Podcast Summary: Hold These Truths with Dan Crenshaw

Episode: "The Real Conclave: Power, Politics, and the Papal Vote"
Guest: Dr. Joseph Capizzi, Dean of Theology and Religious Studies, Catholic University of America
Date: May 6, 2025

Overview

In this timely and insightful episode, Dan Crenshaw sits down with Dr. Joseph Capizzi to explore the death of Pope Francis and the mysteries, traditions, and political dynamics surrounding the ensuing papal conclave. Together, they break down what happens when a Pope dies, what really goes on in the Sistine Chapel, how a new Pope is chosen, the evolution of papal politics, and enduring misconceptions about the Catholic Church. Sprinkled throughout are memorable moments, candid humor, and reflections on the larger purpose and challenges of tradition in modern faith.

The Role of the Pope & Papal Tradition

[02:15 – 05:10]

• Dr. Capizzi explains the scriptural and historical basis for having a Pope, tracing it to how Christ distinguished Peter among the apostles.
• “He’s the rock on which the church will be built. He has the keys. Sort of like the juridical power that Christ is handing over to Peter.” – Dr. Capizzi [02:15]
• The Pope is considered "first among equals"; his role is both spiritual and a governing authority.
• The Vatican is a political entity, not only a spiritual one, with its own set of laws and jurisdiction.
• The Pope also serves as a symbol of unity: “Sometimes people get drawn into the Catholic Church because of the Pope as a symbol of unity.” – Dr. Capizzi [04:50]

The Politics of the Papacy

[06:01 – 08:42]

• Historically, popes held immense political power, once capable of making emperors seek penance “walking through the snows on their knees.”
• Since the French Revolution and into the 20th century, popes shifted to being global moral leaders rather than wielders of direct political power.
• Modern popes impact the world through "moral exhortation," exemplified by John Paul II’s stand against Communism and Francis’s advocacy for marginalized groups.

Understanding Pope Francis’s Legacy

[08:03 – 13:43]

• Francis, often labeled "liberal," still came from a conservative institution: “[The church] is designed to conserve the tradition.” – Dr. Capizzi [08:44]
• His focus was pastoral; he prioritized direct human connection over doctrinal debates.
• “Let's stop navel gazing about doctrine… we’re obsessing about it and we’re starting to lose contact with people who ought to first just be encountering Christ.” – Dr. Capizzi [10:06]
• Francis lived simply—opting for humble attire, non-traditional spaces, and symbolic actions such as foot washing.
• He was distinctive from the start, even taking the unprecedented step of choosing the name Francis, modeling himself after St. Francis of Assisi.
• The choice of papal names is personal; there’s no hard rule but a tradition of choosing a saint’s name for inspiration.

The Changing Face and Global Expansion of Catholicism

[15:25 – 18:16]

• The growth of Catholicism is now most vibrant in Africa and parts of Asia, with Europe and to a lesser extent Latin America showing secular trends.
• Factors driving growth: strong education networks (Catholic high schools), a sense of clear tradition, and the Church's ability to provide purpose, especially for young men.
• “The Church gives you an answer… God created you out of love, and he's given you a purpose. Your purpose is to love other people.” – Dr. Capizzi [18:16]

The Tension between Hierarchy and Service

[19:20 – 22:49]

• Crenshaw and Capizzi discuss the paradox of papal authority versus the Christian message of equality.
• “The Pope is supposed to be almost like the most debased of all of us… He’s the servant of the servants.” – Dr. Capizzi [20:22]
• Pope Francis explicitly criticized "clericalism" and sought to re-orient the Church towards service, not privilege.

Step-by-Step: What Happens When a Pope Dies – The Conclave

[22:52 – 35:40]

• The Camerlengo (chief of staff for the Pope) confirms the death and starts the funeral and mourning protocols.
• Nine days of mourning (Novemdiales) are observed.
• Cardinals (under age 80, currently 133 eligible) convene for “general congregations,” staying in accommodations together, becoming acquainted, and engaging in informal politicking before the conclave itself.
  • “Guys will get together and talk about stuff… there’s a lot of that kind of conversation happening.” – Dr. Capizzi [27:43]
• The actual conclave (“locked with key”) takes place in the Sistine Chapel; secrecy rivals jury sequestration, with measures to prevent leaks or external influence.
  • “They are not supposed to have contact with anybody other than the people who serve them while they’re there.” – Dr. Capizzi [34:12]
  • Breaches are gravely punished; “They can be excommunicated… separation from the Church.” – Dr. Capizzi [35:20]
• Only cardinals under 80 can vote. The age cutoff is a pragmatic, not doctrinal, decision.
• Voting: By secret written ballot, up to three times per day, requiring a 2/3 majority. Ballots are burned after each round: white smoke signals a new pope, black smoke signals no decision.
  • “The white smoke indicates we have a pope.” – Dr. Capizzi [38:25]

Influences and Predictions for the Next Papacy

[35:44 – 41:52]

• The composition of the College of Cardinals is more global, largely due to Francis’s appointments—including many from Africa, Asia, and the Americas.
• This increased diversity means the next Pope is less likely to be European, and could be a “wild card” if consensus is elusive.
• Notable potential contenders: Cardinal Tagle (Philippines), Cardinal Parolin (Italy), American cardinals like Prevost and Tobin.
• Papal elections are not as mysterious as presumed; demographics (especially age) and institutional needs narrow the field.

Pop Culture, Conspiracies, and the Church

[42:33 – 46:53]

• Crenshaw and Capizzi address pop culture’s fascination with Vatican secrecy (“Conclave,” “Angels and Demons”), debunking much of the mythology as “nonsense” or pure fiction.
• “There are just certain features that make it seem exotic…The way the men dress…Latin is spoken…It’s not mysterious and secret. It’s a language.” – Dr. Capizzi [43:49]
• On conspiracies: “If we have some centuries-old conspiracy… who are these people who are so good at keeping secrets? Because everybody I know tells everything to everybody else.” – Dr. Capizzi [46:16]
• On the Illuminati? “Not that I’m aware of.” [45:25, humor]

Bonus: The Problem of Slavery and Change in Church Doctrine

[47:02 – 55:11]

• Dr. Capizzi discusses his dissertation on the Church’s evolving views on slavery, emphasizing that moral progress is often gradual.
• “For much of human history, people didn’t think things change like this…The abolition of slavery happens very quickly in the West, and it happens very late.” – Dr. Capizzi [47:32]
• The argument that scripture “condoned” slavery is nuanced: it reflected its age, but underlying Christian moral principles eventuated in abolitionist movements.
• “Your purpose is to love other people.... you didn’t earn it—it’s love you didn’t earn.” – Dr. Capizzi [18:16]
• Crenshaw relates foundational American and Christian values as ultimately “liberating principles” that take time to bear full fruition: “We laid out our principles very firmly from the beginning.” – Dan Crenshaw [55:12]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Francis] wanted to be critical of [clericalism] and wanted the church to recognize her primary mission is one of service...strip that away as much as possible.” – Dr. Capizzi [21:00]
• “If a cardinal leaks, he can be excommunicated… that is separation from the Church.” – Dr. Capizzi [35:20]
• “We believe the Holy Spirit is animating this, but the Holy Spirit operates through human instruments.” – Dr. Capizzi [29:32]
• “Maybe after this podcast, you know, they'll feel the influence. Maybe they'll think about it.” - Dan Crenshaw on papal name traditions [12:43]
• “The Church gives you an answer…Your purpose is to love other people.” – Dr. Capizzi [18:16]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:15] - Scriptural origins of the papacy
• [06:01] - Political history of the Vatican and modern papal influence
• [08:24] - Pope Francis: Tradition vs Change
• [13:43] - How Francis was chosen and the global shift in the College of Cardinals
• [18:16] - The appeal of Catholicism and young men finding purpose
• [22:52] - Death of a Pope and the logistics of the Conclave
• [26:09] - Life inside Vatican City during the Conclave
• [29:32] - Human nature and politicking in the selection process
• [35:20] - Enforcement of secrecy during the Conclave
• [38:25] - Papal signals: Black and white smoke
• [42:33] - Pop culture depictions and conspiracy myths
• [47:02] - The church’s doctrinal evolution on slavery
• [55:12] - Foundational American and Christian values

Tone & Takeaways

Throughout, the discussion is candid, accessible, and laced with humor, as both guests demystify the process while respecting its history and gravity. Dr. Capizzi’s scholarly insight clarifies what is myth, what is meaningful, and what simply makes for good storytelling. For listeners, the episode delivers an education on both church tradition and human nature—reminding us that even the most ancient of rituals are carried out by imperfect, well-intentioned people seeking to balance tradition, service, and relevance in a changing world.

End of Summary