The Courage Crisis in Congress | Rye Barcott

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hold These Truths with Dan Crenshaw Episode: The Courage Crisis in Congress | Rye Barcott (June 9, 2026)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on the concept of courage in American political life, particularly within Congress. Congressman Dan Crenshaw sits down with Rye Barcott—Marine veteran, author, and organizer of the bipartisan For Country Caucus—to examine what courage looks like in politics, how it differs from bravery, and why it's often absent or misunderstood in today's Congress. Drawing on Rye's new book, featuring "ten profiles in courage" from both parties, the conversation ranges from personal political experience to systemic incentives, media influences, and the future of civic leadership.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Motivation for Rye’s Book on Courage in Congress

• Rye’s inspiration traces back to mentorship from David Gergen and studies of historic profiles in courage (02:22).
• The book features 10 political figures—five Democrats, five Republicans—who took risky positions for causes beyond self-interest (01:55). Notably, it includes a chapter on Crenshaw.
• Goal: Offer insight and inspiration, especially to young Americans, about what true political courage looks like.

2. Defining “Courage” vs. “Bravery”

• Rooted in Stoic philosophy; courage is a deliberate, thoughtful choice in service of something larger than oneself, usually acknowledging risk (05:16–09:18).
• Bravery can be instinctual and sometimes self-serving, whereas courage is inherently selfless and involves a conscious decision-making process.
  • Crenshaw: “Fearlessness is just a death wish. ... Courage has to be selfless.” (08:37–09:18)
• Both agree courage is rare—especially where taking a stand comes with real costs.

3. The Crisis of Courage in Congress and Civic Life

• Although many Americans claim to value courage, they don’t often see or reward it in themselves or their leaders (10:27).
• Political courage is further complicated by the “performance” incentives of social media and partisan media ecosystems, which often reward controversy over substance (12:09–14:39).
• Crenshaw and Barcott discuss the rise of social-media-first politicians (like “The Squad” or MTG) and the lack of “longevity” in such approaches (15:58–16:36).

4. The Problem of Incentives and Voter Responsibility

• Congress "perfectly represents the people," both in virtues and failings; lack of courage in Congress reflects lack of societal courage (10:07).
• Voters often reward politicians for emotionally charged “lightning rod” issues over substantive work (16:35–17:28).
  • Crenshaw: “You gotta stop being obsessed with the lightning rod issues.” (17:28)
• The “new establishment” isn’t party or leadership but a constellation of influencers, media personalities, and podcasters driving narratives—often without accountability (51:32).

5. Challenges in Bipartisanship and Governance

• Politicians working across the aisle face attacks—even from their own side—for mere association with the opposition (21:01–22:01, 34:21).
• Crenshaw cites bipartisan efforts (e.g., with AOC on veteran psychedelics research) getting distorted in attack ads.
  • “It was just so dishonest ... voters cannot distinguish.” (22:01–22:28)

6. Profiles in Courage: Examples from Rye’s Book

• Jared Golden (D-ME): Shifted his stance on assault weapons after a shooting in his district, despite political risk (31:24–33:28).
• Seth Moulton (D-MA): Held the Biden administration’s feet to the fire on the Afghanistan withdrawal, at odds with his party’s leadership (36:35–38:14).
• Mikie Sherrill (D-NJ): Maintained her stance against voting for Pelosi as Speaker, sticking to her promise (40:10).
• Todd Young (R-IN): Quietly shepherded the CHIPS Act with bipartisan support, risking blowback for working with Chuck Schumer (41:19–43:06).
• Mark Kelly (D-AZ): Voted his conscience on border and immigration, sometimes against party consensus, and brings experience as an astronaut and veteran (46:07–47:12).
• Wes Moore (D-MD): Ran on issues of childhood poverty against consultant advice, later taking tough executive stances as governor (47:48–49:13).
• Larry Hogan (R-MD): As a popular Republican governor in a deeply blue state, made bipartisan governing a hallmark—even opposing some in his own party (49:25–50:18).

7. Systemic Obstacles: Primaries, Safe Seats, and Redistricting

• Most congressional seats are “safe,” meaning real competition happens in primaries with low, ideological turnout (24:59–25:56).
• Rye’s For Country Caucus initially focused on swing seats but shifted to supporting candidates in safe districts who demonstrate service and courage.
• Redistricting is a political process with no perfect “fix”; shapes and outcomes (purple/competitive vs. deep red/blue) have complex tradeoffs (25:56–30:12).

8. The Role and Limits of Military Service in Political Leadership

• Having veterans in Congress is valuable, but not a guarantee of good leadership; what matters most is mindset, critical thinking, and a motivation for service (55:31–59:15).
• Crenshaw: “I don’t necessarily care if you’re a veteran. I care if you’ve read books on policy and you want to ... do something.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Courage:

  • “Courage ... is taking a risk in service of others—a knowing risk.” – Rye Barcott (02:22)
  • “Fearlessness is just a death wish.” – Dan Crenshaw (08:38)

• On Political Incentives:

  • “The new establishment ... is the establishment of this, like, influencer, podcaster media landscape, which is just, like, kind of operates in this hive mind.” – Crenshaw (51:32)

• On Voter Responsibility:

  • “Congress represents you. Yeah, people don’t like hearing that.” – Crenshaw (10:07)

• On Political Dishonesty:

  • “There’s a sacrifice ... there has to be some element of sacrifice and cost. And there’s a zero. Right?” – Crenshaw (12:35)

• On Bipartisanship:

  • “It’s not bad to want to come here and grow your social media following … as long as the end goal is to teach people something.” – Crenshaw (14:39)
  • “It was just so dishonest. … Voters cannot distinguish.” – Crenshaw (22:01)

• On the Limitations of Political Reform:

  • “Only an amendment to the Constitution can solve [safe seats and gerrymandering]. And even then, it won’t solve it.” – Crenshaw (25:49)

• On Service-Oriented Leadership:

  • “You should treat the American people like you actually love them. Not like you just want them to like you.” – Crenshaw (57:35)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:22] – Rye Barcott on inspiration for his book and defining courage.
• [05:16–09:18] – Courage vs. bravery: philosophical and practical reflections.
• [14:39–16:36] – The hazards and incentives of entertainment politics.
• [17:28] – Voter obsession with “lightning rod issues.”
• [22:01–22:28] – Bipartisan work distorted in attack ads.
• [24:59–25:56] – Primaries, safe districts, and the For Country Caucus strategy.
• [31:24–33:28] – Jared Golden’s shift on gun policy after tragedy.
• [36:35–38:14] – Seth Moulton’s Afghanistan stance.
• [46:07–47:12] – Mark Kelly’s background and bipartisan voting.
• [47:48–49:13] – Wes Moore’s campaign on childhood poverty.
• [51:32] – The rise of the media/influencer “establishment.”
• [55:31–59:15] – Veterans in Congress: what's necessary in political leadership.
• [57:35] – Crenshaw’s parenting analogy for civic leadership.

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Tone and Style

The conversation is frank, sometimes sardonic, and often self-reflective—mixing Capitol Hill "inside baseball" with civic philosophy, practical advice, and a call for voters to examine their own role in political culture.

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For listeners, this episode offers a nuanced, honest exploration of modern American politics, practical definitions of civic courage, and both hope and challenges for the next generation of public servants.

Transcript

[A]

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created. As a member of Congress, I get to have a lot of really interesting people in the office, experts on what they're talking about.

[B]

This is the podcast for insights into the issues.

[A]

China, bioterrorism, Medicare for all in depth discussions, breaking it down into simple terms. We hold. We hold.

[B]

We hold these truths.

[A]

We hold these truths. With Dan Crenshaw, the eagle has landed. Welcome back. Hold these truths. Got my friend Ry Barkop with us today, former Marine head of the Four Country Caucus or the organizer behind the Four Country Caucus, which is a group of, of, of members, mostly veterans. Right. I think with some exceptions at least, veterans, law enforcement, something like that. Some kind of former public service that get together and try to solve problems. There's a few caucuses like that. This is an effective one focusing more on bipartisan national security issues. God, you've worked in like, like private equity before that and of course, the Marine Corps, written a couple books, one about your transition out of the Marine Corps, I think. Yep. And, and now this new one, which of course I'm, I am featured in, which probably makes it the best chapter. Yeah, yeah. There's one chapter worth reading. It's, it's probably that one. So that'll be the kind of the topic of our discussion today. And it's really an assessment about Congress and American civic life. And you've got 10 profiles here, you say, I guess 10 profiles in courage. And you know, what I want to start with is five Democrats, five Republicans. And you know, well, first of all, why, why'd you want to write this book? What was the, what was driving you to do? Because you've been doing this for a while. I mean, since I, since I first got into politics, actually. When you kind of started. Ye. Yeah. So we've been doing this about the same amount of time. So you see if you've had some experiences to go, to learn from, to go off of and in a way that's captured here. Right. And it might be. And so for people, I guess it's a little bit of inside baseball, a little bit of insight into who's working, how they're working, why they're working, why they're doing the job. But why did you decide to, when did you decide to start and why.

[B]

Yeah, it was, you know, my last book was 15 years ago. It was right after I'd finished graduate school and I got to know David Gergen, the late David Gergen, who became a mentor, Navy veteran, formerly President Reagan's Comms director and bipartisan guy, though served in multiple administrations. So when I was in graduate school, his class filled up and I didn't get into it. So I asked him to do an independent study on speechwriting. He had done a bunch of speeches as a White House advisor and he said, sure. And the way that you can do this is you just come to my house, pick a book, read it, and then we'll discuss it each, you know, each week. And what was so amazing about the experience was that all those books were complete with his notes from over the years. And so, you know, we had Peggy Noonan, we had JFK profiles encouraged. That started my thinking of, oh, this is interesting. These are, these are historical accounts of individuals that were in office from multiple parties that basically took a risk that cost them something. Sometimes they crossed their party, sometimes they crossed the other party, but they did something that actually had some real cost to it in the service of something larger than themselves. And obviously today that's almost the last place that most Americans think about it is Congress and courage. But I make an argument here that even in this body that exists, and in fact the, the levels of pressures that that members face, it, it presents more opportunities than most professions to actually demonstrate courage, which I define as, you know, taking a risk in the service of others, but a knowing, a knowing risk.

[A]

So on writing, especially your personal well being, it's one thing to take like a risk in a business. The business could go under, it could be bad for the business. Yeah. But in politics. Yeah, it's very personal.

[B]

It's very personal. And you're out there and in fact, like just putting your name on the ballot. I've never done it, but that takes it, that takes it. That takes a leap of faith. Now sure, there are some that are just purely self interested, but I think actually most come in with, with decent intentions. And so then the question is, you know, do you, where's, where's the rudder? And so what this book does is it takes, you know, 10 individuals that had made some hard calls at certain moments that matter and says, hey, as a society or why don't we recognize this, appreciate it more, try to try to actually elect more of it. Because that's, I believe that that is

[A]

one of the, the things and like the people in this book, I know some of them, some of them, I wouldn't be able to tell you like what those hard calls were. I'm kind of curious what, what you ended up seeing there. Yeah, I mean, what, what were some of the most Actually I want to, I want to step back because one part of your book is, is, is, is differentiating between the word courage and, and bravery. Yes. Kind of want to unpack that just because I'm like a nerd about, you know, the meaning of words and then how we utilize them. Yeah.

[B]

So I, so I, but I, I basically look back at the, at the Stoics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And where this, because that's, that's really where courage initially was discussed was in, in Plato's Phaedo. And so what he does is he talks about the death of Socrates as one of the moments in history that merged physical courage and moral courage. So Socrates, very interesting example, he's convicted of impiety and corruption of the youth in, in Athens, which is of course one of the first democracies of the world. He could have renounced his views and survived, but he didn't and he accepted a death sentence. And what Phaedo talks about is in this final conversation he's surrounded by his students and talking about the separation of the body and the soul and how he is. He's going to move into the afterlife. And so he meets that mom and, and faces both risk to himself, his reputation, his, his spirit as well as of course his physical. He's. He's about to die. It takes a death sentence.

[A]

I mean this is undoubtedly the definition of courage, but also bravery.

[B]

So like what's the difference? Yeah, so, so I view bravery as something that can be instinctual. It does not necessarily be more fire

[A]

toast, maybe a quick action. Yeah. Is that how you got it defined? I've never thought about this too much. And they're different words so they, they must be, they must have some kind of distinction and.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I suppose I basically don't too. So it's one is this. It can be instinctive. Bravery can be instinctive but it can also be purely self serving.

[A]

It doesn't have to be.

[B]

It can be wider but it's, it's purely self serving. Courage, as I define it, which goes back to the Stoic definitions, is that it must serve something larger than yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There can still be self interest. Listen, most decision in life have some level of self interest but at its

[A]

core there's a. Yeah. I mean you're self interested in maintaining a, A good reputation. Yeah. Which is okay. Yeah. Like. Yep.

[B]

Yeah. It's a human nature piece.

[A]

Yeah. And that's interesting. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because bravery. Yeah. It could be, it could be selfless. I mean I read some notes in here that's like you might define bravery as fearlessness. And I don't actually, I don't believe in fearlessness. So I would only disagree with that part because, you know, people ask like in the military context, you know, like, how do you do these things? They're just so the seals have no fear. And I'm like, yeah, we do. Like just as much as you do. We just ought to compartmentalize it. And we, we engage in risk mitigation probably. You know, it doesn't seem that way from the outside. And our threshold intolerance for risk is higher. We engage in a lot of playing and risk mitigation. But of course we have fear. Like, of course we're just, we just, we've. I mean the only ones comet there's ever coming fe.

[B]

Fear.

[A]

Psychopaths don't have fear. Fear. Totally crazy.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And, and courage is in the face of it.

[A]

That guy who. Free. Free call Free crimes. El Capitan. Oh yeah. From that documentary. Yeah. It's now just, you know, we were talking about this like we. Not me and you, but like me and some friends were like somebody was saying like, you know, he's, they studied him and he's kind of missing this like, like, like part of his brain that does a lot. And that's could be true. But if you're totally fearless, you know, you wouldn't have practiced it a hundred times before doing it.

[B]

That's right. So it's not.

[A]

He's not totally. Because you. So I'm like, guys, like, he just honestly just reminds me of a special operator. You're going to practice it a thousand times to mitigate that risk. Fearlessness is just a death wish. Yeah. So that's the only thing I would disagree with. Admitted you could. Well, it's. You can be both. You could be brave and fearless. But there's a lot of people I think are brave in the face of danger, but damn, they definitely feel fear. They're just willing to overcome it either to practice to protect themselves or to protect others. And I agree with you that the distinction. As I'm thinking, I'm literally thinking out loud because I haven't thought about this. But I think your distinction was interesting and I agree with you. Your distinction is courage has to be selfless. Yeah.

[B]

It has to be selfless. And you h. It has to involve thinking. It's a choice. It's a decision. So. And that decision is usually in the face of fear. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the face of fear. It has to be a recognition of the risks. There has to be an actual analysis going on.

[A]

You know, there's consequences and you're going to do it anyway because you believe it's the right thing. You got it.

[B]

And it might be. And by the way, your analysis might be wrong. No. Or, but, but you are doing the deliberate analysis and you're saying, I, I'm going to accept this risk with these potential costs for something that is larger than myself. And when you put all that together, my view on this is that courage is pretty rare for most people's lives. You don't necessarily have that many moments. Some professions present more than others.

[A]

Like I was going to say, you know, people don't see Congress as a place where there's a lot of courage. And I would say to that that's because Congress represents the people perfectly, because there's just not a lot of courage, period. And so don't be surprised that it's not represented super high in Congress because Congress represents you. Yeah, people don't like hearing that.

[B]

But, but, and there's the, the, the sort of contradiction of it too, where, where we just dropped this poll with gala, which is going to measure American values, including American perceptions of courage. And what we believe we're going to find is that most Americans say they value courage but also don't see it and many times don't necessarily view that. They exhibit them it themselves in their own lives. But in many respects. I wrote this book for students. You asked me why I wrote the book. It was really to try to reach younger Americans. Because I do believe that lives of courage, striving for courage, striving to do something that's larger than yourself, whatever the hell it is, you can serve. You can serve your family, can serve your community a lot of ways, whatever.

[A]

That's all good. That all the time I'm like, do not jump into politics necess maybe, maybe, but please take it through. And I'm like, I hope you choose my side. But like, if, if I'm giving you advice like you were my kid because I care about you, I, I would tell you to just keep an open mind because it acknowledge the fact that you don't know because you're 16 and you don't have the life experiences to contextualize facts coming in. You just don't just wait. Just wait to have strong opinions. Because I don't care what opinion you take, even if I agree with it, I can debunk it in front of you and make you mad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because like so just, just chill. Be a kid.

[B]

Do Americans. What is the American view of courage? Will we be a better country if more Americans actually aspire to it? I think incontrovertibly, yes. And that ties to. To. To service, you know, and so the through lines that every one of these guys. Nine guys and one lady, they all served five, you know, nine in the military, one in the FBI.

[A]

How you solve courage for the American public?

[B]

Is it.

[A]

That's a complicated one because the. The term has been bastardized to. To foment all sorts of revolutionary movements and. Oh, I have courage because I'm speaking up against, you know, and Trump and not really seeing the Epstein files. I'm sorry, you don't have any courage, Tucker Carlson. You. You're showing zero courage. You're just, you know what you're doing in order to get clicks because, you know, you can rile people up with dish.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, but this is being labeled these days as courage. It's insane to me. With, like, media, people get like, oh, what courage they showed. Oh, they're just making more money. Where's the courage? I'm sorry, this is. There's a sacrifice, like, by. By our definition, by the dictionary's definition, I bet it's somewhere in there. It's like there has to be some elements of sacrifice and cost, and there's a zero. Right. So any of these cases and what

[B]

I did with your chapter, and thanks again for participating it, which is completely different from any other, is because you've lived a different life in this building than any other. You have actually dipped into the orbit of these basically unaccountable influencers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They can say whatever they want. They can make up their own version of truth, say it with conviction, and have zero consequences behind it.

[A]

Yep, I know they do have consequences. They get engagement and they make money. Yeah.

[B]

Positive. Yeah, Positive. It's like, it's like reinforcing. Yeah.

[A]

And it's only lately, at least on the right, that they're starting to see negative consequences. Like, Like, I was just ahead of the curve. Yeah. I was the first across the battlefield to get shot up. You know, I guess somebody's got to be a bullet sponge. And. Yeah. Like, yeah, my friend. I was always, like, so accident prone. My friends would. My, my. In the teams, they would joke with me before we went on deployment in Afghanistan that we're fine because, like, bullets are literally going to go around us and hit Dan. And then I got blown up. And that joke wasn't funny anymore, but it was like, we saw it coming, you know, so. Yeah, same here.

[B]

So they wanted you on volunteering.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. We love Dan leading us. He's getting. But yes. Yeah, this, this felt similar.

[B]

I mean, where do you think it could go? I mean, you've, you have, you know the name of the chapter is that. That speech that you give to new members of Congress. Do you want to do something or be somebody? Somebody or do something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you were straddling both of these orbits unlike anybody else, really, because you had a platform coming into this place. So make use of the platform. Right.

[A]

I always said, like, it's not, it's not bad to want to come here and, and grow your social media following and do that. Entertainment style politics. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. As long as the end goal is to teach people something. Yes. And I'm like, lead them, you know, in a, in an honest way. Not lead them in the sense of most. The way most politicians want to lead these days, which is telling people what they want to hear. Now that builds an emotional connection, makes people feel good. It'll get you reelected. I know exactly what I could have said over the years. I know exactly how to get reelected. It's super easy. But you can also just tell people the truth because you, like, this was never a forever thing to me, so I want to just. The only thing that matters to me is 20 years from now and my daughter's old enough to like, care about this stuff. I'll be like, look, I can say for sure that I never did anything that I didn't believe in. And yeah, there's. There's always some places that are gray years, but at least I can. Whatever. I can argue both sides of that. Yep. We can have an honest conversation about it. Too many appear. Just too many thoughts, especially after the 2018 election because that was the first time we had social media stars in Congress. So we, like, you had like me on the right and then you had the squad on the left and that just opened Pandora's box. And I would say it's. It's gone down a little bit. Like, I'm not seeing that in the new classes. Yeah. Just because for the, for the. In my only metric, by the way, is that I don't know anyone's name.

[B]

Yeah. Is that right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, think about it. Like you knew mtg's name right away. Lauren Madison, like, you know all these people's name right away. And you know what I'm thinking I might point out to people, is not a lot of not A lot of longevity in this game. You know, Madison went down and Marjorie went down and Trump just went after Lauren. Bobert didn't sue.

[B]

That, right? That's right.

[A]

It's like there's not longevity in this,

[B]

in this style, go that direction. But I am really hoping there's not

[A]

longevity in mine either.

[B]

Well, that's, that's where I was going to go. I was like, we need more people that will aspire to tell the truth. You don't always necessarily know.

[A]

At least it is, but, you know, it is proud of how I did it. Now, now, in Lauren's case, no, she was, she, she got on Trump's bad side for going after, for, for supporting Massey. She probably feels good about that. I mean, that's okay. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's fine. Again, I'm friends with, I'm actually friends with her and as in, like, you know, so this is not a hit on them. You know, she can probably look her family in the eye like, years from now and be like, no, I did what I thought I was. Right. Yeah, okay, good, good. I have no problem with that. But, you know, but there's, but there's. This is still a very different member than I was, you know, and, and, and, you know, we became friends eventually. But. But it has it at first.

[B]

But, but you were also using your platform to try to actually get things done.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. It the boring things too. And so, like, you know, this is why I tell voters and voters are just have no intention of listening to this for the foreseeable future. Like, you, you got to stop being obsessed with the lightning rod issues. The Epstein, like, the Epstein, like, dude one, we all voted to release them, first of all, so just chill and like, you started caring about this like 5 minutes ago for some reason. I, I don't know why, but that's when, and like the DOJ is, is doing an unprecedented thing which is releasing court documentation is just, that's, that's not normal. There's a reason like, like Clay Higgins voted against that, you know, on principle. Like, you know, it was unpopular to vote against it. And I voted for it despite the lack of legal precedent, but I voted for it because sometimes, like the way I kind of calculate legislation and things, it's like there is such an overwhelming demand for something that I feel that it's okay to vote for it. You know, again, I would never say, I would never vote for something that says, look, the 90%. Look, 90% are in favor of taking the wealth from the other 10%. That goes against very strict principles. This one is. This one is a little bit shaky. Right. It's. You know, it's. You know, there's. There's an accountability question here. It was a tough one. It was an interesting one. And. But. But my point is. Is like, why the. Why the hell are people still about it? Like, we're doing it, right. We're doing it well. This part was blacked out. Yes, it's blacked out. Like, you can't put everything out there. There's victims names. There's. There's people, you know, and also, you're seeing a lot of people just totally trashed who maybe don't deserve to be trashed. I don't. You know, I mean, look, like, just knowing Epstein, is that a. Is that a crime? No. It be bad if you were at his island, you know. Oh, I do want to know who those people are. Yeah. That's kind of why I voted for it. I know my voters want to know,

[B]

are there any commentators that are out there, whether they're elected or not, that you think are able to, like, walk the line of getting to objective truth while also maintaining large followers and, like, not just pander to the outrage that you write?

[A]

It's hard, but they're losing ground. Like. Like, you know, the Daily Wires, my. My best example. Because they. Yeah. I mean, they can be entertaining as a. As a.

[B]

As a cohort.

[A]

They still got a large following, but, you know, they'll. But. But the Tucker Carlson Network is still, like, raging, and Candace's network is. Is still raging. I'm not. I'm not sure how the numbers compare, but they might be losing to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. Which is really scary for America. Yeah. Like, sure is. You know, and Candace and Tucker always knew that there was that market to corner because, look, like QAnon went away. Where's QAnon? Who's. Who's leading that weird thing? Nobody. Who's where? The alt. Right. Who's leading that? And Nobody. The gripers. Nobody. Tucker became their little leader. Yeah. Little lord of the flies of all the. The. The misbegotten boys and. And it mostly is a bunch of incels who can't get girlfriends and, well, any.

[B]

And he would make stuff up, like, you know, call, you know, say that you weren't conservative and, you know, go after you or the insider trading, all that stuff, which is. It's. It's just a lie. But one of the things that I'm Making as an argument here is that in this day and age, just being willing to be. Have relationships with individuals that are not the same half of your tribe as a politician. Take some guts because especially in safe districts like you're like your district, you end up getting hit because, you know, you, you do it, you know, pick your issue.

[A]

I had a weird, I had a weird attack ad on me with aoc, you know, and of course they have to use AI to even make the picture. And I'm like, you idiots. Like, we actually did do a press conference together, but it was on Psychedelics for veterans. Yes. Because what I did was, was, was collect an interesting. I had Matt Gaetz, I had Jack Bergman, I had, I had aoc. You know what, that's why we were successful too because like you break in all these weird, different. And Luke Correa, so like a normal Democrat and aoc, you know, who's right next door to us, by the way. Yeah. And Jack Bergman, you know, you're, you're a former marine general and then, and then me, who's you know, you know, like a little bit more risk taking and, and you know, going for these. Anyway, we were successful and that led to opening the door for tons of more psychedelic stuff. So I'm very proud of that, that achievement. But it's just like, you know, of course the attack ad is just like. Well, he worked with AOC to do Democrats stuff.

[B]

Yeah. I think this happened in the class.

[A]

They, of course they don't mention psychedelic there or anything. Veterans and of course they don't mention that. It's just so dishonest. And by who am I mad at? Am I mad at my opponent for being a dishonest and pathetic. Of course not. I mean, I mean, I expect it from a guy like that. Like he's. I knew who he was. Yes. What's sad is voters don't. What's sad is that voters like just, just cannot distinguish. And I don't know how to solve that problem.

[B]

And the one that, that came to mind too, that really irked me in your race was, was when they hit you on supporting Afghan. You know, you've supported Afghan SIDS, me

[A]

and 400 plus members of Congress, including like Andy Biggs and Jim Jordan, like the most conservative who is such an absurd attack. Again, a little bit of context tells you the story. We just, you, you eventually just run out of firepower. You can't battle back all of these lies. And we in, in, you know, if we were to redo that strategy, we absolutely we would have done what I said from the beginning, which was focus guys, focus on the reason that we even have a primary, which is all of this long list of nonsense lies that are out there. We have to debunk them. Abnormal for a campaign. Nobody listened to me and I'm glad they didn't. You know why? Because I'm in a much better place now.

[B]

Yeah, well that's a whole another thing too.

[A]

That's a whole other like, yeah, part of this. I was bad for a day and then I'm like, wait, this is, I

[B]

mean this is, I feel so much better. Especially for anybody that's younger and has a family. I mean the opportunity cost.

[A]

It was done anyway. Like I was just so.

[B]

But the, the, the, the primary piece is such a problem and it makes our work really hard building up.

[A]

Yeah, we've talked about. Because I mean just for the audience, I mean we kind of mentioned the caucus. But like you started your organization to help veterans get elected.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we've had this argument because I've always said like, look, you guys are playing in races. I don't know if you still do. I don't know your current strategy is. But you're playing in races where you've got like it's usually a purple seat. So it's flippable because what's the point of playing in a deep red or deep blue? You're not going to flip anything. So you're playing in these moderate. Which are fewer and fewer by the way. Well, there's like 11 toss ups these days. Yeah. So you're playing in those and you know, you might have enough firepower to switch it from one moderate Democrat to another moderate Republican. Not achieving a whole lot because in the end it's the district that chooses that type of rep. Now that's not always the case. There's some pretty wild haired ones that come from actual purple districts. Hard to say how they keep winning.

[B]

Well, that's how we started off and then we switched and it was important. From your conversation with us, my advice did work. Yeah. I mean, and also like genius.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Yeah. But also because I told you, like

[A]

that's the only way to make this work.

[B]

And since you started when you first ran, that was our first cycle. That was hard to believe it. I mean almost eight years ago. But the districts have become, you know, there were probably, I don't know, half the districts were safe districts, 60%. They're just more and more years ago. Yeah, actually that's right.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Yeah. 2017 2017. So now we're up to a place where, I mean, you name it, it's probably 80% of the districts are safe districts. So the whole action is on the primary side. And of course, you know, less than 15% of voters vote in the primaries. They're generally more ideological. So one of the things that we do is we try to help recruit vets that run in these districts and then provide them with some early support so that they can actually get off the, get, get out to the races and, and, and, you know, get some traction early on in their primary. Win a primary, because if you win a primary in a safe seat, you know, hopefully you'll be able to be. Be here for a while. But, but the safe seats also dis. Discourage. You know, I mean, the safe seats create their own problems and challenges.

[A]

They do. You're not going to go around you, but you can't solve that.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

From your perspective. That's why it's like you don't solve that. Only an amendment to the Constitution can solve that. And even then, it won't solve it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, or state by state, this interesting conversation on Bill Maher's show the other week about, like, redistricting. And I'm like, look, first, first thing you need to understand is redistricting is a political process. It will always be. I don't care how many independent commissions you make or bipartisan commissions. The, the manner in which those commissions were created was a political process. So just until you want to, until you think you're smarter than the founders, then, then we'll amend the Constitution and, and not leave it up to just state legislatures to handle. But that's how we do it. That's how we do our districting. I get funny answers like, well, I'm like, how should it be? They should squares. I'm like, interesting. So how are you going to put equal populations in the squares? Just. Oh, yeah, it won't work. No, of course it won't work. That's why they're funny shapes. Well, AI could do it. Okay. I was just going to just do it. I mean, okay, maybe, I don't know. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Let's, let's let one state try that out, you know, but, but again, how are you, how, how are you training the AI, Right? What in what factors are you making are you training that AI model to take into account? It's like, come on, guys, you know,

[B]

I mean, you live this redistricting too, because your district went, you know, shifted a number of different times. Three times more conservative by the end.

[A]

Well, yeah, it went from a purple district. This was. This is what's funny about people's misconceptions about districting. Just. Just a real quick note here. Sure. My original district was fairly purple competitive. You know, those. I loved that. That was the best days because I. I love the natural order of things, which is battling Democrats. You know, I know that's not what you want to hear. You like bipartisanship, but. But the natural order of things is honest debate between Republicans and Democrats. And, you know, people are like, I hate the division. I'm like, donate the division. Hate the dishonesty. Right? That's. You distinguish between the two. Love the division. Love it. Be. Be grateful that we're like one of the last countries, maybe the last country with a true 50, 50 split. That is a healthy thing, not a bad thing. Okay? But dishonesty and misinformation is okay. So hate that. And by the way, blame yourselves, because you're the ones who incentivize it, because you believe everything you hear on the

[B]

Internet and still have a space where people from both sides can actually have trust with each other and they don't have to worry about, you know, getting nailed on social media when they come out of a room is talking in a, you know, a classified environment or even just a sensitive environment.

[A]

I don't know how to change that. The American people have to change that. And so quick story on redistricting. Like, my original district was. Was like that. Okay. The shape of it was insane. It looked crazy. I got hit all the time when I first started, like, look at Dan's day, gerrymandered district. And I'm like, I didn't draw it, first of all. I just showed up guys, like, and also, let's break down the ethnic. Like, the ethnicities of. Of this district. It's actually perfectly Texas. It's like 30 white, like, 27 Hispanic. It's like 12 black. The numbers matched, like, 8% Asian. The numbers matched up perfectly. And it's a competitive district. But you don't like the shape because I'll. I just. I mess with it. I'm not messing with people. I just. It's kind of like my civics lesson that I get awesome questions like, what is it? What makes you think a. A district is gerrymandered? And most people will say, well, I mean, look at the shape. And you say, well, that's some interesting single variable analysis. Do you think you should always do single variable analysis? Yeah. No. Okay. Okay. All right, let's deep. Let's dive into this a little bit more because here's my second district after the con, after the census in 2020, and it looks exactly like you would. You would think, oh, this is a good shape. Yeah, it's just like, I have a blob. That's a good shape. Yeah. But I'm like, yeah, it's a good shape, but now look at the ethnic breakdown. Yeah, it's an R15. Is that better? And then I'll ask people what is better, a deep red, a deep blue, or a purple? And most people will say purple. And my answer to that is, I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know what the better answer is because, well, there's. There's incentives that occur in deep red and deep blue. But if it's purple, if it's a 51 and 49, well, that automatically means every single time, 49% of the voters are disenfranchised by the representative. So is that better? I actually don't know the answer to this, but I think. I wish people would think about it. Yeah, it's a good think about it.

[B]

I remember your first district too, when you ran it. That was the first race way back when.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

Yeah, literally ran it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what I've tried to do in this is tell stories that. Where the pages move, that they're interesting. Thanks for sharing with me about your upbringing and the amazing hero and your mother.

[A]

Forget about my story. I'm actually curious about the other things you learn from other members because if you listen to my podcast, people kind of know my story and why I'm so amazing and courageous already. So the. In good looking people say that. I don't know people. A lot of people say I'm really. I just, I don't. I mean, I'm fine, but many have written it. I'm curious, like, what, what really stood out to you as moments encourage is like some of these people, like, you know, Fitzpatrick and Don Bacon, I get. I. I know them pretty well. So like, I, I kind of know you. What you probably.

[B]

And also, you know, more like the, the districts are more purple districts. But listen, these are folks that have, you know, taken some unpopular positions points in time and feel the arrows coming, coming at them for sure from.

[A]

Yeah. And your first election is a primary, so it's freaking hard is because they have a shitty primary every time followed by a really shitty general. Yeah, I know there I was curious, like, especially some of these Democrats, like

[B]

two guys like Golden And Molten, for

[A]

example, you know, Golden Knight, definitely. Yeah. He actually, he actually talks the top walks the talk.

[B]

He does.

[A]

Yeah, He'll. He'll. He. He's one of the. He's the only guy who co sponsored my AUMF against the cartels.

[B]

Is that right? He was, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, he's taken a lot of like, A lot of.

[A]

A lot of like, wanted to, like, I work really well, Luke Correa, Vicente Gonzalez on the cartel issue. But like, he just put his name on it.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, he was a Marine infantryman. It's, you know, corporal, Afghanistan and Iraq veteran. And he's taken some tough positions, both against his own party. But then also, you know, I tell the story about the Lewiston shooting, which is like three minutes away from his house. It was a bowling alley and he was. The shooter was on the run. His daughter was pretty young at the time, and nobody knew where you know, where the, where the, where the shooter was. And at the time, Maine had yellow flag laws, and the shooter was a Army National Guardsman who.

[A]

What is a yellow flag law?

[B]

Yellow flag fired higher. Higher, basically requirements in order to confiscate somebody's weapons. So they had to be like, not only admitted for mental health care, you had to like, document this all out. And essentially it created too much bureaucracy for this guy who had a long history of issues, you know. Issues. Yeah. And so Maine has since shifted to red flag laws. But. But that, that episode changed Jared's position on this. And he. And he basically just made of the

[A]

disinformation came in against me that I voted for and supported.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah, I remember that. And there was like, Jesus, I've been debugging that for like seven years.

[B]

Yeah. And.

[A]

But.

[B]

And you can't do anything about it because it's somebody that's unaccountable, that's money in a race.

[A]

It's one guy funding a super pac. And, you know, people have forgotten about this. And I'm like, guys, how can two things be true once I have an A plus rating for the NRA and their endorsement? And yet somehow I'm like, trying to take your guns. Like, are you out of your mind? Anyway, yeah, well, let's move forward with the main. Let's talk about golden.

[B]

Anyway, so he takes. He takes a position. He made. He made his decision on a drive back and said, listen, I, I was wrong. Here's this. Is this how I view this now? And wrong about what?

[A]

He.

[B]

He had been calling for a. He was. He Was supportive of. He was more weapons.

[A]

He was more pro God.

[B]

Yes, he pro gun. And he shifted on the assault weapons piece in particular.

[A]

Oh, assault weapons. Yeah. Well, Jared, I don't like that. Like, whatever, you know, it's like we can disagree. That's right. This is why I said, like, division is okay. Me and Jared golden can disagree on things, but you can still. But that's like, the point of democracy is this, like, weird idea in America where it's like, we're so divided. I'm like, why can't you guys just do what makes sense? I'm like, what do you think makes sense? Why don't you. Why don't you get six of your best friends together at a dinner party? I'll give you a list of complicated topics, and then you find me some solutions and just do what makes sense. Sense.

[B]

And now people are getting hit on it just for having that relationship.

[A]

Yeah. Well, where have you seen. You know, I mean, I kind of give you an example of how that's happened to me, but that wasn't. It certainly didn't happen at the time I posted that. It's like nobody cared. How often do you see that. That those relationships Pretty.

[B]

Pretty significant in the primary races.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and not all those primary candidates have any shot necessarily.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but they, but they'll just bring up the fact that, oh, you know, such and such is in the same room with. They'll just do. You know, I mean, especially on the polar. The. The larger figures.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like your, like your aoc. As. As you mentioned.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, because it's like, literally, this is one of the. That was one of those things. Never heard about it before. Never. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, it's a mailer in my. In my. A primary. Like, what? Yeah. And I just. Again, it's like, okay, you're going to use all the tactics you can to win. I guess that's politics. But, man, we talk about courage. Like, dude, courage is your research, people. Like, I mean. Yeah, that's what blows me away. I'm like, I. I'd be. I'd be happy to lose on. On. On a principled subject. Like, look, Dan, I hated that you voted for this, and I did vote for it. You know, you know, you support Ukraine. It's like, yeah, I do. Okay. But you know what never came up in my. In my primary? Ukraine. Yeah. You know what never came up? A lot of people think it was all about the 2020 election. You know, it never came up that election. Yeah. And I'm like, guys, and people always, especially kind of your more liberal media, they're like, they're trying to be nice to me. They're like, well, he told the truth about the election and I got it. Got him where he is. It's like, guys, I've had two elections since then.

[B]

Yeah, it was actually.

[A]

This was, this was just. This was literally just a smear campaign from a bunch of trolls. And this. And we need to do some introspection on why Americans believe this stuff. When you can do five minutes of Googling or just ask Grok and you will get to the truth pretty quickly, but it's death by a thousand cuts.

[B]

I also, I appreciate how you, you know, held. Held your position on issues that sometimes were tougher to hold your position on. Maybe Ukraine. Maybe you felt that way about Ukraine or not. But you. You held the line with it. I remember being at Munich security conference with. Together with. With some Ukrainian war fighters and Seth Moulton, who's also in this thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what it. So what did Seth do? Well, Seth, when the. That right. When that Afghanistan debacle was about to happen, for months beforehand, he said, you know, make a plan. Have a plan, particularly for our sibs and our allies, but like actually have a plan. And they wouldn't take it. They weren't, they weren't listening to him. So he actually went and did a press conference in front of the White House. As a Democrat in the Biden White House, he was pretty unpopular at.

[A]

For, For.

[B]

For doing that. But he was speaking the truth.

[A]

Before or after it happened? Before, yeah. Before it happened. He was still trying to like. Yeah, because you mean anybody with a brain. This is why I said just, you know, I, you know, my only disagreement with Seth on this would be, hey, there is no good plan. Because if you're go. If the policy objective is zero troops, there's no good plan. Eventually you have to have one last plane leaving. There is no good plan. The only good plan is to maintain some presence. I'm sorry, but that's the only good plan. And that's like, I mean, look, President Trump had talked about leaving the same advisors who advise Biden talks Trump out of it. He never did it. Biden went for it against every. We all knew this was going to happen. It was you. You know what's crazy about the I remind people is you're almost lucky that it. That it happened so fast because imagine if the Taliban had taken longer to run through the city and take it over. You would have Gotten no one out. So it's actually better that it failed so fast. I mean, that's the crazy part about that whole situation. But anyway, I know.

[B]

I mean, I didn't.

[A]

I just realized he did, like, a thing in front of the white. Yeah. Make a plan. No, Make a plan. Jesus.

[B]

He did the presser. And, you know, all along he was saying, listen, let's take care of the. The guys that were side by side with us. You know, your. Your interpreter, Rockman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Died while you were. When you were hit. And we all know these guys were in dangerous positions, particularly those that were with us.

[A]

And I was getting hit on that in my primary.

[B]

You getting hit on that. Also. Also a set of lies. Because they were suggesting that you had.

[A]

Oh, I was responsible for the National Guards.

[B]

National Guard.

[A]

They were just so under the belt, like you would think voters would be, like, you know what? That's a little too much. Screw you. But they didn't. They just ate it right up. Yeah. You know. Oh, well. Yeah. Not my problem.

[B]

And I mean. And there were, you know, folks were trying to spread the truth, but. But again, it becomes a matter of who's got. Who's got the louder microphone.

[A]

Yeah. And it's in. Again, I have such a unique case in Congress. Like, it's, It's. It's hard to extract lessons from that. Yeah. But it was just. There's just so many. Because my name is Clickbait, and there's so many ways to get that Clickbait. It's like we. It just. There's. It becomes an endless number of accusations that are all based in complete lies. But somebody hearing so many is like, oh, God, something must be true. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something must be true. And it's like, hey, guys, like, meanwhile, there are real scandals. There are. There's a bipartisan effort in the last few months to. To completely destroy the institution's reputation, if you haven't noticed, with, like, scandal after scandal after scandal. You know, I'm like, guys, I'm not the one on a yacht with videos with a bunch of prostitutes. That's not me. You know, I didn't have. I didn't have an affair with my staffer. That's not me. I didn't. Corey Mills. Yeah. The police called on him because he was beating up his mistress in his $25,000 penthouse that he hadn't paid rent on in three months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Among many other things.

[B]

And. And listen, those are huge problems. Right?

[A]

And.

[B]

But the one. The folks that are still governance minded and there are in this building, you know, they don't, they don't have the microphones and so people don't hear about them, but they're kind of quietly still trying to do the work.

[A]

What's your most. What's. What was your favorite story of courage? So you got Mike, Sherry, Mikey, Cheryl. I came in with her. Mikey Cheryl. Yeah, yeah. Senator Todd Young.

[B]

Well, Mikey's was kind of so, so I did not know this, but when she was 19, as a midshipman in the Naval Academy, she had her summer cruise and one of her midshipmen hit her head. I was. They were in storm stormy waters. There was a hurricane that had just come through and Mikey knew new new cpr. So she goes up and like actually keeps her alive for about a hour and a half and then a helicopter comes in, takes her out.

[A]

But, but like showed hard hit to that ahead.

[B]

That's a hard hit to the head. Yeah. And at 19 and, and you just, just kept her head down. But you know, when she was in elected with, with you, she stuck to her gun. She said she wasn't going to vote for Pelosi as speaker. And you know, she actually, you know, held on to that and a number of other like moments for her where she's just some background deals there.

[A]

But yeah, she's good. What about. I guess I don't know a lot about that. Like Senator Young from.

[B]

Yeah. From Indiana. You know, one of the things that I thought was so impressive with, with him is that he kept his heads down and, and helped shape the, the CHIPS act and got it. Got it done. And that was with Not Without Risk because the counterpart on the other side was Chuck Schumer. So you can imagine the, you know, attack ads that write themselves.

[A]

Yeah. But that one was split. I remember the CHIPS act like I, I personally wasn't a fan, but it wasn't some. You know, one of the things I've always said too is like, just because you're not a fan of something or there's something in a bill you don't like, okay, just vote your conscience, vote against it. But you don't go trashing everyone who did. Right. I mean, especially with these like, difficult ones where there's the ndaa. This is what I always hated about certain members who are my friends. But I'm like, can you just shut up when you vote that way? You know, because I know that you can always find something you don't like in a piece of legislation. And if you can't find it, I know you can find Something you do, like, that's not in the piece of legislation. I know, I know you can do that. Yeah. But for God's sakes, just like, don't trash all your colleagues who are trying to govern. Yeah, okay. And because, like, I view it as. Also, a lot of people don't put a lot. This is another problem in politics. A lot of members don't view their vote as important. Right. They. They view it as a, As a. As a kind of a signal, a virtue signal. And I like to look at a vote as if this was the decision, as if I made this vote, this would be law. Do I. Do I perfectly adhere to that every time? I'm not so sure I do, but that's mostly what I adhere to, especially on important things. And so I really hate it when people are like, well, this happened a lot with things like Ukraine aid or, or fisa. People are like, I mean, if it's gonna fail, I'll change my votes. But, you know, I just want to take the easy route and be popular online as opposed to vote no. Right.

[B]

Fans.

[A]

Yeah. Vote no and hope yes or the opposite. I find that to be the most disgusting attribute of most members. And it's a lot of them. And I've always categorized. Like, there's like, there's like your. The thing about, like, your maybe your Freedom Caucus types is like, at least they're predictable. And there's an honesty there. Like, like, there's, there's a. There's a philosophy that you can kind of work with. And then there's maybe 100 or so members that are like, true governing Republicans. And you really get to know who those are. They're usually in, like, the Main Street Caucus. And you get to know who those are because they're the ones when. When we're in the majority. But there's a. But, but the Senate is run by Chuck Schumer, and President Biden is in charge. Dude, you got to govern. And so it's these who are carrying the water while. And then you got your Freedom Caucus. They're going to do what they do. At least they're predictable. But then I call the other category just the cowards. The cowards who just like to hope yes, vote no every single time because they want to.

[B]

That's that they're. That's grown in numbers since your time.

[A]

Hard to say. Hard to say. I don'. Scientific, like, view of it. It's just feels to me like I want to say, you know, 50% governing and then 25, 25 of. Of. Of, you know, hardcore types. Ver. And then 25, maybe like 20, 30 hardcore, 20 cowards, 30. I don't know.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

But the point is, is those are the categories. Yeah. And that's. There's a lot of subcategories beneath those. But it's really. It's really disheartening to. To hear members literally say that behind closed doors. They're like, oh, yeah. I mean, I think it should definitely pass, but I'm not voting for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, why are you here? Why are you here? Yeah. Just to get reelected for this crappy job.

[B]

They've sort of lost sense of the service element to it.

[A]

And it's.

[B]

And also a slow corrosion of the soul or maybe fast in some cases

[A]

if they had one. And. And you know, and. And like the only like, plausible argument I can think of because I could be guilty of this is. Is like, look, this is not the hill to die on for me. I want to do better things. So that's a plausible, logical explanation. Sometimes that's. But that's not good enough for like, I. I've seen people just do this so constantly that. I'm sorry, but that's just not your. That's not your explanation because you have no desire to go on and do better things. You just want to get reelected for the next thing. Just like. I don't know. I don't know what you like about this lifestyle. It's absolutely horrible.

[B]

Well, it's a hardship post. You can still get some things done for issues you care about.

[A]

It's hard.

[B]

You've been working on.

[A]

It takes a long time. And the other thing people don't understand about the job, it takes a long time. So just like.

[B]

And it's easier to. It's. The cliche is true. It is easier to tear something down than to build it up. You know, it just. It's hard. It's. Especially in this environment where you're polarized. You got to work with the other side. You might get hit for working on. With the other side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's where guy. Where, you know, young with. With chips. He just kept his heads down.

[A]

What about Mark Kelly? Sorry, you want to keep. I keep going off on tangents, but

[B]

like, yeah, first of all, fascinating life story, right.

[A]

It comes up astronaut, astronaut.

[B]

And then his. His mother was a cop. One of the first cops in the West Orange Police Department. They called the cops. Used to refer to his mom and dad as balls and no balls. And. And what I learned in this though was that like they taught his mother, taught him a lot about courage. But they also were raised in a pretty difficult environment. There was abuse between his father and mother. But so obviously with Mark Kelly, he was a combat aviator in the first Gulf War, got to meet his wingmate, Paul Fujimura, and they were in that first wave of air assaults and then became one of the first astronauts. Flew with his brother, one of the identical twin, Scott Kelly. Pretty funny their, their relationship together. But when they got into Congress, I think he's also a guy that says, hey, listen, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, vote my conscience on, on, on things. So he's taken some positions that have been less popular with his party, such as on immigration and border control.

[A]

And in some cases he's representing Arizona. You know, a lot of these cases come from the district themselves. That's. The people elect that kind of person generally, right? Yep, yep.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, this is a body and like most human nature follows incentives. And the incentives can be pretty perverse. But we've.

[A]

They're created by the people. Yes. And this is the hate thing that people don't like being reminded of, but I will be happy to remind them of it. Like the entire, not just Congress, but the whole city operates off incentives. What about Westmore? Because this is like the one you have in here. That's not.

[B]

Yes, Wes. Wes is a. On the gubernatorial. I got to know him because.

[A]

Governor of Maryland. Yep.

[B]

He's on our advisory board way back when. And also pretty remarkable upbringing. Served in the 82nd Airborne in Afghanistan and then did this sort of long shot run. He ran against the chair of the Democratic National Committee. So most people wrote him off. He was a first time candidate. He was also told by his campaign advisors, don't campaign on what? On the issue you believe most about, which was around childhood poverty. He grew up as a, you know, a single, single mother who's a remarkable person. But he said, hey, listen, I'm gonna, I might not. That might not be the, that might be the right advice.

[A]

Why that was the advice. Because that's really, that's, that's really not a bad thing to campaign off.

[B]

Well, their advice was they don't have enough constituent. They don't have. It's not a, it's not an issue that has enough, you know, voters behind it, essentially. And, and so this is why, you

[A]

know, listen to consultants well, and they give a lot of bad advice.

[B]

And he did not listen to the consultant and said, you know, hey, Listen, I've got. I've got my own rudder here. The political courage moment. There are two that I. That I write about in the book. One is that he set up a government efficiency effort right. Right around the same time that Musk was doing his efficiency. And then, you know, there were all sorts of optical coincidence, like he had

[A]

planned to do it maybe, but. But just kind of coincidence.

[B]

Yeah. And then he holds the line. Yeah. Holds the line on it. And then. And then he also voted against a reparation study. He vetoed it, actually. And that, you know, took some. Some pretty heavy heat.

[A]

Maryland is so blue, and Larry Hogan was, like, keeping it stable. I love Larry Hogan.

[B]

That's another very bipartisan, you know, individual,

[A]

you know, and talking to him and definitely another example of. Of courage and. Yeah. The ability to win in that state. Then, you know, you know, he's fighting his own party. He's like. He's like, you know, my party hates me just because I'm like, oh, dude, I'm, like, playing goalie here. I'm just trying to, like, block is the. Enough of the crazy. And keep the trains running on time. And that's why people like me, because I keep the trains running on time.

[B]

Yeah. Basically, you know, basic issues that affect real people.

[A]

Yeah. Being a governor or mayor, you get to do that.

[B]

You get to do stuff. His father also was remarkable. He was one of the members. GOP members, to vote against Nixon. Also a moment of courage back in the. Back in the day. So Larry Hogan. Larry Hogan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Larry Hogan.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a way to win in Maryland. Republicans don't like it. You know, it's like they. We want to. This is a Republican problem, and it's probably a Democrat problem, too. It's like, we just. Let's find the person who can actually win the race and then destroy them. Yeah, Like. Like, let's find the people who are really good at making arguments against the other side. And then tar and feather. That's then like. Yeah. Present company included in this.

[B]

Well, and then in the case with. With Maryland, the candidate that came through. I forget what his name was, but the Republican candidate that came through was so kind of out there that Hogan. Hogan even said, I'm not gonna vote for it.

[A]

It was just nuts. Yeah. I don't remember much about it, but I remember it's like, not even being at an option right away. And, like, what is happening here, guys? Like, what that gets to. The. My other, like, civics lesson is there's no such thing. As a. As an establishment, it does not exist. If there was, and I can disprove it to anyone right now, I'm like, look, there's two candidates running in a primary. One's Rye, one's Dan. Ry says he's anti establishment. He's going to fight the establishment. Dan says, well, no, I'm going to, you know, be normal and work and I don't know, I'll work with, like, whatever. Who wins, you win on both sides.

[B]

Both sides.

[A]

Both sides. Yeah. Yeah. Thereby negating the existence of a establishment.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, that's just a simple thought experiment, so I can just prove it to you. But now I will say there is a new establishment, and it's the establishment of this, like, influencer, podcaster media landscape, which is just, like, kind of operates in this sort of hive mind.

[B]

But do you think we can do anything about it? I mean, it's a tough problem, right,

[A]

because it's got people. Got it. Like, on the right, at least the war is happening. People are calling out the podcast. Griff, like, Shawn Ryan keeps getting called out. He keeps, you know, he's like, full. At least people. People are seeing what I've been seeing for a while. Tucker's getting called out. So it's at least happening on the right. I. I think it needs to happen on the left. I mean, we kind of talked about it on the. When I was on Bill Mar. It's like, Donna Brazil and. And John Federman were there, you know, I mean, Bill will tell me. He's like, I can't.

[B]

I have.

[A]

I. When I invite Republican politicians on, they always say, yes, I can't get Democrats on. Not wild. So, like, they won't have the Civil War. So the only people fighting it on the left are people like Mar and Fetterman and. And Donna Brazil to an extent, you know, depending on the issue. Like, she's not afraid to speak her mind. She's hilarious to be around, by the way. She was a lot of fun. I mean, that was. It's. That's how politics should be. You know, this is honest disagreements and. And go from there, and you're not. And you might not find a solution. Okay, well, then you got to convince the public to vote you into a majority so you can win. Yep. And that's okay. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. That is. Find me a better system. There's not one.

[B]

Would you have done anything differently yourself as a. As a member, looking back now or not.

[A]

Big things. I mean, you know, there's like, I Shouldn't have tweeted back at that idiot. Right? Because that caused me a week or two of, you know, just added to the fire.

[B]

But, yeah, y.

[A]

But also, screw them. Why? Why? I'm a. I was a SEAL longer than I was a congressman. You think I'm not going to fight back for my reputation? You think I'm going to just let you just, like, just slander me saying that? I. Like, in this one case, it's like, oh. Breaking news. Dan Crenshaw spearheaded the effort to raise congressional pay by 40%. And I was like. I was just. You know, I. Like, somebody showed me that, and I was like. Like, I nailed that guy. I was just like. Like, you know, and of course, that causes more fire. So is there somewhere I've, like, was that a bad decision? Maybe. But I wouldn't call it regret. Like, it regrets a strong word. And so I want to.

[B]

I mean, allocation of your time.

[A]

I want to save the word regret for some big, meaningful things, and I'm not sure I have big ones.

[B]

Great point.

[A]

Because, you know, my. My goal has always been to try to get some things done that are important, prioritize and. And be able to look my daughter in the eye, be like. Like, we always did the right thing. There's something to be proud of here. And we got a lot of things done, actually. So I always fought back for. Because it's not just my reputation, by the way. It's my family's reputation. And I told my constituents it's your reputation, because constituents would be like, why are you always getting into fights? And I'm like, first of all, I'm not. I'm defending. Defending myself is not getting into a fight. But I'm sorry you perceived it that way, but it's not what's happened here, you know, and it's just. It's. Again, I'm a very unique case. That can't be. It's hard to replicate or even draw lessons from my case, because it's so unique. It's just like after I was on Saturday Night Live, I'm. The guy wears an eye patch. Navy. So you just. You are clickbait. You are clickbait. It just is what it is. Has been that way for a long time.

[B]

And. And you had a platform. Most people don't get that platform, so you might as well use it.

[A]

Yeah, no, of course I use it. And. But I also use it to defend myself and whatever. Like, but you can only defend yourself against so much and. And, you know, whatever. If you want to Believe it. That's. That's on you. That's. You're like, I don't. I'm not going to reap the consequences of that. My district is unfortunately, you know, I'm just going to move on. So it's, it's again, I was mad for a day and I was much more relaxed. You know, I don't regret doing the job. Don't get me wrong.

[B]

But do you see more young America? I mean, because you were, you were involved with recruiting young Americans to, to run for many years. I don't know. Maybe you still are. Where do you see the let. Because we've. We've continued to see a surge of veterans, particularly from around our generation.

[A]

This question. Yeah. And this is my last question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Run to intel and do my. Do my.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I'm a little more cynical on this, like, because when I look across the spectrum of Congress and who's veterans and who's not, I. It's a toss up for me whether it's a good member or a bad member, and we both know that. Yeah.

[B]

And we only support about half of them.

[A]

It's no longer my factor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and looking. And really, I don't support anybody anymore because it's just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy. It's just like, it's not worth it. Endorsements don't matter all that much. And it's like we're just making enemies. So I learned that a long time ago. Just not, not to get in. But also, like, I don't, I don't necessarily care if you're a veteran. I care if you've read books on policy and you want to. You came here to do something. That's what I actually care about. That's it. You know, and, and so, and, and

[B]

have a serious mindset.

[A]

Yeah. Service mindset. You know, then you can have all that without being a veteran. Right. Yeah. I just want you to be grounded and, and have critical thinking skills, color within the lines. Have read books and even just some books, for God's sakes. You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It can be audiobooks and just. Yeah. And. And, and have a thirst for truth. Yeah. You know, and, and like, that's not asking a whole lot, but, man, the voters don't like that either. So, like, that's, again, goes back to like, what are voters hoping for these days? And they want someone who will tell them what they want to hear, which is often a bunch of crap. Like, I'm like, guys, like, it's so easy to tell you what you want to hear here, I can recite it. I know the slogans. I know the things you want to hear. I know you want to hear that Social Security trust fund is depleted because the government stole from it. I know you want to hear that, but it's not true. I know you want to hear that.

[B]

The. It's like, it's like a good friend. Like, they'll tell you when you're wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's why I always say I'm like, tell the American. Maybe we'll end with this quote. Yes. I've always said you, you should treat the American people like you actually love them. And not like. Not like you just want them to like you. You know, your. Your eccentric aunt just wants. Just wants her niece and nephew to like her. She showers them with gifts. She tells them nothing's their fault, there's no consequences for the action. But the parents who truly love their children don't do any of that. They tell them there's consequences for the action. They make them work for something. They, they. They inflict punishment when necessary. Right. They. They. They put the right incentives in place. And by the way, this is true. If parents liberal, conservative, like, do parenting. Funny how it's the same. So I go to liberals, and I'm like, would you raise your kids this way, the way you want to raise the American people? No. You're trying to be the favorite aunt. That's what you're trying to be. And that's.

[B]

Don't do that.

[A]

So that's my argument against left. But again, these are healthy arguments. It's the same.

[B]

It's same in the military, too. I mean, I had this great platoon sergeant, and one of his opening lines to the platoon was, hey, I'm not here to be your friend friend. Like, I'm your platoon sergeant.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

I'm a Marine core there. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. But we look for that, that service mindset and frankly. Yeah. People that are intellectually honest, hopefully curious. Not every veteran's part of the solution, but they're still a good group.

[A]

Yes. It's a good place to start. Like, if I know nothing about two people, okay. I'll still choose a veteran because I'll hope for the best. But, you know, I've become cynical about it over the years because I'm just like, Some of the people I hate the most are veterans. Yeah. On my side or their side? Like, it's just so. It's. That's.

[B]

That summit becomes very partisan.

[A]

Yeah. And so your guys's job is to. Yeah. You sift through that. And I think you do a good job sifting through it because I know. I know you look for those other factors, and I think people should keep supporting it. And actually, your book, you don't even make money from this book.

[B]

That's right. All proceeds go to with honor and helping to elect more vets and service. Good folks, good bets. You got it.

[A]

You got it. The ones who have read books and Colorado lines.

[B]

Maureen for math. Right. Good to see you.

[A]

Yeah. Great to see you, man.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Oz, on the book.