Report from Iron Mountain

Summary

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Hoax! by iHeartMedia

Episode: "Report from Iron Mountain"

Release Date: November 10, 2025

Hosts: Dana Schwartz & Lizzie Logan

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan dive into the infamous “Report from Iron Mountain” hoax—a satirical document that claimed to reveal a shocking government conspiracy about the necessity of war for social cohesion. The hosts take listeners through the origins, content, impact, and unintended afterlife of the report, while unraveling how the hoax blurred fact, fiction, and fueled conspiracy thinking. The episode also touches on the larger question: Why are we so ready to believe extraordinary, unsettling (and sometimes very fake) things?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Cold War America

• Eisenhower and the Military-Industrial Complex ([05:02])
  • The episode situates listeners in the paranoia and secretiveness of 1960s America—after Eisenhower’s warning and amid Cold War maneuverings.
  • "It used to be that the masses fought the wars with cheap, available weapons... Now the power to kill rests in the hands of a few." – Lizzie ([05:11])
• Environment of Secrecy and Mistrust ([06:15])
  • The era is rife with suspicion. Recent crises (Cuban Missile Crisis, Gulf of Tonkin) and revelations of government misbehavior plant seeds for both real and imagined conspiracies.
  • Discussion of the "credibility gap," "missile gap," and how government fabrications led to public skepticism.

2. What Is the Report from Iron Mountain?

• The Document Appears ([08:10]-[09:43])
  • In 1967, Esquire published a 20,000-word excerpt of a mysterious report, supposedly commissioned by the Kennedy Administration to study what would happen if "worldwide peace broke out."
  • "We've been preparing for the possibility of war, but we are unprepared for the possibility of peace." — Quoting the report's premise ([09:51])
  • Leonard Lewin introduces the document as a leaked government study—raising the stakes by suggesting it was suppressed due to its incendiary findings.

3. The Chilling (and Absurd) Claims of the Report

• Key Findings ([11:07]-[15:21])
  • War is portrayed as fundamental to societal stability; the economy would collapse without it.
  • Bombs are considered the perfect product—costly and single-use.
  • Without war:
    • No borders, no allegiance to country, loss of shared values.
    • Overpopulation would result, as war keeps population "in check."
    • Alternative solutions: staged crises, bloodsports, alien invasions, or even reintroducing class warfare/slavery as outlets for “team spirit.”
  • "The report says... we can't just live in harmony forever. We would have to invent some sort of emergency." — Lizzie ([15:22])

4. Did the Public and Government Buy It?

• Immediate Reaction and Spread ([26:05]-[27:29])
  • The report was a sensation; assigned in schools, widely debated, and sparked public concern.
  • Every government agency denied involvement. White House advisor Walt Rostow undertook a weeklong investigation to confirm it was fake.
  • "He has to do his due diligence... We know it's not real, but we have to make sure." — Dana ([27:09])
• Satirical Success—But Seeds of Doubt Remain ([28:06]-[30:23])
  • Lewin, on book tour, gives cagey answers about authenticity, stoking further controversy.
  • The document's bureaucratic, unemotional, "think tank" voice made it plausible even when it was outlandish.

5. The Truth Unveiled: How the Hoax Came to Be

• The Satirical Origin ([31:45]-[34:11])
  • The report was conceived by Monocle, a New York satire magazine. Lewin, tasked with writing it, researched actual government reports to perfect the tone and added real (and two fake) footnotes.
  • "They decided not to [mark it as satire]... to get people to have a conversation about America’s dependence on the military." — Lizzie ([34:11])
• Why It Worked
  • The dense bureaucratic style, plausible research, and real-world context blurred the line between satire and reality.
  • Its purpose: to provoke discussion on the military-industrial complex and Cold War logic.

6. A Fateful (and Dangerous) Afterlife

• From Satire to Conspiracy Cannon ([45:40]-[50:21])
  • Despite Lewin confessing authorship in the 1970s, the report was co-opted by far-right and conspiracy groups, including Holocaust deniers.
  • Lawsuits eventually forced some groups to stop selling it, but the internet made control impossible.
  • "Copies of ‘Report from Iron Mountain’ are being printed and sold... by a fringe group devoted to spreading the theory that the Holocaust never happened." — Lizzie ([46:08])
  • The report became "proof" for a variety of conspiracy theories (e.g., the government creates crises, false flags), influencing narratives up to QAnon.
• Caution Against Misreading Satire as Fact
  • "It is a modest proposal, which again, people should still read as long as you know not to eat Irish babies." — Dana ([48:04])

7. Media, Myths, and Lasting Impact

• Pop Culture Echoes ([50:23]-[53:08])
  • Referenced in films like JFK, often stripped of its satirical origins to support conspiracy plotlines.
  • "Taking an idea from a satirical text and putting it into the mouth of a character in a movie who goes by Mr. X..." — Lizzie ([52:32])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Power of Satire and Hoax:
  • “The best hoax is a hoax that you not want to believe, but like, could believe.” — Dana ([17:32])
  • “Lewin included two fake footnotes, so that was his little wink, wink...” — Lizzie ([35:10])
• On Conspiratorial Thinking:
  • “People will latch onto any idea that confirms the thing they want to say, even if it’s just to make their screenplay better.” — Lizzie ([53:26])
  • “If a document has actually leaked, is someone on trial? No? Then it’s probably not real.” — Lizzie ([55:59])
• On Human Nature and Groupthink:
  • “People aren’t that good at things... Have you ever tried to do a group project?” — Dana ([49:11])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:30] – Introduction: What is the Report from Iron Mountain?
• [05:02] – The Cold War Context: Why such a report felt possible
• [09:51] – The “Peace Scare”: The satirical genesis of the hoax
• [11:27] – Chilling findings: Why war is “necessary” (according to the fake report)
• [26:05] – Government and public reaction; investigation into authenticity
• [31:45] – The Real Story: Satirical origins revealed
• [45:40] – From Cultural Curiosity to Conspiracy Fuel: The dangerous afterlife
• [50:23] – Pop culture influence & the challenge of debunking
• [55:59] – How to spot a real leak versus a hoax
• [58:47] – Final thoughts: Why conspiracy thinking persists

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Tone & Language

The hosts strike a lively, irreverent, conversational tone—intermixing humor and historical analysis. They maintain skepticism and empathy towards those caught in the web of hoaxes and conspiracy narratives, all while reminding listeners to “hoax responsibly.”

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Concluding Insights

• Report from Iron Mountain stands as a cautionary tale—not just about the dangers of government secrecy, but about the complexities of satire in the age of mistrust and misinformation.
• The line between genuine leaks and provocative thought-experiments can become dangerously blurred, especially once an idea escapes into the wilds of public (and conspiratorial) consciousness.
• Critical engagement and media literacy are essential. "Just because it sounds really good—and just because it makes a theory make sense—doesn’t mean it’s real." — Lizzie ([53:26])
• Satire with a political edge can spark important conversations—but once released, its meaning can be weaponized in unintended, sometimes dark ways.

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Hosts’ Final Takeaways

• The government is not as all-powerful and organized as most conspiracy theories imagine.
• Skepticism is healthy, but “group project” levels of incompetence are more common than secret, global conspiracies.
• Read and discuss provocation works, but understand the intent: treat them as political fiction—not as windows into secret state agendas.

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[Closing Reminder]

“Please hoax responsibly.” — Closing advice from Dana and Lizzie ([60:10])

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Transcript

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Hey, just finished drawing up that quick.

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One page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with the story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by Fig people. Check out the second season of my podcast Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart podcasts.

[B]

Folks.

[A]

It's a hoax. How come no one ever seems to believe me When I swear I never was the ceiling of last won?

[C]

Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were true and truths.

[A]

That sound like lies.

[C]

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz.

[A]

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan. Welcome to the show, Dana.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, boy. Today's topic. Let me just say, you did say.

[C]

You were a little stressed.

[A]

I'm a little bit stressed because I thought that it was one thing when I started started looking into it, and then by the time I realized that it was also some other things it was too close to when we're recording to pick a different topic. Great. And I also just wanted to say here at the top of the episode that this episode of Hoax, like all episodes of hoax, is based on our research from multiple sources. But I am drawing a lot of what I know from Phil Tinline's book Ghosts of Iron Mountain. So I just wanted to give him a shout out. Right. Up top.

[C]

Thank you, Phil.

[A]

Thank you. If this episode sparks your interest, I would go ahead and purchase or get from your library a copy of Phil Tinline's book. So thank you, Phil.

[C]

Great.

[A]

So this is about the hoax document report from Iron Mountain. I'm assuming you don't know what that is.

[C]

I. That to me, Iron Mountain, I'm like, that sounds like a Mario Kart level. It means nothing to me.

[A]

Okay, great. Dana, Cast your mind back. We're going back in time to the Cold War.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. In his outgoing address to the nation, President Dwight Eisenhower coins the phrase military industrial complex.

[C]

He was kind of right about that one.

[A]

He was so right on the money about that one. It is a time of heightened militarization yeah, the space race is on. The nature of power has changed thanks to the atom bomb. It used to be that the masses fought the wars with cheap, available weapons. So it was that whoever had the most people and the most guns won the wars, and the wars were won by the people. And, you know, it was sort of democratized that way. And now the power to kill rests in the hands of a few. You can destroy a whole city. Like one guy can choose to do that from miles and miles away, and you don't even have to look a man in the eye to kill him. And the weapons makers seem to be dictating military strategy. And you're painting a picture.

[C]

This is very vivid indeed.

[A]

Can we trust the government to do the right thing? Can we even trust what they are saying? The Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile crisis, the Gulf of Tonkin.

[C]

It sounds like we're in a serious situation. Everyone is looking over their shoulder.

[A]

Exactly. There is an atmosphere of paranoia throughout the nation. People see communism everywhere. McCarthyism was not so long ago. The FBI, NSA, and CIA are all newly created within living memory. Has the CIA been covertly trying to assassinate Castro and Che Guevara? Yes. Not even that covertly. They're just trying to kill them. There's this thing called the UN that is also created within living memory. That's like a global government above all the governments. And we know now that they're not super effective at being a global government, but back then we thought they might be.

[C]

The idea is kind of nice.

[A]

It's not the worst idea. In 1963, President Kennedy is shot by some fucking guy.

[C]

And is the government keeping things from us about that?

[A]

So there's two basic theories about this. Either the country is totally unstable and like, some random guy can murder the head of state, or there's something they're not telling us. 1967, LBJ is president. The war in Vietnam escalates. Agent Orange, they say we're not using napalm on kids, but we totally are. There's something called the missile gap, which is what they're saying is that the Soviets have way more missiles than us. So that's why we got to ramp up military spending so we can get more missiles.

[C]

I bet military companies love that.

[A]

They love that. Also, the missile gap is fake. They don't have more missiles than us.

[C]

Wow. Hoax within a hoax.

[A]

Hoax within a hoaxing hoax. And that creates something called the credibility gap, which is a thing that's happening more and more, which is people just don't believe what the government is saying you. Dana.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Resident of 1967 New York.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Head out to your local newsstand to pick up a copy of Esquire magazine.

[C]

Sounds good.

[A]

It's the hottest magazine in town. They're doing like, real journalism. This is not just some magazine you leaf through. This is like hard hitting stuff.

[C]

And short stories, Good fiction In Esquire.

[A]

Oh, yes. And you find that it has a 20,000 word excerpt of a 28,000 word book.

[C]

So short book?

[A]

Most of a book, yeah. Really? A short story at that point called Report from Iron Mountain on the possibility and desirability of peace.

[C]

Hmm.

[A]

And it has a little preface. This report is 28,000 words in length and so depressing that you may not be able to take it, but if you persist. Merry Christmas anyway. An on earth war, ill will toward men.

[C]

Whoa, more magazine stories need. I feel like the magazine crisis wouldn't be happening right now if more stories started with disclaimers like that. I know, because I would want to read these 20,000 words immediately.

[A]

Immediately. So what the hell is this? Yeah, so the introduction is by a writer named Leonard Lewin, who explains that he was approached by a friend. He won't say who, but this friend is very high up in the government. And his friend said, leonard, some years ago, during the Kennedy days, JFK wanted to figure out what would happen if worldwide peace broke out. Because, you know, we've been preparing for the possibility of war, but we are unprepared for the possibility of peace.

[C]

That also sort of sounds like a thing like a freshman would say, when they're really high in a dorm room, be like, we're preparing for war, but are we even preparing for peace?

[A]

That is so exactly the mood of the nation. Like, yes, but also, that is the entire country right now. Because this is the thing. Like, think tanks are all the rage. Like, think tanks still exist, but they are so all the rage during the Cold War because people are trying to figure out what. What happens in a nuclear war. And there's never been a nuclear war. So they're spending all this time, energy, and money just being like, I don't know, game plan it, question mark, question mark, Do a war game. Come up with the primitive computer simulation, build a shelter, question mark. Like it's. The entire country is like, what if this happens?

[C]

They're just making things up and coming up with ideas.

[A]

They're just making things up. So it's totally kind of plausible that JFK would have been like, I don't know, what if there's Peace.

[C]

What if there's peace?

[A]

What if there's peace? So he commissions a highly secretive, select group of people to go to an underground bunker called Iron Mountain and work out what would happen if war stopped. And they wrote up a report that was so incendiary that the administration buried it.

[C]

Bad things happened at 4.

[A]

Stopped. So controversial. Okay, so incendiary. Yes. Bad things.

[C]

Say I'm interested. Say more.

[A]

But now this friend wants Leonard to tell the people, so he's leaking it. So this is the report from Iron Mountain.

[C]

Okay. So that's the preface. And this report published in Esquire magazine. Is that buried report from the JFK days?

[A]

Is this from the JFK days? And inside the report are some truly chilling ideas. This think tank says that war is the fundamental idea underpinning all of society.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

That if war stopped, the American economy would collapse. Bombs are the perfect product. They cost a lot to make and you can only use them once.

[C]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

If we stopped even having the possibility of war, American society would collapse. Maybe all of society would collapse. We would not have any more borders and therefore no more countries. There would be no allegiance to your country and no allegiance to its values. If you don't belong to anything, what are you a part of?

[C]

Sounds like John Lennon was onto something. Imagine.

[A]

I have a note here in my outline. The song Imagine.

[C]

The song Imagine.

[A]

Imagine. Nothing to kill or die for. I wonder if you can.

[C]

It's easy if you try.

[A]

Basically, they've been in this bunker just imagining they've been listening to the song, doing imagine. But what would this be like they've been imagining?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If we don't have any countries, are we essentially one super country of planet Earth? And then if one person rules it, is that just. Is there essentially no freedom? Like, is there just one guy ruling the whole Earth? Like, whoever is the most powerful man on Earth, does he rule the whole Earth?

[C]

Yeah, because it's like, what sort of system would there be where there's no fighting? Where it's like, even if we were one. Because we're one country now and there's plenty of fighting in America.

[A]

Sure. But it's. If there's no fighting, I mean, are our weapons sort of the ultimate checks and balances on no one country becoming too powerful?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, what would happen if all the countries stopped fighting each other? They point out that a lot of scientific advancements have been made because of the military.

[C]

That is true.

[A]

That would stop. And the report says a lot of sort of pro peace people are like, well, okay, yes, we would stop spending all this money on bombs and stuff. But wouldn't it be better to spend all that money on schools and hospitals? And they basically say, like, that wouldn't work economically. Like, it would sort of stagnate. We would end up. We would all just end up kind of broke. Like, the economy would not function that way.

[C]

Okay. They were right. This is chilling.

[A]

And also, we would end up with overpopulation because war keeps the population under control.

[C]

Bleak.

[A]

And then the report goes on to suggest that if worldwide peace did break.

[C]

Out, it's funny to think about peace breaking out.

[A]

We could potentially replace war with some other stuff. Yes. So we could fight aliens.

[C]

What about, like, the more Olympics, more physical feats of competition?

[A]

They literally have. Like, we could do blood games. Like, we could do, like, war games, basically. We could have a pollution crisis, which we.

[C]

We probably haven't do. Yeah.

[A]

We could explore space. Like, we could sort of just, you know, turn it into space spending. We could reintroduce slavery as a way to sort of keep society in check, keep team spirit going. Yeah. We could have a class war.

[C]

That would probably happen. Sure.

[A]

Or we could just sort of keep inventing crises. Like, we could have an earthquake every couple of years. Like, we could, you know, have a. Have a bomb go off. Like, we could just keep having crises that kept the population under control, kept people in a state of fear. There needs to be some sort of. We can't just live in harmony forever. We. We would have to invent some sort of emergency.

[C]

So the conclusion of this report is that a freshman in college being like, why don't we all just stop fighting? What if that. What if we all just decided at once, no more war. That that would cause the collapse of society, and we would need to invent other activities for team spirit just to keep ourselves from eating ourselves alive, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, basically. So that we don't devolve into, like, cannibalism, I guess.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So before we get to what happened next in the story, Dana, what do you think of these ideas?

[C]

I mean, look, when you say, like, this is a think tank, I can see how a group of people getting together and, like, thinking these ideas. I can see how it's, like, plausible where, yes, the military industrial complex does, like, keep the economy going. And thinking about how much money goes to war, it is depressing to think like, oh, our economy, or the stock market would probably collapse if war stopped. But I think. I'm skeptical. I think even without war, nationalism would still exist, and global warming is still a problem that we could deal with. And Silicon Valley and technology is sort of its own arms race. People are trying to get richer. I think there are other systems in place for human ambition that aren't war. So it feels like an interesting thought experiment, but it doesn't, like, ring true to me.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Well, this is also a show called hoax.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you're right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think it's likely that JFK would have commissioned such a study, that such a study would have then been written and that he then would have suppressed it?

[C]

I mean, look, here's the thing. I know this show's a hoax. So I know I'm supposed to be all smart and be like, no, this is so fake. Esquire magazine, they got us all. But, like, knowing the shady things that the government was up to during this period, this does seem very plausible. Sure, I, like, I do. It does seem plausible. I think, like, the best hoax is a hoax that you not want to believe, but, like, could believe. And if you told me genuinely that the government had, you know, a group of economists together to figure this out and this was the report they came up with, I'd be like, well, that's fucked up. But that, that's. Things were happening in the 50s.

[A]

Sure, totally. I mean, it's not the most out there idea.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I do think that, like in groups and out groups are sort of fundamental to human nature.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like true, true equality. Absolutely. Everyone is absolutely equal. Is like, not.

[C]

No, there are cool kids in kindergarten.

[A]

Yeah. Like, that's not how human civilization arose. And we're always gonna have laws and we're always gonna have some sort of tears in society. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that war is the natural. Yeah. Dana's rolling her eyes. She agrees with me. I just like, it's like the natural state of human nature.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, so I'm like, yeah, I'd buy like some of these ideas. This is also one of those things where it's like, this is also nothing new. Like, World War II did end the Depression. But also like, yeah, this is the idea behind the movie the Purge. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is nothing. This is nothing. Like the idea that the government would have come to this conclusion and then be like, what the fuck? People would freak out if they knew this. I'm like, would they? Like, I don't know, like, would they, though?

[C]

Well, here's what I want to clarify. I don't think the conclusions as you described them to me in this report sound accurate? I'm like, well that sounds a little far fetched, but to me it does sound plausible that the government would get a bunch of economic wonks together and they could come up with something wrong. Sure. Government policy. You know, if you told me that people in the 50s came up with a wacky idea that turned out not to be true, that is very plausible.

[A]

Sure.

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Hi Kyle, could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[E]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick.

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One page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI Co founder after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. There's this betting pool for the first.

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Year that there's a one person billion.

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Dollar company which would have been been like unimaginable without AI.

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And now will happen.

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I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

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Oh, hey Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on.

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Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

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[B]

Here we go.

[E]

Hey, I'm Kalpen, and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host. Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics, and pop culture. And each week one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions, like, are we heading towards another financial crash? Like in 08, is non monogamy back in style? And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands, like two minutes early? We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh, and Bill Nye.

[D]

When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.

[E]

Look, the world can seem Pretty scary right now, because it is. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Kal Penn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

So let's go back to the tale, shall we?

[C]

The tale, please.

[A]

So there's sort of three parts to what has now been revealed. Number one, that top secret officials in the government are having secret meetings. Number two, the findings in the report. And number three, the burial of the report. Yes.

[C]

The suppressing, keeping it from the people.

[A]

So these are three slight, they're interconnected, but these are three slightly different, like, ideas that people could react to. So you, you might take objection just to the fact that people are having secret meetings. You might be a person who's offended mostly that the by the idea that the government is suppressing reports, or you might be a person who is mostly reacting to the ideas in the report.

[C]

Yeah. So it's like government having secret meetings. Get over it, babies. That's, that's happening. And I'll just say, get over it, babies.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

As Dana Schwartz. The conclusions of this report, which are pretty whatever, but then the suppression, that is very scary.

[A]

Yeah. I'm just pointing those out because throughout this, people are going to have different reactions to different parts of that and it's all going to be mixed together. But I'm just saying, like, when people talk about censorship, they're not talking about like, well, what does censorship have to do with worldwide peace? It doesn't, it has to do with burying of the report. So, like, these are the things that are happening.

[C]

Got it.

[A]

So shortly after the Esquire piece comes out, the book, the report from 28,000 words. Yes. The 28,000 word book is published by Dial Press and it's a big, big hit. It is flying off the shelves. Teachers are assigning it to their students. Everybody wants to read it.

[C]

Big ideas.

[A]

Big ideas.

[C]

It's the freakonomics of its day.

[A]

It is totally the freakonomics of its day. Every government agency in the country is like, nope, wasn't us. The White House looks into it. Walt Rostow, the NSA advisor to lbj, makes a bunch of calls because he's like, I know this isn't real. I know this isn't real. But like, I, you know, like, I technically wasn't there when Kennedy was in office. So like, I mean, technically I have to check.

[C]

He has to do his due diligence.

[A]

So it takes him five days to confirm, because LBJ is like, we didn't fucking do this. Right. But, no, it's not real. Yeah, he makes all these calls, and everybody he gets in contact with is like, no, it's not real.

[C]

That is so funny to imagine the White House having this report and being like, we know it's not real, but we. We have to make sure.

[A]

We have to make sure. So he calls everybody he can think of because the press wants to know, and he can't just be like, no, because I don't think so. Yeah, he has to be like, no, I checked, and it's not real. Everyone's reaction to the ideas, it's very. Dr. Strangelove had come out three years prior. And it, I think, strikes a very similar tone of like, what if you took the illogic of the Cold War to an extreme and in a sort of farcical way? So, people, this is a. This is a. This is a conversation that the country is ready to have.

[C]

Well, here's the big problem also. If the White House is like, hey, this wasn't us, White House lying to you. That's the whole point of the report. It's like, of course you would lie. This report says you're a liar.

[A]

Sure. Well, no kidding. Lewin, when anyone asks, dial Press, hey, you published this. Is this real or fake? They point to all the footnotes in the book, and there's a lot of footnotes in the book, and they all refer to real things. So they're like, well, I don't know. Check the footnotes. Footnotes look real. Oh, and footnotes look real. Lewin goes on a press tour. He goes on a book tour, and he's soaking it up. And whenever people ask him if it's real, he gives sort of like coy, cagey answers where he's like, well, the ideas are real and the government does have meetings. So, like, there's truth in the book. So I don't know. What do you think? And it's pretty hard to prove a negative. And most of the speculation is like, okay, so, like, this is probably fake, but. Well, who do you think wrote it? Because it really. This is how those government types talk. Like this. He really got the voice right.

[C]

And in, like, the kind of QAnon like, you can't disprove a conspiracy theory believer. It's kind of that thing where you're like, okay, well, even if this meeting wasn't true, the ideas that they present are true. So it's coming out somehow.

[A]

Yeah, they're very like, well, but maybe part of it was true. Or like this one quote. Doesn't that sound like this one guy who works in this one department? I feel like maybe that guy actually said that one time. Or like, he really got the voice right. This is totally how those think tank guys talk. Like, if it wasn't this Lewin guy, like, what the hell is this?

[C]

So people pretty definitively in the culture don't think that Lewin wrote it?

[A]

I don't know about definitively in the culture. I would say in the press and in Washington.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It is not being investigated as like, oh, we've got a leak high up in the government. Like, there's no one looking into this. Like, it's a violation of the Espionage Act.

[C]

Yeah. They know it's not like an actual government document leaked. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. No. Journalists are looking for the leaker and the. I. I think probably the FBI has opened a file, but I don't think they're, like, tailing Lewin.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Readers. I'm sure there are believers, but. Yeah. Higher ups are not taking it seriously. But it's got the smack of truth to it.

[C]

It's got the smack of truth as you're describing it. I'm like, of course people believe this conspiracy because then it's the whack a mole of conspiracy theories. Because even if you don't believe pieces of it, you're like, but the ideas.

[A]

In the 1970s, early 1971, the Pentagon Papers come out.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

That reveal that the government has been lying about the reasons and progress of the Vietnam War.

[C]

And those papers are real.

[A]

Those papers are real. And when this happens, Leonard Lewin is like, I think I'm gonna stop lying about leaking government papers.

[C]

He realized that it's like he didn't want a boy who cried wolf something actually important.

[A]

He's just like, you know, this is getting a little. It's getting a little hot in here. It's getting a little hot in this kitchen. I'm gonna go ahead and give an interview and say, I wrote the whole thing, by the way. I wrote the whole thing, didn't have any co writer. I wrote the whole thing. And I personally also think it helped that he had a satirical novel that he was trying to sell.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

So it helped to put himself as the sole author of this best selling book.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So here's what actually happened. In the 1950s and 60s, there was a satire magazine in New York called Monocle. And it is as pretentious as it sounds. Do you know Monocle?

[C]

I think it still exists.

[A]

It doesn't. Oh, never mind. There is a different publication called Monocle, but it's not a satire magazine.

[C]

Not a satire magazine.

[A]

It's where Nora Ephron got her start, actually. She wrote a parody of a newspaper that was so good that the newspaper hired her.

[C]

That's so funny.

[A]

And that's how she got her start in journalism. Lewin was a contributor at Monocle, and one day, the editor, a man named Victor Navasky, was looking through a newspaper and he saw an article about how there had been talk of peace in some region or some conflict, and because of that, some stocks had actually dipped. And he saw the phrase peace scare, and he was like, look at this. And so he and his fellow editors were like, we gotta do something with this.

[C]

Yeah. It is silly and stupid to imagine that when peace is declared, the economy panics.

[A]

Yes. So they brainstormed on these ideas and they were like, we should do sort of a book about this. And they hired Lewin to write it. Oh, all right.

[C]

It wasn't even his idea.

[A]

It was not his idea. I mean, he contributed a lot of the ideas, but they sort of just took it to him because he was, like, a little older and sort of had a, I think, a more serious bent to him that he could get the voice of these think tankers.

[C]

Yeah. Clearly he nailed it.

[A]

He was particularly satirizing the logic without emotion thinking. That was very popular in Washington at the time.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Where.

[C]

Oh, you might find it ridiculous, but this is what happens when peace is declared. I'm not. I'm not getting cloudy eyed about people dying.

[A]

Yeah. And that they were sort of. You know. The logic of using nuclear bombs is cruel and insane.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Where it's like bombing for peace. Or it's like you're killing children. Like, what are you. What are you fucking talking about?

[C]

You're like fucking for virginity.

[A]

Indeed.

[C]

God, I would have been so good in the 70s.

[A]

That's the bumper sticker. And the reason it sounded so real is that he did a bunch of research. Yeah. And he talked to experts and people in the government and got their voice right.

[C]

Footnotes.

[A]

And he got real footnotes. E.L. doctorow, the novelist who wrote Ragtime, edited the book. He was another monocle guy.

[C]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

And Dial Press was in on it the whole time. They knew it was fake.

[C]

What about Esquire? Do we know?

[A]

I actually don't know.

[C]

I wonder. I bet they. It seems like the magazine people would have been, like, having boozy martini lunches. I bet. If it was a Monocle team, the Esquire team also knew.

[A]

Yeah, probably. Probably. Monocle had published satire books before, and usually with something on the COVID saying, like, from the editors at Monocle. But they decided not to for this one because they thought that if they tried to make it look real, people would have more of a discussion about the ideas and America's dependence on the military economically. And that's a conversation that they were trying to provoke. So it was less about fooling people and more about starting a conversation.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, it's a conversation we should still be having, to be honest.

[A]

Absolutely. Lewin included two fake footnotes, so that was his little wink, wink, in case anyone wanted to do, like, an insane amount of research that it was fake. And another tip off in case anyone wanted to fact check it, is that the Iron Mountain bunker is a real place, but it was not open at the time that Lewin said the meeting took place. So just. If you wanted to do a timeline, technically the book, like, does contain logical errors.

[C]

But see, it's like, that's the classic conspiracy theory thinking where then they're like, well, if they were lying about all of this, they were lying about when the bunker opened. They weren't gonna admit that the bunker was open.

[A]

Do you wanna know about the Iron Mountain bunker or do we not care? I don't really.

[C]

I mean, give me, like, two cents. Like, what is it?

[A]

So it is interesting to me. It's in Germantown, New York. It is, Right. It's just a hollowed out mountain and.

[C]

It'S a real bunker.

[A]

So right now it's a place that companies use to store documents that you legally can't destroy. So, like, point of sale documents and like, birth certificates and death certificates and stuff. But back in the 60s, it was like corporate bomb shelters.

[C]

Wait, is. Is it a government bunker? No, it's just a private bunker.

[A]

Yeah, it was at the time, like an underground hotel for oil executives to ride out the annihilation of New York. It's outside the blast zone of New York. So the idea was that it had a copy of all the stuff that you would need to run an oil company and also some apartments. So if you were high up at Exxon and you got word that a missile was headed to New York, you could, like, head up to the bunker with your family and, like, wait out the bombing.

[C]

Wow. Yeah. All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, that is interesting that that existed.

[A]

Indeed.

[C]

And possibly still exists. I guess, with all the billionaires in, like, New Zealand now.

[A]

Yes, it is a little, like, creepy to Think about. And it is. People aren't not preparing for the end of the world.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so right after, I think. I don't quite know the timeline, this is all happening right at the beginning of the 70s.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

But I think right after Lewin reveals himself, Watergate happens, which I think proves A, that the government is totally lying to you. Yep. And B, that they're not really smart enough to get away with it.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Just circling back to Nora Ephron, because I love to talk about her.

[C]

It's a perfect circle. This is a perfect full circle.

[A]

Perfect full circle. Her favorite hobby for the next, what, 40 years, getting drunk at dinner parties, telling people who Deep Throat is. Yep.

[C]

Because she was the then wife, then later ex wife of Carl Bernstein.

[A]

She knew the whole time, loved to tell people she's an icon.

[C]

She kind of so iconic model my life.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Both of our, like, number ones.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. By the 1980s, the book is out of print. RIP yeah, it was a bestseller, and then it, you know, sort of faded.

[C]

Yeah. People knew it was fake. It was less interesting.

[A]

The Berlin Wall comes down and the Cold War is over. And if you're interested in knowing more about the CIA potentially being involved in the Berlin Wall coming down, I highly recommend the podcast Wind of Change, which is absolutely fascinating, but it's about, did the CIA help write a rock song to foment youth enthusiasm for the Berlin Wall coming down? And it's a good. It's a good look at what silly spy stuff is. And it's not that these ideas aren't still relevant.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, military spending is obviously very influential. I do think that, like, you know, we were both around for, like, around. We were both alive and cognizant of the news for, like, WMDs in Iraq.

[C]

And post 911 warfare.

[A]

No blood for oil. And, like, why are we really going to war? And who is it making rich? So all of those ideas are still worth talking about, but post Cold War report from Iron Mountain is just not relevant in the way that it was because, like, the permanent state of worldwide war is not what we have. Like, we are not stockpiling arms in the same way.

[C]

There are global conflicts, but there's not, like, an active arms race that everyone's talking about. No.

[A]

We are not in a state of war readiness at all times, on the brink of nuclear annihilation at all times. Like, war games are not really a thing. Like, the brinksmanship in Cuba is not really a thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I really wish that that is where the story ended.

[C]

Oh no.

[A]

And this is the part that I didn't want to talk about because that was a really fun hoax.

[C]

Yeah. Silly magazine writers having a, having a, having a laugh. Having a best selling book. Yeah.

[A]

Print media thinking and having a laugh during the Cold War. Trying to get through the day.

[C]

Trying to get people thinking about the big issues.

[A]

Thinking about the big issues. Using satire to make a point.

[C]

Ye. That's all important. That's all good.

[B]

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[E]

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[D]

Catch the red eye or take the.

[A]

6Am, make a new hire or promote internally.

[D]

Celebrate a win with the toast at the gate or unwind at the lounge. Big props to this team.

[E]

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[D]

Hi Kyle, could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[E]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick.

[D]

One page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI Co Founder after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. There's this betting pool for the first.

[A]

Year that there's a one person billion.

[D]

Dollar company which would have been like unimaginative without AI.

[C]

And now will happen.

[D]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[A]

Oh hey Evan, Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on.

[B]

Adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.

[D]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[F]

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[A]

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[F]

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[B]

Here we go.

[E]

Hey, I'm Cal Penn, and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movie movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host. Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics and pop culture. And each week one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions, like, are we heading towards another financial crash? Like in 08, is non monogamy back in style? And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands, like two minutes early? We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh, and Bill Nye.

[D]

When you start Weaponizing outer space. Things can potentially go really wrong.

[E]

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now, because it is. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here we go again with Kal Penn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

So I'm gonna speed through the rest of it.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

Because this is just not the tone of our podcast.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Report From Iron Mountain has unfortunately sort of had a second life in conspiracy circles.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You saw this coming a mile away.

[C]

Really plausible.

[A]

I'm shouting into the mic at this point. There's a lot of people who either think that it's real or think that the ideas are real enough that they should just believe it.

[C]

Yeah. And I'm sure telling them that a satire author wrote them does not get through to these people because, again, the footnotes.

[A]

Footnotes are real because they get all their news from podcasters who started as standups anyway. So what does the word satire even mean to them?

[C]

It's true.

[A]

In the late 1980s, Lewin finds out that copies of Report from Iron Mountain are being printed and sold by a small press that purports to be academic, but is actually a fringe group devoted to spreading the theory that the Holocaust never happened. Who is buying it? Right wing groups, white nationalists and heavily armed militias. And his lawyers are like, you can't do this. This is a book. And copyright law exists.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And their lawyers are like, government files are in public domain. And he's like, it's not a government file. I said that I wrote it. And they're like, you said that because the CIA told you to. And he's like, no, CIA never told me to do that.

[C]

Did he sue them? Did it work?

[A]

He sued them and it worked. Sort of. Right in time for the Internet to make that obsolete. I mean, you can just pirate books now. But he did win, and they had to stop selling it.

[C]

Yeah, but now it's just on the.

[A]

Internet, and now it's just everywhere. I mean, which is as long as you know it's a ho. Like, whatever. I'm not gonna ever say, like, it's okay to pirate books, but, like, I don't think reading this. It's not like reading Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Like, you're allowed to read this book as long as you know it's a hoax. Like, also, you can.

[C]

I think it's worthwhile even to read and think about these ideas because the military Industrial complex is still a massive thing and problem. And, like, it's. It's interesting. This is, like, to me, as you brought this up, I'm like, that's like an interesting, like, college philosophy thought experiment.

[A]

Absolutely. Like, this was meant to be read for public consumption. Like, as long as you know that it is very much like a thought experiment that is making fun of a particular group's way of thinking.

[C]

It's a modest proposal. It's fine to read it is what it is.

[A]

It absolutely. It literally is modest.

[C]

It's a modest proposal, which again, people should still read as long as, you know, not to eat Irish babies.

[A]

Conspiracy theorists point to Iron Mountain to back up all sorts of ideas from the government is lying to you, which is, of course, sometimes true.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

To there's a secret cabal running the country, which is not really true and is almost always anti Semitic.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

To they just want to keep us at war all the time. Which is, like, even if you think that and can find evidence for that, like, you just can't say that every single world leader thinks that because, like, they just don't. Like, that's not a thing that every single world leader thinks.

[C]

No. They're not all in on it. Although if you want proof that the government is lying to you, Watergate happened. Yeah.

[A]

And then a bunch of like. And then Nixon had to resign. You know what I mean? Like, there's just as much evidence that people are trying to oust conspiracy theorists as there are that everyone's in on the conspiracy anyway.

[C]

I also, I mean, this is preaching to people listening to a podcast called hoax. People aren't that good at things.

[A]

They're dumb. They're dumb as hell.

[C]

We can't. People can't all get together and, like, orchestrate these massive conspiracies. It's just not possible. Have you ever tried to do a group project?

[A]

I'm. Yeah. See, this is the rabbit hole.

[C]

We just cannot get down it.

[A]

Another argument that people tend to cite is that in the absence of war, there needs to be some kind of societal enemy and that the government will create one. And you can use this argument to call anything a false flag operation. Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[C]

Dangero.

[A]

People have tied report from Iron Mountain to the Oklahoma City bombing, and it has influenced writing that has influenced QAnon. I'm not going to get into any of that, but if you are interested in looking it up for yourself, the writings to Google are silent weapons for quiet wars. And behold, a pale horse, which I really want to stress are writings by and for people not quite in touch with reality. I am not endorsing those writings. I'm saying those are the writings that have taken Report from Iron Mountain out of its proper context and are using.

[C]

It to fuel conspiracy theories.

[A]

Yes. Slightly more on the vibe of our podcast. Dana, have you seen the film jfk?

[C]

I haven't.

[A]

Well, I will tell you, JFK is all about. Kevin Costner plays a real guy trying to investigate the. I would say the who and the what of the assassination of President Kennedy.

[C]

Is this the Oliver Stone one? Is this the one where they sort of imply that it was lbj?

[A]

They imply that LBJ was in on it and they say that it was the CIA.

[C]

Oh, cool.

[A]

They out announced say that it was the CIA. Yeah.

[C]

But this is, again, a fiction movie. But presenting it like they did the investigation.

[A]

It's a fiction movie about a real trial.

[C]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

So it's a fiction, a movie about a real theory. Yes. So like the investigating that they do. I think they actually did, but it is to back up conclusions that have not necessarily been proven. And they show conversations and confessions that may or may not have taken place as depicted.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

And, you know, Oliver Stone's allowed to write whatever he wants.

[C]

These are actors.

[A]

It's a movie. All of the movie is about the who and the what, except for a very long scene right in the middle, which is about the why in which Costner goes to Washington to talk to a character played by Donald Sutherland, who only goes by Mr. X. And he's like, didn't you ever wonder why would the CIA want to kill their own president? And he lays out this whole argument about they wanted to kill him because he wanted to end the war in Cuba, and they couldn't have that because war is the natural state of society.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

And it is a lot of ideas that have come from many places, including Report from Iron Mountain. And the character that Donald Sutherland is playing is based on a real guy, General Prouty, who has definitely read and believed Report from Iron Mountain.

[C]

But again, Report from Iron Mountain was a satire of think tank thinking.

[A]

Yes. And taking an idea from a satirical text and putting it into the mouth of a character in a movie who goes by Mr. X is like.

[C]

And also Donald Sutherland, who's like an actor with real gravitas. Yes.

[A]

And you know who defended that decision is Nora Ephron. I just wanted to just. We had to mention her a third time. But it just is funny that, like, you know, Kennedy was killed before this book was even written. So, like, it all like, but this.

[C]

Movie wasn't made before this book was written.

[A]

No, this movie was made in the 90s.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, it all circles back to. People will latch onto any idea that confirms the thing that they want to say, even if it's just to, like, make their screenplay better.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Which is fine because you should make your screenplay better. But, like, just always, just be careful. Just because it sounds really good and just because it makes a theory of the assassination make sense doesn't mean it's real. And like, even if that is why the CIA killed Kennedy, that doesn't mean that war is the natural state of human beings. Like, even if the director of the CIA believes it and used it to justify killing Kennedy, that doesn't mean that you have to sit in your car and believe that war is the natural state of human beings. I believe in peace.

[C]

Well, that's also what I was saying. I was like, even if you believe that the report from Iron Mountain was a thing that happened, that all these, you know, government think tank people got together and came up with this. People were wrong in the 50s all the time. They had a bunch of ideas that were wrong.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

So it's like, even if you think the thing is true, that doesn't mean that the report is right.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

But it is a good. I mean, I think at this point in hoax, I do think it is worthwhile that we're talking about the ways that conspiracy theory thinking have become so, like, dangerous in our public consciousness that people latch onto conspiracy thinking to make themselves feel important and to then be terrible people.

[A]

Yeah, I'll just wrap up now. Yeah. Leonard Lewin died in 1999. His daughter sold the remaining pirated editions of the report with a big sticker on them that said, hoax.

[C]

Hoax satire. Yeah.

[A]

I think that report from Iron Mountain should just live alongside the Hunger Games or Atlas Shrugged as political fiction. That has inspired a lot of real world thinking. And you can think about it as a thing that is totally valid to inspire your conclusions, but it is not real. And I will also just say, when government documents are leaked, the government really likes to make an example out of the leakers. We know the names of these people. Chelsea Manning, Reality winner Edward Snowden. When documents from inside the government leak, you will know about it. They don't just let that slide. So that's a big tip off. If you're ever wondering if a. If a document has actually leaked, is someone on trial? No. Then it's probably not real.

[C]

And you know what? Send their conspiracy thinking against them. Where it's like, oh, no one's on trial. That means they wanted it to get out. But then don't believe it. Cause the government wants you to believe it.

[A]

Indeed. Dana, I feel like we've already played would you'd have fallen for this. But, like, what's your takeaway? I don't know. Who would you cast in the movie? I mean, would you go to Iron Mountain and talk about peace?

[C]

No. I mean, Iron Mountain sounds like a really scary, depressing place. That would make me anxious. I would have fallen for it. I don't think I necessarily would have believed the conclusions. I like to think I'm a critical enough thinker where even if I was like, oh, a bunch of government guys got together and put some theories in place, I think I would have wanted to read that critically. But it sounds plausible that a bunch of government guys got together and wrote something because they be doing that.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. That government guys would come up with a document that justifies the need for perpetual war is not, like, the most out there idea. And that the government would then suppress it is also not the most out there idea.

[C]

But then when you tell me, oh, this was written by a satire writer with a satire magazine, I'm like, oh, yeah, they'd be doing that too. Satire. Writers be writing satire.

[A]

Yeah. And then if you say, like, oh, the government just wants you to think that I'm like, no, they would never work that hard. You know what I mean? That's. That I don't buy. I would be like, no, they would, because this report doesn't contain, like, the government would only go that far to cover up a cover up if it was, like, facts.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like, like the Kennedy assassin. You know what I mean? Like, they would. If a book came out that accused, I don't know, like, something freaking crazy that was about, like, Lincoln was a pedophile or something. You know what I mean? And then it was like, oh, no, that was written as satire. And then someone was like, no, the CIA made them say that was satire. I'd be like, yeah, maybe the CIA would go through that trouble, because that would be a real national embarrassment. But just like, a report about ideas. I'm like, I cannot see the government going through all that trouble to cover up ideas.

[C]

A weekend brainstorming session.

[A]

Yeah. Or like, no, it would have to be something so embarrassing that accused America of, like, having violated the Geneva Conventions. That would destroy our national reputation, that they would then force a guy at gunpoint to say he wrote it as satire. For me to believe that it was a cover up. If it's just ideas about what might happen in a hypothetical future that's never going to come true when there's worldwide peace, I'm like, yeah, they're never gonna bother covering that up. The government is so busy, they don't care.

[C]

And again, it's an economic analysis of a hypothetical. Yeah.

[A]

Or even like a sociological analysis.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That is spooky and depressing, but not really a call to arms.

[C]

No. Interesting though. You know what? I'm glad, like in the 70s, people were thinking about these big ideas.

[A]

Yeah. Good job, Monocle.

[C]

You got the conversation.

[A]

You got the conversation. And look, we're still having it.

[C]

Now, Lizzie, where can the people find us?

[A]

The people can find us @hoaxthepodcast.

[C]

Yes. On Instagram.

[A]

On Instagram. Where can they find you?

[C]

Dana Schwartz with three z's on Instagram and TikTok.

[A]

Indeed. They can also email us at hoaxthepodcastmail. Com.

[C]

Hoaxthepodcastmail.com, we will read your email.

[A]

We will read your email. And I will also say it is us reading your email. Yeah, so that's a great way to contact us.

[C]

And Lizzie's cat Matilda will also read your email.

[A]

Indeed.

[C]

My cats can't read.

[A]

No, sadly, emailing us personally a less good way to contact us.

[C]

Yeah. No, please don't email Hoax the podcast.

[A]

Just email the podcast.

[C]

Easy to remember.

[A]

Easy peasy.

[C]

Please rate, review, subscribe if you're listening to the show. It does help a lot. Spotify, Iheart app, Apple Podcast, wherever you are, leave a little five stars.

[A]

And please, please hoax responsibly.

[C]

Yes. If there's one lesson to take away from this episode, it is Hoax responsibly.

[A]

Hoax is a production of iHeart podcasts. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Noams Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening.

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