Apricot Girl Summer

Summary

Home Cooking — "Apricot Girl Summer"

Released: August 29, 2025 | Hosts: Samin Nosrat & Hrishikesh Hirway

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Home Cooking, Samin and Rishi welcome listeners back for a new season under the summer sun, diving into the joyful chaos of seasonal fruit, homemade jam, and family recipes. The show explores everything from creative uses for rhubarb, the art and science of canning, and troubleshooting peach jam, to the meaning and memory embedded in food. The hosts also tackle iron-rich meals, the role of copper in cooking, and help a listener rediscover a beloved family dish through the "Chef Detective" segment with a special guest. As always, the episode is filled with playful banter, food wisdom, and a few poignant moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comfort Food and Pandemic Eating (00:46–02:38)

• Samin describes craving "kindergartner lunchbox" foods as a comfort during stressful times: PB&J on white bread, string cheese, and a "cacophony" of C-ingredient salads (cucumber, corn, cabbage, cherry tomatoes, cilantro).

• Humorous recounting of Rishi’s pantry—devoid of snacks, full of dry beans and whole ingredients, prompting Samin's “teenage nightmare” snack quest.

  Notable quote:

  • "I only want to eat foods that are appropriate in a kindergartner's lunchbox." — Samin (01:46)

2. Memory Lane: Boiled Peanuts in Georgia (03:46–06:34)

• Rishi shares a touching story about searching for boiled peanuts in Georgia during a family road trip, reconnecting with his mother's traditions after outgrowing his peanut allergy.

• Samin explains the difference between boiled peanuts and roasted ones, emphasizing the creamy, "al dente but creamy" texture reminiscent of edamame.

  Notable quote:

  • "They’ve absorbed all that seasoned water...almost al dente but creamy." — Rishi (06:17)

3. Rhubarb 101 & Creative Uses (09:44–14:23)

• Listener Q&A: Rhubarb questions from Melissa & Alon in Portland.

  • Samin describes the characteristics and regional differences of rhubarb: color, tartness, and why leaves are poisonous.
  • Non-dessert uses: Roast with oil and salt for a tangy addition to veggie dishes, or try Persian-style rhubarb stew (sans meat)—suggested vegetarian adaptation by Naz Deravian with chickpeas and herbs.

• Samin explains that rhubarb’s sourness is truly unique, making it hard to find savory comparisons.

  Notable quote:

  • "Persians love sour things...that’s maybe one of my favorite non-dessert ways to enjoy rhubarb." — Samin (14:12)

4. The Science of Jam-Making & Canning (14:23–19:29)

• On sugar’s multiple roles (sweetener, preservative, texture). Low-sugar jams mold quickly and aren't shelf stable; 25% sugar by weight is Samin’s “minimum viable” guideline for safety and texture.

• Pectin, acid, sugar, and cooking time all balance to ensure proper jam set and safety.

  Notable quote:

  • “A lot of people love their low sugar recipes...by the time I've opened it, it's moldy.” — Samin (15:42)

5. Troubleshooting Gummy Peach Jam & Making the Most of Preserves (19:41–26:13)

• Samin helps Katrina in Vermont repurpose peach "not-jam" (gummy peaches in syrup):

  • Use syrup for spritzers, Bellinis, or summer drinks.
  • Mash and recook peaches for cake or use as a filling for Hungarian shortbread (Dorie Greenspan’s recipe) or Italian jam crostata.

• Rishi recalls Rebecca Solnit’s quote on preserves as "a capsule in which time stands still" (24:07).

• Samin reflects on the emotional resonance of making and eating preserves, connecting to memories like making apricot jam while her father was in the hospital.

  Notable quote:

  • “For me, it’s a time machine...even when things don’t turn out perfectly, I get to return to a moment in time.” — Samin (24:14)

6. How Long Does Homemade Jam Last? (26:13–27:16)

• Samin admits expiration guidance is conservative and recipes err on the side of caution; at home, she’ll eat preserves well past "use by" dates, as long as they look, smell, and taste fine.

  Memorable moment:

  • Rishi: “I still have [your apricot jam] in there...every six months, I’ll take a tiny edge of a spoonful.”
  • Samin: “I should have eaten it when I was going through your fridge and needed something to eat...” (26:13)

7. Jam Rituals, Apricots, and the Writing of Recipes (28:12–29:39)

• The ritual and unpredictability of apricot jam-making: Samin and Rishi read aloud Samin’s writing from her new book, resulting in playful discomfort and affectionate teasing.
• Apricots symbolizing the fleeting nature of seasons and ritual in Samin's culinary life.

8. The Role of Copper in Jam & Pastry (29:51–33:21)

• Samin explains why copper pots are ideal for jam (superior heat conduction allows quicker processing, preserving fresh fruit flavor).

• Copper bowls: their main practical use is whipping egg whites, due to a chemical reaction that stabilizes proteins.

  Notable quote:

  • “One of my goals as a jam maker is to cook the fruit as little as possible...because copper is such a great heat conductor...” — Samin (30:33)

9. Iron-Rich Food for Vegetarians (39:06–42:27)

• Helping Aryeh in Oakland find iron-rich foods for his pregnant wife:

  • Meat options: chicken livers, beef liver.
  • Non-meat: legumes (especially kidney beans), greens (collards, kale, spinach). Samin suggests Persian stew gormeh sabzi with/without meat and kidney beans, or chili.
  • Vitamin C-rich foods help with absorption (e.g., tomatoes, citrus alongside iron-rich dishes).

  Notable quote:

  • “There are certain foods that help the absorption of minerals...so you want to add citrus into a dish with any of these ingredients.” — Samin (41:55)

10. Turmeric Milk & Ingredient Pairing (42:41–44:16)

• Rishi discusses making golden milk and the importance of combining black pepper with turmeric to increase curcumin absorption.

  Notable quote:

  • “You get 400% better absorption if there’s some black pepper along with the turmeric.” — Rishi (43:39)

11. Chef Detective: Rediscovering Mom’s Braised Beef Noodle Soup (46:19–53:28)

• Listener Angie asks for help reconstructing her late mother’s licorice-flavored braised beef noodle soup from Beijing.

• Samin brings in culinary friend Emily Sue Bowden for expertise.

  • Emily identifies it as "hongshao niurou tang" (red-braised beef noodle soup) and explains probable ingredients: rock sugar caramelization, beef shank, star anise, various spices (cinnamon, clove, cardamom), soy sauce, and Chinese cooking wine.
  • Carrots or daikon may be family additions.
  • Tips on assembly: braise meat, cook noodles separately, then bring together with broth and toppings.

  Notable quotes:

  • “Red-braised...things that are braised with soy sauce are often called red-braised, even though they’re not actually red.” — Emily (48:05)
  • “Every home cook has their own thing...all the moms have their different way or their different spin or twist.” — Emily (52:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I only want to eat foods that are appropriate in a kindergartner's lunchbox.” — Samin (01:46)
• “For me, it’s a time machine...even when things don’t turn out perfectly, I get to return to a moment in time.” — Samin (24:14)
• “Red-braised...things that are braised with soy sauce are often called red-braised, even though they’re not actually red.” — Emily (48:05)
• “The kind of mold that’s going to happen on a jar of jam is not a lethal, scary, toxic kind. So if there is mold, you just scrape it off and throw it away.” — Samin (26:08)
• Samin’s discomfort as Rishi reads her writing aloud provides comic relief and highlights the authentic, teasing dynamic between the hosts. (28:45–29:39)

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Timestamps For Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------|--------------------| | Kindergarten Lunchbox Foods | 00:46 – 02:38 | | Boiled Peanuts in Georgia | 03:46 – 06:34 | | Rhubarb 101 & Uses | 09:44 – 14:23 | | Jam Science/Canning Safety | 14:23 – 19:29 | | Gummy Peach Jam Solutions | 19:41 – 26:13 | | Jam Longevity/Use-By Dates | 26:13 – 27:16 | | Apricot Rituals/Recipe Reading | 28:12 – 29:39 | | Copper Bowls vs Pots | 29:51 – 33:21 | | Iron-Rich Veggie Foods | 39:06 – 42:27 | | Turmeric Milk Absorption | 42:41 – 44:16 | | Chef Detective: Braised Beef Noodle | 46:19 – 53:28 |

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Tone and Style

• Warm, joyful, affectionate, and reliably irreverent.
• Deeply personal and nostalgic, especially when discussing memories and food as a time capsule.
• Playful teasing and wordplay are frequent, especially around recipe reading and puns (“rhubarbaric,” “conserves,” “industrial jams”).
• Practical, accessible cooking advice punctuated by science, storytelling, and cultural context.

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Additional Resources & References

• Persian rhubarb stew: vegetarian version by Naz Deravian.
• Baking references: Dorie Greenspan's "Hungarian Shortbread" and Michel Polzine's "Bulgarian Shortbread."
• The book Good Things, Samin's upcoming/new release.
• Film rec: The Taste of Things (2023), highly recommended by both hosts for food lovers.
• Berkeley Bowl as a Bay Area must-visit for food enthusiasts.
• Home Cooking show merch and newsletters (subscribing info provided).

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Summary

"Apricot Girl Summer" is quintessential Home Cooking: deeply knowledgeable, laughter-filled, and grounded in the meaning that food carries in our lives. The episode walks a delightful path through practical cooking science, personal ritual, and listener care, offering recipes and advice, but more so, holding space for memory, connection, and the sweetness of food as acts of love—even when your jam doesn’t set!

Transcript

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Ruby.

[B]

Whether you're a passionate home cook or just trying to get dinner on the table without stress, Ruby Online culinary school.

[A]

Has you covered with options from a $30 membership to their comprehensive pro cook certification. There's something for every cooking journey.

[B]

You'll learn from industry experts with personalized feedback, all 100% online so you can fit it into your life.

[A]

Over a million students trust Ruby. Join them at learn.rubby. that's R O U X B E.com Cookwith. Are you first or am I first?

[B]

You're gonna do all of it. You're gonna do both lines.

[A]

Oh, okay. Hi, I'm Samin. And I'm Rishi. And we're home cooking.

[B]

Then I have to say what episode number on?

[A]

Oh, this is episode 20 of our four part series. Ha ha ha ha ha. Charming joke here. Or not so charming joke.

[B]

No notes.

[A]

Oh, I did a great job.

[B]

Yeah, that was great.

[A]

Wow. I'm so good at this.

[B]

This is our new season.

[A]

It's our new season under the sun. Please don't put that in. Oh, God.

[B]

100%. That's going in.

[A]

I don't know what came over. It was the string cheese.

[B]

Maybe it was a sing cheese. Sing cheese. I'm excited.

[A]

I'm pretty excited too, honestly. I was thinking about all the stuff I was eating because I knew you.

[B]

Were gonna ask me, what are you eating?

[A]

Oh, well, I've noticed that in my. As my emotional state and psychological state. Crumbles. I only want to eat crumbles that have. I only want to eat crumbles. I only want to eat foods that are appropriate in a kindergartner's lunchbox.

[B]

Basically. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So here's the remainder of the PB&J that I made this morning on soft white bread.

[B]

On white bread? Ye.

[A]

Yep. With bon maman jam. And crunchy like peanut butter. You know, not stir.

[B]

A kindergartner, but a fancy kindergartner.

[A]

I don't know. Well, boom. I just mean it's grocery store jam, as in it's not Smuckers, but it's not like artisanal jam where I picked the fruit or someone I know it's from Costco. Then I had a string cheese. Those are the things I've eaten so far. And then as a backup, I have the salad. This I will say will make some noise. Cause it has cucumbers, corn and cabbage in it has cherry tomatoes. Has only C ingredients, apparently. And cilantro. Oh, my God. It really has only C ingredients.

[B]

Cacophony.

[A]

A cacophony of c. Ingredients.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What have you been eating? Wait. Excuse me. I unexpectedly ended up at your house one afternoon for what I thought was going to be a brief visit that turned into a very long visit. But I was very hungry in the unexpectedly long visit, so at least twice, I went into your kitchen to try and find food.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was really annoyed that it was all whole ingredients. There was just nothing. It was just, like, dry chickpeas.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And, like, cans of. It was like. There was no food.

[B]

Oh, no. It's a teenage me nightmare of a.

[A]

Pantry, and I am a teenage you, because I. I truly was like, I just need a spoonful of peanut butter. And there was a jar of peanut butter, and I opened it, and it just had, like, the crusty dregs of the part that you don't mix.

[B]

No. You must have been looking in the wrong place. Were you looking in the big pantry?

[A]

No, I looked in your, like, protein shake area.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, we might have just been out.

[A]

Yeah. It was a bad day, Rasheed.

[B]

It was a bad day.

[A]

It was a bad day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But other than protein shakes, which we all know about, what else have you been eating?

[B]

Well, the best thing that I ate recently that I wanted to tell you about was something that I had in.

[A]

Georgia for Father's Day.

[B]

Yeah. It was a Father's Day trip with my dad and Lindsay and her aunt, and we met up with her mom and her mom's husband, Charlie, and we all took a road trip to northern Georgia. And it was really sweet and very nice. But the one thing that I wanted most from that trip was I wanted to recreate some version of a moment that I'd experienced with my mom. I think we were dropping my sister off to college, and we were. I just remember driving somewhere in Georgia and my mom excitedly telling my dad to pull over because there was some dude with a sign on the side of the road selling boiled peanuts. And my mom was like, oh, we are getting these. And so we went. And then she came back with, like, just a bag of hot boiled peanuts. And then she ate them so happily in the car as a snack. And at the time, I was allergic to peanuts, so I could only experience her joy sort of vicariously. But now, weirdly, I've outgrown my peanut allergy, and I thought, okay, we're going back to Georgia. We're going to be on the road for an hour. Can we find boiled peanuts? And we did.

[A]

I wonder if you'll explain to Folks, what boiled peanuts are and about their texture.

[B]

First of all, these were not just boiled peanuts. We stopped at this farm stand, and they had, like, four giant pots outside. Two of them were regular boiled peanuts, but two of them contained Cajun boiled peanuts, which I never had before, but I had those. And I was like, this is really what my mom would have loved. I don't know if she'd ever had them, but they were spicy, so it's just, you know, like a big pressure cooker kind of thing. They boil peanuts in salty, spicy water.

[A]

Yeah. My understanding is that I thought boiled peanuts are made with freshly dug peanuts.

[B]

Yeah. Like green peanuts.

[A]

Yeah. So they're not like the peanuts in the brown, crunchy shell. They're in a shell. Yeah, they are, but they're not the sort of roasted peanut that we're used to, like, at the ballpark.

[B]

Yeah. These have not been roasted or dried.

[A]

Exactly. And so it's kind of like the equivalent of, like, a fresh shell bean versus a dried shell bean still in the podium. And then they get boiled, and it's kind of delightful to like. It's kind of like eating edamame in a way.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so when you, like, squeeze them out of the pod into your mouth, they're, like, creamy. Almost like. How would you describe it?

[B]

It's such a good texture. They still have, like, a tiny, tiny bit of. It's almost like, al dente but creamy. And they've absorbed all that, like, seasoned water. And so it was really great. And I ate them in the car, and I thought of my mom, and it was just so nice.

[A]

That's awesome. I love a boiled peanut.

[B]

I'm so excited for us to be doing another episode.

[A]

Me too. I mean, I generally dread anything to do with you.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

But this morning, I woke up and I was like, oh, we get to do the fun thing where there's questions carefully selected for me.

[B]

I'm excited about these questions because there's something in your upcoming book that I was excited to talk to you about.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

And I found a way, I think, to get there, because there's some questions that we got that are gonna lead us there.

[A]

Oh, I can't wait.

[B]

I'm gonna play you two questions, both of which have two parts.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay, here we go. We're gonna start with Melissa and Alon.

[A]

This is Melissa and Alon. We're calling from Portland, Oregon, and we have two questions for you. Firstly, we have inherited prolific rhubarb plants after moving to our house two Years ago. We love making jam and baking with it, but we were wondering if you had any other creative uses for it in vegetarian cooking.

[B]

And secondly, we are also enthusiastic but novice jammers and canners. We have been working on water bath canning some of our jams. Our question is whether the sugar content only contributes to taste and texture or is it required for successful preservation. We prefer less sweet flavors and are willing to sacrifice some jammy texture, but want to make sure we are following safe canning practices. Okay, and then here's Katrina.

[C]

This is Katrina in Vermont, and I've got two questions. One is about last summer's peach jam, which I made from yellow peaches and is not really jam. It's like gummy peaches floating in delicious peachy syrup. The peaches themselves are not entirely gummy, but they're very chewy, and the syrup is delicious and very syrupy, but not jammy. Well, how would you enjoy six or more pint jars of such a concoction, I wonder. My other question is about copper bowls. My mother recently passed away, and I inherited a beautiful copper bowl that I think she used to use for whipping egg whites into possibly madeleines or other things. But I'm wondering what other dishes really benefit from copper or what other reactions really benefit from copper and how I might use this beautiful bowl. Thank you so much.

[B]

As I was looking through your beautiful new book, I was looking at this one recipe that you have for jam. Thinking about the jar of jam that I got from you that I still have in my fridge.

[A]

Yeah. It's very rude, honestly, because it's so.

[B]

Special to me, and I'm hoarding it from myself.

[A]

I know, but you just need to eat it.

[B]

I do need to eat it.

[A]

It doesn't get better with time.

[B]

I still have it in there. And as I'm looking at the beautiful photographs that go with this recipe, I noticed that you have a copper bowl in one of the pictures.

[A]

Oh, there's a copper pot. Yeah. There's a copper jam pot for that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I see you linking all the things. You're doing a great job.

[B]

So let's start at the beginning. Before we get into the jam of it all, Melissa and Alon first asked about ideas for reusing rhubarb.

[A]

Yeah. So when I moved it into the home I live now in the garden, there was also a rhubarb plant, which was very exciting to me because I also love rhubarb. I love how sour it is. But our rhubarb here doesn't get red. It Sort of is, like, green with a tinge of pink. And part of that has to do with the temperature. Part of that has to do with the variety of rhubarb. And part of that has to do with exposure to sunlight. And so it's always, like, very exciting to harvest my own rhubarb and use it. But it's a little bit sad. Cause it's not the, like, bright, beautiful red rhubarb that you buy at the store that you think of with rhubarb. And I do think that when you go farther north, that rhubarb tends to grow more red. So my hope for you guys is that you have the beautiful red rhubarb.

[B]

I have a question. I'm just realizing as I listened to you talk about that, like, one, I was thinking, have I ever seen raw rhubarb? I don't know that I have. 2. I don't think I've ever had rhubarb on its own. I.

[A]

Without strawberry?

[B]

Without the strawberry. And so when you said that's a.

[A]

Classic crime, I think when you were.

[B]

Describing the flavor, I was like, wait, is that what the flavor is? I just realized I know very little about rhubarb. So will you give a little rhubarb 101?

[A]

I mean, I don't know that I'm the, like, queen of all rhubarb, but.

[B]

But the duchess of rhubarb.

[A]

I might be the duchess.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Enough to give us a 101.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So rhubarb grows on a plant that looks a lot like a celery. And the part of the rhubarb that we eat is the stalk. Just like we eat a celery stalk often. The rhubarb that one can buy at the market or the store is this kind of amazing bright red color. And in fact, in England, you can do something called forcing rhubarb. And that's basically like it's grown in dark greenhouses. I don't know how to explain that. It's just grown in a warm, dark room.

[B]

Why is it forced?

[A]

I think the forcing refers to the fact that it's done in this, like, deeply unnatural way.

[B]

Ugh. Sounds rhubarbaric.

[A]

I know. It's really cruel. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. That was your reaction to that?

[A]

Did you say rhubarbaric?

[B]

I did.

[A]

Oh, I didn't hear the first part.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I just heard barbaric. Oh, no. Okay. Oh, God. Okay. So forced rhubarb comes out a little bit sweeter. Cause Rhubarb is very, very, very sour. And actually, the other thing to note is that the leaves are po. So if there's any leaf left on the rhubarb stock that you buy, or if you're harvesting your own, make sure you trim away all the leaves. So in my experience, if you want to make a dessert with rhubarb, it takes a lot of sugar. Especially if you're a person who's like, I don't need tons of sugar in my food. You kind of need a lot of sugar for rhubarb. And also because there's so much water in the stock, adding sugar pulls all that water out. And so if you don't do it carefully, you'll get just, like, a soggy piece or a soggy galette. So I do have a vegetarian recipe suggestion for them beyond just, like, desserts and sweet things. One is you can roast your rhubarb. You can, like, oil and salt it and roast it, and it'll be this, like, tangy ingredient in something else that you could serve, you know, in early springtime. You could also say, like, you probably have some butternut squash or winter squashes around. I would pair it with something sweet. So you're having, like, a sweet and a savory sort of roasted vegetable dish, you know, maybe with some candied walnuts or candied pecans.

[B]

Is there something that you would compare rhubarb to if you were to treat it like a savory, roasted, salted thing?

[A]

No, because it's so sour. I'm trying to think of another very sour thing.

[B]

Well, that's exciting that it's not like, oh, it's comparable to this. It's its own thing.

[A]

Yeah, it's really its own thing. And then if you're up for, like, a little bit more of a project, there is a traditional Persian rhubarb stew that's really delicious. And usually it's made with lamb or chicken or beef, but you can leave those out. And, in fact, Naz Daravian, who is a wonderful Persian cook and recipe developer, has a vegetarian version of the stew. We'll link to it. She sort of replaces the animal proteins with beans. I think chickpeas would work really great. But there's an herb base, like many Persian stews, where you chop up and saute a bunch of herbs, and then you add this rhubarb, and you could add canned beans or other cooked beans in and eat that with rice and yogurt, and it would be so Persians love sour things. And we love putting, like dried sour limes, plums, all sorts of sour things into our savory stews. So I think that's maybe one of my favorite non dessert ways to enjoy rhubarb.

[B]

Well, I want to go back to what you were saying about the sugar being necessary with the rhubarb. The second part of Melissa Nalan's question was about the amount of sugar that's used in jams. Is there any part of it that is not for flavor?

[A]

Yes. In fact, this is. I'm so glad they asked this. I was literally just ranting about this to someone the other day. The thing about sugar, sugar plays many roles in cooking beyond just sweetness. It's hard for us to imagine because sugar is just this, like simple single molecule that's only sweet, but it has so many textural roles in baked goods. It helps keep things tender, it helps create caramelization and browning. And so there are all these different reasons why amounts of sugar in recipes are important to not super duper mess with, because it will affect all sorts of other qualities of your recipe besides just the sweetness. So that's one thing to keep in mind. In terms of jam specifically, sugar is also an important preservative. So if there's not enough sugar, your jam can go bad. A lot of people here in the Bay Area love their low sugar recipes. They'll give me a low sugar jam, and by the time I've opened it, it's moldy. So you can absolutely make a low sugar jam, but you need to know that it's not gonna be shelf stable. So that kind of thing you wanna keep in the freezer or the fridge. So when you're making jam, it's almost like in the way that I think about salt, fat, acid, heat being these four points on a compass. With jam, there are also like sort of multiple elements on the compass that need to be in balance to create the right texture and to make sure that you're in the safety zone of preservation. And those elements are pectin, which is a sort of a vegetable form of a gelatin. It's the thing in fruits that helps jam set. Like apples have a lot of pectin. And when you cook applesauce, there's sort of like a jelliness to it. It's what makes things gel. And then the other elements of the balance are sugar, acid, which is why often jam recipes have added lemon juice and the cooking time. So those are sort of the four variables in making sure what's happening. Hold on. I'M just. I wanted to refer to my.

[B]

This is one of my. I thought a fly was buzzing around your head and you were trying to locate it.

[A]

That's so funny. No, no. When we record, I sit at my desk and above my head there are cookbooks, many cookbooks. And I do have a bunch of, like, jam specific, preserve specific cookbooks. And I was like, oh, this is a River Cottage handbook. And I love this one because it has a really useful chart of the various fruits and vegetables and their amounts of pectin and amounts of acid inherent. And so it says rhubarb is low pectin and low acid. So that means you need to add a fair amount of acid to get to the safety point. And on its own, if you don't want to add pectin from another source, it'll never get that sort of gel set texture. Which explains when people make like rhubarb pie or even strawberry rhubarb pie. Cause strawberries are also low pectin. Traditionally, they'll add a little bit of tapioca flour or cornstarch to help the pie filling set. Cause otherwise, once you cook it and cut into it, it'll just be super runny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so these kinds of things you have to, like, understand. But a good rule of thumb that I like to sort of adhere by when making jam with any fruit is to start with 25% sugar by weight. And that means, like, you clean your fruit, you weigh it, and then you calculate 25% of that by weight. So if you had 1,000 grams of rhubarb, you would add 250 grams of sugar to start with, minimum. Some things take a little bit more.

[B]

To set, but you wouldn't just go rhubarb. Right. It would be rhubarb and something else for jam. Yeah.

[A]

I'm not out there making a ton of rhubarb jam, but I do believe in the supremacy of the rhubarb pie and the rhubarb galette.

[B]

Supremacy over rhubarb.

[A]

I like a plain rhubarb. I also like strawberry rhubarb. Don't get me wrong. I just feel like many people like you have no idea what this wonderful thing tastes like and that it has its own character, which is this amazing sort of sour quality. And it's just a very specific type of tartness that I find to be really special. And so, to me, I love all fruit a lot. But there is something for me about early spring fruits as they come that's very exciting. Because it's like, for many months at that point, you've only had apples and oranges. I mean, and. Which are great, but, like, it's the sign that times are a changing. And soon the trees will be filled with plums and nectarines and cherries and apricots, and the bushes will be filled with berries of all kinds, so that it's a harbinger of abundance. And so there's a way where that rhubarb, in my mind, deserves to have its own, like, moment of celebration.

[B]

Well, you mentioned just now the texture, if there isn't enough sugar, that the pie mixture, for example, might be too runny. I want to remind you of the first part of Katrina's question.

[C]

Peach jam, which I made from yellow peaches and is not really jam. It's like gummy peaches floating in delicious peachy syrup.

[B]

Gummy peaches floating in peachy syrup.

[A]

I mean, I've done that. There have been so many times I've spent so much energy preserving something. And then you open it later, and you're like, what did I make? Like? And you're just like, wow, what a waste of time, energy, money, everything. And so I feel you. I mean, gummy's not often a word you really want to use to describe the texture of your food. Unless it's like, Haribo candies.

[B]

I mean, ironically, a great candy.

[A]

It is a gummy peach. It's true. It's true.

[B]

But is this an instance of her not using enough sugar, you think? Can you retroactively diagnose what happened there?

[A]

No, I don't think that that's what it is. Also, because I can't fully picture the gummy peaches that she made and the syrup. But I would recommend you divide them and you use them separately. So the syrup, to me, sounds really tasty, and I think that would be a great thing to add to, like, any sort of a drink. A spritzer, fizzy water, white wine, fizzy wine. In fact, you could puree the whole thing and literally make a Bellini, which is just peach puree and some sort of fizzy wine, or just, like, use it as a base for some sort of creative, refreshing summer drink. That's sort of what I would recommend to do with the syrup and then with the gummy fruit, I think you could further just, like, mush it down, maybe even with a little bit of the syrup, cook it for a little bit longer, until it really does become sort of like a conserves texture, which is just like, mashed, cooked fruit texture. You could make an almond cake or some sort of a crumb cake if.

[B]

Say, you're emotionally crumbling.

[A]

Yeah. You could also make. There are these wonderful cookies that Dorie Greenspan first wrote about in Baking with Julia, which was a cookbook based on. There was a TV show, I think, of Baking with Julia Child. She would have all these guest pastry chefs come and they would share their sort of, like, best recipe as well.

[B]

Is that where she had Nancy Silverton on and cried?

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Cried. Oh, such a good show.

[A]

Yes, she cried with Nancy Silverton. Classic, right? And so Dorie Greenspan, amazing, like, legendary pastry chef and just wonderful cook and New York Times food columnist. The recipe that she shared with Julia was something that she called Hungarian shortbread.

[B]

If I were shortbread, I would be hungry, too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, okay. I got it. Shortbread, hungry. I got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Michel Polzine, the great pastry chef from 20th Century Cafe in San Francisco, which is now, sadly no more. She adapted that recipe into something she called Bulgarian shortbread as a sort of a play. It had nothing to do with Bulgaria. But both of these recipes, which are both wonderful, consist of a rich, buttery cookie dough. You make the cookie dough, you let it rest, and then you take a large grater, like a box grater, and you grate the dough and you sort of pack. You just gently pack this half of the grated dough into a 9 by 13 pan. You don't press it super hard because you kind of want there to be lightness and air pockets in there. And then you spread jam in between. Or in this case, you could spread gummy peach mush in between and then top it with the remainder of the grated dough and bake it. And it turns into this incredible sort of. It really does look like it's a crumble texture, but it has a really wonderful shortbread quality of, like, melting on your tongue. But they're just these jam bars, basically. Another thing to do is to make a classic Italian jam crostata, which is a similar kind of, like, short pastry, crumbly pastry that gets pressed into a pan and then filled with jam. And then you kind of make a cross hatch pattern with more dough on top. So it kind of looks like jam squares. But I think a jam square or a jam shortbread would be a great way to use up your mushy fruit. There's this beautiful Rebecca Solnit quote. Hold on, let me find it.

[B]

Can I tell you the quote? Making preserves is an art of stalling time, of making the fruit that is so Evanescent last indefinitely. Each container is a capsule in which time stands still.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

And so is that the quote you were thinking of?

[A]

It's so beautiful. That is the one I was going to say.

[B]

Is this your card?

[A]

Is this my card?

[B]

Like a magic trick, you know, one of the.

[A]

Oh, my card. It is my card. Good job. And thank you for pulling that up, because that's how I feel about preserving fruit and making jam and sort of the act of, like, harvesting fruit and preserving it in a jar is, for me, it's a time machine. And so even when things don't turn out perfectly or, like, the best ever or as good as I could buy from somebody else, I get to return to a moment in time. And so, for example, three years ago, I was making my annual apricot jam while my dad was in the hospital dying. And so I really associate, sort of this ritual that I do every year now that's been layered into it is like, oh, this is a thing that I did that year in July. And I think that's why I wouldn't want to suggest you don't use that fruit or that it's not good enough or that you throw it away. Because even if it doesn't make the best cookies or the best dessert or the best anything in the world, there's a way for you to retrace your steps in time and remember something about your life and the time that you spent for yourself and to make it.

[B]

So that's part of the reason why I haven't eaten the jam that you made.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Because I look at it and I see the label that you and I worked on together. I helped you make.

[A]

It's true. You helped me make that label.

[B]

And I think the jam is from 2022.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Oh, it's the sad jam.

[B]

I think it's from 2022. And it was a meaningful time. And I did have a bite just before we started recording. Am I going to be sick?

[A]

No, it's not gonna kill you. Also, that's the other thing about jam in general. The kind of mold that's going to happen on a jar of jam is not a lethal, scary, toxic kind. So if there is mold, you just scrape it off and throw it away. What can happen is if you don't catch that mold soon enough, the whole thing will sort of get moldy or just start to taste fermenty and gross.

[B]

About every six months, I'll take a tiny, tiny little edge of a spoonful.

[A]

Oh, my God rich.

[B]

And just have a little taste.

[A]

I'm gonna. I should have eaten it when I was going through your fridge and needed.

[B]

Something to eat, and I thought it was all fine. But then at the end of your recipe here in good things, it says, divide the jam into 7 or 8 half pint jars, cover and refrigerate for up to 6 months, or heat process the jars for 10 minutes to seal and store at room temperature for up to one year. And I was like, I am two years past that one year.

[A]

Okay, well, here's a secret, Rishi. A recipe writer's secret. Pretty much all of the serve by use by info. You pull it out of your wahoo hoo and you make it up. And so I can't speak for anyone else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I am very conservative with your fruit conserves. Yes. Stop it. Because I would rather err on the side of caution. However, do I eat stuff at my house that's way older and way past all the time?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But no, I definitely learned the lesson that the use by date is really.

[A]

Like a suggestion, a gentle suggestion. Sometimes it is very much about safety, but most of the time it's just about, like, the quality of something degrades over time. Or with the jam in particular, because I don't make industrial jam. Is yours totally brown?

[B]

No, sorry. I was just thinking about nine inch nails.

[A]

I don't. I. What does that mean?

[B]

Linish nails. They love to make industrial jams.

[A]

Oh, my God. Are we ever gonna get past these two questions?

[B]

Nope. This is the whole episode. Do you know I was reading your recipe, and in my head, I was just like, what's so nice is that the writing of it feels so much like you. You know, like, I hear your voice as I'm reading it, and I have heard you narrating things, so I know the samin narration voice, and I started doing it.

[A]

Oh, are you gonna mimic me in your. Are you gonna read the recipe and mimic me?

[B]

I'll just read the. I'll just read.

[A]

Oh, well, I guess I earned it because I introduced the show as you.

[B]

That's true. Okay. Only fair. A ripening fruit is no one's schedule but its own. So my most sacred culinary ritual begins in early May each year with a call to my favorite. Or wait, wait. I check on the timing of their apricots. Do you say apricots or apricots? That was one thing I wasn't sure about. Apricots. Apricots are a temperamental wonder.

[A]

Oh, my God, Stop. I'm Crawling out of my skin. Is it.

[B]

Am I totally wrong?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. It's just really uncomfortable. It's a really uncomfortable.

[B]

Can you read a little bit of it yourself so then I can compare?

[A]

Are you gonna do, like, some sound magic where your voice melts into my voice?

[B]

Oh, that would be good. Unique among stone fruits for the way they ripen from the inside out.

[A]

From the inside out.

[B]

They make us wait until it's nearly too late before revealing their secrets.

[A]

Oh, my God. What have I done? My two favorite varieties are Blenheim, sometimes called Royal Blenheim, and Bonnie, Royal floral and delicate. These apricots don't travel very well and.

[B]

Are quick to spoil.

[A]

I hate myself. I hate myself.

[B]

Oh, so nice. Thank you.

[A]

Wow. Is this what it's gonna be the whole time?

[B]

Oh, get ready.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no.

[B]

A second date just added in San Francisco. You're gonna be over this before we even leave California.

[A]

Before I even leave my house. Yeah.

[B]

And so the last part of this is the copper bowl. You know, I saw the picture of the copper.

[A]

The copper. I see you were trying to create, like, a thread, and I really appreciate that reach. But I will say my copper jam pot is not the same as a copper bowl. So a bowl is made of thinner ply, and so it's not something you necessarily heat. But one of the amazing qualities of copper is its ability to conduct heat and evenly distribute it and get very hot very quickly. And one of my goals as a jam maker is to cook the fruit as little as possible in order to try and preserve the sort of inherent fresh qualities of that fruit.

[B]

Huh. That's so interesting. It feels like the opposite of what you think of when you. I don't know. When I think of jam, totally.

[A]

And you have to cook it enough so that it's safe and cooked. But it's kind of like you want to retain that sense of the, like, July day you picked the fruit instead of it being this, like, super cooked taste.

[B]

Oh, I see the taste. Like you want it to still feel like a fresh strawberry or raspberry. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so there is a woman. Here, let me pull it down. Another of my favorite jam books. Oh, here it is. There's this woman, Christine Fairber, and she's kind of the modern mother of this method of making jam where you cut up the fruit, toss it with the minimum amount of sugar that you're going to use, and let it sit overnight in the fridge. That's called macerating. The sugar starts to draw out water from the fruit. So now you kind of have this fruit soup, and your goal is to cook that liquid down without having to cook the fruit down so you can separate the fruit and the liquid, cook this, like, massive amount of liquid down so that it's to the right texture and temperature and setting point, and then add your fruit back in and just barely cook the fruit. And this is super messy. It's multi step. It's a pain in the butt. And it's how I make all my jam, because to me, it makes the best, best jam. And it's how this recipe for apricot jam in the book is also written. One of the things that I've learned from this goal of cooking your fruit for as little time as possible is that you want a pot that is going to get hot and stay hot so that you can boil off that liquid and cook the fruit as quickly as possible so that the total time spent on the stove is as little as possible. And because copper is such a great heat conductor, it works very well for that. Like, sometimes I have too much fruit for just my one pot, so I end up having to put a second amount of the same exact macerated fruit in a stainless steel pot that's a very similar size and shape on the stove. And the difference is wild. Like, it takes almost twice as long to cook in stainless steel as it does in copper. So now I just borrow all the copper jam pots from all the pastry people I know when my apricots come in, so I can just get it done as fast as possible. And a copper bowl is another traditional French pastry tool because there is some reaction, as far as I know, that happens between egg whites and, like, the copper ions to help egg whites whisk up more quickly and to hold their shape better. But that literally is the only use of a copper bowl is whipping egg whites. I have one. I love them. I think they're really pretty. But I really only use it if I'm going to make some sort of eggy thing. I would encourage you to keep this beautiful copper bowl as a family heirloom. But there isn't a lot for you to be doing.

[B]

Her mom used it to make meringue. So maybe it's time to learn how to make meringue.

[A]

Eggnog, angel food cake.

[B]

A souffle, maybe.

[A]

Oh, a souffle is a great one.

[B]

I only know about souffles from the movie Sabrina.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say ratatouille. I don't know if there's Any whipped egg whites in ratatouille?

[B]

I will tell you in ratatouille. The whole kitchen is full of beautiful copper cookware.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Can I tell you something so awesome?

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

I watched a movie that is so beautiful. It is, I think, my new number one favorite food media of all time.

[B]

Okay, tell me.

[A]

It's called the Taste of things. It's from 2023, starring Juliet Binoche. Are you laughing? Because you told me to watch this and I didn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Classical.

[B]

Told you at length. In fact, I wrote a whole newsletter about it.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

This is like when I was like, rishi, I found the best show.

[B]

Yes. Better Things.

[A]

It's called Better Things. You're like, literally to me, and I told you about this.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

What's wrong with me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, the reason it popped into my head at this moment is that that kitchen in this beautiful film is also chock full of incredibly gorgeous copper cookware.

[B]

Yeah. In fact, the picture I posted in the newsletter has copper cookware in it.

[A]

Oh, am I gonna read your newsletter where you wrote about the taste of Things?

[B]

The seventh paragraph.

[A]

Okay. The taste of things I can't do.

[B]

Great start. Great start.

[A]

How do I channel. I gotta find the most butter in my voice. The Taste of Things is a quiet, beautiful. I can't do it. I'm not you. I can't do it. The film luxuriates in scenes of preparing elaborate dishes, mostly wordlessly. I don't know who I'm making fun of right now, but it's not. I don't.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

It's pretty painful. It's not fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just painful in any voice to have somebody read your own writing at you. I just keep thinking I watched it maybe a week ago, and everything I cook, I'm just thinking about it. I'm like, wow. Everything is, like this act of love, which is also what the sort of message of good things is, is cooking. And, like, the time that you spend is a way of sharing, like, what's most precious to you, your own time with people. And it's an antidote to this. Like, I just go into reality in the world, and I feel so sad and so bad and so overwhelmed. And then there was just this, like, ultimate sort of sensory delight. It was so beautiful. And so if you like food things, it's truly so special. Like, please go watch the Taste of Things.

[B]

I'll check it out. Thank you for the recommendation.

[A]

Yeah. I thought you might like it, Rishi? Yeah, thanks a lot. I'm so embarrassed we should call this show like embarrassingsamine.com.

[B]

Not only are we back with a new season of episodes, we've also got brand new home cooking merch. We finally put our tomato can home cooking logo on a shirt. You can get it as a T shirt or a sweatshirt or a tank top or even a onesie for little baby home cooks. Plus, there's a tote bag with the drawing of the round salt can thing that has Samin and myself and our dogs, Fava Bean and Watson on it. It is the pinnacle of tote bags and there is a pun in there if you think about how pinnacle is spelled. There's also a special shirt in honor of our special recurring guest, the man with hot takes and a surprisingly high pitched giggle. My dad, known to Samin and all my close friends as Sumesh Uncle. He has his own shirt that says Team Sumesh uncle featuring three little jars of saffron. And he undoubtedly has very strong opinions about their color and flavor. And of course, there's also still the OG sweatshirt with the drawing of the can of sardines and the inexplicable shrimp Jenga forever shirt. And all of this stuff was illustrated by our wonderful Mamie Ryan Gold. And all of it is available at Homecooking Show Merch. Again, it's Homecooking Show Merch. We all know that listening to Samin's exciting recipe ideas can get you very inspired. But the fact is that Stupid Life might get in the way of your cooking ambitions.

[A]

I mean, Stupid life gets in my own way all the time.

[B]

Well, in moments like that, when you still want to make something yummy but you don't have time to do a whole thing, you can turn to Home Chef.

[A]

Home Chef has healthy and exciting dishes. They have over 30 meal options per week suitable for a variety of different dietary needs.

[B]

Like, I chose the vegetarian option and I just had the farmer's market veggie pasta for dinner.

[A]

And I tried the sweet and spicy peanut noodles with bok choy. You know how I'm a sucker for peanut sauce.

[B]

And I know how you find nudes sweet and spicy noodles. Oh, you said noodles. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

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[A]

And for a limited time, Home Chef is offering home cooking listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box, plus free dessert for Life.

[B]

Go to homechef.com homecooking that's homechef.com homecookings for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Homechef.com homecookinG.

[A]

You must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert.

[B]

All right, you ready for the next question?

[A]

I want more. Give me more.

[D]

Hi, Rishi and Samin, this is Aryeh. I live in Oakland, California, but I'm actually recording from the Berkeley bowl parking lot, the world's greatest supermarket. I have a question for you. My wife is pregnant, seven months pregnant, and she's iron deficient. And we are trying to find creative ways to get more iron into our diets that are not sauteed spinach and roasted chickpeas. So I wonder if you have any ideas for fun little ways to add some iron into our meals. Thanks so much. Love the show. Love you guys.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

So cute. Also, my local grocery store too. The shift detective in me, if you will, believes that they might be vegetarian because the examples didn't include beef.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the reason why I do know something about this is that my girlfriend has been severely anemic for the last several months and we have been trying to work iron into our food. But I will say you're already on your path with spinach and chickpeas. So if you do eat meat, one of the highest sources of iron is actually chicken livers or beef liver. So I often will make some chicken liver pate and sort of have that around for her to eat. But in terms of non meat sources of iron, legumes have a lot. So you're on it with chickpeas. But the legume with the most iron like per capita is kidney beans. So I think again with the Persian recipes here, there is a classic Persian stew. Some people think of it as the national dish of Iran. Actually. It's called gormesh habsi and it's a stew with a base of greens, like sauteed herbs of all kinds and onions, and then often lamb. But you could totally just leave the meat out. And also kidney beans, there's dried limes in there and it's kind of got this wonderful sour quality. It's really delicious with rice. So you could make a big batch of gourmet sabzi with or without meat. Another way I really like to use kidney beans is in chili. So again, I made some beef and kidney bean chili and that we just keep in the freezer. But you could make it with impossible meat or you could just leave meat out altogether and make a multi bean chili. The nice thing about gorma sabzi is it incorporates greens and green things, whether herbs or like heartier green leafed vegetables like spinach. But also collard greens and kale are quite high in iron. And there are certain foods that help the absorption of minerals. So one of the elements that helps our bodies absorb more iron from our food or from our supplements is vitamin C. So you want to add citrus into a dish with any of these ingredients.

[B]

So that's why the chili's a great idea, because then you've got tomatoes in there.

[A]

Yeah. And tomatoes have a lot of vitamin C. So that's a great thought too. Yeah. Or just make sure that you're also taking vitamin C along with your iron supplements and your iron food. I have a feeling, because Rishi and I are criminally behind with our questions, that your baby will be born, the anemia will have passed, but I hope that these recipe ideas serve you in some way. And I hope I get to see you at Berkeley bowl sometime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For those of you who don't know, add Berkeley bowl onto any travel itinerary when you come to the Bay Area because it truly is just like the most incredible grocery store of all time.

[B]

The thing about, you know, the sort of companion ingredient that helps the benefits of one ingredient get more fully absorbed reminds me of this other thing that I had recently. I tried making my own golden milk like turmeric.

[A]

You Haldi Dud as you will.

[B]

Exactly. My Haldi Dud. Yeah. I tried to make it on my own because the other day I went to go get coffee with someone and me being a non coffee drinker, I.

[A]

Was like, ooh, did you go to go get em tiger?

[B]

That's exactly where I was.

[A]

They have the best turmeric milk.

[B]

It was really good.

[A]

It's so good there. I've. It is so delicious there.

[B]

And I was thinking about, you know, the anti inflammatory qualities of turmeric.

[A]

And you're like, I'm about to talk to Samin and get inflamed so I need to pre turmeric.

[B]

So I was like, okay, I can do this. And I put black pepper in there.

[A]

Oh yes. So your body can better absorb the turmeric. Yeah. I think the beneficial element in turmeric is called curcumin.

[B]

And yeah, I looked it up and it's something like you get 400% better absorption if there's some black pepper along with the turmeric.

[A]

Isn't that wild?

[B]

Which is wild. Yeah. But the problem was, and I think the reason why I will never make it again at Home is that it stained everything. The pot that I made it in, the mug that I had it in.

[A]

You know what works in my experience with removing turmeric? Ye old magic eraser. I wash my pots with them all the time. And then you just wash them with soap.

[B]

Oh, okay, great. I have those. Yeah, it was delicious, but it made me think I should just go out of the house for this.

[A]

Well, if I lived as close to go get em tiger as you do, I would just drink that.

[B]

We have a special segment for this episode. We've got a chef detective question that came in.

[A]

Hit me.

[E]

Hi, Samin and Rishi. My name is Angie, and I have a question for the chef detective. So for background. I'm Chinese American. My parents are from Beijing, and I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. Growing up, my mom always made this braised beef noodle soup. The base was brown in color. I don't really know what was in it, and I'm hoping you can help me figure it out. There were kind of big hunks of beef. There were the fat noodles that you got from the Chinese grocery store. And my mom would put in carrots, and that was kind of it. Only carrots in. In the soup. And we would top it with cilantro. I'm pretty sure the base had soy sauce, maybe star anise, maybe some clove, definitely some ginger. Whenever I had friends over, one of them would call it licorice soup, if that is a little bit of a hint. When my mom passed away about 10 years ago, the recipe unfortunately died with her. She never wrote it down. I never made it with her. And in the years that have elapsed, I haven't really sat down to try to figure it out myself because I'm afraid it's gonna make me too sad if I get it wrong. And I don't have anybody to give me any feedback. I was hoping that the chef detective could help me figure out maybe some regional recipes or flavor combinations that could have inspired my mom in creating this recipe. I'm pretty sure it was from her mind. She didn't, you know, cook from a cookbook or anything like that. It would be so meaningful to me to be able to recreate this going, you know, into this next chapter of my life. And I really appreciate any help you can offer. Thank you.

[A]

So for me hearing this question, I also feel overwhelmed because I don't know anything about.

[B]

About braised beef noodle soup.

[A]

Braised beef noodle soup from China. Okay. So I couldn't begin to tell you China is a humongous place with many different regions, many different cuisines. So this would require, I think, an inordinate amount of research that I don't even necessarily know how to conduct on my own. So I think we have to call in reinforcements.

[B]

Oh, like call in a consulting detective to the chef.

[A]

Detective, yeah, we need a consulting detective.

[B]

Okay, Exactly. And so who should we call in?

[A]

Well, the first person that comes to mind for me is my friend Emily sue, who is of Taiwanese descent. We've been cooking together for over 20 years. She's one of the most extraordinary cooks I know, and she knows so much about so many cuisines, including many Asian cuisines that I know nothing about. So often when I'm curious about, say, scallion pancakes or just anything with five spice, I call Emily.

[B]

As long as the recipe has spiced four or fewer spices, you're five.

[A]

Exactly. Four or five.

[B]

You have to call Emily.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Five spice rishi is a spice mixture.

[B]

And how did you two first meet?

[A]

We used to work together at Chez Panisse.

[B]

Okay, great. So let's call up Emily.

[A]

Ring, ring.

[B]

Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for joining us.

[F]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Hi, Emily.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

How are you? Good to see you off the bat.

[B]

What's your initial reaction to Angie's question here?

[F]

Oh, it sounds like a relatively classic dish called hongshao nyorou tang or hongshao nyoro tang bian. It just means red braised beef noodle soup.

[A]

What's the red?

[F]

Yeah, well, you know what? For some reason, Chinese people don't really have a good, like, succinct word for brown. So very often it's brown, but sort of, like, tinged sort of red. Not really. Things that are, like, braised with soy sauce or often called red braised, even though it's not actually red.

[B]

Red.

[A]

Oh, that's so cool.

[B]

And do you have an immediate understanding of where the licorice flavor that she described might come from?

[F]

Yeah, totally. She's. She said, like, star anise. And so that's a common ingredient when you braise meat. Like, I think Chinese people think it kind of takes away some of the gaininess of the beef itself.

[A]

Is this a recipe from any particular region in China or beyond, or would this have been a common thing you grew up eating, for example?

[F]

Yeah, I mean, I grew up in Taiwan partially, and there is a Taiwanese beef noodle soup that's relatively famous. It's probably similar to that, although probably not quite as spicy, since she said her parents were from Beijing.

[A]

Could you talk us through how. How you would prepare this dish?

[F]

Yeah, I mean, please take this with a grain of salt because, like, just from how she described it, probably her mom would start it with a little bit of sugar, like rock sugar at the bottom to like, kind of start, like the coloring process and also, like the caramelization process. This sounds really crazy, but, like, sometimes you kind of start sugar and melt it in the bottom to create like the caramel color and then kind of sear your beef in this caramel.

[A]

That sounds delicious.

[F]

Yeah, it's cool. And it, like, creates this kind of flavor base that's really interesting. And then probably on top of that is probably ginger, garlic, and scallions with the meat.

[A]

What kind of beef?

[F]

I think most likely like a shank.

[A]

Shank.

[F]

You know, cross cut shank pieces. And then very often there's like, you know, a small stick of cinnamon that gets thrown into there. And maybe like, if her mother was feeling, you know, extra, like some fennel. Sometimes there's like three different colors of.

[A]

Cardamom that can green, black, and what's the third one?

[B]

White.

[A]

Oh, I had no idea such a thing existed.

[F]

Yeah, I had only ever seen it in Chinese cooking. I've never seen it anywhere else either, which is cool.

[B]

I thought white cardamom was just what Americans use to make chai tea.

[A]

Talk about shots fired. Dang. I know where she.

[B]

Sorry. Do you have any cardamom or do you only have white cardamom?

[A]

Oh, my God. Just to be clear, we make the caramel base with the sugar, and then we put the meat in and brown the meat. And then we put all these aromatics, or the aromatics are also in the pot when the meat goes.

[F]

I mean, like, if you're saying, like, how my mom does it, sometimes she just throws it all in.

[A]

Okay. Throw it all in. Yeah, it seems like that seems very home cooked. Throw it all in.

[F]

You just throw it all in. And then probably like once things are brown, cover it with water. Like, add some dark soy as well as light soy. Light soy for flavor and salt. Dark soy for color. Probably some sort of alcohol.

[A]

Like the Chinese cooking wine.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, Chinese cooking wine. Or like, if they are from Beijing, maybe they use baijiu, which is kind of like, I want to say it's like a sorghum wine or something like that. I've seen my grandmother use vodka. You know, you just use what you got.

[A]

Whatever you got.

[F]

Exactly. Whatever you have, it doesn't have to be strong and it shouldn't, like Most of those wines are not acidic. Not like white wine or something like that.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

And it's again, like, all to kind of tame the gaminess of beef or whatever meat that you're using.

[A]

And then, you know, and then you just simmer that until it's tender, which, for something like shank, will take upwards of three hours. Yes, yes.

[F]

You know, you want to skim it really well because you don't want scummy soup, although they do tend to, like, a little layer of oil on top of it, and then you taste it again for sweetness as well as for salt. That's pretty much it.

[A]

And then you cook the noodles into it at the end.

[F]

No, you cook the noodles separately and then ladle the beef and the soup over the noodles. So, like, if you have any greens that you're serving with your noodles, you throw it in, like, when the noodles are halfway done or something like that, and then you, like, pull it all out. Like, she said that her mom put carrots in it.

[A]

That must be her family curveball. Yeah.

[F]

I mean, I've definitely seen, like, you know, sometimes they put daikon in it. It gives it like, a very, like, specific flavor. Carrots are not unusual. Sometimes there's tomatoes in it, like, which I guess, like, ramps up beefiness or. I mean, you know, it's just like, every home cook has their own thing, right? Like, all the moms have their different way or their different spin or twist on or, like, depending on what you've.

[B]

Got in your refrigerator, Angie, I hope that helps. And please let us know if you try this recipe and if it gets close, if it works for you. Yeah. Does it bring back the taste of growing up?

[A]

Thanks, Emily.

[B]

You're welcome, Emily. Thank you so much.

[A]

You're a lifesaver, man. Thanks for having me.

[B]

Yeah. Licorice flavored lifesaver.

[A]

Yes.

[F]

Delicious.

[A]

Thanks so much to my longtime friend Emily Sue Bowden for her wonderful suggestions and advice and helping us solve this Chef Detective mystery.

[B]

Can you say that last part in the gravelly voice in the.

[A]

And helping us solve this, how does it. I don't. Are you gonna use sound effects to make my voice gravelly, please?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

And helping us solve this Chef Detective mystery.

[B]

Can you just finish the rest of the episode with that voice, please?

[A]

Okay. Because sometimes. Sometimes I just listen to you on Song Exploder, and I'm always like, wow, that guy's voice is real good. I'm like, how come we don't get that, Rishi?

[B]

You think that I sound different?

[A]

Yeah, you sound like professional Rishi.

[B]

Oh, oh, sorry. Should I be more professional?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay. Thanks everybody for listening to this very unprofessional episode.

[A]

Totally unprofessional.

[B]

Oh, Samin has a new substack. It is already delightful. It's at chaosamine.substack.com Also, I didn't know.

[A]

This, but Rishi apparently has a substack he's had for years. He wrote about the taste of things and some cookies.

[B]

Samin, my best friend. Truly caring, so attentive. Right there with me every step of this journey. So yeah, subscribe to our newsletters.

[A]

You'll just get lots of charm and.

[B]

Joy and come see us on tour. We're going to be near you.

[A]

We have so many cities. Come visit us anyway. All the information's at my website. Yeah chowsamin.com you can find recipes, transcripts, resources and merch at Homecooking show [e-mail].

[B]

We made this episode with help from Mary Dolan, Amalia Mourinho and Zach McNeese.

[A]

Mamie Rheingold does our artwork and Rishi made our music.

[B]

Home Cooking is a proud member of prx, a collection of independent, listener supported artist owned podcasts. Learn more at Radiotopia fm.

[A]

Stay healthy, eat well and take care of each other. And thanks for listening. I'm Samin. And I'm Rishi and we'll be Home cooking.

[B]

Nailed it.

[A]

So dumb. Radiotopia.

[F]

From PRX.