‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4 Deep Dive

Summary

‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 4 Deep Dive

House of R (The Ringer) — Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson
Air Date: February 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this House of R deep dive, Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson examine Episode 4 of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, unpacking every moment from Dunk’s imprisonment and the fallout of Egg’s royal secret to the momentous Trial of Seven. They explore the emotional highs and devastating lows, analyze the evolving theme of knighthood and honor, discuss the influence of prophecy, and highlight how this episode pays homage to both Game of Thrones and classic fantasy storytelling.

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Opening Impressions and Fan Reactions

[07:57–10:52]

• Both hosts express passionate admiration for Episode 4, with Joanna declaring:
  • "I keep thinking about it. I cried multiple times watching it." (08:05)
  • Mallory: "This is my favorite episode of the season... This is one of my favorite Thrones episodes, period." (09:44)
• The episode’s emotional resonance is compared to iconic moments in the Thrones canon, notably Jamie knighting Brienne.
• The hosts hope the show’s emotional resonance will expand the audience, making it an entry point even for those put off by GoT’s brutality.

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Knighthood, Naming, and Thematic Deep Dive

[10:52–14:20, 17:29–46:45]

• Theme of Names and Lies:
  • The importance and duality of names, with Egg’s secret identity, is foregrounded.
    • Joanna: "Yeah, but you did [lie] about everything, starting with your name." (33:20)
  • The moral complexity of lying: Dunk grapples with Egg’s deception even as he conceals his own monstrous lie about being a knight.
    • Mallory: "It is much more interesting than Dunk never doing anything wrong..." (46:45)
• Knighthood and Self-Perception:
  • Dunk’s recurring doubts about his legitimacy as a knight are juxtaposed with his very real knightly actions and ethos.
    • Joanna: "The most honorable character, probably, that George ever wrote. And the fact that...his entire story is based on this very human flaw, I think, is delicious." (46:31)
• Visual & Literary Symbolism:
  • Tarot and threshold imagery are discussed:
    • Joanna’s tarot analysis: Dunk’s entry onto the tourney grounds visually mirrors classic tarot cards, symbolizing a “gatekeeper” at the threshold of an ordeal. (23:29–25:16)
    • The prison window’s crown-like framing: Directorial commentary notes how this subtly underlines themes of false power and aspiration.

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Character Moments and Relationships

[46:45–1:14:07]

• Dunk & Egg:
  • Their bond—strained by Egg’s lie but ultimately reaffirmed—is explored in all its hurt, forgiveness, and warmth.
    • Egg’s apology and Dunk’s heartbreak:
      • "It’s just a bit of bad luck we found each other, isn’t it?" – Dunk (42:40)
      • Joanna: "It’s also, like, a sour note version of their previous episode’s teasing..." (49:55)
• The Targaryens & Familial Strife:
  • Rebellion, prophecy, and blood: The Targaryen history of loving—and killing—kin is connected to Baelor’s admonition and foreshadowed tragedy.
    • “Arian is your brother. And the septons say, we must love our brothers.” – Baelor (67:13)
    • Historical context: Baelor’s attempt to hold his family together counterpoints the long Targaryen tradition of brothers at war (Blackfyre Rebellion, Dance of the Dragons).
  • Egg’s unique vantage as a royal, yet also an outsider, is highlighted.

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Framing, Directing, and Visual Genius

[21:09–28:21, 23:32, 140:23–141:16]

• Sarah Dina Smith’s Direction:
  • The episode’s opening—Dunk in the cell with a “window like a crown”—is a standout for both hosts.
  • Joanna notes connections between shots and tarot/medieval art, emphasizing the show’s layering of myth and character psychology.

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The Trial of Seven: Stakes, Symbolism & Recruitment

[98:54–1:54:52]

• Trial by Seven – Preparation & Meaning:
  • Ancient, seldom-invoked, and deeply tied to faith, the Trial of Seven’s rarity and legacy gain added drama from being the first in over 160 years.
    • "If seven champions fought, the gods being thus on honored would be more like to intervene and see the guilty party punished." (111:54)
• Aryan’s True Colors:
  • Aryan’s invocation of the Trial by Seven is motivated by self-preservation and a desire to manipulate the field (with hopes that Dunk can’t find enough support).
• Recruitment & Loyalty:
  • A parade of would-be allies and betrayals: Stefan Fossaway promises support but defects for ambition (“traded your honor for a lordship”), leaving Raymond Fossaway to step up in a moment of true courage.
    • "Knight me. I will take my cousin’s place." – Raymond Fossaway (161:47)
  • Lionel Baratheon’s motivations are complex—part glory, part rivalry, part anti-Targaryen feeling.
• Raymond’s Knighthood:
  • Dunk’s reticence to knight Raymond is a powerful textual signifier that Dunk himself was never truly knighted, despite living by the code.

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Legendary Moments: Baylor’s Entrance & Heroism

[198:59–204:36]

• Baylor Rides for Dunk:
  • As the crowd and Dunk’s hope dwindle, Baelor Breakspear’s decision to champion Dunk is an electrifying, emotional moment, accompanied by the Game of Thrones theme in full earnestness.
    • "I will take Sir Duncan’s side." – Baelor (198:59)
    • Mallory: "...An instantly iconic, wonderful moment. And it’s so good in the text. I loved getting to see this brought to screen. I got chills watching this." (200:24)
  • The choice is explored as both idealistic (true knighthood/honor) and pragmatic (political optics for the Targaryens), with both angles acknowledged.

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Divinity & the Seven: Are the Gods Intervening?

[175:26–184:46]

• Seven-as-Symbolism Theory:
  • The show nods to the idea that the seven members on Dunk’s side (each mapped to a godly aspect—the Crone, the Warrior, etc.) represent a form of divine intervention or mythic fate.
    • The Bhad Babies and listeners buzz with mapping theories, e.g., Steely Pate as the Smith or the Crone.
  • Mallory: "To flip that [trial’s] source of dread and make that a source of community for Dunk, it’s just such a beautiful way to think about it." (183:20)
• Fart & Bodily Functions as Humanizers:
  • The brute of Bracken’s fart, and Dunk’s earlier bodily trials, are celebrated as Chaucerian equalizers, a reminder of the humanness beneath all the myth.

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On Intention and Harm:
  • "One need not intend harm to do it." – Baelor (62:20)
    • Mallory: "It conveys an elemental Thronesian quality...It’s not always that clean. The real world is messy. The world of Westeros...is messy." (63:37–65:19)
• Knighthood and Belief:
  • "A knight who remembered his vows." – Steely Pate (famed book line, discussed in show’s adaptation context, 145:42)
• Baylor’s Choice:
  • "This man protected the innocent. As every true knight must. Let the gods decide if he was right or wrong." – Baelor (201:57)
• Epic Speech on the Tourney Field:
  • "I was not Sir Arlen’s blood, but I have followed his example as your sons will follow yours. Who will stand and fight with me?" – Dunk (185:25)
    • Referenced against Henry V’s St. Crispin’s Day speech.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Episode Opinions, Fan Letters, and Mailbag: 07:57–14:14
• Naming, Lying, and Identity (Dunk & Egg’s Cell Scene): 32:00–51:29
• Visual Direction & Tarot Symbolism: 23:17–28:21
• Targaryen Family Dynamics/Historical Parallels: 67:13–76:06
• Aryan, Lord Ashford, & The Trial’s Rules Explained: 97:55–111:32
• Side Recruitment, Betrayals, and Raymond’s Knighthood: 150:00–163:18
• Baylor Emerges/Trial About to Begin: 198:59–204:36
• Divinity/The Seven & Symbolic Analysis: 175:26–184:46
• Fart Theory/Chaucerian Bodily Functions: 194:25–197:17

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House of R Signature Detours

• Lighthearted musings (Valentine’s specials, wearings of blue knitwear, audience outreach).
• Shoutouts to recurring House of R lexicon: “Talk the Thrones,” "Bhad Babies," "night of the seven kingdom MVPs."
• Recurring bits: Joanna’s defense of Raymond as her MVP, Mallory’s quest for every red apple, and notes on “fancasting” and fanfic.

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Book Spoiler Section (Final 15 mins)

• Discussion of how prophecy threads (especially Egg’s dagger/dragons prophecy) may echo in Summerhall and later Dunk & Egg stories.
• Teasing of the tragic fate of Baelor and impending Blackfyre Rebellion implications.
• Fan theories about Bloodraven possibly "lurking" incognito in earlier episodes.

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Final Notes

• The episode radiates love for the source material and show, using both deep textual analysis and affectionate, irreverent fandom.
• Mallory: "It allows you to believe that other people in your life could do things like this and also that you could find the strength to do a thing like this...It’s really like a balm for the soul." (204:22)
• The hosts celebrate the delicate balance of hope, tragedy, and complexity in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms as both a continuation of and corrective to the broader Thrones universe.

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Notable Quotes Roundup

• "I haven’t felt this just like, my heart being, like, sort of pulled out of my chest with how emotionally invested I am...since 2019." – Joanna (10:34)
• "He knew what it was like to want something so badly that you would tell a monstrous lie just to get near it." – George R.R. Martin, as quoted by Mallory (59:54)
• "Are there no true knights among you?" – Dunk (190:08)
• "One need not intend harm to do it." – Baelor (62:20)
• "I will take Sir Duncan’s side." – Baelor (198:59)
• "A knight who remembered his vows." – Steely Pate/book canonical; discussed at 145:42

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For more analysis or to send feedback/theories, listeners are encouraged to email:
hobbitsanddragonsmail.com

Next up:
Talk of the Thrones after Episode 5, then Valentine’s special and penultimate/finale coverage.

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Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

Foreign.

[Mallory Rubin]

Welcome to House of R, a Ringer Verse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, joining me today to remind us that one need not intend harm to do it. That's what we told Carlos and Jacob before we started recording. In terms of the likely runtime today, it's Joanna Robinson.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, hi.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hello, Jo. We are here to dive deep, profoundly deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep into episode four of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. And we're going to do that right after this. This episode is brought to you by Walt Disney World Resort, the most magical place on earth where you can go into hyperspace in the Millennium Falcon, ride past hitchhiking ghosts in the Haunted Mansion, and shrink to the size of Andy's toys in Toy Story Land. There are infinite worlds that you can experience and it's all in one place. Walt Disney world Resort. Visit disneyworld.com to learn more and discover a world of magic this Summer across all four theme parks.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by AMC. You do not want to miss. Rise of the 49ers, the limited series event premiering February 1st and 2nd. Exclusive exclusively on AMC and AMC. Executive produced by Tom Brady, the docu series charts the legendary rise of the San Francisco 49ers from underdogs to five time Super bowl champions in the 80s and 90s. It features interviews with Joe Montana, Jerry Rice and Ronnie Lott, as well as never be seen archival footage. Rise of the 49ers, premiering February 1st and 2nd. Visit amcplus.com to start your free trial.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, a quick refresher. If you don't know now, more than halfway through the season, how we do this.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm sure they do, but if they.

[Mallory Rubin]

Every now and then someone's like, maybe this is the first pod they listen to. How do you guys do it? Thanks for asking. And everyone else is like, guys, I've been listening to you for dozens of hours at this point in this show and years. All right, talk the Thrones back to its usual schedule Sunday because there's not the super bowl this weekend. By the way, the Patriots ate shit. And that was great. That was wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry, Arduna.

[Mallory Rubin]

I sent him the least authentic I'm so sorry, pal note ever. It was.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is miraculous timing. We're already off.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. Even for us, it's impressive. So we will be back on Sunday night right after episode five, which is somehow already the penultimate episode of the season of television. Sad with CR with the crank daddy himself, Chris Ryan. Is that a private nickname or do we say that on podcasts?

[Joanna Robinson]

You say it all the time on Mike.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great, Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm sure he loves it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Speaking of Craig Daddies Captain Crank. And then we'll be back.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's Valentine's Day week.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow, look at you. See, if Chris were here, he'd say, what a segue. Because that's the thing he likes to say, but he's not, so I said it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. It's Valentine's Day this week.

[Mallory Rubin]

V Day Quickie.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're doing our third annual V Day quickie episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

So that's a series, but we're kind of pairing it with another series we're doing.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like technically a best of the century so far episode, but we've decided, what is time, what is the century? We don't really care. So. So we're doing a Valentine's Day special that has to do with, like, romance and sex stuff. Go. Sex stuff. Go. Sex stuff. Go. You sent me categories. I believe 50% of them were sex based. We might modify that a bit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you have any additional ideas?

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct.

[Mallory Rubin]

Bump into feedback.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct. But we're gonna do something sweet and romantic and smutty for Valentine's Day this week.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will we be breaking the whiteboards back out?

[Joanna Robinson]

We will be breaking the whiteboards out.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's fantastic news.

[Joanna Robinson]

That is happening. And also people are like, wait, I heard you were doing Buffy season three.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, like, you guys definitely made the mistake. You said you were never gonn. Which was commit publicly on the record to a schedule for a podcast.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but we had some technical difficulties last week, so we decided to give ourselves a break. And we'll be wrapping up Buffy next week. We promise. Spoilers.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't believe you promised. I mean, we do intend to, but a promise on a Thrones podcast?

[Joanna Robinson]

I laughingly promised.

[Mallory Rubin]

Promise me, Ned. Promise me. Yeah. Spoilers. How do we do it? How do we navigate spoilers on this here podcast?

[Joanna Robinson]

Listen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do we like context from the larger Game of Thrones universe?

[Mallory Rubin]

We love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Has anything that has ever been filmed and showed on television or Game of Thrones on the table? Yes. Anything from A Song of Ice and Fire? That book series on the table? Yes. The Duncan Egg novellas.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Only up through what the show has shown. So we will be giving context in the books, but if it's anything that comes in the near future for a dunk and an egg and anyone associated that is going in our book spoiler section at the end of the podcast, there is A sound that has traumatized the nation, dare I say the globe. Thank you, Carlos. But they are not making the mistake of listening to spoilers they don't want to listen to. So that is also true.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fantastic stuff. Last question before we get going.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, please.

[Mallory Rubin]

How can everybody follow along? And how can they reach us?

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, listen, if this is your first podcast and not your 900th hour with us, why don't you just subscrib, subscribe to the Pod and all, wherever you get your podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great idea.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that's a great idea. You can watch us. We're both wearing blue knitwear today. That's right. To behold, we are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mine is like, shedding a lot. So if you see us, if you.

[Joanna Robinson]

See dust notes, if you see, like, angora moments in the air, that's Mallory. Okay, so that's video worth watching on YouTube or Spotify.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. Right there in the Spotify app. Video podcasts. Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hell, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also, follow us on the social media platform of your choice.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, whatever particular nightmare you choose to engage with, that's your business, not ours. And then, last but not least, of course. And we got a ton of great ones today, did we not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow, the Bhad Bhabies were at the Keyboard 5 this week. Rare form, extra time. Because, of course, this episode of A Night of the Seven Kingdoms posted on Friday because of the Super Bowl. Did I mention that the Patriots embarrass themselves in the Super Bowl?

[Joanna Robinson]

And did we record this deep dive earlier? No, it's Tuesday, as per Ush. You know what?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I know it's okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Looking at the ocean.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, I agree. It's definitely okay. Just saying, it's Tuesday. It is. When will this go up? That's up to the tech gods to decide. But we're recording this Tuesday morning. Hobbitsanddragonsville.com if you ever wanna email us.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff. We'd love to hear from you now. And always send us your thoughts on this television show. What else is coming up that they should email us about? I mean, Buffy, Buffy, ships, yearning sex. I mean, fictional character sex for the movie day special.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll say this, I'm gonna drop a hint. We're doing. We're planning to do a Nolan podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. We are going to resume the Nolan.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we're just wanting you to bear in mind, if you're like, which one? I'm just gonna say yeah. Oh, I don't know. Think of a major release that's coming out next month that we might be unhealthily obsessed with and think about what Nolan Phil might connect to that. And that is your hint on this podcast about what we're doing next.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Love to be cryptic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some might say needlessly so, but others might say, I love a riddle.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cheers.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, God. We're doing great today.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Should we start?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it. It is time for the opening snapshot. All. All right. We have such, even by our standards for a 30 minute television program, such a robust deep dive today. We are really going beat by beat. We are going to try to keep the opening snapshot a little tighter today and just say, what did we think of episode four? If you haven't listened to Talk to Thrones yet, you haven't watched Talk of Thrones yet. Give people a little taste of what we'll be breaking down beat by beat, word by word, frame by frame from here. Did you like this episode?

[Joanna Robinson]

I need you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you like it?

[Joanna Robinson]

Just slow down.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you like it?

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Same.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm obsessed with it. I keep thinking about it. I cried multiple times watching it. I love hearing how much other people loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm really, really excited about it. On the naming front and this is just the only thing I want to say. We've been tracking sort of the titles of the episodes and whether or not when we get an episode called Hedge Knight or the Squire and whether or not that character is actually a hedge knight or actually a squire, the seven.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which character was actually packing the hard salt beef? You always skip that one. Well, should you?

[Joanna Robinson]

Doesn't help my thesis very much. But are the gods really actually here and involved in this? I mean, we have a lot of theory emails that we got from our listeners. Thank you so much for engaging in the. In the. Are the seven actually here? Question. But like what divine justice is really at work here? Doesn't seem to be, I don't know, it doesn't really feel like if there are just gods out there that they're really involved in what Aryan is pulling here in this episode. So.

[Mallory Rubin]

And just inside of the George universe, such a delicious, compelling and rich concept that something like a trial of seven combat in basically like the form of war at that point when 14, 14 warriors have unwanted real swords, lances of war, as Raymond is happy to point out, you know, to invoke the gods in that capacity. The areas where the characters inside of this universe look to the septons invoked Many times across this episode, either directly or subtly or a religion for some sort of COVID justification, comfort. When is that contradiction impossible to ignore? Wonderful title for this episode. I love it. I also love that it was just seven.

[Joanna Robinson]

Seven trials.

[Mallory Rubin]

Seven. Great stuff. You mentioned other people liking this episode a lot. I love this episode. This is my favorite episode of the season. I've loved the season. This is my favorite. This is one of my favorite Thrones episodes, period. I just thought this was fantastic. Easily the one I've heard from the most for other people in my life, being like, that was dope.

[Joanna Robinson]

And this is what we've been saying all season that we were just, like, really hoping in episode three with that reveal and then in episode four with the, like, you know, gathering of the teams and the balor moment that we get that, like, people would start talking up this. This show and hopefully hooking other people into watching it. I'm really, really hoping that the word is gonna spread. I have not felt this profoundly about a Game of Thrones story genuinely, since Jamie knighted. Brienne is the last time I got this Emotionally invested, with love.

[Mallory Rubin]

What an appropriate association.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, House the Dragon. We have so much love for Viserys. Long walk. There's a number of moments that, like, really did. Did work for me, but I haven't felt this just like, my heart being, like, sort of pulled out of my chest with how emotionally invested I am and what's going on in. Since 2019. So it's been. It's been a minute.

[Mallory Rubin]

Here we are a long time ago.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was a long time ago.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hit some of the opening snapshot mailbag.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. Really quickly. Submissions zipping right through. Okay. We got an email from a couple people saying this is their first Game of Thrones thing they've ever watched.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love it that they're like, listeners of our podcast and they're like, Game of Thrones has been too intense or violent sounding or all this stuff for me. But it seemed like this one, you guys talked about the tone being a little different. Seemed like this one could be one that I could get into. And then they're like, can I now watch Game of Thrones? And then we actually heard from one listener who was like, and I tried to start watching Game of Thrones, and it's really brutal.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you think about this?

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I think there is enough sort of sweet and uplift and emotional resonance with the brutality of Game of Thrones to make it something that we think about fondly. And, you know, it's not Just like a shock and awe experience. There is just, like, beautiful language and absolutely just profound emotional connection to certain characters and character arcs. So. But at the same time, like, several of the people wrote in are like real Tolkien heads and they're really feeling.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like Professor's always welcome.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, they're really feeling like the Tolkien, the sort of Samwise Gamgee sort of energy off of this show. And I understand and a lot of Tolkien people don't necessarily. Doesn't necessarily one to one, translate to Game of Thrones. So, like, if Game of Thrones is not for them, they're not wondering what was.

[Mallory Rubin]

Aragorn's Tales.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, they're not. Like, George, if Game of Thrones is not for you, I think that's fine. But like, we will always advocate for several seasons of Game of Thrones as some of the best television that's ever existed. But if it's too nasty and brutal for you, then that's fine. Don't watch it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I never know how to guide people with things like this. Much like when we get mailbag questions, sometimes we hear from the bad babies about, like, when is an appropriate age for somebody to read something? I never know. I feel like I have a genuinely really bad barometer for stuff like this. And so I'm always reluctant to try to guide anybody. But I think. I think you. You captured it well. There is so much heart and cheer and levity and joy and beauty and wonder, along with a lot of really harsh realities. But, you know, as we'll talk about today, I think one of the reasons that, you know, we got like, the Balor moment in this episode, one of my favorite moments in the canon. I couldn't wait for this episode. Iconic. But there's some heavy shit and some intense shit and some heavy ideas in this episode and, like, reminders and in.

[Joanna Robinson]

These novellas, like, that's something we've been saying from the start that the tone is different, but this is not like, reminders.

[Mallory Rubin]

What this is exactly. This is a grim world still. So what else do we have here?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Jordan said, just wanted to say since you recommended it was safe to read the first half of the Hedgehog, I just wanted to give a friendly reminder that there is a massive House of the Dragon spoiler.

[Mallory Rubin]

So this, my blanket take on this is. That is also true if you watch Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones. And this is just one of the realities of the way that George in the text and then of course, the adapters who are bringing these stories to the screen sprinkle in connective tissue across the world. You may have no reason, absolutely no reason, to anticipate that you will hear about something from elsewhere in the canon by a century, two centuries, and then there it is. Somebody says something, usually often Joffrey. You kind of have to make peace with that. I think that is like a difficult thing to navigate entirely. But you could just avoid it completely if you wanted.

[Joanna Robinson]

Good shout from Jordan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nicole.

[Joanna Robinson]

I could save this for later, but.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just needed it here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Up top. Nicole wrote this email.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really? I mean, really. His name is Humphrey Beesbury. Say his name. Will he die as he lived in scripted obscurity? I see you, Humphrey Beesbury. I missed you at first, but found you on a rewind trying to count to seven.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Nicole sent that email.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nicole, I just need to hide behind the listeners. I am also outraged at the mistreatment of Humphrey Beesbury. Justice for the Bees.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's not making up for the very limited screen time. Complete lack of any spoken words. With the mustache.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is the mustache that I'm doing out of work?

[Mallory Rubin]

What is he dyeing that with?

[Joanna Robinson]

Honey.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is why you're you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Honey does lighten your hair. I've done it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. When I lived in Hawaii, I would put honey in my hair to lighten it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, when I lived in Hawaii. What a flex.

[Joanna Robinson]

But just like the Beesbury of course are using.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not when you were in Lottie's Honey Cult in yellow jackets. Or also then.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also then I'm still in that cult. Okay. Nick wrote this, which felt very appropriate for the ringer with the insinuation that Lord Ashford is offering up to his sons to throw their joust to help recoup the money he spent overspent for his tourney. Lord Ashford has to be kicking himself for not having a heads up to properly market for the greatest fight card in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. Imagine the proclamation posted in every town. Targaryen versus Targaryen. Foss versus Fossilay Apple Wars.

[Mallory Rubin]

Here we are.

[Joanna Robinson]

First trial by seven in over a hundred years. Don King couldn't have put together such a bout. And Lord Ashford could at the very least break even had he known what was in store for the main event of his tournament.

[Mallory Rubin]

So incredible. Don King reference and a Bhad Bhab email here on the House of Are.

[Joanna Robinson]

You Love it and I understood it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Good. There we go.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was a big boxing fan. No, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just kind of absorbing it via osmosis.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Makes sense. I think that Dunk, knowing as he did from Plummer, that Lord Ashford was facing dire financial circumstance. This should have been how he worked for more time, you know, because when.

[Joanna Robinson]

It'S like, oh, wait till dawn.

[Mallory Rubin]

We must travel seven at dawn. And it's like, what? Like, I need time for my pregame ritual. I need to stretch. I need to hydrate. Also, I need to recruit. Need to do some recruiting, some rest, perhaps a nosh.

[Joanna Robinson]

And if you've been like Lord Ashford.

[Mallory Rubin]

You need to get the Ashford on the side.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Draft Kings, the Fanduel. The, like, you know, Fanduel here at the Ringer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fanduel only.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry? Fanduel only.

[Mallory Rubin]

Our partner.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fanduel. No, for ads. Except for the paid ad for fanduel.

[Mallory Rubin]

Partner Got it. When Lord Ashford was forced by Aryan to crawl under the table looking for a rogue walnut. You think he found any coin down there?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm sure he did. He's searching every sofa trying to find a copper. Okay, and last but not least, this is, with love and respect, a moment to talk to our dear listeners about sending us AI slop. I just want to let you all know, at home, I'm the one who reads all the emails, and I think people know pretty clearly how I feel about AI.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so when people send us, like, AI generated art, or in the case of weekend, I'm not trying to single this person out, but someone sent. Someone sent a, like, fully arranged version of Alice with three fingers. And it's the kind of thing that I've gotten in the past from people who have actually, like, sort of, like, put together pieces of music and sent, like, the files over via listener email and stuff like that. Like, when we get art that people have made, we're just, like, on the moon. It's so cool. You send me AI stuff. I'm not. I'm not reading it, I'm not watching it. I'm not listening to it. It's going straight in the trash. I am, unfortunately, the gatekeeper of the email, and that is my stance. So don't waste your time with it. That's all I'm saying. I'm just trying to save you time. AI is not. AI Generated stuff is not welcome in our inbox. But you are always welcome in our inbox, and we love you very much. Hobbits and dragonsmail.com Astonishing portion of the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Super bowl commercials this year were prey.

[Joanna Robinson]

I heard. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right. On that note, is it time to dive?

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Damn. Fucking deep. Like, Sir Arlen level deep.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a great gesture. Can you. Carlos, can you gif that thankfully my.

[Mallory Rubin]

Water bottle and computer are probably blocking it.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's many angles in this room.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's true. All right, it's time for the deep dive.

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This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi, fi, phone, tv, mobile services plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Scout Motors. You don't change the game by standing on the sidelines. You do it by building something new. Iconic in the 70s and reimagined for today. The all new Scout Terra and Scout Traveler are engineered from the ground up with advanced capability and bold ingenuity. Build brand new for what's next. Opposing defenses take note. Join the wait [e-mail] Concept vehicles not available for sale. Joining the waitlist does not guarantee purchase. Visit scoutmotors.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs. Who just dropped a game changing sandwich. The French dip. Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever since I was living on the east coast in la. I think to me this versus the cheesesteak, the French dip, no contest, way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order by the way if you want it delivered because they usually put the au jus in the special little container you can pour it on. Knock yourself out. The French tip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at Firehouse Subs. Limited time at participating Firehouse Subs restaurants while supplies last.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's start where the episode starts. Dunk awaiting his justice. This was another, yet another episode with like a really compelling, really scintillating either visual or auditory element at the open and close of the episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

And you're not talking about shits and farts and piss or anything like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

We will talk about farts eventually because it is a night of the Seven Kingdoms and so we could not make it through an entire episode without a very prominent fart.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, Sarah Dina Smith. As we talked about last week, she directed last week's episode this week's episode, and we'll be back for the finale. And I just think she's incredible, and I hope she's heavily involved in the next season. This.

[Mallory Rubin]

Initial glimpse of what just looks like the constellations in the night sky. And then we come into focus and pan a little bit and realize it's the glistening stone of this cell in which Dunk is waiting as prisoner, awaiting his fate. And this idea of only mere episodes and mere days for Dunk ago kind of justifying this, the absence of the pavilion. Right. Yeah, sure, trees leak, but the canopy of those leaves is all I need. You know, from a falling star brings luck to those who see it. So the luck is ours alone to this grim circumstance.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was also thinking about the quote from the book when he sees the inn for the first time. Right. And he says when he was smaller, used to wonder what it would be like to live in such a place. To sleep every night with a roof over your head and wake up every morning with the same walls wrapped around you. So to go from that, like, how comforting that would be to, like, how trapped.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Confining and dire and harrowing it is. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You mentioned Sarah Dina Smith, who is just crushing it, directing these episodes. The guest on the official pod this week. Shout out, Jason. Shout out, Greta. Greta loved this insight into another element of the visual scape in this sequence because we were both really captivated by that constellation effect. But here's what Sarah Dina Smith said about the window behind Dunk. The window in the prison cell reminded me of a crown. Ellipses framing Dunk as if he were a king, but more like a fool, really, than a true king. Someone playing at being powerful. So the idea of that image behind him and how inspiring that was when she saw the setting, I just thought was, like, a really cool little detail.

[Joanna Robinson]

This was so validating to me because there's an image that happens way later that I want to talk about for a second, right. Where I was like, am I overthinking this? And then when she said she framed the window that way, I was like, maybe I'm not. And so it's like when he comes into the tourney ground at dawn, right before he sees who's there. And it's not the shot where you can see his shield and the tourney ground. That's a great one because, like, the sunset on his shield and the dawning gray on the field are sort of mirrored for us. And that's like a very beautiful image. But when he walks through the threshold onto the tourney field. He's framed in this, like, portal. There's, like a portal or a stone portal around him, and then there's, like an Ashford sun sort of chevron thing behind him, Right? And I was looking at it, I was like this to me. And, you know, I'm not an expert, but I, like, dabble a little. That, to me, looked like a classic, like, Tarot card framing. Oh, I love that. And so I texted Diana, my best friend, who knows this shit, by myself, who is an expert, right? And I sent her the photo. I was like, does this look like a Tarot card to you? And she's like, yeah. I was like, help me articulate. Articulate. Why? So this is what she said.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love this.

[Joanna Robinson]

She said. In the traditional Rider Waite Tarot deck, there are a handful of cards that show a singular person doing one specific motion or gesture. They are often framed around a chair or a gateway or an arch such. Such that your eye is drawn to the single person rather than the art and the activity flowing around them. It also makes them appear as kind of a gatekeeper for whatever portal they're in front of. Someone you have to face to get past someone or some concept you have to respect to get past. You can see it with the emperor, the high priestess, the hierophant, the king of swords. I think Dunk's pose really echoes the Rider Waite art style. It's framing him in a similar way. Like, he's posing to express one single facet of the human journey. Maybe doubt, maybe confusion, maybe none of this. And they just wanted to make him look epic and medieval. And invoking the art style of ancient Tarot makes anything look epic and medieval. But I just, like, love that idea.

[Mallory Rubin]

Doubt and confusion, certainly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. And that, like crossing a threshold, which we always love to talk about, but also, if you think about. I don't think. No, it wouldn't be because he comes in on a horse. It's not the same portal that Baelor comes through. But this idea that, like, all of the people on the field here have to get past this idea that Dunk is presenting of the true. You know, like, he's the one true knight. That's who he is. When I saw that, like, frame, I was like, the knight. That's who he is. And all of these other people who fail to live up to this or are trying to live up to this have to sort of confront that ideal. And again, Sarah may not have had any of that in her mind, but, like, when I heard her Say this window is a crown. I was like, then a doorway can be a tarot card if we want it to be. So I just think. I think there are just so many stunning visuals in this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was really cool too to hear her talk about the way that the shot. We're gonna talk for quite a while later about Raymond's knighting and Dunk's reluctance and how that ties to the long running fan speculation and the Arlen shrug we get. But Sarah Dina Smith talking about. I'm paraphrasing, but I think I have this right, that the crane camera just happened to pass above Peter Claffey and he looked up and then she was like, this is perfect. So the combination of like very deliberate and intentional choices and then what you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Find and then be like, what do you find?

[Mallory Rubin]

Which is so meta for like the story that we're watching here. I just love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I loved that seeing that moment in the episode. Because if you watch the behind the scenes that they did where they paired episode two and three behind the scenes, the moment where Peter Calaffey was talking about how the statues of the knights look like wizard's chest from Harry Potter, you see, can see the B roll from the set of him kneeling and it's. They had him kneel to pose like one. Like he's right next to one of those statues for reference. And you don't see it framed in the episode. But I was like, oh, that's the moment where they're like, we need you to kneel in the exact pose of these statues that we have around here. And like, so the fact that like in that moment the camera caught him like looking up is beautiful. We love an accidental stroke of genius. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And especially because he's clearly wearing the armor from this moment in time. But then you cut to Arlen from the past.

[Joanna Robinson]

It.

[Mallory Rubin]

It gets your mind racing in this delicious way that connects to this larger reminder that we're in Dunk's point of view that we've been talking about all season. Like, well, what are we really witnessing that is true and pure? What is his recollection? Where is he in the present? Where is he in the past? I thought in general, this episode had a couple borderline dreamlike and hallucinatory moments. The cut from after he leaves the Great hall to all of a sudden, one frame later, he's in the rain. Moments like that. Obviously you had called on the trailer pod that he would be holding the head of a puppet and he was very spooky, very nightmare Fuel. Even though Florian is a figure to inspire. Oh, a fool can also be a night. We find a lot of heart in that. But there's something so like disorienting and unmooring about it. Just a really visually delicious episode and a thematically rich one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Audio match of Tanzel's fingerbone snapping and Steely Pate's wagon. Yeah, it's just really, really high level stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff in general. Just seeing Dunk in a cell, obviously, for Thrones viewers, it's not a rare thing to see a character that we have become very invested in just trapped in a prison cell or characters we are not rooting for. Trapped in a prison cell. Was somebody most like top of mind for you? Was it Ned receiving Varys visits? Was it Tyrion in his sky cell, or Tyrion and the cells in the Red Keep? Was it Cersei and Margaery and Loras? Anybody like, who came most of mine to you? I think for me it was Ned. Just because the idea of the madness of Mercy, which is a famous Ned association, feels very Dunk core as well and very connected to this question from Baelor of Like, does he need to intend harm to do it?

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that. I think as we talked about on Talk of the Thrones, Oberyn so top of mind for us here. So I think, like Tyrion and Oberyn, that's just a baby. I will be your champion.

[Mallory Rubin]

The grabbing the torch. Yeah, it's just the best. It's just the best. This rat has a name. We talked about the rat on Talk to Thrones. Naturally. We didn't miss the rat. We love a rat. We have Preston. Nope, he's not here. It's like what I pointed out away from the camera last season. Like, quote, yeah, Preston will be back for Preston will return for Avengers. Preston will return as well. Shanice, apparently, is the name that this rat has. Talk about a quick shot and an image that gives us a visual association and a character beat as well. For Dunk, this is just such a tender, gentle moment. He's like, boy, I am alone. I had Arlen, then I had Egg. Now I have no one. Let me pet and stray horses.

[Joanna Robinson]

Now I have a rat.

[Mallory Rubin]

I loved when he goes to Thunder and Chestnut later and he's like, oh, lads, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

And Raymond's like, are you talking to your horses?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like, raymond, you have no idea. You have no idea.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do they talk back to you on the rat front? I was thinking about how when he told Egg in episode three that his job in Flea Botting used to be to, like, get stuff for the bullet brown.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, like, how many rats didn't like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some of the specifics that he mentioned there?

[Joanna Robinson]

How many rats did he, like, maybe, you know, bring for? And now he's just like, I don't have to do that anymore. We can just.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're my only companion. Blood and cheese personal fave. The rat cook. One of the great tales in Game of Thrones Harrenhal torture scene. That's a dismaying rat association in the canon. We loved our Larys theories during Hot D and hearing from the Bhad Bhabies about that. So this idea of the rat, you know, Hati has had a lot of fun with this, like, as a visual representation of the filth and the rot of the realm. Right. The secrets, the anguish. What are they witnessing when they scurry? So there's something about just like the rat as the only one to witness Dunk until Egg walks in. But also just then, you're kind of like, you're unmoored in a really fun way when Dunk is gentle and you would expect something horrible to happen there. I love that contrast. But then there is another friend because Egg comes in and he's kitted out. He's dropping a fit, as the kids say. He's a little royal princeling for all to see. Tar colors on the doublet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something I found out this week is the reason his robe and cloak are so insanely long and stuff like that is that they fit him knowing that he was a growing boy. And they're like, we just want to make this work for however he does. And the great news for them is that unlike the cast of Percy Jackson, Dexter seems to be growing right in increments.

[Mallory Rubin]

No Mike Wheeler, like, you're taller up.

[Joanna Robinson]

His dad is kind of a short king. So I wonder if they, like, looked. Looked at that were like, we can. We can keep this kid around for a minute. We'll see.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting Dunk's face here. It's not just the finery, the garb, but, you know, just as was the case at the end of episode three, Egg is telling the servants what to do. He is undeniably in power, and Dunk has to see it. He gets the tray of food, just ravenously tucks into the bread. And then Egg begins to apologize. He says his uncle told him that he had to beg for Dunk's forgiveness. And Dunk is like the heir to the Iron Throne. And I love this because, you know, we talked through the family tree when we were covering episode three, the last couple pods. But there's something about the character saying it out loud like that, you know, a little. Like a little of the last of us. You can't heal something unless you're brave enough to say it out loud. But also, as is the case for much of this exchange, Dunk forcing Egg to own what he did.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

You didn't just lie to me. We're gonna talk about lies in a second here. You lied to me about being a Targaryen. Your uncle is the heir to the Iron Throne, your grandpa is the king. Say that out loud. And let's just sit with that for a minute. So it's like, you know, two seconds in the show. But I just. And in the novella as well. But I love that.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, but all of this back and forth, right? Like. Like saying you never meant to lie. Yeah, but you did about everything. Starting with your name. And like this idea. They're just so human in this moment. They're just like a man who's constantly insecure about being the fool, being duped, being too dumb to navigate this world, and then a genuinely a little boy. He's a prince, but he's a little boy. And so when he like, tears up a bit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Which was incredible acting. But not like, you know, bawling his eyes out, but just sort of that, that, that shiny eyed. I've been caught and I'm. I didn't think I did anything wrong. Yeah, of course you did. That's why you lied about it. You know what I mean? Like, I just think that whole exchange is so human and so. And Dunk's hurt and his defensiveness in this scene and then how quickly in the next scene he's defending Egg. Like, he needs to say this. Yes, he needs to say all of this. He needs to feel all of this. But when push comes to shove, the moment that Baelor is just like a little hard on Egg, he's like, he's a good boy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's one of those great. You can only be hurt this deeply if you really actually care about someone reminders. I thought the performances from both of them in this scene were really, really lovely. I think that Dunk saying, yeah, but you did about everything starting with your name is rich and interesting to parson a lot of different respects. I think that the what's in a name focus has been present across this entire season. Right. That con about Three Fingered Alice last episode. Like, was Alice really her name? Very tied to this idea of Tall tales that become legend. Is Tencel too tall? Not too tall for me. Like, what does it mean to say to call yourself this thing, or for somebody else to call you this thing? From Dunk to Duncan the Tall, all the people who helped him, as you noted earlier in the season. Say that thing out loud. Stand up a little bit higher. Be tall. God's gave you tallness. Be tall. Egg. On to. To Egg. And of course, yes, it is a lie, but it's also like.

[Joanna Robinson]

And.

[Mallory Rubin]

And to be clear, I mean, I don't mean to do too much PR for Egg here. We leave the PR to Chris, doing it for Aryan on these pods. But, you know, when he. When all of this happens, when they meet at the end and he makes his move, it's not like he's thinking, I'll tell him my name is Egg, and it'll be a sign of affection. But now, days into their relationship, episodes into our experience with them, you have this beat where you're like, well, who gave him the name Egg? As we talked about last time, it was Maester Aemon. It was his brother, the closest person to him in the world. There's an aspect of it now where it's like, actually, you're calling me the thing that the people who love me call me. Like, it can be. It can. There can be a bridge to closeness there and to an embrace, which, you know, I just love these two so much. So I kind of want to think about it that way. But then, of course, there's the fact that Aegon is not just a targ name. It is the.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's the king's name.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the dark name.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not the current king, but it is the name of a Targaryen king.

[Mallory Rubin]

How many Aegons have been king?

[Joanna Robinson]

Four.

[Mallory Rubin]

Four Aegons. So they are, of course, four Aegons.

[Joanna Robinson]

Four. Four Aegons.

[Mallory Rubin]

The conqueror, Aegon ii, who we are spending quite a bit of time with right now in House of the Dragon.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tom Glencarna.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we're not going to say anything right now about Aegon iii. That's not something that is possible to talk about right now. And then, of course, Aegon the Fourth, the unworthy, who made a few mistakes, including siring many bastards, the great bastards, whom he then legitimized on his deathbed, gave one of them Daemon Blackfyre, the fabled ancestral Valyrian steel sword of House Targaryen. And then a little thing called the Blackfyre Rebellion. I'll be out of it, lads. Happened. There are plenty of other characters named Aegon who never became king. But it's always a name that carries heft. Right. That brings some sort of expectation. Either you as the person named Aegon have or that other people have of you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's really interesting that the fourth son of the fourth son would be named Aegon. You know what I mean? Like, that's a real Maekar move where he's like.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it's Aegon totally. But it's like also a Balor move to not name one of his kids Aegon, you know, Valar Matarys. Like the fact that as we've tracked across this season, we're in sort of a different moment in targ history in this stretch of the family tree is interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like it shouldn't have been available almost.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. But it was.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so that tells us something about.

[Joanna Robinson]

All of them, by the way. Not that that stopped like Alicent and Rhaenyra.

[Mallory Rubin]

Of course not. Did it lead to any confusion? Maybe elsewhere you were offended that I put this in the doc, but I couldn't help myself. One of I think the great moments the television canon to point to for like, okay, if your name is Aegon, what are people going to do with that? Our guy, Chris's guy, Hobert Hightower in House of the Dragon Season one, Episode three, when Aegon is like a baby still. Hail, hail Aegon the Conqueror. Bab. Second of his name. It's like, bro, he's not king at that point. Second of his name.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you k?

[Mallory Rubin]

But he was reminding people by. By invoking Conqueror that he was named for the conqueror, that it's the name of a king. And then of course that brings us to like one of our shared favorites and the fandom's favorite passages from A Clash of Kings. This is the Clash of Kings. This is an all timer. This is one of the things that Dany sees in House of the Undying. Rhaegar connects to, you know, basically the main character of the entire story, Jon.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jon Snow.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also named Aegon. Remember when people were speculating in real time, like, what would Jon's name be? I had really talked myself into Jaehaerys at one point. It was like, of course it was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Gonna be Aegon, right? What else could it be?

[Mallory Rubin]

The man had her brother's hair, the passage goes, but he was taller and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. Aegon, he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. What better name for a king? Will you make a song for him? The woman Asked, he has a song, the man replied, he is the prince that was promised and his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hey, that's the name of the show.

[Mallory Rubin]

What did Rhaegar do? This is obviously all connected to the prophecy. Aegon's Song of Ice and Fire. The dagger, which we got a lot of great emails about and we'll talk about across the pod and have been.

[Joanna Robinson]

Talking about mostly in the spoiler section, I think today. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But just this question that we've been tracking across Hot D and just in general of like, who knows what went, who knows what? And then what do they do with that information? So this idea that we love to bring up with Rhaegar of like, you know, he found something in the scrolls and said, I must be a warrior. Okay. He's like, I gotta. It's my responsibility to like, produce the prince that was promised, I guess.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I've decided there has to be three of them, so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, boy, these characters.

[Joanna Robinson]

So much for my vows that I swore and swore.

[Mallory Rubin]

They make you swear and swear, though, you know, so many vows. Dunk ass egg. If it was a gift.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is so sad. To me, this is like full of devastating.

[Mallory Rubin]

They both look miserable here and I felt miserable because this was heartbreaking.

[Joanna Robinson]

The donkey and Lynn was in particular, like, really tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

You would have squired for a donkey.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Brutal. Brutal. The fact that across all of these episodes, Donk is very much like, must you mock me? That's what he says to Red and Benny and Daisy in episode one. And like, is there any measure of a fool? I fail to meet this recurring refrain that he is, like, worried that he's out of his league. You know, he's gonna say else. This episode basically, like this not knowing my place idea is this thing that haunts him.

[Joanna Robinson]

There are these times in the adaptation because as we've mentioned a few times, Dunk in the book is a teenager, not a 30 something year old man. Right. And so, like, there are times when that adaptive choice feels a little off. And then there's a time like this where like his insecurity about his intelligence, it's one thing if he's a teenager, but if he's a 30 year old man who's been told by Sir Arlen his entire life, you know, dunk the lung, thick as a castle wall. He's, you know, it's just something hurts my feelings much more about this, like, man being like, am I too much of a fool? Carrying a fool to navigate this world?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. You know, holding Flory on The fool's head in his hands and thinking about hopefully the nightly aspect is certainly the fool aspect.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Plumber approaching him for the bet because he's like, you're a mark. All of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

All of it. It is.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's really sad. Egg explains to him, I was supposed to squire for my brother Darren. He's gonna have a really meaningful scene in this episode. Stay tuned. But, like, he's a shit knight. Then I found myself thinking, kind of rules. Darren is just so. Such a good character.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Remember during the trailer pause when I was absolutely panicked that we weren't gonna get this show, Darren, and you were.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's, like, literally impossible to make this show without that. The fact that Egg calls Darren a shit knight made me think about how he asked Dunk, was Arlen a knight? And, like, what does it mean for Egg to be a knight? Not just like, oh, he knows all these lordly names. Now we know why he knows all these knights. He's the heraldry. Etc. But, like, the idea that somebody so close to him, he was supposed to squire for, he was supposed to learn from is like, I'm actually just gonna shave your head so we can hide out. And I don't want to do this. I gotta.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. But I gotta shout out my guy Darren, because we love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

We love him. We love Darren the Drunken slash Darren the Dreamer here on the House of.

[Joanna Robinson]

R. But I think what. What should be. I don't think it's clear in the story, but, like, they ran away. And he's like, they'll never look for us right by the Turning Grounds. And that's why they picked that in, because he's like, they run away from Summerhall and they could have gone anywhere, but he's like, we're gonna go right nearby, actually, because they'll never think to look for us there. And, you know, I mean, you know, Maekar did. Maekar found him.

[Mallory Rubin]

He did. He did. It's like, is anybody dropping golden dragons for cups of wine? That should just cost a couple. And then just like, is that happening anywhere?

[Joanna Robinson]

Snoring in puddles of wine? Is anybody lifting their head and just.

[Mallory Rubin]

Saying, I dreamed of you to strangers? Is that happening anywhere? No. That's like the GPS of the Westerosi period.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought it was interesting. Egg does have a couple beats where he's like, I didn't. But he's never, like. He reads the room effectively.

[Joanna Robinson]

He never pulls rank as, like, I'm a prince. How dare you? Talk to me that way or any of that. Right? You know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And he also is never like, hey, bro. Like, yeah, I did lie. And, yeah, I leaned in and I pounced when the opportunity presented itself. But you're the one who thought I was the stable boy. I actually never told you that. And by the way, that's what Arian did to you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wasn't there for him from King's Landing, but I said I wasn't from Flea's Bot. You know, like, there's so many ways.

[Mallory Rubin]

In which specifically the CV checked out.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's so many little loopholes that he wriggled his little bald head through.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, you know, the novella, you know, obviously this is conveyed on Dunk's face and just the kind of the dismay, but also, like, the. There is much more in the novella. Because we're inside of his head to the full point of just him, like, feeling like such an idiot for not having realized who Egg was. That is definitely more prominent in this sequence in the book, in part because he's like, oh, they all have purple eyes. I really missed that, huh? But Egg does say, yeah, why would.

[Joanna Robinson]

He feel like an idiot? You've been calling him an idiot for, like, in our spoiler section for this entire season. I mean, every time we're in the spoiler section before the reveal, you were like, he's got purple eyes, Dunk. Yeah, dumb, dumb.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, it is wild to not notice the purple eyes in the book. Obviously not a thing in show land. And so it's a little bit more forgivable. But, you know, they. They made Darren's hair not full targ silver, but, like, a little blonder in the show than it's supposed to be. He's, like, not quite as, like, light brown, but Egg, basically, in the book, he's just like, I've got Arian's hair. Yeah, I've got Maekar's hair. Like, I got the real true silver stuff. If I hadn't, like, if, if. If I didn't have a shaved head, there is nobody who would not realize that I was a Targaryen. Let's talk about this. Of course you did. That's why you lied. Reply from Dunk. I have kind of like a larger question for you here, which is, I guess, about us as readers and viewers, but also a little bit more about Dunk as a character at this point. You know, we're going to talk later in the pod about the Was Dunk knighted? Question and a lot of the textual evidence that's Here in this episode and this stretch of the story, this is the part of the novella where he invokes in his internal monologue the words monstrous lie when seeing a shared tie between him and Aegon. Of course you did. That's why you lied. Like a lie is such an offensive thing to Dunk Eggs lie here, which hurts him. Darren's lie. This idea that Darren has lied about Dunk being the robber knight. Dunk is a liar.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And how is he reconciling all of these aspects?

[Joanna Robinson]

On behalf of my client, Dunk in the Tall, I would like to say.

[Mallory Rubin]

I say it with love.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think there's something to do with, like, Arlen teaching him about what the definition of a hedge knight is and the fact that the hedge knight operates under their own moral compass. It's not what the Lord tells you to do. You do what you think is right. And so there are ways in which. And I'm just justifying a lie, but there are ways in which Arlen has emboldened him to think of, well, I know what's right and wrong, and so in what ways am I not? Or. Or I also believe that he believed that Arlen did intend to. To make him a knight. And then there's a way in which, like, if I do it, I am it. Like, if I show up and I win this tourney, then who can say I'm not a knight? You know, and so. But I like that inherent conflict inside of Duncan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Me too.

[Joanna Robinson]

The most honorable character, you know, probably that George ever wrote. And the fact that, like, his entire story is based on this very human flaw, I think is delicious.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree completely. And that's. That's why I thought it was worth us highlighting that dissonance and that contradiction for a second, because it is. And we've been tracking these aspects of Dunk and just in general, the characters who are, you know, positioned as the heroes in the story, it is just much more interesting than Dunk never doing anything wrong, never doing anything morally questionable. When he says this thing to Egg here, it is like, I know that lying is wrong because my moral compass, I have the moral clarity to know that. And yet I have done this thing and for the right reasons because I want to be in a position to help people. But also, like, I have my aspirations and I have my ambition, and all of that is in the stew there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Last week, while you said stew instead of brew Wild. But last week when he told Raymond that he was, like, basically still thinking about Plumber's offer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Highlighted that right, where it's just sort of like. It would be way more boring if he's like, no, that's wrong. Like constant.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would never consider it. I would never at all be inclined to consider the temptation of what I could gain from.

[Joanna Robinson]

But. Yeah, but that temptation. And then what Dunk decides to do with the constant temptation that he's faced inside of these novellas is what is part of what's so compelling about him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Speaking of compelling, I thought that Dunk, that quick beat of him saying, cause he sees him crying, tearing up, as we noted, dry your eyes. Which was like not outright cruel, but definitely he's like, yes, you know I am.

[Joanna Robinson]

But very fatherly. Honestly, for sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's like a kind of like scolding, like, dry your eyes. First of all, it just like makes us feel Eggs age, right. Makes us feel how young he is, which is an important thing, as you guys are.

[Joanna Robinson]

And having him like sort of tucked in the corner with his like his little knees up and stuff like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Flopping down to the wall.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, just sort of like he looks so small, as he always does in comparison to Dunk, but he just looks. Yeah. So young.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that. Paired with the strier eyes is like, Dunk. Oh, we couldn't. Well, Princelyn couldn't be disappointed. And there is again that age aspect of of. Well, of course this like 9 year old kid was excited to go do this thing and then felt sad that he couldn't and like behaved in a way that frankly, I don't think people ever age out of, which is like being selfishly motivated to do the thing that feels right to you, but with the tears part of it. So there's the like, okay, you are. That reminds me that you are a spoiled rich kid. We're gonna get some real spoiled rich kid stuff from Arian and you don't. You've not lived a life where you always had to think about the way that your decisions impact other people. Now part of what's cool about the time that Duncan Egg have already spent together is that it wasn't the reason that Egg made the decision he made in the first place to go with Dunk. That was because he wanted to be a squire. He wanted to go to Asher Meadow, he wanted to be an attorney. But in just days, can I stay with you? I think I could be quite happy in a place like this. So even though he didn't know Dunk at first, the impact that Dunk has had on him and that this experience of being among the commoners and the small folk and hedge knights has had on him is significant and supreme and genuine. Genuine.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's also like a sour note version of their previous episode's teasing of like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, I only like soft foods and lovely grapes.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's disgusting. You know, like, that sort of teasing is now just sort of like, oh, we can't have the princeling. Sort of disappointed. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What did I. Boy, I fed a. I fed a prince.

[Joanna Robinson]

Salt beef.

[Mallory Rubin]

Salt beef. Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, I taught a prince the whip. Stitch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Whip stitch. And he was excited to learn it, wasn't he? The. The response that Egg had to seeing what Aryan did to Humphrey Harding and his horse last episode also tears. And Dunk did not respond. He was like, you know, laughing a lot. You got to be prepared. Bad things happen. I might. Something terrible might befall me. A mishap in a. Like, it's not a mishap. But he wasn't like, dry your eyes. Right. The tone here is driven by Dunk's personal hurt. And he's like, I'm gonna make Egg feel some things here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

But we are just scenes away from Dunk sobbing his eyes out with Steely Pete.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's just the rain on his face.

[Mallory Rubin]

There is a lot of rain. So I just liked the way that the tonal shift in what Dunk says to Egg really shows us how wounded he is and that. That pain, and this is, again, just really human. The pain that he's feeling is driving what he says more than the actual reality of the C. And the fact that he saw these commonalities between them. Oh, you mentioned your dead mom. Okay. We're both orphans. You said you're from King's Landing. We're both from Flea Bottom. And those were ultimately, like, presumptions that Egg leaned into and allowed, but presumptions on Dunk's part, because he wanted to see those commonalities. He wanted to have somebody. He wanted a brother in his life.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who he could not just change something.

[Mallory Rubin]

For the way that Arlen had for him. Oh, lads.

[Joanna Robinson]

Someone to talk to. Not a horse. The dream.

[Mallory Rubin]

In case I forget to say it later, since we're talking about horses, let's just note that the reason that he finds Thunder, because here in the show, he goes just back to his Elm, right? His camp. And Thunder and Chestnut are there. But in the book, he's, like, wandering, and he's just, like, hears a horse make a sound, and he's like, that's thunder.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thunder. Because in the book, and this makes a lot more sense. Instead of just sitting in the rain under a tree, Raymond takes. Takes the horses to his tent and sits at his nice, warm tent with the horses outside.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like a 99.9 out of 100 episode for Raymond. Just an iconic showing. Pantheon stuff. The best waiting in your cloak behind someone's tree in the shadows at their camp. Very weird. Also, his laugh when Egg was like, yeah, my brother used to sneak into my room and threaten to cut off my dick and say he'd marry me and then kill me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Alien Dunk. That's like. He's like, yeah, he did, because you guys are fucking weirdos. I wouldn't laugh at that poor child's trauma, but I'm not a Targaryen racist.

[Mallory Rubin]

Raymond. Oh, my God. Raymond. Raymond. Egg apologizes again. His voice is just so quiet, so soft, so small. And then Dunk says to him, it's just a bit of bad luck we found each other, isn't it? I was Cry crush. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do we love about a chance meeting, Jo? Like, this idea that we talk a lot about, like, free will and destiny, right? The idea that, like, it is exciting when characters make choices and exhibit free will and try to determine their own future. There's a lot of that with Dunk. When fate is sprinkled in and something happens where it's like, either by a happenstance or because it was meant to, this person came into my life and we found each other and we never thought we would. And then, like, what a meaningful, beautiful thing it was.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, you think about, I mean.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, our first meeting, you and I.

[Joanna Robinson]

That wasn't a chance meeting.

[Mallory Rubin]

On the Internet and at conventions, covering.

[Joanna Robinson]

The exact same thing at a Game of Thrones convention. What a wild, crazy, crazy circumstance for us to meet each other. It's the opposite of a chance meeting.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like a beautiful thing that we love in these stories and sort of like the underbelly of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here I was thinking. I was actually thinking about this, like, obviously Tolkien, but, like, thinking about Stranger Things. It's like, what if those kids had never met 11? You know what I mean? And it's just sort of like how many lives that impacted and how many people that changed that chance meeting, you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Know, and there are. It's a great comp. Because there are obviously moments for those characters where it's like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, wish I hadn't.

[Mallory Rubin]

What if we hadn't found you in the woods, right? Or found. Stumbled upon each other in the woods.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Bob might still Be alive.

[Mallory Rubin]

Damn. Spoiler Season 2 of Stranger Things just like a hundred years ago at this point. Yeah, it was just crushing to. To hear Dunk, like, lament and bemoan Egg coming into his life when it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is especially the luck is ours, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Baylor, your guy Dunk's shoveling the bread into his mouth, and then he's like, what's gonna happen to me? And Egg is like, well, Baylor wants to see you.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he's like, oh, the heir to the throne is waiting for me. Forget the bread. Let's go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Lovely honey dip for the bread. Wonderful spices on the goat. But why don't we go now? Yeah, I've fueled up. I got my calories, my carb loaded.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Baelor's reading.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what he's reading to all my shout out again. Ashaya Freeze frame master from History Westeros podcast about Maegor's Trial of Seven. He's reading up on the trial of Seven in this history book here, which is interesting to me because it's like, it's Aryan who brings up the Trial of Seven. But, like, you know, he wasn't reading about trial by combat. He was reading about the Trial of Seven, which, like, hasn't happened in a very long time. We'll talk about some of that history a little bit later when we get to it. But, like, Baelor was like, what are all the rules and regs and permutations? If I bring up a trial by content, will Arian perhaps make our number one fanboy who, like, loves to read about the life of Maegor the Cruel? Yeah, yeah, we'll bring up the Trial by Seven. Fun fact about Maegor's tribal seven.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, went well for everyone.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's Beesbury involved, but there's always a Beesbury.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can always kind of find it a Beesbury in the corners of history.

[Joanna Robinson]

A Beesbury. Did he have any lines in that trial? I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, you know, did he shout, gods be good at any point, honestly? Probably because that was a mess.

[Joanna Robinson]

Honey bleached.

[Mallory Rubin]

I hope so. Who's to say I hope so? I just love that visual of, like, you know, we talk about Baelor and we think about Baelor and the characters talk about Baelor as a wise character, a chivalrous character, an accomplished warrior, a character who exhibits grace, but also a wise character. And so this idea of, like, yeah, it's. It's strategy, it's intention. He's prepping. He's in the moment, trying to anticipate what might happen. It's interesting that he's reading about Trial seven, I will say, because he. I do think that the scene with Arian plays as like, oh, this is getting a little bit away from this.

[Joanna Robinson]

It could play a bit more like. I was really hoping he wouldn't think of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I was really hoping he was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Too dumb to know about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which is interesting if you underestimate somebody. But just this, like, visual of him surrounded by texts and tomes that he is not hand waving, but spending time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. It's Lord Ashford's collection. And he's like, what can I learn in this downtime?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He's like, I didn't bring my armor. I'm gonna have to borrow my sons. And also, I didn't bring my mobile library, so can I pop into yours? Did it make you think of Rhaenyra just because we've spent so many scenes in Hathi with her surrounded by these scrolls?

[Joanna Robinson]

Once again, for any really fun to like, I really. In terms of rewarding freeze frames, these scrolls and manuscripts, like, freeze frame moments, like, the props department, the art direction on the show, they're just like, in there, just doing the work, putting the history down on the scrolls in illuminated style. It's really great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dunk walks toward Balor. He bends the knee. He kneels, and Balor tells him to rise. And it is. We have gotten a moment where Balor has greeted Dunk and said no harm was done. Sir Rise in episode two. And the tone is notably different here and that just kind of sets, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

It'S still like, Sir Rise is the respect is there, but it's knighting language.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kneeling in front of your sovereign and having him say sir Rise. You know, like, there's encouraging him to.

[Mallory Rubin]

Request the trial by combat in the first place. Like, all of this is through the lens of considering Dunk as a knight. How good of a knight are you?

[Joanna Robinson]

Not just that he's already considering it. I'm just saying that there's like all these little moments throughout the season and most specifically when we get to Lionel later. But, like, where Dunk was, like, kind of knighted along the way. You know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Well, that's the big. Does it really matter if Arlen didn't do it? Question when the soul of the thing is there. The lesson and the example. And also, yeah, all the mini nightings. It's delightful. Baylor's pretty somber. The mood is tense. He's somber as he tells Aegon to pour Dunk a drink and Then says like, try not to spill it on him. Tough. Feedback.

[Joanna Robinson]

The cup bearers get a lot of shit in general.

[Mallory Rubin]

They sure do. But they get to like really soak up and observe a lot of The Egg is kicked out of the scene in short order here. But this is where, as you noted in the show, Dunk comes to Egg's defense and is like, he's not gonna spill. He's a good boy. He's a good squire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dunk in general in this scene is much more like combative than he is in this scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

More assertive, more aggressive standing, pushing, charging toward Baelor.

[Joanna Robinson]

What would you have done? Like, isn't this the right thing to do? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Versus Baelor just like offering up that. Yeah, but like, I'm a prince of the realm, not a hedge knight. It is. Those subtle tweaks are very interesting in the text. It's in the earlier scene with just Dunk and Egg where Dunk begins to soften. We're both from King's Landing still, the boy said. Dunk had to laugh. Yes, you from the top of Aegon's Hill and me from the bottom. That's not so far, sir. And then of course, the quote that we've already alluded to and that we will be coming back to later. Dunk looked at him thoughtfully. He knew what it was like to want something so badly that you would tell a monstrous lie just to get near it. I thought you were like me, he said. Might be you are, only not in the way I thought. Just one of the all time passages and moments in terms of understanding Dunk and what that points to about Dunk and the knight in question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, the monstrous lie is just really one of the biggest clues that we have.

[Mallory Rubin]

Truly is real. It's the equivalent of the sound effect that Carlos puts in the pod when you're getting to the spoiler section. It's like, can't really miss this. He knew what it was like to tell the monstrous lie. This rebuke here from Baylor is what softens Duncan. It's kind of nice to see the audience for that. The affection back on public display, but just the gratitude on a right. He's like, not just you defended me, but I have you back. Right? It's just such a lovely little moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

You've been doing a great job tracking like the lessons that Egg is learning and like what to think about what Maekar has taught him versus what he's absorbing from Dunk. So like, mostly about horses. To see Dunk give him this grace in this Moment. Yes. And to say, oh, you can be gracious. Even if someone has wronged you and put you in peril, you can be gracious. And then I think most especially when he sees Baelor ride in at the end. And this question, you have it, I think conservatively 100 times this note.

[Mallory Rubin]

What makes a knight of knights?

[Joanna Robinson]

What makes a knight of knights?

[Mallory Rubin]

I did him the last time. Right. I might have to get this tattooed at the end of the day, because.

[Joanna Robinson]

What makes a knight a knight? Is your constant question. And the answering question I've been bringing up all season is, what makes a Targaryen a Targaryen? And so for Aegon to see Baelor come in at the end and say, oh, a Targaryen can be that. It doesn't just have to be. It doesn't have to be Aerion, it doesn't have to be Maekar, it doesn't have to be Aemon, like fucking up to the Citadel, fucking off to the Citadel, which is like a. You know, we love Aemond, but like that's. He's abdicating his entire Targaryen identity to do that basically. And he's like, one can be a leader. What makes a Night of Night? What makes a Targaryen a Targaryen? What makes a leader a leader? You know, and these are all things that Egg is sort of learning on the go.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that, especially in this family, this group of people, detention from within. Something that we'll be talking about a lot today. Something we talk about a lot when covering the Targaryens across various points in the timeline. And so whether it is inside your own house and dynasty or across the realm, if you were a prince of the realm, like the capacity to forgive. It's a very like Jaehaerys idea, you know, I love that observation. It's really.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

To think that this could be such a pivotal moment for Egg to observe, that is such a great shout out on the like, really. This is an all time line front.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's interesting that you really. I mean it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love this one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Say the line and then I will say what I.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is Baylor replying here to what Dunk says in Egg's defense. Beat for beat, word for word from the novella. One need not intend harm to do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I mean it's a great line. It's just never stuck out to me as like you have. You're like, this is one of the best lines in the entire canon. Favorite Song of Ice and Fire. I've never really thought of it. That way, though, like, I guess because George doesn't often truck in unintentional harm, a lot of the harm that he trucks in is very intentional.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's why I like it so much. I think it introduces a note of variance that feels to me like it really rounds and flushes out the world. And first of all, I just have I mentioned before on our now eight podcasts, 10 if you count the two trailer pods about this very brief so far season of tv, that Baylor is one of my favorite characters.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you like Baylor?

[Mallory Rubin]

Just love Baelor Breakspear. Part of it is that and I think this Birdie performance is. It's everything I was hoping it would be. It's just so great. So part of it is just like Balor's wisdom, I think is really on display there in a way that I love. But I think it feels to me like it conveys a elemental Thronesian quality of like, okay, malice, negligence.

[Joanna Robinson]

Neither.

[Mallory Rubin]

Both like all of those things can wound somebody. The things that we do impact other people and sometimes in ways that we don't bother to think about or anticipate, sometimes in ways that maybe you genuinely never could. The idea that intention, I feel like I often quote the Steve Rogers like, you know, safest hands are still our own moment from Captain America Civil War when talking about intention. And I feel like so often my impulse as a reader or viewer is to gravitate to the other side of this. It's like, well, what did you intend? Was your heart in the right place? Like, then that's what matters. And I like that this idea, this line makes me think about the other side of it. Like in the real world it's not that intention isn't important a huge part of this story and the kind of like emboldening, empowering aspect of, of the hope that people find in it, that we find in it the lessons that are on display from, from Dunk Raymond Balor. And this episode in particular is like actually you deciding to give a shit try matters quite a bit. But I think an impulse that feels truly George R.R. martin Martian to me is that it's not always that clean.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

The real world is messy. The world of Westeros, the land of ice and fire, is messy. And so this novella and this show that's so full of hope and charm and wonder and lessons that we do need and that I think are probably at this time in our really fucked up world, especially like something that people are finding a lot of. Yeah. Finding a lot of heart and encouragement in which I think is awesome and great and something that we were really looking forward to ahead of the season, and we made some andor comps on that front. It also reminds us, like, I don't know, life can be really, really harsh and unfair sometimes. You know, one need not always intend harm to do it. It's like, there's just a true quality to that that I like here.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree with you, and I think it's really interesting. But when I think of George R. Martian sort of storytelling, I think of spoilers for A Song of Ice and Fire. Like, what Robb does.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, and that's like, did he intend harm to do harm? Not necessarily, but also, like, I didn't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Want to marry the Frey girl.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was told what would happen, and he did it anyway.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think that's markedly different from Egg on a pampered, privileged child not thinking through the consequences of his actions.

[Mallory Rubin]

For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Baylor's got real, like, disappointed dad energy in this stretch. Right. Tells Egg, all right, you should have come to me. You should have gotten me fetching. Dunk was no kindness, he calls it. It was not a kindness to Dunk in terms of the circumstance that he found himself in here, but it was, of course, a kindness to.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't think Tanzel would have survived the run to get.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so it's this interesting aspect, not with Baelor in particular, but just in general, of, like, Egg and Dunk both being penalized, punished to some extent for wanting to help. Another real tough world reminder. But for Dunk, is he happy to be in the cell? Is he happy to be poised to navigate the circumstance to hear what he's about to hear about what's gonna happen. Of course not. But, you know, we've talked all season about the Brienne Dunk ties. There is a, like, undeniable Brienne sancta pod about Renly in season five. Like, nothing's more hateful than failing to protect the one you love. Aspect of, like, a hundred times out of a hundred, Dunk will go help. If he had been given the choice, asked if he wanted to, he ends up in that room. Undeniably.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just who he is at his core. We talked about this a lot last week. The fact that just something internal, reflexive, instinctual takes over. If he had had the time to play out the string, he would have done the same thing. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Then we get this really electric moment. Egg is, like, very sullen, and he's like, well, I just wish the Duncan killed Arryon. And Baelor leans forward and he's got some heat behind the words and he says, arian is your brother. And the septons say, we must love our brothers. I got like chills from this. What did you make of the religious note here?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's interesting that Baelor is presented as someone with this like, religiosity in a way that especially like when you get. When you get someone like Aerion invoking the Andals and Andal tradition when Arryon is the most, I think probably like Targaryen supremacist of. Of the characters. The guy who thinks he's actually a dragon and is hiding behind an Andal tradition. The Andal traditions all created in reaction to the Dragon Lords. You know what I mean? All the, all these codes and all these, all these religions are created in. In contrast to what the Targaryens are. So for Baelor. Not Baelor the Blessed, you know, but still that name.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

To sort of lean into this idea of the faith of the Seven. And you know, when we think about House of the Dragon and Daemon Targaryen wanting to get married in like uber pagan style to Rhaenyra. Cause he's like, we're dragon Lords. Like, you know, blah, blah. This is what we lean into. And then we've got Alicent being like the light of the Seven. Oh, you know, her bullshit religiosity. You know what I mean? And it's just.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't believe she removed the dragon orgy murals. I mean, brutal.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a tragedy against art, honestly. But. But I think that this Targaryen and their flop era Targaryens not being able to lean on the dragons for their power, have to lean a bit more into sort of like what are the other sources of power? One of the sources of power is the Church. So allying yourself more closely with the Church as some other kings in Targaryen history have done, right? This is something that makes sense for Baelor in this moment to just sort of like lean into piety. But as someone who is like thoughtful and a student of history and all this sort of stuff like that, like, it makes sense to me that he would look to the septons who are learned people and sort of study at their feet. But I do think it's interesting that like Eren is your brother and the septons say we must love your brothers. Not like he's a good guy or, you know, family, you know, even a Cersei, like, you know, Family is the only thing that matters or anything like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like who is in us is our enemy.

[Joanna Robinson]

The rules say this it reminded me. It actually gave me like a, a Ned Stark moment right like one of the most famous quotes from Game of Thrones to Arya who's like sansa sucks. And he's like let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snow falls and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. Summer is a time for squabbles in winter. We must protect one another, keep each other away warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordaine is a good woman and Sansa. Sansa is your sister. You may as be as different as the moon and the sun. That was wrong. You may be as different as the sun and the moon but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her as she needs you And I need both of you. God's help me, I love it. War was easier than daughters by the way but like, but the same blood flows throw flows through both of your hearts. You have wolf blood right? And so it's like you've got dragon blood. Like the blood of the dragon gets invoked a couple times. So like we might not be. We might not have dragons anymore as Darren is quick to point out or whatever though we share this dragon blood it is important that we are of we have to love each other all.

[Mallory Rubin]

Time Ned quote I almost got that tattoo. You know the exact one. Sophie Turner has the direwolf sigil with the, the, the, the lone wolf dies with the packs but you have a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Matching tattoo with me instead instead of with Sophie Turner.

[Mallory Rubin]

Plenty of room on my body left.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wow. Cheap. One for me, one for Jason and one for Sophie Turner.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know if Sophie will be third. I would like to think of it more as a.

[Joanna Robinson]

The dragon has three heads and it's Joanna, Jason and Sophie Turner.

[Mallory Rubin]

I imagine for another tattoo I think I'll get one this year.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know I've been hearing constant ideas from you.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do have a lot. I mean we're going to do our rings our Lord of the Rings tattoo at some point.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have a couple ideas these days.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff. I like that you on the on the Baylor as a student of history front incorporated that because I think that is also undeniably present here. You know talked on talk the thrones about the you know no man is as cursed as the kinslayer reminder of just like like we side with egg. We get it. Aryan's a piece of shit. But there we have been trained inside of this world to think that this is like the foulest violation of. Of nature. But then beyond that, this is great. Keep the hot takes coming. You're.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're killing it this season.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know if your brother's Arryon Targaryen, just if it's the Mad King.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe you don't need to love.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, maybe you don't need to love them. Some kin needs to be slayed, as.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'Ll talk about in a second. Even Balor has some things to learn. But I like that this is like clearly a position influenced by not only the needs of the moment and looking for the strength of those alliances and that support, but like the lessons of history populated and dotted across all of Targaryen history. You know, you've mentioned the Maegor, the cruel Trial of seven, and you know, he's Arrian's problematic fave that was nephews, Aegon, Viserys, not brothers. But it's kind of like one of the original violations of something sacred, original sin from which so much targ fuckery stems. Of course. The Dance of the Dragons, which we're all watching unfold in hot d. Rhaenyra and the Blacks versus Aegon and the Greens. This is a Targaryen civil war. But also one of our favorite things about the dance is like. Like the strife inside of each of those factions. You know, those are some of the most delicious moments. Even when you have aligned against part of your family in a civil war, you can't get along with the people around you on your side. It's just more interesting. But it's also like this is who the targets are. Your favorite, the Cargo Bowl. Talking about a brother versus brother conference.

[Joanna Robinson]

The height of television.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's your favorite Blackfyre rebellion, as we've noted, a bastard brother, but still a brother. Damon Blackfyre. The Black Dragon vs Darren II the Red Dragon, Bloodraven, Bittersteel the Great Bast. They're all brothers. That's what that ward that is still such a blight on the realm right now was. And obviously we have, you know, in the future of just the Game of Thrones canon, non targ examples too. We've got Euron and Balon Greyjoy are, of course, yeah, you know, Renly and Stannis. The list goes on and on. And during the dance we had Larys and Harwin and what happened there. So he's heeding lessons of history.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sometimes you have. And I said this with love, like Thrones, Tourette's, where you, like, you can't say something, but you're like, is he a ham?

[Mallory Rubin]

Is he a ham? I just love that moment. It's a great episode of salt and salt and smoke. Is he a ham? I mean, it was a reasonable question for Renly, I thought. But so, like, Baelor can feel those lessons of history, the echoes from the past, the ripples from the past. And he's looking around him and he's like, okay, Arian just taunted my son Valerian in front of everyone.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't even need to be a student of history. The Blackfyre rebellion is just like, yes, days ago, essentially.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Thirteen years is nothing.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, like, it's not really over, you know? And so it's just like, again, Chris had no good points on Talk the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thrones, but Aryan did.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nor did Arryon, is my point. Chris has many good points, but not when he defends Aerion Targaryen. But like Viserys, we constantly held Viserys feet to the fire in House of the Dragon for not doing a better job of like, preventing all the shit that came after his death in terms of, like, making sure that everyone is getting along in a meaningful way, not in a just sort of like, get now, now get along kind of way. And so for Baelor to try to take a more active role inside of his own family, I think is admirable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, like, you understand what is fueling this? This line to Egg. He's like, my own brother clearly resents me. Darren is a fucking coward and a liar. Aryan is a monster. So there are these warnings of the crumbling that could await. Anywhere he looks, he can see them right on the Viserys front. It's real. Like, the opening note of House of the Dragon is the only thing that could tear down. The House of the Dragon was itself for a reason. It is because it is very key and very true on the eve of.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Dance, especially when there were dragons.

[Mallory Rubin]

Involved for the Targaryens, obviously. All of this is extra delicious, given the choice Baelor makes at the end of the episode to ride in side with Dunk. Sure, we have to love our brothers. Doesn't mean that we have to actually agree with them or choose to side with them. Like, sometimes other things do matter more.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I go back and say, when you say something like, the only thing that could tear down the House of the Dragon was itself or Robert Baratheon with a warhammer, like, is that our doctrine of exceptionalism is Robert Baratheon with a warhammer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Little sprinkle of mixed blood there.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, some sharp wrath, some dark blood in there. Sure. The only thing that can tear down the house of Dragon was itself.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or someone with, like, hit him with the hammer.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's. There's the throne.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just avoid the trident, you know, Just avoid the trident, guys.

[Joanna Robinson]

I looked for the trident.

[Mallory Rubin]

Baylor dismisses Egg. He's like, I need to talk to Dunk alone. And then, you know, this trial by combat idea gestating. He asked Dunk, how good a knight are you? How skilled at arms. Interesting, because is that the what makes a knight a knight answer to the question, how good a knight are you? How skilled at arms or how good a knight are you? What are you carrying in here? But Dunk's answer is not, like, super compelling on the.

[Joanna Robinson]

How.

[Mallory Rubin]

How skilled at arms front. And like, we look at Dunk, he's huge. Sir Duncan the tall. We've not seen a ton of him and he hasn't had a ton of experience that we have gotten.

[Joanna Robinson]

We've seen him knock an old man over in his training montage.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're down on our Atlanta with ease in the flashback. Destroyed Aryan, destroyed.

[Joanna Robinson]

And put up a good fight against like six or seven guards.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Took a few people to take to hold him back.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. So that's encouraging. But like, when he's basically like, you know, I have to tilt it at rings. It's not. It's not what Baylor was hoping to hear.

[Joanna Robinson]

Out stomped Lionel in a dancing competition.

[Mallory Rubin]

He did. He got those toes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Quick feet.

[Mallory Rubin]

He got those toes. What chance do I have? Truly, this is something that Duncan himself has been asking. He asked Lionel this in episode one. He asked Egg this in episode two. And that's an important thing. He's not exactly going into this, like, I can definitely win.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. When he's like, I tilted it rings, he's like. Baelor's like, okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no. Some great Baelor expressions. That was a great. That reaction there is amazing. In the initial with the Lords assembled, the trial scene, when it's decided that they will do the trial of seven. And he's like, you know, the eyebrows raised. Really? It's sort of like, yeah, you can go, this is where we are from the book. Dunk was strong and quick and his weight and reach were in his favor. But he did not believe for a moment that his skills were the equal of these others. Sir Arlen had taught him as best he could. But the old man had never been the greatest of knights. Even when young shit knight. Egg said it. Egg said it. Great knights did not live their lives in the hedges nor die by the side of a muddy road. That will not happen to me, Dunk Vald. I will show them that. That I can be more than a hedge knight. Dunk is very aware of his training, his experience, his circumstance. He knows that he is single suddenly.

[Joanna Robinson]

In the show and also not even a night.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you know what makes a night a night though, you know? Have you thought about that?

[Joanna Robinson]

I have. This is the first I'm hearing of it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Balor explains to Dunk what he's facing. Maekar Makal.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mika Mikal.

[Mallory Rubin]

I miss that guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Herald.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's the best.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe he'll do some announcing next week. That would be great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Get him in the broadcast booth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Trial of seven.

[Joanna Robinson]

A Howard Cassell moment. Do you feel good about it?

[Mallory Rubin]

But yeah, very, very good. Very good.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can just say close. How good of a night are you? I tilt it rings sometimes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh man. Great stuff. Make our found his eldest, Darren the drunken drunk at a name rather than being like, yeah, I did, I did, I did sky off. I cut class like I'm a prince and it's fine. You're not really going to be that mad at me, are you, dad? Yeah, sure. I know that you were hoping that your sons would.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like a big, huge, huge, kind of ginger, huge hedge knight. Kidnapped. He saw it Aegon days ago. Stole them. I've been thinking about doing something about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I have been strategizing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've been pursuing some plants.

[Mallory Rubin]

My pursuit. I needed to think. We love Darren. As we've said. He's a very sympathetic figure to us as we will talk about more later when we get to this stream.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry I got you killed.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is rough.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry if my lie got you killed. A bummer.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do love that when he's just like, it's possible that I've killed you with my life. So I am sorry. Like I'm probably going to a hell without wine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Darren's a great character. I really think it's one of the best performances like of a fantastic. I wish we could see. Yeah like a two scene sort of moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

So good. Even in the most dire of circumstances here. Peril all around him. Dunk asks about Sanso, not too tall for him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Multiple times inside of this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's gonna ask steely pate stealth MVP of the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

How many MVPs are you allowed to have in the show?

[Mallory Rubin]

As many as seven? I'm gonna. I'm gonna do an MVP of seven. That is my right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Baylor or Steely Pate?

[Mallory Rubin]

Baylor is the MVP to me for sure. I think Raymond is. Well, characters or performances, those are different things.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hold my hand.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're not allowed to have Raymond Fossil.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love him.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can't have him. And you know why?

[Mallory Rubin]

I can and I will.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. Sorry.

[Mallory Rubin]

The contradictions in the human heart are the only thing worth writing about. And getting tattooed.

[Joanna Robinson]

I rarely ever deny you anything, but I'm denying you this.

[Mallory Rubin]

What does Baylor say when Tantal comes up? By the time Aryan is done twisting the tale, it will be high treason. Twisting the tail like he knows what Arian has done. He knows what this is. And then this is where.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dunk gets a little head up a little. A little spicy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Treason by puppetry.

[Joanna Robinson]

By puppetry. Puppet never hurt anyone. I'll say it again.

[Mallory Rubin]

The dragon is the sigil of the royal house. To betray one being slain, it was surely innocent. Perhaps, Valor says, but far from wise, even in peacetime. Aerion calls it a veiled attack on House Targaryen and incitement to revolt. Do you believe that? Your Grace, one truth is beyond dispute. You laid hands on the blood of the dragon. What do you make of this?

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, the way in which Balor is telling him there are limits to what I can do here inside of these power structures, inside of my power I need to preserve. Right. This idea that. That you can't lay hands on the blood of the dragon. That, like, we might be in our flop era, maybe we don't have dragons, but we still have to say we're blood of the dragon, or else why do we have the right to be kings? We don't. So I think Balor is incredibly pragmatic. And I think, you know, and it's a little disappointing because you want him to just say, like, stop. Send Aerion to his room and, you know, stop this whole thing before it starts. That's what we would love to see from Balor, but Balor is more pragmatic than that. And so when he does show up at the end and we cry and the Game of Thrones theme kicks in and stuff like that, like, this is a huge moment, but also, and I didn't see this in. In. In your characterization of the notes later when we get there, but, like, what I think is true and what I, and many people are saying is that there's a pragmatic angle to it as well. Which is like, this is PR as well. Which is like, if. If it's all of the Targaryens against this guy who defended the small folk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. Yeah. Of course.

[Joanna Robinson]

That doesn't look great. So, like, is Balor acting inspired by this exchange he's having with Dunk here to, like, you know, reach into his heart and do what is true and what is right? Yes. Is he also like. And this is also a better look for us if it's a bit more evenhanded inside of this conflict. You know, both can be true. But just. Just to say that he's like. Like what we're saying about Dunk, it's not that Dunk is like, constantly polishing his halo. He is. And then he's also like, yes. You know, yeah. Thinking about kissing Tanzel or whatever the case may be.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kissing, Definitely kissing. Thinking about kissing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Kissing Balor is the same. Baelor is like, there are certain. There are certain things we have to sort of maintain in order or else this whole thing falls apart. Because, honestly, the monarchy is a joke. So in order to keep this fiction afloat, we need to pretend that the blood of the dragon is sacred. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think that complexity is really delicious. And the fact that, like, the. Everything we've heard from Arlen, from Dunk, the soul of chivalry, like, that is true, and that is very apparent. But, like, thinking about his family's position, the pressure of that he's the heir to the Iron Throne, like, it is incumbent on him to take that seriously. He has a responsibility to think about their positioning in the realm. So undeniably, that's in the. As well.

[Joanna Robinson]

This.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is this. This idea that Chris asked us about on. On Talk to Thrones, was this that, like, you know, does Aryan have a point question in terms of specifically that incitement to revolt, risk and fear.

[Joanna Robinson]

And. And I refuse to cede ground on this. And I will also say that, like, I think underlying my side of the argument would be that, like, later when Arion's like, well, Darren was insulted too, so we can't let that stand when, like, he knows full well that Darren's fucking lying. Right. So, like, all of this is him just weaving a tapestry of bullshit so that he can do whatever he wants to do, save face, you know, crush nuts and also hedge knights under his boot, you know, or the hilt of his dagger.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I. I cannot.

[Mallory Rubin]

You will not be co signing Ariana cannot see any. Has any points here on the Tansel puppet show front. And what people Might take from it. You know, I think it was back in the first trailer pod that you flagged like, because as we've talked about many times in covering the season, the canon timeline difference of like, George wrote the novella before all of the Blackfyre history existed. So there's way more just the shadow and specter of the recent Blackfyre rebellion looming in the show than there ever could have been in the novella. Because that history didn't exist because George.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hadn'T thought of it yet.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the showrunner, Ira Parker and the show team, they're able to incorporate that throughout. And so this like, one need not intend harm to do it element of like. Was that what Tansel and the puppeteers were trying to do? Like, no. Could somebody in the audience have taken encouragement from that? Is it horseshit that Arian is saying that? Undeniably. Is it possible that puppet show. Forget it. This fucking fiasco that is unfolding where they're all making asses of themselves is likely to lead somebody. Stefan Fosseway, in short order. Here is one example to say like the dragon house, where are there dragons for the crowd, for the rock hurling at Arian's head. That everything they do there is like the propensity for someone to look around and say flapper is. But like, I mean bitter steel is alive.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know you're not. I know you're not saying that Arian has a points but like, like, we just. I just. We can't certainly not have that attitude towards art. We can't say. We have to censor. Like if someone inside of the. I know you don't aren't saying this, but if someone inside of the puppetry troupe was like, should we not do the one with the dragon? Should we not do sermon when there are Targaryens around? Like if I'm Tanzel or whoever is like, I'd be like, no, we're fucking doing somewhere the mirror shield that's hidious.

[Mallory Rubin]

About Arian as a character.

[Joanna Robinson]

Arian's the kind of guy who needs his like very own halftime show because he can't handle like, you know, so it's just like.

[Mallory Rubin]

See you track sports.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know so much. Howard Cosell. Did you say so? But I mean, it's just sort of like that fragility.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's the. It's the Targaryens own brutality. Or like, you know, cuz if you are Jaris the conciliator, like, you know, if you are the kind of king who's like looking out for the people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Your. Your power isn't that brittle to misquote our guy. So, you know, it's just like, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Aryan is like the worst kind of villain where he is a striver who is seeking validation and sees himself as rare, special, righteous, worthy, but is as insecure in that power and would.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would never identify that in himself. Would always cast that blame or project elsewhere. It is because my family has let me down.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I mean, they are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look at. Look at their hair. When they're not as worthy as me.

[Joanna Robinson]

When someone in the crowd says, lord Ashford fucks his sheep. Yeah, great stuff. We laugh. We don't break his fingers. You know what I mean? Like, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

But Aryan probably would have he laughed if it had been about the Targaryens, though.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, then that's bullshit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm team Aryan as a monster, not team. Did Aryan to have some points? The girl's finger was snapped in half. Dunk points out, no matter the cause, it is never wise to strike a king's grandson. Would you not have done the same? I might have, but I am a prince of the realm, not a hedge knight.

[Joanna Robinson]

Knight.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't all knights make the same oath to protect the innocent?

[Joanna Robinson]

What I really love. And we got an email about this, but this language has been tweaked throughout this episode. Right? So you have this quote here from the book, right? A headshot is the truest kind of knight. Dunk. The old man had told him a long time ago, other knights serve the lords who keep them or from whom they hold their lands. But we serve where we will for men whose causes we believe in. Every knight swears to protect the weak and innocent, but we keep the vow best, I think. Queer how strong that memory seemed, right? So that's like very, very important for what is going on here. But the language that George uses, and he. And he'll use it again later when Baelor shows up in the novella is protect the weak or defend the weak and iron. His writers, just like, they're like, why call Tansel weak? Why call these people weak? Their innocence. And that's the point. It's not that they're weaker, it's that they are. Because, like, that's disempowering to certain, you know, to say, like, the weak but the innocent. Right. She did nothing wrong. She did a puppet show. Right. Duncan did nothing wrong. Really? He protected someone. Yeah. And are they weaker inside of this power structure? Yes, but, like, I like that they just sniped that word out a Couple times in this. In this show, and they were just sort of like. Like, what matters is the innocence. Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

The power matters less than the innocence.

[Mallory Rubin]

And ultimately that. That's a tie, too, to the choice that obviously very present in the choices that Dunk has made. But the choice ultimately that Balor makes, too, is like, I'm going to stare into Arian's soul when I say the guilty, and I'm going to ride out inside with the guy who did the right thing because he is the innocent. Ultimately. I love that tie across the character set here. We already talked about this, how this, like, slight tweak in the positioning. This, like, yeah, I'm not a hedge knight language is something that Baylor kind of offers up as his on his own versus the prompting here from Dunk. We spent some time on this on Talk the Thrones, but worth hitting here. Again, that this really just positions. It's a matter of degree. The exact words of the exchange are very similar. That Dunk is imparting wisdom here to bail, that he is providing an example.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which Bay will quote at the end.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which Baylor will need.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think. I think it's really important. We've seen Dunk do this throughout, right? So, like, you know, he says this to Egg, right? About, like, oh, we can't have the princeling be disappointed. Right. But also to Lionel, right, at the very beginning. Right. That's easy for you to say. You have a name and inheritance. One loss. I won't be able to ransom back my own horse.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

So from the beginning, Dunk has been a mouthpiece for the writers of the show to just sort of push back on the privilege that surrounds him. In a way, the Dunk in the book is not really. That's not on his agenda.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we've been, you know, chatting since before the season, since the preview pods about this. Very active positioning for the novellas, but certainly the show. And, you know, this is a core thing for George, too, but the show is really leaning to, like, we're with the small folk. Like, these are the characters, and this is the point of view, and this is the kind of life that we want to root this story in. And then it's like, like, oh, but here are all these Targaryens and something like that, where you just identified something like this moment from Dunk. It's like, only Dunk. Will he inspire other royals to be able to see life that way? Yes. And that's the great gift that Dunk can provide. But he has a history and a lived Experience and a perspective and a point of view that is the same as the legions and the masses and is not the same as the kid in the royal doublet or as chivalrous as he is. And that's part of why he's a fabled character. And even Dunk's life because of Arlen's mythologizing of Balor. You know, he shows up like we talked about earlier in the season, more in the novella than the show and just more like kind of common garb. It's like man, are the people brown hair still the heir to the Iron Throne and the Prince of Dragonstone and the hand of the king. So for Dunk to be able to just like incept a little bit and then through his lesson really lead. And also it had to be Dunk.

[Joanna Robinson]

This thing that we've brought up a couple times about the ability of the hedge knight to be in these rooms of power. I mean it's an unusual story for Dunk here. An ordinary hedge knight would not have had these opportunities to be alone with the heir to the Iron Throne as sort of like often as Dunk is here. But like there are very few sort of lower born people who are allowed to permeate the levels of power the way that like a hedge knight can. Because a hedge knight is. Acts in this sort of liminal space. Right. Of just sort of like I am of you but not one of you, you know, sort of thing. And so that's. That puts him in this really interesting position the other way in which inside the book. And it's good to have him voice these things because it's a lot of it is like internal monologue for Dunk inside of the book. I'm thinking specifically of like in this moment when Baelor's like Arian wants your head. Don't worry, I'm not letting that happen. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I can't deny him a trial.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you could lose a hand or your foot. Like that's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he already asked for some of your teeth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Them's. Them's the rules. So like Dunk spends a lot of his internal monologue from here forward thinking about what his life would be like without a foot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Y.

[Joanna Robinson]

And like we see what this cruel world does to someone as rich and clever as Laris with a disability.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Dunk has. Has none of that insulation around him. He is. He cannot live by his wits.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

With love and respect to Dunk. My guy Dunk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he does not have wealth and privilege around him. And so his. He's like, what would my life be like? Yeah. If I cannot be strong and be tall.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

What else do I have? Like, my life is over if this happens. And again, that's like I don't think true in, in our world as, as the same way is true in this world. And also this idea that if you hit a king, you lose a hand. You kick a king, you lose a hand made me think about Tyrion slapping Joffrey and saying, now I've struck a king. Did my hand fall from my wrist? You know what I mean? Just sort of like perfect.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just as the cow pie to the cheek makes us on our mind with Aerion. I mean, think of Jaime with what you just said too. Because he of course does have, have position, privilege, wealth, power, the strength of his family name, all of it. I was that hand. I was that hand. If, if, if your life is the life of a knight, and especially for Dunk at this point, at the beginning.

[Joanna Robinson]

This pivotal on the road, constantly traveling.

[Mallory Rubin]

I must risk all. And then. And then what? It's over. Right? On the, on the Tyrion front, real like, I mean Tyrion and his season four trial obviously on our minds in general because of Oberyn and, and the, the legendary I will be your champion moment which we'll talk about more when we get to the trial. By, by combat history in a minute, but Tyrion also on our mind here in the trial because the, like the, the I know I'll get no justice here declaration. Right? So, so almost like conceding in advance here. The people in that room are not going to side with you. It's not going to happen. It's not. You asked Leo Longthorne to remember who Sir Arlen was and let you enter the list and he didn't have time to do anything but spit sour leaf juice at your feet. It's not going to happen.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so especially again, this idea of like seven and the idea of something holy or sacred or just, you know, one of the associations is with justice. It's like, what is justice? If you come to. If you're looking for justice, you've come to the wrong place. This is a through line across the canon.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you think this story is a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

[Mallory Rubin]

Alzheimer. All Dimer. Whether it's a better choice or a worse choice, Balor says, I cannot say. It's gonna be up to Dunk. Right. And so I ask you again, Ser Duncan the Tall. How good a knight are you truly? And this word is deliberately being Deployed time and time again. What chance do I have? Truly, we've heard it from Dunk many times. We hear it from Baylor.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that you're flagging that, I think, and.

[Mallory Rubin]

And myth and legend. But what's real?

[Joanna Robinson]

As someone who just spent a minute or two talking about, like, this shot looks like a tarot card. I'm not here to, like, yeah, yuck. The yum of your sort of, like, what does this mean? Question I may or may not get to this, like, incredible email we got about the fart joke. But, like, yeah, but also, I wonder. I feel like that's also sometimes just like a rhetorical trick that people use to make something feel oldie timey.

[Mallory Rubin]

No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's like just Taka Truly on the end. Definitely sounds.

[Mallory Rubin]

But then in this show and in this fictional slice of the world where with this character set this novella this season, so much is about, you know, the tales grow in the telling idea. Right. The like. Like role that myth and legend play to potentially waylay you like the Stefans. Well, I just, like, I'm just gonna go get me me my glory, you know, or the way that you can perhaps find inspiration in that and then can you become that for someone else? Kind of. Just kind of fascinating.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's real and are there no true knights among you? Like, which is the line. Yes, I would say with love and respect to any other ones, we. Highlight of. Of the season of the novella, et cetera, et cetera. At the end of the day, the truest knight that we see.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. The line of the novella. Is not for puppets. I don't think you mean that at.

[Joanna Robinson]

The end of the day, the truest knight we see is Dunk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

And what is truth, then? Because if he's not actually a knight, then the truth is, should it matter.

[Mallory Rubin]

If you were actually knighted or if you live the way that a true knight should? Yeah. Great stuff. Dunk does it. He's like, trial by combat.

[Joanna Robinson]

He told me the words trial by combat, and I just thought I'd repeat them here.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great. The cut to this scene, the folks who are assembled. So it's Dunk, it's Arryon, it's Baelor, it's Maekar, it's Lord Ashford, who is, of course, hosting this tourney. And then Lord Tyrell, Leo Longthorne, who is the Lord of the Reach, Ashford's Lord Sourleaf Guy. Darren. Not in the scene in the show, which I think was a fine and good choice because it.

[Joanna Robinson]

It just it gives him a better entrance later. But yeah, he's here in the book and I think he says like one thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he's like walnut crushing. This is such a great touch. We've talked a lot across the season about shorthand. What does it tell us that Dunk is kind to animals, for example, Aryan, in the most important moment of another person's life, just sitting there using his dagger hilt, a weapon of death and violence, to facilitate his snack.

[Joanna Robinson]

A probably like Dunk could live for the rest of his life on how much that dagger costs.

[Mallory Rubin]

No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he's using it as a nutcracker.

[Mallory Rubin]

No question. This snobby little rich kid needs his snack. That's what Sarah Adina Smith said.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then like sending Lord Ashford under.

[Mallory Rubin]

The table for the unbelievable.

[Joanna Robinson]

For the nuts. Just really good stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thailand, no time for amusement.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thailand.

[Mallory Rubin]

You still thinking of Brandon Rickon, Walnut.

[Joanna Robinson]

Association star boys always.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dunk takes a breath. He says this thing and we get this incredible reaction shot of everybody. And then a little nod of encouragement from Baylor. So on the shorthand front, hearing this trial by combat, that is my right. This is just like one of the big Thrones beats. This is the good shit for Thrones fans. It's fun. A lot of the things that happen, just trial by combat in general, what Balor does to just remind ourselves that this was 1998, that George wrote this. He wrote this novella between the first and second novels. So it's like in many ways like this is like obviously we get some trial by combat of consequence. And note in the first novel, A Game of Thrones, this is like early like Baylor and the canon that Oberyn's doing a Baylor impression technically, not the other way around. Fun to think about. But of course, in the TV world we are receiving this after years and years and years of seeing trial by combat play out on screen.

[Joanna Robinson]

And unlike many, he's not asking for a champion. He's just asking for the chance to fight for his life.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ready to do it himself. Ready to do it himself. Jamie to Ned in season one. Later, when I watched the mad king die, I remembered him laughing and your father burned. It felt like justice. Nodding to, of course, Rickard Stark versus Ares champion fire.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some kings need slay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Chill guy. You don't have to love all your brothers. Great stuff. Tyrion, of course, at the Eyrie in season one, Bronn versus Servardus. Lysa, you know, got some milking in and then had time to say, you don't fight with honor and bronze. Like redesign How'd that go for him? Moondor, Beric and the Hound in season three, Thoros saying, show us the truth. Strike this man down if he is guilty. Give strength to his sword if he is true. Obviously, most famously of all, the Mountain versus the Viper in season four, I will be your champion. A lot of great stuff in Feast for Crows text where Cersei is preparing and writes to Jaime when. I love the idea. I've always loved the idea that both Jamie's siblings point at some. Some point wanted and needed him to be a champion. And that is not what happened in either case for different reasons. And then of course, in season six of Thrones, Tom and the High Sparrow banning trial by content by combat, specifically to Cersei. Yeah, it's like, we're going to do this. We're going to do the seven septons. And that went fine for everyone. It went fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely great.

[Mallory Rubin]

It went fine. No problem. This is just great. I never tire of this. Maybe a point will come when we do, but it hasn't happened yet. Yet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, especially not here because we're reading Trial by Seven, which is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Aran's like, I'm gonna up the ante.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's different.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff. So what does this tell us about Aryan as a character?

[Joanna Robinson]

That he had no good points and that he's a. He's a chicken. I mean, he's too. He cannot go up against Duncan even if Duncan has only been tilting at rings, just kicked his ass. He will beat the out of Aryan. Right. So he can't do this. And so he's like Ed Tribal 7. As I read from my hero, Maegar.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Cruel loves that guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like, Maegar had some great points and one of them was Trial by Seven and. And this, you know, like quick on his thing, quick on his feet thinking, like, definitely the Darren cover and all this sort of stuff like that. And also making it a. An a question of honor for the Targaryen families.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love even makers like, that's fucking nonsense.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's all bullshit and it's all just like so clear because he's. The best outcome for Aryan is Duncan can't get six other people to fight with him. Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Six might as well be 6,000.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right? And it's highly likely because no one would even like vouch for him to be a knight in the first place. Except he made some friends and influence some people in the last few days.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, you know, he did. Aryan is a little behind on the nighttime party drinking and also daytime song and tug of war scene.

[Joanna Robinson]

A little behind.

[Mallory Rubin]

A little behind.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was thinking about this. You know, we talked about Robin Reisling and the scene with Egg because Egg gets Lyonel Baratheon and Robin Reisling to come fight, Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And Raymond got the Humphries.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And so the scene with Robin Reisling is great because, like, Egg's like, I know the mad knight will get him. Great. But also, like, the tug of war scene was important because Egg knows who Lyonel Baratheon is. Like, he wasn't in the party tent. So it's like we saw Egg directly interact with both of the champions that he went and found. And he could, like, show up clown Baratheon, stinking drunk or asleep. And he's just like, remember when I won that tug of war for you, sir?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let me tell you, your rendition of Alice with three fingers got me thinking. Would you like to hear me? Took my dissertation, took me to a hits Bong1 space man.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would you rather bloody up some Kingsguard?

[Mallory Rubin]

Left an impression. I kind of like the. Because Maekar has been such a comedically successfully deployed character, he, in the novella is doing a lot of the, like, come on, man. Like, don't play the fool stuff with Dunk for not knowing this, but he, in the show is the one who's like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, great stuff. Oh, if it was the end.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, the Endos.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is incredible. So Trial of Seven Ancient, seldom evoked. Brought across the Narrow Sea by the Andals. Jorah the Andal. Talk about thrones Tick. Whenever I hear Andal, I have to Jorah the Andal. I always hear it in my head. Along with the Rhoynar and the First Men, of course, the Andals brought knighthood and the faith of the Seven both. And so when we think about these associations between those two things, all very much in the mix here. Also, they cut down all the Weirwoods and went to war with the Children of the Forest and killed a ton of them. So that was tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Andals are not morally superior to the Targaryens as much as they'd like to think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Turns out that almost everyone in Song of Ice and Fire, the Land of Ice and Fire, is firmly in the. We have some notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Except for the Tillman fours, all they did was shove a piece of dragonglass very slowly into a man's chest. Don't worry about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It went fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't worry about it. It went fine. Don't worry about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think on the Arian front, I love all That I think it is interesting to show us that he is also a student of history. It's giving me kind of in a much more nefarious and sinister way a little bit of a Connor Roy. Well, in my readings energy, has Aryan tracked down any withered genitalia from prior. Is he known conquerors he worships.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm just aerating his wine by putting it in the blender first.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe surprise you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would it surprise you? Look at how he opened a walnut. Anything is possible. Last trial of seven, you mentioned Maker. So this was 42ac. It is now 209ac. That is how long it has been since a trial of seven was either either happened or at least was recorded in history. And they're such monumental events that it is not reasonable to assume that something would have happened that was not recorded in history. Why has it been so long? Because the last time it happened, the faith. The faith was like Magar your claim. We've got some notes. We're going to challenge you. Every single person involved died except for Maegor, who was basically a vegetable for weeks. These are costly, costly battles.

[Joanna Robinson]

We had had several listeners ask like, what are the rules of the trial by seven? And here's the rules. The fight only ends when all seven men on one side are defeated, killed or someone yields. Like the. The main. Sort of like the accuser or the accused.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Aryan or dunk would have to yield.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So either everyone fighting on dunkside is dead or everyone's fighting on Aryan side is dead.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or.

[Joanna Robinson]

They'Re like very clearly beaten. Or Aryan or dunk yields.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

How this ends, that's what Raymond's like, this is no joke.

[Mallory Rubin]

Lances of war.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Stefan's like, well, it's a nightly contest. You're not a nice. You're not gonna have to worry about it. I like soft grapes and nice food. Stefan calling Raymond Raymond the reluctant in the novella. And then Raymond gets to talk his. I love Raymond. It's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't get to have him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, I do. God damn it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nope.

[Mallory Rubin]

So this power move from Ayen, that is, I agree, definitely born out of a position of fear, right? There's the like, okay, well, maybe he won't be able to find the man and then it won't happen. But also if it does happen, I'm gonna be able to surround myself with princes. The kingsguard.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's also a question of like. Cause Daeron has to fight now, right? Cause he's like, it's not just my honor, it's Darren's user. Yeah. Right. So Darren has to fight.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maekar has to fight.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, I've. I've seen some people, many people are asking, is Aryan hoping that, like, his brother dies or his dad dies or something like that, and that all just, like, pushes him a little closer to the throne?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, maybe it's entirely possible he's.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just, like, added bonus. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

He doesn't care what happens to anyone. I do think that the established relationship with his dad is like, one of reverence, but born of fear. And even we get the little. We see. The way that Maekar, like, pulls him out is like calling him an idiot. And, like, Darren was, like, footwhipped, which.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is a hideous form of torture that is, like, banned by the Geneva Convention. Like.

[Mallory Rubin]

And like Raymond, we learned from him in a prior episode that he's like, he wouldn't have done that. Like, he wouldn't have done the thing that he had done to Humphrey Harding if his father.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just think Aryan.

[Mallory Rubin]

So they're terrified of him.

[Joanna Robinson]

On the one hand, yes. But on the other hand, I think Aryan's like. Like, anything that gets me close to the throne is an added bonus to me, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, and then there's also the like. So there's the I'm afraid part.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let me get people out of my.

[Joanna Robinson]

Way to see Valar dead. That's for sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Clearly. Yeah, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a Balor who hates him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, this is all. I mean, all of that fuels into just the larger way that Aryan thinks about legacy and legend. Right. All of this potentially could just boost his stock and his standing as a figure of. Of consequence. And if he can do it while shielding himself with swords that he doesn't think Dunk can match, it's an interesting tactic.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm going to talk about strategy. I'm going to talk about this again a little later. But, like, I think this idea that, okay. To be part of a trial by someone which hasn't happened in 160 years. Incredible. Lionel's like, sign me up. Let's do it, baby. This is sick. Awesome. When Balor shows up and then all of a sudden, it's like Targaryen versus Targaryen. And all of a sudden, the heir to the Iron Throne, the Hand of the King, is fighting. This is like, now everyone knows their front row to history in this moment at Ashford Meadow. That is what we are watching here.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know who's thrilled? Lord Ashford. But like you said, how can I listen to a payday failed to monetize the event.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You hate to fail to monetize. I love in the text when in response to the explanation that the Andals believed. Which we get in the show, too. If seven champions fought the gods being thus on honored would be more like to intervene and see the guilty party punish.

[Joanna Robinson]

This.

[Mallory Rubin]

This sheen put on it. Leo Tyrell in the book chimes in. He's like. Or mayhaps they simply had a taste for sword play. And I've always loved. I wish. I kind of wish we had gotten that in the show. But I always love that line because it's like, yeah, this is a bloodbath.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like base violence wrapped up in something. Let's see anything else we haven't hit in this scene before we move to the next. Just the way that Aryon deploys honor, you know, as like a farcical idea. Yeah. The gall to do that in front of Dunk. All right. The Foss ways. Dunk goes back to his elm. He's in the rain. He talks to the horses. And Raymond pops out, asks if he wants some food. And we cut to some pretty disgusting mealtime with Stefan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think. Do you have misophonia? Do you think anymore?

[Mallory Rubin]

Definitely.

[Joanna Robinson]

No question.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you chew gum.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

It doesn't bother you when I chew gum around you?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't recall ever thinking you chewed gum loudly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. No.

[Mallory Rubin]

The way that Stefan was noshing on that hunk of meat though.

[Joanna Robinson]

Boy.

[Mallory Rubin]

All Nights vow to protect the innocent. Stefan says, Even Hedge Nights, I assume he can't help himself.

[Joanna Robinson]

Says, I assume I am for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

The accent is thick on Stefan Fosseway. I am for you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I am for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Even this piece of shit, who could not be more of a dick to Raymond here. To Raymond always. To Dunk to everyone he's interacted with. Just like, for a beat. Says something that is positioned as.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's theater.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's all horseshit. And that makes it all the more, of course, powerful to reinforce that Dunk is the rare knight who actually believes this. Who isn't using these things as either paper shields or pathways to achievement.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have to say, from my very anecdotal evidence of people's response to this, most people were snookered by Steven Fosseway here. Sir Severon. Yeah, sorry, I said Stephen. Stephen Fossaway.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, the way that he puts this theater on, like, really got the people at home thinking, okay, this guy sucks. But he. He cares. When a puppeteer gets her finger snapped. He's on the side of right. And then it's like nope. What?

[Mallory Rubin]

He's on his own side only the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Shit bag with the rose. Gaudy rose. Gold armor is a bad deal.

[Mallory Rubin]

It looks great. It does look great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Because you love Stefan, by the way.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do not. I do not Team Red Apple, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not Team Red Apple.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not Team Stefan. Nope. We contain multitudes, all of us. This is the Dragon House exchange. When Dunk is like are you sure you want to side with me? Like you don't have to. The Dragon House is not going to be pleased like if anybody opposes them, right. And Stefan says Dragon House. Where are their dragons? Sir Duncan. And then he talks about the Fosseway House's own history. We were here long before these others come to our shores and I'll warrant we'll be here long after they are gone.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we talked about this last week.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

This idea that the fossil ways used to be lords and they lost their lordship. Right. That they were like their old house. Old old house. That they used to be so rich and powerful that the Tyrells married them for their money. Right. And so that they are like disgraced. I think we got an email from someone or I saw a comment somewhere where someone's like well it's because is confirmed. It's show confirmed that they they were on the wrong side of the Blackfyre rebellion. But I don't think you get the way that they've changed. I talked about the regional accents on talk the thrones of of these two actors that they picked for this role but also they've changed. We'll get to it sort of when when Raymond and Stefan have their exchange later on the tourney ground. But like they've changed the nature of their language. It's rougher it's lower lower class than it is in the novella. You don't get that within 20, you know like less than 20 years. Like I think they lost their Lordship long before that and there's you know we. We I mentioned on talk to the Thrones or maybe maybe last week like we might see the fossilways in House of the Dragon. Like they might show up. I would expect that maybe I mean I don't know like if they have time for it they might do some fossil away stuff in. In that if they so stuff that.

[Mallory Rubin]

They are a part of will definitely happen. Whether they will be whether or not.

[Joanna Robinson]

We have time for to give Humphrey Beesbury a line or the fossil ways. Any air time. I don't know but like they've been on the wrong side of conflicts before, you know what I mean? So I don't think it's blackfire rebellion related. But anyway, they've lost, they are disgraced. And so the fact that like Stephan Fossway is like, I want a lordship out of this, right? I'm, I'm turning coat here so that I can get a lordship from Aryan who doesn't have the ability to grant lordship, by the way, is, you know, is this whole like we used to be somebody to thee who has the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Power to grant it. It would never occur to him that there would be a Targaryen on the other side of this. It is simply a like calculus of the royal house versus this hedge knight. Sure, it's about to get more complicated. But I do, I do I, you know, we've been tracking the no dragons thing the whole time.

[Joanna Robinson]

But the like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Seeking lordship, seeking favor, like none of that is being calculated in your own ambition. None of that is the same as being a fool. You know, it's just, it's a, it's what he does. He does not have points, nor does Aryan, but it's a fascinating insight into the state of play singers to make them immortal. He says the answer is always more glory. This is how he's boasting that he'll easily be able to go wake other people and find them and get them to decide to do the same thing because his ambition, his self interest is just so naked and he assumes this is what drives all people. What do you make of the way that you asked the question on Talk to Thrones about? Cause we were noting the I I and in talking about Stepan's armor, I I recalled the steely pate line to dunk about like I don't do that. I don't do the fancy armor and the far and fruits like good plain steel, much like dunk. And so we have with their armor, but also what the armor represents about them. Stefan and Dunk as contrasts. And you observed like, well what. How do we reconcile something like Lionel's fancy armor, Right. There's kind of an interesting version of this here too with the tales grow in the telling aspect of this because like, like glory drives Stefan in a way that is bad and wrong and something that we are meant to judge. But glory drives Lionel Baratheon. You know, he's talking about the storm lords of old and what they had done and what he wants to do. He says in the novella and the show, this hasn't happened in 100 years. Like, I'm not going to miss it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love Lionel Baratheon. I think Dunk is lucky that he's on his side. I think Dunk is lucky that the Baratheon don't really like the Targaryens that much.

[Mallory Rubin]

Complex stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's very complex. Very, very, very messy family tree there and stuff like that. But, like, I think it's very lucky that Lyonel Baratheon has some, like, chips on his shoulder about the Targaryens, because I think it quite easily have gone the other way with Lionel. I wouldn't. It's like him walking away from the tug of war. Like, I wouldn't put. Yeah, he. He doesn't betray Dunk the way that Stefan does here. But, like, just because Lionel showed up for him doesn't mean I think Lionel has, like, a strong moral code here. You know, there's like, the.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll talk about all of the knights who are on Dunk's side and why they're there. And we will lament that we didn't get more time with some of them. There's a reason that Lyonel, if there was only gonna be one, like, had to be the one. And we better understood his choice. A number of things that the show benefits from moving up his introduction and expanding his role. Stefan's like, not just, I got all these fancy friends, but he's like, you're not gonna die. My watch. A promise, a throne's promise. Never good. Never works out. Never good. And Raymond in the novella is just like, these guys that he just listed. Like, I'm sure he knows them, but they don't know him. You should find your own champions.

[Joanna Robinson]

Raymond, like, throughout this conversation is like, what the it? This is not very Stefan worthy. Like, this is not. He's like, you should also leave. You should think about running away. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's an interesting moment because Dunk's like, won't they kill me? And then Raymond's like, well, won't they kill you anyway?

[Joanna Robinson]

Which dungeon? Dunk turns back on him in a second.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. In the text on that idea of running, Dunk thinks to himself, he wondered if they expected him to saddle a horse and flee. He could, if he wished. That would be the end of his knighthood. To be sure, he would be no more than an outlaw henceforth. Until the day some lord took him and struck off his head. Better to die a night than live like that, he told himself stubbornly. So the choice he makes here, like so many other things. For Dunk, it's all entwined and connected to the way that he thinks about all of this. Like, why is he here in the first place? I'm going to show them that I'm more than an outlaw, that I'm more than a robber, that there can be majesty and worth in the life of a hedge knight. So, of course, he was never going to run. He's Dunk. He's Sir Dunk the doll.

[Joanna Robinson]

Plus, he's like his father, not very inconspicuous.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where are you gonna hide, tall guy? Tall guy can't just shave his head like Egg and then escape notice even more noticeable.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would say.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is where he says the thing about not knowing my place. Maybe the gods figure this is what I deserve. He says, raymond's and for doing what you were supposed to, for not knowing my place. So does this feel just connected to you? To the larger question of a monstrous lie? The monstrous lie, yeah. Yeah. And in general, just the idea of maybe trying to move beyond his station, which we love. We love to see it. Darren's here. Egg enters the tent. He pops in. Dunk's like, egg, it's very sweet. Egg's like, I'm your spire. Someone's gotta arm you. And I don't care that my family's on the other side. I'm your guy. It's very sweet. It's very wonderful. Then the mood shifts because Darren comes in and Dunk is just like, I'm going to pin you to a table with the dagger at your throat. They can't kill me twice.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is something that, like, I thought was really interesting. That this idea, this idea that, like, Darren seems so unbothered by this. Dunk just, like pins him down. And Darren's like, sure, whatever. Yeah. But he's petrified of his dreams. Yeah, well.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he says late. Like, he says in the end of this conversation, like, I don't want to die. You know, I don't want to die. And I mean, who knows what other dreams he's having that he hasn't shared that give him some sense of the future and his role in it. Yeah, dreamers always interesting, the when and the how. We'll learn eventually that that is really why he's here, to talk to Dunk about the dream. But first they have to basically talk through what they've learned about the other side. Maekar will be fighting. Darren is going to be there. He assures Dunk. Just going to ride out once. One gallon charge, then give me a little knock on the side of the head. I'LL just stay there in the mud.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's a line that they cut that we really love. Right. My brothers have my measure when it comes to fighting and dancing and thinking and reading books. But none of them is half my equal at lying insensible in the mud.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Darren rules great.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would have loved to have that line.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. That is a good one. I missed. And the kings.

[Joanna Robinson]

Only the three that are here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Only the three that are here. Absolutely killed me. So funny. Only the three that are here. Oh my God. Very funny. Darren is a comedic genius. And who are those three? Sir Donald of Duskendale, Sir Roland Cray, call Hot Roland, as we like to call him here. And Sir Willem Wild, who was in the background of One Shot. So two of these guys, Donald and Roland Dunk had a moment with. Right. He shared an experience with them. A little bit of bonding. And all of whom the three who are here. And just in general, the kingsguard as we talked about when we. We spent some time with them in episode two, Dunk worships. So yes, there's the wallop. There's the gut punch of hearing, oh fuck, I'm gonna have to face the most capable knights and warriors in the realm. But much more than that, it's like these are my heroes. I know they're supposed to be the embodiment of knighthood. How does that ideal.

[Joanna Robinson]

And they're on the other side of me. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I believe I have done the knightly thing. So this conflict that we're always talking about how George loves to explore what's the ideal and what's real and what happens when the characters have to stare that in the face. Like what could Dunk has. It's time and time again all these characters who are reminding Dunk of these things. This is a subtler one, but it is one of those moments too. Like if they're fighting against me for the thing that I have done that I know it's right, it connects to that Arlen passage that you read. The truest kind of knight he can be. The kingsguard have to do what they're told, whether they think it's right or not.

[Joanna Robinson]

And this is why. Not just because of the great Lionel line about like blooding up their pretty white dresses. But like, yeah, that shining pure white example of what a knight is. And then the grubby, grubby Dunk and the fact that Dunk is like. Is the. Is the pure of heart one.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love Dunk and Sorrel and Hot Hot take. Super hot. Yeah, Hot take. I love Dunk. He's great. They ask you, you know dunk, who do you have? All right, we just ran you through the roster on the other side. What do you got cooking? He's like, let me tell you about.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you heard of him?

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible moment where we just get to linger on E. Yeah. Parents facings for a second and they're like, great stuff. So Egg is like, I love sports. You saw me at the joust. It's signing day, baby. I've got you. Let me go recruit. Let me go recruit. Champions never sleep.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm in. I'm in the black.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is Nick Saban line.

[Joanna Robinson]

Obviously a person. I definitely know who he is. Yeah. Eggs out there and he's got his black and red garb and he's like, I'm a princeling. Let's see what I can do. Do.

[Mallory Rubin]

And this is where Dunk is like, I am going to be going against your family. Do you really not care?

[Joanna Robinson]

We don't get to see this in the show and we don't get to see it in the book either because it's this great, like, moment of surprise that egg, like, went out and got these guys. But, like, I would have loved to have seen the egg pitch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Me too. Me too. Perhaps in a webisode presented by the the Egg and Thunder Show. Okay, we broke the point of view rule once.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why not again take us into egg waking Lionel up from the, like, piss soaked, beer soaked, drunken stupor that he is, like, found himself in the bottom of his tent, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

I know in the novella we get that line that's like, yeah, and my boy, like, spilled a flagon of wine over my head. It's like, I think that in the show land, Egg walked in on something different. Egg walked in on something different. And it left a mark in more ways than one.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's learning lots of lessons. Lots of lessons to be had.

[Mallory Rubin]

Eggs. Like, my father's gonna be protected. The kingsguard are there. Darren just told you that he'd flop, Arian. Thanks for asking.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can kill him.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can kill him. He put my cat in a well.

[Joanna Robinson]

He threw my cat down a well. Even though he said he didn't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Egg cat guy. You love to know it. Yeah, you love to know it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Darren's like, okay, yeah, he sucks.

[Mallory Rubin]

Used to say that he would cut my dick off and then said he could marry me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Marry me. Raymond's like, hilarious.

[Mallory Rubin]

Raymond is just laughing up the storm. Thinks it's a great, appropriate time to Laugh. This is an iconic Darren line. Zeg says he thinks he's a dragon in human form. That's why he's so. So rotten. The puppet show. And Darren says, a pity he wasn't born a foss away. Then he'd think himself an apple and we'd all be a deal.

[Joanna Robinson]

Saint.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you think that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think that earlier Sir Stavron accused. Accused Raymond of having milk in his veins? Like sort of the. Like sort of milky veins of an apple. Was that another apple pun? Do you?

[Mallory Rubin]

Entirely possible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think they're capable of having a conversation without apple puns every couple of sentences. So I'd say it's more likely than not. Darren has done for a private word tells him he dreamed of him. Dunk's like, I know. You told me that when I saw you at the inn. And Darren's like, I don't remember that. I've been in my cups. I've been in my cups. But then he shares more details. My dreams are not like yours, he says. Mine come true. An impressive town for an unimpressive man. Another one of life's little ironies. Real Tyrion. Life is full of these little ironies. Carlos. Let's hear what else Darren says here.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have seen you, sir, and a fire and a dead dragon, a great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Beast with wings so large that could cover this meadow, did fallen on top of you.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you were alive and the dragon was dead.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did I kill it? Dunk asks. That I could not say. So this is like the spine tingling good shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is what I'm talking about. This is the what the hell does this riddle prophecy mean sort of shit that I love. From George R.R. martin.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, we will obviously talk about this more in the spoiler section later, but here, it's another example of. Okay, well, like, what does a character do when they say this thing? What does a character do when they hear this thing? What sort of mark does it leave on Dunk, on Darren, on anyone else who hears this? Eventually, but in general, Darren, the drunken Darren, the dreamer. The burden of these dreams, the crushing weight of these things that he has seen. He's not the only one in Targaryen history. No, I mean, like, to be so afflicted.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, like, Dan's the dreamer who we brought up, much to Chris's confusion, on Talk this round. Great moment, right? That she is like. Like, this is the. The inciting incident for the Targaryens. Leaving to come over to Westeros is her dream. And you'd be inclined about the doom of all Valyria, you'd be inclined to.

[Mallory Rubin]

Put stock in prophetic dreams anyway. But if it. If a dream saved your family, if you were the only dragon riding house that made it out of the Doom because of a dream, you'd be believing your own hype a little bit with this stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

I am no ordinary woman. My dreams come true. Like, this is a. This is a Daenerys line. We've got Maester Aemon, we've got Rhaegar. Like, all of this stuff is really important. But I would say of all the dreamers, I mean, talk about Viserys to Alicent Season one, we talked about this, right? What is the power of a dragon against the power of prophecy? But I think Helaena is the character that we should really look at when we think about like, who has been broken by prophecy. Helaena and her like sort of babbled riddles and just sort of the way in which she's completely been addled by this. You know, when we see her room in House of the Dragon and there's just sort of these drawings everywhere of just sort of. She's just plagued by these dreams. And this is. That's like a bit of a show invention for House of the Dragon. But it's a really, really good precursor to what is going on with Darren here. That you can't have all of this information in your head and not be broken by it in some way. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love to like track the parallels and similarities across the targs and also the differences, like who experiences these prophetic dreams. And like Aegon the Conqueror says Song of Ice and Fire. Like every ruler in our family from here is going to heed the import of these words.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm gonna etch it on Dagger.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's gonna be right there. You're just gonna have to hold it over some flames. Fire, Fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't worry about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Again, the professor is always welcome. And who is going to crumble under the weight. And also whose relationship inside of the Targaryen family to the idea of dragon dreams is going to morph over time. Like you mentioned Viserys and his complex relationship to these dreams. His aspiration, his desire, like I so badly wanted it to be true, to be a dreamer myself. Right? Miscalculating, misinterpreting. You have something like Daemon looking at his brother in derision. Dreams didn't make us kings, Dragons did. But then our guy Daemon gets around those Weirwood roots in season two and is like, I have a new relationship to this now.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'VE been to Burning Man.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Their drugs are different.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. So good. I mentioned on Talk to Thrones that one of the things that Daarin says in this stretch of the book when he's talking about the Kingsguard, how they had no choice. They're sworn to protect the lives of the king and the royal family. And my brothers and I are blood of the dragon. Gods help us. That Gods help us, I've just always loved. But I think one of the best lines is a storm of swords. Aliser, Florence, shout out Selyse. That's her uncle. I can't believe I've mentioned Selys. Two out of the last three weeks. Insane, frankly, to Davos. And a storm of sword says, no good has ever come of dreams of dragons. No good has ever come of dreams of dragons. So there's some more stuff we'll talk about later.

[Joanna Robinson]

Things go completely fine with Celis. It's gonna be fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

She does great. She does great. Dunk leaves this exchange with Darren, and, you know, like you, he's always thinking of puppets, and so he makes his way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Puppet time, baby.

[Mallory Rubin]

To the tent. This is just.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Have you ever.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, first of all, what a thrill to be right.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll never forget the feeling on the trailer pod when I was like, whose head is that? And you're like, I think I know, but I'm not gonna tell you until the pod.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then the way that you broke out. I'm always thinking of puppets. I'll just never forget it. And neither Dunk.

[Joanna Robinson]

Growing up, I lived, like, two blocks from the library and right in Old Mill park. There. There was the Mill Valley Fallers Festival. There was a puppet show there every year. And I was just, like, obsessed with this puppet show. It was just like a really, really good puppet show that I would go to every year, love.

[Mallory Rubin]

There was something in Baltimore called pumpkin theater, if I'm remembering correctly. But it was like theater for young, little pumpkins, young kiddos. And perhaps pumpkins were also involved in the production. I can't remember, but my grandma would take me to pumpkin theater. I think that's what it was called. And puppets were in my memory, perhaps apocryphal, but I think often involved very special.

[Joanna Robinson]

Puppets rule. And so I do want to talk about this for a second, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, please.

[Joanna Robinson]

We hear the you are no knight. You are Florian the Fool. That line, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oops.

[Joanna Robinson]

From beyond the. Well, she's not dead, so not from beyond the grave. I will say she's one of our only female characters who ever talk. So it's the only way we get. We get a cut to red and we get a cut to, you know, Gwyn. But not a lot of women are talking in this episode of television.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's just say it. Even with the horses couldn't have said, oh, lads, if sweet foot had still been there.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we have a woman talking about a man from a previous episode in this episode. But anyway, I said this on industry, and it's true here too, everyone has a hard on for Hamlet. So we get this moment or Dunk is holding the floor in the full head, which is very Hamlet gravedigger scene. Alas, poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio. And I think, alas, poor Yorick. I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy. He hath bore me on his back a thousand times. And now how abhorred in my imagination it is. My gorge rims at it. Here hung those lips that I have kissed. I know not all how, how oft. Where be your jibes now, your gambols, your songs, your flashes of merriment? There were want to set the table on a roar, not one now to mock your own grinning. Quite, chap fallen. So like, I think that moment of like, thinking about your own mortality as you stare at the skull of something, you know, which is what Hamlet is doing here. But like, very specifically, this idea of the fool, the head of a fool, right? Yorick was the court jester. And so thinking about how alive Yorick was, how like, you know, David Foster Wall is like infinite jest, you say? I'll write that down. But like how alive, how full of laughter and spirit and just like more brimming with life than most people ever met. And now it's just a grinning skull that he's holding and this is, you know, food for worms is where we're all headed, right? And so this idea of like Dunk on the verge of this very scary thing he has to do where he can't think of a way forward, where he doesn't surely die regarding his own mortality. And then regarding this, this, this head of this fool, but also this. Am I the fool, right? Is every night a fool? Am I the fool sort of thing, right? We talked about this last week. This idea of like, just the very idea of being a knight is to be foolish to, to. And I think I forgot to say, but meant to say Don Quixote, because like, that is the epitome of like, the, the foolish idea of knighthood tilting it windmills like to. To fancy yourself chivalric in this cruel world is a foolish endeavor in the history of literature, of global literature. And so like Don Quixote and his squire Sancho Panza on donkeys, which Dunk invokes earlier in this episode. But just sort of like that idea of like, am I. Was I a fool to even get involved in this? Am I a fool to think that there is justice in this world or there are ideals in this world? And do I have to do all of this while facing the idea of my own mortality at this young age of 30 something? But in the book it's a teenager, you know, so, like, I learned that.

[Mallory Rubin]

There'S no justice in the world. Not unless you make it. It's very true.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's very true. But like, what I think is interesting is we've been constantly thinking about our. Our babe Brienne of Taurus. Right? Yeah. She was worried about this too. Right. She has this line in A Clash of Kings, the fool he promised me is like to be my own reflection in a pond. You know what I mean? Like, Bran was not immune from this worry of like, am I a fool inside of all of this? And then also like, what will the history books remember of us? There is this great line in A Clash of Kings when she's talking to Catelyn about this is. Tales grow in the telling.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Winter will never come for the likes of us should we die in battle they will surely sing of us and it's always summer in the songs, in the songs all nights are gallant all maids are beautiful and the sun is always shining. This idea of just sort of like, they won't tell the truth of us. They won't say who I Brienne am a, by her own definition, ugly woman or not really actually a knight, but a knight. And what stories being woven around Dunk inside of this very moment, we find him in history. He has found himself at the center of a historic trial by seven featuring several members, members of the royal household and a couple fossilways, not to mention a Beesbury.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just a while come up for the fossilays here. True. And like, don't worry, no one will be mentioning the Beesbury.

[Joanna Robinson]

What Alice with Three Fingers esque song are they gonna make about this one?

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. You know, that's gorgeous. I love all of that. A donkey will be entering the chat at some point in the future, just on the donkey front, so that's exciting to look forward to. We won't spoil the specifics.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something to think about.

[Mallory Rubin]

When you're reading that Brienne passage, like, the glamour and the sheen, it makes me think of in season one, Robert, you know, wanting to share war stories and talk with Jaime, talk with Barristan. But, like, they never tell you how they shit themselves. Like, they don't put that in the songs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ira Parker's like, I put it in the show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ira's like, I'm gonna put it in every episode. We're gonna have diary on the first, and episode two is gonna open with the piss. And then in episode three, a horse is gonna take a very prominent shit. And then episode four, in the most moving and meaningful stretch, the bird of Bracken is gonna let one rip.

[Joanna Robinson]

A real juicy one.

[Mallory Rubin]

We are gonna remember. I know. I feel like he probably had to, like, change after that, swap some small clothes. The Bruno Bracken. He probably doesn't care. He's the Bruno Bracken.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so here's one of your several MVP Steely Pate. Here he is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fucking love him.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is a great scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

He would have thoughts on all of this. He would be like, I'm about to tell you about these. The beautiful summer leaves, you know, let me tell you, like, okay. What makes a night, and I don't know. What makes a fool.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fool. The trees are green. Don't worry about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's the best. I just love this guy. I would watch a Steely Space spin off and I would do it happily. I really would. I really would pull stunk out of this puppet haze.

[Joanna Robinson]

We.

[Mallory Rubin]

We get this. That's the cut you mentioned earlier, from the Tanzel screams to the crunch.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's interesting. So, like, he. It's exactly as he's described in the book. But when he shows up in his, like. And is basically like his Macintosh with, you know, his. His rain slicker with. With a lantern. Yeah. Very invocative of. Of. Of the seven. Like, this is. This is a very godly sort of look for him. Yeah. Also makes me think of Percy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

That.

[Mallory Rubin]

Another legend. Dunk. Again, this is where I ask after Tansel and Steely Pate says she and her uncle left for. For Dorne shows Dunk the shield, pulls it down, down and explains. Before we get to the response that Dun Cast to seeing the sigil, to seeing his device, he explains that he has reinforced the shield. Little bit of the Sir Arlin rim, twice as thick.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's heavier, but it's stronger.

[Mallory Rubin]

Heavier, but it's stronger.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that so much. It just. It made me think about, like, the truth that Duncan is carrying about the world now. Like, isn't his life so much heavier than it was just, like, a week ago? But isn't he stronger for it? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Love that. Dunk looks at the painting, he looks at the sigil, and it should be this.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's beautiful. We should say it's gorgeous.

[Mallory Rubin]

Looks gorgeous. Tanzel crushed it. Honestly, she was right in terms of.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, graphic design is her passion. She took the prompt and executed it completely. And he is like the classic sending notes back. Being like, looks like death, actually. And she's like, I gave you exactly what you asked for. Precisely. He's like, great, I have some notes. Can we change everything?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's like, no, I fucked up the dorm. Bye.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sorry I'm not around. First draft is the only draft. He's going through it, though. This should be this great. Not, like, a moment of, like, joy.

[Joanna Robinson]

But.

[Mallory Rubin]

A declaration of an arrival. Right? Okay. It was born out of necessity. Like, so many things are for Dunk. You must, you know, he needs a sigil of your own, as Baylor told him. A device of your own in Episode two. But instead, here it is a lament. It's another lament because he looks at this and he's forlorn. The star has fallen and the sunset heralds night. The shield is all painted up like death. And so all of these things, the baelor guiding him to needing to do this. Arlen and the sunset Egg and the idea of the elm, Tanzel painting it, all of those things that we talked about, these different strands of the people who have influenced his life all being present there. The naming, instead of it being something to celebrate, it's something to worry over. It's one more thing that has been warped for Dunk in this moment. And Steely Pate comes through, through and is like, my dude, the elm's alive, man. See how green the leaves are? That's summer leaves for certain. You just shared a beautiful quote where summer is evoked. Nights of summer, spring, a dream of spring. This is like, the idea of the new dawn, the bloom, life and possibility in Thrones. The next thing that Steely Pate says.

[Joanna Robinson]

In the text, though, is he says, coming this winter. Spring is coming this winter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spring is coming this winter. And everybody will understand what that means. So don't worry about it. Don't worry about the shield, and don't worry about that log line. I've seen shields blazoned with skulls, he says, and wolves and ravens. Frankly, wolves and ravens. That sounds awesome and very much My, yes. Even hanged men and bloody heads, they served well enough. And so will this steely pa. This is like borderline clear eyes. Full hearts, can't lose. This is amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then I have a note.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me, what's the note?

[Joanna Robinson]

Because I would say, say, oak and iron guard me well. And making Dunk fill in, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell.

[Mallory Rubin]

He was really leaning into the. Think about the oak and iron part. It's really.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's real. It's real. Aragorn before the Battle of Helm's Deep, when he shouts at Legolas that I will die with him. With them. And all the men around him are like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no, you're gonna watch. You gotta do what?

[Joanna Robinson]

Or else I'm dead and doomed to hell. And Dunk's like, is this helping?

[Mallory Rubin]

It is a great. It was fun to hear it. It's like such. Oh, it's really good.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was really, really good. But Dunk's like, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Listen, even Coach Taylor had some things to learn. A lot. So this is where Dunk is crying. He dries his eyes. Ask what he owes Steely Pate and Joanna, what does Steely Pate, legend, icon, prince among men for?

[Joanna Robinson]

You tell him, copper.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fucking copper. This guy a couple episodes ago was like, 800. Okay, you've got some armor, because I'm warming to you. 600. This is so telling. This is so indicative.

[Joanna Robinson]

The champion of the people. I love this. So, like, you're about to hit a quote that I actually can't believe was cut out. And I have to wonder if it's going to be in one of the later episodes.

[Mallory Rubin]

A shock to me. I was trying to think of the last time. I was like, how could a line like this not have made it from page to screen? And I was thinking of, like, I actually have.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do have an idea. Right, Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I will.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll. I'll read it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So many come to see me die, thought Dunk bitterly. But he wronged them. A few step further on, a woman called out, good fortune to you. So this is him approaching the attorney field. And basically all the small folk are. And I will get to this, actually, a little later on with, like, a theory that I read. But, like, all the small, small folk are coming up and sort of like, wishing him well. Yes. Right. An old man stepped up to take his hand and said, may the gods give you strength, sir. Then a begging brother in a tattered brown robe said a blessing on his sword and A maid kiss his cheek. They are for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why?

[Joanna Robinson]

He asked Pate. What am I to them? And Steely Pate says a knight who remembered his vows. A knight who remembered his vows is like. So here's the theory. An unfortunate theory I have.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

In the, like, knighting. The really cool knighting that we all love. The. The edit of.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Raymond being knighted by Lionel. And then we see Duncan kneeling and looking up and Sir Arlan looking down at him. I love when. I love in film and television when people look at each other from across time. Like, I just think it's really good. Dunk is in his armor at that point.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

There is a shot that was in nearly every single trailer of Steely Pate arming Dunk a mon. Like, you know, like, throwing the tabard over his shoulder, which certainly Little Egg was not doing. So almost certainly Steely Pate arming Dunk, which we did not get to see.

[Mallory Rubin]

And is described in detail in the novella, the armoring stretch and how Dunk is, like, becoming.

[Joanna Robinson]

So that was cut.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I wonder if that was part of that moment that he said it then. And, like, in the interest of, like, making this very. Like, I told you, I cried, like, this very cool sequence of, like, what if we edit it all together and it all just, like, becomes this sort of montage moment. Yeah, this. This also goes to, like, in terms of, like, we would happily welcome all of these episodes to be a bit longer. Happily. A lot of people I saw on Reddit were saying that they thought that our guy, Humphrey Beesbury, like, Ira at the New York Comic Con at the New York. At New York Comic Con, said that there was a character who had, like, 10 minutes of screen time across all the episodes, and they were basically all cut out. And so a lot of people were like, was that Lyman Beesbury? Did he have something to do in the tent where we saw him dancing? Like, did he just have a few moments? And they just basically cut it all out? And Ira was like, it's a shame. It was a great performance. Like, blah, blah. But we basically cut this entire character down to nothing. And so in terms of tightening up around just getting to the end of this episode, Lyman Beesbury might have been part of it and this line might have been part of it, or it's gonna come up in. In. In next week's, like, at the beginning of next week's episode or somehow.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm holding out, though, mostly because that is a. The facts are compelling. The evidence.

[Joanna Robinson]

Vows is like, it's. It's like, iconic.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is genuinely.

[Joanna Robinson]

We overuse that word, but it's, like, genuinely iconic.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. My hope is that it is not coming despite the very compelling case you just made and is merely on hold. Because as we talked about with Chris on Talk of Thrones, there is a tweak in terms of just the crowd, as Dunk initially finds it. So he, like, they're not all, like, cheering for him right away. He goes out to silence. And so maybe we are building toward this moment, though frankly, it would be more about, like, Baylor or Baylor does.

[Joanna Robinson]

Get a big, like, yeah, like when Aryan side comes out and Mika and all of that. And the crowd's like, yay, dad. Right? And then they're like. And then Baylor comes out and they're like, yeah. So, you know, and like you said.

[Mallory Rubin]

Earlier, they're like, we're here for history.

[Joanna Robinson]

But the. But the. The way in which that quote matters so much. To go back to that line you loved earlier in the season when Steely Pate's like, oh, yeah. And everyone else here is come here to cheer you on, like, literally.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, yeah, I know. It's a hot bummer.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I mean, this just connects. Night I remembered as Vass. I wonder if they felt like it would be inside of the episode. Like, we're getting it from Balor at the end with what he says when Maker's like, what the fuck are you doing? He's like, well, this guy is a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Knight who remembered his vows.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is a knight who remembered his vows. Like, we kind of get it, but it is. There's something about. Especially because of the spirit, small folk orientation and rooting of the story. Like, there's something about hearing it from Steely Pate that is. It's always felt so perfect.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

H. God. All right, well, they better put that in. I love this show. They better put that in. Ira, it's not too late.

[Joanna Robinson]

Put it in.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not in. Put it in.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's definitely too late.

[Mallory Rubin]

God damn it. Dunk meets his side.

[Joanna Robinson]

Shout out Sir Humphrey Harding, who's strapped into Incredible Shadow. Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

And a fun fact. That's Arian's horse. He's on.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. That's right. And Arian was thrilled and totally happy to handle it, delighted to give his.

[Joanna Robinson]

Horse over to Humphrey Hart. Sorry I ruined your life. Killed your horse and smashed your legs.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shut up. Like a baking dish.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's my horse.

[Mallory Rubin]

So we're going to go through everybody who is here. When Dunk arrives and sees Sir Humphrey Harding, Sir Humphrey Beesbury, Sir Robin Riesling. I can't say Risling, sorry. And Sir Lionel Baratheon. Very quickly just who they are reminding if we need to and then like what their motivations are. Because an interesting thing as Dunk said to Stefan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah they all say it except for Humphrey.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is weird that he wasn't like. And he's my brother in law and my name is also say we have to love our brother in laws could.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have just done that.

[Mallory Rubin]

The battle of Humphrey, everyone is still talking about it. So we gotta like give him an encore here what their motivations are. Because when Dunk said to Stefan that's a Stevron. The Dragon house is not going to appreciate this opposition. Like how many of these characters have cover from that or are worried about that is just sort of like an interesting thing to think about. Like this is a bold thing to declare for the side against Aryon, Maekar, Daeron and the Gharn. They don't know when they're standing here for Dunk that Balor is going to rise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. But like Robin rising is like, like guess what, I'm cuckoo bananas. So who cares, right? And then the Humphreys are like listen, is anyone going to begrudge us going up against Aryan when he did this shit to us? And then Lynel Brathian's like I have the second biggest dick in the kingdom.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right. And I'm going to promise sing you a song about it at some point.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I have the second big. Have you seen how big my antlers are?

[Mallory Rubin]

They're huge though. Does that mean he has a tiny dick?

[Joanna Robinson]

Probably.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's compensating. He is compensating for something.

[Joanna Robinson]

His dick is probably bad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh man. So Humphrey Harding, yeah he's got the personal motivation. The debt is Aryans he says and we mean to collect it. So a little bit of like yeah, you're going against the crown here before Baila rides out. But also like I've got the COVID of this is my personal vendetta. And this guy took something for me and I get to try to take it back.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Beesbury's like Ditto's like same ditto but in law.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ditto but in law. So Robin, we did get a scene with. We actually I thought that's like interesting that he was. We got to have a scene with him but not Beesbury. I think you must be right about the cut material. It's kind of the. It doesn't really make sense otherwise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Release the Beesbury Cut. Release the steely pate. Cut. Release Aegon. Going to recruit the troops?

[Mallory Rubin]

That'd be great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would watch a show.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would watch it all. There's probably some extra stuff with. With Red and Daisy and Bayony. I would watch. Why not?

[Joanna Robinson]

More women talking.

[Mallory Rubin]

More women talking.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who wants that?

[Mallory Rubin]

Robin, of course. We. We saw him interact with Egg and Thunder at the beginning of episode three. So what he says here is, Sir Robin would die the king's faithful servant. But when the crown goes against the gods, Sir Robin goes against the crown.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very much like a man has to have his code. He's got his own code. Here's the deal. Tell me if I'm doing a trial by Seven ever in my life, I won't make you fight on my side. Don't worry.

[Mallory Rubin]

You won't have to make me. I'll do it gladly. Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, but what?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but what?

[Joanna Robinson]

You're too precious to me. And I don't want you on the front line.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would be fierce out there. I. I would be fierce.

[Joanna Robinson]

She is tiny, but she is fierce.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would be fierce.

[Joanna Robinson]

You were. You would be. I need someone who speaks in the third person on my side. And this is what?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, you have all those other spots. Carlos can do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, but I'm just saying that's. That's my main point. Whether or not you're on my team. I guess you are on my team. And you're very first. Sound like I wanted to. So I want someone who's cuckoo bananas enough to speak about themselves in the third person. I think you really want that berserker energy on your side.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. It's nice that we got time with Robin in episode three, but particularly useful that we got to like, get the established. Oh, he's mad enough to make a choice like this. There for the warrior. Of course, I. I like the like when the crown goes against the gods. Again, seven playing so many different roles here. The warrior part of the Seven. But like. Like this idea that the horror of what Arryon has done is undeniable. Undeniable. And so he can invoke trial of 7. They can invoke the Andal tradition, the gods, if there are seven more likely to have a just ruling. But then somebody like Sir Robin, who has forged his whole identity around wrapping himself up in the idea of justice and righteousness and religious fanaticism is going to be like, you know, actually, you guys have that backwards. This is like a befoulment. Great stuff. And then Lionel, one of the strokes of genius of the season to give us more time with him really bears fruit here. Just makes it make more sense in so many ways. He and Dunk have a relationship.

[Joanna Robinson]

An apple pun.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could be.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Could be.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are. Are you. There's a Helms already thinking about the rose gold armor. You can't wait to talk about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do think that armor looked great and I do, I do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is he a fool? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But all men are knights and all men are fools. For armor is concerned. I think we know that by now. I was thinking about with Lionel being here. He's got his own reasons as we'll go through. But what Dunk said about Arlen earlier in the season to Egg at the end of episode two and he's like, he was a hard man to know. And just the fact that Dunk is out there, like having these moments with Lionel and bonding and like he. He's not a hard man to know. Like he is allowing someone like Lionel to get to know him. And that matters. Arlen had no enemies, but as we've talked about. Did he have friends? Nobody remembered his name other than Baylor.

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's just not going to be the case with Dunk.

[Joanna Robinson]

Everyone's going to remember Sir Duncan the tall and the attorney at Ashram Meadow.

[Mallory Rubin]

We already talked a little bit about this earlier. Anything else you want to say about Lionel and his relationship to legacy and how that's driving him?

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I want to talk about the rose gold armor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, you know, inside. Within every man, there are many men. And on many men there are many notable plates of armor.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think Lionel Barathan has had many men inside of him?

[Mallory Rubin]

No question. When. When Lionel and Dunk were dancing and sharing good cheer at the beginning of the season, I. What I saw personally. Was he at rivalry season two?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm here for it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've seen. I've literally seen that edit.

[Mallory Rubin]

I bet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't really get edits unless you send them to me. And you're not on TikTok anymore. So I'll send you. I'll need to get that in my.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll send you Lionel my reels. Algo Lionel and Dunk dancing to tattoo. I guarantee you it exist.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fantastic stuff. He is, of course, the character who utters who the fuck is Sir Stevron? Yeah, we already love Lionel, but if we hadn't already loved him, this would be the moment that forever enshrined him in our hearts because that is just absolutely wonderful. And then, you know, egg is like. Because Raymond Got the Humphries, but Egg got Lionel. Got Robin this like I could if I wanted. Opening note that we talked about with Egg earlier. That's like smartass insolence. This is a Titanic declaration of genuine allegiance. It is follow through of the high street. We're mostly talking today about Dunk Balor. Raymond, we can't. We cannot talk enough about Egg and what he has chosen to do here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's amazing. Sir Stavron. He flips Jo. He turns heel Dunk walks into the arena. The crowd is still tension in the air.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mr. Policeman, I gave you all the clues. Truly, Raymond, this entire time's like. Like my cousin's underhanded. My cousin sucks. My cousin sucks so bad. He likes to go up against wounded people.

[Mallory Rubin]

Constantly telling me I'm not ripe. Called you a. Literally the second he saw you mocked your hedges.

[Joanna Robinson]

Huge surprise. He flipped. Yeah. But this is, this is such. Because seven great 1 Stefan showing up at the last second.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And saying, ooh, actually you're going to need someone else because I've. I'm. I'm for Aryan. And like so he has Duncan so badly here because.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he's not trying to hide it.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. But he's just like the la. He's like, oh, sorry. Not only am I not fighting with you, but now you're a man down. And if you're a man down, can't do it. You're can't even do it at all. They're going to make me a lord though, so don't worry about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really wanted that Lordship. Really wanted that Lordship.

[Joanna Robinson]

Told Sir Duncan to rely on you. That's what I'm saying is like, it's very folksy.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It absolutely is. It's incredible stuff from Raymond here. This is an incredible. Raymond, run. I think that, that Sir Stephan, you told Duncan to.

[Joanna Robinson]

To you. You told Sir Duncan to rely on ya, as you've written here in his notes, versus you told him to rely on you. Which is what it definitely says.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. In the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, 100%.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very notably.

[Joanna Robinson]

100%.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's great. I fight with Prince Aryan and the accusers. Like the kind of like chill that seeps into your heart and your bones when you hear that. George. This is just vintage George.

[Joanna Robinson]

But like you're just on a whirly gig of emotions here at the end of the. Of the episode. Right. Because it's like Sir Step, like Lionel's there and the Humphreys are there and Rising's there. Great. And then, and then Stefan's like, I'm for Prince Aryan. And then Raymond's like, like, knight me right now. I'm gonna fight with you. And then they're like, still one another. And then here comes the bracken farts.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then here comes Ray. It is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Woo. It's just like.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then the Thrones theme plays.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the best. Raymond being so beside himself here. The fact that Stefan has no shame, right? He's just like my self interest as a parent. Why would I feel bad about this? I have no problem telling you that. This is the thing I'm going to do. You told Sir Duncan to rely on you. You traded your honor for a lordship. The way that he spits on the ground. Raymond slams the helmet into him. Get him yourself about his horse named. His horse named Roth. But in the book, there's this extra degree of, like, cavalier. I don't even remember that I said this to him, which is so fucking galling and insulting. You told him to rely on you. Raymond had gone pale. Did I? He took the helm from his cousin's hands. No doubt I was sincere at the time. Fuck this guy. Fuck this guy and his really stupid armor. I think the armor looks great. Is it practical? We'll find out. But I think it looks great. Guard your tongue, Raymond, he says, in the books, we're both apples from the same tree and you are my squire. Or have you forgotten your vows? No, Raymond says. Have you forgotten yours? You swore to be a knight. So another one of those lines and ideas. Oh, my God, it's just so, so, so good, this novella in the show. So, so, so good. Dunk forced to see. And when this happens with Stefan, another moment, another scale is falling from the eye moment where, like, okay, nobody remembered Arlen can't change.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wouldn't let me enter the list.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is Dunk not a ginger?

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like a strawberry blonde.

[Mallory Rubin]

Strawberry blonde.

[Joanna Robinson]

Whereas I would say Manfred Dondarrion. Oh, man.

[Mallory Rubin]

Truly.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so, yeah, Ser Stevran are classic gingers.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's funny because in the. In the novella, one of the people who he directs, it's a little bit different when he makes his big speech. He's making direct appeals to people, as we'll talk about, and Manfred is one of them. And it's like the show had done too much work on the Manfred Darian.

[Joanna Robinson]

Try and worry about it. Oh, man.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's like, yeah, he's got to confront how little honor means to most. Except for my guy. Is that Squire Raymond's music?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think you mean Sir Raven Fossilway?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. This is the best ignite me. I will take my cousin's place.

[Joanna Robinson]

So hot. So good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it is.

[Joanna Robinson]

And this is our number one, I would say, evidence that Sir Duncan has not been knighted. Because it is clearer, no question in the book than it is in the show here, that the reason he hesitates to knight Raymond is that it's any night can make a night. And he's like, I'm not a kn. Willing to. And I'm willing to lie about myself, right.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I can't.

[Joanna Robinson]

But now I'm gonna, like, pyramid scheme this whole thing. And which. What night is Raymond gonna make it? It's just gonna be nights all the way down, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

So, like, not the coaching tree that Dunk wants.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. So he's like.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then in both cases, the horn blows, and Lionel's like, get out of here.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll got it, man. I got it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I got it. But I love that, like, Lionel's watching the whole thing happen with Stefan, and so he, like, sort of wanders over, you know? It's like. Yeah, so he's like, paul. Yeah, so he just, like, wanders over. He's like, I'll do it. And then, like, when he does it. Yeah, sorry, I know I'm getting ahead. But, like, when he does it. Daniel Ings has been so good as Lyman Baratheon, like, this whole season, but he's like a clown in his own right, you know? And then it's so serious.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Takes a serious thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. That Duncan is lying about. And the difference between, like, Lionel taking it so seriously and being so sort of, like, honorable, dramatic about it. And then Arlen. Arlen just being like, the shrug.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible stuff. We're gonna see that shrug in a second here. I can't wait. In terms of what Raymond is doing now, you noted this is a moment of consequence in history. So there's a part of this where it's like, I wanna be a knight. This would be pretty cool. But, like, let's be clear, as we've already noted, likely to be a bloodbath. Guess who we heard that from in this episode. Raymond. Like, the stakes are clear. The prospect of something terrible happening to you is clear. He is swearing off a member of his own family, the senior branch of the apple tree, as we hear time and time again. This could not be braver. Like, what Raymond is doing, it is one of the. The best examples and encapsulations of loyalty.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because part of what he finds so galling and offensive. And what Stefan has done is like, you gave him your word. Does that mean nothing? Loyalty, which is, of course a form of honor. So there's honor just in abundance. It is oozing off Raymond here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, what Balor does at the end of this episode, during which I cried, is a massive deal because this is, you know, this is heir to the throne. He's going against his own family, like, all this other stuff. But, like, as we talk about levels of. Of privilege, Squire Raymond Fossoway from the lesser branch of the Fossoway family tree, being like, I'll do it, you know, like, that's like Frodo being like, I'll carry the ring. Exactly. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, though I do not know the way, you know, Raymond has no armor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Small hands do it because they must.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's not a knight, and he's just sort of like, I'll do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

It.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it. His exposure is so much higher than Baylor's exposure. Even though, like, Baylor is, like, quite exposed as hand. As hand of the King and heir to the Iron Throne. But, like, he's a seasoned warrior, incredible fighter. This is a huge, huge advantage for Duncan's team that Baylor is joining. Joining the team here, like, this is just massive. Raymond's like, I'll do my best. I'll do my best. I guess we've seen him fight against Stefan at the beginning of the season.

[Mallory Rubin]

It did not do great.

[Joanna Robinson]

It didn't go well for him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did not do great.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, you know, it's just. It's such a moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's God tier. It really is. I read this line on Talk the Thrones, but there's a moment. This is from slightly earlier in the novella, but when Dunk makes out the curve of the Fosseway apple in the distance, and the line is, it looked like hope.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hope. It looked like hope.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, that's what. That's what Raymond is giving him here. Ah, it's just the best. So Raymond nails Dunk, reaches for a sword, and he hesitates. As you noted, as we talked about with Chris on. On Sunday or Friday, whatever day that was. What is time readers have spent years, some debating, mostly believing, as we've talked about a lot earlier today, that Dunk was not knighted.

[Joanna Robinson]

We did get an email from a listener being like, it had literally never occurred to me before. You guys were talking about it on the pod. So, like, there are some people who read, you know, whatever.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, there are a number of different nuggets. We already shared the monstrous lie line, which is a really big data point that we and other people point to. But as you noted, this scene, there's also, like, the burning of the bang in the ears when it's like, who knighted you? What's going on? Et cetera. This scene is a really big one that was true in the novella, but it is ratcheted up here by incorporating that cut to Sir Arin. To Sir Arlen. Carlos, can we see the shrug? Watch this pot on your video app, Spotify.

[Joanna Robinson]

So good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it full confirmation? No. But is it certainly a big indication? Yes. I thought that that was a fascinating choice to include that, both for what it tells us, but also because it means it's on Dunk's mind.

[Joanna Robinson]

We got an email from our listener Lauren, about sort of like, why some of the many reasons why Sir Arlyn wouldn't knight Sir Dunk. We just called him Sir Dunk because that's who he is in my heart, anyway. Why do you think Arlen did not knight Duncan?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, I guess my assumption, just based on a moment like that, the shrug being included, is that the show intends to answer that for us at some point. Like, I would.

[Joanna Robinson]

I am ne.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because again, it is not. It's not definitively confirmed at this point in the text, even though there's a lot of evidence.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we do know. Skip ahead if you don't want any trailer spoilers. I guess Skip Ahead is like, there will be flash more flashbacks than we've seen is something we know from the trailer. So will we get more information on this concretely?

[Mallory Rubin]

And so, you know, I guess there are a number of possibilities. Is it. I think that we have gotten enough moments in the story and certainly in the show where Dunk is forced to kind of confront the less savory aspects of how Arlen treated him and the way that he behaved, that there could be a kind of, like, lack of care. That's possible. I think it could be that he intended to one day and just didn't. And then he died and meant to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Die from a cut.

[Mallory Rubin]

Didn't mean to die. I mean, he was just fucking up a storm until the last second they were laughing, huddled in the rain with their hard salt beef. And then he dropped dead. And Duncan had to bury him in a very shallow grave. Very shallow grave. Do you have a theory for what the reason is most likely to.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't have a good theory, but I really do believe that he meant to eventually. Like, he's training Him. Like, I do think he meant to eventually.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think there could be a real. There could be an intention and a lesson in, like, almost the thing that fans have latched onto and that we talk about a lot of like, well, does it matter? Isn't one of the key lessons of the story that the thing that matters more is the choice that you make, the way that you live your life, and that maybe that was something Arlen was trying to actually teach him by withholding that.

[Joanna Robinson]

He doesn't seem that to me. But, like, I. I also think. What's it like? Yeah, great point. I also think I understand what you're saying. I got the joke.

[Mallory Rubin]

Talking about his giant dick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, do you want to do the hand gesture yet?

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. So I think. I think this story is different if dunk is 17.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's like Arlen meant to make him a knight maybe when he turned 18 or something like that, but, like, you know, he's 30 something, and it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like he spent a lot of time being like, I've got to get you. You gotta. You gotta to sheath that sword. You got to dip that quill. Got to take you to a brothel so that you can. But we're going to wait. We're going to hold off.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm going to take a hard left turn from the sixth grade boy alley that you found yourself in.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, of all the shows where it's completely appropriate, it's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. Our listener Michal wrote this great email, which I thought was so beautiful. While Dunk may not be slash, definitely isn't officially actually a knight, the way the episode framed Lionel's knighting of Raymond read to me like the show offering our guy a kind of spiritual dubbing. The slow motion, the voiceover, the shots of Dunk handling thunder like a boss, and then from abuzz above as if he's kneeling in front of the viewer, all seemed deliberate, formal, and most importantly, transformative. Dunk has already been through a night of vigil and contemplation, albeit not in the traditional sense. Now, in simple armor and stained tabard, the words of the absent oath wash over him, and he takes on his new form. He becomes Sir Duncan, who doesn't just fight for justice and honor with instinct and bare fist, but a man who can take the field of battle, stand up to a formal challenge, and offer an even greater one in return. And so, just. Just for people who don't know all the ins and outs of becoming a knight, when you're a squire, to become A knight in. In many versions of this, you spend the night before you're dubbing in a chapel. This is like the night's vigil. So this idea of like Dunk, sleepless night in a jail cell is his night's vigil before this official dubbing. I just, I thought it was really beautiful and like the show is definitely like if not literally this, you know, just having him kneel there while Raymond is kneeling and Lionel is saying the words is, you know, no question in hand. Inand with all those moments that Baylor says rise Sir Duncan.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I love that email. I love your. Your. Your observation earlier of tracking the little knightings along the way. I think it's possible that at some point again, to be clear, we don't know, genuinely don't know if this will happen because this is not confirmed either way in the canon yet. I think it's possible at some point that Dunk is like formally knocked and that that could be a very meaningful moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think later he's like egg, can you just do this and don't tell anyone maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean it's possible later like you know, it's interesting. Again, Brienne's always can a prince make a Knight? Can a 9 year old and a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can any royal make a knight? I actually don't know the answer to that.

[Mallory Rubin]

A king can make a night.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, a king can make. But can a prince make a night?

[Mallory Rubin]

Call up Darren ii. Okay, he's got time because he didn't come to Astra Meadow. Everyone else is very busy. It's true, everyone else is very busy. But you know, we've talked about this many times on many pods in the past. We will talk about it in the future. One of our shared favorite moments. And, and it's obviously on our mind here when Lionel says any knight can make a knight is Jamie Nightingale. We love it. Season 8 Episode 2 just I think of it daily. Life altering truly. And so we want to be clear we would not lose that moment for anything. It is precious to us and sacred to us. But however, Brienne was a knight before that. She was in all of her actions and the things that she did. And so I kind of like the idea of like eventually Dunk getting a. In a kind of parallel. A formal moment that would be meaningful to him and would be beautiful especially if he shared it with certain people who meant that much to him. But also that he would know and we would know. Yeah, like thunder there, nodding along.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That he was a knight well before the tip of that Sword touched his shoulder. Raymond, I. I should not. Do you doubt my courage? No, no, not that. But still, when he leaves, he's feeling as relieved as he was guilty. On and on the evidence goes, we. We'll keep talking about this as we. As we cover future episodes and seasons. But Lionel's like, don't worry, I got you. Everything that happens here for Raymond is great. Being knighted by the laughing storm is just alltime sick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Awesome sick.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's amazing. With respect to dunk in this moment right here. This is like. Raymond's got to be like. This is pretty good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sir Stevron wishes.

[Mallory Rubin]

No doubt. Sir Stevron wishes. He's like, yeah, I know the laughing storm. Do you? That is such a great thing for Raymond to be able to brag about to the laughing storm. Doesn't know who the you are, except that you're an embarrassment and a turn.

[Joanna Robinson]

He knighted me.

[Mallory Rubin]

He knighted me. We got chills watching this. The tonal shift from Lionel, as you noted, the slowing of the rhythm of the scene, the shift in the camera angles, the incorporation of Duncan Arlen with Lionel and Raymond. We have to see it. In the name of the warrior, I.

[Joanna Robinson]

Charge you to be brave. In the name of the father, I charge you to be just. In the name of the mother, I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Charge you to protect the young and innocent. This is so good. Will you ever hear or see this in your mind when you think about a knighting? Or will it always be Jamie and Brienne first?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's Jaime and Brienne first, but this second, the second. And who knows what time will tell. Also, I should mention, you know, like we've mentioned a few times, the way the Thrones, the original Thrones theme kicks in at the end. But that, that. That score. Haunting and beautiful. Really, really good. Can we return to the seven theory?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, we got a bunch of emails for people. So to recap, in case you didn't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Listen to last, this is animated. The Bhad babies, it has.

[Joanna Robinson]

Love it. They love a theory. If you.

[Mallory Rubin]

They know to hold it loosely, but they love a theory.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, you're not. If you were not here for the three and a half hours we spent talking about this show last week, this is a theory I picked up from a comment somewhere about this idea that like the seven are present here at the tourney and helping dunk along the way, much the way that Athena disguises herself for Odysseus and sort of helps his journey along the way. She shows up in many different forms inside of the Odyssey, which we Will talk about soon. This year on this podcast mere months away, our listener Mihail wrote in. I'm not gonna say all of the ways in which they mapped, but casting Baelor as the mother, I thought was a really interesting connection. Sir Lionel is the father. A lot of people think Ser Robin Reisling is the warrior. So does Ser Robin. But this is the kicker of this email. Duncan is the maiden. Is Duncan our canonical virgin? Perhaps, Isaiah wondered, could Darren be the stranger, outcast, wanderer, and related to death in the sense that his dreams predict or in that way deliver death, which I really liked. John Michael. Jean Michel said, sir Arlen is the father, potentially.

[Mallory Rubin]

Certainly not the maid.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sean says the stranger is steely pate. My man sent Dunk to joust and now faced trial by combat without a breastplate after talking all that trash on everyone else's over decorating, but at least existing full plate armor. Dude should have to partake in the trial of Seven for attempted murder.

[Mallory Rubin]

Listen, he spent a lot of time being like, mine will serve you better if you take a lance to the face. Less time talking about what would happen if you took any sort of sharp object.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just ringmail here. Just ringmail right here. Okay, but it's double chain. So Hannah said, do you think we're not learning anything about Sir Humphrey Beesbury because he's representing the stranger in dunk 7?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure, let's go with that as the reason why.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then Amber said, fellow witches. You'll always get it for me if you say fellow witches. Amber wrote, the mother, I thought it's the prostitute, the one that told them to be kind to Dunk. The look on her face, as Baelor wrote in, I believe, made me think maternal vibes.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I did like that we got a cut to Red because especially in this. On the. On the precipice of the trial of Seven and this really dire circumstance, remembering that she was like, be kind to your body. Yeah, you've only got one.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. And then this is the blessing of the Seven theory, which is an older theory off of Reddit from Oneis Dracontos. Sure, I did my best and it wasn't very good. VR listener Vivian. And this is not that characters but that sequence that we were talking about that leads up to Steely pace saying, like all the people who come to greet Duncan on the way in, the small folk on the way to the tourney field. Yeah. So this is what this theory reads the Smith. The first aspect of the seven who are one to have blessed Dunk is The Smith. An allegory of work and creativity. He's represented in Steely Pate. Indeed. A blacksmith who, quote, blesses Dunk by fixing his shield in exchange for a symbolic payment, a copper penny to emphasize the idea of Pate, accompanies Dunk to the camp of the trial and calls him a true knight, or more precisely, quote, a knight who remembered his vows. The Mother. On his way to the site of the trial, Dunk crosses paths with a series of people who wish him well in the fight. Quote. A few steps farther on, a woman called out, good fortune to you. Yeah. End quote. The three female aspects of the Andal God are the mother, the virgin and the crone. Since the woman is described as neither young nor old, the most likely hypothesis is that this bringer of good fortune represents the mother, an allegory of love and mercy. The Crone after the woman, an old man approaches Dunk who invokes divine strength. Quote. An old man stepped up to take his hand and said, may the gods give you strength, sir. End quote. Despite being a man and not a woman, the fact that George R. Martin emphasized the character seniority suggests that he represents the Crone, an allegory of the wisdom that should guide the faithful. However, it should be noted that even Steely Pate is partially associated with his aspect, since he has previously described holding a lantern. One of the Crone Crone's features. Right. The warrior after the old man Dunk meets a begging brother, a humble member of the faith clergy, who blesses his sword. Quote. Then a begging brother in a tattered brown robe said a blessing on his sword. End quote. The focus on Dunk's weapon suggests that the character represents the warrior, an allegory of courage and strength in battle. The Maiden after the begging brother Dunk receives a kiss from a young girl. Quote. And a maid kissed his cheek. She evidently represents the maiden, an allegory of innocence and chastity. The father Dunk manages to find five allies. Raymond Fossey, Robin Risley, Lionel Baratheon, Humphrey Harding and Humphrey Beesbury. One is missing in order for Dunk to be able to fight for his innocence. And suddenly, Balor Breakspear Targaryen shows up as Dunk's sixth champion. Not having his own armor available, the prince borrowed that of his son Valar. Quote. Then came a voice. I will take Sir Duncan's side. You're going to read this entire quote later, so I will let you do that. But he says. But he mentioned specifically his armor. My son was good enough to lend me his End quote Baylor the hand of the King Darren II and his heir has a reputation as a righteous man and takes part in the trial, highlighting the fact that he is a sire. He embodies the aspect of the Father, an allegory of divine power and justice. And last but not least, the stranger. Dunk is a nobody. And yet six illustrious knights who before the ash returning he did not know in person take his side despite the fact that he did not think it was possible. Quote 6 Knights Dunk thought they might as well have told him to find 6,000. He had no brothers, no cousins, no old comrades who had stood beside him in battle. Why would six strangers risk their own lives to defend a hedge knight against two royal princelings? End quote the six providential champions fighting alongside Dunk represent the Stranger, an allegory of the unknown and particularly of death. The favor granted to Dunk by the stranger, an ambiguous aspect of the Andal God, neither male nor female, both human and beast steal is revealed in its duplicity as both blessing and curse.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hot shit.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just hot shit from like over a year ago on on the old Reddit.com but just like you know this stuff is fun, really fun to me in terms of like you can map it any way you want but I love this idea that the seven are here and they are present and there is something as as much of a farce as this trial is in the first place. There is some, some divine hand guiding the way for Duncan here to at least have six people by his side and a sword and a shield and some armor like you know that like Odysseus on his way horse like horrible things happen to Odysseus on the way home. Spoiler. Every so often Athena is here nudging him in one direction or another to get the things he needs to continue his journey. And I just think that that is such a cool idea that I love that we like first sort of raised last week that our listeners have wrote in about that people have been thinking about for years as it comes to.

[Mallory Rubin]

This text the best I mean we'll obviously we'll circle back to it after we see how it all goes and map things on one more time but I love it as well and I love much like with a prophecy or a dream the way that these symbols can fit in a number of different ways and that it's all valid. Like I have always I I I I'm excited to talk about this more next week but like I think the the as you just read the. The framing of Baylor, the association with Baylor as the father is, I think, very apparent. But to get an email characterizing Baylor as the mother, like, actually is also very compelling and makes a lot of sense, I think, to that last point that you were making. The idea that the Trial of Seven.

[Joanna Robinson]

Love and mercy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, Mercy. Mercy. Especially, like, I. I think that the terror is real. The sense that this is daunting and impossible is real. And that's part of what the Trial of Seven brings. That smugness from Aryon that he is in a position to survive this, navigate this, do it at all in a way that Dunk isn't. And the volume of it, the scale of it, the scope of it is part of what gives him that. And to flip that and to make that a source of community for Dunk, it's just such a beautiful way to think about it. I'm excited to keep tracking that theory and returning to it. I think it's a great one. Fantastic stuff. None of the characters in. Despite the book passage and the people in the assembled, fitting many of those descriptions, as you just read in the show, none of the characters here in the grandstands are going to be listed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nope.

[Mallory Rubin]

But Dunk has to appeal anyway. So Raymond has replaced Steffan, Stevron. But Dunk is still one short. And he learns from Arian and then confirmed by Lord Ashfin. It's seven or bust.

[Joanna Robinson]

Man, that's a dumb rule.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. You should be able to decide. But again, if they're like, you're on the back. It's all about the seven and the gods. So, like, they almost are disadvantage.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he's like, no, no, you can't.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can't. And so he. He begs a moment to address the crowd, right? He rides out. And this is different in the book, as. As I mentioned, because he is like Sir Arlen, Sir Arlen, Sir Manfred, Sir Otho, making direct appeals, invoking Arlen. But in the show, we've seen that already. We've seen him go to all of these characters at the end of episode one, the beginning of the episode two, and ask them if they remember Arlen. And they don't. And so in the show, it's this really brilliant little tweak where he's not saying, do you remember Arlen? He's like, I know you don't. You've already shown me who you are.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And yet I'm gonna give you one more chance.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it's this great moment for Dunk where It's like such a. It could be so defeating and crushing. But I felt such pride here because he's like, learning and growing and adapting, and we're watching him on that journey. It's like a great little origin story moment. He was a good man, he says, marlon. And he taught me how to be a knight. Not just sword and lance, but honor. A knight defends the innocent. That's. That's all I did. I was not Sir Arlan's blood, but I have followed his example as your sons will follow yours. Who will stand and fight with me from. I don't know the right words when he was burying Arlen to this.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think I love a speech on horseback.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God, it's great, but it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is not this day.

[Mallory Rubin]

My favorite, as you know, death.

[Joanna Robinson]

This day we fight. That's Theoden King death. Or, you know, it's out of fashion now because Mel Gibson sucks. But Braveheart, you know, like, they may take our lands, we'll never take our freedom. Like, it's a talent to do a speech on horseback. I feel like all of these speeches originate from. This is the second, but the last time I will reference William Shakespeare in this. But the Saint Christmas Day is always welcome. He is. But the Saint Christmas Day speech from Henry V is like the epitome of the pre battle, let us inspire speech. And I was. I was looking back at it and there's. There's a couple. There's, you know, the whole thing worth watching, worth listening to if you watch Brenna do it or anyone do it, who cares. But this idea of Saint Christmas Day, the speech that he gives, that Henry gives here is about. As he's psyching up his army to go fight, he's like, we're fighting on this day, Saint Christmas Day, and forever in history, people will remember this day, Saint Christmas Day, and they will remember what we did here. And they will remember who was here. And he says, familiar in his mouth as household words, Harry the King, Baylor, Bedford and Exeter, Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and gloves Seven. He lists seven names here, right? And he's like, be in their flowing cubs freshly remembered. This story shall the good men teach their son. So like, this idea of like your sons won't like. When we see the brood of Bracken let go this fart.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

He sits down and wraps his arm around his son, right? And this is what Duncan is saying is like, I followed example as your son will follow yours, right? And so like, this is. This is what is true in the Saint Christmas Day speeches.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like the brackens. It's probably true, by the way, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

What are you, a black one? So, like, I think that. I think what. What it's always worth remembering is this moment inside of. And you can agree or disagree, and largely I disagree, that, like, war should be this enshrined, but inside of these medieval or Renaissance or whatever texts, like, this idea of, like, there's nothing. There's nothing more important than this, what we are about to do. For honor, for duty, for love, for whatever it is. We are warriors. We are fighters. We are putting our very flesh on the line. And it is going to be worth it for generations. Right? Every.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm going to paraphrase, every dude who's not here with us.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Everyone who's sleeping right now is gonna wish they were here, right? Every year when Saint Christmas Day rolls around, they're gonna be like, I should have been there. You sitting there in the stands are gonna wish you were down here on my team. The seven fighting at this tourney at Ashford Meadow because it is going to be enshrined in history, what we do here today, standing up for honor and for duty and for love. And the tales will grow in the telling of it, as they did with Saint Christmas Day. Right? It becomes this myth. And you weren't there. You really had to be there. If you were Exeter Gloucester, you were there. But if you weren't, you weren't there. You know? And so I just, like, I. I love this speech. And I love thinking about what Dunk here says here is so true. He's greeted with jeers and with silence and with farts, and we'll talk about that in a second. But like. But, like, they're all going to be so embarrassed. And who's watching who's in the stand? It's not just the Brackens. The Blackwoods are there. The Lannisters are there. The Dundarians are there. The T's are there. And every single family is here. They have sent someone here to goddamn Ashford Meadow. And so they're going to tell the tale for generations.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sigil spotting everywhere in every region.

[Joanna Robinson]

Those puppeteers are going back to Dorn. They're going to tell you what the fuck happened there. You know what I mean? Every single region are going to tell the tale of Sir Duncan the tall and a B or brace spear riding out onto the field.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, my God. Um, I. I love that. It's always great when the Bard appears. It is. He's always here, I think. What's What I particularly love about that is there's a version of this moment where Stefan Sir Stevron is giving this speech and is only hitting that note like the glory, the glory. Do it for the glory. Have you had a tough day? Try more glory. And Dunk is starting to see the world more clearly and make an appeal and understand. But he's thinking of it first of all through such a personal lens but also still so rooted in the idea of what is right. So like I love that he's talking about Arlen especially because we got the shrug. We got the cut to the shrug and we are carrying that with us. We know Dunk is thinking that, right? But he's still like on the morrow we're gonna show them what his hand has wrought. Now in totality. So what like we've been talking about all season in is he seeing more clearly about Arlen, but what is he still championing? Where is a lesson that he's still heeding that he hopes other people will find power in too? And so the brute of Bracken making a fucking farce of this moment is akin to him making a farce of Dunk's entire life, right? And it so bruta Bracken very quickly, like if he had said, yes, I'm with you. The other side quakes. They're terrified because he is not only the brute of Bracken, Bracken's Blackwoods, we talked about him a lot across Hot Digs. But he killed Quentin Blackwood just a few years ago. 206 AC in Attorney in King's Landing in hideous and fabled infamous fashion. People know who he is. He is like a champion of note who can do horrible things. The fact that he of all people is the one who stands up, looks at his son and then rips this fart once more. Must you mock me? Kind of a note for Dunk, but like he's not deterred by it. And the thing that he leans into then is. Is that beat of like, what is the true heart of this right? So the like the. The Lyanna Mormont like, but you refuse the call indictment of who they are. Has courage deserted the noble houses of Westeros? I will not believe it is so. Are there no true knights among you? It's more of the. The scales falling from the eyes. Seeing them clearly, not wanting to believe that's who they are, even though they've shown him time and time again that that's who they are. But it's like he's not just saying, come be famous. He's saying a true knight would know that this is right. Are none of you able to see that this is right? That what I did was right and what he did was wrong?

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. And I think, I mean to I and I don't think you're saying this but I, I don't ever think of the Christmas Day speech is like just about glory and history, remember? I know you're not saying that but like the, the we few, we happy few, we band of brothers. Like if you, if you spill your blood here with me today, then you are forever my brother and it does not matter where you rank in society. You know, I'm not saying that about.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just the difference between how other people in dung spot totally would but I make the pitch.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I do think what's interesting about the Saint Christmas Day speech is that it is there is like that, that, that note of upward mobility inside of you. If you, I don't care who you are, if you fought with me here today, you're on the up and up and you know you are forever going to have that. Whether or not that was actually true in terms of Henry's reign is probably not the case. But anyway also for the Bruta Bracken, I should say his fans are a little pissed about this fart situation because in the book the Bruta Bracken is the only person who deigns to respond to dunk. Right. He says that may be said the Brudda Bracken has who at least the grace to reply but is your cause not mine. I know you not boy.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I would say that the television adaptations are you know, it's complex always especially inside of the Brack and Blackwood feud say they tend to be more pro Blackwood than pro Bracken as a rule.

[Joanna Robinson]

I, I, I did think the email that got my listener Ash who is who called it yet more blatant Blackwood propaganda was like really funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

We probably don't have time for me to read the entirety of this incredible email we got from Max who does like an Alice with three fingers level dissertation on the fart. Just like one of the best emails I've ever read from a bad baby is like incredibly good because he's like citing Rabelais and and a lot of stuff but talking about Max wove together this tapestry. I'm just going to do Matt bestest MRIs taking us from the Game of Thrones theme that starts season one episode one with the like what you like to call the hippo spray right.

[Mallory Rubin]

The yeah spot to lie you can't.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then we wind up here with the Game of Thrones theme song without that association. But on that journey, what Max is arguing, and this is like a tradition of a certain kind of literature is this idea. And like, like, I don't. I don't. I've not read the Rabe source that he is citing here, but I have read Canterbury Tales. Canterbury Tales is like hugely body. And like, you know, people's like. And like Women's Lady Gardens and like all, you know, like it's. It's body parts are everywhere.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shout out chaser.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And so. But it's the great equalizer. Everybody shits and everybody farts. And so this idea that like you can. You can make yourself the whitest white knight in the kingsguard and you still have to find a place to poo. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is what I was saying last time.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, I know, I know, I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm so here for this.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I'm just saying, like, when the brute of Bracken lets go this fart, Max's point was like he's up there in the stand with the nobles and he farts too. And this is the great equalizer. And so it's like this idea of like, it is revealing the humanity in all of us. Us. And also associating like Dunks expulsions, which are both in the. And then in the puking later due to like nerves and anxiety and a desire to be honorable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then linking it to the fart and the bruta Bracken, who is just there for like, for derision and humor. Actually Dunks massive bout of diarrhea is more pure and honorable.

[Mallory Rubin]

Certainly it's the bodily function of the people around him.

[Joanna Robinson]

I probably did Max a huge service in summing summering up. Summing up the whole thing. But like, I love it. Gallant knighthood isn't something Dunk has to aspire to despite his having a body that shits and vomits. It's something that has always accrued to him precisely because he lives by a code that recognizes every human. And they're excreting body. Body is just as valuable as every other.

[Mallory Rubin]

Again, Red would chime in and say, take care of your body. You've only got the one.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really good stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you, Max. Yeah. We will always accept thesis level dissertations on bodily functions. And so will Ira Parker. I think that's clear.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will we get another piss or poop thing in the fifth episode?

[Joanna Robinson]

Probably. Almost certainly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Feels like a lock. I can't wait to find out what it Is feels like a lock.

[Joanna Robinson]

Baylor.

[Mallory Rubin]

He missed the Bruta Bracken farting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think he was. I saw some. I saw some great Instagram reels of people, like, pretending to be Baylor, like, waiting for his moment. He's like, listening to the speech. He's like, here we go. This is gonna be a really cool time to come. Then he has to, like, wait.

[Mallory Rubin]

Warm up music.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dunk gets one more great line.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are there no true knights among you? That's my cue.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's my cue.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's.

[Mallory Rubin]

No matter what he does creak open like, that's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

No matter what is true of, like, Balor timing, it takes a long time to get into armor plate, armor and a lot of people to help you for sure. Especially if that armor belongs to your smaller son. So it's not quite your size.

[Mallory Rubin]

Pretty tight.

[Joanna Robinson]

So you have to like, tight fit. Jimmy yourself in there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Dick joke.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yep. I always get it. Except for sometimes I don't. And so this is something that Baylor decided on a while ago. He didn't decide it because Sir Stavron decided not to keep his vow. Balor decided this a couple hours ago. At least. The very least.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. Pregame ritual. Let's see this. Carlos, before we talk about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will take the Duncan side. Just an incredible moment. Let's read the passage from the book, because everybody thinks that it is Prince Valar. Across the field, Prince Aryan laughed. The dragon is not mocked, he called out. Then came a voice. I will take Duncan's side. A black stallion emerged from out of the river mists. A black knight on his back. Dunk saw the dragon shield and the red enamel crest upon his helm with its three roaring heads. The young prince. Gods be good, Is it truly him? Lord Ashur made the same mistake. Prince Valar.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

The black knight lifted the visor of his helm. I did not think to enter the lists at Ashford, my lord. So I brought no armor. My son was good enough to lend me his is. Prince Balor smiled almost sadly. So again, he doesn't have his own armor. He wasn't planning to fight, but he decided to do this thing and he had to borrow his son's armor in order to do it. I love that mistake in the novella. It makes sense that we didn't get a like Prince Valar here because we haven't spent really enough time understanding who it is. But you can see that it's. Maybe he was the character that was.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was cut be.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's entirely possible Dunk's face Here. Egg's face, Aryan's face, Of course. It's just like an instantly iconic, wonderful moment. And it's so good in the text. I loved getting to see this brought to screen. I got. I got chills watching this. I thought it was fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ira Parker said, you know, in. In sort of a preseason interview, he was asked, I gotta say, these junketeers are doing a great job of like asking. Asking questions and then sprinkling them throughout the season. So, like, in the preseason interview, Ira Parker was asked about this specific moment and he was like, this is my favorite moment of the season. He's like, I've watched it back a million times. Like, getting to use the theme in an unironic way here is just like, it's fantastic. Light of my life.

[Mallory Rubin]

I already liked the episode one theme music Cut to diarrhea. As we talked about on those pods, I thought it was very clever, but the way that your heart just surges then when you get the full, pure, true, earnest right version of it here, and it feels so earned, just incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's so good. And like, I. I really do wish that that House of the Dragon had come up with its own theme song. I just like, I love this use of it. It matters that it's infrequent. And so then when it kicks in, we're like, oh, my God, here we go. You know, totally.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maekar is not as thrilled as the rest of us are. We're all like, this is one of the all time iconic moments. Mika, we're going to be talking about Balor along with Oberyn. I will be your champion for the rest of our lives. Mika, not so. He's like, have you taken leave of your senses? His armor is also sick. By the way, the man attacked my son. To which Baylor replies, this man protected the innocent. As every true knight must let the gods decide if he was right or wrong. So again, that question. What makes a knight a knight?

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is right? Right. What is wrong? Why do we do the things we do? We've talked all pod about why Baylor made this decision, but on the Oberyn comp front, that, like, I will be your champion moment. But also, like, what about what? I want justice for my sister and her children. If you want justice, you've come to the wrong place. Tyrion says, I disagree. I've come to the perfect place. I want to bring those who have wronged me to justice. And all those who have wronged me are here. That's not what Baylor's doing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Baylor's not going to be caught monologuing. That's not what he's doing here. That's not what's going to happen. Happened to him. And this is. This man. Protected the innocent is another place where our listener Taylor pointed out that, like, instead of defended the weak, it's protected.

[Mallory Rubin]

The innocent, which is. I love it. I love that he's really like earning the lifelong Arlen hype since the. The joust back in the day. You know, Sir Arlen often told me we heard Dunk say earlier in the season that you were the soul of chivalry and that one day the Seven Kingdoms will be safe in your hands. And all of those things we talked about earlier today, like the practicality, the responsibility, the burden of being next in line for the throne. There's also the aspect of this decision of, like, what kind of realm do you want to lead? What do you want your kingdom to look like? And the choice that he's making here is a part of that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know Birdie's already your fave, but I can't.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just think he's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I read you this quote that he gave about this moment and about leadership?

[Mallory Rubin]

I would love you to.

[Joanna Robinson]

He said, I think there must be a deep thirst in most of us to realize that there is a space in a cynical world for heroes and for people who choose to do the right thing. And what an important time to tell stories about leaders who choose righteousness over self interest. But it's not a given. And I think what makes it exciting on a simple level is you don't know before until after. And that's what he says. You don't know before until after. As my granny used to say. And I love that phrase, you don't know before until after. As my granny used to say, he's not a good man. There's no such thing. I don't think goodness is as goodness does. Was. We'll find out in each moment how we'll behave in the next. God, this choice he makes. It's very much. It's very much. It's going to sound like Tolkien, but actually it's kind of Hemingway. There's good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for. Right? That's not a Tolkien line. That's a Peter Jackson line. Crib from Hemingway. But there's good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for. Is like when you see Bailor Breakspear, when you see Raymond Fosseway, when you see Dunk make these choices. And that's why this story is so. Again, this is still George R.R. martin's brutal world. You know what I mean? But it's just like these choices that these characters make to do what is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right, it allows you to believe that other people in your life could do things like this and also that you could find the strength to do a thing like this. It's like really like a balm for the soul. I just think it's great. And now of all times, we need it. So, so good.

[Joanna Robinson]

We have a couple more listener emails. I just want to hit really quickly before we get to the spoiler session. Our listener, Anna Grace, said this thing that I really love, the way she put it. We talked a little bit previously about the way people look at Duncan when he's not looking at them. Plummer, Steely Pate, Red, et cetera, et cetera. Anna wrote something about Sir Dunc the Lunk reminds people of who they want to be. The way it's coming across in the TV version for me anyway, is that we're not getting Baylor the legend come to save the day. We're getting a perhaps more human Baelor learning from a hedge knight and putting that lesson into practice. Show. Baylor might already be a good enough guy, but there's something about Dunk that inspires greatness. This idea of, like, this is the end of her email, but, like, this idea that, like, who does Steely Pate want to be? He wants to be a guy who gives a knight a shield and armor away for a copper because of someone who did the right thing. Who does Red want to be? Maybe like a woman who offers more kindness than she did Derision a little bit earlier. You know what I mean? Like, who does Egg want to be?

[Mallory Rubin]

Who does Raymond want to be? Does someone want to be?

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, it's just like, yeah, it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

So great to think too about. And we get this obviously on the printed page, but one of the things that the adaptations can really cement for us is the way that those ripples play across time. And we have the full picture here of the influence that Dunk has had on all of these people. The history books in this moment will be like what Baylor Breakspear came in and did. And I will say, like, I got, like we said at the beginning of the pod, just, you know, anecdotally hearing from more people about this episode. First word of almost every text was Baylor. Exclamation point. Right? This is like, this is one of those moments that people are going to Talk about forever. But the way that the show slightly, as we've already talked about, slightly tweak things so that the influence that Dunk had on that and these things are all informing each other. It's just the best.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's. That's what, at its best, Fire and Blood and House of the Dragon does is just sort of like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's the story you. You didn't read in the history book. Here's what happened in the room behind closed door when Aegon, even Aegon was sent out. So the only people who were there. Right, Right. Were Balor and Duncan, and only they know what happened there, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

A listener, Cody wrote in, say, regarding Raymond.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are we worried that he's not wearing any armor? I mean, so Steely Pate puts the armor on Duncan in. In, I guess, a cutscene or whatever, but he's also there kind of squiring for Raymond.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

He didn't have an extra, but a chain mail to throw on Raymond.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean, we haven't seen the actual contest yet. My expectation would be Baylor rides off and Dunk rides off. They're not going to instantaneously fight. They should have a moment before the actual contest begins where I would expect somebody to put some plate on Raymond Foss.

[Joanna Robinson]

Elisa Hellman Foss. Way, dear boy. Okay. And then Kev says, I. I'm assuming this person's Kev based on their email. They didn't sign it. Okay. I'm confused on how the Kingsguard would continue the trial of Seven with Baylor joining dunkside. Wouldn't they be breaking some kind of bow vow, battling against the heir? So my answer to that is that's actually kind of the point. And we may or may not hear about that, but, like, no, the Kingsguard cannot touch B or Breakspear. So all of a sudden, Aryan side is a little neutralized by the fact that there's three people on his team Cannot touch part of Dunk's team. Tables are turning. We'll see what happens.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm very excited.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very sad there are only two episodes left. But very, very excited. Book spoiler time. If you don't want to hear about things that are going to happen either presumably in the next couple weeks in future seasons or way later in the canon, it's your time to bounce. Carlos, put a spooky sound effect here so that people know it's time to leave.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you go? Are you gone? Are you gone?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Book spoilers.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I rapid fire some Emails really quickly. Nicole says, I just started book two of Duncan Egg and I can't believe Sweet foot is not with them and gets no mention. Please tell me the show will correct this grave error. I doubt it.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll find out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

But we are going to get a donkey next season, so that's something.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is a category I'm calling is insert literally anyone actually. Blood raven. That's amazing. 1. So Bloodraven, who is not in this book because I believe George R.R. martin had not thought of him yet, but does have roles play in the future, does often show up in disguise. So you are well within your rights to ask, is that Robin sitting in the tree watching Dunk? Poop Robin.

[Mallory Rubin]

Poop Robin. Bloodraven use his proper name, Poop Robin.

[Joanna Robinson]

But our listener Garrett pointed out that the birthmark on the face of the fortune teller in episode three really made him wonder if that could be Bloodraven.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Blood Raven being a member of the royal family who very ambitious, very moving pieces behind the scenes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And certainly associated with vision and prophecy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's what Garrett said. Who benefits more than Blood Raven from the death of Balor? Blood Raven is the next hand and he holds a position for a year. Aryan, who's unpredictable and actually insane, is exiled and thus removed from the politics of Westeros. My question asked is, did Blood Raven have anything to do with this? In a future story, we see him glamorous, different person, and the saying, how many eyes does a Lord Blood Raven have? Do y' all think the Fortune Teller is a soft launch for Blood Raven in the series, or am I off my rocker? I think you should always ask yourself, was Blood Raven actually involved in what was going on here?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's fun. Why not? I don't think that was Blood Raven, but I like it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Could be.

[Joanna Robinson]

It would make a little bit more sense to me that it's played by the same actress in the in the inn. If Bloodraven's like, that's the lady's shape that I could take. You know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

The glimpse of Bloodraven that we got in Hot D is very visiony, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

So. Yeah. But when Ryan was like, that has nothing to do with how Bloodraven will actually show up, I was like, then why? Why do it? That was so weird. Why show Blood Raven if you haven't cast Blood Raven and it's just gonna be a different person then.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, especially the show was already in development, so knowing that at the absolute latest, we'd be getting Mystery Night Season 3, Blood Raven. Absolute latest.

[Joanna Robinson]

I bet we'll see. I bet we'll see Blood Raven in season two. Somehow I bet it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, I think it's. It's very likely given the heavy blackfire, the dagger emphasis.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think we floated this, but.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, we did.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, just to. We've just gotten a bunch of emails lately from people being like, like especially in. In the wake of the prophecy and thinking about the line and the prophecy of all who know you will rejoice in your death. And so thinking then about an Aegon, a King Aegon who is even darker than we already were led to believe because King Aegon the unlikely is responsible for the tragedy of Summerhall. That's just a fact. But the nature of everything leading up to that is much more of a mystery. And so, so putting in this show all Rejoice had us wondering last week. How. How far off the path has Aegon gone in pursuit of this? And how influential could knowing the prophecy of the dagger and having the dagger be on all of that?

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel like there's no. I mean there's just no question given the.

[Joanna Robinson]

I guess it just depends on like whether or not how much George, who is now pissed at Ryan, wants to like link what they've seeded in Hot D into his current baby in the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Seven Kingdom because he's like, I told them to do this and I'm gonna like reclaim that in a way that I can control. But so like in the mystery night, this is obviously connected to Daeron, but also to the idea of prophecy, as is the case with like the Rhaegar scrolls quote. There are plenty of examples where now we come across them in the canon and we're like, oh, probably that was the dagger. So from the mystery knight, this is a. And gives us an insight into the stock that he's putting into the dragon dreams already as a very young boy. Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daerons dreamed of it and King Aerys read it in a prophecy on a knife. Maybe it will be my upper hatches. That would be splendid. So King Aerys read it in a prophecy that's like, gotta be this.

[Joanna Robinson]

It could be, but like Rhaegar didn't read it off a dagger.

[Mallory Rubin]

As you have noted many times, George is constantly tweaking and updating. Who knows what that scroll was?

[Joanna Robinson]

Who knows what if a scroll is also a dagger? When is a scroll not a dragger?

[Mallory Rubin]

Why not? It's got. It's got words printed on it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so Justin. Justin said possibly the Prophecy dies with him at Summerhall. Like, is that where we lose custody, the chain of. Of custody? I don't think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Rhaegar. I think Rhaegar had it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or he had a scroll which was a dagger, which was also a dagger.

[Mallory Rubin]

What a story. What a story. That's it for Dagger on the Summerhall front. Since we're there, let's hit the very notable tweak in Darren's dream. This is more Summerhall stuff. So they added the line for the show and the laying the track to Summerhall really continues here. Frankly, at this point it's going to be weird if they don't do 13 seasons and get us to Summerhall, given the amount of summer all forecasting we've gotten.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I've seen you, sir, and. And fire is added. So the prophecy is about Baelor dying, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean, probably, yes. I mean, I think it's. I think as you've noted many times, like any dragon dream or prophecy can be applied to many different things.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, no. I'm just saying. But certainly previously we interpreted that this dream was just about Balor dying and Dunk surviving the Trial of the Seven.

[Mallory Rubin]

And certainly that will still be.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which is going to be a huge hot bummer for everyone who's like super excited about Balor this week.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know it's going to be a real all time. It's like, oh boy.

[Joanna Robinson]

But. And fire was added because we're just sort of like, you know, egg being like, did you use pollen to make that fire? Love the fire bit. You know, we're just like. We're just putting fire where we may.

[Mallory Rubin]

So do you take it as okay? It's like all of these things. It still applies to Baelor and Dunk. Surely there will be like a torch, a little bit of like daemon white walls, dragon prophecy stuff there as well for Novella 3, Season 3. And then obviously Summerhall I think it is.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's Summerhall. I think it's. Anything that happens to House Targaryen that like Dunk has his hand and foot in is going to be related to that. There's a funeral pyre, Right. We've seen it in promo photos. There's going to be a Baelor funeral pyre. So there will be literally a fire. So if people want to be like, well, that was the prophecy for sure. They can. And then people who know about Summerhall are like, there's more fire to come. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But like also, why not both?

[Joanna Robinson]

Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Why not all of the above? I like that, you know, the other targs. I mean, obviously, we've talked about the Aemon line to Sam many times. You know, my brothers dreamed of dragons, too, and their dreams killed them, every one. Obviously. As the passage is, Dread Egg becomes obsessed with this. But Mystery night, when Dunk and Damon ii, Jon the Fiddler spoiler, he's like, he just gets another, I dreamed of you. This is just a thing for Dunk to that point, about all the different moments along the way. This is very much like white. You were in white, head to heel, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We'll talk about that more as we get closer to that season. But the Targaryens are dreaming of Duncan and his role in history.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Pretty regularly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Pretty regularly as they go. I always like the foot. I like that we got the call out of. And you kicked him, too, right? And Dunk's like, yeah, given, as you noted, the way that the foot kind of hangs over. Especially after what happens to Balor. Sometimes I sit under that tree and I look at my feet and I ask, if I couldn't have spared one, how could my foot be worth a prince's life? Standing firm on my corner still that he's gonna punt Rhaegar right out of. Punt on like a football right out.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of Summer Hole like a little baby football. Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Why not?

[Joanna Robinson]

Since we're talking about the mystery night, can I read this passage that someone sent us about the idea of Dunk as the stranger? This listener signed their email Lady Olena.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I'll give it to them. Oh, wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nice. From the mystery night quote. Black Tom stumbled backwards, yet somehow kept his balance. Dunk bowled right after him, smashing him with the shield again and again, using his size and strength to knock Heddle halfway across the sept. And he swung the shield aside and slashed out with his longsword. And Heddle screamed as the steel bit through wool and muscle deep into his thigh. His own sword swung wildly, but the blow was desperate and clumsy. Dunk let his shield take it one more time and put all his weight into his answer. Black Tom reeled back a step and stared down in horror at his forearm flopping on the floor beneath the stranger's altar. You. He gasped. You. You. I told you. Dunk stabbed him through the throat. I'm better with a sword.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I think that from the moment of Balor's death onward, Dunk will think constantly about the death that he leaves.

[Joanna Robinson]

In his way and the death that he brings wherever he goes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. On that front, Dunk as like kind of the trial by combater. Worth noting here in the spoiler section, every novella features trial by combat, frankly, in a way that I like, think might feel a little weird at some point, but the fact that other characters are involved is maybe fine. Obviously, in season two, Sworn Sword, we're going to get Dunk versus Lucas Long Inch at Standfast, and then Daemon versus Glendon at White Walls. And then of course, as we've already talked about a few times from this isn't one of the novellas yet, but from World of Ice and Fire Cannon, we know that Lionel and Dunk have a fabled trial by combat in the far future because Lionel's like, you're fucking kids and off and broke a betrothal and now I'm gonna rise up against you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lionel talking about wanting to bloody up the Kingsguard in their pretty white dresses. He and he and his boyfriend Dunk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will well, how's that gonna go for Lionel?

[Joanna Robinson]

Not well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not well. Not well on the not gonna go well front. I mean, man deceptants say we must love our brothers from Baylor. Right before his brother's about to kill him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Being just like, crammed into that armor.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know when he pulls this, giving us the pulling off of the helm in particular is like, diabolical.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really tough diabolical if you don't know, because I, I, we, we keep forgetting. But like, people listen to spoiler section without knowing. But like sickos Makar will stove his brother's head in from behind by accident.

[Mallory Rubin]

As he's gonna, he's gonna tell you he didn't mean to.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, you know, there's a question of, like, would the helmet have, like, protected him if he was wearing a helm that was actually fit for him and not his son's helm? But they'll pull the helm off and basically his brain falls off. If you're wondering what the gross, goopy thing that's gonna happen next week's episode is, I believe it's Baelor's brain falling out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Someone might shit in their pants during the Trial of Seven, too. It's entirely possible. I mean, your guy Feast does die by groin station episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

You better get him alive before they kill him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I'm sure he's coming. Yeah, Be patient. You're gonna get it eventually. He's not gonna get to say a word. It's so sad. I wonder if they'll even mention that he died. Oh, boy, bees.

[Joanna Robinson]

You seem so delighted.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, no, I.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what?

[Mallory Rubin]

I love be.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love the bees. You just Tried to hurt me with beesberry. I'm gonna hurt you now. I'm gonna hurt you now. Appleworse apple worse force. Raymond Fosseway claims the green apple. Raymond Fossil belongs to me and not you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everybody makes mistakes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not you. Everybody makes mistakes, including Raymond. What I do like is that Raymond Fosseway is like, oh, sorry, I was just repainting my shield. And I'm hoping that we're not gonna get him fucking up to repaint his shield.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's gotta, at this point, based on the pace of the show, he simply has to wait until after nuts.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Fossway House splits and there's the Red Apples and the Green Apple Fossil ways. And Raymond Fossil is the founder of the Green Apple Fossilways. And so I think you have to acknowledge that he belongs to me and not you. You can't have every.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm allowed to like him as a character.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can't have every single red Apple that exists on the planet. I've got one sour green apple.

[Mallory Rubin]

I want every red Apple I want.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I get Raymond Foss.

[Mallory Rubin]

Honey crisp pink leaf.

[Joanna Robinson]

I get Raymond Foss away, and you can have Stefan Foss away and all of the other Red Apple fossil. But you don't get Raymond Fossil away. You know, you don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm allowed to like him as a character.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're not allowed to claim him in any way whatsoever. You can't say our shared fave, Raymond Fossil way.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like saying I like. I was about to say, this is like saying that because I wear a lot of orange for Syracuse and McLaren and of course the Orioles, I have to like the Ashford Sigil. And then I remembered that. I literally said that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yep.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mine. Tough. Let's see what else. Quickly, to wrap here. How many Aegons have been king? Four. Well, there's going to be a fifth, and it's going to be this one. Aegon the Fifth. The unlikely Five Aegons. I hope he says that when the Great Council chooses him. That's his coronation. Five Aegons.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, man.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incitement to revolt. Now, listen, we are mere years away from the next Blackfyre Rebellion. We are mere years just observing it. It's canon.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's just saying Arian had some points. She and Chris Ryan both are Team Arryon. That side of the table never cursed.

[Mallory Rubin]

On the Fosseway front, this is not a Night of the Seven Kingsom spoiler, but it is potentially. This is what we were alluding to earlier, a House of the Dragon spoiler. Because Tumbleton. That's where. I mean, the fossil waves are mixed up with. That's gotta be what cost him the orchestra.

[Joanna Robinson]

We don't know. Right. We don't know. But it could be. And if feel like it must, if Ryan Connell wants to give us more pieces of from the Red Apple Foss branch of the family tree for you to love and admire, then who says no, he can go for it. I would love to have a Foss way.

[Mallory Rubin]

That'd be great. What else here. For not knowing my place. I guess in general, just with. With Balor. The fact that he suggests like a version of the thing that gets him killed is just, you know, boy, so Georgian for not knowing my place. I like that idea. As kind of a primer for the. We did did lament that when Dunk finds his elm earlier, there's like some flies, but we don't get a real. Oh, a dragonfly. Thus I think diminishing the likelihood of getting a dragons or dragonflies contemplative moment at the end. But you know, for us as, as readers, obviously, this transition to, okay, well, I thought I wanted this thing and sure, in some ways I still do certain parts of it. But Aryan Darren, look at what that royal life in that fancy house house led to. Like, maybe my place is actually the better place. And so if Egg is going to come with me, it's going to be as a hedge knight squire on a donkey. And we're going to go to Dorne because I want to try to find Tansel because she's not too tall for kissing for puppets. And kissing for puppets. So you. I had put this in the spoiler section, but the, the Kingsguard gambit, like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Baylor, I don't think that needs to be in the spoiler section because that's just the rules. I'm just saying that's the rules of this, I guess.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it doesn't. I had put it here just because it does.

[Joanna Robinson]

I assume he'll like explicitly say it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Explicitly say it in the next episode, as he does in the book. But yeah, this is a. It's an interesting. Like, I think connected to what you were saying earlier. It's a moment where you're like, right, you're thinking through the tactics, you're thinking through all aspects of this. And so we'll obviously talk about that part of his character more next time week. Dragon in human form. Obviously this guy's going to drink wildfire and die. I'd say you hate to see it, but with Aran, you don't. And that's it. That's it. We did it. I can't wait for episode five. I'm really sad the season's almost over, but I look forward to covering the Big Pen ultimate and then the coda with you with cr. We will be back for Talk of the Thrones after episode five on Sunday. Thank you to Carlos Chiraboga, Arjuna Ramga Powell, Jomia Deneron and Jacob Cornette, who is here with us today.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great mustache. Do you think Jacob would dye his mustache with some. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you think of Humphrey Biesbury, Jacob, do you have an opinion? Let us know. Let us know. Drop it in the comments. We will see you guys on Sunday. We will see everyone on Sunday night for Talk to the Thrones on episode five. We will be back before then though, for Best of the century so far.

[Joanna Robinson]

V Day special here in the spoiler section. Why did I wait till now? I don't know, but let's just say so like, what were some of the categories that you threw out at me? It was just sort of like steamiest on screen moment, Best yearning.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. Favorite couple we actually got. That's what the fanfic is for. The ship we never got, but that you still ride for surprising pairing you end up caring about Most anguish inducing declaration of love, hottest sex scene sex scene that made you a romantasy fan or the romantasy sex scene you're most excited to see adapted as a book category because we'll mostly do TV and film. Something about a musical accompanying argument during a sex scene. Something about I have questions about the physics you just went down or just description of love.

[Joanna Robinson]

A sex spiral.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, well, I mean, what else is new?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. So if you have any thoughts about that. Hobbitsanddragons gmail.com any of those categories and we'll see.

[Mallory Rubin]

They might all change.

[Joanna Robinson]

They might all change. But you can email us and the white boys will be back. We'll see you soon. Bye. It.