly, kind of believes it a little bit. Polly is a little more woo woo. She's casually a member of this thing called the Theosophical Society. Have you ever heard of that.

[Lizzie Logan]

No. I have a couple questions, but we can put a pin in them.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, no, give me questions, please.

[Lizzie Logan]

So, okay, do the adults ever think, well, why don't I go down to the Beck and see for myself? Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

And adults will continue to do that. But only children can see fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, of course.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm, like, actually a little embarrassed I had to explain that to you.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm a stupid woman. And then my other thing is more of a comment.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

If it were, like, me and I had gotten caught doing this, I would maybe, like, at this point, I would advise them to pivot to just, like, being cool, artsy photographer. Like, they have a talent.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

But it's like they have a skill.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it's that thing of when someone's not falling for your trick, you want to double down.

[Lizzie Logan]

I know, but they could just, like, make money as party photographers who then, like, make it look like you had fairies at your party anyway.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, it's a good theory if that's how they're taking these photos. I'm just saying maybe they're just taking photos of fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

They're not just liars. They had a skill.

[Dana Schwartz]

But maybe they're just taking photos of fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Lizzie, this is another thing hoax listeners should be aware of. I'm a skeptic. I'm the Scully in this relationship.

[Dana Schwartz]

As opposed to me. I actually think they're fairies. That's the thing about me. I believe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Spoiler alert.

[Dana Schwartz]

Fully confessed. I do believe there are fairies. But, yeah, so Polly is a little more woo woo, a member of this thing called the Theosophical Society, which is this weird quasi religious movement that started in 1875 that's kind of a combination of, like, philosophy, occultism, and comparative religion. And basically, I'm going to quote what like, one of their fundamental beliefs is. It's quote, forming a nucleus of universal brotherhood, of humanity without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color. And then they also believe in human evolution on Earth, but also a spiritual hierarchy of evolution where, like, there's a potential for humans to become advanced spiritual beings and fairies just sort of, like, fit into this mythology. Okay, it's now 1920, so it is two and a half years later.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Polly goes to a talk of the Theosophical Society in the nearby town, and the talk is on fairies. And afterward is just chatting with people and being like, you know, my daughter got a picture of fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

And so far it's just these two photos. So far it's just because they took the camera away.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. The dad was like, stop messing with my camera. And she's chatting and tells people her daughter took these pictures. And the woman who's doing the lecture was like, well, can I see those pictures? She's like, sure. Polly sends the pictures to that lady. They kind of get around, and they reach a man named Edward Gardner, who's a very prominent member of the Theosophical Society. Another version of the story I've read is that he saw the photos on display at an annual, like, Theosophical conference.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he sees these photos and he is thrilled about them. I'm gonna quote from him and he says, quote. The fact that two young girls had not only been able to see fairies, which others had done, obviously, of course, but had actually, for the first time, ever been able to materialize them at a density sufficient for their images to be recorded on a photographic plate, meant that it was possible that the next cycle of evolution was underway.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure. So his. His thing is less like, oh, fairies exist. It's like, oh, well, we know fairies exist, but not everyone is able to perceive them as solid in such a way that a flashbulb would.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes. And now that we have.

[Lizzie Logan]

Now that they are there.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, now that we have photographic evidence of them, that's. Something big is happening.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

He, you know, as you do, sends the photos to an expert, a photography expert.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, okay. I thought you meant a fairy expert. I was like, I feel like these people are the fairy.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's the fairy expert.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. He sends a picture to a photography.

[Dana Schwartz]

Expert, he sends them to a photography expert named Harold Snelling, and he says, the thing you can see about this photo is it actually has not been tampered with after the fact.

[Lizzie Logan]

Can I posit a theory?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I'm not gonna tell you if you're right or wrong, though.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. But I just want, on the record, if the photos haven't been tampered with after the fact, that, did they just draw pictures of fairies? And, like, I'm thinking, like, basically the old timey version of cardboard cutouts.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, that's an interesting theory, but According to Gardner, Mr. Snelling's report on the two negatives says that he is perfectly certain of two things connected to these photos, namely, one exposure only, so not a double exposure. And two, all the figures of the fairies moved during the exposure, which was instantaneous. And then this is Gardner, I'm quoting again, as I put all sorts of pressing questions to him relating to paper or cardboard figures and backgrounds and paintings and all the artifices of the modern studio. He proceeded to demonstrate by showing me other negatives in prints that certainly supported his view. So there are.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so I have the same brain as an old timey skeptic.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. But he's like, I don't know, they look like fairies to me. I don't know about it. Okay, here's a key point. Gardner wants these photos that he can display when he's giving lectures. And so he has Snelling clarify them. He basically has Snelling Photoshop them. And the photos that I showed you, basically, anytime you ever see any of these photos, the ones that are online, because they are the ones that have been published, are ones that Snelling has clarified. Okay, so.

[Lizzie Logan]

So the blurrier version is the one that was convincing these people.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly. So anytime now that anyone is looking at these photos, it's like a rudimentary photoshopped version of them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are the originals, like, on display somewhere?

[Dana Schwartz]

Not on display, but a museum does have them, so maybe they're on display. If you live near the Science and Media Museum in Bradford, I know they have a camera or two cameras that these girls used and some of the original negatives and report back because I am curious. Everything they have.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. If you could take a pic and send it to hoaxthepodcastmail.com so that's the.

[Dana Schwartz]

Key point here, is that he intensifies. The photos intensified. Is in air quotes. I'm using his word. And that's what people are looking at when they're like, oh, fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm thinking of time making O.J. blacker on the COVID being like, I'm just intensifying it.

[Dana Schwartz]

They're just intensifying the image.

[Lizzie Logan]

And you're like, deeply changing the meaning of the image.

[Dana Schwartz]

So word of these photographs gets around the spiritualist community, which brings us to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Love this guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

You love this guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Makes perfect sense that he is in these times as. I also think of them as Sherlock time.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he's butting his head in everywhere.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so we're with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Ladies man, man's man, man about.

[Dana Schwartz]

Town, man about town. A Scottish author and physician and a doctor born in Edinburgh. This is 1920. Right now, he's 61 years old, already very famous, very successful, very rich, already knighted. It's kind of devastating. He wrote Sherlock Holmes when he was the first Sherlock Holmes when he was 27.

[Lizzie Logan]

And that's all anybody ever liked.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And this is. By the time that this is happening, it's been 33 years since Sherlock Holmes Came out and, like, he's already killed Sherlock and brought him back. He's so famous. But he's also a spiritualist and really interested in psychic and paranormal phenomenon, which I actually find very endearing, because, again, this is like the. As you said, the turn of the century. And he's a scientist, and I think the idea that there's a lot out there that we don't understand is very scientific. He actually writes. I'm gonna quote him here.

[Lizzie Logan]

It definitely speaks to, like, a curiosity about the state of the world.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. But the problem is when you're bad at the science part of figuring out what's actually real, like, the curiosity is good, but then you have to examine things empirically. People think that he became a spiritualist after the death of his son in World War I. That's sort of like the conventional knowledge. His son died, and then he became interested in spirits. That's actually not true because he had been writing about spiritualism years before his son died. But spiritualism does have these spikes during, like, times of senseless death, especially among young people. Like, as you mentioned, spirit photography, which is, like, the practice of taking a photo and someone being like, ooh, look behind in the photo, there's a spirit, which was a simple double exposure. Usually.

[Lizzie Logan]

I will say, if you ever look up spirit photographs, those, to me are so much more convincing because it's just, like, blurs behind you. And I'm like, maybe that is a ghost.

[Dana Schwartz]

Maybe it is a ghost. Those started after the Civil War, those that came into main prominence. And then this is happening after World War I.

[Lizzie Logan]

Indeed.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's like these moments of, like, trauma and death and trying to make sense of it all. But, yeah, so even though he had been interested in spiritualism before, there are, like, a lot of tragedies happening around his life right now, where you're like, I understand why this man wants to think there is life behind the veil. Because his son Kingsley died in 1918 of pneumonia. His only brother, Inez died in 1919. He had a bunch of sisters, but only one brother. And then in 1920, his mother, Mary died. So it's like son, brother, mother, all quick succession. And then his dad, his dad did die earlier, but is another whole tragedy that I will get into later in the episode. So it's like this man is dealing with sad stuff, and he sees these photos and he is delighted. And, like, Edward Gardner and, like, Lizzie Logan, he's like, I'm going to go get an expert opinion. And so Doyle goes to Kodak, the Photo people.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God. A thing I've heard of.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And he says, quote, they examined the plates carefully and neither of them could find any evidence of superposition or other trick. On the other hand, they were of opinion that if they set to work with all their knowledge and resources, they could produce such pictures by natural means and therefore they would not undertake to say that these were preternatural. So basically, Kodak is like, we can't immediately see how this happened, but fairies aren't real and we could probably figure out how to do this right.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's like a lot of steps between these photos are real and fairies are real.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly. Doyle also, I think, very charmingly reaches out to a friend of his who's a clairvoyant to ask if the photos are real. And the clairvoyant is like, I think these photos were faked because I'm not seeing little girls. I'm seeing like an old bald man taking these photos. And Doyle's like, well, that, that settles that. Until Gardner's like, no, that's Snelling. That's the guy who clarified the photos. That's who the psychic is picking up on. So cross that off your list. That one is solved.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is how all of these fake psychics work is that they say something so vague that it ends up making sense because it doesn't particularly mean anything.

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[Dana Schwartz]

The other main criticism that people are bringing up is like, why do these fairies look like stereotypical fairies? Yeah, like why do they look like the fairies that like a child would imagine? And the answer, at least Conan Doyle brings up as a theory, is that these fairies are quote, thought forms, that they're manifestations of these children's imagination. And he has another theory. Maybe we're just right about how fairies look. Maybe our cultural knowledge of how fairies work comes because that's, that's how fairies Actually are. So that's explanation. He says, you know, if they are conventional, it may be that fairies have really been seen in every generation, and so some correct description of them has been retained.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, that's like using logic to back up something that is fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's the reason that I think smart people sometimes are the most susceptible to.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, joining cults and stuff.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Because you can justify things in a smart way. Because that's like, a pretty smart explanation.

[Lizzie Logan]

Actually, I think it's somewhat smart. I mean, the truly smart take would be like, yeah, these little girls made up these fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's what Conan Doyle kind of concludes. He basically says, it is clear that it was the character and surroundings of the children upon which the inquiry must turn, rather than upon the photos themselves. Basically, like, experts can't look at these photos and definitively prove they were faked. So the question is, could these girls have taken those photos? And that brings us to, I think, the big headline reason why Gardner and why Conan Doyle fundamentally believed that these photos were real, which is a combination of, like, classicism and sexism. Because basically, in a letter, Conan Doyle.

[Lizzie Logan]

Says, because girls aren't smart enough to take photos.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. He says, quote, we had certainly traced the pictures to two children of the artisan class, which means, like, their dad is working class, and such photographic tricks would be entirely beyond them. Conan Doyle basically is like, well, Snelling looked at these pictures and he thought they were real. So how could two little girls from a village have the plant and the scale to turn out a fake which could not be detected by an expert in London? And also, it was the first. They said it was the first photo these. The girls had ever taken. So they're like, they. They couldn't do it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. People don't want to believe that they've been duped.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Also, people don't like to believe that young girls are capable of things.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, hashtag believewomen. But not when they talk about fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, there's also the idea, as you said, that she had just drawn these fairies on cardboard and, like, you know, stuck them on the ground. People go to look at Elsie's art. Cause guess what? Everyone's like, Elsie's really artistic. She's always drawing a lot. She studied at a local art college.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But Doyle wrote, quote, while she could do landscapes, the fairy figures which had attempted in imitation of those she had seen were entirely uninspired and bore no possible resemblance to those in the photographs. And then later, a journalist will come to investigate, and he'll say quote as to whether she could have drawn the fairies when she was 16, I am doubtful. Lately she has taken up watercolor drawing and her work, which I carefully examined, does not reveal that ability. In a marked degree, though, she possesses a remarkable knowledge of color for an untrained artist. So a little bit of condescension.

[Lizzie Logan]

She's good at colors. This is so like the level of investigating they do on like a TV show.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm going to send you a quote from Sherlock Holmes. From Sherlock Holmes. From Sherlock Conan Doyle. This was his sort of conclusion and I would love you to read out loud his idea.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Granting the honesty of the father, which no one has ever impugned, Elsie could only have done it by cut out images which must have been of exquisite beauty, of many different models, fashioned and kept without the knowledge of her parents and capable of giving the impression of motion when carefully examined by an expert. Surely this is a large order. Yeah, see again, it's like, okay, but it's still more likely than fucking fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, you, you, you accurately described something very plausible.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, again, I. My. It's like, well, there's no way these girls could have done it. It's like, okay, so someone helps them. Like, there's so many logical leaps that either these girls did it all on their own or there's fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

Just I want to point out by the second there's going to be more photos taken. And by the time that Arthur Conan Doyle is involved. Elsie is 19.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, she could draw something.

[Dana Schwartz]

She's out of school, she's studying at a local art college. She's working as an illustrator for a local jewelers and she's a production assistant at a local photography studio. And also she does post photo coloring work at a local Christmas card factory. Well, she's good at colors, rudimentary colors for an untrained artist. But this is not. Some, like people sometimes say when they're the cotting leaf fairies, I think they're picturing like children. Children. And this is a 19 year old.

[Lizzie Logan]

I was definitely picturing like a 12 year old and a 10 year old. And this girl is a teen.

[Dana Schwartz]

So Doyle is excited about these two photos and sends Gardner. Doyle is off in Australia doing a lecture tour. So he goes, you go visit the family. And. And Gardner gives them two new cameras, Butcher and Son W. Butcher and Son Cameo folding plate cameras, which are fancier, one for each of them. And he's like, take photos. And now this gentleman and this very, very famous man have given you two very expensive cameras and Told you to go take photos of fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. At what point can the 19 year old not see fairies anymore, though? Because only kids can see fairies. Everybody knows that, Dana.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie, that is such a good point. And I'm so glad you brought this up, because as Gardner is describing this to Doyle, he says, quote, but two children such as these are.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are rare.

[Dana Schwartz]

And I fear now that we are late because almost certainly the inevitable will shortly happen. One of them will, quote, fall in love, and then, hey presto.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hey, presto. She can't see fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, mom, is he implying that if you have sex, you can't see fairies?

[Lizzie Logan]

Can only ever see fairies, obviously.

[Dana Schwartz]

So I guess that's. I guess that's what he's saying.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, I would think it would be like getting your period. You can't see fairies anymore.

[Dana Schwartz]

But I don't wanna speculate on this child's. But like, she's 19. Yeah. And also at this point, I remember how he said, like, Frances, the little girl, they were only living with them. Cause they had like, just moved back.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Have they moved away now?

[Dana Schwartz]

They've moved a little bit away now. And of course they write. Arthur Conan Doyle says, like, one of our difficulties is that the associated aura of the two girls is necessary. Quote, this joining of auras to produce a stronger effect than either can get singly is common enough in psychic matters. And so we need the combined power of both the girls to see the bears.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, that actually does make sense to me because I don't know if you know this, but you and I, Dana, when we get together, we are so stupid that we cannot figure out how to use a slot machine or.

[Dana Schwartz]

Or find a car that is completely accurate.

[Lizzie Logan]

Our combined auras are dumb as hell.

[Dana Schwartz]

Dumb as hell. Well, so now. Now that Elsie is 19, she goes to with these brand new cameras and takes three more photos for Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Gardiner. And I just sent you two of the photos.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, you know what this reminds me of?

[Dana Schwartz]

And here's the third photo.

[Lizzie Logan]

A little bit when you were talking about people underestimating women. Yeah. Is when Taylor Swift had to write a whole album by herself to prove that she wrote her own music.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Yeah. These are the Speak Now. The Speak now. Speak now, folks.

[Lizzie Logan]

It is enchanted. Ha ha ha.

[Dana Schwartz]

I actually do think these photos are better than the original.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. Okay, so there's fairy offering flowers to Iris.

[Dana Schwartz]

And that's Elsie, the older girl.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes, a girl sort of gazing at a branch. And on the branch stands a woman wearing like a very cute dress.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's like, also a very chic, like, 1920s style.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's like a little flapper. It's got a drop waist for sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

And she has, like, a little bobcat. Yeah. You could say, well, maybe the fairies see human fashion and are like, I like this.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Or, of course, if you're giving them form by imagining them, you give them a good outfit.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Then there's Alice and Leaping Fairy, which is the younger girl, and she's in a thicket. And there is a fairy who is indeed leaping near her shoulder. All right. Fairy, sunbath, comma, elves, comma, etc. This one is the realest looking to me because it's blurry and it's kind of hard to tell what's going on.

[Dana Schwartz]

There are no girls in it.

[Lizzie Logan]

There's no humans in it. There's just, like, a bramble and some flowers, and then one woman, and she's wearing, like, a flowy dress. And then I. I guess, like, some more flowy fabric is maybe caught in the branches.

[Dana Schwartz]

So obviously, Conan Doyle sees these photos.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's like, yeah, these are real.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's like, these are real. He publishes an article December 1920, in the Strand Magazine, which is, like, a general interest magazine that had also published Sherlock Holmes stories. And the headline is, Fairies Photographed an Epoch Making Event Described by a Conan Doyle. The first article is just the first two photos, and he changed their names to Alice and Iris to protect their anonymity.

[Lizzie Logan]

Good names.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then in March 1921, he publishes these next three photos, the evidence for fairies, with more fairy photographs. And then.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, I have a question.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are these second batch of photos also touched up by Mr. Mr. Snelling?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes, they are.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Just to make sure, you know, touched up for display and for resale, then he publishes a book called the Coming of the Fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

A whole book?

[Dana Schwartz]

A whole. Well, here's what I'll say. I read this book.

[Lizzie Logan]

You're a good woman, Dana.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, no, it's a very, very short book.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, you're like, man, you could just write a book so fast. Because this book is a very short b. A big old chunk of it is just the full text of the article he wrote for the Strand. And then also a lot of this book is just letters from Gardner. And then part of this book is a full article that someone else wrote criticizing the fairies. And then he was like, this is an accurate critique, which is like a good.

[Lizzie Logan]

Criticizing the existence or being like, these fairies aren't very good role models.

[Dana Schwartz]

Criticizing the photos, saying the Photos are a hoax, basically. Like, he was.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's who I want to hang out with.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he was. Giving the book the coming of the fairies does do both sides thing, but so it also has this long article by someone kind of pointing out that it possibly is a hoax, but that Conan Doyle was like, these are fair points. And then at the end is just a lot of letters from people saying, like, I've also seen fairies. So it's like he wrote a book, but, like, he wrote a book.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. It's more like the collected works of people who believe in fairies and one person who doesn't.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's more just like a research dossier for this episode.

[Lizzie Logan]

Fantastic.

[Dana Schwartz]

It was very helpful. But, yeah. So he writes this book, and basically at the end, even with his, like, just asking questions vibe, he clearly thinks they're fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Team fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he does say, quote, I do not myself contend that the proof is as overwhelming as in the case of spiritualistic phenomena. So he's like, other. There's other proof. That's better.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's like ghosts, for sure. Fairies probably.

[Dana Schwartz]

Far from being resented, such criticism, so long as it is earnest and honest, must be most welcome to those whose only aim is the fearless search for the truth. Just asking questions. The response to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle publishing a book about fairies and an article about fairies is not entirely positive. Instead, I'm going to show you a political cartoon that I would love you to describe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. This political cartoon, it's a old man, I guess. Arthur.

[Dana Schwartz]

That is Arthur Conan Doyle. Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. So he's very large, and he's sitting on a stool, and he has smoke about his head.

[Dana Schwartz]

He has his head in the clouds.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he has shackles on his ankles, and the chain is being held by a guy in a robe, and he's smoking a pipe, and he has an intense widow's peak, and, I don't know, Satan.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's Sherlock Holmes, my friend. Poor Sherlock Holmes has to be shackled to this dodo.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, there are certain characters who I wish existed apart from their authors, so I kind of get it.

[Dana Schwartz]

And this headline from the San Francisco Examiner, Lizzie's from San Francisco, says, poor Sherlock Holmes, hopelessly crazy. That's not a very nice headline. Conan Doyle, who has been victimized by transparent spirit frauds, now offers photographic evidence that fairies really exist, just like the storybooks.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hey, listen, there's authors I wish would stop listening to certain crazy people.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, the public response is not, oh, my God, fairies are real. It's, look at this stupid author. Yes, People are mostly embarrassed and making fun of Doyle.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which I do think is public. Yeah. And I think is also an important point in hoaxes that we think if someone said, you know, cottingly fairies, oh, what a hoax they are like, oh, they fooled the world. But that's really not the case. They just fooled some people.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

And that happens all the time. And the one article that I told you that he. Conan Doyle, in his own book, published, like, a very long article critique, and it ended with a really good burn, which is knowing children and knowing that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle has legs, I decide that the Ms. Carpenters have pulled one of them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cute.

[Dana Schwartz]

Cute. Carpenters was also, like, the name that he changed from. Right. For his article. And the London newspaper Truth wrote for the true explanation of these fairy photographs. What is wanted is not a knowledge of occult phenomena, but a knowledge of children. So it's kind of like you said right at the beginning. One guy, Major John Hall Edwards, who was also. Was a photographer and a pioneer of medical X ray, was like, I have no hesitation in saying these photos could have been faked. And also, it's dangerous because putting such absurd ideas into the minds of children will result in later life in, quote, manifestations and nervous disorder and mental disturbances. So he's taking it even a little far.

[Lizzie Logan]

I have a question. Yeah. Are the girls at this point, are they, like, getting rich off of this? Like, what are they getting out of this other than they're, I would assume, having fun duping people?

[Dana Schwartz]

No. What they're getting out of this is annoyed. The main reporter who wrote this long takedown comes to Elsie's job, and to quote the article, he says, like her parents, she just said she had nothing to say about the photographs and singularly enough, used the same expression as her father and mother. I am fed up with the thing. So, you know, journalists keep coming to them, and they're just done. And also no money, because Arthur Conan Doyle did write. When he first heard about the photos, he wrote separately to Elsie, the older girl, and her dad, and sent Elsie a book which, like, she loved and was, like, really honored by. And he said, can I buy the negatives? And the dad just gave it to him for free because he's like, okay, if this is, like, a prank my daughters are doing, I don't want to benefit financially. Like, we're not sure. We're not trying to hoax anyone. We're not trying to scam anyone. And if fairies are real, then, like, we don't want to profit from that. So they Just gave the negatives for free. So the girls are getting nothing except annoyed and embarrassed at school.

[Lizzie Logan]

If you're not even making money, like, just say you lied. Like, just give it up.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know, we're gonna get to the later legacy, but I wanna take one brief, tiny detour back to Arthur Conan Doyle's dad.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mentioned that there was a tragedy. Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

His dad. Did a fairy kill him?

[Dana Schwartz]

His dad, Charles Altman Doyle, was an illustrator, and he went to a, quote, lunatic asylum. He was an artist that, like, drank himself into oblivion and was in and out of asylums and died in a lunatic asylum in 1893. But he was always, even by the time he was institutionalized, drawing mythical creatures, including fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. And did they look like these fairies?

[Dana Schwartz]

They did, kind of. I mean. Cause kind of this is just, like, how people draw fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Just stereotypical fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

But people, I think, like to make something of the fact that, like, Doyle's poor mad father had seen fairies, and now Doyle is, like, really trying to convince the world that they were real.

[Lizzie Logan]

And.

[Dana Schwartz]

And there's an article from Lapham's Quarterly, like, a very short article, but at the end of that talks about Arthur Conan Doyle's dad. And at the end it says, I'm no Doyle expert, but here's where my mind goes. Conan Doyle's belief in fairies was an act of revelation and forgiveness, a veiled acknowledgment of his father's secret world.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's so sweet that he didn't want to. He was like, my dad wasn't crazy. He just saw these things no one else could see.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's so sweet. And, like, if we were making a biopic and, like, Benedict Cumberbatch, like, I think, like, starring Benedict Cumberbatch, there'd be the scene where, like, he's reading the criticisms of everyone being, like, doyle is an adult. Like, fairies aren't real. And then he, like, goes to visit his dad in the asylum and sees the fairy drawings. It's sweet, but I don't actually think it's true because his dad died 25 years before this, so. And he also, like, was never close with his dad and, like, didn't have a relationship with his dad. So maybe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, maybe here's what I'll say.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

If you go to the Moulin Rouge in Paris and you drink absinthe, you can see a fairy, and she is Kylie Minogue.

[Dana Schwartz]

And she is Kylie Minogue. And these are sort of Kylie Minogue genre fairies.

[Lizzie Logan]

They could totally be played by Kylie Minogue. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

So later, after all this Conan Doyle, you know, writes his articles. Gardner visits the girls in Cottingley one more time with more cameras and more photographic plates and also brings like an occultist friend of his and he wants more photos. And the girls are like, oh no, can't. No more. This time the weather's not cooperating. And as he said, as Arthur Condyle writes, the fates were most unkind and a combination of circumstances stood in the way of success. But the girls are like, oh no, yeah, we can still see the fairies. And the occultist that Gardner brought was like, yeah, I see fairies everywhere. Here, there are definitely fairies here.

[Lizzie Logan]

Or he has glaucoma.

[C]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[E]

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[Dana Schwartz]

And so for the next kind of few decades, people more or less forget about this. Occasionally people will interview the girls and they sort of hint at the, the fact that it wasn't real. They, they don't come out and say it was a hoax, but they say things like, oh, it was just we were photographing our thoughts.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's cute. I also wish they would say how they did it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So that's sort of where we're at for the next few decades until the 80s.

[Lizzie Logan]

The 1980s.

[Dana Schwartz]

The 1980s. And we're introducing a man named Jeffrey Crawley, who's the editor of the British Journal of Photography.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are the girls dead at this point?

[Dana Schwartz]

They are not, but they're really old. They're 70s and 80s.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Jeffrey Crawley is like, look, I'm gonna start from square one and examine this scientifically. And he writes a 10 part series for the British Journal of Photography from 1982 to 1983, exposing them as fakes incredibly methodically, using the exact same cameras and the exact same lenses, figuring out exactly objectively how you would have made the photos look like that. And he's kind of the first one who goes back to the original negatives and sees the way they're blurry in the way that they were before Snelling clarified them and figures out painstakingly that they were, in fact, hoaxes.

[Lizzie Logan]

This is the type of stuff I love. I love the scene in Apollo 13 where they have all the stuff that the astronauts have on board and they have to figure out how to make an air filter. I love when you just, like, get the gear and try to make the thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

That is exactly what he's doing. He gets the original cameras.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. And.

[Dana Schwartz]

And figures it out.

[Lizzie Logan]

I love that he's got.

[Dana Schwartz]

We're. I'm going to go through the explanation, but I just think it's very, very sweet that the New York Times, in his obituary, he was just so nice about it in this takedown. He, like, isn't mean, or he's an expert who's not.

[Lizzie Logan]

It sounds like he was impressed. He was like, you did a really good job faking these photographs.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then his New York Times obituary headline is, Jeffrey Crowley 83 diesel gently deflated a Fairy Hoax. And at the end of his article, he wrote, of course there are fairies, just as there is Father Christmas. The trouble comes when you try to make them corporeal. They are fine poetic concepts taking us out of this at times too ugly. Real world. At least Elsie gave us a myth which has never harmed anyone. And he also gives Elsie her props, which no one else has, and says, how many professed photographers can claim to have equaled her achievement with the first photograph they ever took?

[Lizzie Logan]

That's so nice. This podcast is not that nice.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he's so nice. And Crawley receives a letter dated February 17, 1983, from a woman named Elsie Hill, maiden name wright, who was 81 years old.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And she says, I am going to send you a quote, and please read.

[Lizzie Logan]

This is way more heartwarming than I thought it would be. Dear Mr. Crawley, thank you for your letter revealing so much depth and understanding of the pickle Frances and I got ourselves into that day when our practical joke fell flat on its face, when no one would believe we had got pictures of real fairies. Just imagine if they had. The joke would have ended there and then, but instead, the laugh was on us both. Feeling rather silly, we let our joke lie flat on its face till some years later, when Conan Doyle came into.

[Dana Schwartz]

It, which is basically what happened with these kids got annoyed. They figured out how to fake these fairy photographs, wanting to fool their parents. And when their parents didn't even pretend to be fooled, not even like, oh, my God, fairies are Real. The girls would have been like, we tricked you.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

But instead they were like, no, they're real.

[Lizzie Logan]

And all this because they wouldn't stop getting wet.

[Dana Schwartz]

Cause they wouldn't stop playing in the splashing in the stream.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, who hasn't been there? But.

[Dana Schwartz]

Right. It's like they just wanted to be able to, like, put their hands up and say, like, I fooled you. And their parents didn't let them do that. And so then they were like, well, now what? The answer, which you figured out right away is she was an amazing. She was a really good artist and she just copied fairies from a book onto cardboard, drew them and used hat pins to plant them around the girls.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then they maybe wiggled in the wind and suddenly the fairies and also.

[Dana Schwartz]

The originals were blurry. The negatives were later clarified. So when people see movement, they're probably, like, seeing things that are kind of confusing. And what's also kind of happening is like, it's a simple trick that then is layered on this clarification. So, like, even experts are like, oh, well, it kind of looks weird in a way I can't quite put a finger on, to be clear.

[Lizzie Logan]

If you haven't looked these up yet, they look extremely two dimensional. Yeah, they do. Not in any. Like, if you had made a little figurine, it would have more depth than shadowing. Yes, they look like pictures, but someone scanned.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a classic case of people believing what they want to believe. This situation where I think people today like the fallacy that people in the past were dumb and that we look at these photos and you're like, oh, it's so obvious they're two dimensional. But if you have this religious worldview and these photos validate that worldview, you're going to want to see the. The evidence of that. But, yeah, she just used hat pins and then threw it all in the stream. And I also want to point out that something that you said at the beginning of this episode, which is true to some degree, which is like, well, cameras were kind of new, so people just saw a picture and were like, that's real. Yes, to some degree. But I guess now, like, people just believe AI slop on Facebook no matter what. But also the idea that, like, people were rubes about cameras is also kind of a misconception because double exposure was like a known thing. Like in advertising, cameras were being advertised for their abilities to take trick photographs. Like, it was a known thing that you could do.

[Lizzie Logan]

I am wrong.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, it's like, it's a nuanced.

[Lizzie Logan]

Thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

Because also, people aren't monoliths. Some people are gullible, some people aren't.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, there is that quote. That's like, any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. The one little.

[Lizzie Logan]

I still think everyone who believed this is stupid, though.

[Dana Schwartz]

The one little, like, fun tidbit that I do love is that the illustrations that Elsie copied were from a popular children's book called Princess Mary's Gift Book.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sounds really good.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's like an anthology of stories for children with illustrations. And one of those stories in the anthology book was by a Mr. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God. He didn't even recognize. If he had bought that book, he would have been like, hey, if he.

[Dana Schwartz]

Had written his own book.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, this is in the. In the Sherlock version of this. That's how someone would convince him, be like, you stupid man. This has been on your shelf the entire time.

[Dana Schwartz]

He never read it because it was for girls.

[Lizzie Logan]

It was dumb and for girls.

[Dana Schwartz]

So basically, I mean, what had happened, like we said, was like, these girls wanted to fool their parents. When their parents weren't fooled, they got mad and they doubled down. And then this, like, really rich, famous, impressive man came to them. And they were 16 and embarrassed and didn't know what to do. Felt like they were in too deep. And also, when the. The articles come out, people are, like, making fun of them, and Elsie and Frances get together and they decide that they're going to wait until Conan Doyle and Gardner die before they tell anyone. Okay, interesting. They felt bad, literally. In the letter that Elsie wrote to Crawley, she goes, I was also feeling sad for Conan Doyle. We had read in the newspapers of his getting some jarring comments. First about his interest in spiritualism, now laughter about his belief in our stories. He had recently lost his son in the war, and the poor man was probably trying to comfort himself with unworldly things. So they just feel bad for him. So they decide that they're going to wait until they die before they tell the story. Conan Doyle dies in 1930 when he's 71. Gardner, the theosophist, doesn't die until he's 99 years old. Literally almost 100, until 1969. Dang, we went to the moon in 1969.

[Lizzie Logan]

But they don't reveal themselves afterward. They wait another decade.

[Dana Schwartz]

They wait. Basically, it's this awkward thing where then Elsie wants to confess and Frances doesn't want to disenchant her daughter and Grant and then granddaughter because they believe in fairies. But they're giving. And also, people kind of just don't have interest at this point, so they don't want to, like, do some big expose. In 1982, Francis talks privately to this man named Joe Cooper for a series in the Unexplained. And then, without Francis permission, he publishes it, like, as the Confession. And then Frances admits in the Times of London the hoax. But Frances, who was the younger girl at the time, you are entirely correct. She maintains until the end of her life that she did see fairies. And actually that the last photo, that sort of one that you found the most convincing, that mysterious, blurry photo, does show real fairies, and she says that she took it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Elsie, the older girl, says all of the photos were faked, and also she took the last photo. And they both might be right because Crawley, the investigator, thinks that one was a double exposure, that they accidentally. They each took half a photo. That was his theory. So, I mean, Frances dies in 1986, Elsie dies in 1988. There's a very charming segment on Antiques Roadshow where Frances's daughter and granddaughter bring in the original camera and photos and are like, yep, our mom and grandma believed till the end of her life that she saw fairies, which is sweet. The National Science and Media Museum in Bradford, which I mentioned, has the original prints and three cameras and letters and watercolor sketches of fairies. So if you live near there, visit it and let us know. There are a few takeaways from this that I just want to kind of point out. First, the thing that we sort of established is that, like, we think people are dumb in the past, but they're not. Some people are gullible. Some people aren't always. But the reason that this hoax has stood to be fair.

[Lizzie Logan]

Can I just say, yes, I do believe people were dumb in the past. I just also think they're dumb now.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's very fair. Thank you.

[Lizzie Logan]

So that's what I mean.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thank you for that clarification.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, continue.

[Dana Schwartz]

The reason that this hoax has, like, lasted for 100 years isn't because people believed it so much, but kind of for the opposite reason. I think the reason that the cottingly fairies hoax has lasted so long is it's because. Isn't it crazy that the guy who wrote Sherlock Holmes believed this? Yes, that's crazy. That's, like, why this is a famous hoax. Not that it's so plausible. And the other thing that I do think is a good reminder for this episode, and just hoaxes in general, is people think of hoaxes as Kind of like mean tricks. But this hoax only ever was an act of kindness. Like, the reason that Elsie made the fairies in the first place was because her little cousin was getting in trouble from her mom. Her mom was mad at her for falling in the stream. And so she's like, we'll show her. And then they felt bad for Conan Doyle and Gardiner. They were embarrassed. So, like, it was a hoax out of, like, British politeness you had brought up before, benefiting financially. The girls did not, but the men involved. Absolutely.

[Lizzie Logan]

A book and a lecture series, reproductions.

[Dana Schwartz]

Of the photos were made for sale at a cost of two shillings, sixpence. And the profits from that sale was divided between three men, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edward Gardiner and Harold Snelling. And apparently, quote, Doyle seems to have stuck out for his rights to a larger share in any profits, since, as he pointed out, the exercise really rested on the article in the Strand. That's from Crawley's expose.

[Lizzie Logan]

He does seem to be the one making this a thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

There is zero profit for Elsie and Frances. Allegedly, Doyle gave them each £20 in bonds, which, like, is not that much. So not only did Elsie profit, it was actually actively bad for her. She gets fired from her job at the card factory because there's always. There's too many calls from interviewers. And also, possibly she refused to let them use one of the photographs on a Christmas card. And also she loses confidence in her own art because, remember, all of these exposes about people arguing whether these photos are real or not is all people being like. And, yeah, we've seen her art and it's kind of shitty. So I wouldn't believe it. She's probably not capable of it. Like the people defending and believing the hoax, it rested on her own art being shitty.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, again, this is why, and I totally understand the, like, altruistic reasons that they didn't, where I'm like, ladies demand credit for the thing you're good at, which is making these photos like you are good at art.

[Dana Schwartz]

She even sort of sassily writes in that 1983 letter to Crawley, this large nursing home was built by the Theosophist association entirely from the proceeds of money from copy photo of the Cottingley Fairies booklet costing half a million pounds. Frances is a widow, and I expect she thought it a bit ironical as I sat mending flaws in cloth in a weaving mill far across the sea because she moved to the United States, while at the same time Mr. Gardner, who was a Theosophist, was on a fully paid tour of the Universities all over the USA telling our fairy story. So even when Elsie kind of tried to profit, she couldn't. In 1972, she tried to sort of, like, break the news and sell her mementos to Sotheby's in London, but they declined because they only dealt with, quote, very ancient documents. So even when they tried to make some money, they couldn't. And I posit to you, then, who is the real scammer here?

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, did they only ask Sotheby's? I feel like Ripley's would have bought it. Like, there's more than one place that buys old stuff.

[Dana Schwartz]

You really should have advocated for them.

[Lizzie Logan]

I just say, like, I feel like I just want to give them so much advice.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Who is the real hoaxter? I guess it was like, the society that turned it from, like, a prank to Into a hoax by trying to disseminate this as, like, real information.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

But I also just don't think that people should lie. So, like, that's why I'm slightly less generous toward the girls, even though they had such nice aims, where I'm just like, but it's a lie.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a lie. But it's like, isn't that what what little girls do to their parents?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, but then when you're not a little girl anymore, you say, oh, by the way, I made that up.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I think they were just embarrassed and in too deep, which, like, imagine if, like a famous. Like the most famous acclaimed authority, you told a lie, and then he was defending you, and who's, like, the equivalent of a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, like a popular and also esteemed author.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't know. I mean, I get being embarrassed. Imagine if I was 12.

[Dana Schwartz]

Imagine if you made a little prank when you were 12, and then Ann Patchett was like, oh, my God, Lizzie, this is brilliant. Thank you for reinforcing my worldview. I'm gonna write a whole book about how right you are.

[Lizzie Logan]

I would be like, someone needs to help Ann. Patrick. I'm also honest to a fault. Like, in circles where I am known, I am known as being rather blunt.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which is, I think, is a good thing. I really relate to being too embarrassed to tell the truth. The difference, I think, with us is I very much am so scared of confrontation that if I did get caught in a lie, it would be really hard for me to admit the truth. But that's why I wouldn't lie in the first place, because the thought of it makes me really anxious.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. These days, I only lie for Fun.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's what they were doing.

[Lizzie Logan]

They were trying to get out of trouble.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that was so fun. The older one was definitely also having fun. She was borrowing her dad's camera.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Drawing fairies. I mean, again, they had no TikTok. What were they supposed to do? They were drawing fairies on cardboards and sticking them into the ground with hat pins. It sounds fun. So, Lizzy, you've seen a movie about this? They've made at least two. One called A True Story starring Peter o', Toole, and then one called Photographing Fairies with Ben Kingsley. You presumably saw one of those.

[Lizzie Logan]

I feel like I saw the first one. When did the first one come out?

[Dana Schwartz]

1997.

[Lizzie Logan]

That sounds right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Who would you cast in this movie?

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, well, in my movie, they are sisters.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

And we're making.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, simplify, simplify. For the first time.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm sorry, we need to simplify. And in my movie, we're making this 15 years ago.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, it's like, it's a modern. Like a. Not Secret Garden Times.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, it is Secret Garden. What I'm trying to say is the Fanning sisters, but I need them to be younger.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, I. So I made this movie 15 years ago. I said it in Secret Garden Times. I made both the girls young, and I cast the Fanning sisters.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm casting young. If we can do young. I'm casting young Kirsten Dunst as the older sister. Cute.

[Lizzie Logan]

Very cute.

[Dana Schwartz]

Because I think that era, Kirsten Dunst, is kind of perfect for this.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. Who else?

[Dana Schwartz]

You need a Gardner, and you need an Arthur Conan Doyle, and I need a Snelling. I'm doing a Conan Doyle as Benedict Cumberbatch as a Sherlock. Nodded.

[Lizzie Logan]

I feel like Kristen Wiig as Polly.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Like a little kooky.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, she's like, I don't know, maybe.

[Dana Schwartz]

John C. Reilly as Snelling.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure. John C. Reilly as Snelling. Kenneth Branagh as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, that's good. That's good.

[Lizzie Logan]

And, yes, I lifted that from his Poirot, but it worked.

[Dana Schwartz]

Do you think you would have fallen for this?

[Lizzie Logan]

No, but I also. I'm scared of conflict in the way that I don't like to call people out for lying.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, you would have been dunking on Conan Doyle on Twitter, maybe, but I.

[Lizzie Logan]

Would have only if everybody else was doing it, too. Like, I never. I would never be the person to be, like, whistleblower. I would just be like, oh, like, cool pictures. I don't know. You know, What? I mean, like, I would never. Because if. If it turns out that it was real, I would feel so stupid that fairies exist.

[Dana Schwartz]

The. The world order has been upended.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't know.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. No, I mean, absolutely correct. You don't want to be the one person who doesn't realize that fairies aren't real.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, thank you so much for listening to our pilot episode. You should follow me on Instagram Aina Schwartz with three Z's at the end and follow the show's Instagram at Hoax the Podcast if you have any questions, comments photos of you with fairies at this museum with the camera, you should email Hoax the Podcast. Lizzie, where can the people find you?

[Lizzie Logan]

They can find me online at Lize Z Z I E L O G A N across most, if not all platforms. Send us your hoaxes. Send us your pictures of fairies.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thanks for listening. More hoaxes to come by.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoax is a production of I Heart Podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Noam Scriffin and Jesse Bunk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

[E]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[D]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[D]

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[Dana Schwartz]

They both taste great so make the.

[Lizzie Logan]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[C]

To approval in available locations Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenics, is back with Season four. Join me, Martine Hackett, as we explore the realities of life with Myasthenia gravis or MG and chronic Inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, or cidp. We'll uncover the stories of resilience and self advocacy in the face of uncertainty. From overcoming misdiagnosis to finding empowerment in small victories, these are moments that change us. Here's a glimpse of what's in store.

[Dana Schwartz]

Whenever I go to my specialist, he mentions the R word Remission.

[Lizzie Logan]

Is it possible? Like, is it over?

[Dana Schwartz]

But also knowing it's never really over, but just being able to say, hey, there's light at the end of the tunnel. Stay the course.

[Lizzie Logan]

Don't give up on yourself. Every single person living with the autoimmune illness has a life worth living, and.

[Dana Schwartz]

It'S up to you to define that, to capture that, and to go guns blazing.

[C]

Follow and listen to Untold Stories on the Ice Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.