Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (2:01)

Welcome or welcome back to House of Mar A Wave original. Remove your cloak. You can have whatever is in the cupboard. The WI fi password today is nightmare. All caps. You should know we have a few house rules.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (2:12)

Girls are magic. Reading is hot and so are you.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (2:14)

Make sure to watch and subscribe on YouTube because I'm wearing sunglasses today.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (2:18)

She's looking real cool sunglasses.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (2:19)

I'm like looking like a cool sunglass girl.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (2:21)

Future's so bright. She needs to.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (2:23)

I feel performative in a way in it. I'm going to stick with it this whole time. If you are watching this, we are in Milan right now at the Olympics. Hopefully we are just having the most fun and we're just like finding Love. Finding love.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (2:35)

It was just Valentine's Day. Hopefully I'm smooching right as this episode comes out. Future me, you better be smooching in Milan right now. Perfect.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (2:44)

Perfect.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (2:44)

Well, we have an amazing guest today.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (2:46)

Our fourth Mars sister today is an author whose hauntingly beautiful stories feel like they've been unearthed from an ancient library. She writes with a depth and atmosphere that has captivated millions, creating worlds that are as beautiful as are dangerous. She's the number one New York Times best selling author of the Shepherd King series, as well as the Stone Water Kingdom series. But more than that, she's an artist who speaks with incredible passion and honesty about the writing process, the courage it takes to be bad at something on the way to being good, and the magic of storytelling. We are so honored to have her. Yay. Please welcome to the family. Rachel Gillis.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (3:19)

Y.

Rachel Gillig (3:21)

Thank you. Also, that's so great bio. I did think you were gonna say at first that I'm hauntingly beautiful. That's what I thought too. I like you guys stuff.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (3:29)

Let me take it again. Our hauntingly beautiful guest.

Rachel Gillig (3:33)

No, no, I appreciate that. I'm really, really happy to be here. And I have to start by asking, how did you guys hear about One Dark Window? Because I need to find that person who told you and give them a kiss on the lips.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (3:45)

Hell yeah. Yeah, I have had it. I actually bought it on like Kindle. It's been on my Kindle for a while. Cause I think I just saw it in, you know, the book talks fear. People would talk about it and I'd be like, that one is actually. And like when people talked about it, they would be like, this is the one. Like, they had an energy about it that I was like, okay, I gotta read that one. And then it's been there. And when we got to pick our first book club, they sent us a list of books and it was on there and I was like, that's the one we're doing. That one needs to do it. So.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (4:11)

And I don't like, want to, like, brag or anything, but I've also read your other book series this past summer. Did you?

Rachel Gillig (4:17)

The Stonewater, the Night in the Moth.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (4:19)

Yes, I read that. And I don't remember how I heard about that, but I read it in World. I was reading that because I was.

Rachel Gillig (4:25)

Gonna wreck to you because Sybil is a muscle mommy and. Yeah. And you love that in this room.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (4:33)

We love that in this room.

Rachel Gillig (4:34)

And you are that. And I also brought some signed editions for you.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (4:38)

Did you?

Rachel Gillig (4:39)

I did I did. Oh my gosh.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (4:40)

Exciting. I'm selling them.

Rachel Gillig (4:42)

Like I didn't know where your guys. I mean I know that you like to read and I watched your with. With Emily Henry. It was so delightful and all those things. But yeah, I was like, oh wait, they read mine. Oh my gosh.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (4:55)

Oh, I'd be reading it.

Rachel Gillig (4:55)

Yes. I was really excited to hear about it.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (4:56)

I read one dark window actually in 2022 when it came out.

Rachel Gillig (4:59)

Did you really?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (5:00)

Yeah, I was at Barnes Noble during their hardcover sales and I picked. It was like you get two and then one's 50% off. And I picked up yours and one other and I only read yours.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (5:09)

I never read the other one.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (5:11)

And I loved it, but it's been years. And I remembered when we went into it, I was like, there's something about cards, guys. And this reread. I loved it so much. And I was like, I should have reread this a while ago.

Rachel Gillig (5:21)

Thank you. I mean that's. It is. It is something about cards.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (5:25)

It's a little something.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (5:26)

There's a little something about cards in this one.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (5:28)

I did wake up the other morning when you were going to be a confirmed guest and I was like, what a perfectly normal reading experience. Reading a book, absolutely loving it. And then talking to the author.

Rachel Gillig (5:36)

I did.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (5:37)

What a normal thing to do. What a perfectly casual whatever thing.

Rachel Gillig (5:41)

Yeah, no, I love it. I love that. Obviously, I mean it happened before, but especially during the pandemic there was an explosion. More so because people were reading more, people were discussing on the Internet more the conception of booktok. And so now that it's all happened and especially romantasy and fantasy and I'm seeing like my favorite authors more out in the world too. I mean there was. They're being discussed but then they go on podcasts too and I get to hear more. I just, I like hearing more about it. I'm first and foremost a reader as well. So like I just love that authors are out there doing these fun things.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (6:23)

Conversations I want to have and to hear. That's so cool. Cause normally it's this one sided affair you have basically with this art and yeah, we get to know the people.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (6:31)

I say we head into the group chat which is where we just go on with talk about what's going on online and whatnot. And we have. John, I want to talk to you.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (6:38)

About something that we've been discussing recently of when you go into a bookstore, sci fi and fantasy is often on the same shelf.

Rachel Gillig (6:45)

Yeah.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (6:45)

And it is a pet peeve of mine because I'm not a big sci fi girl. And so I'm like, just put it on another shelf. So I don't like how they're lumped together. I was wondering how you feel about that.

Rachel Gillig (6:55)

No. Hate to sci fi. Where does the onus fall? Does it fall on the publisher to be like, this isn't fantasy. This is just science fiction? Does it fall to the poor bookseller who's just like, I don't know what it is. Where do I shelf it? Sometimes one dark window. Even when it first came out. This isn't about sci fi, but it was shelved on. And this happens to a lot of female fantasy writers and young adult. And I'm like, that's interesting. I love young adult. But I would consider this has adult content.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (7:24)

Yes.

Rachel Gillig (7:25)

And I will. It's by an adult publisher. There are hard lines, which is like, do I write children's fiction or not in publishing? And I certainly don't. And so at the end of the day, it is marketing and they want to plop it all together. I'm just glad I'm not the person who has to make that delineation, because I don't know. But the more you read, the more you decide what you like as well. And like you, I tend to wander into the fantasy section far more often.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (7:51)

I tend to stick there. So that's why I'm like, put the shelves next to each other, but let's just separate it a bit.

Rachel Gillig (7:57)

Yeah, interesting. I see them on romance shelves too, in this romantasy space. I'm like, I can't find that book. They're like, it's in romance. I'm like, oh, oh, interesting.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (8:05)

Okay.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (8:05)

There's also a whole world and plot, but yep, there is.

Rachel Gillig (8:07)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (8:09)

I'm reading a book right now. Just started it. And the language used is very much almost too modern of language. It's supposed to be vampires and there's kingdoms. And then she's saying like, shit, fuck. And then he calls it his boxers. And I was like, I don't believe this. Boxers in your book. You call it a gherkin or something. And I was like, you know what? Hey, I don't know what that is, but yeah, that's. But that keeps you in it.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (8:31)

There's tempts.

Rachel Gillig (8:33)

So that pulls me out of the story the same way. Like it has to do with men's pants in particular.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (8:37)

Right?

Rachel Gillig (8:38)

I'm like, the word trouser feels so gross. But also I'm like, I can't Call him his pants. Pants, right. Yeah.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (8:45)

They wouldn't call it that back then.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (8:46)

They really wouldn't.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (8:48)

It's really been taking me out of the story.

Rachel Gillig (8:50)

His leathers. His leathers.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (8:52)

That's a good one.

Rachel Gillig (8:53)

I have to use generalizations.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (8:55)

We just made a big video. We made a video where we talked about our lady parts as they do in fantasy books. Like, all the ways to do it. And we made a little compilation. Like, the bundle of nerves, the feminine petals. Our feminine petals, our sheaths, her core. We have to go to the gynecologist to get our core core checked out.

Rachel Gillig (9:15)

How did you guys. So you have. You go on, like, which ones you like, which ones you don't.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (9:19)

We just think the ones that are the wildest. You would never call it, like, oh, my feminine petals.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (9:24)

The wet folds. I said it's like my folds. Or I called it my sunken silken folds.

Rachel Gillig (9:29)

It's a nice fabric, I guess.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (9:31)

Do you have anything else for us?

Rachel Gillig (9:33)

I. I struggle. I. I do. Writing a sex scene is like writing an action scene. You do want to be specific enough. But going back to what you're saying about, like, anachronistic language, like, sometimes it certainly doesn't fit the tone of the story or just at least my level of prose. Like, I. I don't want to get too purpley about it, but I also be like, this is what's happening. This is what's going on. It's not just like a haze of them, like, rubbing together. And so I try to be purposeful with my language. But, yes, there are a lot out there that do give me thick.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (10:11)

What did you use?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (10:12)

So I highlighted it in one dark window. Well, I liked it because I was like, if we make another one, we need to somehow find a way to do this where it was. I mean, to everyone who is listening, I hope you read along with the Tall Tales Book Club Book one, which was one dark window, got a little spicy tasteful. Spicy tasteful. Spicy tasteful. And it was. He kissed below my skirts.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (10:32)

Okay, okay.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (10:33)

I was like, write that down. Write that down.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (10:34)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (10:36)

Okay, good.

Rachel Gillig (10:36)

I was. I didn't want to be a hypocrite right now. I'm like, if I used wet folds, I gotta need to walk myself out right now. Okay, Okay.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (10:45)

I like it.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (10:46)

I loved it.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (10:47)

I thought it was beautiful. We know what you mean. You're not getting too crazy with it.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (10:51)

Well, what I liked a lot in your scenes, too, is because we read.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (10:54)

From all the way over there where.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (10:56)

Everything'S really first page.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (10:58)

I do too.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (11:00)

Like, I've read somewhere, it's not this one I thought was a really kind of more towards less, but the scenes, and maybe there's more than one. I don't know. The scenes that they did out I thought was very tastefully done, but not too much because, like, I think you read a book sometimes for the sex scenes, but this one, I like that it was about the crazy story. And then we had that and they were like, oh, okay, back to it. How are we going to solve this?

Rachel Gillig (11:25)

I would say, which is, again, this will fall into the semantics of Romantasy, where some people are like, it has to be 50 50. It's Bubba to be a romance. My books are marketed as Romantasy. I would argue, though, if you took the sex scenes out or you made the love interest a different relationship, you made them platonic, you made whatever, the story would still exist.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (11:48)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (11:48)

And sometimes the point of a romance book is about the relationship, but mine is a romance within a broader story, I would say so. Thank you. Yeah. It was always more about, they're plot driven, they're, there's an adventure, there's a something's going on.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (12:06)

Do you think it's fair that your book gets called Romantasy?

Rachel Gillig (12:11)

I'm not too precious about it. I again, just being in this job, you do understand kind of the dichotomy between what you artistically are trying to represent versus the business side of it, the marketing side of it. Obviously, Romantasy is also very large right now. And so anything that can be described as that is going to get the attention of a large audience. I think it's a long conversation. The same way with how One Dark Window was put in Young Adult. A lot of it comes from the fact that women are writing these stories. There's a lot of male written fantasy where there's sex scenes and there's romance is a. I'm thinking of some examples. I was like, is it romantic? I don't know, but there's certainly sexual content in it. And no one's like, ooh, let's put that in. Romantic.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (13:00)

Romantic. I find if it's a. A book authored by a woman and there's one scene is all of a sudden a romance.

Rachel Gillig (13:07)

I feel very lucky in my readership in that I think they enjoy both. I haven't had someone come up to me in person. I mean, I'm sure it exists on the Internet all the time, but no one's like, you know what? I just didn't like that. I didn't like that it was called Romantasy and then there wasn't more romance.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (13:25)

And I stopped reading.

Rachel Gillig (13:26)

Yeah, they stopped reading the street and there was just like, shame.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (13:29)

How dare you.

Rachel Gillig (13:30)

So, ah, it's interesting, though.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (13:33)

How would you classify the Stonewater Kingdom series?

Rachel Gillig (13:35)

I would say it's the same. Yeah.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (13:37)

I mean, not to speak for her, but. Oh, you guys haven't read that? I read that. So you guys did it, do the work on it?

Rachel Gillig (13:44)

No, it's the same. You take the romance out or make them a different relationship and the story exists. Great. Might be a little shorter.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (13:51)

Cool.

Rachel Gillig (13:51)

But I mean, I do. I mean, I love those scenes.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (13:54)

Do you enjoy writing them?

Rachel Gillig (13:55)

Oh, yeah, I love them. I mean, that's what I love. I grew up. We were talking about young adult fiction. Like, I grew up on that, where there wasn't explicit sex. But that's what made it so fun. There was the yearning, the. The tension, the banter, things like that. Like, I love it. I love writing the dynamic. So.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (14:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What makes a great scene? Like, what are you looking for when you're reading to then bring into your.

Rachel Gillig (14:16)

Own writing in regards to romance or.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (14:17)

Just into, yeah, romantic, I guess, encounter.

Rachel Gillig (14:19)

They have to be like, it's not about. You can write about sex without ever even writing about sex. I find you can write about body language and, you know, where the character is looking. But also just like, they need to have an existing tension. So we'll use the example one Dark Window, since we're here to discuss that. Between Raven and Elspeth, I think I wanted them. It's them coming from different lived experiences, maybe even different worldviews. But then. And the tension is there from that. It's not just because he thinks she's hot and she thinks he's got a nice nose or anything like that. But no, there has to be built in tension that doesn't have to do with sexual. And ultimately the sex comes by them realizing, like, they have more in common and things like that. Like, they're getting to know each other and the desire builds from that. And I like writing banter. I like when they make fun of one another. I like writing. I think it's more scathing in the Stonewater Kingdom, but where they're mean to each other sometimes, as Ilona would know, I would know.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (15:22)

You guys probably don't know. Speaking of banter, while we are in the group chat, do you have like a group chat with your friends? Do you have a group chat with, like, other authors? Is. Do you have a fun name for it.

Rachel Gillig (15:31)

No, I'm a terrible texter.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (15:33)

Okay.

Rachel Gillig (15:33)

I'm a terrible human. I. I have. I'm extremely introverted. I have. And I don't like when I write too many voices beside, like, I'm talking to myself. It's a mess. Like, I go through a lot of things myself, but when it comes to, like, who I'm actually discussing work with, it's my agent, my editor, and I have my critique partner who's just my best friend. Her name's Kayleigh Cassidy. She also has a book out called in the Veins of the Droney.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (16:05)

Oh, my goodness.

Rachel Gillig (16:05)

Romantasy as well. But I don't like to talk to people about things in progress. I'll talk to other authors, other people, all my friends, about other books we're enjoying, but about my own. No. I'm also mortified of a group chat because I just ghost. Like, I'm. I'm like, that person.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (16:27)

You're the lurker.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (16:27)

You're kind of like.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (16:28)

You're lurking. Right.

Rachel Gillig (16:29)

I. I do observe. And I'm just like, yeah, judging. But, yeah. I don't know. I don't do it. I tend to feel overwhelmed by it. It's okay. I'm scared when people try to talk to me too much.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (16:40)

I hear that I have to put, like, on my to do list. Respond to all text messages.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (16:45)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (16:46)

Yeah. Because I'll be fine. And then people will get, like, a thousand in a day from you, and.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (16:49)

It'S boing, boing, boom, boom. And then the worst part is they respond.

Rachel Gillig (16:52)

I know. And they don't give me, like, for.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (16:55)

You to respond, because it took me.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (16:57)

Because once I get done that, I'm like, yes, I'm done. And then they text me back. I'm like, no, that's not how this works.

Rachel Gillig (17:01)

But I'm telling you for everything. Yeah.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (17:03)

Because I get a text and I'll read it in my head. I'll be like, okay, great. And I'll move. You know, I did it, but I need to. I got to be better.

Rachel Gillig (17:09)

Yeah. Or in my head, I'm like, I have an answer for that, and that constitutes an answer to me somehow. And then I realize I haven't responded in a long time.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (17:16)

Now I'm the asshole. Okay.

Rachel Gillig (17:19)

I've. I've settled in that position in life. So you're cool with that? Yes, I am.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (17:24)

I've realized my issue is I read my texts right when I wake up, when I'm half asleep. And so sometimes I will answer them half asleep or sometimes like I'll just forget it. I'll read it and forget it. And someone's like, but I texted you and I was like, you did? I have no unread text on my phone.

Rachel Gillig (17:38)

Did you sleep texted because of that?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (17:41)

No.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (17:41)

But recently I did get in a little bit of trouble. I woke up from a text from Olivia saying what time can we have this call before your flight? And I was like anytime before 1:30. Then the call's at 1. Or is that like ended at 1? And I was like, oh, actually I would have needed to leave an hour before to catch my flight.

Rachel Gillig (17:59)

Oh no, yeah, you're fine. We already both taking off at that time.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (18:02)

But it ended up working out. It was the first time I ever just like walked right onto the plane. Didn't even have to wait really.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (18:08)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (18:15)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (18:21)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (18:30)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (18:34)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (18:40)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (18:45)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (18:51)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (18:59)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (19:26)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (19:31)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (19:37)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (19:41)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (19:47)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (19:53)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (20:03)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (20:10)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (20:17)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (20:25)

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Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (20:34)

You realized you were the son of a president?

Rachel Gillig (20:35)

I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before.

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (20:41)

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Rachel Gillig (20:46)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (20:51)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (21:02)

Should we spin over into some tea time?

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (21:05)

I have a lot of thoughts on our book, so I want to learn more.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (21:08)

Let's get into it. Okay, team, the table is set, the drinks are poured, and the mics are hot. Let's get into tea time.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (21:14)

Rachel, I just want to know what's up with you and bad boys.

Rachel Gillig (21:17)

Okay?

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (21:18)

Where'd this come from?

Rachel Gillig (21:20)

Are they bad or are. Did they have the appearance of being bad boys, but they're really like soft, gooey.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (21:26)

Okay.

Rachel Gillig (21:27)

I don't. I mean, it's relative, right? Like some you can talk about a bad boy in a book and you. And you read it and you're like, yeah, that's a toxic individual. Right?

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (21:36)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (21:36)

I try to skew towards. They have all the appearance of it and then actually they're misunderstood. They actually are like, kind. They love their families, they love their siblings.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (21:46)

Love their families.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (21:47)

Love their families.

Rachel Gillig (21:48)

I find if you want to build off of the trope, which I almost always do on purpose or just because I love it, which is of the found family. You can't have an actual asshole as your main male character.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (22:00)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (22:01)

The love interest can't be an asshole. Some of his, like, you know, friends or like, Raven, you and that. Everyone's like, oh, he doesn't even smile. But, like, they love him because he's. He's actually like a good brother. Like, he loves his. Like, he's very loyal.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (22:14)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (22:15)

They tend to have to build up a rougher exterior because of whatever situation they're in.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (22:19)

Absolutely.

Rachel Gillig (22:19)

And I mean, I consider that to be kind of a universal thing sometimes. We all kind of have our guard up on that. A lot of stuff.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (22:27)

That's what I loved about, I think Raven specifically is that he's got this tough exterior. He's like, he's driven. He loves his family. He seems like the asshole. And then anything to do with her, I'm like, walk him like a dog, bitch.

Rachel Gillig (22:38)

Yeah, super. I had a note in my very early edits which I thought was so funny. And I still think about it now, which is when she was. It was before Raven and Elspeth. This is like, round one. I hadn't added the, like, fake courting part yet. And my editor's like, you know, this would be great. And the comment that made me laugh was like, yeah, they could just like, his family proposes the idea. It's basically what happened in the book. But the family proposes the idea. And Raven being a little awkward loser who's never had a girlfriend is like, okay. I was like, is that how he reads to you? That is. He's just like, okay, I guess.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (23:15)

Okay, fine.

Rachel Gillig (23:17)

And I thought that was so funny. So now when I think back on Raven and all that all started, like, yeah, he has this tough exterior, but he's like, never had a girlfriend. I think it's so funny.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (23:26)

Absolutely.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (23:27)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (23:28)

He's a little awkward.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (23:29)

I love how you know these characters so deeply. Like these things about, like, knowing they don't have a girlfriend and that actually this is how he would have responded to that. I think that's. You have to intimately know the personality types of all of them.

Rachel Gillig (23:42)

Yeah. You know, stuff that sometimes it'll never even be articulated on the page. It's inferred or something like that. You have to, like, make all these behind the scenes, at least for me, behind the scenes decision so that I can.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (23:55)

To know it and then be able to. Yeah, exactly. Actually, when you write about them, you Know all of that and it goes into it. Is that kind of the process?

Rachel Gillig (24:01)

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not someone who is a big. There's like the school of plotting and the school of pantsing.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (24:09)

Yeah.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (24:10)

You know what I mean?

Rachel Gillig (24:10)

And I am not a plotter, really. I kind of like. I'll see where it goes. I tend to get in trouble doing that. But when it comes to characters, I do tend to. That is the one part that I will plot before I start writing a story. I tend to work out, obviously, name appearance, the superficial aspects, but also kind of like worldview, what they're coming up against, where they begin, where I want them to end in their journey as internal. Like the internalness of them. But everything that happens in the plot, we'll see.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (24:41)

Plotting and what was it?

Rachel Gillig (24:42)

And pants sting and pantsing.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (24:44)

What is pants ding.

Rachel Gillig (24:45)

Oh, you fly by the seat of your pants. Okay, so someone like me, I tend to. Sorry, sorry. It's one of those things, like in publishing or when you talk to another writer, they'll be like, yeah, I know what that is. But I forget when I say. When I say this, you know, in general.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (24:59)

This morning, pants sting.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (25:01)

Pants sting all morning.

Rachel Gillig (25:02)

Yes. I tend to be more flexible. When I write an outline, I get mad at myself because I'm like, you've boxed yourself in. And, you know, I'm railing against myself here, but there are authors who, like, chapter by chapter, they know exactly what's gonna happen before they even start writing. And myself, things change as you go. I tend to be a little more flexible. I'm a little more chaotic about it. So I have what I call a flashlight theory where I can see it far enough ahead of where the story's going, and then everything else we'll see. I tend to know beginning, middle, end, and that's fun. The characters, yes. Behind the scenes, I do work them out a little more.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (25:42)

The ideas behind your book sometimes are so. Something I've never read before. Like, even the Knight and the Moth, I was reading, I was like, okay, interesting.

Rachel Gillig (25:52)

Okay, thank you.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (25:53)

All right. It's just very different. Even this idea in one dark window of cards and the cards holding magic and then like a nightmare inside the head. I thought I was like, okay. I haven't actually read. Read that because we get the. The normal of, like, you know, vampires and magic, which I love. But I thought this idea of cards, it took me a minute to kind of figure it out.

Rachel Gillig (26:12)

Yeah, there's a lot. They all have different rules. I hear that it. Honestly, people. I take I take it as flattery and a compliment that people ask me the most, probably, about my magic systems, which is really funny because I. I write them. I'm like, I will come up with the most unique thing. No, it comes from me just liking what I call, like, hard magic systems. So it's like tangible objects. Because as a fantasy reader growing up, sometimes I am confused by more cerebral or more, like, intangible. Like, okay, they have the power. Even just something like elemental power where, you know, lightning and you're exploded. But I'm like, well, how. How does it cost? Are they clenching their butthole while that's going? You know what I mean? Like, what is making it go and.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (27:04)

What are the limits?

Rachel Gillig (27:06)

I just like the rules. So that's how that all came to be. And then, like, one dark window, too. I like to kind of juxtapose it. There's something called the infection where there's magic that is completely out of control, not measured. It's random. So I use, like, a tangible hard magic system with finite. Like, finite and has set rules versus the opposite. But, yeah, I think it. Honestly. And with the Stonewater Kingdom, they're objects as well. I think it just honestly comes from me liking magical objects.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (27:39)

And what got you into the magical abstract?

Rachel Gillig (27:41)

Just a little freak, I guess.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (27:43)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (27:45)

What did give me into. Honestly, it's just, like, the need to control the thing. I don't know. Like, I grew up with some, like, classic fantasy.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (27:53)

Like, so, like, classic folklore, kind of.

Rachel Gillig (27:55)

Yeah. And like, Tolkien and all the things. I just. I. I like the wizard and his staff. And, like. I don't know. I don't really know. I think I. Honestly, it just comes from. I like the atmosphere it brings. I like that it's fun to explore the characters, because how they use the object will vary from character to character. You can explore a lot with that. I just feel like there's room to play. There's always room to play in fantasy. And I think, honestly, that's why I lean heavily into it, because I can do whatever I want.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (28:32)

Are you precious about objects in, like, your writing space or just in your life?

Rachel Gillig (28:36)

Like, do I have my own magical objects?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (28:38)

Yeah. Or something that you hold dear?

Rachel Gillig (28:41)

That's a good question.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (28:42)

Like, did you feel emotions for inanimate objects growing up?

Rachel Gillig (28:45)

I feel emotions for inanimate objects now. Like, sometimes I don't. Like, I'll go into a thrift store and be like, it needs a home.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (28:52)

Right, right, right, right there.

Rachel Gillig (28:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am. I'm precious about a Lot of things. When it comes to, like, a lot of. I think I'm getting even more precious as I get older about it. I want to own my clothes long enough that they feel like a part of me. I want to own things for a long time. When I was younger and kind of establishing style or establishing anything, the things that you purchase. I feel like I go through a rotation. But as I get older, I don't want to be just buying and donating in anything anymore. I kind of want to, I don't know, capsule wardrobe. Yeah. Or just, like, everything feels lived in.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (29:32)

Yes.

Rachel Gillig (29:32)

I really like that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (29:34)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (29:35)

So I would say, yes, I'm precious about a lot. I was one of those kids or had to rotate the stuffies and the beanie babies because I didn't want anyone to feel left out.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (29:44)

Right, right.

Rachel Gillig (29:46)

Yeah.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (29:46)

No, that's beautiful. That's beautiful.

Rachel Gillig (29:49)

That's precious. Yeah. No, it is. It's something.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (29:52)

Who are some of your favorite, I guess, like, maybe misunderstood characters, sexy villains, Anything like that?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (29:59)

God.

Rachel Gillig (30:00)

In literature. Across the board.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (30:03)

Literature, or I'm gonna say it. Movies, tv, whatever.

Rachel Gillig (30:06)

I'm really enjoying. I mean, it's a completely different adaptation, but I love Guillermo del Toro, and the recent adaptation of Frankenstein was beautiful to watch. I don't know how I felt about Jacob Elordi, but then he was. He was a monster.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (30:22)

He was a monster.

Rachel Gillig (30:23)

The deep, like, voice of it all. To me, there's a disconnect between the book and that, but I did appreciate that. I wouldn't say the monster in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is a sexy villain.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (30:35)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (30:37)

He murders children.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (30:38)

Right, right.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (30:39)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (30:43)

Frankenstein. Dr. Frankenstein himself either, is not, like the sexy maddened creator. He's this wimpy guy who. He creates the monster and the monster start to him immediately. It's not like in the adaptations where he's like. And needs to learn to speak. He's just, like, telling him things. And Dr. Frankenstein's like. He has to go, like, swoon away. He's like, gets the ick from his own creation and faints and has to. I think that's really funny. I think men being dumb is really funny in literature, and you've got a lot of that. I wouldn't. I'm sorry. That doesn't skew towards the sexy side of things.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (31:18)

No, but that's okay. We actually literally have. We're gonna ask you, what are your thoughts on that version of Frankenstein? So, yeah, it's literally on the screen, so it was already there. Yeah, I brought that up. I was like she's reading behind her head.

Rachel Gillig (31:28)

No, I am a little psychic. We'll say that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (31:32)

Say more on being psychic.

Rachel Gillig (31:33)

I don't know if I'm. I mean, I joke that I am, but I'm not.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (31:37)

But this isn't coming from nowhere.

Rachel Gillig (31:40)

It's one of those things where if you say it, you shouldn't. Like, you shouldn't. I don't. Don't you guys think that, like, sometimes if you just say things out loud, like, it almost kind of.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (31:49)

I do.

Rachel Gillig (31:50)

You rub some dirt in it and you don't necessarily want to.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (31:53)

Yeah.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (31:53)

What about speaking things into the universe?

Rachel Gillig (31:55)

What a great question. I. I'm fine with. I. I like that I don't tend to. How do I describe it? I tend to just want to feel open to things. I think we're talking in the sense of the universe, the opposite of a tangical magic system. I'm like, I'm not trying to hold anything intangible to my chest. It's impossible. I tend to just try to be open to knowledge opportunities, open to failure, open to rejection, open to critique. That's a hard one for me. I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist, but I rail against that because it doesn't serve me. But, you know, when I tend to. When I'm right about things, I don't know, maybe I just feel. Maybe it's just an ego thing where I'm like, I knew it. It's literally just me being like, utterly delusional. But I'm. That's. I'm open to that. But I'm also open to just being an oracle.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (32:57)

Prophet.

Rachel Gillig (32:57)

A prophet.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (32:59)

Do you believe there was ever magic in this world? Do you think there still is magic in this world? Like, sometimes when I read these stories, like, about dragons or whatnot, I'm like, was there dragons? How is everybody. Was everybody talking about dragons back.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (33:11)

Each culture seems to have their form of flying beasts or something.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (33:15)

And then I will read, you know, the Vikings believed in all this. Like, do you think. Believe that there was. That there is magic in the world?

Rachel Gillig (33:22)

I don't believe necessarily in otherworldly creatures. I do believe in the magic of storytelling and the evolution of language in that just because, like, the system of beliefs in. We're using the dragons as a good example. Like, hit us. Okay. Like, do I think a dragon ever existed? I'm not saying no to anything, but no, I don't walk around holding this belief. I do walk around and holding the belief that people, their inner world, their imagination, their spiritualism, Their beliefs, their cultures, their laws and mores, depending on what time in the world they existed in. I do believe that in symbolism. I do believe that they create otherworldly creatures or things like this to perhaps share stories, share culture. Sometimes they're used for something like propaganda, but as most of folklore tends to be, however, that being said, what becomes of that, right? Something doesn't exist, but it is used symbolically and then that encourages people to change their own lives. Like I find that to be a form of magic. I tend to think, think the make believe, the storytelling has great power. And regarding actual, like real world magic, I don't know, I tend to think there are. Again, this could. Just because I choose to be delusional. But I do think, I mean nature in and of itself, the earth, the vibrations of the earth, the way that the ocean works. Like I see magic when I see beautiful nature, or I think about the ocean and like the deep under unexplored space, and I'm like, it's none of my business, none of my business, but it's insanely beautiful. And it's inspired people for centuries to come up with these sort of stories to explore, to look beyond themselves. I don't know. There's always magic when you aren't necessarily just thinking about yourself. When you think that the world is full of possibilities, how can you not believe in something? I don't know.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (35:41)

I think because there are no answers, humans are always going to be looking for it. And that was what inspires us, like the folklore, the this and the that. I also sometimes when I'm reading fantasy books, I'm like, oh, if I had magic, like I would be studying so much, I would be the best magic user. And then I often am like, well, if there is like an equivalent in our world today, why am I not going after it? Like, if you want to say that science is our magic and like what we can do with science and medicine, why, like that is a magic. Almost obviously science is not magic, but it's.

Rachel Gillig (36:17)

Sorry, I don't understand that.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (36:18)

But it's like I think that is such a. When you think about that as a whole, I'm like, that is an incredible resource and it could be viewed the same way of why aren't we as driven to do that when it saves lives? It's our magic.

Rachel Gillig (36:36)

Yeah. And there was a point when certain medical technologies didn't exist and before they existed, like someone had to want to prove something that they yet didn't have evidence for. They just had the theory and so, yeah, the drive to study, to create, to explore, I do think, comes from the idea that there is something out there that we haven't found yet. And, of course, like, yeah, there are theories and scientific laws and stuff that. That are proven because someone took that initiative, but before they didn't have it, they didn't always know the Earth is round, y'.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (37:12)

All.

Rachel Gillig (37:12)

But we didn't always know that. Yeah. So someone had. You know what I mean? Like, we just. We must begin somewhere.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (37:19)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (37:20)

And I do think that's a perspective that can transcend art, science, whatnot. Like, it can encapsulate all those things. Also, I've been crying on TikTok. Have you guys been seeing that penguin?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (37:33)

Which penguin?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (37:33)

Oh, the one who left his pack.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (37:35)

Yeah. Yeah, like that. What happened?

Rachel Gillig (37:37)

It's like a. It's the. The.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (37:40)

What happened?

Rachel Gillig (37:41)

I don't even know all the specifics because it makes me cry. And I hear, like, Werner Herzog's voice in the background talking about, like, you know, the. Where is this? Is it in the. Is it in Greenland? Or the.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (37:52)

I don't know if there's penguins.

Rachel Gillig (37:53)

There's, like. There's a very specific kind, but you're right, they're mostly not.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (37:57)

And it's. I think what happened is that if a penguin is feeling ostracized by whatever a group of penguins is called, it will leave. If it's not welcome, it will leave on its own accord. Wow. And then apparently, a scientist, if you get the penguin and bring it back to the group, it will leave the ghost.

Rachel Gillig (38:16)

It will still go. So there's just an image of the penguin wandering towards the mountains all alone. All alone. It makes me wanna cry. I'm so sorry.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (38:26)

Okay, so I saw that imagery because my friend sent it to me. But of course, this is one of obnoxious friends. It was that imagery with an animated penguin twerking in the sky above it. And so that's all I saw. And I was like, something deep is going on here.

Rachel Gillig (38:43)

That was the actual footage.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (38:44)

The rest of the actual footage. I was like, something must be going on here. But I will never know because this is how I found out.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (38:50)

Well, now you know.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (38:51)

Thank you, Brainrot.

Rachel Gillig (38:52)

I love the Internet so much.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (38:55)

Coming back from Milan, we tried a lot of good food and drinks, but you know what I'm craving most right now?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (39:00)

What?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (39:00)

A good espresso.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (39:02)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (39:11)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (39:16)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (39:26)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (39:33)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (39:39)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (39:45)

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Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (39:52)

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Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (39:56)

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Rachel Gillig (40:00)

Anyway, Magic, Magic, magic.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (40:03)

Penguins twerking.

Rachel Gillig (40:04)

Penguins?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (40:04)

Yeah, Penguins twerking in the sky. Oh my God, that's so funny. Have you ever come into contact with the fae or you know, with folk?

Rachel Gillig (40:14)

Yeah, no, but I grew up. Okay, let's. Let's be real. I grew up on. So my. My grandmother had a lot of Mexican stories books. My grandma immigrated from Mexico and very beautiful books. But the old Fae in her books. And then as I grew older, I was still very interested in it. So learn about like the more European stories of it. They are not hot. They are like eat children tricksters and stuff. Yeah. Like hear stories about how to feed the fae. They're like. It's grotesque. I'm sorry, I can't.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (40:51)

The actual brother's Grimm.

Rachel Gillig (40:52)

You're like, ah, I grew up. Up sickly fascinated by it. The way I like elements of horror and body horror and things like that, but. SHE giggles. I wouldn't want to have a run in. In that sort of sense.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (41:05)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (41:06)

There's a cute little walk that my son and I do and there is a hollowed out tree where kids leave older toys. So it's like leave a little trinket, take a trinket. And I'm always in my mind, like with this deep knowledge. I'm like, I don't know, son.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (41:21)

But he's very into it.

Rachel Gillig (41:22)

I don't know. He's very into it. I let him do it so far. He's very. Don't.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (41:26)

Toys you can leave.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (41:27)

Do not take one.

Rachel Gillig (41:28)

He's not like a changeling. He still seems pretty normal.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (41:31)

But you're always keeping an eye out.

Rachel Gillig (41:33)

The fair folk And I. Yeah, it is interesting. I do love those sort of stories, though.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (41:39)

We had childhood friends, and they had this random stairwell. I was gonna tell their exact story.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (41:45)

That's crazy.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (41:46)

She's Irish. And they had this, like, just four steps leading to literally nowhere.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (41:51)

They were. They were gonna renovate their kitchen, and so they. They were gonna. They see if. They were. Seeing if they could knock down a wall. And the contract. Actually something behind here.

Rachel Gillig (41:59)

It reminds me of Coraline. The other mother's over there.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (42:02)

Yeah. And she's Irish. Like, she's a very Irish woman. So she obviously had all these kids before. And she was like, it's the fairies. And she like. And I got on that staircase, and I touched, like, the top of it. I was like, you can let me in.

Rachel Gillig (42:12)

Like, I'm literally like, I'm ready.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (42:14)

Because she, like, told such a good story about these fairies and this stairway that they found behind their wall. And that has stuck with me to this day.

Rachel Gillig (42:20)

These are the sort of things where my husband would be like. And I. He's just like, whatever. And for me, I'm like. To quote Michael Scott from the Office, I'm not superstitious, but I'm a little stitious about. I just feel like that's not my business.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (42:33)

Err on the side of caution.

Rachel Gillig (42:34)

Yeah.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (42:35)

Don't touch.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (42:35)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (42:36)

Don't look.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (42:36)

Don't touch.

Rachel Gillig (42:38)

Yeah, it's not my business.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (42:39)

So sometimes I see maybe ghosts, maybe not.

Rachel Gillig (42:42)

Oh, tell me.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (42:43)

But I am kind of the same thing of, like, let them do their thing, you know? And so I will be like. I'll see them in my room, and I'll just be like, what's up? No, chill.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (42:56)

While she's sleeping.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (42:57)

She's, like, asleep, but kind of awake.

Rachel Gillig (42:59)

The hat man.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (43:00)

I don't. I've seen a bald man before.

Rachel Gillig (43:02)

Okay.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (43:03)

I don't know why that stuck with me, but I see them, and I'm like, yo, just chill. Like, come in. Cause I don't want to upset them.

Rachel Gillig (43:10)

That's good. So they're not like your sleep paralysis demon. They're just. They're floating around.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (43:14)

I will be, like, half asleep, half awake, like Olivia was recently saying with me. And I. I remember. I think that one of them was trying to get in through the window. And I go to the window, like, clawing at the window. And I. Well, sometimes, like, fully awake, and I'll be like, oops, Wait. And then Olivia, if she wakes up, I was like, this is so creepy. I'm clawing at the window. And so She. I don't know what happened then, but.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (43:38)

I basically woke up because I've had. Since we were little, I've had almost a sixth sense for knowing when she's about to like, speak to the other side. I don't know what the hell she's doing, you know what I mean, Where I will wake up and I'll go, oh, she's about to talk.

Rachel Gillig (43:49)

She's doing it again.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (43:50)

And she will talk. And she can also tell when you're awake, even if you're facing away from her, eyes closed, and she'll kind of turn to you and start talking to you.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (43:56)

Creepy.

Rachel Gillig (43:57)

I was a sleep talker. Sleepwalker too.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (43:59)

Really.

Rachel Gillig (44:00)

One time I had such a bad nightmare, I ran out of our house. We lived in the country, so I wasn't gonna get like run over, but I ran all the way up to my. We lived in a unit close to my grandparents house. It was like a granny unit. So it's like a football field away.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (44:15)

Okay.

Rachel Gillig (44:15)

I ran a football field fully asleep.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (44:18)

Isn't that something out of that movie that just came out with all the kids running?

Rachel Gillig (44:20)

I describe it sleepwalking as you're not actually asleep, but you are in a completely altered state of mind. So I know I'm running. I have memory of running, but in my mind, someone is chasing me. There's not. I wake up in a very cozy bed in a very cozy house with a loving family. And under my blankies, and I'm just like, I'm gonna die. And I would just go. And my parents, parents, they probably at that point too, had a bit of a sixth sense. They're like, oh, she's at it again.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (44:53)

Lock the door.

Rachel Gillig (44:53)

Yeah. No, I would unlock the door.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (44:55)

Rachel's guy out again.

Rachel Gillig (44:55)

She's like, Rachel's in the armor.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (44:59)

She's out there in the dirt.

Rachel Gillig (45:01)

No. And I'm just there. And then slowly you do get that normal state of mind, and you're like, oh, I've ran in gravel by bare feet in my, like, you know, limited to pajama set.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (45:16)

I'm just like, ooh. Do you still sleep talk, sleepwalk?

Rachel Gillig (45:20)

Not to my knowledge.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (45:21)

Okay.

Rachel Gillig (45:22)

It is triggered by stress. I've gotten good about my sleep stuff. When I was postpartum, it was really bad. But not sleep walking, but like the sleep terrors of waking up. Just like, knock on wood, we aren't doing that anymore.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (45:41)

I feel like the question is right there. Did this inspire, like the nightmare?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (45:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (45:45)

Sorry.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (45:46)

Good one, Dre.

Rachel Gillig (45:47)

I mean, Good one.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (45:49)

Good.

Rachel Gillig (45:49)

She's crazy now. No, I. Okay, let's go back. I wrote one dark window in draft one in 2018 and it originated from. It's a short poem called the Highwayman by Alfred Neues. It's also in rhyme, which is where all the rhyming couplets me be like, wouldn't be fun.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (46:13)

There you go.

Rachel Gillig (46:14)

That came from. That's kind of the very. It's a very. Obviously it's a short poem and it's a full length fantasy novel. Took liberties, but, you know, there's a dark haired. The innkeeper's daughter's name is Bess, which I'm like, I don't know if I want her to be Bess, but Elspeth is a derivative of Elizabeth, which is Bess. And then the nightmare came from before I. Well, this. When I was a younger person. I was art history major. My grandma was a painter. I'm really into art. But the Henry Fusilli painting of the nightmare, which I'm sure you would recognize if you saw it, it's used in a lot of pop culture. It's just like that little critter laying on or standing. He's very eerie over a woman's body. She's very gothic. She's like, oh, and I love that painting.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:03)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (47:03)

And so like, that's where his namesake is, the nightmare. Obviously, me being kind of a liking that sort of stuff and building out his character and. Yeah. Sleep is always an interesting thing. That space between being awake and being asleep is a. It's a good, like eerie kind of liminal space that I like writing about in fantasy. But Yeah, I guess, sure, all lived experiences inform what I write. But I have concrete examples so I don't have to always tell people about.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:31)

My sleep with that running through the field.

Rachel Gillig (47:35)

Yeah. But that's where all that came from.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:37)

I love it. I was telling my sisters because I like. We read a lot of books, a lot of romantic season stuff that when the nightmare was first introduced, I thought it was going to be the love interest.

Rachel Gillig (47:44)

You were not the only person to.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:45)

Have something I was going to say, you probably hear that all the time.

Rachel Gillig (47:48)

I do.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:48)

But then, like, you know, you started to describe him. I was like, okay, gonna be tough.

Rachel Gillig (47:52)

But nothing I can't work with.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:54)

Nothing I can't work with.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (47:55)

He's crouched.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:56)

Yeah.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (47:57)

Okay. All right.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (47:58)

A lot of hair.

Rachel Gillig (48:00)

But I think I make him snarky enough for the people are they can like look past what he actually looks like.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (48:05)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (48:06)

And they're like, if not love interest, why sexy? Why sexy?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (48:09)

Why sassy?

Rachel Gillig (48:10)

I tried my best to make him not sexy. Also, I thought. I thought I was being definitive in that first section when like, he's there when she's a. Because for me, like, that's the hard cut off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, no, it's true. But there's the painting.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (48:25)

There's the painting.

Rachel Gillig (48:27)

Yeah, that's where it came from.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (48:28)

Okay.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (48:29)

And the horse is so scary.

Rachel Gillig (48:30)

The horse is like, oh my God.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (48:32)

It's like the horse. Out of all spooky Fae books where they're tricksteries.

Rachel Gillig (48:35)

Oh, this is one of my vocal like stims. But do you guys. I mean, I don't know how old you are.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (48:40)

Tell us.

Rachel Gillig (48:41)

You remember when vine existed and there was that relief. Them pouring water over this woman's face. And hello, Yes, I quote to me and hello, everyone. Everyone who's just like. I don't know. Everything to me is like, hello, hello, hello.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (49:01)

Yeah, so anyway, if I ever say hello like that, that's what I'm quoting. Is that fine?

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (49:06)

Oh, that's too much.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (49:07)

Freaking amazing.

Rachel Gillig (49:08)

Sorry. I forgot I was where I was going from that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (49:10)

You bring up the rhyming. When you made that decision to do that, was there any part in all the rhyming that you were like, fudge this. Like you were like. Or do you enjoy that part?

Rachel Gillig (49:17)

I enjoyed it when I decided to. It's when I. I always make more work for myself when I try to do something stylistic like that. So you have to be, you know, you have to be careful. But it was my first book. I was greedy little son of a bitch. So I was like, I'm gonna put them in every chapter header too. And so when I was writing the poems at the end, I was doctoring those up before my final draft. I was like, damn, it's a lot of rhyming.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (49:42)

Yeah, you gotta commit.

Rachel Gillig (49:44)

Also, that's the funny thing about when people are like, nightmare sexy. I was like, you have a Dr. Seuss fetish. Yeah, he is a little bit just like. And he's like. I speak for the like, he is the Lorax.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (49:55)

Right?

Rachel Gillig (49:56)

Speaks for the trees. He's what I wish the Lorax was, which is like, he could kill some people.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (50:01)

He could kill some people.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (50:03)

Never thought about that. For the Lorax.

Rachel Gillig (50:06)

Killing some people. I did when I was growing up. See, that's the thing. Like, I might, you know, the once lers telling that story. And I was like, if the Lorax would have just like, the once slur before, after he made one too many snds, I'd be like, we wouldn't be here in this environmental crisis.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (50:20)

Right.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (50:21)

I know. Sometimes I read a book and I'm like, like, if you just got rid of one person, you'd make it easier for yourself.

Rachel Gillig (50:30)

Then the book wouldn't exist. I know. I hear that all the time too. People are like, why wouldn't Elspeth tell them sooner? I was like, then it would be a 100 page book instead of a 300 page. But it is very. I think it's my. It's my. You know.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (50:41)

Yeah, that's right. Watching movies or anything with these two, they are such secondhand embarrassments. Like, they can't do it. They have to look away. They don't watch things where I'm like.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (50:50)

It has to be like that for.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (50:51)

The story because it's gonna come back around and be okay, and they won't do it.

Rachel Gillig (50:56)

I hear that. Sometimes when it feels too convenient for the plot, I'm gone. Yeah. But sometimes I like a little drama. It really depends. It really depends.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (51:07)

I feel once they introduce the 15 second skip button, it was a bad day for me because now I. I.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:12)

Really am reliant on that.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (51:14)

I'm just like, can't watch that.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:17)

No.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (51:17)

You need to experience the work as a toe as a whole.

Rachel Gillig (51:20)

That's very valid.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (51:21)

Yeah.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:21)

Okay, Rachel, we're gonna play a game called Try Hard in rugby. I like to teach everyone a little rugby whenever they come on the show.

Rachel Gillig (51:27)

A. Do you know what A. I don't know anything.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (51:30)

Okay, perfect.

Rachel Gillig (51:30)

I literally don't know anything.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:32)

Hands up.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (51:32)

I don't know.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:33)

So in, like, football, they have a touchdown. When we score, we call it a trip.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (51:36)

Try, try hard.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:37)

So we're gonna try hard, and you're gonna try hard to answer these questions as quickly as possible.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (51:41)

You can give a little explanation, though we do like to hear why. Okay.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:43)

What's your coffee order? And what would Elspeth's coffee order be? Ravens.

Rachel Gillig (51:50)

I like black coffee, but, oh, God, these are hard.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (51:56)

You got this.

Rachel Gillig (51:57)

Literally. Question one. Okay. I like black coffee. Raven would have an americano. Something just where, like, put some hair on the back. And Elspeth would be like. Like, she'd like a latte, though.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (52:06)

Yeah, I can see that. A flat white, maybe.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (52:09)

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Gillig (52:10)

She's like, she's got enough difficulty in her life. She's like, you need something sweet.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (52:13)

For sure. If you're quoting Vines to me, what's Your favorite meme right now, given the.

Rachel Gillig (52:19)

State of the world. What's that poor dog with the world's like burning around him? He's like, I'm fine.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (52:24)

This is fine.

Rachel Gillig (52:25)

Yeah, this is fine.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (52:25)

Yes, yes, yes. That's a good one.

Rachel Gillig (52:28)

That's everyone's.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (52:29)

Yeah.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (52:29)

What's more beautiful heavy mist or crumbling ruins?

Rachel Gillig (52:32)

Ooh, I love a mist. I grew up in like the Santa Cruz area north of here. And there's always a, like a marine layer. And like the redwood trees also have their own like micro ecosystem where they. It's like a little rainforest sometimes. So dense mist.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (52:50)

I like that answer. I. We get missed occasionally in Vermont, but it's never like heavy but traveling and like being in Sweden for a while. Like, they get missed. You wake up and it always just looks like a storage book.

Rachel Gillig (53:01)

It's so lovely, so mysterious, so gothic.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:04)

Favorite musician or favorite band?

Rachel Gillig (53:06)

I would say just for. I mean, I have so many, but it's usually the ones that I can listen to while writing as well that I'm just like, they're my. My soul music, so. Florence Welsh. Florence and the Machine.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:19)

Yep.

Rachel Gillig (53:20)

From day one, she's just this.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:22)

Your outfit, your hair, your wonderful vibe is. We love the. The band, Joseph. The three sisters. Now it's two of them doing it. Have you ever listened to their music?

Rachel Gillig (53:29)

No.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (53:30)

You'd love them. You'd love them.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:31)

You would love them. If you like. Yeah. Your whole. I'm like, this is something they would wear on stage.

Rachel Gillig (53:35)

I like a lot of female musicians. Singers.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:38)

Yes.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (53:38)

You would get into them. Start with their tiny desk concert.

Rachel Gillig (53:41)

Okay.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (53:41)

And then go from there.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:42)

Joseph is the. Yeah, they're fabulous.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (53:45)

What's one thing you carry with you everywhere?

Rachel Gillig (53:47)

No, it's not cute. Now that I'm a mim hand sanitizer.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:53)

Like this spray.

Rachel Gillig (53:56)

Yeah, I do that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (53:57)

Okay, good.

Rachel Gillig (53:58)

Yeah. Unscented. But then I. It doesn't smell. Nothing smells good to me. I feel.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (54:03)

What do you mean?

Rachel Gillig (54:04)

Like, I'll spray it. Like, if I got a scented one, I'd be like, oh. And then I do the non scented one.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (54:09)

I'm like, you don't do candles?

Rachel Gillig (54:11)

Rarely.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (54:12)

Really?

Rachel Gillig (54:13)

Yeah. I'm just picky about smells. I recently though, got. I love them. I wanted, like, as I'm getting older, I'm like, what's my signature scent? But I tend to feel often when things are smelly. Really even beautiful smells. Ever since. Again, it was one of the fun things about being a mum when I was pregnant. It messed up my sense of smell. That I still haven't. It's not quite. It's very strong.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (54:39)

Interesting.

Rachel Gillig (54:40)

Yeah. Where I could have tolerated so much more when I was younger, but I found the brand Fern, which does.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (54:46)

I'm seeing ads for that.

Rachel Gillig (54:48)

Yes. I'm going to see more now that I said this. That's it speaking into the universe. No, it's. They just do like seasonal perfumes. It's more like natural, which is just. For me. It means it doesn't last as long because it doesn't have certain, like, synthetic preservatives that it just. I got the winter one smells very good. Anyway.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (55:09)

All right, last question. What movie have you seen the most times?

Rachel Gillig (55:13)

Probably Henry Selick's Coraline.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (55:15)

Really?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (55:16)

Yeah.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (55:16)

You do, like, a little scary.

Rachel Gillig (55:19)

I love Coraline. I would say, like, probably the contender that was Nightmare Before Christmas, which is also Henry Selick. People think it's Tim Burton, but Tim Burton wrote the book, but Henry Selick did the movie, which is. I also had just something about claymation and it's so textured and so delightful. And I was also really obsessed with Victorian houses for a long time, which in Coraline, it's like a Queen Anne Victorian house. And I also even wanted to move to wherever that is. Neil Gaiman, who we will not speak of because he's grotesque. But it was originally the book was in the uk, but when they made the claymation movie, it was in Oregon. Set in Oregon. Forget where I think Ash. Ashland. Ashland, Oregon, where they have the Shakespeare Festival. Anyway, I was like, should I move there? It was a hyper focus. And so when I have something like that, it's just on and repeat. So I've probably watched it like a thousand times. I'm not even kidding.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (56:16)

Are you a Ren Faire girly?

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (56:18)

I.

Rachel Gillig (56:20)

The only reason I'm not is because again, it tends to be in the summer and I don't believe in that. I also am not a big crowd person, but I love the costuming. I love Ren Faire to find out about artists and stuff, but I wouldn't call myself like a participant of it. But I tend to now that I'm in the fantasy space longer too. Like, there's cosplay, there's all these things I'm trying to just as I'm in this space longer, to help and buy from independent artists and costumers and fun things like that. Side note, the Knight and the Moth and the COVID and the sequel cover, they used custom chainmail from an artist that had made some for tons of celebrities. Chapel Roan is borrowing Them.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (57:08)

Okay. I was gonna say I just bought.

Rachel Gillig (57:10)

Some of it to wear for my tour vacation. Cause.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (57:12)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (57:13)

So excited. So. Yeah. Anyways.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (57:15)

Oh, that's so fabulous.

Rachel Gillig (57:16)

That's like a straight, like, Ren Faire coated sort of thing, too. So I do appreciate it. I do love it. But I'm a witness. I'm not a participant.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (57:23)

I hear you, Rachel. Now you're part of the family. You've got to help out around the house. So choose some chores, and you'll be given a corresponding challenge. Okay. Okay. Dishes, vacuuming, or sweeping?

Rachel Gillig (57:32)

Vacuuming.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (57:34)

Vacuuming.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (57:35)

People always choose vacuuming.

Rachel Gillig (57:36)

I hate doing the dishes.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (57:37)

I hear you.

Rachel Gillig (57:38)

There's texture.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (57:38)

Tell us about your favorite fan art piece.

Rachel Gillig (57:41)

Oh, gosh. I have to start with the beginning, which is when I was just a little baby author. One dark window had been out for a second. It had a slow. I would call slow, steady rise. But Charlie Bowater, who's a very famous artist who does a lot of COVID art, read it, enjoyed it. Drew Elspeth. I have it pinned. She did a few, but I have it pinned on my Instagram because it's just. I was such a huge fan of hers and her work, and for her to do that just for pleasure, I love.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (58:13)

That's cool.

Rachel Gillig (58:14)

I bought it and it's, like, framed. It's a huge thing in my house. You come in, it's like, cute little house, and it's like, boom. Elspeth, is it above the mantel? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's above one of my shelves. Our house is basically a library, but. Yes.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (58:27)

Have you ever seen fan art of how people portray Raven? And you're like, that's not it.

Rachel Gillig (58:33)

Oh, yeah. They give him, like, a pretty note, like a. Just like a little, like, girl. He tends to be too good looking.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (58:45)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (58:46)

I think that, to be fair, I don't think that's just, like, a Raven issue. I think across the board, a lot of. As an artist myself, I love drawing women. So when I tend to draw men, I was like, I've been feminized him in a way that just because. Because I'm Bugman, I just like drawing women, so. But yes, I do tend to think, like, honestly, in fantasy, sometimes the men are harder to depict because we're used to the feminization of the main characters, which tend to be women. Raven has got that, like, I kind of see him, like, Dev Patel.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (59:20)

Ish.

Rachel Gillig (59:20)

In my mind, who I think is a very beautiful man.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (59:22)

I agree.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (59:23)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Gillig (59:25)

So Raven's just too pretty sometimes.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (59:28)

I've seen that because I love a fan art. But the men are sometimes have the same look about them. They just have hair color and, like the skin tone and whatnot. But it's all very much so the same.

Rachel Gillig (59:41)

My local Barnes and Noble gave me one. Dark window was their monthly pick when it first came out. So they gave me, like, I have. I have paraphernalia. I'm not tend to be someone who wants to display these things, but I'm like, if I don't, I don't access moments of pride in my own achievements.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (59:56)

Who else do it?

Rachel Gillig (59:57)

So I'm very. I'm very proud of that. Yeah, I didn't do it, but my.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:01)

Mom buys fan art of me.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (60:02)

Oh, my God.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:03)

So whenever a fan makes art and they post it on Instagram, my mom then messages them and it could just be some girl somewhere.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (60:09)

Truly.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:10)

And my mom will pay them.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (60:11)

If you're an artist looking to make money, draw lona.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:13)

Draw alone.

Rachel Gillig (60:13)

My mom buys it here first.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (60:15)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (60:15)

Wait, I love that.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:16)

Yeah. So I have a whole wall of just like pictures of fan art of me. But I think it's so cool that mom is like these young artists. She's paying.

Rachel Gillig (60:25)

Absolutely.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:26)

You know, she's patron of the arts.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (60:27)

Yeah.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (60:27)

Patron of the arts world.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (60:29)

I love that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (60:29)

Real quick, you mentioned the chainmail for your book tour. Can you tell us a bit more about book tour?

Rachel Gillig (60:33)

No, because I don't know yet where I'm going.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (60:36)

All right. Damn it.

Rachel Gillig (60:38)

I do know. I mean, so the book's coming out the Nave and the Moon, the sequel to the Night in moths, coming out September 1st.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (60:44)

All right, I'm on.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (60:45)

Yeah, keep us posted.

Rachel Gillig (60:46)

Last year for the Night in the Moth, I did U.S. tour. I kind of did. And I ended up my last stop was here in la, because I'm home just a little north, so it could mirror that one. I don't know. It's the sequel. It may be lesser. I don't.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (61:04)

Did you enjoy it?

Rachel Gillig (61:05)

I did. It's kind of weird that I do enjoy things like events because I. Because I'm so introverted and because I wouldn't say being the center of attention is anything I ever sought, experienced, enjoyed. But, like, with work, you guys know, like, sometimes you can access, like, a different part of your brain and you find that it's actually really fun.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (61:32)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (61:33)

So going. I also get to meet other authors when I do tours, which writing can feel really insular because you're literally just hunched over your computer crying all day for the people you deal with. The most, it's over email. A lot of publishing is in New York, here in California, I'm just like on the Central coast, just living my strange little life. But like. And then suddenly you're like, you're going from city to city day after day. And I don't mind an airport, I don't mind a carry on bag and just got my stuff and going like, I quite like it.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (62:06)

A little adventure.

Rachel Gillig (62:07)

Yeah, Love that. So ideally, you know, there will continue to be these. And I will continue to have these opportunities and meet new authors and be on podcasts.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (62:15)

Perfect. We'll keep an eye out for that.

Rachel Gillig (62:17)

Thank you.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (62:18)

We're gonna head on over to the book nook, which is. I mean, we've been talking about books, but this is now direct.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (62:23)

This is our section on it right here.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (62:26)

As a whole, I think in romance fantasy, we've been seeing a lot of.

Rachel Gillig (62:30)

Of.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (62:32)

Not animated cartoon covers, you know, and so I think that is a huge trend at the moment. But yours deviates from that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (62:39)

Yeah. Like, you had a shoot for your books, right?

Rachel Gillig (62:41)

I did, I did. Again, those things. That wasn't in my hands at all. But I'm not mad about it whatsoever. One of the questions I get often is like, if you do get a shit cover, would do you have the freedom to say something about that? And yes. However, that has just never been my experience. I've never had to say anything about it because I have what I find to be very beautiful covers. I have. Her name's Lisa. She's the head of the art department in. She's an art producer at Orbit Us, which is my publisher. And she's done all four of my covers. And the most recent two, the Night the Moth and the Nave of the Moon, were photo shoots. Everything was model, the costuming, the set. The first one I think was probably harder for them to even do because she had to be submerged in water.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (63:32)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (63:33)

Insane. But this one, at least she didn't have to be half drowned when it comes to trends. Yeah, it is interesting, I think. Yeah. I would say the animated stuff doesn't fall as much into fantasy as it certainly does into romance, but yeah. Yes, it's in a lot of romance books now. I like the bright colors. It makes me feel sunny. I think it evokes perhaps what I imagine they're trying to.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (64:01)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (64:03)

And then the same goes with fantasy. Some of the big swirly scripts or the whatever. Like, it's invoking. Like, this is.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (64:10)

I don't know.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (64:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Gillig (64:11)

Adventurous.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (64:12)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (64:13)

I don't know, I don't know. I always wonder what it would be like to be trying to be the person who's deciding what's going to be the next thing or like. But I like high, high visuals. I tend to. Or I tend to do both. It's like a high visual or it's very minimalistic. The things that I like.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (64:33)

So I wanted to ask you about your decision to put One Dark Window on Kindle Unlimited. I think I'm a huge Kindle Unlimited reader and it's kind of like an unanswered question of mine of why and when authors decide to do that.

Rachel Gillig (64:48)

That is a great question. Unfortunately not for me because I don't decide really. No. There are two sort of things though on Kindle Unlimited, which is because it became so popular again during like the pandemic when people were reading more. It was originally for self PubMed. From two of my understanding. I can't really speak to the self publishing experience but I know traditionally published books like mine where I don't control when it comes out. Basically I would love a hardback always, but One Dark Window came out in paperback first. I don't control those sort of things. So when they decided to put it on there, I believe it was the right move. It was for. Because I think they were seeing the boon fantasy was having in that space. But. But I don't have any dog in that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (65:43)

No, that.

Rachel Gillig (65:43)

No. But I love it. I use Kindle Unlimited. I love Kindle Unlimited. I've had it for years now. And it's a really great way to discover books and to just spend a lot of time on your phone reading or you know, I use my iPad because I'm an ancient entity and I'm just like, you have a very large thing to look at. But yeah.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (66:02)

Oh, that's a good answer. That's good to know too.

Rachel Gillig (66:05)

Yeah. It's funny publishing so much like it's your book. Like nothing would exist without the work I put in crying on my computer. But also you have to really be well versed in letting go. It's completely out of my control again when it comes to what happens to it after that. Once I'm basically done fiddling with the language, I'm done. So they decide to put on Kindle Unlimited. How long they want to run the hardback versus the paperback. If I even go on a tour or something like that, I could do my own tour perhaps if I was motivated. But it's an expense and so I was not doing anything for a while. One Dark Window came out, didn't do anything. Two Twisted Crowns came out and it hit the list, which was very unexpected but really beautiful and delightful. And all of that had to do with something like Kindle Unlimited and things like that. But because it was just a word of mouth sort of thing, the promotion wasn't even me. So I still didn't travel late. The Night in the Moth. My third book was the first time I've kind of ventured out into the world. So. Yeah, I love to see it. It's out of my control. Maybe one day I won't be doing tours because things will have changed, but. But I just try to enjoy what I can and. Yeah, cool.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (67:27)

Seems like a good mentality to have.

Rachel Gillig (67:29)

Yeah, I try. You know how it is. It's a mental game.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (67:32)

Are you reading anything right now?

Rachel Gillig (67:34)

I am.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (67:34)

What are we reading?

Rachel Gillig (67:36)

I've been recently asked to do an article about other gothic fantasy. And so for me, I had to really like hone it down because I'm not falling into horror. I can't do something like Frankenstein or I can't do a lot of books that would actually probably fall more into horror. So I'm looking into. I'm rereading actually some of my favorites. And I recently have reread one of my favorite books ever. It's A Study in Drowning by Ava Reed. Really, really delightful. And now I'm reading the Witch Would not by Olivia Atwater. She did. Speaking of Fae, she did one called. It's like a Fae Regency. Like they're really cute. It's romance with Fae. Like manners and mischief and all those sort of things. And this one is more gothic. It's in a haunted house. There is Fae on the other side.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (68:26)

Side.

Rachel Gillig (68:26)

Speaking of like the other side of the house. Sort of like creepy. It's delightful. So I'm reading that right now. I'm having a really good time. I love that.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (68:32)

Is there a book you wish everyone would read? Doesn't have to be, you know, romantasy fake gothic. It can just be any book you wish everyone would read. Besides your complete library.

Rachel Gillig (68:41)

Besides mine.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (68:42)

Yeah.

Rachel Gillig (68:43)

I grew up. I love. I don't know, sometimes the older I get, the more I like hearken to the things that I enjoyed when I was a young person. Ella Enchanted. Do you guys remember that book we loved the movie?

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (68:56)

I didn't know there was a book for that.

Rachel Gillig (68:57)

Read the book. Really? It is the cutest. I mean, we talk about like fairy tale origins. Like that's for me as well. Like it's so Good. So cute. My paperback copy disintegrated when I was a little person. I just. I just. In this day and age, sometimes I. I want to read the things that reminded me why I wanted to do this in the first place. So that's a. Yeah, read it. You'll have a great time. You'll read it in a day. It's really sweet. And it's middle grade. Good now.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (69:32)

Sometimes I yearn for just like, being a middle schooler and just how walking into a library and seeing all of, like, the books from my age group made me feel like that the world was at my fingertips. Like the Scholastic Book Fair of it all.

Rachel Gillig (69:46)

Yes.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (69:47)

You know, and I'm just like, that was such a. Such a time. And I think I'm always chasing that feeling and I don't know if I'll ever get it back because I think part of it is you're so young, your brain isn't developed all the way that like to think the world could be that bag. And now I come, like, I know how big the world is.

Rachel Gillig (70:00)

Yeah. You may not get it back, but I think you'll probably advocate for it for the rest of your life for things like arts in schools. Arts and readers. Like the. A library funding libraries. Like, it'll become political as you get older, but. But like, in a really beautiful way because you want people to experience those things as well. At least that's how I feel about it.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (70:21)

I have one other question. Any thoughts on your things getting. Your works getting adapted?

Rachel Gillig (70:27)

I have thoughts.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (70:28)

Yeah. What do we have?

Rachel Gillig (70:30)

What kind of thoughts? What do I think? I can't say anything. I know.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (70:38)

I was like, what can she say? That's why I'm trying to pose it.

Rachel Gillig (70:41)

Okay, what do I say? What do I say? Okay, okay, we'll talk about. I'll use vague, grotesque, not like information. They'll tell you something by telling you nothing, which is that fantasy is tricky. It's harder than perhaps romance.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (70:55)

Okay.

Rachel Gillig (70:57)

Budgetary wise. And just sometimes, like, stylistically, I'm a picky, annoying person, which is like, I don't want it to. We talked earlier about, like, anachronisms and things with language. I tend to be really annoyed by a lot of adaptations of fantasy where they look fucking snatched to the gods. Like, her eyelash extensions are looking gorgeous while she's fighting or something. IPhone face. Yes. Like iPhone face. Like, we could go. We talk about this for a really long time, unfortunately for me. But I like texture. I like lived in. I don't. I don't think fantasy needs to meet any contrived beauty standard. Like so across the board it tends to be tricky. A budgetary. It's just from a strictly production value thing too. It's more expensive, it's less done. But we are living in a time when I'm seeing a lot of adaptations at least getting optioned and getting snatched up. And no matter what, it gives me hope. There's a lot of great books out there. I do. We like original material. I want to see adaptations. I hope they are all done well. And so that's starting to happen with fantasy. So we're also seeing some exciting things in like animation and stuff. I don't think the possibilities could be endless. Could be endless. Cut out the iPhone face and we're good.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (72:23)

We're good.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (72:23)

Cut out the iPhone face and that's.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (72:25)

One thing I always talk about is one of my favorite book series. I've talked about my entire But Vampire Academy. Yeah. So the main character to me is somebody like me. She's really. She's really strong, powerful and buff. And then when they make this movie and they choose these actresses, I'm like, did the author say okay to this? Yeah, yeah. Was she in there? And then we learned from. Did that rep what the author wrote? Yeah, we learned from Emily Henry. A lot of times they don't have as much say, but it's like, I would love to see that balance of.

Rachel Gillig (72:54)

I would love to see it too. I don't know all the ins and out, but I do know something like the Leigh Bardugo's Six of Crows. Like the casting was so well done.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (73:03)

That was really great.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (73:04)

Right.

Rachel Gillig (73:04)

So I do think. Yeah, something like that. Where I see why studios are interested because it has this built in audience, this built in readership and they're highly invested. But then. Right. That has to be aligned in that you are servicing that readership by not just like, I don't know, whatever the studio decides at that moment. Like, it. It's about the readership as well.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (73:27)

Like I feel you need to get together the hardcore readers.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (73:30)

Right.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (73:30)

We're making the fan arts and maybe they are. But to be like, what do we think about it?

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (73:34)

What do we need in wrong?

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (73:36)

Like not because the outside people who haven't read the books, they'll watch the movie and be like, oh, that was a good movie.

Rachel Gillig (73:41)

Exactly. Well, yeah, but if they're making it, they're automatically trying to tap in right. To that readership. They can't exist in a vacuum. So they have to. In my mind. Like I like I'm okay with stories deviating. It doesn't have to be exactly what happened in the book. There's a. But I mean they should. I don't know, there has to be something that's true to it. And I think on just even on a superficial level, like yeah, characters. These stories are character based anyways. There should be some honesty and like truth to the two.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (74:17)

But my take one Dark Window adaptation could be shot very practically. We're not going to need a lot of money if you get a fog machine. Baby cards, people be tapping them. They got to act really well, you know, if they're under control of whatever. You know, someone has the maiden card, you dress her up, you get a little glossy looking. Maybe an iPhone face, you swap in an iPhone face. Yeah, she just knows the maiden card. We put them all. That's what I'm saying. Somebody.

Rachel Gillig (74:47)

Ione's just like, yep, that's actually I'm.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (74:50)

We forgot to ask how you pronounce Ione.

Rachel Gillig (74:53)

It can be pronounced Ione as well, traditionally, but because I in some sense do get the say when it comes to audiobook stuff. So how audiobooks goes, they give you like auditions of a couple narrators and then you choose them. But when, especially in something like fantasy, when stuff is made up, they want you to pronounce names and places. And I was like, it's Ione. So now canonically, it's Ione.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (75:18)

It's Ione. Okay, good to know.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (75:19)

It's Ione. All right, well, thank you so much for coming over. Make sure you follow Rachel on IG at RM Gillig and on TikTok at Rachel Gillig Books. And make sure to check out her latest, the Night and the Moth, as well as her next book, the Nave and the Moon, hitting your shelves September 1st. And don't forget your cloak. We'll see you next week.

Host 3 (possibly John or another Mars sister) (75:39)

Thank you so much for coming over to the House of Mar a Wave original.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (75:42)

Be sure to watch and subscribe on YouTube and listen more at your podcast.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (75:46)

Plus follow the show on social media HouseOfMar for clips and behind the scenes content.

Host 1 (possibly Olivia or a Mars sister) (75:50)

Thank you for keep keep writing.

Host 2 (possibly another Mars sister) (75:55)

Get back to Back in the room.