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- [00:02]
A
From the Free Press. This is honestly and I'm Bari Weiss, who owns the future of the Democratic Party. That's been the question on everyone's mind since last Tuesday night when the richest city in America elected a 34 year old Democratic Socialist, Zora Mamdani, as its mayor. One way to see Mamdani's win is particular to this race and to New York City. Mamdani is a hyper, charismatic politician who is running against a deeply unlikable candidate plagued by controversy and who ran a terrible campaign. Also, there was a Republican spoiler who refused to get out of the race. But the other way to see Mamdani's victory is as an emblem, a sign about the state and future of the left. Because here was a candidate who was offering a clear vision to solve the affordability crisis, the free childcare, free buses, rent freezes, government run grocery stores. It was socialism. And yet most establishment Democrats fell in line to support him. From Governor Kathy Hochul to Hakeem Jeffries, even to Barack Obama, who gave Mamdani a phone call offering to be his sounding board. If you buy that argument that Mamdani's win represents a shift, the Mamdani might be the new standard bearer in the way that Barack Obama once was. Where does a guy like Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman fit in? Because Fetterman didn't just withhold his endorsement from Mohamdani, he went so far as to say that socialism is, quote, not the future for American Democrats. It's an interesting take given that just a few years ago, John Fetterman ran a progressive Senate campaign focused on criminal justice reform, legalizing marijuana and raising the minimum wage. He was supported by AOC and Bernie Sanders. The right called him a silver spoon socialist. Then, after suffering a near fatal stroke on the day of his Democratic primary, he was accused of being unfit to lead and faced calls from both sides to drop out of the race. He didn't listen. He stayed in and he won, flipping a GOP Senate seat blue. Since coming to Congress, Fetterman has stood out, and not just because he's 6 foot 8. He's shown strong support for Israel, a departure from many of his Democratic colleagues. He said that Democrats mishandled border security under Biden. He praised the president, President Trump, that is on his peace deal in Gaza. And he recently met with Trump in Mar a Lago. He's also publicly blamed his own party for the government shutdown, saying I follow country, then party, adding that he refuses to play chicken with the food security of 42 million Americans and voting 15 times with the Republicans to reopen Washington. On Sunday night, the Republicans, joined by a handful of Democrats, including John Fetterman, moved to reopen the government. But that only happened after 40 days of chaos in which government employees weren't paid, air travel was up for grabs, and and millions of Americans risked losing their snap benefits whether or not to embrace socialism. That's one litmus test, but surely the government shutdown is another one and demonstrated the daylight between the centrists and the progressives, or between, for lack of a better word, the Fettermans and the Mamdanis within the Democratic tent. And now the choice facing Democrats is a stark one. Which impulse will win in the midterms in 2026 and then, of course, in 2028. Today, I asked John Fetterman about all of that and more, about his choice to speak out against his own party, about his dinner with Trump and the backlash that followed about the government shutdown and who is the real leader of the Democratic Party. And finally, his new book, unfettered, about his journey to the Senate, his stroke, his chronic battle with depression, and his time in office, often as an iconoclast. Stay with Us. Honestly is proudly supported by the Jack Miller Center. At a time when our democracy faces real challenges, one question matters more than ever. Are we preparing the next generation to understand and uphold the principles that define America? At the Jack Miller center, they believe the answer begins in the classroom. Their mission is bold, to revive the teaching of America's founding ideals, documents and history on college campuses, in K12 schools and beyond. Since 2004, the Jack Miller center has built a national network of over 1300 scholars who are bringing the American political tradition to life for students across the country. And through their Teach for Freedom campaign, they're working to reach millions more by 2026, our nation's 250th anniversary. Why? Because a strong democracy depends on informed citizens. The Free Press is really proud to partner with the Jack Miller center on Old School, a new podcast about how great books can change your life, hosted by the brilliant Shiloh Brooks. To learn more about their work or to get involved, visit jackmillercenter.org Again, that's jackmillercenter.org. Senator John Fetterman, thanks so much for being here.
- [05:40]
B
No, thank you for being here. It's, it's an honor. And I guess, thank you for having me, honestly.
- [05:48]
A
So we are taping It's Monday at 2pm Eastern Standard Time in case everything falls apart on Capitol Hill by The time this goes live tomorrow at five in the morning on Tuesday. But, but right now, here are the facts on the ground. Last night, the Senate voted to reopen the government after 40 days of shutdown. It was the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. And I think a lot of people who are vaguely following the news but going about their lives are confused about what the hell they just lived through. Because, and I want you to explain to, you know, a normal American citizen why the deal that was on the table 40 days ago is basically the same deal that's now closing. Except over the past 40 days, government employees weren't paid. 42 million Americans risked losing their food security because of SNAP benefits. National parks were closed. Air travel, of course, has been thrown into total and utter chaos. What was the point? Why did the American people have to live through this? Give us your explanation.
- [06:53]
B
Well, for me, as, as a Democrat, you know, our party always believed and we've always expressed that it's always wrong to shut our government down and hold it hostage. And I agree with that. And then when our party decided that, that the base kind of demands that, and I voted to keep our government open back in March and there was significant blowback. But I said I will be back there in September because I know we're going to return to this conversation. And I don't know how many votes will be there, but you know, I was right. There weren't enough votes. And there was only, my only colleague from Nevada and from Maine. We were the only ones saying, hey, look, we want to fight for these tax credits for Obamacare, but this is the wrong way to do it. And I refuse to hold our government hostage. And that lasted for 40 days. And things continue to unravel for America. And for me, the big one was 42 million Americans that count on SNAP to feed themselves and their families. That was absolutely thrown into massive chaos. And the military, they haven't been paid. All of these unions and people that protect us here in the capital haven't been paid. And the people either on my office and, and in other ones haven't been paid. And this thing's run its course and it needed to end. And finally there were five more of my colleagues that decided that they knew that they were going to get blasted. And now, right now, when we are taping this, I have members of my party on the floor effectively attacking us on, on the floor for just deciding to saying we can strongly believe in the tax credits, but this is the wrong way. And we refuse to put our nation into this kinds of chaos.
- [08:52]
A
So what people on the other side of the debate. So let's just take AOC as an example. What she will say is, yes, it's terrible that people's SNAP benefits had lapsed or that they were not able to access them. But she has said, and she put this on on Twitter. Twitter, the monthly SNAP benefit is $177 a person. The average Obamacare benefit is like $550 a person per month. This is what she said. People want us to hold the line for a reason, I. E. Keep the government shut down. It's not a matter of appealing to a base. It's about people's lives. That's your colleague. What do you say to that logic?
- [09:36]
B
The point is, is like that's not 42 million people in my state, for example, 2 million Pennsylvanians are on SNAP compared to a little over 400,000 are on getting those tax credits for now. And so for me, like right now during that shutdown, they were getting neither of those things. They weren't getting their snap. And you know, food is front and center and that's urgent. I can't imagine what that's like if you can't feed yourself or your children. And now it's not a political game. And a lot of these other Democrats now, unfortunately, are turning it into just a political game. And now that's where it's at. And the people that are driving it aren't the kinds of people that aren't representing a very purple place like Pennsylvania is. And now you explain, you know, she can explain to 2 million Pennsylvanians. Well, I think it's like you should just, you know, it's okay not to get your SNAP benefits or if you have a family in the military, they haven't been paid, or I have actual members on my team, they actually have to find a way to loan money to people just because they couldn't even buy food at the grocery store. And now member unions here are now they had to borrow over. It's approaching half a billion dollars from their credit un Just to pay their own bills right now.
- [11:05]
A
So you're not saying you want the same Obamacare tax credit that AOC and others more on the left of your party want. You're just saying the right way to get there is not shutting down the government. What is the right way to get there exactly?
- [11:18]
B
It's like we can have a priority, but it's absolutely the wrong tactic. And now after 40 days, what's your end game? Do you really want to Play chicken with snap benefits for 42 million Americans. I refuse to do that. And the kinds of chaos. Then let's talk about practical things, too. In Philadelphia, out of 22 air traffic controllers, 18 didn't show up. I mean, they haven't been paid. It's like, you know, it's like, I fly 50 weeks a year, and a lot of Americans do, too. Like, do you really want to run? You know, do you want that? I mean, do you really want to make flying, you know, less safe? And that kinds of chaos? And that's important now. And it's like, we have to remember that there are real consequences for tens of millions of Americans and for us getting paid. And now we are many of them. You could even join their email list. And they are monetizing this outrage over this. And that's part of the very cynical part of this ugly game not to.
- [12:28]
A
So a lot of people in your party are saying that Senator Schumer should step down over this. Ro Khanna tweeted this. Senator Schumer is no longer effective and should be replaced. If you can't lead the fight to stop health care premiums from skyrocketing for Americans, what will you fight for? Gavin Newsom, obviously looking toward a run in 2028, said this. Tonight's Senate vote on the federal government shutdown would have been a time for strength. Instead, we saw capitulation and a betrayal of working Americans. The American people need more from their leaders. Does Senator Schumer have your continued support?
- [13:04]
B
Well, I mean, he's our leader, and now I think he's discovering that he can't really kind of buy back in his graces with parts of the base now, you know, even now, he has agreed to devote to shut our government down, and now they're still calling him that he has to go. I don't really spend any time worrying about or thinking about what Governor Newsom thinks. But now for me, it's like, this was the right call and this is the battleground representative here. And you can't troll your way to explain to 2 million Pennsylvanians that they can't count on their SNAP benefits. I refuse to play chicken for people. And I guarantee you they're all monetizing this outrage. And who gets the million dollars? It's not the people not getting their SNAP benefits.
- [13:55]
A
Let's just take the other side of the argument. Most people, because the Republicans control all the branches of government, felt like, you know, if you weren't paying close attention to this and you thought to yourself, why is the government shut down. Well, it's gotta be the Republicans fault. And there's some amazing footage of sort of gonzo journalists going out and interviewing people on the street. And they broadly perceive it as the Republicans fault because again, they control the House, the Senate and the presidency. And so the Democrats, I think, perceive themselves, at least some Democrats as winning the blame game and feeling like we could go on with this because public perception is so very much blaming the Republicans. What do you say to that?
- [14:35]
B
Well, effectively, you know, people, you know, are, effectively, you know, it's a wash in terms of the blame. And for me, it's not a blame game. It's not a game. It's not. It is our American government and it's absolutely wrong. I think one of the best things I've heard come out recently is as one of the new governor elects said, my election is not a green light to continue our shutdown. I mean, it's like, hey, exactly, that is not a green light. It's like, that's my point now. It's like, yes, yes, you know, that was an election and it was strong for the Democratic Party. And now, and she says that's not time to use that and weaponize that to continue this shutdown. And that's exactly where I'm at.
- [15:28]
A
You are an independent, sort of out of step with your party on many things. In this case, you voted to reopen the government 15 times. What was the reaction you got from your colleagues in the Senate?
- [15:40]
B
Well, I mean, you know, when I'm out everywhere in public, whether it's in Pennsylvania and Washington D.C. the appreciation from the Capitol Police, members of the military, people stopping me everywhere, it's like I haven't had a single negative interaction. I think people can understand where we are now. And now someone that does believe in and vote for those kinds of tax credits things, this is the wrong tactic. And what other members of, of, of my caucus are saying to, to me personally, they haven't said anything. But now I have hearing, now there are members going on the floor and essentially criticizing and attacking us. I mean, if you think you should not hold our government hostage, that's hard to describe us as a big tent party if we really want to win elections. And hey, good on you if you represent like a very far left state like Massachusetts or Vermont. But now, you know, that's not, that's not Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania keeps you honest. And now you have to remember that there's both sides and you are held accountable on both sides. And it's very easy to just go straight at. It's all gas, no brakes in circumstances just like that. And that's pretty difficult. But it's also an honor and I'm going to be true and these are my core values, and that's part of the dynamic right now. And to vote 15 times, I mean, that's a strong commitment, saying that this is wrong.
- [17:12]
A
Is it hard for you in moments like this where you break from the majority of your colleagues?
- [17:17]
B
Well, I mean, and another thing is, like, many of them are relieved to, to, to be, you know, to reopen. Honestly, it, it's like they get to have it both ways. You know, they can, they can monetize it, they can fundraise off it, or they can, but, but they know that it's like we, this thing's run its course and there were a lot more people than, than the eight of us that voted for it. But, but now here, here we are and the people that are willing to take it because it's the right thing and, and we need to move on so we can continue to fight for these tax credits. That's what Democrats should have been and we could have been and not even shut our government down. Honestly.
- [18:00]
A
Are there any people in the Senate who confided to you that they secretly agreed with you but for whatever reasons couldn't get it together to vote in the way that you did?
- [18:11]
B
No, they have. They have. And I don't judge them either because they have no electoral incentive to vote to reopen the government if they're representing a very blue state. There's only downside, or that's really your commitment to the truth about you should never shut our government down. I agree it is difficult if you represent very, very left state because the base is demanding these things, and I understand that, but I'm willing to make those kinds of votes. Might put me at odds with part of my base, but I hope they can understand that 42 million Americans depending on SNAP are a big part of this conversation. In fact, they are very much part of our base and the kind of people that we are fighting for. And there's a lot of chaos at the. I can't ever vote for Senator.
- [19:10]
A
Can you tell me who said that to you?
- [19:11]
B
Oh, no, no, I can't. I can't ever betray that kind of thing. And again, I've been in the caucus lunches. I mean, I can't. But what I will say is that there's part of. It's a cynical business. It's like this Dem on Dem kind of Violence. Now, after it, you know, criticizing, you know, going after it, you know, sitting in California and criticizing, you know, our colleagues in the Senate, you know, from, from the kind of states that we would have to win if we want to return back to power. It's been a year since we lost. Now, that's democracy. We don't have to like it, but that's the promise of democracy. That's the, that's the voice of America. And that put us in the minority and that put the House in the minority. And now, of course, Trump is president and here we are and finding a way forward, that's where we are. And the things and parts of the extremism that really help cost us the election.
- [20:18]
A
I think that one way to view the past 40 days and obviously the vote last night, is as a litmus test. There are some people who saw this as a righteous fight to save health care subsidies for a lot of people that rely on it. Then there's another group of, and, and, and view you and the people that chose to vote with the Republicans to reopen the government as essentially turncoats or scabs. That's one way to see it or the other way to see it. Again, it's a litmus test, or Rorschach test is this kind of needless shutdown that was completely unrealistic from the start, that was risking, among other things, the food security of these 42 million Americans. There is another litmus test that happened last week, and that is the litmus test of what voters are looking for in Democrats, sort of who should be inside the tent and who should be on the outs. And I think this was on incredibly powerful display in the election of Zoram Mamdani to become the next mayor of my city, which is New York. You know, exit polls showed that he won a majority of black, Hispanic and Asian voters. He won among voters making between 30 and $300,000 a year. He won voters between 18 and 44 years old. And you could argue he won the future of the party. He built this multiracial, economically diverse coalition. What say you, Senator Fetterman? Is Mamdani an emblem of the future of the party or is he an anomaly?
- [21:50]
B
No, he is the next mayor of New York. And I don't live there. And it has really no impact on my day to day life. So if I will respond that that is not the future of the party, I'm not offended by it, but I disagree with him on many things. And now for me, as a Democrat, it's like my values are, are part of the kinds of ideas that wins battleground states. And if you want to do those things turning to socialism or communism or these other kinds of extreme things, people will remember that, hell, it really comes down to those seven or eight states and the argument's going to be made and the extremism that you might use or pander with now, they're going to be held accountable.
- [22:43]
A
Obviously, you don't live here. You live in my home state of Pennsylvania, which is obviously the best state in the union. But I don't think you would argue with me that he is the politician that is electrifying the left right now. And so I'm just so curious about how you understand his rise. A year ago, no one knew his name. Then he comes to have one of the most important seats, political seats, I think, in American life. I mean, one way to see it is that he won in spite of some of the truly extreme things that he has said about globalize, the intifada or whatever.
- [23:21]
B
The other way I'd like to point out, he's have to walk back from most of it. And now I'm very unapologetically pro police and he's had to apologize and walk a lot of those back. And there's other things that I troubled. And now, you know, I represent Pennsylvania, I don't represent New York City.
- [23:42]
A
Right.
- [23:43]
B
And now also there were both people in that election. One was at one point under indictment and the other one was run out of office from the President on down. So that was a unique circumstance. And now you have a divided city. And now one of my favorite book is the Ungovernable City. And that was about John Lindsay. And it's a. It's a hard job. And it's not about speeches. It's about deliverability and that's what's necessary. And absolutely I hope he's successful. I'm. I would never root against him. But what I'm saying, it's like a lot you have to deliver for a lot of these things. And that's not the future of the Democratic Party. But what I'm fine with that because that's voice of New York City.
- [24:34]
A
But here's what I would say. The Bernie Sanders sort of wing of the Democratic Party, which includes Mamdani, I think we can both fairly say is you could argue doing a better job of speaking to the affordability crisis than the center. And one way to see their rise, the rise of Mamdani and a lot of these other Democratic socialists is because Young people feel like they are speaking directly to the hardships of their lives, that there's inability to buy a home, you know, incredible economic precarity. And you know, they feel totally cut out of the things that were for their parents, a guarantee that if you worked hard, you could get these things that that is no longer the case for a lot of people. And one way of seeing the rise of Mamdani and others, and then I promise I'll move on from Mamdani. He's just, to me a powerful symbol is that he is speaking directly to what people want. So when he says freeze the rent or free childcare or fast and free buses, that is a very clear set of policy prescriptions. Even if you say, and many others say, it's totally implausible. The point is the left has a clear message. What is the center left message on affordability, which representing Pennsylvania is something that your constituents care a lot about?
- [26:01]
B
Well, I'm saying it's like if we think that's the future of the Democratic Party, how many elections and states in very, very competitive seats for the House and for the Senate, how many he shows up in? Is he going to campaign in Georgia? Is he going to campaign in my state? I mean, I guess, I guess we'll see if that's part of the future. Well, then we'll see. But I'm willing to bet that he probably isn't going to be invited to a lot of these very competitive there now too. And free for everything. You know, I'm not really sure that's the prescription, you know, either. Now, for me, New York City is, is a fun house mirror of the American national political thing and it distorts things and you can produce these kinds of skewed outcomes. And now that's the truth. Where, where I am. When you represent the kinds of state that determine who's going to be the next president.
- [26:56]
A
Right. So it wasn't just that Mamdani had a good night on Tuesday. The Democrats had a great night. Abigail Spanberger unseated Republican Glenn Youngkin for governor. Mikey Sherrill won the governorship despite polls showing the state was drifting right. In California, this redistricting measure passed the, I think it was called Prop 50 a year ago. It seemed like the consensus was the country's moving right, the Democrats are on their back foot. That's not necessarily the lesson from Tuesday night. So you know what is to you the overall lesson about the results of last Tuesday as we head into 2026? Because I look at it and think wow. Here's a party that elected a Democratic socialist, very extreme candidate and also, you know, ex intelligent officer moderates. And maybe what the Democratic Party is showing is we can have both. What do you think?
- [27:52]
B
Yeah. Well, let's look at Virginia. Well, Youngkin wasn't up for reelection. You know, Virginia is a one term governor situation. So he wasn't running. Who was running was that she was like an incredibly weak candidate and that was never going anywhere. That's a blue state. And it wasn't a surprise to me in New Jersey. You know, I look at the friends that represent there, whether it's Cory Booker or Andy Kim, both, both very unapologetically progressives as well too. Those are two, those are two blue states. And now in New York, we've discussed that. So for me, the only surprise in the actual race was that golden and May now announced he's not going to run for reelection the day after the election. And that's a guy that was able as a Democrat to hold a plus three Trump district. And now after that election he decides now I'm going to throw, I'm going to call it out. And that's, that was my one true shock. But otherwise, when you have weak candidates and a lot of backlash, that same thing happened in Trump's first administration. So, and that's why it wasn't the green light to just triple down and keep our government shut down.
- [29:04]
A
The other news that happened last week is that Nancy Pelosi announced she wasn't gonna seek reelection. And it got me thinking about just the, what people have called the gerontocracy, how, how old people are that work in Washington. The average age in the Senate, as you probably. Well, what do you think the average age in the Senate is, John?
- [29:24]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm younger than the average, but I don't attack people based on their age. I mean, that's, I, I, I don't disagree with that. I mean, I, I know Chuck Grassley. I mean he's, he's very sharp and he's I think 91 or whatever. And again, that's, you know, like that's democracy. You know, if Iowa wants that, then they get that. I'm not going to declare a war on base someone based on, on their age. But what I will say that there, you know, I respect the state's choices and their vo, their voice and on that, I don't think that's our party's problem. You know, I think we have different problems, but I think that's that. And I think it was entirely appropriate for her to step down. She's run for 40 years and now it's like appropriate to sit down.
- [30:12]
A
I was just trying to say that I think a lot of young people feel that the many of the people that are representing them in Washington are not experiencing the same America that they are. That, you know, people that are baby boomers and even older do not have the same experience of technological revolution and economic insecurity that the people that are my age and younger are experiencing. But let's leave that to the side. I wanna talk for a minute just about the bigger picture of the Democratic Party. If you had to say, I know that Chuck Schumer is technically the leader of the Democratic Party right now, but if you had to name a leader, like the person you feel is best poised to articulate a vision of the Democratic party in the 21st century, would it be Chuck Schumer or would it be somebody else who's the real leader of the Democratic Party?
- [31:07]
B
I'm saying America's Democrats are going to decide who that's gonna be. But I don't go out of my way to attack other Democrats and I try to gonna call balls and strikes. So. And I would like to remind people it's like an 80 year old man won as presidency against a younger, more physically vital, you know, Kamala Harris. So it's really not about age, honestly, and about the experience. It's about what happened in 24. I'd like to remind people, yes, we had a good day on Tuesday, but that doesn't change anything between now and January of 2027. And, and the Republicans are still in the majority and they have an agenda and that's where we are right now. And another question to bring up, if you want to talk about it. I'm not surprised that they're moving for the filibuster. You know, it's like I ran on that. Every single Democrat in the Senate was calling that filibuster's got to go, got to go. And now they've abused the filibuster to the extreme. And it wasn't that long ago they were calling to eliminate the whole thing. And so we really have to calm down and realize that that's an important rule. And I think that would have vindicated people like whether it's Kyrsten Sinema or Joe Manchin. But we wanted it to go a couple years ago and now we love it. And now what's the future of the Democratic. Yes, we have a future and we're going to find out. But in the middle right now, we have to deal with the kinds of backlash that we're living in right now. And this is a four year term. I would bet anything, of course, that we're going to get the House back, but that's still not going to change anything other than you will still going to have the president and it's going to be incredibly difficult to recapture the majority in the Senate. Right now.
- [33:03]
A
It's pretty clear when you look at the Republican bench that probably one of the candidates in 2028 will be JD Vance or Marco Rubio. Is there an equivalent on the Democratic side? If you had to take a bet today,
- [33:17]
B
we're going to have an option and that's how this is going to work out. I'm not gaming out who's on their side on mine. It's 2025. It's really about what's in front of us. And now we still haven't reopened our government. I mean, that's the most important thing.
- [33:38]
A
Okay, let's just talk about you and your unusual positioning in this moment in American political life. Obviously, you've been out of step with most of the people in your party about the shutdown, but that is not at all the only issue where you have sort of stood out. One of them is just on your attitude towards Trump and Trump voters. This is what you said recently to Jesse Waters. One thing I refuse to do as a Democrat, I'm not gonna call you a fascist or a Nazi. I'm not gonna compare anyone to, like Hitler. That's wrong. And if you resort to that thing, you've lost the plot. You also said to him, if you call Trump a fascist, then you're also saying the people who voted for him are fascists. And that's not true. Talk to me about that position. Why is it so important to you not to villainize Trump or Trump voters?
- [34:27]
B
Well, I know, and I love a lot of them. You know, like, I don't live in a bubble, I don't represent a bubble. And I don't curate one of myself online either. It's like, I love to have my views challenged. I like to be around people that have different views that I don't have to necessarily agree on all those things. That's my world politically and personally as well, too. And if you call people with these extreme terms, it's like, they are not Nazis, they're not fascists, then if that's your best argument, you know that people realize that. It's like, obviously they don't really have anything to say other than these kinds of extreme terms. And, and they have cheapened our language because if you go into history or in current examples of real fascists or these kinds of autocracies and those things that's, that's not America. And you know, I think we have to just turn the temperature down significantly. It's like those you, you have to convince them to vote for you, calling them names or, or implying that they want to destroy our democracy. It's like I treat people with respect to, and I don't have that kinds of desire and to use in that kind of extreme rhetoric.
- [35:39]
A
You recently had dinner with the President. Tell me about that.
- [35:44]
B
My dinner was in January and that was before all this happened. But I don't.
- [35:52]
A
What did you guys talk about?
- [35:54]
B
A lot of things. I thought it might be like a 10 minutes high and by kind of a thing. But it was a long conversation about different things and he had a much different Persona than the kinds of person that you see in public. And we both had near death experiences. He was shot in the head in my state and I almost died from a stroke. It's like that changes a person. It definitely changed me. I just had the opportunity to just kind of find out all that is after being shot and you actually had this comeback. What do you want to do? Because you, you have the power to do incredibly, you know, important things. And it was an opportunity to spend time with the next president of the United States. So I don't know why that was controversial, but for some people that was controversial.
- [36:45]
A
Have you maintained the relationship? Do you guys talk?
- [36:48]
B
I mean it's like we don't speak frequently or anything. I agree that I think peace in the Gaza war was important and I think I called that I was very supportive of Israel through the Gaza war for the past two years. And I think in one area, clearly, clearly we agreed with a lot of things for that. And it's like I don't care if it comes from a Democrat or Republican. When you have profound peace, then all you can do, I think is to acknowledge that and to celebrate it honestly. And he has things that we should have a secure border. But I strongly disagree on going after a lot of the migrants that are important part of our economy in agriculture or in entertainment. And so I don't understand those things and I don't understand the vast majority of the tariffs like going after Canada or other kinds of allies. I do think it's entirely appropriate to hold China accountable, but I don't agree on Everything. I disagree on many of them, but I am, as, as a Democrat, I'm not sure why it's controversial for some people to agree to disagree on many things, but agree on some things.
- [38:11]
A
Of all of the things that. So there are a lot of people I know that are like you, who feel, you know, they were extremely turned off by Trump in 2016, maybe would even describe themselves as having some version of Trump derangement syndrome. And now that they've settled in to his second term, are like, yeah, a lot of things about his character really dislike. A lot of his policies we really dislike. But some policies are good and we have to give him credit for them. Perhaps above all, beyond tariffs, beyond deploying the National Guard, I think the thing that has lost that category of people that's sort of open minded to Trump, maybe independence has been these ICE raids that the President has carried out. Your wife lived in this country as an undocumented child. I think I have that right. She moved from Brazil at 7. She was undocumented for 15 years. And now we have a president that is going into schools, daycare facilities, the parking lots of Home Depots to grab. To grab day laborers. How do you.
- [39:16]
B
And that's absolutely wrong. That's absolutely wrong. It's like, I'm a Democrat that we need to secure our border. And if you're going to be honest, you know, that was a disaster under the Biden administration and that was in part why we lost. And I don't target, you know, innocent kids at a school or, or I don't target migrants at Home Depot. So I think it's important. Two things must be true for a better American. Two things must be true. And I think we have to find a way forward. And that's getting more and more difficult to really be fair and realize that just because the other side comes with an idea or creates the kinds of outcomes, you know, I think it's entirely appropriate to acknowledge it, but to, to disagree and oppose them. And your vote, and my values are reflected in my vote as a Democrat that's voted 90% the Democratic line. If Democrats are, are challenged by somebody as a Democrat from the most purple state in the country, then that creates a much different dynamic because that really doesn't describe the Big Ten party that is necessary to win.
- [40:28]
A
So you wouldn't describe Trump or Trump voters as fascists, but how would you describe, what adjectives would you use to describe these ICE raids?
- [40:38]
B
The ICE raids?
- [40:39]
A
Yeah. How would you describe them?
- [40:41]
B
Excessive, brutal, counterproductive. Un American. Yeah.
- [40:47]
A
How Is it affecting your constituents in Pennsylvania?
- [40:52]
B
I think in different ways. You know, raiding a Mexican restaurant and grabbing up, you know, otherwise law abiding people. I don't support those things. But you know, ICE does have, has arrested people that are bad people. I think America can, I hope we can agree you should deport every criminal in our nation. And I fully support that. I, I think a majority of Americans don't want to target otherwise hardworking migrants. I certainly don't as my family came from immigration and my views on immigration haven't changed. You know, we have a core responsibility as our very pro immigration party is to maintain and secure our border. When, you know, you know, western Pennsylvania, you know, at months under the Biden administration, you know, effectively the size of Pittsburgh was showing up at our border, that's not sustainable. That's real chaos too. And now two things have to be true here for immigration.
- [41:53]
A
Why did the Democrats allow the border to get so out of control?
- [41:58]
B
I don't know, but I was truly appalled and alarmed. That shouldn't be controversial. As a Democrat to have these views, I think the vast majority of Americans could agree with that. That's the thing. It's trying to be in the middle of it where you reject kind of the extreme ICE tactics. But it's also why can't we have and secure our border now? I think that's what America wants.
- [42:23]
A
So even as you say all of this, you know, to me you sound like a Democrat and you're pointing out that you vote with the Democrats 90% of the time, many insist that you are some kind of darling of the right. The Pennsylvania Democratic representative Brendan Boyle called you, quote, Trump's favorite Democr Democrat and said you visited Mar a Lago to quote, kiss the ring. What do you say to people like that who claim that you're some kind of agent of the right?
- [42:50]
B
I would say there was an article where his actual voting record was much more in line with a Republican or a Trump side. And that's part of the conversation. The only problem I've ever had with him is that he's a Wawa guy. When I know shoots is the right side. Anyone you probably know Sheets, you, you've experienced Wawa and Sheets, you know, like he's entitled to his views and I am. So again, yeah, he's an Eagles guy. And of course, yeah, I have a problem, you know, if the Steelers, I mean I'm a Steeler guy and a Sheets guy. Otherwise I've never follow it closely. Or, or do you think, do you
- [43:31]
A
Actually think objectively that Sheets is better than Wawa. Like, I know that our side of the state makes us Sheets people, but objectively, do you think Wawa or Sheets is better Objectively?
- [43:42]
B
Well, I mean, yeah, I think so, but I love Wawa too, honestly. I mean, it's like. I mean, it's a great place, too. That's part of one of the last few things. You can agree to disagree. I think that's the west and the east arguments. Now, for me, we need both sides, because I'm grateful to have both. Honestly, when you've been campaigning all across Pennsylvania, you know you can count on things that you all need, whether it's a Wawa or Sheets. But yeah, I represent Western Pennsylvania, for sure.
- [44:17]
A
Sheets people. So, John, when people look at your record and the things that you've been so outspoken about, they see a person who has not been afraid to go against the grain. You've commended Trump for leaving the Iran nuclear deal, for moving the embassy toward Jerusalem in his first term, for the ceasefire in Gaza in the past few weeks, for pushing an agreement between the Japanese owned naipan Steel and U.S. steel. You've stressed, as you have in this conversation, the importance of border security. You've said that the Democrats have botched border security, and people look at that and they say John Fetterman has changed his mind. Because after all, you were a man that ran with Bernie Sanders sort of alongside of you in 2022. You've changed.
- [45:01]
B
That's not true. I never. No, I've been a progressive for a while. You know, like the label left me. It's like I was a regular Democrat and I'm calling balls and strikes.
- [45:12]
A
How has the label left you? Explain. Explain how.
- [45:15]
B
It's like if someone on the left has a problem with a guy that votes as a Democrat representing Pennsylvania to vote 90% of the vote. And now I think there are things that I happen to follow the truth, like whether it's Israel or whether it's now it's wrong to shut our government down. And I'm very pro secure our border, but I'm absolutely opposed the kinds of the ICE tactics that you and I have just discussed. And again, I think Democrat parties should allow these kinds of the diversity in views. And I knew that whether it's devotion to Israel, that would cost me with parts of the base. And now I know the base really wants us to continue to keep our government shut down. That's a difference between not having a clue versus knowing to make those kinds of choices, even if it moves against your own political interests.
- [46:17]
A
Well, the big picture, I think, is to win back the House and the Senate, Democrats have to find common ground with the right and embrace candidates who are more centrist. And yet they seem dedicated to putting up primary challengers against people like you and people like Representative Richie Torres. You know, even Hakeem Jeffries has someone challenging him. What are they misunderstanding?
- [46:44]
B
Oh, I'm saying it's like that's the way democracy works. It's competition of ideas and a vision. And now look at North Carolina. We're lucky enough to have Roy Cooper. Oh, I mean, yes, he's old, too. He's in his 70s. Suddenly people don't have a problem with him because. Yeah, I mean, that's an amazing opportunity to flip that seat. And now that's. That's why age isn't important. I think it's the candidate is. That's going to be the voice of where they represent. I don't tell how people in. In any states there. It's like, I'm talking about Pennsylvania. I don't judge whether it's Richie Torres or anyone. It's like those views because they were the voice of the people that elected him.
- [47:39]
A
Well, some people have speculated that you might go the way of Kyrsten Sinema or Joe Manchin and become an independent.
- [47:48]
B
Oh, there's nothing relevant to that. Joe Manchin represented a plus 40 Republican state. I mean, if anything, Democrats. And both of them, they. Both of them are going to change their parties. And I'm never changing the party.
- [48:02]
A
You're never changing your party?
- [48:04]
B
Oh, no, I'm never changing my party. No. And I'm just having this conversation constantly where it's like, I'm not doing it. It's, you know, like, I'm not gonna grow a great head of hair either. It's just like, that's a fact. And I don't know why people. It's just that that's just where. Where I'm at. And just because I have own independent views, where I'll put country in front of the party, you know, like, that doesn't mean I'm leaving the party.
- [48:34]
A
There's no doubt in people's minds that the Republican Party has been transformed over the course of my adult lifetime, beginning with the Tea Party, and then, of course, culminating in MAGA and the rise of Donald Trump. And it's just. It's been a thoroughly transformed party. It feels to me like the Democrats are experiencing their own version of that transformation now. And, of course, the debate is over where the limits are of the tent, who is allowed in and who is allowed outside of the tent.
- [49:03]
B
What I'm saying, it's like we're not even a year into the Trump presidency yet. The things that we should have learned after that election still front and center of us right now. And you have a Supreme court as a 63 majority, and we have to find a way forward. And that's part of this conversation now. And I would remind. It's like people say, that's why I can't be a Republican. You know, that caucus couldn't sustain Tillis in North Carolina. You know, I mean, so it's like, that's the thing. Or someone like Adam Kinzinger, you know, my friend. I mean, my gosh, he's an incredible patriot, and his political career was hit by just standing for what he believes is right. So if that party can't support people like that, I mean, that's another reason why I'd be a pretty bad Republican, and that's why I'm never gonna take my party. But I'm constantly being asked, you know, or assuming that's part of the play, and that is not the play. And I've said that again and again.
- [50:08]
A
But there are people who are getting elevated in your party that I imagine you wouldn't wanna sit across a dinner table with, let alone share a party with. Let me give you an example. There's this Democratic Senate candidate in Maine, Graham Platner, who has a tattoo on his chest that is a Nazi tattoo. It is a tattoo of Hitler's paramilitary ss. And a lot of people in your party are excusing that. You know, Bernie Sanders said there's more important issues than his decision to get a tattoo while serving in the Marines. Like, are there limits? What do you think about that? For example, what does it say about the Democratic Party that there's more of a question mark over somebody like you than a guy with a Nazi tattoo on his chest?
- [50:57]
B
That's what I'm saying. It's like supporting Israel was controversial for some people, and I think that's entirely appropriate. I think the country in the region that has our values, I think we should absolutely support them. And we can also acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians. But, you know, I don't blame Israel for that. I blame Iran or I blame Hamas for those things. And if my party is going to continue to maybe back away from Israel, I refuse to do those things. And now some of the new candidates now are getting more and more critical of Israel. I refuse to join that and I won't. And that's part of my, my core values. That's the moral clarity for me. That's been very clear from the very beginning. And when I, when I was running in the Senate in 22, I announced in an interview, it's like, hey, I believe in the two state solution, but if the shit hits the fan, I'm going all in on Israel. And that's exactly, that's what I did. And that's, here we are. And the disappointment for me is that it's getting more and more difficult to be a very proud supporter of Israel and the Democratic Party. And that's a, that's a mistake. I mean, hold me accountable. Absolutely. I deserve to be held accountable for those, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my party. And that doesn't mean that other reasonable views should be compatible with being a Democrat from the most purple state in the country.
- [52:22]
A
But are there limits to, are there limits? Like in the same way that the right, right now is in the midst of a debate about whether or not Nick Fuentes, whose views are completely compatible with Nazism.
- [52:35]
B
Yeah, I can't believe this guy's even in conversations, I mean, saying outlandish, terrible, disgusting things.
- [52:42]
A
But is there a Democratic equivalent? In other words, should a guy with a Nazi tattoo or should a candidate who, you know, is sort of saying globalize the intifada might be okay. Should there be an active debate about whether or not they are within the bounds of what is considered reasonable and acceptable?
- [53:00]
B
I agree. And I think people have to walk back a lot of these extreme things. You know, whether it's socialism or communism or other things, they have to back away from those things. And now for me, that's the kinds of extremes that we indulge in a primary or during right now. It's like you're going to be held accountable in a general election if it's a competitive one that's required to win in a state like whether it's Maine or whether it's in my state or in North Carolina, There is no future in any individual race. There is no future from any individual race because all those circumstances are different right now. And for example, when you have the kind of candidates in Virginia, she was never competitive and as I said, she's the kind of a dream candidate Democrats want to run against.
- [53:54]
A
But I guess what I'm asking is there's a gatekeeping function of the party system, right? There are certain people that you would say, or, I mean, and this is the Conversation going on on the right right now is there's nothing conservative about Nick Fuentes. Nick Fuentes should not have a seat at the table on the cultural right. And people are calling on The President and J.D. vance and others to say that explicitly. In other words, to draw a boundary about this is not. This is going too far. This is unacceptable. Is there a similar function that should exist on the left for, let's say, Hasan Piker, you know, who has said America deserved 9 11, but is sort of held up on the progressive left, at least the cultural left, as being a very important figure?
- [54:44]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think there's very few things that I agree with, Mr. Piker, but I would never, ever, ever want something happened to what, like what happened to Charlie Kirk. That's what I'm saying. It's like, you should be entitled to have these different views. And my God, the political violence in our country. You know, like, I'm not offended by those views, but I strongly disagree with them. And that's part of free speech. And like, I. I absolutely believe in free speech. And I think many of those things were repugnant and things I could never sign off on. And that's the point. And now after what happened with, like, say, Charlie Kirk is a reminder. It's like I just let people grieve. I mean, I disagree with Charlie on some of these things, but after somebody was shot and killed in front of people, it's like, give people the opportunity to grieve, you know, just give people the space that they deserve. And now people that I strongly disagree with are like, Mr. Piker, you know, and it's. It's dangerous. That's why I'm not going to call him extreme names. That's not why I'm going to justify this kinds of rhetoric. And if you make the argument that someone is Hitler or someone is a Nazi, then it, you know, the kind of extreme rhetoric makes. It makes it easier for the extreme kinds of solutions to address these circumstances.
- [56:07]
A
You are not Jewish, at least as far as I know.
- [56:10]
B
I'm not.
- [56:11]
A
Feel free to come out here to me right now. But you have been one of the most outspoken. It's beyond Washington, it's beyond politicians. You have been one of the most outspoken people in American life on the issue of antisemitism. Why is this issue so important to you?
- [56:30]
B
Ironically, I did that 23andMe. I'm 97% German and 3% Neanderthal. And it's like, maybe it's ironic that a big German guy from Pennsylvania who's been very, absolutely devoted to Israel. And to experience the kind of anti Semitism in my life. I mean, you know what, the tree of life. I mean, that's where you're from too. Absolutely appalling. And my heart breaks for what the Jewish communities suffered, especially after 10, 7. I've had the honor of meeting, you know, members of the hostages, former people that were kept underground for 500 days. I mean, those are heroes. I've met with widows. Their husbands were lost in the Gaza war, and they have eight children. Raising eight children by their own. That's a hero for, for all of it. So. So for me, it's heartbreaking. And, and that's been. What's so difficult for me is, is like being devotion to Israel becoming increasingly incompatible with being a proud Democrat now, too. And that's put me at odds. And the things that put me at odds have all converged at the same time. You know, the Gaza war, the peace deal, and then we move right into a shutdown. You know, like now Democrats might not be allowed to hold these views. And I'm not changing my party and run the numbers, run the numbers. You would find that I'm a Democrat.
- [58:01]
A
Well, that's a really good question, though. You're saying it's becoming almost impossible to be an outspoken defender of Jews and defender of Israel and to be a proud Democrat. Why, why is that happening? Die. Why has that been allowed to happen?
- [58:20]
B
I mean, I've witnessed it, you know, like for two years I've had protesters showing up at my home, in my office and in public, you know, even with one of my kids. And now social media was an accelerant for anti Semitism and TikTok. You know, like there was this study, 17 to 1 anti Israel for, for every 1 pro Israel 1. And the algorithm has accelerated this. And that's why we've lost the, the younger vote. And now I've. I struggle with the younger voters as well, too, because that's a strong correlation with being very pro Israel, and that's now being increasingly incompatible with parts of. Parts of the base.
- [59:08]
A
Do you see that changing? Is there a way to change those minds right now?
- [59:13]
B
No, I don't. And I have no regrets. You know, I could keel over tomorrow. But one of the things I'm proud of is standing with Israel after the Gaza war. They deserved a committed voice through that terrible war. That's the worst since the Holocaust. And now the cheapening of our language, genocide and using those terms, I mean, that's just categorically that's what occurred in the Gaza war. And having to, that's part of the tragedy now. And the smear and whether it's the blood libel, whatever that is called, it's like Israel never targeted civilians and they never tried to starve or do or committed any kinds of genocide.
- [60:05]
A
It's obvious to me that your position is a political liability to you, but you're unwilling to let go of it. What I'm saying is, like, if you're a member of the Jewish community, it's existential for you. It doesn't matter if you lose your friends, if you hurt your reputation. You're going to use all of your capital on this issue because it feels of existential importance to your safety and the safety of your family. You are not in the Jewish community, and yet you are using, like, so much of your political capital on this issue. I think a lot of people watch that and think, why, like, where does this passion and conviction in him come from?
- [60:50]
B
Well, as a student of history, as I am, you know, history demonstrates that people, when it becomes politically unpopular, people will turn their back on Israel, and I refuse to be one of them. That's always been the right side. And like I said, that would be a high honor of my time here in the Senate thus far. And I'll talk about this being life in the middle. Look what happened on America's campuses. Just rampant, rampant kinds of anti Semitism, putting out tents and terrorizing Jewish students. I've seen that. That's not free speech. I mean, that's unacceptable. And now I support holding those universities accountable. But I don't agree with some of the extreme things that the Trump administration chose to do. Things got out of control, and it's entirely appropriate to create a safe space for Jewish students and not allow them to terrorize things. So for me, that's kind of like life in the middle, and how difficult it is as a Democrat with very strong values that now are becoming increasingly compatible with parts of the base.
- [62:03]
A
After the break, more with John Fetterman. Stay with us. Okay, Senator, let's talk about your new book, Unfettered, which is a very clever title. It is a very, very personal look into your campaign, into the stroke you mentioned earlier, your brush with death, and into your intense battle with depression that I think a lot of people, wherever they fall politically, have been so grateful to, to how candid and vulnerable you've been about something that dogs so many people. Just to remind people, in 2021, you began your campaign for the Senate and on Primary, Election Day, on your way to a campaign event, you had a massive stroke. The same day that you have this massive stroke. You overwhelmingly won the primary, but the rest of that race is characterized by a massive effort at physical recovery, which included relearning auditory processing, your ability to speak. And as a result of this, you struggled, most notably during this very memorable debate against Memonaz. You say you really couldn't hear. The attacks in the press were legion. Tucker Carlson called it a full blown 30 car Amtrak derailment.
- [63:36]
B
Stephen Miller said, I own that that was probably the worst debate in American politics. Absolutely. And I've said even maybe Joe Biden, but I knew it was gonna be rough.
- [63:49]
A
So yours was worse than Biden's versus Trump?
- [63:51]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's like I made a very specific choice. I could have just, I could have ducked like in that cycle, the governor in Arizona, you know, they didn't agree to a debate. But I want America to see, I wanted to see where Pennsylvania was at. And it's like, yeah, this is what happened to me. And it's like that's just where I'm at. But also part of the problems was captioning was brand new at that point and that's never done in American politics as well too. But I'm not afraid to let people know where I was at. And that was a choice that I made and that's part of.
- [64:28]
A
But what was it like to go through an event like that, a massive stroke and then this painful recovery so publicly? Like take us just from on a human level, beyond the politics. Like, what was that like for you?
- [64:46]
B
Oh, well, it's like, you know, if anyone had a conversation with, with a doctor that refuses to even engage and talk about months, you know, like that was my first question was like, is it months? You know, I don't, you know, and that's, I mean, thing. I have three kids and yeah, it's, it's like my dad sat next to me and I can't imagine if I was sitting in a chair next to my son. You know, my sons are my daughter in a bed and it's not sure if they're going to survive. It was difficult, but I've emerged just a profoundly grateful guy and I've lost any taste for calling people names and just trying to find a way forward for that. And depression is a problem for millions and millions of Americans and talking about it is my way of paying it forward. And the difference and what's danger about depression is that it can also be Very fatal. And I confronted that, and I've lost friends to it, and it breaks my heart. And now anyone. Anyone listening? And that part of the book is paying it forward. It's like I'm bang people. Stay in the game. Stay in the game. Don't ever. No, don't. Don't. I was driving. I was driving to the store, and I passed a young kid that was on the bridge, and I stopped him, and I just stopped. I was like, no, no, no, no, you don't have to do this. You don't have to do this. And he was standing there on the rail there. And then he got back down. He started to walk back into town. It's like, I've had conversations with members of Congress. I've had conversations with parents and people that suffer for these things. And paying it forward. That's what the book. I actually dedicated the book to it. And I'm not a professional. I have no training, but I have the experience to been there. And I just beg people, I keep it simple. Stay in this game. Because your path to getting better. And this conversation is a testament to that, because three years ago, after just winning the biggest election in the cycle, that's when depression took hold. And then I became dangerous to myself to make the ultimate mistake.
- [67:27]
A
And at one point, your wife told you you could not live with the family anymore. You had to move back in with your parents. That's how bad the depression was. Right?
- [67:39]
B
Well, I mean, it was incredibly difficult. I mean, I was a terrible. I like Daddy, why aren't we enough? You know, you won. Yeah, I was ashamed. Absolutely. I was ashamed. I couldn't explain why I couldn't get out of bed. And that was part of the darkness of that. After that. And as a U.S. senator, you know, it's. It's counterintuitive. And that. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't matter who you are. These things can happen to you. And you had the young guy from the. The Cowboys, he took his life after. After his first touchdown in the NFL and, you know, like, the tragedy of suicide in our country. And if a US Senator can be in that place, then anyone can be. And I. I just beg people. That's part of this conversation. And I know, like, some things, it's a political. It's not a winner to talk about these things, but it's important to have that conversation, and that's why I'm grateful to be able to have that.
- [68:47]
A
How did you climb out of that hole? I mean, it's an amazing contrast between overcoming a near death experience, winning, being sworn in as this, as a senator, and being under such a cloud of the depression that you didn't really care and you felt empty and worthless. And people need to read the book unfettered to get the deepest sense of how vulnerable you are in expressing it, including suicidal ideation. Tell people that are listening.
- [69:16]
B
I was considering, I was planning it. And now for me, what saved me was my kids. My kids. I was convinced that they didn't want me anymore and how difficult it is. And then I discovered that it's like, no, they, they wanted me back and, and that that was my emergency break, you know, and that like, that's unacceptable. And at that moment I realized I can't be, I can't be the, the example for my kids. And when they have their problems in life, well, the solution was, well, dad did that. So if taking their life, that must be the, the solution. I can't, I can't be that legacy for my children that I left that way. And then that I, that was almost spontaneously was kind of cured from it. I was so grateful for that. And having this conversation made it so critical. And when I read about it or when I discover that like I had a friend just six weeks ago, I discovered that he took his life and left grandkids there. It's like, I guarantee they would take it back if they could, but suicide is the one decision that you can't come back from. And I beg people that get help. And if you don't have the ability to get formal help, promise yourself I'm going to stay in this and things will turn around or you can discover that that's the wrong choice.
- [70:49]
A
I want to ask you a sort of sensitive question, which is one of the discussions that has obviously happened in the aftermath of Joe Biden's candidacy and then his decision to drop out because he wasn't fit to serve. And then obviously you had the 107 day candidacy of Kamala Harris. We know how that went. Is that he really wasn't up to do it. And some people look at you and
- [71:17]
B
say
- [71:19]
A
you were unable to run and therefore how do we know that you're able to serve? What do you say to those people?
- [71:26]
B
Well, I mean, people, we are not having that conversation. I'm part of the Democratic caucus and I have my very own views. For me, yeah, it's like the circumstances with Joe Biden. For me, it's like he had a terrible debate and I did too. And for me, that's Put me at odds with my caucus. I'm like, hey, if you blast out Joe Biden, then you get what people you're demanding, then you're accountable for the outcome. And that's how things ended up there. So now, yes, Joe is rough, but he's the one guy that won before with Trump, and that's not a great situation for us, but that's the choice that's in front of us. Make that choice, you get what you want and you have to own the outcome.
- [72:23]
A
I have been lucky to never have a near death experience. But earlier in this conversation, you referenced the commonality that you found with the President because he was almost killed on that stage in Butler, Pennsylvania. And obviously you almost died from this massive stroke. And I can't imagine that a near death experience wouldn't fundamentally transform a person. And the way that you view yourself in the world, how. How has it changed you?
- [72:54]
B
Oh, my gosh. I mean, it's. I don't find myself getting depressed or sad. It's like the best thing I've ever described was Warren Zevon. And that just came back after he was just inducted. It's like, enjoy every sandwich. And now I get to hug my kids. And then shortly after I got out of Walter Reed, my father collapsed in the kitchen and he was on the ventilator for I think a month. And I had to confront his death. And now he's back. He's back and we turn to each other. It's like we're both two guys that shouldn't be alive. And I'm just grateful. I mean, I've emerged from all of it, all of the pain and the kinds of the cruelty that American politics are. I've just emerged as a grateful person, truly grateful. And I celebrate the simple things and being able to be there. And thankfully, you never experienced it. And I wouldn't want that for anyone. But if given that's happened to me, it's been a gift. I describe it as like a dark gift that it, you know, so paying it forward is. That comes from a place of gratitude, to be where I'm at. And as things get more and more polarizing, I've lost the taste to kind of call people names and to, to. It's. For me, I just want to find a way forward. And I don't know if it's the winning lane, but it is my lane. And that's what I've chosen to do proudly, to be in that lane. And we have to find a way forward. We have forgotten that we need Each other. We need each other. And now it's getting more and more extreme. And I don't see a way, I really honestly don't know. And we're not even a year into the Trump administration. Well, what's it going to be? Six months later, a year later, or from now, that kinds of thing. So I'm not going to engage in the kinds of extremism or call these kinds of names. And if that's what the market decides that that's not it, then I'm okay with that as well, too. I'll be a Democrat that have very committed, committed to Israel. And I believe that it's wrong to use our government as hostage and to play chicken with 42 million Americans on their ability to feed themselves or their family. And that shouldn't be controversial as a
- [75:37]
A
Democrat has the pressure on, whether it's on Israel or this government shutdown or any of the other number of issues where you have been a sort of solo dissident in certain ways. Does that pressure ever get to you?
- [75:57]
B
No, no. It's like nothing can happen or be said to me compared to having a conversation with a doctor that refuses to use terms like month. I mean, that's sobering. I know it's cliche. It's like, oh, you know, you reflect on your mortality. It's like, well, and your mortality is front and center and. Yeah, I mean, you know, when I was unconscious after the stroke, I didn't have like the light or the harps or anything, but I became aware of. It's like I'm alone here and now I think I might be leaving. And then I was just brought back. That was my first memory was like, I woke up and the doctor showed, hey, we got this. We got this. And it was a scan of the clot that almost killed me. And it's just like, I mean, having a conversation with yourself, saying, yes, I think I'm leaving and I may not see my family or anymore again, again. It wasn't harps and lights and anything. It was just kind of alone and preparation that you're leaving.
- [77:12]
A
Did it change your relationship to God or spirituality?
- [77:18]
B
No, no, it's like, it's. It's like, you know, like I said, I'm just, just a grateful guy. You know, I don't have any scores to settle. I don't have any, any bitterness or about anything. You know, every day was gravy for that. And I wish things were less polarizing as it is now. But I hope we can agree that it's wrong to take yourself out of the game. And that's conversation. And depression doesn't check if you're a Republican or Democrat or you're rural or you're urban. And that's a conversation that might be a political loser, but that's the battle that picked me.
- [78:06]
A
Senator John Fetterman of the great state of Pennsylvania, which will always be my home state. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [78:13]
B
Well, thank you for having me, and congratulations on your circumstance. And, yeah, he's like, I'm so grateful. And that's a testament. Three years ago. Three years ago, I could not get out of bed, and now I'm able to have national conversations. And to be the tip of the spear on being pro Israel or being the kind of guy thinking that it's wrong to shut our government down, we can agree to disagree. But that's a testament, and that's why I beg people to stay in the game.
- [78:48]
A
Thank you so, so much.
- [78:51]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [78:58]
A
Thanks for listening. If you like this conversation, if you didn't like it, if you used to like John Fetterman and now you don't, or you used to really dislike John Fetterman and now you do, that's the point. Share this conversation with your friends and family and use it to have an honest conversation of your own. Last but not least, if you want to support the world work that we do here on Honestly, there's just one way to do it. It's by supporting the Free Press. You do that by going to the Free Press's website@vfp.com and becoming a paid subscriber today for the cost of an expensive latte. It's only like $10. We think it's worth it. Thanks so much and I'll see you next time.