Mumler Spirit Photography

Summary

Hoax! Podcast — "Mumler Spirit Photography"

Date: November 24, 2025
Hosts: Dana Schwartz & Lizzie Logan

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Episode Overview

This episode of Hoax! dives deep into the strange and beguiling world of 19th century "spirit photography," focusing on the infamous case of William Mumler, the man behind some of the era's most convincing supernatural photographs. Dana and Lizzie chronicle Mumler's rise and fall, the technical tricks behind his ghostly images, and the phenomenon’s place in history at the crossroads of grief, gullibility, and new technology. Along the way, they spotlight the cultural circumstances that made so many people eager to believe — and why some hoaxes, even when exposed, still bring both comfort and controversy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Spark: William Mumler & the Birth of "Spirit Photography"

• Who Was Mumler?
  • Originally a jewelry engraver in 1860s Boston.
  • Suffered health effects from chemical exposure, sold “miracle cures” with a fake German backstory.
    • “He is also an amateur chemist, and he is going to invent a medicine which he’ll call ‘the German remedy’ and he’ll advertise it with a fake backstory.” — Dana (08:06)
• Connection with Hannah Green Stewart
  • Neighbor, photographer, and spiritual medium; known for making hair jewelry for Victorian mourning.
  • Eventually, Mumler learned photography basics from her; their partnership became personal and professional.
  • Context of the era: Victorian death rituals, pre-photography, keeping physical mementos.

The Atmosphere: Spiritualism, Technology, & Grief

• Widespread Grief & Novel Tech
  • Civil War death toll (~700,000) fueled public longing for contact with the dead.
  • New technologies like electricity and the telegraph shifted perceptions of unseen forces and possible communication across planes.
  • “The idea that there are forces that exist in the world that you can’t see with the naked eye is not, like, a crazy thing.” — Dana (11:38)
• Rise of Spiritualism
  • Fox Sisters hoax and other mediums spread ideas of the supernatural via new mass media (spiritualist newspapers).
• Spiritual Photography: An “I Want to Believe” Era
  • Early "spirit" photos preyed on technical unfamiliarity and deep emotional needs — especially among those who lost loved ones with few or no photos left behind.

The “Discovery”: The First “Spirit” Image

• Mumler’s Self-Portrait (1862)
  • Claims to have accidentally created a double-exposure with a ghostly child in the image.
  • Shared with spiritualists, who publicized it without his initial consent.
• Celebrity Endorsements
  • Spiritualist Dr. Gardner has his own “ghost” photos taken, becomes a believer and promoter.
  • Photo expert J.W. Black (and assistant Horace Weston) observe Mumler, see “ghosts” themselves, but are not able to debunk in person.
  • “It’s interesting that a photographer shows up, sees this process, and there are no red flags going off.” — Dana (30:58)

From Sensation to Scandal

• Spirit Photography Business Booms
  • Selling sittings for what would be $300 today; even mail-order ghost photos, based on descriptions of deceased loved ones.
  • Hannah Mumler acted as a medium, “seeing” ghosts before photos were taken.
  • Spiritualists split: Some investigated and withdrew support after discovering repeat “ghosts” (living people, reused negatives).
• Frauds & Exposures
  • Repeat “ghosts” identified as living women whose previous photographs were reused.
  • Spiritualist press (Banner of Light) turns on Mumler, starts anti-Mumler campaign.
  • Shuts down Boston business after a series of exposures but relocates to New York — new market, fewer recognized faces.

The New York Revival & The Great Courtroom Drama

• Back in Business
  • Reopens in NYC under someone else’s name; business booms among new mourners.
  • Refuses to allow proper investigations; skeptical journalists and spiritualists seek to expose him.
• The Sting
  • Investigation by science writer Patrick V. Hickey; evidence collected.
  • Undercover operation by a city official – demands a ghost photo of his (unknown to him) father-in-law; result is “not my father-in-law.”
• Arrest & Trial for Fraud
  • Mumler arrested and puts up a robust legal defense.
  • Evidence: A litany of plausible technical explanations for making ghost photos, but no proof of which method (if any) Mumler actually used.
  • “As it turns out, I would enjoy being on this prosecutorial team... it’s not that hard to fake a ghost photo, of course.” — Lizzie (54:48)
• PT Barnum Weighs In
  • Testifies for the prosecution, brings a photo of himself with Abraham Lincoln's ghost as demonstration of faking ease.
  • “P.T. Barnum is like, these photos aren’t real... he brings in a photo of himself with the ghost of Abraham Lincoln floating in the background...” — Dana (60:38)
• Case Outcome
  • Judge rules prosecution failed to PROVE fraud (classic “burden of proof” problem); Mumler acquitted.
  • “However, I might believe that trick and deception has been practiced... I am compelled to decide that the prosecution has failed to prove the case.” — (63:35)

The Afterlife of Spirit Photography

• Fading Fame & Lingering Impact
  • Mumler's notoriety drops; focus shifts to real photographic innovations (“the Mumler process” for newspaper image printing).
  • His most famous “spirit photograph” came after the trial: Mary Todd Lincoln posed with “the ghost” of Abraham Lincoln.
    • “Three years after this trial, Mary Todd Lincoln goes to Mumler for a spirit photo. This is sad.” — Dana (66:41)
• Ethical Quandaries
  • Historical context: grief, loneliness, and the desire for mementos vs. taking unsuspecting mourners’ money.
  • “That is exactly when you shouldn’t take money from people — is when they’re vulnerable.” — Lizzie (68:39)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Technical Magic:

  • "If you hadn't cleaned the glass, well, the imprint of a former photograph might still be on the glass." (20:03, Dana)
  • "There are all these ways of taking spirit photos. I think he used probably a few of them based on who was watching at the time and, like, which way would be least detecting." (65:54, Dana)

• On the Comfort of Hoaxes:

  • “I think that is exactly when you shouldn’t take money from people — is when they’re vulnerable. That’s exactly when you shouldn’t lie to people; at the same time... spend your 10 bucks. I do not judge the war widow.” (68:39, Lizzie)
  • “It probably is harmless. I’m not gonna get my panties in a twist over pictures.” (70:13, Lizzie)

• Historical Irony:

  • “He sort of ushered in this like, 'seeing is believing' era where a photo is news... and he knew more than anyone that photos can be faked.” (73:14, Dana)

• PT Barnum Cameo:

  • “P.T. barnum brings in a photo of himself with the ghost of Abraham Lincoln floating in the background just to prove how easy it is to get a spirit photo taken.” (60:38, Dana)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 04:25-07:24 | Introduction to Spirit Photography and Wet Plates | | 08:06-11:00 | Mumler’s Early Life and Relationship with Hannah | | 11:38-16:13 | Civil War, Rise of Spiritualism, Technology Context | | 17:47-19:00 | Wet Plate Photography Technical Walkthrough | | 19:00-21:51 | The Accidental “First” Spirit Photo | | 27:05-32:49 | Celebrity Endorsements, Expanding the Business | | 33:48-35:53 | Skepticism from Within the Spiritualist Movement | | 37:00-44:15 | Discovery of Fraud, Moving to New York | | 47:20-54:48 | New York Sting, Criminal Charge | | 54:55-58:56 | How to Fake a Ghost Photo: Methods | | 60:10-62:05 | PT Barnum’s Testimony and Public Reaction | | 63:35-64:54 | Court Ruling and Aftermath | | 66:12-67:51 | Mary Todd Lincoln’s Ghost Photo | | 68:38-73:32 | Ethics, Legacy, and Modern Resonances |

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Memorable Moments & Pop Culture Tie-Ins

• Dana and Lizzie riff on Victorian hair jewelry, “Romy and Michelle’s High School Reunion,” and Disneyland’s Haunted Mansion (“the lo-fi ghost Pepper’s ghost effect”).
• Comic asides compare PT Barnum vs. Mumler to “Dr. Phil having a fight with Dr. Oz” (61:23), and “Alien vs Predator” (68:17).
• Reflection on how new technology (then and now) can facilitate wishful thinking: from telegraphs and X-rays to modern AI “talk to your loved one” startups.

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Conclusion

The episode paints Mumler not merely as a grifter, but as a product of and a contributor to his era’s technological enthusiasm, spiritual hunger, and gullibility — as well as an innovator whose technical skills changed the face of mass communication. The debate closes with honest ambivalence: real harm was limited, but exploiting the grieving never sits easily.

Final Takeaway:
Spirit photography shows both the power and the peril of believing our eyes — and of wanting to see what’s no longer here. Even as technology changes, the emotional void left by loss remains, along with the eagerness for hope, however manufactured.

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Follow the hosts:

• @hoaxthepodcast on Instagram (Lizzie checks the DMs)
• Dana Schwartz: @danaschwartzzz
• Email them at hoaxthepodcastmail.com

“Hoax responsibly.” (74:35)

Transcript

[Joanna]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Dana Schwartz]

You're listening to Hoax, a production of I Heart Podcasts.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Folks, it's a hoax.

[Dana Schwartz]

Wonder. Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were true and truths.

[Lizzie Logan]

That sound like lies.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm the Ghost of Dana Schwartz.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzy Logan. Welcome to the show.

[Dana Schwartz]

Before we begin, do we have any hoaxkeeping?

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoaxkeeping? Just to give everyone a sense of the distance between when podcast episodes are recorded and when they are released. This is one of the first episodes that we are recording after the release of. Of the show. And oh, my goodness. Thanks everyone for checking out the show.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to everyone who messages us on Instagram and emails [e-mail] I do check the emails. That is me.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. And I'm the one checking the Instagram. And it's been really fun to hear from everybody. The reviews have been so nice. It's just. It's really been lovely seeing all the support and all of the excitement. People have been commenting with little fun facts that they know about some of the hoaxes, things that we didn't know. And it's been really cool building the little hoax community online. So keep it up and thanks for.

[Dana Schwartz]

Checking out the pod, Keep sharing, keep rating, reviewing, subscribing, because we love making the show and want to keep doing it.

[Lizzie Logan]

So thank you very much.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, let's dive into this hoax, which I'm very excited about. Lizzie, I'm just gonna ask you, what do you know about spirit photography?

[Lizzie Logan]

Spirit photography, I think, came up in our first episode when we were talking about the Cottingly fairies, and I mentioned it as something that I found more convincing than the fairy pictures.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. And it takes a little bit more technical. Know how? Which we'll get into.

[Lizzie Logan]

I think of spirit photography as, like, you take a picture and there's blurs in the background of the picture, and someone's like, that blur is a ghost. And, like, who am I to say that that blur isn't a ghost? Or maybe the blur is, like a little bit more defined and it looks like a skeleton or something.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, I'm gonna show you an image of a famous spiritualist named Fanny Conant with the ghost, allegedly of her brother William. Okay, so that's what this photo is.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, great. So this picture, like, all the pictures will be available on the Instagram when this episode goes up. This is a woman in old times clothes, and she's seated, and behind her is. Yeah, I mean, it sort of looks like the outline of a man, the imprint of a man. The very fuzzy, faint image of a man.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. This episode, it's kind of like not to do the. I feel like this is, like, now a cliche thing. Like this episode has everything. But this episode really is going to be sort of a greatest hits of hoax. We're gonna get spiritualists, we're gonna get P.T. barnum. We're gonna get an Abe Lincoln cameo. We're getting a P.T. barnum cameo.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh my God.

[Dana Schwartz]

And I've learned more about wet plate photography than I, than I ever thought I would in my entire life.

[Lizzie Logan]

I didn't had not heard the phrase wet plate photography before today.

[Dana Schwartz]

I wanna preemptively say there are gonna be people listening to this know more about wet plate photography than I do. And if I get anything wrong, I am genuinely sorry. I tried my best. I also want to give a shout out to the writer, Peter Manso, who's an author. He wrote a book called the Apparitionists which was very helpful in this book. And he's also just written about spirit photography like all over the Internet. So shout out Peter, thank you for your help. And also shout out to the Haunted Mansion ride at Disneyland.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, big fan of the Haunted Mansion ride.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's what I think of with spirit photography. You get the hitchhiking ghosts.

[Lizzie Logan]

I will say I don't know jack nothing about no wet plate photography. But I love me the Haunted Mansion ride before they changed it. I hear now it's like, you know, lots of, lots of 3D animations and sort of movie tie ins and like whatever. I like the old school where it was literally just a doom buggy that went around and you looked at projections and then you came out the other side and it was like a nothing. And I loved it.

[Dana Schwartz]

I love the lo fi ghost. Pepper's ghost effect. Shout out. We'll talk about. That's not really relevant. We might talk about that later. But I want to talk about spirit photography. Great. And a man named William Mumler, he's, he's going to be the main character of this episode.

[Lizzie Logan]

Tell me all about it.

[Dana Schwartz]

He was born in 1832, started working in Boston as a jewelry engraver. Which was a real job back then. Like you want like a fancy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Probably still a job.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, that's true.

[Lizzie Logan]

You could get your like rings engraved with a little message.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it felt like at this time there would be like a straight with multiple engravers and then he'll work for an engraver. Later he'll open his own little engraving company and it's like watches and jewelry and silver filigree. But what's happening is he's working as an engraver. He's inhaling probably like silver filaments and chemicals like polishing chemicals and he gets tummy aches.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so he is also a amateur chemist, and he is going to invent a medicine which he'll call the German remedy, and he'll advertise it with a fake backstory. I'm going to quote from his advertisement, which is quote, I tried various doctors and advertised nostrums to no avail. They only seem to aggravate the disease. I began to despair of finding relief when I came into possession of an old German receipt from an eminent German physician. I made the medicine and found instant relief. So he sells this. There was no German receipt or old German chemist. Sure.

[Lizzie Logan]

But what is in the thing that he's selling?

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

Just like, fizzy water.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, I think it works to some degree. Maybe it's like amateur Tums.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he makes enough money from it that then he's able to open his own engraving studio.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And his engraving studio is on Washington street in Boston, and it happens to be a few doors down from the photography studio of a woman named Hannah Green Stewart. And this lady is very pretty. She also works as a spiritualist medium. Before she got into photography, she had a business braiding hair for, like, Victorian memorials for dead people. Like, someone passes away, she'll braid the hair into, like, a ring or a locket. Like, hair jewelry was, like, a specific thing.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's sweet.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which, when you think about it like, this is. This is a remnant of time before photography was widely available.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so if someone you love passes away and you have no photos of them, maybe, you know, you want a piece of them that you can keep with you. So hair. Hair jewelry was a real mainstay of Victorian culture.

[Lizzie Logan]

I will say I've given locks of my hair to boys I was dating. They never think it's cute.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think that's kind of romantic.

[Lizzie Logan]

I know. It's the type of thing girls think is romantic. And boys are like, why did you do that?

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, well, write in if you think it's romantic or weird. But this is what Hannah Green Stewart was doing. She now has a photography studio, which kind of is. It's not the same as braiding hair for memorial jewelry, but also, it's not that different. You're sort of preserving something for immortality, in a way.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. It's like a keepsake.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a keepsake. And she also is a medium, and what she'll be is a healing medium, which means that she'll sort of channel a famous old doctor and, like, give medical advice to you via this doctor.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is so. There's so many layers to this con.

[Dana Schwartz]

And it's like, is it a con, or is she just giving medical advice and pretending that it's from someone else? Which kind of is what Mumler was also doing with his old German cure.

[Lizzie Logan]

Uh, both. A little bit of both, yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Uh, but anyway, the two of them have a lot in common. He thinks she's really pretty great. She's a widow.

[Lizzie Logan]

What year are we in at this time?

[Dana Schwartz]

We're probably in, like, 1860s. Um, we actually. I know we're in the 1860s because Hannah's so. Like, Civil War. Exactly, Civil War. Because Hannah has a husband who is presumed dead. Like, we just don't have him in the historical record. We know he went off to the.

[Lizzie Logan]

Civil War and he never came back. Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

We think he died. We know he died. We don't know how he died.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Probably so.

[Lizzie Logan]

And we're in the north, so these people don't own slaves.

[Dana Schwartz]

These people do not own slaves. We're in Boston.

[Lizzie Logan]

Unproblematic in that way.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. If they're fighting in the Civil War, they're fighting on the North. Great. And also spiritualists, like, we can get into. We're actually very, very much in the North. And at a certain point, this is an aside, but there was spiritualists who believed that the Confederacy was going to be using spiritualists and get an advantage from talking to ghosts. And so they wanted to help the north by being like, we'll be the spiritualists on the north, and we'll give you ghost advice. And that didn't really materialize. So for context about the time period, I just now want to give a little more context, like, in the history. What's in the ether, so to speak. So the Civil War is happening, but electricity is still relatively novel. So the idea that there are forces that exist in the world that you can't see with the naked eye is not, like, a crazy thing that exists.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, sure. I mean, I guess if, like, you. Like, if you were born at a time when it was like, gas lamps are the only type of lamp, and then you now live in a time when it's like, electricity exists. I guess you're like, I guess there's a bunch of things that exist that we just. That I didn't know existed when I was growing up.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, a point that Mumler will make later is that electricity is something that you can't necessarily see with the naked eye, but with a long enough exposure time, you can photograph.

[Lizzie Logan]

Very true.

[Dana Schwartz]

So there are things that you can't see that. In theory, you can photograph. That's an idea.

[Lizzie Logan]

Question.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

When is Frankenstein written?

[Dana Schwartz]

1808. Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because doesn't he try to do that with electricity?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. When do they do the first X ray?

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

I know more about Frankenstein than X.

[Lizzie Logan]

Rays because it's not electricity with X rays. But isn't like taking a picture of someone's insides without cutting them open like, that, to me, is like crazy new technology.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay. The first X ray is not gonna be until 1895.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, never mind.

[Dana Schwartz]

So not super relevant to this. Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Never mind.

[Dana Schwartz]

But you know, what does happen around this time?

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm just saying, like, these are things that, if I were in that time, I would be like, I guess anything's possible.

[Dana Schwartz]

The first telegraph is gonna be sent. You know, Morse and his telegraph is gonna be sent in 1844. And so, okay, he's gonna be able to send the first to ever telegraph that that Morse sends from Washington, D.C. to Baltimore. The message is, what hath God wrought? Which feels so negative and ominous. And I think they meant it positively like, what hath God wrought? New technology. But doesn't it sound so ominous? Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Wasn't the first phone call like, get in here or something?

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

I think the first phone call was like, oh, my God, come here. Like, I really think it was.

[Dana Schwartz]

But also, this idea with the telegraph is communication is going to be happening faster and in a way that seemingly was impossible. And so it doesn't really feel like a big leap where if you can communicate between two places almost instantaneously, why couldn't you communicate between realms?

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. And things you can't see.

[Dana Schwartz]

And the idea of the telegraph is also what's going to lead to the beginning of spiritualism in 1848. And the kind of real kickoff of spiritualism happens when these sisters in Hydesville, New York, like, upstate New York, the Fox sisters do what they call, like, rapping. Like, they hear like a. Like, bang, bang, bang, like a crack in their house. And they're like. It's ghosts. And it became a whole thing, really. They were just cracking their knuckles. I mean, I could. We might do another hoax about this. Obviously, it wasn't real. But they. In their minds, they'll later say, well, it's like Morse is communicating. You know, Telegraph was like, beeps, beeps, beeps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's like Ghost Squeak could also communicate with bang, bang, bangs. It starts the spiritualism movement. Another thing that's a factor to the spiritualism movement is post industrial revolution, more people can read and they have the leisure time to do it. And so there's a lot of new ideas spreading really fast. There are multiple spiritualist specific newspapers that are going to spread news and ideas and that's going to be an important part of this story later. So all for context.

[Lizzie Logan]

Spiritualism, this is good context. I'm into this.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm into this.

[Joanna]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Spiritualism is sort of capturing the country. New ideas are proliferating. People think it's possible because, like, we don't know. Technology's interesting and new.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also the Civil war is happening 1861-1865. Like around 700,000 people die. Like there is enormous grief happening in the country.

[Lizzie Logan]

And like, what if you could talk to them?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah. So Mumler, this engraver, starts hanging around Hannah, single, you know, Mrs. But she is single. And he kind of, through osmosis and hanging out with this hot lady, learns the basics of wet plate photography, which is the sort of newer iteration of the daguerreotype that allows you to do it faster so people don't have to like sit still for half an hour. Now you can sit still for like a minute and take a photo. And what you do just this is the most bas cursory overview of wet plate photography is you take a glass, you coat it with collodion, which is like a gooey chemical mixture of ether and other chemicals, and then you bathe it in a silver iodine mixture which will make it light sensitive. Then you put it in a container that blocks all the light, and then you put it in the camera. And then when you remove the thing in front of the lens, the light of whatever's in front of the camera will imprint. Now on this glass that's been made light sensitive, sit for a full minute, close the lens, bring it back to a dark room, cover it in developing solution, rinse the plate with water to stop the development. And then you can either fix it on the glass or print it onto paper. Very basic. That's sort of the process glass. Sensitize it to light, expose it to an image, develop it.

[Lizzie Logan]

This to me is exactly in Romy and Michelle's high school reunion when she explains how post its are made.

[Dana Schwartz]

I invented wet plate photography.

[Lizzie Logan]

Invented wet plate photography.

[Dana Schwartz]

So Mumler apparently is. I want to be clear, a lot of this is from his account. Sure. And he's someone who's going to say spirit photography is real. So he's spoiler. Ghosts are A liar. He's a liar. I liked the book the Apparitionists a lot. I think one place that that book was sort of lacking a bit for me is interrogating Mumlers own accounts. Because he is a known liar. He's like a demonstrable liar. So just keep in mind that a lot of this is coming from his account of how this happened. He says he was just messing around in Hannah's studio, decided to take a picture of himself. Self portrait. Just selfies. Selfie. And when he developed the glass and saw on the negative, oh my God, a girl appeared beside me. And I'm gonna show you this photograph that he took in 1862. This is the. He claims the first photograph he ever took. You wanna describe it?

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay. I have so many questions.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

So he is standing next to a chair and sitting in the chair is a fuzzy, bleached out girl of maybe 10.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I mean, first of all, if he was like. If he took the photograph, like, who was taking the.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, he did. He just. You can just.

[Lizzie Logan]

You can just lift the thing and then go pose and then go put the thing back.

[Dana Schwartz]

It takes long enough. Like, you know, he stands there for a bit.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't believe that he didn't think anybody else was there because he's posing next to what he thought was an empty chair, which clearly he left exactly enough room for someone to sit in it. Like it is really framed. Like a. Enough room for someone to be sitting between the chair and the table. The thing is framed such that it would look like such a weird photo if nobody else was there. Well, like he clearly thinks there's gonna be somebody else in the photo.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's what he says. He says he was just messing around. And isn't it weird someone else was in this photo? He assumes, again, his account makes no sense, that he improperly cleaned the glass. Which is a thing that happened because I remember we went through this process. If you hadn't cleaned the glass, well, the imprint of a former photograph might still be on the glass. Sure. So he's like, oh, maybe. Again he says, maybe I just didn't clean the glass well enough. Isn't this silly? What a silly photo I took. But he shows it to Hannah the spiritualist and she goes, okay, that's a ghost. He is not entirely convinced by his own account, but still thinks it's interesting and transfers it to a paper to show friends who might stop by. And one of those people who stops by just happens to be this noted spiritualist named Dr. Gardner, and he just happens to stop by a few days later, Mumler shows him the photo. And he claims. Mumler claims that he was only showing Gardner the photo to, like, have a little fun at his expense. Because at this point, Mumler is not a spiritualist.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Gardner takes this photo and is like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Tell me how you did this, Leaves. And then next thing Mumler knows, there's something written about this photograph in the Herald of Progress, which is a spiritualist newspaper in New York. And Mumler claims that he was mortified seeing this because he's, you know, he's like, well, I don't know anything about spiritualism. I don't know that this is a ghost. He felt misrepresented.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm just a rational man dating a hot spiritualist, messing around with her spirit photography tools in her spirit lab. Showing her. Showing my results to her noted spiritualist friends.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly.

[Lizzie Logan]

How could that possibly have ended up with me in the newspaper?

[Dana Schwartz]

But then, lo and behold, the Banner of Light, which is a Boston spiritualist newspaper, publishes the account with more detail, including where it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Banner of Light is like, still a name that people would give to, like, a QAnon. Yeah, like, banner of Light is like what a Scientology newspaper would be called.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, Banner of Light. Lo and behold, spiritualists now flock to the studio. So he just shows back up and is like, oh, no, look at this. All these spiritualists are coming to mind. And Hannah's studio. And also, we're getting married.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, cool.

[Dana Schwartz]

Cool, cool, cool, cool. So she's the Mrs. Mumler now.

[Joanna]

I'm Joanna, founder of Midi Health. We focus on menopause. JP Morgan saw our potential and connected us with investors and partners. Now we're scaling fast. Visit jpmorgan.com growwithoutlimits JP Morgan, Oregon is the bank of the innovation economy. Hey, Oregon, there are delicious snacks waiting for you at your local CVS when snack o' clock strikes. There's no better place than CVS for a grab and go snack stop. It's quick, convenient, and the huge assortment makes it easy to find any snack you crave for an anytime pick me up. Whether it's sweet, salty, carbonated or caffeinated. Visit your local CVS store for all your gotta have em now snack moments.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money. Getting 5% cash back when I pay in 4. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 1231. See PayPal.com promoter terms can be redeemed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457 we know.

[Joanna]

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[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Storytime, our audience will send in their relationship problems. And the OK Storytime squad gives some good advice goofily. But today we're not giving out our usual advice. Our producer Riley says we're giving something else. So what are we doing today, Riley? Today we're playing a little game. Oh, I love game game, says the man. I bought special gifts for you guys from ebay. Each one picked with one of you in mind. Yeah, Dakota, if you want to guess. All right. There is a gift at my feet. Open that thing. And now it is in my hands. I feel like it's got to be our resident gamer, Kio. This is the rectangle of childhood. It's a portable game console. I used to have this as a kid, this game console. I used to play all the time. And you know when your mom came into the room when you were a kid and like you're like pretending to sleep, but Riley, what a thoughtful gift. Yeah, thank you so much, Riley. You're crushing it. But we have one more gift.

[Lizzie Logan]

We got another.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Let's open it. Boom. Oh, camera. An old timey camera.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's right.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Classic. This is awesome because you know how I love to take pictures of my travels. Yeah, you're always somewhere, whether it's in Kyrgyzstan with some nomads or just New York, you know, with a nice little piece of trash or a rat.

[Dana Schwartz]

Little. Nice picture.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

I'm taking pictures with the birds. So, Riley, you got all of this from eBay, dude, eBay. It was really fun finding it with you guys. Like, I had very specific things for each one of you. Yeah, it was all there. Thanks, Riley. And thank you. Ebay. And guys shop ebay for millions of finds, each with a story. EBay. Things people love.

[Dana Schwartz]

But Gardner, remember when I told you about those Fox girls who were doing the wrapping? Gardner had also sort of advocated them. And then there was a committee of professors, including Harvard professors, who investigated them and. And disproved that they were ghost rapping and figured out that it was just the girls cracking their knuckles underneath their dresses. So I think Gardner might have been a little, like, you know, once bitten, twice shy, and wants to make sure that these spirit photos that he's championing are, quote, unquote, real.

[Lizzie Logan]

Is Gardner sort of like the Oprah of his day, where he's like, I found some interesting people. And then he's like, mm, interesting person.

[Dana Schwartz]

You lied.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, sit on my couch and cry about it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, except I think he would be more upset when it's not real.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't know. I thought Oprah got pretty mad at that James Fry. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, that's true. He probably felt very betrayed at these teen girls who pulled a prank on him.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's a good prank.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. All right, well, he decides that he wants to get his photo taken. He gets his spirit photo taken with a deceased son who had died years before. And so he's like, wow, this is convincing. But he wants to make double sure, so he brings another photograph of him with some ghosts behind him to a photography Expert in Boston, J.W. blythe. Hold on.

[Lizzie Logan]

Go back. So what do you mean, like, with a deceased son?

[Dana Schwartz]

Like a spirit photo? He gets a spirit photo. Mumler takes his photo.

[Lizzie Logan]

So you can ask for a specific ghost to be in your photo.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that's. This is the key. Now. Okay, I didn't mention. By the time that Gardner takes the Mumler's photo and is showing it to all the other spiritualists, Mumler goes, oh, my God. That's not just anyone. That's my cousin who died. I recognize her now. Okay, so you're getting a photo not just with a random hitchhiker, but with, like, your.

[Lizzie Logan]

Your loved one family member who is.

[Dana Schwartz]

Coming to be with you.

[Lizzie Logan]

Great.

[Dana Schwartz]

So Gardner gets his photo taken, and. Oh, my God. It's my dead son.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it looks just like him.

[Dana Schwartz]

It looks just like his dead son.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, that is, like, hard to fake.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cause you know what that person looks like?

[Dana Schwartz]

You know what that person looks like? We're gonna get to that a little bit.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he's convinced this is my dead son. Amazing. He brings one of his photos that Mumler took to this photography expert, J.W. black, and asks him, would you be able to make a similar one? And Black is like, no, I wouldn't know how. And this is, like, an experienced photographer. He was the first guy to take a picture in a hot air balloon in 1860.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cool.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he's doing a lot of stuff. He's been taking photos for 20 years. And black sends his assistant, a man named Horace Weston, to go to Mumler's studio, conveniently just a few blocks away. And Weston gets a spirit photograph taken. And he's like, that's my dad who died. Dang convincing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he comes back to Black in the studio and is like, I don't know how he did it. And everyone at this photography studio kind of laughs at him because he's like, obviously it's not a ghost. But he's like, I'm convinced. So this assistant goes back to Mumler Studio with word from Black and says, if you let him watch every step in your process and you get a spirit in the photo, he'll give you $50, which is like $2,000 today.

[Lizzie Logan]

Nice.

[Dana Schwartz]

And Mumler's like, bring him over. And Black goes over, watches Mumler, and he says, take apart my camera if you want. And Black is like, nope, that's okay. And he's like, but I know photography, so I'll see if you do any funny business. Anyway, he takes the photo, and a spirit shows up. And to be fair, you know, he gets the photograph. He offers Mumler the money. Mumler says, no, no, thank you. I don't need it. I'm just doing my humble duty as a. As a spiritualist. And I just wanted, like, Black didn't really inspect the equipment. He was kind of cocky because he's like, I'm an experienced photographer and this guy's an amateur. Mumler had, you know, prepped all of his equipment in advance. He's using his own camera and tools and chemicals. And Black thought that Mumler was kind of too dumb to tinker with it in a meaningful way. But we also know that Mumler is this amateur chemist and is a technology guy, so it's not really a scientific test.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, but he did check it out.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he checked it out. And it's interesting that a photographer shows up, sees this process, and there are no red flags going off.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, to me, the more impressive thing is that, like, you can get an image of a dead person that is convincing to someone who remembers what that person looked like. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Obviously, thanks to spiritualist papers, word of mouth, Mumler becomes incredibly in demand and popular. He claims again that he's like, I was only gonna do these spirit photographs two hours a day. Cause the spirits get tired. But demands. The spirits could die. The demand means I have to do more. So he starts charging $10, which is like $300 today. So he becomes really successful. He marries Hannah Green Stewart. Now she's Mrs. Mumler. And now they're a pair. And she, as a medium, will describe the spirit who's hanging around before the photo comes. She'll be like, oh, I see, like a young woman hanging around you. And he doesn't always produce a spirit photo. Which makes people think he's for real.

[Lizzie Logan]

Right. Because the spirits are who are. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

An abolitionist newspaper called the Liberator will investigate him and say the medium's air and manner, his non success, his disappointment, all indicate reality. And Mumler's big defense is that, look, people can photograph things that you can't see, like electricity. And also, people are really happy and satisfied. I'm providing this service where people are losing loved ones. Loved ones that maybe they never got a photo of or with. And they find they get one photo with them for once in their life.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it is like he's making money. But, like, sort of on a scale of, like, huckster to creep. Like, it's a little less harmful than being like, I have a message from your loved one. You know what I mean? He's not convincing them that they can talk to the dead. He's just giving them a piece of paper with a nice picture.

[Dana Schwartz]

Although Hannah Mumler will sometimes be like. And they say this.

[Lizzie Logan]

See, I think that's kind of crossing a line.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it becomes successful enough that he closes his engraver shop. And the Mumlers are doing this full time. This is a political cartoon from Harper's Weekly that I think is very funny. It is a cartoon in two panels. The first one is like a dapper man getting his photo taken at Mumler's. And the caption is, Mr. Dobbs, at the request of his affianced, sits for his photograph, unconsciously happens in at Mumler's. And then the second panel is result Portrait of Dobbs with his five deceased wives in spiritu. Oh, no. Oh, horror. And that he accidentally got a portrait taken at Mumler's with his. With five dead wives and horrifying his affianced.

[Lizzie Logan]

That'd be like a good sketch.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, is silly. Yep. Funny little political cartoon. So Mumla is in the ether. Yep, he's in the. In the space.

[Lizzie Logan]

So it's like. It's like a. He's like the guy from Catfish.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah, he's the guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Some spiritualists are skeptical, so Fanny Conant, who is a. Which, you'd think that spiritualists would be fully on his side.

[Lizzie Logan]

I love the idea of other frickin, like, liars just being like, no, you're tricking people. I'm really talking to ghosts.

[Dana Schwartz]

But truly, I think they think that spiritualism is something to take, like, very seriously. And they don't want something that can be disproven. Muddying the waters. Yeah. So Fanny Conant, who's a big medium, writing for Banner of Light, speaking through a medium. So this isn't her saying this. She says there is much that is genuine, true. Beyond the possibility of doubt surrounding this recent unfoldment of spirit power, there is also much that is untrue and which has its origin not in the world spiritual, but in the world material. Inasmuch as you have the faculty to divide the right from the wrong, the false from the genuine, it is your duty to exercise it and to weigh the balances of your own judgment, all that is presented to you from the spirit world or from the world in which you now live. So she's just basically being like, some things are true, some things are false. Figure it out. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is generally a good perspective to have.

[Dana Schwartz]

She could not be covering her bases more.

[Lizzie Logan]

That is such a statement. It's almost like she didn't say anything.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, she didn't. The ghost that she was speaking through said it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Why would you travel all the way from the netherworld to say that?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, just to make that important point so true, the editor of the Herald of Progress, Andrew Jackson Davis, decides that he wants to send someone to investigate. And so he sends this photographer from New Orleans named William. I think the name is pronounced Guy, but how would you pronounce that name? G, U A Y. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Gay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Gay guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Guy. I think it's Guy. I'm gonna say Guy. If it's gay, I apologize, but Gay guy, Gay guy. Guy writes back to the Herald of Progress and says he investigated every step of the process very Thoroughly. And tells Davis in a letter that he fully endorses its legitimacy.

[Lizzie Logan]

All right, People are trying.

[Dana Schwartz]

People are trying. And Mumler also, from this point on, will say, Black investigated me. J.W. black. And this guy guy investigated me, so he doesn't let anyone else investigate him. He says that the spirits would become, quote, disgusted by the mortal need for proof that they'll stop showing up. So he's like, these two people investigated me. They're, you know, well known and experts, so no more.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, a little bit I get that. It's like at some point, like, trying to prove ghosts is sort of a fool's errand. And, like, it's your 10 bucks. If you want 10 bucks for a ghost photo, you have to sort of take an internal investigation and not like, you can't go find proof of an afterlife in, like, a guy's camera shop.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's true. This guy guy is also kind of a shady character because for an unbiased, you know, impartial investigator, he's gonna come work for Mumler right now. So he teams up with Mumler, and with working together, they expand the business and they also make it, like, more theatrical. They also start a mail order business. So you send a description of your loved one and $7.50, and they'll mail you the picture back.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, that's dumb.

[Dana Schwartz]

PT Barnum actually requests one and has some Mumler spirit photographs in his museum in New York, the American Museum. But Barnum's attitude is very, like. I don't know, it's interesting. It's a very, like, Ripley's Believe it or not attitude in his museum where he's like, I'm not saying it's true or false. I'm just saying it's interesting.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I guess it is.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, sure. So the most notable thing about Mumler and the thing that convinces people that it might be real is the fact that it's like you're getting a photo with a loved one that there might not have even been any photos taken of, period. So how do they do that?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, that's what I want to know.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, I'm going to say if it's someone that there have been no photos of, period, and you haven't seen them in years.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

You might.

[Lizzie Logan]

You might not remember what they look like.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think we're really used to seeing lots of photos of people we know and love.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

And if it's been years since your loved one was gone and you do not have a picture of them and you see a Very hazy outline. Like, I'm gonna show you this random. Like, it's pretty hazy. It's pretty faint. You can project whatever you want onto them.

[Lizzie Logan]

And, like, especially if you're not rich and you didn't have, like, an oil painting of them or even, like, a sketch of them, you know, like, literally, these are things I know from Nobleblood, where, you know, what's his face? King Henry, the bad guy was like, send me an oil painting of her so I know if she's pretty and of Cleves.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it's like, oh, yeah. Because you would have to know what people look like. The only way that you could get a picture of a person from one place to another was to, like, have a full oil painting done. And that's the plot of Portrait of.

[Dana Schwartz]

A Lady on Fire. Well, so this is going to lead to a little bit of trouble for Mumler. A man visits the studio, sees, like, the gallery of other ghost pictures, and happened to see that one of the ghost figures is his own wife. I was about to say, and she is alive. And had also had a photo taken at Mumler Studio, actually, back when it was Hannah's studio, before this whole spirit photo was taken. And what I love is, he says that she remembered the sitting so well because she had worn a distinctive hat and didn't like it and then hated the photos. Which is so funny to me, because who among us hasn't been like, oh, I'm getting a photo taken. I'll try a new hat. And then you're like, oh, no, I'm not a hat person. And the hat, the distinctive hat, was in the spirit photo.

[Lizzie Logan]

And you can tell that he was, like, a really good husband because he listened when she was complaining about her hat. And I can totally imagine, like, a sitcom husband being like, wah, wah, wah. My wife can't stop talking about her hat. And he's, like, not paying attention. He's just, like, watching the 1860s version of sports. But, like, he listened. He listened. This is why you have to listen to your wife when she's complaining about how much she wishes she didn't wear her hat, is because sometimes you end up busting open a conspiracy.

[Dana Schwartz]

And this guy actually was a spiritualist and said he had been really excited that these photos might have been real. But spiritualists need to be diligent about the facts. The Herald of Progress around this time revokes Guy's endorsement. And they basically say that we had not had a long or intimate acquaintance with Mr. G. We had felt satisfied of his Integrity, but were persuaded that our endorsement was a little premature. So we're not saying he was deliberately untruthful, but we don't hesitate to say that he is not a strong enough witness to say that, like, he's fully reliable. So we're just withdrawing our endorsement of it. What also is about to happen is a woman sent a spirit photo that she had taken and a photo of her mom, that she actually had a photo of her mom who died and sent the photos to the Banner of Light to be like, hey, what do you guys think? What do you at this spiritualist newspaper think of this comparison? Like, it kind of looks like my mom, right? This, like, blurry, indiscriminate, you know, white form sort of looks like my mom. And so these two photos are kind of hanging around the office, and an editor happens to see them and is like, that ghost looks familiar and goes to a friend who also had a spirit photo taken.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it was that same ghost.

[Dana Schwartz]

The same ghost was in both photos.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cause, like, kinda a lot of moms look alike.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, just like, it's also hazy. It's like very, you know, these photos are really washed out. And then a third friend sees the pictures and knows who the woman is. Like, oh, I know who that ghost is. And she's alive. And then she had the exact same photo of herself that she had taken at the gallery. Mumler does not defend himself at all. He just quiets down and doesn't do anything. The Banner of Light that this spiritualist newspaper launches, this anti Mumler campaign, you know, withdrew the endorsement, drag his reputation through the mud. Dr. Gardner turns against him. He just sort of withdraws from the spotlight. By the end of 1865, there are just no more accounts of Mumler taking photos in Boston. He's making a little money selling, like, illustrations and edited photos. What happens is the Civil War is won. Yay.

[Joanna]

Yay.

[Dana Schwartz]

And there's a story about how Jefferson Davis, when he was running away, wore his wife's clothes to try to get away. And so isn't it silly that this Confederate, they caught him and he was wearing his wife's dress. Yeah, he wasn't. He wore his, like, wife's coat.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it's like the northerners selling political cartoons. He was, like, in a dress. And so Mumler makes some money selling this, like, spliced illustration of, like, the real Jefferson Davis head and, you know, an illustration of the dress. That's like a fun keepsake to have. It's actually like a pretty clever photo manipulation. So it's like, he's good at this. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's making memes of the day.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's making. He's selling memes. He's selling memes. Guy goes back to Louisiana, opens his own photo studio, that it goes broke. And then he comes back to the Mumlers and convinces William Mumler to give spirit photography another try moving to New York City. Let's get out of Boston. So in again. We're gonna try it again in 1868.

[Lizzie Logan]

I guess if you now have all these pictures of people from Boston who nobody's gonna recognize.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, it's all the way in New York.

[Lizzie Logan]

You can sort of reuse them and maybe it'll last a little longer before you get caught.

[Dana Schwartz]

So let's go on down to New York. They. In 1868, they borrow a studio from another photographer named W.W. silver. Never changed the name on the door. So it's like a little under the radar.

[Lizzie Logan]

Smart.

[Dana Schwartz]

Gotta like. And it's pretty near Barnum's American Museum, which had burned down in a fire, was then rebuilt. So all those Mumler photos. Oh, yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

I remember that plot point from the mediocre musical.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So at first, Silver is not happy that his name is going to be associated with spirit photography. But then he gets his spirit photo taken and he's like, well, I'm convinced. And what happens is, enough people are heartbroken from the Civil War, that Mumlar becomes very, very popular again.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, boy. Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

People want these photos. The spiritualist population, ironically, like, the establishment of the spiritualism movement is, I would say, ambivalent to unhappy about this. The New York Spiritualist Conference tries to send in a committee to investigate, which Mumler refuses unless they pay for all their pictures in advance and they pass a resolution, basically saying, like, Mumler is not willing to be investigated. So we're not. We can't, like, endorse him.

[Lizzie Logan]

I know, but also, like, get creative. Like, you can investigate without, like, an, like, go undercover?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, Lizzie.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God. Is that what they do? Mumler just, like, send a pretty girl to, like. Like, be like. Tell me about your thing. Tell me about your process. Yeah. Like, how. How do camera work?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, it's not gonna be a pretty girl, but it is gonna be a journalist.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

So Mumler, I think, is very proud of himself as a photographer. Yeah. And he submits several of his best spirit photos to be displayed in the photographic sections. March, 1879, convocation at Cooper Union. So basically like a convention for photographers. And he's, you know, proud because he sees them as a application of technology. And he also defends what he's doing with the spirit photos as comforting people. He says, what joy to the troubled heart. What balm to the aching breast. Okay. This man, Patrick V. Hickey, sees the exhibition. He's the science correspondent for the New York World, and he decides he's going to investigate. He's also a Catholic. He's a very Catholic boy. Yeah. So he's not happy about this. He decides that he's going to investigate. He goes to Mumler's studio, I guess, Silver Studio, and decides that he's just going to watch what happens. And what he doesn't like is that he's being peer pressured by like, quote unquote, fellow customers who, like, feel like they're paid patsies. Like, another customer sitting in the waiting room is like, oh, $10 for a dozen images. Many persons would gladly give $1,000 to obtain the likeness of a deceased friend or relative. And you're like, you're being pushy. And also the assistant who lets him in says, oh, yeah, my name is Silver, but really it's Guy, but he's going by Silver now.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hmm.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he listens as assistants are pressing sitters for detailed physical descriptions of their loved ones.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

To be like, oh, what color was their hair? And so he's watching, he sees that Mumler and his, you know, female assistant, who presumably is Hannah, are like, very particular about where they pose people. He smells something fishy.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's seen the tricks of the trade.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he goes down to the newly elected mayor's office, the new mayor, Abraham Oakey, who incidentally hates the mayor of New York. The mayor of New York City.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't know what other mayor I thought it would be, but I felt the need to clarify.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mayor of New York City. And incidentally, this mayor has political opponents who are spiritualists, just sort of wants to, you know, thumb it to them. Cool. The mayor sends his marshal named Joseph H. Tooker, which is like TJ Hooker, but rearranged. Tooker goes in with a fake name, asks for a photo with his father in law, gets the photo, says, that's not my father in law, and arrests Mumler for fraud.

[Lizzie Logan]

For ghost fraud.

[Dana Schwartz]

For ghost fraud. Because he's saying, I'm going to take a photo of you with your father in law. That's what you're paying for. And he's like, that is not a photo of my father in law. This is fraud. I'm arresting you for ghost fraud.

[Lizzie Logan]

Feels like that should not be a matter for the police, well, it goes to court.

[Joanna]

I'm Joanna, founder of Midi Health. We focus on menopause. JP Morgan saw our potential and connected us with investors and partners. Now we're scaling fast. Visit JPMorgan.com to GrowWithoutLimits. JP Morgan is the bank of the innovation economy. Hey Oregon there are exciting things happening at your local CVS. Get our hottest Black Friday deals on over 50 same day photo gifts like cards, mugs, ornaments and more. With cvs, it's easy to turn your favorite photo into their favorite gift. Extra care is the way to save at cvs. Join for free online or in store and start Start saving. Visit your local CVS store or cvs.comholiday to see this week's deals.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Joanna]

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[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Storytime, our audience will send in their relationship problems, and the okay Storytime squad gives some good advice goofily. But today we're not giving out our usual advice, our producer Riley says. We're giving something else. So what are we Doing today, Riley? Today we're playing a little game. Game. Says the man. I bought special gifts for you guys from ebay. Each one picked with one of you in mind. Yeah, Dakota, if you want to guess. All right. There is a gift at my feet. Open that thing. And now it is in my hands. I feel like it's got to be our resident gamer. Key. This is the rectangle of childhood. It's a portable game console. I used to have this as a kid. This game console I used to play all the time. And you know when your mom came into the. The room when you're a kid and, like, you're pretending to sleep. But, Riley, what a thoughtful gift. Yeah, right? Thank you so much, Riley. You're crushing it.

[Dana Schwartz]

But we have one more gift.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Yeah, let's open it. Boom. Oh, camera. An old timey camera.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's right.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Classic. This is awesome, because you know how I love to take pictures of my travels. Yeah, you're always somewhere, whether it's in Kyrgyzstan with some nomads or just New York, you know, with a nice little. A piece of trash or a rat little.

[Dana Schwartz]

Nice picture. Taking pictures with the birds.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

So, Riley, you got all of this from ebay? Dude, ebay. It was really fun finding it with you guys. Like, I had very specific things for each one of you. It was all there. Thanks, Riley. And thank you, eBay. And guys shop ebay for millions of finds, each with a story. EBay. Things people love.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mumler pleads not guilty. Yep. Gets a fight. Like a guy whose nickname is the fighting Lawyer. John. John D. Townsend.

[Lizzie Logan]

You would think they would all kind.

[Dana Schwartz]

Of be that, but he's like, a famous criminal defense attorney who gets people off for murder. Okay. And the prosecution is led by a man named Elbridge Gary. Does that name sound familiar?

[Lizzie Logan]

Dina, you know it does not. Okay, well, we're talking about 19th century New York City attorneys.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, he's the grandson of James Madison's vice president, Elbridge Gerry. Who is the person who gerrymandering is named after?

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Dana.

[Lizzie Logan]

James Madison's vice president.

[Dana Schwartz]

Gerrymandering? Everyone knows what gerrymandering is.

[Lizzie Logan]

Did I know that was named. I know what gerrymandering is.

[Dana Schwartz]

There's a John Mulaney bit.

[Lizzie Logan]

Did I know that gerrymandering was named after a person? I did not.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, well, it is, but it should be gerrymandering because it's named after Elbridge Gary.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, the trial begins, or the preliminary hearing before they would send the case to the grand jury, begins April 21, 1869. And really, they say that he's committing fraud and theft.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, he is, but again, like.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, well, we're doing it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

They are proving if. If he is faking these ghost photos, it is fraud. And so they have to prove that he's faking these ghost photos. And as opposed to the fact that these ghost photos are real. That is the trial.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

It goes to trial. Great, Great, great, great. The judge is named Judge Joseph Dowling.

[Lizzie Logan]

Are you gonna be like a Dowelmandering? And I should know that?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, you should know. You know, 19th century, the Dowling court.

[Lizzie Logan]

And the Dowling versus the board of Education.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, I've never heard of him before.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, good.

[Dana Schwartz]

He just seems like a nice judge, I guess. I don't know. He might be really problematic. And then. I'm sorry I said that. But the poster basically comes up with all these ways that Mumler could have faked these photos.

[Lizzie Logan]

Cool.

[Dana Schwartz]

And as it turns out, I would.

[Lizzie Logan]

Enjoy being on this prosecutorial team.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not that hard to fake a ghost photo, of course.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, are you. Yeah, you just leave a little bit of the last photo there. You just don't wipe all of it off.

[Dana Schwartz]

Right.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then you just do the next photo.

[Dana Schwartz]

So that's the thing. No. Cause like, people when they were investigating, they said they cleaned the photo, the. They cleaned the glasses, but you just.

[Lizzie Logan]

Don'T clean that well. Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

But that is actually not how they're doing it. Because it's like, if someone's investigating, they're going to be like, that better be a clean glass. Clean, clean, clean. So you're like, well, how are you doing?

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, then how are they doing it?

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, there's a few ways. The easiest way is just having someone behind you for a second and then just like, run. Yeah. Because it's. The exposure time is so long that if you're only there for like a bit and then you leave, it'll be blurry and translucent. But presumably that's not how they're doing it because.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because someone would notice.

[Dana Schwartz]

Someone would hear notice. And also because now we know that they're repeating ghosts. Yes. So basically, okay, they come up with these nine different ways that I'm gonna read through and try to explain in, I don't know, as simple a way as I can, which is that there's a positive slide in the plate holder, in the camera in front of the sensitive plate. And this is how I think he is doing it. Which basically, once you make the glass plate light sensitive, if you show it another image. That image will be imprinted on the glass. So when he is bringing the clean new glass plate over to the camera, he is really, you know, for a few seconds, having a photo, like a photo negative of whatever he wants the ghost to be imprinting on it. So it's basically a double exposure. The plate is going to. I'm putting this in air quotes. See the picture of the ghost and then take the picture of the person and then they're going to be on the same negative.

[Lizzie Logan]

Gotcha.

[Dana Schwartz]

And what's amazing about that is then when the negative is developed, you see both ghosts at the same time. Yep. Because it also is very easy to layer two negatives on top of each other and then print a photo with both. But some of the amazing thing that Mumler would do is you would see the developed negative with both ghosts.

[Lizzie Logan]

Ah.

[Dana Schwartz]

So maybe when he was doing the mail order one, he would just layer two negatives to print it, because that might be easier or quicker, but that wasn't what he was doing when people were in the studio. So they also say, you know, the prosecution says a ghost figure in white could be introduced for a moment before the sitter and then withdrawn, which I don't think is what he was doing. But that is a method called Sir David Brewster's Ghost. They say a microscopic picture of the spirit form could be in the camera box alongside the lens.

[Lizzie Logan]

That could happen.

[Dana Schwartz]

Also possible the glass with the spirit image is placed behind the sensitive plate after the sitting and then impressed on the plate, which also is possible. Basically, another image is being impressed on the same plate either before or after the photo was taken. They also say the silver nitrate bath could have a glassed side and the image be impressed by a secret light, which that one feels a little like. Elaborate and tricky and unnecessarily complicated.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's like very like James Bond villain. Like, there's another photo lab in the floor.

[Dana Schwartz]

They say that the plate could be prepared with a dry process with the spirit form. And then later, the living sitter is on the same plate, which is basically like the dirty plate theory.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Which again, pretty easy and happens all the time by accident. Like, oh, I didn't clean my glass plate well enough. They say you could take a negative of the ghost and then take a positive from the negative. And to be honest, I don't understand what that means. But they have all these methods. Basically, it's a fairly simple double exposure. At some point in the process, it's doable. At some point in the process, he has these negatives from old photos of people they've taken and now they have a big catalog of photos they've taken. So it's like, oh, you're looking for your wife. Do you remember what she looks like? Oh, brown hair.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, we got one of those.

[Dana Schwartz]

We got one of those. And magazines are writing about this at the time. And in the magazine the Illustrated Photographer, someone who goes by Cardinal, writes in and says he had a trick of how he would take photos of people with animal heads on the same negative. That would develop to be like a haha, I'm gonna take a photo of you. Cute, but it shows you how you really are. Oh, shit. And then it's like you show up. And he describes the process of that in detail and is like, I used to do this all the time. It's really easy. I wanna also thank the person, the user on Reddit, Naturalog, who found that in a discussion on spirit photography.

[Lizzie Logan]

So shout out to you, thank you, Reddit.

[Dana Schwartz]

And again, these people have not seen their loved ones in a long time. Probably never had a photo of them at all. Most of the photos are pretty washed out and nondescript.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it's also like, you know, you always look a little different in photos than you look in the mirror.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

So it's like you're seeing yourself in a photo for the first time and you're like, well, I look a little different, so maybe Teresa looks a little different.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, also, ghosts aren't real.

[Lizzie Logan]

I don't even know if ghosts aren't real, but I know they don't show up in photographs taken like this.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is the PT Barnum cameo.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I know that, and I know that ghosts aren't like silver people floating around. Like, that's just not how that would work.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, when I say ghosts aren't real, I mean, Mumler was not taking photos of ghosts.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, I don't know what happens to the soul after you die, but I know that it doesn't look like your.

[Dana Schwartz]

Body, but see through. Well, P.T. barnum agrees with you and he becomes a witness for the prosecution.

[Lizzie Logan]

He, well, that's fucking stupid. Don't listen to that guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, P.T. barnum is like, these photos aren't real. And he brings in a photo of himself with the ghost of Abraham Lincoln floating in the background just to prove how easy it is to get a spirit photo taken. And he said, well, that doesn't even.

[Lizzie Logan]

Look like anything that looks like.

[Dana Schwartz]

That looks like Lincoln.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, I mean, it does, but I'm saying that Just looks like a photo of P.T. barnum that someone doodled on. Like, that doesn't look like a faked spirit photo. That just looks like a photo that somebody did. Like a Lincoln Smudge.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, well, he says, okay, okay. He even says, because they're like, aren't you? You know, he says, I've never been in the humbug business. I have always given people the worth for their money. Because he's like, I just present things to entertain people. I'm not claiming you're seeing your dead relatives.

[Lizzie Logan]

This sounds like. Like this is like Dr. Phil having a fight with Dr. Oz. Like, this is like, yes. Where I'm just like, okay, I don't. I guess you guys give different advice, but, like, just. You should both shut up.

[Dana Schwartz]

Do you think if you were the judge, would you be convinced by this?

[Lizzie Logan]

By P.T. barnum specifically or by just by the.

[Dana Schwartz]

Weight of the evidence? Yes, but I don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like what? Like, I don't know that it, like, rises to the level of like, illegal fraud.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it's not. It's not the question of whether it rises to the level of fraud. It's if he is. Is he faking these photos?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, because. Because it's not ghosts.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, the.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because I would say, like, I would like to know which one it. I would just say, like, bring that fucking camera into court and take it apart and show me which one it is. Like, don't give me nine options. Like, I'm the judge and I subpoena that camera and I want to know which one it is. And that's my ruling as the judge.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, they don't do that.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, that's crazy.

[Dana Schwartz]

The defense lawyer, this fighting lawyer who gets men off for murder, gets Marshall Tooker on the stand and proves that he doesn't know what his father in law looked like. He was like, he. It turns out that Tooker never actually met his father in law. Well, that was a stupid. That was a stupid investigation for him to run.

[Lizzie Logan]

Then why on earth.

[Dana Schwartz]

Very stupid.

[Lizzie Logan]

Why on earth did he choose that example?

[Dana Schwartz]

Terrible example. And then he talks about. Because all these people are like, well, I'm a good Christian. I don't believe in ghosts. And he finds all these Bible passages that mention spirits because, like, spirits are in the Bible. And this lawyer also says, okay, in Mumler's defense, when you show up, he says, they never guarantee that you'll get a spirit. They just say, like, sometimes you get a spirit. So it's not fraud. Because they're not guaranteeing anything. They're just saying. And you can't prove how it's done. You're just proving that there are, like nine different ways someone can do it. Yeah. So you're not proving that it's not real. Yeah. And so Mumbler gets off the judge. This is how the judge. Okay, rules. I mean. Yeah. Because. Yeah. Will you read? This is the judge's ruling.

[Lizzie Logan]

However, I might believe that trick and deception has been practiced by the prisoner. As I sit here in my capacity of magistrate, I am compelled to decide that the prosecution has failed to prove the case.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, listen, that's. In our legal system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Mumler moves back to Boston. He keeps taking spirit photographs. Keeps doing it by mail, but with less.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's not making these people pay for this.

[Dana Schwartz]

Exactly, but with less attention. The interest in spiritualism is kind of waning. You know, Hannah keeps working as this, like, spiritual healer with, like, what she calls, like, magnetism. Mumler gets more interested in the science side of photography, which is another possible way of how he did it, which is just somehow controlling the chemical reaction for the double exposure in ways that, like, I just. I don't know. But he invents a thing called the Mumler process, which is what allows newspapers to print directly from photos before you need, like, someone to copy it or engrave it in wood. And he invents the, like, electrochemical process that allows newspapers to actually print images.

[Lizzie Logan]

So he, like, contributed to society like, a ton.

[Dana Schwartz]

When he dies in 1884, 15 years after his trial, his obituary barely mentions the spirit photography. It says, william H. Mumler, a well known inventor and treasurer of the Photoelectro type company, which is the Mumler Process Company, died at his residence. He had much inventive genius and a taste for experiments which finally resulted in the discovery of what is known as the Mumler process, which, blah, blah, blah. And then at the last sentence it goes. The deceased at one time gained considerable notoriety in connection with spirit photographs. Like, he. I think what he did was technologically impressive. I think he probably used. There are all these different ways of taking spirit photos. I think he used probably a few of them based on who was watching at the time and, like, which way would be least detecting. What was interesting is they always appeared on the same negative. Yeah. Which is like the interesting thing he was doing. But this is a man who knows his way around camera technology.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

So even though he sort of withdrew from the public eye and public, you know, spiritualist communities, he's going to take his most famous spirit photo three years after the triumph. And it's. I'm gonna show you this photo.

[Lizzie Logan]

Is this famous by Dana standards, or am I gonna recognize this?

[Dana Schwartz]

I think you might recognize this. Do you recognize that woman or the person behind him?

[Lizzie Logan]

Behind her.

[Dana Schwartz]

Behind her. Thank you.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, maybe it's just because you put it in my head, but that guy looks like Lincoln.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's Lincoln.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay.

[Dana Schwartz]

Any guesses on who you think that is?

[Lizzie Logan]

Is that Mary Todd?

[Dana Schwartz]

That is Mary Todd Lincoln. Three years after this trial, Mary Todd Lincoln goes to Mumler for a spirit photo. This is sad.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'm sad.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lincoln had been assassinated seven years before. Mary Todd had actually gone to Mumler one time earlier in 1869 to get a photo with her brother, Captain Todd, who I think her half brothers actually fought for the Confederacy. But he was presumed dead and got a spirit photo of him, and then it turns out he was actually alive.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, no.

[Dana Schwartz]

The photo wasn't publicized out of respect for Lincoln's reelection campaign happening at the time, because it was like, crazy Mary Todd always doing her thing with her embarrassing family. But also, clearly, the fact that they took a photo of a ghost who was alive did not dissuade her from this. And she goes back to Mumler. She clearly knew about the trial. They claim the Mumlers claim that she used a false name and they didn't recognize her. Except Hannah saw the ghost of Lincoln hanging around, and so that's how they knew who she was. Maybe. But they get this photo of her, and it's kind of the most famous spirit photo that exists because it's Mary Todd Lincoln and the ghost or ghost form of Abraham Lincoln with his, like, hands on her shoulder.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, it's very sweet. That's sort of comforting her, sort of.

[Dana Schwartz]

The story of Mumler and spirit photography. Lizzie, how bad of a hoax do you think it is? You know, on the scale of hoax to flim flame.

[Lizzie Logan]

I'd say it's somewhere in the middle.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think it is funny that Barnum was against him in a Dr. Phil. Dr. Oz. It's very alien versus predator.

[Lizzie Logan]

It is alien versus predator. I mean, this is the thing that I always. And it, like, reminded me of, like, all those AI startups that are gonna let you talk to dead people. And I'm like, that's so gross. But this is the. This is the thing that I struggle with. With things that supposedly bring people comfort.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because that's an argument or not. I don't want to say argument because it sounds like I'm like, in conflict with people when I'm really just, like, having discussions with my friends. But, like, that is a sort of point people bring up about, like, astrology or even religion. But I don't have a problem with religion because that's an entire belief system, but various beliefs that people have that I sort of think are a little bit shaky, where they're like, oh, well, it's comforting to go to a psychic or a medium or a clairvoyant or whatever. And when people are in grief or when people are really confused or when people are going through a breakup or this, that, and the other. And if it brings them clarity or it brings them comfort, like, isn't that a good thing? And my sort of, like, counterpoint to that is, like, that is exactly when you shouldn't take money from people is when they're vulnerable. Like, that's exactly when you shouldn't take advantage of people, is when they're in the midst of grief. Like, that's exactly when you shouldn't lie to people at the same time. Like, Jesus, who am I to say that a Civil War widow isn't allowed to get their picture taken? Like. Like, man, like, spend your 10 bucks. Like, I'm. I. I do not judge the war widow. And I'm also certainly not in a position to be like, and you're a victim. And he was taking advantage of those people. Like, you know what?

[Joanna]

Like, whatever.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's 10 bucks.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, it's a. It's a picture.

[Dana Schwartz]

Like, it is a memento.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's a memento at the end of the day. Like, it probably is harmless. Like, I'm not gonna get my panties in a twist over pictures.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, that really is kind of where I stand, because it's like, this is an era where you don't have things to hold onto of your loved one. Like, if you've never taken a photo with them, you have maybe, like, anything.

[Lizzie Logan]

You have, like, their jacket or, like, a letter they wrote you.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. If they died in the Civil War, you wouldn't have gotten their hair. Like, you wouldn't have even hair jewelry to make. You might not get a memento that, like, to take a photo with them is a thing you can have and keep. But then isn't it kind of fucked up that it's like, now I have this photo of, like, you know, me and just some random guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. That this person is, like, claiming is a ghost.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, like, a little bit. I agree. It's like, I don't blame the victim for lack of A better word, the people who do this. It's like a little shame on you, Mumler.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's weird. It's like I understand like why it was popular.

[Dana Schwartz]

It shouldn't have gone to trial, but it did.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, it's like weird to make it a legality thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

And it was sort of spiritualism on trial.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's spiritualism on trial. I mean, my thing is like, to get around the whole legality thing, I'm like, just offer refunds. Like, I don't know, if someone finds out their photo's fake, like, I don't know, offer people's money back. And then you are allowed to operate in peace.

[Dana Schwartz]

They also always said you might not get a spirit photo. And so it's like you didn't get a spirit photo. You got a dirty plate with some random person.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, you know, like, whatever.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

So like, I don't, I don't think it's like the worst thing in the world because it's not like an on. You know, it's not one of those ongoing things where you claim that you can talk to someone and they come back week after week and give you more and more money and, you know, you have sort of this like ongoing relationship. It's like it's a one time memento.

[Dana Schwartz]

No one's going broken by and by.

[Lizzie Logan]

No one's going broke, no one's driving themselves crazy, no one's living in delusion. And no one's like basing their entire worldview on like, no, like the ghost is around or whatever. Like, I mean, if you believe that you know your loved one is with you in spirit, like, please go on believing that and like communicating with them. Just like, don't give a random stranger with a shop money about it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, have that in your heart, not like in your pocketbook. So like, yeah, like 90% harmless, 10%, like, don't set up a business based on taking people's money for their loved ones. Like, I don't agree with that.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, that is the story of Mumler, an accomplished chemist and photographer.

[Lizzie Logan]

At the end of the day, like, honest. And the other thing is, like, trick photography is cool.

[Dana Schwartz]

What I kind of find, not ironic, that's not the right word. But interesting is that as the person who developed the Mumler process, which meant that newspapers can now have photos.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, that's very cool.

[Dana Schwartz]

But he sort of ushered in this like, seeing is believing era where a photo is news and now we have to see it. And he knew more than anyone that Photos can be faked. And especially now with like AI photos. I just think it's sort of. I guess it is ironic that someone.

[Lizzie Logan]

She really played both sides.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. That someone whose fortune was in faking photos also was key to creating the era where photos made news real. And if you know how they do the hitchhiking ghosts at the haunted mansion, write in and tell me. I know how they do the waltzing ghosts in the ballroom. That's just a Pepper's ghost illusion, which means they have like mannequins behind plexiglass. That's fun. I want to know how they do the hitchhiking ghost.

[Lizzie Logan]

I've like watched a YouTube on how they do the hitchhiking ghost, but I don't remember what it was.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie, where can the people find you? Do you have an Instagram account now? I do.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's private at the moment, but if you request to follow me, I'll probably just let you.

[Dana Schwartz]

Or just follow the Hoax account.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, you could definitely follow the Hoax account.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's Lizzie.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's also me doing that. So if you message it, that's me. It's HOAXTHEPodcast.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm Dana Schwartz with 3Z's and you can always email HOAXTHEPodcastmail.com and rate review.

[Lizzie Logan]

Subscribe on all the podcast platforms and we'll be back in two weeks.

[Dana Schwartz]

Hoax responsibly.

[Joanna]

Bye.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoax is a production of iHeart podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Noams Griffin and Jesse Bunk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Dana Schwartz]

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[Joanna]

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[Lizzie Logan]

She'd throw things wander and started hoarding.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard. But then we found out she had something called agitation that may happen with.

[Joanna]

Dementia due to Alzheimer's disease.

[Dana Schwartz]

That was a different kind of difficult.

[Lizzie Logan]

So we asked her doctor for more help.

[Dana Schwartz]

Seeing symptoms like these in a loved.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Dana Schwartz]

Not be used as an as needed treatment.

[Lizzie Logan]

Elderly people with dementia related psychosis have.

[Dana Schwartz]

Increased risk of death or stroke.

[Lizzie Logan]

Report fever, stiff muscles and confusion which can be life threatening or uncontrolled muscle.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Movements which may be permanent.

[Lizzie Logan]

High blood sugar can lead to coma or death. Weight gain, increased cholesterol, unusual urges, dizziness.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Dana Schwartz]

Her doctor recommended Reczulti.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Talk to your loved one's doctor moments matter. Some moments in life stay with you forever. In a special segment of On Purpose brought to you by ebay, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the same exact edition on ebay. It was more than just a purchase, it was a reconnection with a memory that shaped my purpose. There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me. Years later I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back, not a reprint, that exact one. So I started searching and that's when I found it on ebay. That's what I love about ebay, where you can rediscover the pieces of your past that still inspire your present. Shop ebay for millions of finds, each with a story. EBay Things People Love Listen to On Purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Joanna]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Lizzie Logan]

Guaranteed Human.