Van Meegeren's Vermeers

Summary

Hoax! Podcast – "Van Meegeren’s Vermeers"

Podcast: Hoax!
Hosts: Dana Schwartz & Lizzie Logan
Date: February 2, 2026
Episode Theme: The audacious forgeries of Han Van Meegeren, how he fooled the Nazi art machine and the global art world with "lost Vermeers," and the slippery ethics behind his legend.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dana and Lizzie explore one of the most jaw-dropping hoaxes in art history: Han Van Meegeren’s fake Vermeers. Against the backdrop of Nazi-occupied Europe and WWII art theft, they unravel how Van Meegeren managed to trick top Nazis—including Hermann Göring—art dealers, and even the brightest art experts of the 20th century. The hosts also challenge the myth of Van Meegeren as a folk hero, peeling back layers of legend to reveal the uncomfortable truths beneath the story everyone wants to believe.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage – Art Theft and Occupation (04:00–10:00)

• Context: Nazis looted art on an unprecedented scale, especially from Jewish families. Major Nazis, notably Hermann Göring, became obsessive collectors.
• The Stash: Allies recovered a trove of art, including an alleged Vermeer, “Christ and the Adulteress,” from Göring's collection.
• Acquisition: Art often changed hands through coerceive "sales" or outright theft under threat. The murkiness of “purchasing” under occupation is discussed.
  • Quote: “If you go and you point a gun in someone's face and you say, ‘Sell me this painting for the price that I say,’ like, yeah, you're purchasing it, but… you're also kind of looting it…” – Lizzie (06:25)

2. The Suspicion – Tracing the Vermeer’s Origins (10:06–12:59)

• The Investigation: After WWII, the Allies tracked the looted Vermeer to Han Van Meegeren, a Dutchman.
• Serious Consequences: Selling famous Dutch art to Nazis was seen as treason; in postwar Amsterdam, there was talk of capital punishment for such acts.
• Interrogation & Denials: Van Meegeren initially denied everything, stonewalling until faced with the full threat of prosecution.

3. The First Twist – “I Painted It Myself” (14:01–17:39)

• Ingenious Defense: Faced with death for treason, Van Meegeren’s defense is that he painted the “Vermeer” himself—it’s a forgery, not a national treasure.
  • Quote: “Painted it myself... Can’t send me to my death for selling a Vermeer if it wasn’t a Vermeer.” – Van Meegeren via Lizzie (14:01)
• Verification: Authorities make him prove it, tasking him to “paint for [his] life” under supervision (and, after some protest, with access to alcohol and morphine).

4. The Big Reveal – Van Meegeren’s Confession & Justification (20:31–23:49)

• His Story: Claims he forged to “get one over” on critics who dismissed his art. He framed himself as a misunderstood artist, a “Robin Hood” of art out to humiliate elitist experts.
  • Quote: “I wanted to get one over on the establishment.… and that'll show them that they're not as smart as they think they are and that I'm as good a painter as a Vermeer.” – Van Meegeren via Lizzie (20:59)
• Profit Motive: The judges (and everyone else) point out he also pocketed millions
  • Quote: “If I'd sold it for 12 bucks, no one would have thought it was a real Vermeer…” – Van Meegeren (21:37)
• Outcome: Art forgery brings a prison sentence, not death. Public opinion swoons—Van Meegeren becomes briefly the most popular man in the Netherlands.

5. Peeling Back the Myth (23:49–29:34)

• The Double Hoax: The story Van Meegeren told the court is itself calculated—a new layer of deception.
• The “folk hero” image is at odds with his behavior: he was an opportunist, not a resistance figure.
• Origin Story: Follows Van Meegeren’s life as a failed artist, party scene regular, and career forger skilled in deceit and self-mythologizing.
• He began with forging tempera works before perfecting his Vermeer grift just as Europe descended into war.

6. Technique & The Art Market (29:34–40:12)

• Forging Innovation: He developed credible fakes by:
  • Chemically aging oils with Bakelite and heat
  • Using period materials and brushes
  • Painting in a style not quite like real Vermeer, but more what experts wanted to see—creating a “Biblical phase” for Vermeer that art historians had speculated about.
• Quote: “The thing to do is create an original painting and add a lot of Vermeer touches so… people go, ‘Oh, I didn't know Vermeer did a this.’” – Lizzie (33:10)
• Market Reaction: Experts (notably Abraham Bredius, “the Pope of Vermeer”) fell for the fakes. Museums spent fortunes—up to 60% of their budget—on these paintings.

7. Morality & Pragmatism (41:08–46:12)

• Nazi Collaboration: Van Meegeren sold to whoever paid—Nazi, collaborator, or not. The moral question isn’t simple, especially as the art wasn’t “real.”
• Desperate Times, Opportunistic Crimes: He laundered money into real estate, likely profiting from Amsterdam’s emptied Jewish quarter.
• Nazis as Clients: He sent works, and even dedicated a book “To my beloved Führer.”
  • Quote: “At some point, you gotta make a stand. Do I know if he had hate in his heart? I don’t know. But, like, ugh. There’s pictures of him standing next to SS officers.” – Lizzie (44:57)

8. Aftermath & The Trial (46:12–50:51)

• Nuremberg Context: Compared to Nazi leadership, Van Meegeren’s crimes became less pressing in the public and legal imagination.
• The Dutch public wrestled with whether to see him as a traitor (for selling “national treasures”) or a trickster hero who made idiots of Nazis.
  • Quote: “Either one of our guys has been duping people about one of our favorite guys, Vermeer… or one of our guys is super smart and got one over on one of the really awful guys.” – Lizzie (49:35)
• His light sentence (a year in prison) was influenced by public sympathy and a psychiatric defense about being bummed by poor reviews.
• He died a month after his trial, “going out a hero” in popular memory.

9. Busting the Hero Myth (50:51–53:39)

• Multiple Hoaxes: Nearly every version of the story involves people seeing what they want to see—whether a cuckolded art world, clever forger, or Nazi dupe.
• Quote: “The last big hoax is kind of Van Meegeren’s reputation. You might even say it was forged.” – Lizzie (50:25)
• In reality, Van Meegeren was a talented liar and a con man who managed to write his own legend.

10. The True Hero: Alice Cohn (52:32–53:39)

• Unsung Heroism: Lizzie highlights Alice Cohn, a Jewish forger who risked her life to create fake identity documents that saved hundreds during the Nazi occupation. Her story is presented as authentic heroism compared to Van Meegeren’s opportunistic legend.
  • Quote: “Her entire family was killed by the Nazis, but she survived the war and she got married and had kids… Alice Cohn is the hero.” – Lizzie (53:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They didn’t do the crime because they were busy doing another crime.”
  — Lizzie, describing Van Meegeren’s accidental alibi via forgery (04:31)
• “You gotta paint, paint for your life. You gotta paint for your life. Like, you gotta lip sync for your life, but you gotta lip sync Vermeer.”
  — Lizzie, referencing RuPaul's Drag Race (16:51)
• “Tricking Nazis should be legal.”
  — Dana (21:44)
• “His greatest forgery… his own reputation.”
  — Lizzie (51:25)
• “It sort of is multiple layers of hoaxes, because it’s a lot of people wanting to frame information in the way that they want… and that happened, I feel, like, six different times in this story.”
  — Dana (50:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Theme Setting: 02:41–05:04
• Art Thefts & Nazi Looting: 05:04–08:44
• Tracing the Vermeer to Han Van Meegeren: 10:06–12:59
• Van Meegeren’s Confession and Challenge: 14:01–17:39
• Inside the Court, The “I Tricked the Nazis” Story: 20:31–23:49
• Deconstructing the Myth: 23:49–29:34
• Forgery Technique & Market: 29:34–40:12
• Ethical Quandaries & Nazi Collaboration: 41:08–46:12
• Aftermath, Trial, & Reputation: 46:12–51:00
• The Heroic Forger: Alice Cohn: 52:32–53:39

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is witty, sardonic, and deeply researched, blending pop culture references with historical insight.
• The hosts are self-aware, at times cheeky, and continuously question received narratives and their own emotional responses to the story’s twists.

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Final Takeaway

The Van Meegeren saga is a nest of hoaxes: forgeries fooling experts, self-serving myths rewriting public memory, and a public eager for stories that make them feel clever and righteous. Van Meegeren fooled the Nazis, but he also fooled an entire nation into seeing him as a hero—when the real heroism, as the hosts remind us, belonged to those who saved lives, not reputations or fortunes.

For a folk hero who risked everything for others, the episode spotlights Alice Cohn, whose forgeries truly made a difference.

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Contact the Hosts:

• Instagram: @hoaxthepod
• Email: hoaxthepodcastmail.com

If you enjoyed the episode, rate and review, and share with a friend!

Transcript

[Lizzie Logan]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Tara Davis Woodhull]

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[Dana Schwartz]

You're listening to Hoax, a production of I Heart Podcasts.

[Lizzie Logan]

Folks.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's a hoax.

[Lizzie Logan]

No one ever seems to believe me.

[Dana Schwartz]

When I swear I never was deceiving I'm left wondering. Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about the lies we wish were true and truths.

[Lizzie Logan]

That sound like lies.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm the ghost of Dana Schwartz.

[Lizzie Logan]

And I'm the evil twin of Lizzie Logan. Welcome to the show. Hey, Dana.

[Dana Schwartz]

Hey.

[Lizzie Logan]

So today I have a couple tiny disclaimers before we get into the episode. Okay, great. Number one, I just want to shout out my niece Asha for suggesting this topic.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, my God, that's adorable. Thank you, Asha.

[Lizzie Logan]

Thank you, Asha, for being a fan. And how old is your niece? She is an adult. I think the word these throws people.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not adorable then.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, it's, like, sweet that she. Sweet that she listens.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, thank you, adult Asha. Thank you for listening to the show, sending this in.

[Lizzie Logan]

On the topic of this being a podcast mostly for adults. Yeah, we are gonna be talking Nazi on this episode.

[Dana Schwartz]

Cool. Cool.

[Lizzie Logan]

So if you just aren't in the headspace for that or you have small children in the car, you know, maybe go to the Cottingly Fairies episode. It's very family friendly.

[Dana Schwartz]

Good to know.

[Lizzie Logan]

All right. With all that in mind, Dana, what do you know about art theft during World War II and the paintings of Vermeer?

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, I'm very excited because I know very little, but it all sounds very mysterious.

[Lizzie Logan]

It is mysterious.

[Dana Schwartz]

I think Nazis stole a bunch of paintings that belong to Jewish people.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's sort of my general impression. So I don't know where this episode is going to.

[Lizzie Logan]

Um, it's going all over the place.

[Dana Schwartz]

I can't wait.

[Lizzie Logan]

I would say that this episode is like. It's like one of those Judge Judy episodes where someone couldn't have. Although I guess they don't do murder on Judge Judy. But, like, it's like one of those jokes or something where someone's like, no, I couldn't have. I'm not guilty because at the time that my wife was murdered, I was with my mistress.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Where it's like, they didn't do the crime because they were busy doing another crime.

[Dana Schwartz]

I was getting liposuction.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the alibi isn't as bad as the crime, but it's still.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's still embarrassing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, so during the Second World War, the Nazis are just looting left and right. Some of the biggest art dealers and art collectors in Europe are Jewish families. And so the Nazis takes anything they can get their hands on.

[Dana Schwartz]

How convenient for them.

[Lizzie Logan]

How convenient for them. And Hermann Guring, who is. He is like, the top guy in the Nazi military.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's like, head of the air Force. And then when they take over Prussia, he's gonna get put in charge of Prussia. He is a top guy. He's a big art fanatic, and he collects, like, over a thousand pieces of art. He's like that. This is his. You know, besides the military, this is. His passion, is collecting art.

[Dana Schwartz]

Sure.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he. When the war ends, he turns himself in to the Allies. But before he turns himself in, he had, I think, a plan to escape or run away. He tries to hide all of his art treasures. The war ends, and the Allies discover his art stash. And among his stash, they find a Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

And just for a little context, was this like a looted, stolen stash or like a purchased stash or both?

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, so both. Because purchasing. If you go and you point a gun in someone's face and you say, sell me this painting for the price that I say, like, yeah, you're purchasing it, but, like, you're also kind of looting it because you're gonna name a really unfair price.

[Dana Schwartz]

Got it.

[Lizzie Logan]

But that will a little bit come into play later. Like, whether it's ever, you know, whether there is, like, ethical consumption under Nazism. Like, whether you can ever be held responsible for selling something to a Nazi. Like, that will come into play later.

[Dana Schwartz]

Interesting. Okay, so they find the Allies, find his.

[Lizzie Logan]

His enormous art stash and his prized possession. The most expensive thing he has is a Vermeer called Christ and the Adulteress.

[Dana Schwartz]

Ooh.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. And this is. At the time, it would have been one of the most expensive paintings ever sold. There are not very many Vermeers in the world. You don't need to know that much about Vermeer for this episode.

[Dana Schwartz]

Girl with a Pearl Earring.

[Lizzie Logan]

Girl with a Pearl Earring is one of his paintings. Basically, Vermeer lived a whole long time ago in the Netherlands. He lived in a city called Delft, and there are only 35 or so surviving paintings. And we don't know much about his life.

[Dana Schwartz]

And I. Well, I read the book the Girl with the Prayer, which seemed to be incredibly detailed about his life, given that it is a novel and it is not real.

[Lizzie Logan]

It could be real because we don't know very much about his life. There are a lot of gaps. And finding Gring's art stash is not just a happy coincidence. The Allies are very intentional about finding stolen art and returning it to its proper owners. This is a whole office that they have.

[Dana Schwartz]

Like, post war, this is something that we're putting energy towards.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, yes. Like three weeks post war, like, right after the end of the war, they want to track down every piece of art. This is something that they're taking very, very seriously because the Nazis were very intentional about collecting all of the cultural treasures. So the Allies really want to, with just as much focus and intentionality, undo that and get everybody's art back to where it's supposed to go. Right.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm pro that for the record.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. All right, so they trace this Vermeer to a dealer named. And I'm going to mess up this name. Alice. Alois. Alois Meidel.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Who is not super important to the story, but I think is really interesting. When I was researching this episode, like, I realized how much stuff I didn't know about World War II, even though it feels like we've all heard about World War II our whole lives. He was a Nazi banker.

[Dana Schwartz]

Is he how Goring got this painting? That's the connection.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. Okay. He was a banker, and he would facilitate trades of, like, looted and stolen artworks and property and jewelry and Jewish treasures. And this is the just crazy thing that I was like, his wife was Jewish.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, my God.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he had. He got her declared an honorary Aryan, which I didn't know was a thing. How many years? How many movies have I seen? I didn't know honorary Aryan was a thing.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, God, that's so, like, freaky of him. And viscerally uncomfortable in a lot of different ways.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. And anyway, but so, okay, so they trace it to him, and he, at this point, has fled to Spain.

[Dana Schwartz]

Sure. Where post war?

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, right at the end of the war, when it became clear that the Germans were gonna lose the war, he fled to Spain. He gave back some of his paintings. He sold some others, and then he got to just live to 1970.

[Dana Schwartz]

So. Wow.

[Lizzie Logan]

A lot of people just got away with it.

[Dana Schwartz]

You could have just been, like, walking through Barcelona, sipping a wine after your siesta, and just run into this guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

But the guy that he got it from is this Dutchman named Han Van Meegeren.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

So they go to Han's house because.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is like the Allies after the war, trying to figure out where this painting belongs where this painting belongs.

[Lizzie Logan]

And who sold it to Hermann? Doing business with the Nazis is, first of all, not. Okay. Second of all, in Amsterdam, Vermeer is considered, like, one of their main guys, like, old Dutch masters. And to sell a Vermeer to a Nazi, even through a third party, is considered, like, basically treason.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. You stole. Who. Who got this Nazi money in exchange for Vermeer?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, you. You have sold our cultural heritage to. To. I mean, the Netherlands was taken over, was occupied territory. So you sold our cultural heritage to our occupiers.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

[Dana Schwartz]

You did it.

[Lizzie Logan]

So they trace it to Han Van Meehn. They knock on his door. This is three weeks after the war has ended. And they're like, hey, Van Meegeren. So you had this Vermeer in an. In a Nazi collection. Collection of, like, the. Like, one of the top Nazis. Where'd you get it? And he's like, oh, that doesn't sound. That doesn't sound familiar. Vermeer or Nazi North.

[Dana Schwartz]

Brilliant was a good novel. I haven't heard of that.

[Lizzie Logan]

And they're like, okay, what if we march you at gunpoint to the prison where Anne Frank's family was held before they got put on a train to the camps?

[Dana Schwartz]

Whoa.

[Lizzie Logan]

They're not effing around. Okay? This is three weeks after the end of the war. The Allies are not effing around, so they march him to the prison, and they're like, okay, now that you're in prison, you want to tell us where you got the Vermeer? He's like, that doesn't sound like me. It sounds like you got bad information. And they're like, I don't know if you know this, but selling Dutch culture to the Nazis, That's a capital crime. Yeah, you can die for that. You can literally be killed for that. That is how much people hate the Nazis for.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm gonna say for good reason.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, this is. We don't care that you never wore, like, an SS uniform. People in Amsterdam, they hate you so much. We'll kill you for this.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. You gave them a Vermeer.

[Lizzie Logan]

You gave them a Vermeer. Do you want to tell us where you got it and maybe try to plea this thing down? Oh, and they also had noticed that. So the Netherlands is, like, pretty poor at this point. It's been occupied by the Nazis. They just survived, like, the winter of starvation. And this guy is super rich. He's been throwing parties and eating caviar, and they're like, hey, where'd you get all this money if you're not selling Vermeers? Yeah. And he's like, oh, I sold some Flemish paintings right before the war started. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Real caviar money.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. And they're like, okay, so you could die. So do you want to tell us where you got the Vermeer? And he's like, okay, give me a sec. The painting loophole. Painted it myself.

[Dana Schwartz]

Ho ho.

[Lizzie Logan]

Can't send me to my death for selling a Vermeer if it wasn't a Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

I sold them a Jeff or whatever this guy's name is. Hans.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hans.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. I sold them a Hans.

[Lizzie Logan]

And they're like, okay, nice try. That's a fun loophole. But this Vermeer is from, like, a period of Vermeer's. This is from, like, a series of six or seven paintings from Vermeer's bibliography, all of which have entered the art market over the past, like, decade. And you had a hand in selling all of them, and you're just gonna tell us that you didn't know any of them were gonna end up in Nazi hands, and you just happen to have painted this one? And he's like, oh, yeah, no, I painted all of them. None of those are Vermeers. I'm just an art forger. I'm just a really good art forger. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

This is funny. I like this guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

And they're like, okay. So they go to court.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he has to prove that he forged paintings that Tissot to the Nazis rather than the fact that he sold Vermeers to the Nazis.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's funny because you'd think he would have been excited that he tricked the Nazis. You think he would have been, like, proud about it.

[Lizzie Logan]

He is. He is. And he's also fighting for his life.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

So they go to court and they examine the paintings and they run chemical tests. And the scientists are like, okay, it's possible that these are not by Vermeer. And they bring in this guy, Abraham Bredius, who is known as the Pope of Vermeer because he is the most well known, well respected Vermeer scholar. And they're like, what do you think? And he's like, no, that's Vermeer. That's totally by Vermeer. They're like, okay, well, but you're the one who said it was by Vermeer in the first place, so maybe. Maybe you're just trying to, like, save your own reputation.

[Dana Schwartz]

So.

[Lizzie Logan]

Okay, never mind. Never mind. And Van Meegeren's like, okay, if you X ray the paintings, I'll tell you what's underneath them. Yeah. And he can. And they're like, okay, so these are not by Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. You also think they could have just done like, a big eyes and been like, can you. Okay, paint one for us, Dana?

[Lizzie Logan]

That's the next thing they do, right? Because they're like, okay, we've proven that they're not by Vermeer and that you saw the canvases before they were painted on, but that doesn't mean that you painted them. Yeah, you could have had somebody else paint them. You could have had a collaborator who you're not naming to prove that you and you alone painted all of these Vermeers. Quote, unquote, Vermeers. We're going to give you six weeks, a little house, some paint, and a canvas. And you gotta paint, paint for your life. You gotta pay for your life. Like, you gotta lip sync for your life, but you gotta lip sync Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

You got a lip sync Vermeer for your life.

[Lizzie Logan]

You got a brush. Zinc Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he's like, you know. Okay, fair, fair, fair, fair. Here's the thing. I am an alcoholic and a morphine addict, and I'm obviously in terrible withdrawal because I've been in prison. Cannot work under these conditions because I was drunk and high while I was doing all my paintings. Do you think you could get me drunk and high so that I could do one final painting? And they're like, well, it is Amsterdam, and we're not the Nazis. We just fought a war to prove it. Okay, fine. Okay, fine. Okay, fine. So they give him the stuff that he needs.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, my God.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he paints a painting called Christ in the Temple. And it looks just like all the other paintings. Wow.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yep.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he's like, okay, now that I've proven that I did all these paintings, do you want to know the story of why? Because it's not for Nazi reasons. It's for different reasons.

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[Tara Davis Woodhull]

This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara.

[Hunter Woodhull]

Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

As athletes, our lives are about having.

[Hunter Woodhull]

A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

[Tara Davis Woodhull]

So when it came to getting the.

[Hunter Woodhull]

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[Tara Davis Woodhull]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Lizzie Logan]

And he tells them this tale. He's like I am kind of a Robin Hood of art. I was just a dreamer. I wanted to be an artist, but the critics didn't like me. I had a good Show. But then I had a show that wasn't very well reviewed and they wouldn't give me another chance. So I came up with the plight.

[Dana Schwartz]

Of the sophomore novel.

[Lizzie Logan]

The plight of the sophomore novel. He had like, real gifted kid burnout.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he's like, I was so frustrated, I wanted to get one over on the establishment. So I thought, I'm going to paint a Vermeer and I'm going to trick everybody and that'll show them that they're not as smart as they think they are and that I'm as good a painter as a Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, it's a good plan.

[Lizzie Logan]

So I did, and I was proving a point. And the judge is like, okay, you said you did this for the principal, but you also sold it for millions of dollars. Dollars. Yeah. And Van Meegren's like, well, if I'd sold it for 12 bucks, no one would have thought it was a real Vermeer because that's not what those sell for.

[Dana Schwartz]

I mean, good point. Point Van Mee.

[Lizzie Logan]

And literally everyone's like, God, that is so true. That is so true.

[Dana Schwartz]

And also, you know, point Van Mee. Then he gets millions of dollars.

[Lizzie Logan]

Not a bad knock on effect. And he's like, okay, so you know, the punishment for art forgery is two years in prison. It's not death. So like, can we. Hello? Hello. And they're like. And also, you know, Hermann Guring, he paid money, but he also traded 137 Dutch paintings from his collection in exchange for the Vermeer. So like, I helped keep so many.

[Dana Schwartz]

Dutch paintings, so many real Dutch paintings in the country.

[Lizzie Logan]

You're welcome. Why am I on trial for selling Dutch culture to the Nazis when in fact I sold my own painting in exchange for getting Dutch culture away from the Nazis. How about instead of prison, you give me, I don't know, a medal?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you would be nice.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, you're welcome. A parade.

[Dana Schwartz]

I also kind of, I guess for me, I'm like, why? Maybe it's because forging art is illegal and maybe he wants to keep this scam going, but it does feel like after the war he should have been like, I tricked the Nazis. Hey, everyone, guess what? Hahaha.

[Lizzie Logan]

And maybe he would have. I mean, it was only three weeks after the war that they came knocking on his door.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, but even when they came knocking on his door, he needed a little persuasion. He did.

[Lizzie Logan]

He did.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, again, I mean, forging is illegal. And maybe he wanted to keep selling Vermeers.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, maybe he just Wanted to, like, f. Off to, you know, see how the dust was going to settle.

[Dana Schwartz]

But it does feel like he figured out the spin.

[Lizzie Logan]

And the court absolutely goes for this.

[Dana Schwartz]

Well, I mean, he's. He's correct.

[Lizzie Logan]

They're like, well, you're not really supposed to make money by lying to people, but the people you were lying to were rich art collectors and Nazis, so. Okay, whatever. A year in prison, tricking Nazis should be legal. Oh, absolutely. A newspaper poll finds that after the prime minister, Van Meegeren is the most popular person in the Netherlands. And he really goes out on a high because a month after his trial ends, he has a massive heart attack and dies.

[Dana Schwartz]

Wow. He. I mean, yeah, he gets to go out a hero.

[Lizzie Logan]

And everything I just told you is true in that that is truly the version of events that Van Meegeren told the court.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, no. A double hoax.

[Lizzie Logan]

But, Dana, this is a guy who made all of his money by lying.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, Lizzie. Oh, no.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's gonna happen untwisting the truth, so there's no other shoe to drop. I just want to go back through the story with more detail and more nuance.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay. Okay. So I shouldn't be on Team Van Meegeren.

[Lizzie Logan]

Well, we're going to go through it, and you can decide for yourself.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

That's the story that people in the Netherlands tell to make him a folk hero.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it omits things, but it is fun.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's fun that a guy tricks the Nazis. And, you know, I'm sure the Nazis thought they were all elitist art snobs who knew everything, and they were just, like, tricked by a guy. Yeah, that's fun.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's totally fun. But, yeah, it's not quite that simple. Okay.

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[Lizzie Logan]

Sorry. Okay, so we're going to go back to the beginning. Yep. 1889.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Two men are born, both of whom will dream of becoming artists.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, no. Oh, no. I think I know one of them.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, One's an Austrian. You want to guess?

[Dana Schwartz]

Is his name Adolf Hitler?

[Lizzie Logan]

His name is Adolf Hitler. We're not going to follow him too closely, but I just think it's interesting they were both born the same year.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Let me check my notes. He will eke out a living as an artist before enlisting in World War I and coming back with some interesting ideas about entering German politics. And again, I'm just looking at my notes here. Blaming the Jews.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay, so Hitler goes and does his thing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yep. He does art and then does his thing. And the other is Han Van Meegeren. He is born in the Netherlands to a middle class Catholic family. And his dad sends him to school to become an architect. But he very quickly decides to be an artist and a painter. And then he gets his Protestant girlfriend Anna pregnant, so he has to marry her and make some money. He teaches for a bit and they have another kid. And in 1917, they move to the Hague, which is not, as I picture it, just one big court, one big courthouse.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's also a place. Who knew?

[Lizzie Logan]

It's a whole city. And at this point, it is actually like kind of the opposite of a court. It's like a royal city and it's like a party town.

[Dana Schwartz]

Fun.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Seems fun for an artist.

[Lizzie Logan]

Totally. And the Netherlands is neutral during the First World War, which I think really sets the tone for how van Meegeren is going to, like, approach right and wrong.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

Because I feel like, Dana, stop me if this is not how you first learned history. But I feel like before I really understood, I don't know, ethics on any deeper level. You grow up hearing that, like, it's good to get along with everybody and it's good to see both sides of an issue.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then you hear like, oh, Switzerland is this like, neutral country, and the Netherlands can be neutral and like, neutral neutral.

[Dana Schwartz]

And you're like, yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And then you're like, oh, wait a minute, no, when there's right and wrong, you're not supposed to be neutral. Yeah, that's second worst after bad. Like.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. So all that need be for the proliferation of evil is for good men to do nothing.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. Like, if you're silent in the face of atrocities, you've taken the side of the oppressor.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

So he's just kind of ignoring World War I. He's partying it up in the Hague, where, you know, people are doing deals with both sides. And I do think it influences his worldview that kind of right and wrong are just abstract concepts. And right is goes to the highest bidder. He gets in with all the socialites and the party people. He's like the go to guy for having your portrait sketched or painted. And that's how he pals around with all of the fanciest to do socialites. And he's making money, but he's spending it kind of as fast as he makes it. He has a girlfriend on the side, she really likes money, she's an actress. He does a show of his artwork that goes pretty well. And then he does a second. That's a lot of religious imagery that doesn't go as well. And again, like I said, he was ignoring World War I, which had a huge effect on art.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he kind of like missed it. He doesn't get what all of these abstract images are about, which is like people trying to make sense of the horrors of war. And like, why would you paint a still life when mustard gas exists? Like, you know, people are painting all of these abstract images and shapes to, to try to reckon with the horrors. And he's like, ugh, that's terrible. I'm gonna, I'm gonna paint. You know, he like gets a little bit famous for this, like, drawing of a deer that he does. Oh, all right.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he's like, I saw a deer. That was cool.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. And it's like, dude, you could work harder.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, you can try to figure out what's in the air.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, you could be original. But nope, he just wants to paint like Jesus and cute girls. So yeah, he just goes to copying older stuff that he'd like, studied in school. And you know, I don't think that your taste in art necessarily reflects your taste in politics, but it is worth noting the Nazis also hated modern art.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. They hearkened back to conservative in the classical sense. Imagery and ideology.

[Lizzie Logan]

He's not an open minded guy.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he likes the classics.

[Lizzie Logan]

He likes old fashioned things. Sometime between his first and second shows, he gets involved in the underground art forgery scene, which is like very robust.

[Dana Schwartz]

Sure.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like there's rings and layers and art forgery is popping off in the day.

[Dana Schwartz]

It really does seem like before the Internet it must have been really easy just to forge things because like, how are you going to check?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, how are you going to check? Museums a little bit made it easier to check. And they would produce catalogs that had either pictures or at least descriptions so that you couldn't make duplicates of things, but you could make artworks that didn't exist and pretend that they existed quite easily.

[Dana Schwartz]

You're like, yeah, of course. The famous Vermeer painting of grapes. And everyone has to be like, yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dust grapes. At this time, forgers were mostly copying artists who worked with tempera paints. Because with oil paints you actually have to let them harden over hundreds of years or else they can be dissolved with alcohol.

[Dana Schwartz]

So it's like pretty obvious it's a modern forgery.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. To anyone who knows anything about art. So he doesn't start with Vermeer because Vermeer worked in oils. He starts with artists that we're just gonna skip. Cause this isn't about them. But basically, he gets going for, like, all of the 20s and into the 30s before he sort of enters his copying the old Dutch Masters period. He'll sort of spin it that he, like, just up and out of the blue, started copying Vermeer. Like, no. He had a full career as an artforger. He was a liar. Do I think that he cared about getting one over on the establishment? Yes. I also think he liked making money and wanted to keep making money.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Like you. You are, quote, unquote, getting one over on the establishment because the establishment didn't make him rich with his own paintings. So he's, like, great. I see. He smelled an opportunity. It sounds like.

[Lizzie Logan]

Absolutely. And if it works once, it can work again. He became a really intense alcoholic. He partied a lot. He bought a giant apartment along the French Riviera and, like, hung out in France a bunch.

[Dana Schwartz]

Must be nice.

[Lizzie Logan]

Must be nice. As that other guy is coming to power the other failed artist, he starts making Vermeers. I will say the art market in Europe at this time is pretty scarce. A lot of museums and collectors have packed up their wares and either hidden them or shipped them overseas because they can tell that war is ruined.

[Dana Schwartz]

I was gonna say, oh, is something happening in Europe?

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, things are kind of bad. So it's not exactly war profiteering, but it is sort of opportunism.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it also helps that there are not other real Vermeers on display for people to compare things to.

[Dana Schwartz]

Sure.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he has two big innovations. Number one is that he discovers, through a lot of trial and error, that if you mix the oil paints with Bakelite, which is a plastic that you can get in liquid form, and then you put it in the oven, it'll harden so it can pass the alcohol test. And number two, he realizes that the way to dupe people is not to make an almost perfect Vermeer, because if you paint really, really close to the style of Vermeer, people will just see the small ways in which it is not Vermeer. Ooh.

[Dana Schwartz]

Okay.

[Lizzie Logan]

The thing to do is create an original painting and add a lot of Vermeer touches so that people go, oh, I didn't know Vermeer did a this.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And there's no real analog to compare it to.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. It's not a copy of a Vermeer. It's like a new type of Vermeer, a new genre Vermeer.

[Lizzie Logan]

He invents this new period of Vermeer's paintings in which he did a bunch of religious paintings, because that's, like, kind of his whole deal. And this theory that Vermeer had had a biblical phase had also sort of been proffered by this guy, Dirk Hanima, who is the director of a museum in Rotterdam. So he's also a little bit, like, planting seeds that he knows Dirk wants to harvest.

[Dana Schwartz]

So he's creating a lie that people are ready to believe.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. And that, like, you know, I guess, like, could be true according to this one sort of expert guy. It's also just funny because, like, now, in hindsight, they don't look anything like vermeers.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

In 1937, he completes this painting, the Supper at Emmaus, which shows Jesus and some of his disciples eating bread after the resurrection. And through intermediaries, he.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's a cute scene.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. He's like, hey, guys, I'm back.

[Dana Schwartz]

You want to, like, hang out, grab lunch?

[Lizzie Logan]

It's. He was, like, wandering through, I think, the desert, and he meets his old disciples. And at first, they don't recognize him. And then they're like, wait a minute. Didn't we bury you a few days ago? And he's like, it's me. I'm back. You have to grab a bite.

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm starving.

[Lizzie Logan]

And three intermediaries, he calls up Abraham Bredius, the Pope of Vermeers, and they show him the painting, and they're like, well, this has a Vermeer signature on it. What do you think? And he's like, I found a new Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes. Oh. Because it's another. It's a lie people want to believe because it would, like, make this guy's career. He found a new Vermeer.

[Lizzie Logan]

He found a new Vermeer. And not only did he find a new Vermier Vermeer, it's the best Vermeer in the world. He loves it. He's like, this is his masterpiece. This is Fuck Girl with a Pearl Earring. Fuck that milkmaid.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

This is the best Vermeer in the whole world. And they. And he calls up, like, another expert to be like, look at this Vermeer I found. And the other expert is like, that is fake. That looks so fake. And Abraham Bradius is like. And he publishes a thing in, like, you know, the most whatever August journal of the day being like, new Vermeer. Got new Vermeer. Found it. Some, you know, old farming family happened to have it in their attic. Don't worry about it. New Vermeer. And the. Dirk Hannema, the director of the museum that I mentioned, he buys it for many millions of pounds. Because tale as old as time, his museum didn't have a Vermeer, didn't want.

[Dana Schwartz]

To have a Vermeer.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he wanted to compete with all the other museums that had had all the Dutch masters. So the God of Vermeer. And now Van Meegrin has kind of got it made because he has his process and he doesn't even really need to make more Vermeerish paintings. He just needs to make more paintings that look like separate Emmaus. Because now he's established that that's a.

[Dana Schwartz]

Vermeer, that's the style. And now if you match the style, you've done it right.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like now he's established that like, oh, Vermeer had this heretofore unknown period where he painted like this and he painted these types of things. So he paints like just another picture of Jesus, more Bible scene. And he. And they get kind of like worse and worse. But people just keep believing it because it's like, oh yeah, like I guess it's all from that period where Vermeer painted like this.

[Dana Schwartz]

And it also is like, it's like 100% true that this is a painting by the guy who painted Sephiroth. I mean like you 100% got nailed it.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, like, it's just that that guy's not named Vermeer, he's named Van Meegeren. Yeah. Yeah.

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[Lizzie Logan]

To his credit. I guess. Like he is quite attentive to detail. He uses the exact materials that Vermeer used. He uses the exact brushes that Vermeer used. He paints on top of canvases from Vermeer's time. Like it is a good forgery.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not a lazy forgery.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's not a lazy forgery. You know we talk on this podcast like were people in the past dumb? Like nope. Like this is a very He's a Very skilled forger.

[Dana Schwartz]

What were they gonna do, Google it?

[Lizzie Logan]

No. No. And this is. This is not something that they could do. A Dutch museum buys his washing of the feet painting using 60% of their budget.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, no.

[Lizzie Logan]

That they have because they want to keep it in the country and keep the Germans from getting it. And it's so ugly. And he just really has exposed the art world. But, like, he just hasn't said that he exposed them.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah, he's taking advantage.

[Lizzie Logan]

So. Okay. I mean, it's like, a bummer, but, like, I kind of want to pause here to talk about, like, at this point, the Nazis have occupied the Netherlands. I don't know if he was seeking out buyers. Once the word is out there, I don't know if he could control who bought his paintings. Yeah, I don't know if he could have refused to sell them to Nazis, and I don't think he would have.

[Dana Schwartz]

And it's also. It's so just to be clear, he didn't, like, do this for. He wasn't just, like, a guy who's like, I'm gonna trick Nazis.

[Lizzie Logan]

No, he was a poor. He wanted to be rich.

[Dana Schwartz]

Who was selling to whoever was buying.

[Lizzie Logan]

He was selling to whoever was buying. I mean, human life is always more important than a painting. So, like, I would never expect anyone to stick their neck out, really, in any way over issues of painting. Yeah, like, when you hear Nazi collaborator, you're like, oh, fuck that guy. And then when you hear, like, painting seller, I'm like, I don't know about that. And then if it were a real Vermeer, then that's sort of in a gray area because it is, like, a cultural artifact. But if it is just a forgery, I'm like, and he never was a forgery.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's not like he thought it was a Vermeer.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah, like, let whoever wants to buy it, buy it. Like, you know what?

[Dana Schwartz]

If I, I. I understand where it's like, if I was making forgeries and someone I freaking hated was like, I'll pay you millions of dollars for this worthless garbage, I'd be like, great. Yeah. But it's also.

[Lizzie Logan]

I mean, and we got into this in, like, the Salvatore Mundi episode where, like, the prince who has, like, overseen executions bought that painting at auction, though. And you can't control who enters an auction. Like, once you're in bed with skeevy people. You're in bed with skeevy people.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, period.

[Dana Schwartz]

Period.

[Lizzie Logan]

And, like, it doesn't get much skeevier than the Nazis on The record. On the record. Yeah. Lizzie Logan, anti Nazi. He divorces his second wife. Ooh.

[Dana Schwartz]

So we're already on a second wife.

[Lizzie Logan]

Already on a second wife. But only so that if he's caught and his money is taken away, that they won't get most of his money. Cause he gives her all his money before they get divorced. So he, over the course of his career, has amassed or spent. I don't know how much he, like, has in the bank, but basically he earns the $30 million. Wow.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

In, like, today's money. So he really lived the high life while people were starving. He could have quit at any point. He didn't need to keep doing this.

[Dana Schwartz]

Or he probably could have. He kept selling forgeries to Nazis, but, like, used the money to help people, which I imagine he did not do. Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And he was really living the high life.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

So 1945, knock at the door. Van Meegeren is arrested. Shortly after he's arrested, while the Allies are cleaning out one of Hitler's libraries, they find a book of Van Meegeren's drawings that Van Meegeren had sent to Hitler in 1942 of, quote, unquote, Vermeer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Drawings or Van Meegeren drawings, Van Meegren.

[Lizzie Logan]

Drawings, and had handwritten a dedication that began, to my beloved Fuhrer.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh.

[Lizzie Logan]

The book included poems that were written by a member of the SS who Van Meegeren had met on at least one occasion.

[Dana Schwartz]

Mm.

[Lizzie Logan]

And Van Meegren's like, okay, that's my signature. But somebody else wrote the dedication. And they're like, well, this is your exact handwriting. Although, you know, when we're talking forgers, I guess anybody can do about anybody's handwriting. So I don't know. Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

But also, it sounds like this guy was willing to make Nazis happy if it means they would pay him millions of dollars.

[Lizzie Logan]

To me, he's really like the characters in the Sound of Music who are just willing to go along to get along.

[Dana Schwartz]

He's the Baroness.

[Lizzie Logan]

The Baroness and her friend.

[Dana Schwartz]

Her gay best friend.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it's like, you know, at some point, you gotta make a stand. Do I know if he had hate in his heart? I don't know. But, like, ugh. There's pictures of him standing next to SS officers. Like, that's so horrible.

[Dana Schwartz]

It's so interesting. And I feel like there needs to be a play about this guy if there isn't already, because it is so easy to just make him a hero where it's. He's a guy who duped Nazis. Isn't that funny? And.

[Lizzie Logan]

And it is funny.

[Dana Schwartz]

And it is funny. And, like, you do want that just to be a hero, but you're like, and he was just a bad guy.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. It's like, why were you in bed with Nazis in the first place?

[Dana Schwartz]

It sort of felt like if he had real Vermeers, he would have sold those to Nazis. Right.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's one of those things where it's like, hey, guess what? I guess what I stole when I was at this Nazi's house. And it's like, dana, why were you at the Nazi's house? You know what I mean? Like, it's one of those things where you hear a great story and then you're like, wait a minute. You know, like, another sort of point of interest, I guess, is the way he laundered all his money is by buying houses. How many of those houses in Amsterdam were empty because a tenth of Amsterdam was Jewish and had recently been shipped out of Amsterdam? I don't know.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Did he mean to do that or was just that the real estate that was available? Probably. I don't know.

[Dana Schwartz]

Both.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. So we're in 1945. Hermann Goering is on trial in Nuremberg along with the rest of the top Nazi officials. It's unclear if he ever found out his Vermeer was a fake.

[Dana Schwartz]

I hope he did.

[Lizzie Logan]

I hope he did, too. And some sources have written that he did. And then other sources are like, yeah, we'd like to think that, but there's no evidence that he did.

[Dana Schwartz]

Classic lie. We all want to believe. You all want to find out someone, him to be like, well, at least I got to look and hold hold of Vermeer. And someone's like, it was a fake.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. He was convicted of many things, including crimes against humanity. Yes. And he was sentenced to be hanged. But the night before he was supposed to. That was supposed to happen, he committed suicide with a cyanide pill. Van Meegeren's trial, which is not in Nuremberg, it's in Amsterdam, because I don't think he broke international law. I think it was just Dutch law. It doesn't actually happen until 1947. And I'm just speculating here, but I think he benefited from going after, like, the big guys. Yeah. Yeah. Because if it is 1945, the war has just ended, and you hear, guy got money from Nazi, you're like, hang him. Yeah. And then you watch the Nuremberg trials and you hear about the most horrific things in the world and the torture.

[Dana Schwartz]

And manipulation and murder and, like, truly crimes against humanity.

[Lizzie Logan]

Truly the worst things that humans have ever done to each other. And then you see this guy who, to be clear, as far as we know, never held a gun.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Was never enlisted as a member of the Nazi party, never visited a camp, never wore a Nazi uniform. Like, never did any of those things.

[Dana Schwartz]

He was looking out for number one.

[Lizzie Logan]

And kind of the worst piece of evidence against him is that he sent a guy a book five years prior. Yeah. I don't think there's that much juice to be like, get him.

[Dana Schwartz]

You're like, that's. It's funny because in a certain light, that light. You tell me. You're like, well, that's just a selfish guy who was looking out for number one. And then also, like you said, he was, like, became a beloved figure in the Netherlands because it's like, you can be a folk hero because you're like, actually, he tricked the Nazis.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's just like, don't we have bigger fish to fry than the art forger who sent Hitler a book?

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, are you serious? Do you remember what we saw at Nuremberg? Like, shouldn't we be going to Argentina and hunting down the Gestapo captains who got away? I don't give. Like. I think a lot of people were like, who gives a shit what the art forger did? No, I don't care.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Logan]

You're like.

[Dana Schwartz]

And he forged them.

[Lizzie Logan]

They weren't real.

[Dana Schwartz]

Vermeer.

[Lizzie Logan]

Whatever, man. So I do think that's a little bit the vibe that he walks into when he starts weaving his tale of being a folk hero. And the people of the Netherlands at this point are like, well, this could kind of be interpreted one of two ways. Either one of our guys, because he is Dutch, either one of our guys has been duping people about one of our favorite guys, Vermeer, and also collaborating with one of the worst guys, Gurring. Or one of our guys is super smart and got one over on one of the really awful guys.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. It's a fun story because it makes the Nazis look dumb and gullible, and.

[Lizzie Logan]

It makes the Dutch look awesome.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yeah. Smart. And they're tricksters. Yeah. Great. Be on the team of the fun trickster and not the, you know, horrible Nazi collaborator.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah. So ultimately, they're like, you know, Han was on whatever side was good for Han. The painting in the court was really a publicity stunt. They covered up the fact that he was a Nazi sympathizer. That detail was in the paper, but it never really came before the court. It kind of.

[Dana Schwartz]

Sorry to interrupt, but it sort of is, like, multiple layers of hoaxes, because it's a lot of people wanting to frame information in the way that they want. They want to believe the story that they. They want to believe. And that happened, I feel, like, like, six different times in this story.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yep, that's the story.

[Dana Schwartz]

And the last big hoax is kind of Van Meegren's reputation.

[Lizzie Logan]

You might even say it was forged. The judge apparently was very swayed by all the psychiatrists who said that he was, like, super bummed out by the bad reviews that his previous art show had gotten and so gave him a lesser sentence because of that.

[Dana Schwartz]

I also want to say, if anyone ever gives me bad reviews, I want permission to do crimes.

[Lizzie Logan]

But not with Nazis.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, no, Never with Nazis, but just crimes in general.

[Lizzie Logan]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Dana Schwartz]

If I'm bummed out.

[Lizzie Logan]

So they're, you know, they're latching onto, like, whatever rationale besides fascism that they can. He was a con man.

[Dana Schwartz]

He was a con man.

[Lizzie Logan]

He was a con man. Should he have gotten more time in prison? I have absolutely no idea. He died pretty much immediately. So, like, whatever. He was 58, and he got all that fame that he wanted. He's known as the most successful forger.

[Dana Schwartz]

Of all time, and he was able not only to forge Vermeers, but forge a reputation for himself as a folk hero.

[Lizzie Logan]

Exactly. His greatest forgery. Yeah. Dana, we can't play who would cast this in a movie because there already was a movie about this.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh, there was. Because I'm like, this would be a good movie. And also I feel like would be a good play. What was the movie?

[Lizzie Logan]

It's called the Last Vermeer. It came out in 2021.

[Dana Schwartz]

Oh.

[Lizzie Logan]

Guy Pearce plays Van Meegeren.

[Dana Schwartz]

Was it good?

[Lizzie Logan]

I watched the trailer, but I didn't want to watch the movie because I didn't want to accidentally ingest fiction.

[Dana Schwartz]

Yes.

[Lizzie Logan]

Like, I didn't want to have that color. My understanding. I do believe that this whole episode improved art history's accuracy. Like, you can't really ask someone's opinion. Like, just asking an expert's opinion is no longer enough to verify that a certain painter did a certain painting. Yeah. But I. There was a really interesting BBC documentary about this that I watched that made a point that I want to end on. Great. Or we can keep talking, but I want to include, which is that at this time, there was another forger working in Amsterdam named Alice Cohn. Do you know where I'm from?

[Dana Schwartz]

I'm giving Lizzie a look, but keep going.

[Lizzie Logan]

Do you know who she is.

[Dana Schwartz]

No, but I hear a Jewish name.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yes. So she deserves all of the admiration and folk hero status that Van Meegeren got because she used her forger skills to make fake identity cards for Jews that didn't identify them as Jews so that they weren't targeted or shipped out or sent to work camps. And she saved hundreds of lives. And her entire family was killed by the Nazis, but she survived the war and she got married and had kids. Dana has goosebumps that she's showing me. And she lived to the year 2000. So Alice Cohn is the hero. Van Meegeren had a very funny story that you can totally think is funny, but Alice Cohn is the hero of this episode. So look her up if you're looking for a hero, listeners. Ugh. I love that because she could. She could forge things, too. She could forge signatures and stamps and other sort of official government documents.

[Dana Schwartz]

Lizzie, that's such a good note to end on. Thank you, documentary, and thank you, Lizzie.

[Lizzie Logan]

You're welcome.

[Dana Schwartz]

Please find us online on instagram. Hoax the pod. Email us if you have anything to say.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoaxthepodcastmail.com yeah, give us a rating, a review, a subscription. It really helps. And share it with a friend you think would be interested. We love telling the stories and we really want to keep going.

[Dana Schwartz]

If you have ideas for for Merch for us, send that to the email.

[Lizzie Logan]

Oh, my God. Are we doing merch?

[Dana Schwartz]

I don't know.

[Lizzie Logan]

It's the first I've heard of this.

[Dana Schwartz]

I haven't thought of it. If someone has a good idea for merch, send it or requests, send it to Instagram or the email.

[Lizzie Logan]

Yeah.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thank you so much for listening. We have a blast doing this.

[Lizzie Logan]

Please hook responsibly.

[Dana Schwartz]

Bye.

[Lizzie Logan]

Hoax is a production of I Heart Podcast. Our hosts are Dana Schwartz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer Rima El Kayali and producers Noams Griffin and Jesse Funk. Our theme music was composed by Lane Montgomery. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. Janice Torres here, and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Business, Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.

[Dana Schwartz]

We're back for season four to talk.

[Lizzie Logan]

To some incredible small business owners. The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Lizzie Logan]

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[Lizzie Logan]

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