Podcast Summary

Podcast: Hold These Truths with Dan Crenshaw
Episode: EPA: The Real Deep State and How To Fix It | Andrew Wheeler
Date: March 7, 2025
Guest: Andrew Wheeler, former EPA Administrator and partner at Holland & Hart

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the inner workings, inefficiencies, and reform possibilities of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Host Dan Crenshaw and guest Andrew Wheeler, former EPA Administrator, discuss the challenges of bureaucracy, the concept of the “deep state” within agencies like the EPA, and practical lessons for improving government processes, particularly permitting and regulatory reform. They examine differences between business and government cultures, oversight, legislative hurdles, and the often-unseen environmental progress in the U.S.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Permitting Reform and Lean Management

• Virginia Model: Wheeler describes successes in Virginia’s regulatory reform using the Lean Management System, inspired by Toyota’s process optimization methods.
  • Transparency: Creation of online Gantt charts for all permits at permits.virginia.gov, allowing the public and stakeholders to track progress and bottlenecks.
  • Accountability Mechanisms: Automated email alerts for overdue actions, escalating up the managerial chain to enforce accountability.
    • “Once you start tracking that process, that alone kind of creates accountability... and transparency just does an amazing thing. Shine light on something, and you get a lot of reforms.” — Andrew Wheeler [05:18]
  • Results: Virginia reduced permitting times by 70% over two years.
• Replication Potential: Wheeler believes this can be implemented at the federal level or in other states, noting low costs and scalability.
• Legislative Possibilities: Dan Crenshaw expresses interest in codifying these methods into law.
  • “That’s a pretty concrete, at least procedural change in the federal government.” — Dan Crenshaw [06:46]

2. Business Principles in Government

• Core Differences: Crenshaw contrasts business and bureaucracy, noting government’s lack of profit-driven mission and the subjectivity of environmental goals.
  • “In a business you have built in efficiencies because everybody is profit driven... That’s not the same in a bureaucracy.” — Dan Crenshaw [07:51, 08:49]
• Defining the ‘Customer’: Wheeler argues that government employees must see the public—not just “the environment” or internal stakeholders—as their customer to improve results.
  • “It’s the American public. And to make sure that you’re serving the American public... you can get better performance out of your team.” — Andrew Wheeler [11:16]
• Effect of Transparency and Peer Pressure: Visual tracking/tools led to improved staff performance, and some resistant older staff chose to retire.
  • “You have a team of five people and everybody can see that one person isn’t pulling their weight... that puts peer pressure on that fifth person.” — Andrew Wheeler [12:52]

3. EPA Accomplishments vs. Public Perception

• Unheralded Progress: Wheeler asserts that, despite negative press and political opposition, the EPA under Trump achieved significant environmental improvements:
  • Twice as many Superfund cleanups as the prior administration
  • Air pollution down 7%
  • Water quality up
  • Lower CO2 emissions
  • “Across the board, all the environmental indicators improved during the first Trump administration.” — Andrew Wheeler [17:22]
• Media & Incentive Structures: Media and environmental advocacy groups focus on alarmist messaging, obscuring real gains, because positive news doesn’t generate funding or clicks.
  • “The environmental community raises a lot of money off of scaring people... you’re not going to raise money if they say ‘Air is cleaner.’” — Andrew Wheeler [22:43]

4. Philosophical Differences in Environmentalism

• Regulatory Overreach: Crenshaw critiques continual tightening of standards (e.g., particulate matter levels) regardless of cost or feasibility, leading to scenarios where projects become impossible due to natural (background) pollutants.
  • “If you lower those standards... but then you have a bunch of wildfires, well, you just made it impossible for you to build anything in California.” — Dan Crenshaw [22:08]
• Law of Diminishing Returns: The pair discuss how 80% of pollution reductions came at 20% of the cost, but further gains are exponentially more expensive.
  • “Just because one regulation is good doesn’t mean ten more are better.” — Dan Crenshaw [24:02]

5. The “Deep State” and Federal Bureaucracy

• Structural Challenges: EPA political appointees are outnumbered—about 120 appointees to 16,000 career staff. Wheeler categorizes employees into high performers (⅓), low performers (⅓), and the middle third who need close management.
• Barriers to Reform: Firing underperformers is nearly impossible without a government-wide “reduction in force.”
  • “It’s very difficult to fire somebody without a government-wide rift, reduction in force. That is hard to do.” — Andrew Wheeler [34:56]
• Deep State Definition: The “deep state” described here is a combination of ingrained internal bias, red tape, and procedural inertia used to ‘control’ government employees.
  • “That’s kind of what the deep state is, right? That internal bias.” — Dan Crenshaw [09:36]

6. Legal Bottlenecks and Judicial Delays

• Litigation as a Delay Tool: Environmental groups use the courts to stall projects, and it can take a decade or longer for significant regulations/cases to reach the Supreme Court.
  • “It takes so long to get a case through the court system... Most people, most businesses won’t stick with an issue like that.” — Andrew Wheeler [39:38]
• Examples: Endless litigation over projects like wetlands permits (WOTUS—“Waters of the United States”) hamper infrastructure and energy projects, sometimes conflicting with clear Supreme Court rulings.

7. Global Environment, Energy, and Offshoring

• Energy Production: Wheeler and Crenshaw argue that U.S. manufacturing is cleaner and more responsible than abroad. Offshoring shifts pollution rather than eliminating it.
• Chinese Competition: China’s lax standards and dominance in rare earths/processing are a concern; U.S. holds reserves but policy and permitting hurdles block development.
  • “We can mine just about anything here in the US and make it environmentally sustainable, but you have to have the will to do that and then you have to unlock our reserves.” — Andrew Wheeler [32:19]

8. Permitting Timelines and NEPA Reform

• Permit Delays: Despite Trump-era NEPA reforms requiring permits within two years, delays still abound (e.g., the 10 West Transmission Line).
• Potential Reforms: Further legal reforms needed—deadlines on legal challenges, possibly automatic approvals after deadline passage.

9. Delegating to States and Oversight

• State vs. Federal Roles: Devolving more permitting and enforcement authority to states recommended, with the EPA acting as reviewer rather than overseer at every step.
  • “You need to delegate it and let the states run with it.” — Andrew Wheeler [46:05]
• Congressional Oversight: Congressional committees could ramp up targeted oversight to improve agency function even with a Republican administration.

10. Codifying the EPA: Structure and Future Prospects

• Current Status: EPA was created by executive order, lacks an “organic statute.”
• Debate Over Law: Both parties have failed in past efforts to codify, stumbling over policy inclusions (e.g. environmental justice for Democrats, cost-benefit for Republicans).
  • “You have to have that transparency first, before you can get a process improvement.” — Andrew Wheeler [49:42]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Transparency just does an amazing thing. Shine light on something, and you get a lot of reforms.” — Andrew Wheeler [05:18]
• “That’s kind of what the deep state is, right? That internal bias.” — Dan Crenshaw [09:36]
• “You have to know who your customer is. In the public sector, it’s the American public.” — Andrew Wheeler [11:16]
• “Air quality is between 80 to 85% cleaner than it was in the 1970s... and there’s not a realization.” — Andrew Wheeler [22:26]
• “Just because one regulation is good doesn’t mean that ten more are better.” — Dan Crenshaw [24:02]
• “The one thing I ask of the energy sector is, ‘Just leave us alone. We can outcompete everybody.’” — Dan Crenshaw [28:52]
• “I was EPA administrator, I gave a speech... there’s a reason why EPA was the villain in the Simpsons movie and the original Ghostbusters movie.” — Andrew Wheeler [35:07]
• “What power do [federal workers] have—more important is what power do they have? That’s... everything.” — Dan Crenshaw [45:23]
• “EPA is 50 years old, states have been doing this for 50 years.” — Andrew Wheeler [45:32]
• “You have to have that transparency first before you can get a process improvement.” — Andrew Wheeler [49:42]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Wheeler’s Background: [00:24–01:25]
• Lessons from Virginia's Permitting Reform: [01:33–07:13]
• Applying Lean Management & Transparency: [02:29–07:10]
• Business vs. Bureaucracy; Defining ‘Customer’: [07:42–12:48]
• Media, Public Perception, and Environmental Accomplishments: [13:52–23:22]
• Law of Diminishing Returns in Regulation: [23:52–24:31]
• Energy Policy, China, and Environmental Trade-offs: [24:55–28:52]
• Barriers to Reforming Federal Workforce (‘Deep State’): [32:44–35:07]
• Impact of Litigation and the Courts: [36:10–39:46]
• WOTUS and Regulatory Overreach: [39:46–41:51]
• Permitting Reform Directions and Legislative Hurdles: [42:41–44:51]
• Delegating to States & Congressional Oversight: [45:32–47:29]
• EPA Codification Debate: [47:58–49:42]
• Closing Thoughts on Reform and Opportunities: [49:49–50:38]

Conclusion

This episode provides a deep dive into the practical and philosophical barriers to regulatory reform at the EPA, highlighting the potential for process improvements—especially increased transparency and accountability. The conversation exposes the complexity of federal oversight, the cultural rift between business and bureaucracy, and both parties’ roles in shaping the modern EPA. Wheeler gives practical, replicable examples for improving efficiency, and the discussion ends with optimism for bipartisan progress—if the right structural changes are championed.