Joice Heth

Summary

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Hoax! — Episode Summary

Podcast: Hoax!

Hosts: Dana Schwartz & Lizzie Logan
Episode: "Joice Heth"
Date: February 16, 2026
Main Theme:
This episode dives deep into one of P.T. Barnum's earliest—and darkest—hoaxes: the exhibition of Joice Heth, an elderly enslaved Black woman fraudulently billed as the 161-year-old nurse of George Washington. Co-hosts Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan examine the mechanics of the hoax, its deep entanglement with American racism, Barnum's showbiz strategies, and the broader question of why people are so eager to be fooled. The conversation is candid, researched, and unflinching about the exploitation at the heart of Barnum's success.

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Episode Structure & Key Insights

1. Introduction — A Candid, Script-less Start

• The hosts joke about doing the episode “blind” without a script, showcasing their natural banter and pacing.
• “We thought we had memorized it, and we mostly did.” (Lizzie, 03:18)
• Dana reveals “very, very exciting news” that today’s episode covers P.T. Barnum himself, the “hoaxer of all hoaxers.” (03:31–03:46)

2. Pop Culture vs. Reality: Barnum in The Greatest Showman

• Discussion on the inaccuracy and sanitized depiction of Barnum in pop culture.
• “I think I already knew too much about P.T. Barnum that I couldn’t, like, do the suspension of disbelief.” (Dana, 04:22–04:40)
• The hosts’ ambivalence toward historically inaccurate adaptations—enjoyable as fiction, but problematic when real people’s reputations are laundered.

3. Warning & Context — Racism and Exploitation

• Dana issues a clear warning: “This episode is going to feature a lot of historical racism and very uncomfortable racism sometimes.” (05:58–06:17)
• Clarifies the focus is not a Barnum overview, but an in-depth look at his first big hoax, and its roots in slavery (06:27–06:42).

4. Setting the Stage: P.T. Barnum’s Early Life

• In 1835, Barnum is a struggling 25-year-old in New York who learns about Joice Heth—a Black woman claimed to be 161 years old and George Washington’s former nurse—being exhibited for profit. (06:56–08:52)
• The “bootstrap” mythos of Barnum: “He dreamed himself into — I’m gonna say greatness...without any moral judgment.” (Dana, 07:43)

5. Introducing Joice Heth (08:52–10:04)

• Heth is displayed as a near-mythic figure, reinforcing nostalgia for the Founding Fathers and appealing to Americans’ desire for proximity to historical “greatness.”
• The show mixes credulity (“freak show” spectacle) with patriotic sentiment.

Quote:
“She’s a specimen in and of herself.” (Dana, 09:00)

6. The Mechanics of the Hoax

• Exhibition details: Heth, an elderly, semi-paralyzed, blind, Black woman with extreme physical features, is displayed as Washington’s wet nurse (10:12–10:51).
• The “proof” — a suspicious bill of sale dated 1727; biological impossibilities in the narrative (e.g. nursing George Washington at age 59) (12:12–13:31).
• Barnum as manipulator: “A lot of our sources on this are Barnum’s own writings, which changed multiple times throughout his life.” (Dana, 14:07)

7. Commercialization and Spectacle

• Barnum leases Heth using a “loophole,” as slavery is outlawed in New York but not in practice. (14:36–15:41)
• Promotional techniques emphasized her extreme age and her supposed personal connection to Washington, exploiting both “freak show” and patriotic impulses (16:12–17:34).

8. Audience Reactions & Moral Controversy

• Heth is objectified as both “national curiosity” and a “freak.”
• $0.25 admission (children half price); she is unpaid, working 10–12 hour days. (22:00–23:12)
• Mixed responses: Many are enthralled or find her “mummy-like,” while some abolitionists and moralists criticize her exploitation, though often in self-serving or racist terms. (24:06–25:14)
  Quote:
  “Why she who nursed the father of our country... should at the close of her life be exhibited as our rarer monsters are.. Is there not philanthropy enough... to take care of her, although her skin be black?” — Henry Cole (24:13)

9. Barnum’s Showbiz Tactics: Manipulating the Narrative

• Adjusting the pitch: In areas hostile to slavery, Barnum claims proceeds go to anti-slavery causes (untrue) (23:52–24:10).
• When interest wanes, he promotes conspiracies (e.g. that Heth is a “mechanical automaton”) to reignite public fascination. (30:55–31:44) Quote:
  “It’s like, the fastest way to get a right answer on the Internet is, like, say the wrong thing.” — Dana (31:21)

10. The Grisly Climax: Public Autopsy

• Upon Heth’s death, Barnum stages a public autopsy (charging double the usual price) as a last spectacle, where a surgeon reveals she was likely not older than 80. (33:36–34:08) Quote:
  “Let the woman rest in peace. Like, she had no dignity in life, and now she will have no dignity in death.” — Lizzie (32:22)

• Even afterwards, Barnum spreads rumors to keep the story in the press (e.g. Heth’s “ashes are going on tour of Europe”) (34:52–35:13)

11. Barnum’s Later Justifications and Reinventions

• In his 1841 semi-autobiographical work "Adventures of an Adventurer," Barnum recasts himself as the clever trickster who creates the hoax, even claiming he pulled out Heth’s teeth to make her appear older—an embellishment/later invention. (41:28–42:24) Quote:
  “I think it’s interesting that in this 1841 semi-autobiographical version, he thinks that makes him look the best.” — Dana (42:49)

• After the Civil War and a switch to Republican (Lincoln-era) politics, Barnum positions himself as remorseful for his slavery ties, while still obscuring full responsibility. (46:33–48:34)
  Quote:
  “He claims that he did not understand that Joyce Heth was an imposter... I guess we’ll never know.” — Dana (48:14)

12. Wider Patterns: Barnum’s Career of Racial Exploitation

• The Heth hoax is the beginning of a career built on “othering” people, especially along racial lines. (44:04–46:01)
• Other “exhibits”: Black people as “African freaks,” real and fake; manipulation of non-white, disabled, and otherwise marginalized people.

13. Modern Reassessment: Truth, Nostalgia, and American Identity

• The episode concludes with reflection on why audiences wanted to believe the Heth hoax: patriotic nostalgia, desire for proximity to greatness, and the comforting fiction of “happy” slavery.
• Even criticisms of Heth’s exploitation rarely centered her humanity; instead, concern centered on the moral health or patriotic feelings of white audiences (53:59).
• “It is worth us as modern day citizens recognizing the ways in which someone like Joyce Heth was a mass pop cultural attraction and why people wanted to go see her.” — Dana (53:07)
• “America was built on the legend of George Washington and exploited labor.” — Dana (54:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth of American self-making:
  “He dreamed himself into, I’m gonna say greatness...without any moral judgment.” (Dana, 07:43)
• On the audience’s complicity:
  “You could also pat themselves on the back because they’re like, ah, George Washington. And... get to feel superior to a very, very old black woman.” (Dana, 26:06)
• On Tuned Morality:
  “Even criticisms of her on display isn’t because she’s a Black person that P.T. Barnum purchased and is displaying. Like that letter from Henry Cole. It’s like ‘this woman raised George Washington, even though she’s black, can’t we find our kindness in our hearts for more dignity here?’” (Dana, 28:14)
• On the public autopsy:
  “Let the woman rest in peace. Like, she had no dignity in life, and now she will have no dignity in death.” (Lizzie, 32:22)
• Summing up the American-ness of the hoax:
  “America was built on. A guy trying to get rich. The idealized vision of George Washington and exploited labor.” (Dana, 54:52)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 03:31 | Announcement: P.T. Barnum-focused episode | | 05:58 | Content warning about historical racism | | 06:56 | Intro to P.T. Barnum and early background | | 08:52 | The Joice Heth show—setup and premise | | 10:28 | Appearance and dehumanizing descriptions of Heth | | 12:12 | The mechanics of the hoax, documentary “proof” | | 14:36 | Leasing Heth, legal and financial details | | 16:12 | How Barnum marketed and sensationalized the exhibition | | 23:50 | Shifting strategies for different audiences | | 30:55 | Planting “automaton” rumors to gin up interest | | 33:36 | Heth’s death and public autopsy spectacle | | 38:34 | Barnum’s “afterlife” narratives for Heth | | 41:28 | 1841 novella: Barnum’s self-serving fictionalization | | 46:33 | Later-life remorse and shifting political narrative | | 53:07 | Reflection: why people wanted to believe | | 54:52 | Final insight: What America was built on |

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Tone & Language

The hosts maintain a mix of scholarly rigor and irreverence, never shying away from the disturbing realities of the story. They interject humor, pop culture references, and direct address (“This is bad!”) to keep the episode engaging and critical.

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Takeaway

The Joice Heth episode exposes both the roots of American hoax culture and the deep currents of racism and exploitation masked by spectacle. Barnum’s showmanship, and the public’s appetite for deception, reveal how entertainment, patriotism, and bigotry were—and are—intertwined. The hosts challenge listeners to look past myth and nostalgia, urging critical engagement with both the stories we inherit and those who have been silenced by history.

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For more, follow the hosts at @hoaxpodcast and listen to future episodes wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Dana Schwartz]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Dana Schwartz]

New year new you.

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[Dana Schwartz]

Individual results may vary.

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[Lizzie Logan]

Change, visit your nearby Lowes on Colorado street in Kennewick.

[Dana Schwartz]

You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart podcasts, folks. It's a hoax. Although no one ever seems to believe me When I swear I never was deceiving.

[Lizzie Logan]

Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were true and the.

[Dana Schwartz]

Truths that sound like lies.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm the ghost of.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz, and.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan. Welcome to the show.

[Dana Schwartz]

We don't have the script in front of us. This episode we were seeing. If we could just go at it blind.

[Lizzie Logan]

We thought we had memorized it, and we mostly did. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Maybe a new podcast. A new I Heart podcast, or.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, that was never part of it.

[Dana Schwartz]

No. I mean, that was pretty close.

[Lizzie Logan]

I think we just forgot when the handoff happens.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, Lizzy Logan, I have some very, very exciting news. Oh, my God.

[Lizzie Logan]

What's your very very exciting news?

[Dana Schwartz]

It's finally time.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God. For what?

[Dana Schwartz]

For finally an episode focused on P.T. barnum himself.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, amazing.

[Dana Schwartz]

The Great Hoaxter.

[Lizzie Logan]

The hoaxer of all hoaxers.

[Dana Schwartz]

The hoaxer of all hoaxers. Have you seen. My real question is, have you seen the movie the Greatest Showman?

[Lizzie Logan]

I have.

[Dana Schwartz]

And what are your thoughts about the Greatest Showman?

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, okay, so I've seen the Greatest Showman, and I've also seen Jenny Nicholson's review of the Greatest Showman on YouTube. So I know that it's not accurate.

[Dana Schwartz]

It is not accurate.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, listen, what are my thoughts about that film? It's fun to watch people dance, and it's fun to watch people have fun at the circus.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And, like, I'm not the biggest Pasek and Paul fan, so that's.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't know.

[Dana Schwartz]

That one was one where, like, it seemed like it would be right up my alley, but I think I already knew too much about P.T. barnum that I couldn't, like, do the suspension of disbelief, I think. And I'm not. I love when things aren't. I'm like, if you're making a movie, it doesn't have to be historically accurate. I'm just saying it affected my enjoyment of the movie.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Dan is a defender of the, as of now, upcoming Wuthering Heights adaptation.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I am. Without even seeing it, I'm gonna say, I think an adapt is someone's visceral experience and adapting it to their artistic vision. And I think that's Great.

[Lizzie Logan]

I will here.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

When I saw the Greatest Showman, I walked out thinking, that did nothing for me. But I think if I'd seen it when I was 12, it would have really hit, like, it would have hit the way, like the movie of Rent really hit, where now you go back and watch it and you're like, well, that's weird. That's all the choices. But I was like, no, if I were 12, I would have that soundtrack on repeat.

[Dana Schwartz]

Phantom of the Opera also really hit for me when I was. When that movie came out, whenever that was.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Phantom of the Opera, I will say, holds up and is a rip roaring ride.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think we both defend Gerard Butler. Phantom of the Opera.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, the thing that the Greatest Showman does not. And okay, so before we start, a few like, disclaimers. If you like the Greatest Showman, that's great. It's a work of fiction. Enjoy a musical. I think that's great. I'm not someone who's like, and it shouldn't exist. I'm a defender of anachronisms and having fun at the movies.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

A more serious disclaimer is this episode is going to feature a lot of historical racism and very uncomfortable racism sometimes. And I will be quoting from some antebellum texts that are frankly disgusting and disconcerting. And if that's just something you don't want to right now, I get it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Fair enough.

[Dana Schwartz]

This episode's gonna involve that. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he wasn't nice to people with like, deformities and differences, right?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, this episode, we're not even gonna like fully get into that. Cause he did a lot and focused just on one specific hoax.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, okay. So this is not an overview.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not an overview. It's his first, very first hoax. It's sort of like a prequel hoax.

[Lizzie Logan]

Ooh.

[Dana Schwartz]

But just it is racism. Heavy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Bring it on.

[Dana Schwartz]

If I say the name Joyce Heth, does that mean anything to you?

[Lizzie Logan]

Not one single thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, well, what about P.T. barnum?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes, I know about him.

[Dana Schwartz]

So we are going to go back in time to 1835. Great. P.T. barnum is just a 25 year old nobody. He has moved to New York City. He's worked as a shopkeeper, he's tried to start a newspaper as a newspaper editor, worked as a lottery manager, worked at a boarding house. He's had a lot of just jobs. Great. He wants to get rich quick. I think the reason that the P.T. barnum story resonates with so many people is he is Someone who was born with nothing and became wildly rich and famous in his lifetime.

[Lizzie Logan]

He was a dreamer.

[Dana Schwartz]

He was a dreamer, and he really was. He really embodies the idea of, like, this is a bootstrap situation that he built out of thin air.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

He dreamed himself into, I'm gonna say greatness in like the. You know, in the Harry Potter. When he's like, greatness is not good. Great. Like I say, greatness without any moral judgment. It's like great.

[Lizzie Logan]

Just like importance and power.

[Dana Schwartz]

What we're gonna be talking about is his very first showman job. Job in the show business. His first entertainment. His first entertainment. His first, I mean, hoax, really. Spoiler alert. It is a hoax. But that's what this show is, and that's kind of what he did. So he hears from this man named Coley Bartram, I think just like an acquaintance, who suggests that Barnum traveled to Philadelphia to meet this other showman named R.W. lindsay, who has a show going. And the word on the street, according to Barnum's friend Coley Bartram, is that this Lindsay fellow wants to get out of the biz and go back to Kentucky because he's not really making a profit. And what Lindsay's show is, is a very old woman that he claims is the 161-year-old former nurse of George Washington.

[Lizzie Logan]

You mentioned this in a previous episode.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

I assume this isn't like a show that plays every night at 8. It's more like a standing exhibit. Like, how is that a show? How is a person a show?

[Dana Schwartz]

It is a show. You buy tickets, you go see her.

[Lizzie Logan]

She tells tales.

[Dana Schwartz]

She. Exactly. She goes on. I mean, she is on stage. And Barnum, on this suggestion of this acquaintance, travels to Philadelphia to see this show. And the show is a very old, semi paralyzed woman on stage singing hymns that she had sang to George Washington 150 years ago. 150 years ago, telling tales of her dear, quote, dear little Georgie, dear little George, and just sort of talking about him growing up. The popular story of George Washington and the cherry tree, which is not true, is sort of already a story in the zeitgeist that someone had written about in a book. She's going to reiterate that story. People are going to talk about it. And people just want to, like, see her both as, like a relic of that bygone era of founding fathers, but also because she's a specimen in and of herself.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

In like a freak show way. This is a woman that they're claiming to be 161 years old.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

So Barnum goes to Philadelphia, sees the show, and then meets with her backstage in the Masonic hall where the show had happened, and, quote, finds her to be, quote, very garrulous when speaking of her protege, dear little George. And he describes what she looks like.

[Lizzie Logan]

Dana, what does garrulous mean?

[Dana Schwartz]

I think, like, that she has, like, energy, even for a very, very old woman.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

He describes her as having one fixed arm stuck, so she's half paralyzed. He describes her as totally blind, no teeth, a head of thick, bushy gray hair and nails 4 inches long and toenails a quarter inch thick.

[Lizzie Logan]

And she does sound really old.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think something that I just want to flag here is a lot of these descriptions of her, both from Barnum and also from the press at the time and also from people who come to see her are grotesque. And they are going to describe her in this way that is, I mean, like a creature of some sort. It's very othering, I should say. This is a black woman.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, I didn't know that one.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yep.

[Lizzie Logan]

And she had been, I assume, a slave then.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, had been a slave. Well, she had been slave, and she's.

[Lizzie Logan]

Still a slave because they're in Philly, which is part of the North. Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, this is an interesting.

[Lizzie Logan]

But he wants to go back to Kentucky because he wants to go be in the antebellum South.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is indeed a situation that we'll have to get into.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay. So. Okay. So I'm just gonna walk through the way that P.T. barnum would have experienced this. He meets this woman. They. You know, Lindsay's show that he's not really making money on is saying that she's. George Washington was George Washington's nurse. It is 1835. Right. George Washington was born in 1732.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

So I'm not gonna make anyone listening. Do the math. I did the math. If she was 15 when she was his nurse, that means she would be 118 now.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But also, they're claiming that she's 161. Because Lindsay, as like, quote, unquote, proof of the fact that she was George Washington's nurse, offers a bill of sale dated from February 5, 1727, from Augustine Washington, who was George Washington's father, saying that he sold this woman, Joyce Heth, when she was 54 years old to their friend and neighbor, Elizabeth Atwood. And then Lindsay claims that Joyce was present at the birth of George Washington, even clothed the newborn infant, and then would later claim that he. That she suckled. Yeah. That she Was a wet nurse. Yeah, sorry. He suckled her. I nursed him. Nursed him. Thank you. But even given that age, if she had been 54 in 1727 and he wasn't born for another five years, she wasn't going to be his wet nurse at 59 years old.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, this is a woman who apparently just defies all, you know, known biology.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, of course.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because if you're going to make it to 160, you're not going to go through menopause for a while because you have a long ass lifespan ahead of you. But I do understand what you're saying, that this is even.

[Dana Schwartz]

Even by the lie, it's not really plausible.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I mean, if I were trying to sell this, I would just say that she was 118 because, I mean, I don't know about back then, but like people live to 110. You know what I mean? That's like a less of a stretch.

[Dana Schwartz]

But Lizzie, this is someone you want to buy tickets to. Well, you want people to buy tickets to come see her. So part of the reason that the lie is so outrageous is because you're like, oh my God, that's unbelievable. I have to see this for myself. Okay, Barnum is a liar, but yeah, no kidding. And so a lot of.

[Lizzie Logan]

And so is Lindsay, I'm assuming.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, but we don't have Lindsay's writing on this. We have Barnum's writing about his conversations with Lindsay. So a lot of our sources on this are Barnum's own writings, which changed multiple times throughout his life. His first time that he writes about this is a complete lie. And then he'll write about it decades later in his autobiography. And then in later editions, we'll even revise it further. Great. So almost everything you have to take with a grain of salt. But what is kind of interesting is this almost historiography approach where you get to like, see how Barnum presented the story and like, what that says about him at any given time. But this is the version that I think is closest to the truth, that Lindsay from Kentucky had owned this woman, had decided that maybe he would make a profit displaying her and didn't really make enough money, wanted to get out of the business and sold her to PT Barnum. Slavery was already outlawed in New York City around this time. Where Barnum is going to display her, he exploits a loophole and he, quote, leases heth for a year at a thousand dollars. He goes into debt. He had to borrow 500. He didn't even have enough Money. But to quote Berth Lindforce, who's a professor at UT Austin, PT Barnum, quote, began his career in show business by going into debt to buy a superannuated female slave who turned out to be a fraud. So she was still purchased?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

The asking price that Lindsay wanted was $3,000 and he paid 1,000 and it was like a lease on a person.

[Lizzie Logan]

Do we. And maybe we're going to get to this. Do we know if George Washington had a real nurse? Like, is she pretending to be someone who actually existed? I mean, I know that he, like owned slaves as an adult and like grew up on a plantation.

[Dana Schwartz]

She's not impersonating someone with a name that we know. Right, but like George Washington absolutely has.

[Lizzie Logan]

Was raised by slaves, black slaves.

[Dana Schwartz]

On his plantation. He owned slaves. That is a. I was going to say plausible. Not only plausible thing, truthful thing. Okay. But the thing that P.T. barnum has that Lindsay doesn't have is like showbiz pizzazz. And starting on August 10, 1835, he books her a two and a half week stint at this theater in New York City called Niblo's Garden. Advertised as the childhood wet nurse of George Washington, 1835, as quote on the poster, the greatest natural and national curiosity in the world. Which, you know, why not?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna go in on a lie, go all in.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know, they say that she, quote, was the first person who put clothes on the unconscious infant, who in after days led our heroic fathers on to glory, to victory and freedom. Ironic. Yeah. To use her own language, quote, she raised him. They say that she weighs but 46 pounds.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, people were smaller then.

[Dana Schwartz]

She did not weigh 46 pounds. And they say in the advertisement she retains her faculties in an unparalleled degree, converses freely, sings numerous hymns, relates many interesting anecdotes of the boy Washington, and often laughs heartily at her own remarks or those of spectators.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures new.

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[Lizzie Logan]

Olympic Gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull and.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm US Paralympic Gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Lizzie Logan]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Dana Schwartz]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Lizzie Logan]

So when it came to getting the.

[Dana Schwartz]

Best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Lizzie Logan]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender and MLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the Newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com so, okay, the thing that.

[Dana Schwartz]

I want to point out here is that she is an object on display for two purposes. One, just because in a gay Barnum freak show way, this is a woman who is a toothless, semi paralyzed woman that they're saying is 161 years old. She is extraordinarily old looking.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay?

[Dana Schwartz]

And later, even though spoiler alert is a hoax, this woman was not 161 years old. Barnum in his defense will be like, well, no one who saw her would have ever thought that she was not that old.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay?

[Dana Schwartz]

So like it was a freak show specimen to see. And also if you weren't, if it wasn't enticing enough for you to come see an 161-year-old woman, this appeal to this national pride was also. It gives it like an air of respectability almost.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Like, oh, I'm not going to see how old she is. I'm going to learn about history.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I know.

[Lizzie Logan]

And that's why I bought my ticket. Not cause I'm, you know, just want to gawk at an old lady.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly. I'm not going to a freak show to gawk at like a human specimen. I'm going to like honor our country and like pay homage to the patriotism of our country.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Admission was 25 cents. Children half priced less than $10 today. A bargain.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, when you don't have to pay the star of your show, I guess you can keep overhead down.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. You know, she's singing hymns, telling stories about little George. As I mentioned earlier, the story about the George Washington cutting down a cherry tree and then telling his father, I cannot tell a lie, cut down a cherry tree. That is a fully fictional story that was pop in 1809. Book by a man named Mason Weem called Life of Washington. That was almost like an educational book. But it became like a very popular story. And so she would tell the story as if she had seen it. She looked incredibly, incredibly old. One of the people who sees her writes, indeed, she is a mere skeleton covered with skin. Her whole appearance very much resembles a mummy of the days of the pharaohs, taken entire from the catacombs of Egypt.

[Lizzie Logan]

I feel so bad for this lady. I just want to like feed her jello.

[Dana Schwartz]

I know. The historian Eric Lott claims that Barnum was earning $1,500 a week, which is the equivalent of $46,000 a week.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's so Much money.

[Dana Schwartz]

And she was working unpaid, 10 to 12 hours a day.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And then starting this summer, it's a months long traveling exhibit for Barnum. They go to Providence, Boston, Lowell, Worcester, Springfield, Hartford, New Haven, Albany and a few other. What's kind of interesting is, as we were talking about, like, that part of the appeal was just this like carnival sensibility of like, come see the very old woman who looks like a mummy. But on the travel at different stops, he leans into different parts of the appeal of her.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, sure. Cause the local flavor.

[Dana Schwartz]

The local flavor where when abolitionists were upset about the show, because it's like, here is an enslaved woman that you're putting on display, like further exploiting. Barnum claims that the proceeds of the exhibit were going to freeing slaves. There's no evidence of that.

[Lizzie Logan]

I can't think of a slave he could have freed right then and there.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And the appeal to the patriotism, because again, she was not George Washington's nursemaid. There's no actual factual connection to George Washington. But this is a period of urbanization and upheaval in the country. And during a time of massive upheaval, people look towards stability. And so the veneration of the founding fathers becomes really popular in that time because it's like there's this rapid urbanization, anxieties about loss of traditions. Especially going into the Civil War, there's a lot of chaos happening. There's a writer named Henry Cole who writes to the sun, complaining about this, about her being on display, not questioning whether or not she is Washington's nursemaid. But she says, why she who nursed the father of our country, the man to whom we owe our present happy and prosperous condition, should at the close of her life be exhibited as our rarer monsters are. Is there not philanthropy enough in the American people to take care of her, although her skin be black?

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, how, how, how generous.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

To me, this sort of. I mean, this isn't like one to one at all because it's not on display. But I feel like the desire to sort of connect with like a previous quote unquote, like stability. I don't know exactly what the connection is, but what it's reminding me of is every election we're like, I don't know, is there a Kennedy who can help? Like, we went to the moon and did like civil rights and stuff. Like just one of those guys around and like, we're gonna take whatever Kennedy we can get.

[Dana Schwartz]

Who, who met George Washington? He's the closest person we have to George Washington.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are you vaguely related to someone we've heard of that we know we like? Okay, can you be in charge or can I. Can I just listen to you talk? I know what to do.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's it. So it's like, not only would you understand why this was such a popular attraction, not only did people, you know, they're bored, it's the 1830s, want to go to like, quote, a freak show to look at human oddity. It's why TLC is still a channel. But then they could also pat themselves on the back because they're like, ah, George Washington. And we're gonna get into this, into Barnum as a showman later. But to fast forward a little, the historian Benjamin Reese. I just want to shout him out because he articulated this very well, I think, where she indulged in, quote, the popular desire for images of white domination. Because. Which is basically so not only do you get to look at like a. I'm putting this in air quotes. But like a weird looking person, like a freak, like, oh, look at this old lady. And get to be like, ah, George Washington. I get to think about our founding fathers. You also get to feel superior to a very, very old black woman.

[Lizzie Logan]

And she's telling, I mean, I. From what it sounds like, it sounds like she's telling a version of history in which she's very happy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I'm sure, like, if you have any anxiety around slavery, either because you own slaves and don't want to think of yourself as a bad person, or you're even like an abolitionist, but very worried about how slaves are being treated. It's like Green Book or whatever, where it's like, it's probably very comforting to watch this woman be like, I had a great time.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, I love little George.

[Lizzie Logan]

I raised this kid and I had a great life. And I'm so old. So I mean, how could I have been mistreated if I lasted all these years? I was like, is slavery really that bad if I get to, to just like, take care of a cute baby?

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie, it's so interesting that you mentioned that. Another sort of justification that makes people feel good about her on display is there's a very racist narrative, particularly around pro slavery people at this time, that black people need a tropical climate in order to thrive.

[Lizzie Logan]

Jesus.

[Dana Schwartz]

That it's like, you know, because they come from Africa, they shouldn't be in the north where it's cold. They should be in the south where it's warm. And there was the argument that her longevity is actually. That's Normal in the south, actually. Black people, where they're, quote, supposed to be, they're all living 150, 160. And the only reason it's crazy that she seems even sick now is because she's in the north and she's not supposed to be. But again, even a lot of the critique of her on display isn't because she's a Black person that P.T. barnum purchased and is displaying. Like that letter from Henry Cole. It's like, this woman raised George Washington even though she's black. Can't we find our kindness in our hearts for more dignity here and the more old fashioned New England press? So New York, they're like, eating this stuff up. But the Courier, which is a Bostonian paper, will write those who imagine they can contemplate with delight a breathing skeleton subjected to the same sort of discipline that is sometimes exercised in a menagerie to induce the inferior animals to play unnatural pranks for the amusement of barren spectators will find food to their taste by visiting. Joyce Hett basically being like, it's a moral failing to, like, go to a freak show. Yeah. But their criticism isn't it's bad to enslave a person. It's that it's bad for the moral health of the audience to go indulge in this sort of shenanigan.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's like, oh, you're half. You're halfway there, buddy. Like, you're. You know what I mean? Like, you're grasping at the idea that, like, we should not delight in the pain of others. And you're framing it as lesser beings, but really it's just others like you. Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. You're gonna get there.

[Dana Schwartz]

You're gonna get there. Barnum, for his part again, master showman is going to sort of plant stories that subvert all of these narratives to encourage people to go. He plants stories playing up how, like, religious and pious she is so you don't have to feel bad about going. And also plays up her cleanliness. There's a planted story where he says there is nothing in her appearance which can possibly be unpleasant to the minds of the most fastidious. That it's like, you don't have to feel bad about coming to see her. It's just a clean, happy old woman. And he also plays up the fact that it's like, this is so much better than slavery, that she used to be a slave and now she's just hanging out in a theater. Barnum will also have the strategy, when tour numbers kind of decrease, especially around Boston, where people are, like, less excited about this, his strategy is to, like, call himself a humbug, to drum up publicity in, like, a no press is bad press situation. And so he plants an article in the paper saying that Joyce Heft is not a human being. What purports to be a remarkably old woman is simply a curiously constructed automaton made up of whalebone, India rubber, and number springs that ingeniously put together and made to move at the slightest touch. And then they say that he's a.

[Lizzie Logan]

Ventriloquist, but she doesn't even play chess, so.

[Dana Schwartz]

She doesn't. But that did remind me of that thing where it's like, the fastest way to get a right answer on the Internet is, like, say the wrong thing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, funny.

[Dana Schwartz]

Where he came up with a. He pointed out that this was a lie in a wrong way. Some people could be like, nope, nope, she is real. But then it's like, you're answering the wrong question. She is a real person, but she's not. She's a 161-year-old.

[Lizzie Logan]

The human she's pretending to be.

[Dana Schwartz]

Nurse of George Washington. But this is what Barnum is really good at. He's really good at manipulating the story to suit his purposes. And the best way he's going to do that. And I say best in, like, the way I meant to greatest earlier with, like, no moral judgment. The smartest way. The smartest way he's gonna do that is when she dies. Yeah, because this very, very old woman dies, and Barnum announces that she will be publicly autopsied because he's like, is she actually 161 years old? Let's find out.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, let the woman rest in peace. Like, she had no dignity in life, and now she will have no dignity in death. And the number of, like, weird medical experiments that were done on enslaved people boggles my mind and makes me very mad.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, I'm glad you said that, because something that I found particularly interesting is the year before all of this happened, there had been talk of moving George Washington's remains from Virginia up to beneath the Capitol rotunda. Like, sacred relics. Like, have them in Washington, D.C. but people resisted, and it ultimately didn't happen. And it kind of didn't happen because people didn't want to, like, engage with the corporeality of George Washington. Like, you don't want to dig up his bones.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, he's already on the dollar. Like, you know, he's already, like, around.

[Dana Schwartz]

But, like, invoking his Corpse kind of cheapens him as an idea. And at this point, he was already so venerated as an idea that no one's like, no one wants to think too much about his physical body.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. And I mean, like, even. I mean, this is, you know, jumping ahead a few presidents, but, like the Lincoln Memorial, like, he big.

[Dana Schwartz]

He big. You know what I mean?

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, we like to think of these.

[Dana Schwartz]

People as, like, huge as ideas, abstract ideas, and not like rotting human bones. Yeah. So it's like, we're not gonna touch George Washington's bones, but we can sure cut open his nurse in front of an audience. And so in 1836, for 1500 spectators, Barnum gets a surgeon, David L. Rogers, to perform an autopsy at New York's city saloon, charging $0.50, twice the price of what it costs to go see her.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, yeah, this is a one time only.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a one time only. The doctor cuts through, enters the thoracic cavity, cuts through the rib cage, notes the coronary arteries and cardiac valves are not calcified, sees that she likely died of tuberculosis and says that she's no more than 80 years old. Says that this is an old woman, but not 161. Yeah. Even after this, Barnum kind of continues with the press. Like, first, there's like, he plants a lot of stories in the paper first that, like, the autopsy victim was another person and that Heth is still alive somewhere or that her ashes are going on tour of Europe or that her body is being embalmed. Just sort of.

[Lizzie Logan]

The ashes probably doesn't tell a very good story, though, or sing any hymns.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, it's a very. Like, he's just trying to, like, keep the ball in the air of, like, how can we still be talking about him? Okay, but she, you know, her remains are buried in Bethel, Connecticut, where Barnum is from.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I hope nobody messes with them anymore.

[Dana Schwartz]

Argue. I mean, again, we're taking Barnum's word for this. He says that her remains received a respectable burial.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, any burial that doesn't involve, like, poking her anymore. Yeah, yeah.

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[Lizzie Logan]

Olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull and.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Lizzie Logan]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Dana Schwartz]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Lizzie Logan]

So when it came to getting the.

[Dana Schwartz]

Best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

[Lizzie Logan]

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Learn more at pennymac. Pennymac Loan Services, LLC Equal Housing Lender NMLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com.

[Dana Schwartz]

So the afterlife of Joyce Heth. There's the autopsy, which is the literal afterlife, but then how Barnum frames the story. Okay, because this was Barnum's first foray into show business.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

There was a financial panic in 1837. You know, a few years after this, Barnum sort of fell out of show business and was trying to reclaim the spotlight. He got a writing job. And in 1841 he publishes a serialized semi autobiographical novella called Adventures of an Adventurer. Being some passages in the Life of Barnaby Diddleum, which is sort of like a very loose as like autobiography. That's a heightened version of his life. That's elements of truth from his life, but with him as sort of like a like rare rabbit character. Like a trickster. Yeah, like sarcastic. It's like a humbug about humbugs. People have written that. It's like he's writing about him being a trickster, but is like a clever trickster better.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's like the Catch Me if youf can guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Writing a book about how he outsmarted everybody and got with all those scams. And then someone fact checked it and was like, only two of these things happened and the rest he just fucking made up.

[Dana Schwartz]

He just made up the book itself. Book. This serialized story is pretty much an example of Jacksonian democratic values. Like Jacksonian democracy, which is like the slaves are all lazy and trying to get out of work and all the abolitionists are like self righteous nags. And all the jokes are kind of at the expense of these moral crusaders. So the version of the Joyce Heth story that he presents in this version is that, you know, he's like even saying, like, my first, you know, foray into show business. That he just came across a, as he calls her, a Negro wench who has been bedridden for 12 years. And basically the her owner, her slave owner says she bears a charmed life, I fancy, and lives on for the sole purpose of picking my pockets by remaining while I live on the pension list. And then it says, I felt a great curiosity to see the woman who was thus swindling my friend by her disgusting pernicity to cling to life at his expense. And then says she was exempt from all work. The horror of a Negro. She enjoyed the elysium of her race idleness to its fullest extent. So in this story, he comes across and very, very old slave woman who. How dare she is still alive, not working. And this poor slave owner has to pay to feed her.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, I'm sure it's like, really high in food, too.

[Dana Schwartz]

And she's been this poor, you know, this scam, Scam artist who's been bedridden for 12 years.

[Lizzie Logan]

She came up with this crafty plot to not die.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And in the story that Barnum tells, he comes up with the idea that she, I'll say she was George Washington's nurse. And he says, I pulled out her teeth so she would look older.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, Jesus.

[Dana Schwartz]

The thing is.

[Lizzie Logan]

Which is related to the actual George Washington who wore dentures made of slave teeth.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he also, in this version of the story, he, like, purposefully gets her addicted to whiskey so that she, like, wants to work for him. It's like a classic pimp move. Yeah. He, like, figures out how to trick her and he, like, makes a fake baptism record for her and ages it in tobacco juice. And then eventually she, like, enjoys being in on the humbug. But he, in this version, he very much, like, bought a lazy slave and, like, tricked her into working for him and came up with this idea himself.

[Lizzie Logan]

Which he didn't even.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's the thing. He did not pull out all of her teeth by. No. You know, and he did not come up with the George Washington story. He just bought the exhibit. Yeah. But I think it's interesting that in this 1841 semi autobiographical version, he thinks that makes him look the best. I mean, like, that's like the fun version of the story. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because it doesn't. I don't know, it, like, gets out of having to deal with, like, this woman's whole sad life before he entered it. You know what I mean?

[Dana Schwartz]

And like you said in a green book way, it's like a narrative of slavery that people want to believe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Because the alternative is reckoning with the vast human misery and suffering that humans have inflicted on other humans. But that was, like, the fun. And when I say Democrat, I mean like an 1830s Democrat, like a Jackson Democrat, which is the Southern. Like, that was the fun narrative where it's like these abolitionist scolds aren't in on the fun.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. And, you know, luckily today we never call people humorless when they just try to point out that we should treat everyone equally.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Barnum's tune is going to change, quite literally.

[Lizzie Logan]

Does the war have anything to do with that? Yeah. Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And politics. But before we get there. I want to just point out that his American Museum will open in December 1841. And in his career as a showman, he's going to make a habit of exploiting and othering people, particularly with racism. Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

And that I actually did know.

[Dana Schwartz]

One of his biggest exhibits is, quote, Zip the Pinhead, which he displays as a creature called. What's. What is it? As the creature which is like a. He frames, like, a monkey man, like a missing link who doesn't speak and, like, wears a hair shirt. It turns out it's just. It was just a black man named William Henry Johnson who was a cook for someone that Barnum knew in Connecticut.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, I mean, he really bootstrapped by just, like, exploiting people.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he didn't invent this. As Lyn first points out, African, quote, freaks were a common sideshow fraud at this time. And this happened a lot. And, like, plenty of the people were not actually from Africa. They were just black people who happened to be around. Yeah. But this was, like, one of his most successful hoaxes. Sideshow attractions. He did have, like, real Pygmies and Zulus and then Arab dancers and equestrians in his wild Moorish caravan. So sometimes he did have people from other countries and races. Although he did have children who he displayed as Aztec children who were just from El Salvador. He would get the Siamese twins, Chang and Eng, who were actually conjoined twins. They did not get along with Barnum. They only lasted, like, a season. And incidentally, Chang and England were slave owners themselves. They, like, actually. Very interesting.

[Lizzie Logan]

Were they actually from Siam?

[Dana Schwartz]

They were. They were from.

[Lizzie Logan]

But they were actually Siamese.

[Dana Schwartz]

They were actually Siamese and Siamese twins. And then they would be on the. They would, like, be written as just a white man that kind of got.

[Lizzie Logan]

What do you mean?

[Dana Schwartz]

They would be written in, like, these. Not a syllabus. What's it called? A census.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, okay. They just counted as, like, one white man.

[Dana Schwartz]

White man. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And really they were two conjoined Asian guys.

[Dana Schwartz]

But I guess if you're rich enough and own slaves, they're like, well, we don't know what to do with you. I guess you're really rich, so you're a white guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But that's just incidental. But basically, throughout his entire life and all of his career, racially othering people and putting people on display in a quote unquote human zoo is very much Barnum's MO but later in his life, after all of this, he's going to want to get into politics. After the Civil War, he's going to switch from being a Jacksonian Democrat into a Republican, but like a Republican in the Lincoln sense, in the 1800s sense. He unsuccessfully runs for Congress. He becomes the mayor of Bridgeport in 1875, as you know, holding up the Republican platform, which is enfranchising newly freed slaves. And he says he was a slave owner, and he's really embarrassed about it. He even says, quote, I whipped my slaves. I ought to have been whipped a thousand times for this myself. But by then I was a Democrat, one of those nondescript Democrats who are Northern men with Southern principles. So he's doing that thing where he's like, mea culpa. Sorry, Mea culpa. He writes an autobiography, Struggles and Triumphs, which is in 1869, the edition which is like the version of the story that I think is most accurate to the reality, but which we're still gonna take with a grain of salt. Because the way he frames Joyce Heth is he's like, I honestly believed it to be genuine. He says, quote, something to which, as I have said, I did not seek, but which by accident came my way and seemed almost to compel my agency. So he's just saying, like, I don't know. I came across this, and it was pretty amazing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Did he have other slaves?

[Dana Schwartz]

He did.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he claims that he did not understand that Joyce Heth was an imposter. He was shown a deed of sale and he believed it. And he said, if she was an imposter, then who taught her these things? How did she know so much about George Washington? Like, I don't know. And then even when he goes through the autopsy and says, then the doctor said it was a fraud, he says the doctors disagreed. And this, quote, dark subject will probably always be shrouded in mystery. I guess we could have known.

[Lizzie Logan]

Who could have known?

[Dana Schwartz]

I guess we'll never know. So that's sort of his last version. His version of events that he tells in the final edit of his biography is like, I guess I believed her. And even after the autopsy, you know, one doctor said she was less than 80, but people disagreed, so who am I to say?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he even justifies, as I said, I assert that when Joyce Heth was living, I never met six persons out of the many, many of thousands who visited her who seemed to doubt the claim of her age and history.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. Just because you duped a lot of people doesn't mean you were right.

[Dana Schwartz]

His sort of excuse for being a fraudster and, like, engaging in as he called them humbugs, is like, well, I'm giving people their money's worth, so I'm not actually cheating them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, you're not. You're not giving your star her money's worth because you're not giving her her money also.

[Dana Schwartz]

You're not. You're lying to people. Yeah, but whatever.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. I, I, I don't like it. I don't, I don't think that that argument holds water of like, well, you came to be entertained, and you were entertained. It's like, no, if you pay to see a lady who's 160, you better see a lady who's 160 and a.

[Dana Schwartz]

Connection to George Washington. You're really. I mean, he is, he's exploiting, obviously, this enslaved woman, but he's exploiting people's nostalgia and hunger for, like, the, the nobility of our founding fathers. Yeah, but again, he's, he's giving people what they really want, which is their basest impulses, which is to see something weird and freaky and then couching it in something that they can pretend is noble. He was a master manipulator.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, that is, like, very smart.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And devious. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's like when a hot girl wears glasses and so then guys can feel good about being attracted to them.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's exactly the same.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, it's like a girl with big boobs but glasses. You're like, oh, my God, I'm. Or she's brunette.

[Lizzie Logan]

There is. I mean, there is a whole thing of. I feel like guys are like. You know who I actually think is really hot?

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzy Kaplan.

[Lizzie Logan]

Lizzy Kaplan and Aubrey Plaza.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's crazy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, she's, like, very conventionally attractive. Like, no, but they're both really hot. But it's like. But they kind of scowl and they have dark hair. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not one of those superficial guys who is into, I don't know, Sydney Sweeney. I'm into, like, alt girls. Like Aubrey Plaza. It's like, that's a hot girl.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's a hot girl.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's a hot girl.

[Dana Schwartz]

P.T. barnum would be a master of this. He would know exactly what to give the people what they want. But, but this is P.T. barnum's very first foray into show business. It was wildly successful for him. They left this out of the Greatest Showman.

[Lizzie Logan]

More and more, I'm, like, agreeing with the Jenny Nicholson take of, like, why didn't they just write a musical inspired by P.T. barnum and call him something Else so that we didn't have to reckon with any of this. Not because I care if like the movie holds up, but I'm just like, you are burnishing the reputation of someone who not only doesn't deserve it, but probably should be the subject of a movie about what a con man he was.

[Dana Schwartz]

Why would you want to launder the reputation of a truly horrible person? Yeah, just make a musical about a circus. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Just like, call him something else.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, call him something else. I would watch music about a circus.

[Lizzie Logan]

On the Gilded Age. They have a family that's like, obviously the Vanderbilt, but they call them something else so that they don't have to deal with the stuff that happened to the actual Vanderbilts. I'm like, do that.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I would have vastly preferred that. I think part of the reason that I did not enjoy the Greatest Showman is because I have read a lot about P.T. barnum and I know he is not a good person. No. This is, I think, evidence that he was not a good person. And I think something I really regret not. It's not a regret. Something I wish we had was more or any access to Joyce Heth's interiority or experience.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

Because everything we have about her is either filtered through Barnum or filtered through the audience.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And people are like, you know, she's telling stories, she's in on it, but we don't know what her mindset was.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right. And I'll also say, like, the whole thing of him, you know, seeing the light later, I want to be clear. I do think people can change. And like, the sooner you realize slavery is bad, the better. Like, if it takes until you're middle aged, better that than five years, you know, like, and I'm not like, we gotta give him credit. I'm like, I do think it's better.

[Dana Schwartz]

Better than not better than him dying.

[Lizzie Logan]

Thinking slavery is cool. Like, it's always good to learn something, but that doesn't then retroactively make me think like, well, in that case, the Greatest Showman is a documentary because by the end of his life he was less problematic. It's like, no, you still did a lot of bad things.

[Dana Schwartz]

Still did a lot of bad things. Better than. Not that you eventually come out against slavery, but I think that it is worth us as modern day citizens recognizing the ways in which someone like Joyce Heth was a mass pop cultural attraction and why people wanted to go see her. I think it both, like, let you feel good about George Washington and her country and also let you feel better than a Black person. That's why people wanted to go. A lot of the descriptions were grotesque. And then even the people who defended her, quote, unquote, like, defended her or, like, were saying, like, you shouldn't go. It was more looking out for, like, the morality of the presumably white audience members. Yeah. As opposed to any. Any instinct towards humanity on her part.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right. That, like, she's a victim.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not. It's like, you as a white spectator, think about your moral heart. It would be. It's. You shouldn't look on grotesquerie. That's not good for you. Or even, like, even though she's black, she still touched George Washington. So let's not, you know, treat her too poorly. It's bad. And I think it's very interesting that P.T. barnum, arguably the most American, like, capital A American figure in American history, began his career by exploiting an old enslaved woman. And I think that kind of makes him even more American.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, it's like a very American story to be like, what was America built on? I don't know. George Washington and not paying a black person. So I'll grab onto those two ideas and make some money.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know what America was built on? The legend of George Washington. The fictionalized.

[Lizzie Logan]

The reputation.

[Dana Schwartz]

America was built on. A guy trying to get rich. The idealized vision of George Washington and exploited labor. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And there you go.

[Dana Schwartz]

And there you go. Lizzie, where can the good people find you?

[Lizzie Logan]

You can contact me via Hoax, the podcast on Instagram. I respond to all the messages. Have a good time, and I'm chatting with y'.

[Dana Schwartz]

All.

[Lizzie Logan]

Dana, where can the good people find you?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, they can email hoaxthepodcastmail.com I want to thank everyone personally who's emailed with great episode recommendations. They all go on the master list. It's really lovely to hear from people who listen to the show. And you can find me on Instagram and TikTok. Anah Schwartz with three z's. Oh, and I should promote this. In July, I am leading a pilgrimage to the south of France. Hell, yeah. With a program called Common Ground. This is the fourth trip I've done with them because it's a really, really special group that I really love doing this with. You should Google Common Ground pilgrimages. Dana Schwartz. This one is in the south of France, and we're going to be talking about Julia Child, who is a really wonderful person. Kind of the opposite of a P.T. barnum type in that she's really good. And the more you learn about her, the more you're like, Hell yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

I won't be there.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie won't be there. But I will be. Yep. And you can still come. You can sign up. We're gonna have a great time. It's in July. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And your book.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh and I have a book coming out in May called the Arcane Arts that's really good.

[Lizzie Logan]

I've read it.

[Dana Schwartz]

I co wrote under the pseudonym SD Coverley because it's not a hoax. I'm telling you right now. That's the pseudonym we co wrote the book under. And you can pre order it now. Please do that. Thank you so much for listening.

[Lizzie Logan]

Please hoax responsibly.

[Dana Schwartz]

Bye.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoax is a production of iHeart podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Noams Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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