‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 8 Deep Dive. Plus: Timothy Olyphant!

Summary

House of R: ‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 8 Deep Dive. Plus: Timothy Olyphant!

Podcast: House of R, The Ringer
Hosts: Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin, Rob Mahoney
Date: September 24, 2025

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Overview

This episode of House of R features a thorough, lively deep dive into the finale of Alien: Earth (Episode 8: "The Real Monsters"). Mallory, Joanna, and Rob examine major character arcs, narrative themes, franchise connections, and high-octane moments from the show’s closing hour. The conversation is peppered with meta-commentary on canon, Peter Pan mythology, and parallels to classic TV, along with the hosts' trademark humor. The latter half presents a delightful, chaotic, and thoughtful interview with Timothy Olyphant (Kirsch), who reflects on his role and some of the episode’s most memorable moments.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Finale Dissection: Analysis of how "The Real Monsters" wraps up season-long questions of identity, morality, and agency for the show's hybrids, humans, and synthetics.
• Meta-Mythology: Parallels drawn to Station Eleven, The Last of Us, and the Peter Pan myth, focusing on who the "real monsters" are.
• Canon & Franchise Discourse: Exploration of Alien: Earth’s relationship to broader Alien continuity—how its “branching reality” status influences narrative stakes.
• Character Progression: Evaluations of character fates, motivations, and uneven narrative focus.
• Interview with Timothy Olyphant: An engaging chat covering Kirsch’s fate, acting approach, milking scenes (“the stuff”), and Oliphant’s relationships with coworkers—plus delightful asides into Star Wars and Justified.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Vibes, Housekeeping, & Canon Discourse

• Opening Banter: Milk jokes and spoilers start right out the gate ("Was that under a minute to the first milk reference?" – Joanna [01:23]), setting a playful, spoiler-filled tone.
• Housekeeping: Preview of upcoming content (Chris Nolan fall; Buffy S2; Dunk & Egg mailbag; Slow Horses returns).
• Canon Musings:
  • Rob ponders the hybrids’ absence from the Alien film universe, raising questions about their ultimate fate: “Are we watching the slow crawl of the Titanic toward the iceberg…?” [17:32]
  • Mallory points out Noah Hawley’s apparent “have your cake and eat it too” approach to canon, as the show sits nebulously near Alien ‘77 but diverges in major ways [18:20].

The Finale’s Central Morality & “Who Are The Monsters?”

• “To the monsters, we’re the monsters.” ([08:22])
• The hosts draw parallels to Station Eleven and The Last of Us, spotlighting how narrative perspective can frame monsters and victims interchangeably.
• Mallory: “I think pretty much everybody is monstrous in some way at the end of this season...honestly the Xenomorph is one of the best behaved characters.” [10:08]
• Discussion of Joe and Arthur as comparatively pure but ineffectual—while others embrace power, sometimes becoming new versions of their oppressors.

Character Outcomes, Narrative Balance & Critique

Who Survives and Why?

• Surprise at just how many characters (Arthur, Kirsch, Boy Cavalier, Morrow) make it out alive—unusual for the Alien franchise.
• Mallory: “[I’m] kind of floored that Boy Cavalier is still alive...[but] delighted, because it’s a performance we’ve had such fun with." [27:22]
• Questioning the narrative function of keeping certain characters (like Adam, Curly) around, despite weak development or payoff.

The Kids’ Power and Agency

• The “children as monsters” metaphor is literalized—emphasizing the dangers of untempered power and unresolved trauma.
• Rob: “There is something about a child thinking that power is the solution to complexity that is...terrifying to me.” [101:07]

Thematic Parallels and Meta Moments

• Recurring Peter Pan coding—the hybrids as Lost Boys, Boy Cavalier as a perverse Pan (“Whatever I am cannot be explained in an old book.” – Wendy [89:16]).
• Multiple comparisons to past iconic TV moments: Game of Thrones Cleganebowl, Stranger Things, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Mad Max: Fury Road.

Monster as Pet: Has the Xenomorph Lost Its Scare Factor?

• Rob: “It does take a little bit of the juice out. I mean, look, the merch is right there...It was honestly kind of adorable, but...it’s hard not to demystify something like a xenomorph and come out the other side feeling as scared by it.” [33:04]
• Debate over turning the xenomorph into a “pet” echoes Jurassic World (Blue the Raptor)/Daenerys and her dragons.

Standout Scenes & Set Pieces

• Hide and Seek Horror: The children use their childhood games to mete out vengeance and justice—haunted house sequences and elevator sabotage.
• The John Henry (Kirsch vs. Morrow) Face-Off: Hosts loved the mythic resonance but wanted more depth and build-up; Olyphant and Sisse praised.
• Eye Jockey Antics: The hybrid sheep’s end, Arthur’s “zombified” plot thread, and across-the-board love for the season’s creepiest prop.

Music, Mood, and “Arena Rock”

• Pearl Jam’s “Animal” closes the finale, capping a season of bold 90s/2000s needle drops (Black Sabbath, Jane’s Addiction, Godsmack, Smashing Pumpkins).
• Mallory: “All of the closing needle drops were good, but I did really like the Mob Rules, Black Sabbath at the beginning...They’ve all been pretty good.” [112:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“It was the interview of a lifetime. Let's just say it.”
— Mallory Rubin [02:46], on chatting with Timothy Olyphant

“This is the Alien Earth finale podcast...But also, perhaps more importantly, we have very special guests on this podcast today. Timothy Oliphant—Kirsch himself, the milky man himself, has joined us…”
— Joanna Robinson [01:36]

“I think pretty much everybody is monstrous in some way at the end of this season. There are a couple exceptions, but pretty few. You know, honestly, the Xenomorph is one of the best behaved characters.”
— Mallory Rubin [10:08]

“There is something about a child thinking that power is the solution to complexity that is...terrifying to me.”
— Rob Mahoney [101:07]

“Honestly, by the grace of Ice Age, [Joe] is grandfathered in to their little crew.”
— Rob Mahoney [66:53]

“We brought our xenomorph-centric expectations, but the promise of the show was there on that...triple race: Cyborgs, synths, and hybrids…”
— Mallory Rubin [116:12], on what she’s looking forward to in Season 2

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Timothy Olyphant Interview Highlights

“Is Kirsch okay?” ([120:19])

• Olyphant, puckishly evasive, says they’ve inquired about his S2 availability—a “positive outlook.”
• His “dream” for a significant pay raise (and new hairdo for Kirsch) if he returns.

On “the stuff” (synthetic milk) ([124:11–125:42])

• “Here’s my recollection of ‘the stuff’—I think it’s the technical term...Not enjoyable. Sticky. Not as bad as it used to be. A little sugary. Doesn't taste bad. But it goes up the nose when you're upside down, and that’s...the sacrifice I'm willing to make for good, solid entertainment.”
• “When we made the choice to be upside down...I was like, ‘This plays.’” [125:09]

Working with Babu Sisse (Morrow) ([127:27])

• “Every day I got to work with Babu, no disrespect to the rest of the cast...He was particularly lovely and thrilling to work with. I can’t say enough about that man’s work—and the man in general.”

On Kirsch’s Characterization ([131:55–135:33])

• Olyphant emphasizes responding to the moment rather than intellectualizing—“I just don’t know [Kirsch’s motivation]. When I show up as an actor...the audience only knows what you tell them, and they’ll attribute your behavior to whatever.”
• “Fun to play a non-human character with so much room to explore the emotional life of a non-human.”

Kirsch’s Attitude and Hip Waggle ([139:47])

• “I didn't know that's what I was doing!” (On the sassy Kirsch strut.)
• “I’m in show business. People want some entertainment. As long as I’m not trying to force a square peg through a round hole...I’m guilty of, I’m not unawares.”

On Boy Cavalier & “daddy issues” [143:06–146:56]

• “He’d like to kill his master, but he can't...I've seen enough movies and TV. Most people want to destroy their fathers. So that's the sandbox we're also playing in.”
• “There’s always been daddy issues...that’s the same story, we’re all telling the same stories, right?” (re: parallels between his roles in Alien: Earth, Justified, Deadwood)

On Cobb Vanth’s Return ([147:54–151:05])

• Olyphant, demurring: “Even if I knew, I couldn't say. But I have sent Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni texts...‘Just a reminder that neither me or Cobb Vanth are dead.’”
• Joanna reveals the precise countdown (1,360 days) since last Cobb Vanth appearance; Timothy enthusiastically pledges to text it to the producers.

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Main Spoiler Discussion: [00:40–59:00 and throughout]
• Hybrids, Monsters, & Canon: [09:00–21:19], [61:07–86:00]
• Meta/Franchise & Peter Pan Analysis: [88:05–89:50]
• Kirsch vs. Morrow, “The John Henry Scene”: [75:03–81:23]
• Timothy Olyphant Interview Start: [120:17]
• Milking / “the stuff” Story: [124:11–125:49]
• Kirsch's Character and Acting Process: [127:27–139:21]
• Star Wars/Cobb Vanth Section: [147:32+]

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Terse, Useful Takeaways for the Uninitiated

• The finale reframes traditional monster/human dichotomies, leaving most characters morally compromised—and sets up a “kids-in-charge” season ahead.
• Much-loved characters survive perhaps improbably; the Xenomorph’s transformation from terror to “pet” divides the panel.
• The narrative’s Peter Pan motif is overtly questioned by the hybrids themselves.
• Kirsch (Timothy Olyphant) is a highlight, and Olyphant is as quick, witty, and philosophical as his character in interview—revealing little but charming the podcast team and audience.
• Hopes are high for an Arthur/eye jockey horror subplot and a Kirsch/Morrow “buddy cop” arc in S2.
• Ask Olyphant about “the stuff,” and you’ll get the goods: “sticky, improved, but up the nose...that’s the sacrifice for good entertainment.”
• If you care about Cobb Vanth’s Star Wars return, trust that at least one actor is texting Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni about your pain.

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Concluding Vibe

The House of R’s Alien: Earth sendoff is raucous, nerdy, and probing—a finale celebration, critique, and future tease, capped by a giddy, real-time star interview. For fans who stuck around for the ride, or those considering a binge, this episode is energetic, honest, and as ever, suffused with deep love for TV’s genre possibilities.

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“I’m excited for Season 2...I like this season a lot, and I’m looking forward to being back with these characters and seeing what Noah Hawley has on his mind.”
— Mallory Rubin [115:30]

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

This episode is brought to you by Happy Egg. The recipe for a better egg starts.

[Joanna Robinson]

With how the hen lives.

[Rob Mahoney]

Happy Egg Hens spend their days outside on pasture, running, stretching and flapping their.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wings in the sunshine.

[Mallory Rubin]

That freedom leads to rich, tasty orange yolks and a difference you can see and taste.

[Joanna Robinson]

Happy Egg makes every plate happier.

[Rob Mahoney]

The proof it's inside the shell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Visit happyag.com Spotify to crack open Happy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hello.

[Joanna Robinson]

Welcome back to the Last for now Triple House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That's Mallory Rubin, also with an R. And that's Rob Mahoney, also with an R. And is Rob's last Alien Earth episode with us. Thank you for the journey. Mallory Rubin. How are you doing today?

[Mallory Rubin]

We're all ghosts, you know, sometimes that's how it feels for us for Nibs. So relieved that Nibs is here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, thank goodness. You guys really had me spooked after last week. Yeah, I was terrified that she was going to be butt of milking corpse. And yet she's here, she's living, she's, you know, beating dudes to death all over again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Was that under a minute to the first milk Milk reference?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And like 30 seconds to the first spoiler, even though we hadn't issued our spoiler warning yet. So we're doing great today.

[Rob Mahoney]

I would hope people know what they're listening to.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is the Alien Earth finale podcast, episode 8 spoilers through the entire first season of Alien Earth because it is now aired and we have watched it all. We're going to talk about Alien Earth Finale that is very important for us to talk about. But also, perhaps more importantly, we have very special guests on this podcast today. Timothy Oliphant Kirsch himself, the milky man himself has joined us to talk about all things Alien Earth. A little bit of Deadwood, Justified, Star Wars, Cobb vanthiness in there as well. He I'm definitely. We don't want to do that thing where we like spoiler. Our own interview that's going to come at the end of the podcast, obviously, after our discussion. But he called the, the whatever they used for the milk the stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I haven't been able to stop thinking about that. He just called it the stuff. And I think he was likening, I think he was likening it to, like various fake blood that, you know, he's like, this stuff has really changed over the years. And I think he was sort of likening it to, like fake blood that he's experienced in his life. Anyway.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was the interview of A lifetime. Let's just say it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, you covered a lot of bodily fluids, clearly.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was, it was chaotic in the best possible way. It was incredibly fun. Immediately, as people will hear. This will be the last spoiler. Probably not, but the last spoiler that we intentionally issue for the interview. Immediately he was like, where's the guy who's sometimes with you?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, where's Rob? Where's Rob?

[Rob Mahoney]

Thanks for the invite, guys. You know, thanks. Thanks for looping me in. Thanks for the cc. Very tough. Very tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you're watching on video, please enjoy the attempt over video team to capture the chaos of Timothy Oliphant, sometimes on a bench outside, sometimes walking inside to get his charger. But it's all captured on video. I'm really excited. It's actually really, really fun interview. Please take a in for that elsewhere. You know, if you're listening to this, on Tuesday evening after the finale dropped yesterday, we crashed an emergency pod because there was a Mandalorian Grogu trailer that dropped on Monday. And Mallory and I had to get on, you know, the, the old Zoom chat to talk about that. So we have a trailer breakdown. A very modest, a very light hour long discussion of an hour, a minute and a half of footage. I think just only here at the.

[Mallory Rubin]

House of R could we call an hour long breakdown of a 90 second trailer modest. Genuinely mean it and genuinely mean it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Definitely demure. And we should say the Midnight Boys. Pew. Pew. Their episode this week is a combo of looking at the Mando and Grogu trailer and an Alien Earth finale. A recap. So that will be up, I believe, tomorrow at some time on the horizon for us. We have a couple things coming up. Chris Nolan fall is confirmed. We are doing it. We are continuing our Christopher Nolan adventures. We've got some hype meters coming, some best of the centuries coming. Mallory is over halfway through Buffy season two. So we will have a couple Buffy season two episodes coming for you. Very exciting. Keep your spoilers to yourselves in the comments. Malorie is pure. Keep her pure. Keep her experience pure. Thank you so much.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't you dare. I have to say, Buffy very kind of subtly fall coded show in a lot of its seasons. You know, clearly there's some springtime events, but a lot of Halloween going on, a lot of sweaters. You know, there's just a lot happening. It is Southern California, so it's not a typical fall. This isn't Gilmore Girls is what I'm saying. But we're in the season.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we're always going back to school at Sunnydale High. And the other thing I want to mention this is, this is very important is that we have a Dunkin Egg mailbag coming up. We have a mailbag in general coming up, but Dunkin Egg Night of the Seven Kingdoms is the official name of the show which is premiering HBO next January. This next January, they're going to be in New York Comic Con. They're going to be talking about the show at New York Comic Con. We want to be talking about what they talked about at New York Comic Con. So we want your questions about Duncan Egg, Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, and then anything at all that you want to email us. Molly Rubin. Where can they reach us?

[Mallory Rubin]

Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com Send us your Night of the Seven Kingdoms thoughts. We're going to be doing our Stranger Things season three revisited Potsuit. Send us your thoughts on that. If you, like me, have spent the bulk of your past week looking at the behind the scenes Alien Earth photos of the performer who portrays the xenomorph but was only wearing the costume on the top and was running around wearing Adidas sneakers. Send us your thoughts on that. I thought that was some of the most incredible content I'd seen in a long time. The inbox is always open.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can follow us also on any podcast platform of your choice. You can also watch this on video for all of our reactions to the whatever unhinged thing Mallory and or Rob never me says on on the podcast. I'm always in check. And you can watch us on YouTube. You can watch us on Spotify. Spoiler warning. We already issued through episode eight of Alien Earth.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wait, tell us what you guys have cooking on on Prestige. It's a, it's a, it's a busy stretch for you guys. What do you got coming? Tell us.

[Rob Mahoney]

It really is. I mean, we've got hooked still in process. We've got our ongoing task coverage and most crucially and most timely, Slow Horses is back. We're back at Slough House. We're both, we're back messing up, you know, spy assignments and cases left and right. We're just, we're just blundering about in our coverage of Slow Horses and I couldn't be more happy about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

One of my favorite shows on tv. I can't wait to watch the new season. I can't wait to listen to the pots.

[Joanna Robinson]

Truly we have, I mean, I think we can just say the hooked episode we're doing, the finale is not coming out this week, but it's coming out allegedly next week and Mallory already made fun of us for being coy about it. So I'll just say we're doing the Sopranos. Rob and I are going to watch some episodes of the Sopranos. We've never seen the Sopranos neither.

[Rob Mahoney]

Never even heard of it, to be honest with you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know what it's about. Great. So we're going to watch it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah. We're going to get to the bottom of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm so excited for you both. Truly, this is going to be a game changer, transformative experience in your television viewing lives. This is a huge moment. This is great, I gotta say.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we pre recorded the Prestige episode with Bill about this upcoming episode of Task because we're usually like a week ahead on that show. So we already told Bill that we were doing this. And I gotta say, I think Bill was like a little disappointed that he wouldn't have this bit anymore to share with us. Right.

[Rob Mahoney]

He was like taking away his favorite toy.

[Joanna Robinson]

What will I. What will I make fun of you for now? Okay, Anything else before we get to the opening snapshot? No. Sounds like nope. All right, let's do our opening snapshot. All right. Episode eight is titled the Real Monsters, directed by Dana Gonzalez, written by Noah Hawley and Magizi Pensino. And the Real Monsters, of course, makes me think of one of Our favorite station 11 quotes that we talk about all the time. To the Monsters Were the Monsters Mali? Were you thinking about that or do you have any other thoughts on the title of this episode?

[Mallory Rubin]

It was a. A two way tie for me between to the Monsters Were the Monsters and a show that we talk about in conversation with Station 11. A lot of the Last of Us. Very like the people. Who am I going to tell you to watch out for? The people coded as well. So those were top of mind for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, any title thoughts you want to share?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, clearly, as usual, a lot of places you could go as far as who the real monsters are. A lot of real monsters to be had in Alien Earth. As it turns out, I find myself very compelled and energized by the idea that the real monsters may be in fact the hybrids. And this kind of almost sort of point of view inversion of spending so much time with them endears us to those characters. They're obviously children. We're so like locked in on their stories. And yet in a Last of Us kind of way, or in a Station 11 kind of way, the camera turns about, you just tilt your point of view on the show, just so. And all of a sudden it's a fucking horror movie. Or at least like a smart home version of a horror movie in which robots are controlling the entry and access and communication of everything going on in this building. In a way that honestly terrifies me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I. I think we'll obviously hit this a lot, scene by scene as we go, but many of the decisions that Wendy or the other hybrids made and the things that they said were simultaneously like, yes, take control, assert your power, insist on and then exhibit the agency that you rightfully possess. And also you are now saying and doing the thing that the evil people did to you. Yep, immediately. So I think pretty much everybody is monstrous in some way at the end of this season. There are a couple exceptions, but pretty few. You know, honestly, the Xenomorph is one of the best behaved characters. It's all wound up with the story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very polite. Very, very polite. Would you say, Does Joe have his hands clean in all of this? Does he come out the other side of this as sort of the most morally pure? He makes this decision at the end of the last week's episode, but inside of this episode he seems very much like this cautionary, I'll save who I can. And the only perhaps tempering force standing just behind the crowd of powerful children here at the end of the finale. What do you think, Mel?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think Arthur, obviously pretty pure. Even Arthur had some notes for across the season, but pretty pure. And I think Joe is on a relative scale, behaving with good intentions in mind. And certainly as his goal and his ambition is to help people and to behave well, not to harm people. I think even Joe, though, was put inside of this finale in a little bit of a. I'm going to call you out on your bullshit and make you think about what moral righteousness really looks like and means. You know, the. Don't say it's complicated. That's what powerless people say to. To make doing nothing okay. That immediately shifts into an empowering moment for. For Wendy, I'm not powerless. But for Joe, it's like actually like equivocating between all of these different groups that you have some sort of affection for, a loyalty to and not being willing to make a stand, saying like, I tried. I would have been there doing some saying like, they were hurting my friends.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

At the end of the day, you're probably going to have to come down more firmly in one position or another inside of this universe. So I think very few characters were let off the Hook completely for some of the choices that they made, or at least it's like, muddied. Some of the characters who I think were operating throughout the season in that more gray in a way that was enticing to us position. Morrow may be the best example of that, I think actually shifted more firmly into like. I think it's hard for us to keep saying, oh, you're doing evil, villainous things, like turning a child into your soldier by threatening to kill his family. But actually, like, when you're in opposition to a character like Boy Cavalier, we are rooting for you. You are the hero. When you get into, like, go save the kids before I burn them alive, it's just hard to find that balance, I think. So everybody slid down.

[Joanna Robinson]

You weren't sharing for that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think you make a really good point about this idea of, like, it's easy to claim your hands are clean when you're just fence sitting the whole time, you know, and trying to stay above the fray entirely. When, like, in this kind of conflict, at the end of the day, you have to make a choice at one point, and he does make a choice at the end of episode seven. But then in episode eight is sort of back into this, like, mostly just trying to keep all of his eyes in his head, you know, through the length of the episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Reasonable. I do think, though, I mean, the two characters that we just singled out in terms of Joe and Arthur, like two of the most ineffectual people in this space, even as they are, I wouldn't say either of them are monstrous by any definition. Whereas the other characters, you could make an argument almost to the person that they are. But those two, they are hemming and hawing. They are fence sitting. Sometimes they are trying to be righteous and live by a kind of code in their way, or at least like an ethical code. And yet they get absolutely nothing done and are constantly roadblocked and are bumping up against all of these people who have, if not firmer resolve, at least kind of like looser boundaries on how far they're willing to go.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because we brought up Arthur, I just. I have to be impatient and say I made a loud cheer in my own home by myself watching this episode when our favorite character, the eye jockey, made her new home inside of David Brysdal, one of our favorite performers. And the contemplating the opportunity that presents for season two of a sort of zombified weekend at Bernie's Ified, you know, evil, smart David Risdal in the face of our soft, sweet Arthur is just so delicious to me. I like, can't. There's. We'll talk about some of the things to think about for season two. There's plenty of ways in which this sets up a second season, but, you know, Yutani's flying in. Like, a bunch of stuff is happening, but I'm like, all I care about is I jockey and Arthur and what.

[Rob Mahoney]

That'S gonna look like.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm so excited.

[Mallory Rubin]

Rob was inspired.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh. And we've just been talking about the eyeball jockey and Boy Cavalier and kind of like their conversation. Or is the eyeball jockey gonna worm its way into his head? Sometimes the best pairings in TV are the ones you don't expect. You know, the ones you didn't even see as being on the board. And eyeball jockey and Arthur, it's a. It really is a beautiful thing, and it's one that I never would have anticipated. And now that I have it, I don't even know what to do with myself.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm. I'm even gonna, like, go back in time and apologize to the sort of, like, Weylon Yutani soldiers for dumping Arthur's body in the water. Because had they not dumped his body in the water like that, perhaps he would not have washed out to the beach the way that he did. And then perhaps he would not have been in the perfect place to get eye jockeyed. And that. I mean, that's a gift for all of us. Thank you. We've already sort of talked some broad strokes. I've talked to Mallory about this a bit Robby before our interview with Tim, but I haven't gotten to check in with you. What did you think of the finale? How did it feel for you?

[Rob Mahoney]

I really liked it. To me, it was the kind of finale that sort of clarifies the show you've been watching the whole time. Like, it just kind of shifts right under your feet in a way that to me feels really energizing about the direction that the show could go. And I think the idea of taking season one in totality as the season where the kids kind of wrest control of the daycare, so to speak, the trillion dollar daycare, as kind of the manifestation of this proxy war for the future of humanity, basically. Right. And I think having all of that is really cool and invites a lot of interesting ideas that they've been kicking around all season. I'm sure will be more to come in a potential season two. But also it kind of zooms me out knowing that these hybrids don't appear in any of the other alien projects, obviously, because they didn't exist yet. And it makes me think, like, are we seeing now that the hybrids are in control and understanding what they're capable of? Are we watching the slow crawl of the Titanic toward the iceberg and the hybrids will get annihilated by something or another, which is why they wouldn't appear in any of the other stuff? Or are we seeing the beginning of their, like, Dr. Manhattan arc and they're gonna buzz the fuck off because they're tired of us humans and our petty little squabbles in our little lives?

[Joanna Robinson]

How much does. Does our previous season conversation about what counts as canon and what doesn't impact your perspective on that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think it factors in for sure. I mean, it clearly is a. Take a bit of piece of this, take a bit of a piece of that, we're gonna kind of forget it. This. These other entries even existed. All that I think is fair and good. But at the end of this show, whenever that is, you still need some explanation for why Prodigy is not a thing in any of these other entities. Why these hybrids are not a thing in any of these other entities. I think you need some acknowledgment of that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll be interested to. I don't know if Noah Hawley agrees with you.

[Rob Mahoney]

He might not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or if he's just like, I've created my own branching reality. I don't know the answer to that. But I wonder that Mallory.

[Rob Mahoney]

That would be very boy cavalier of him to feel that way. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

In a student. Interesting observation. Yeah. I think this is like the have your cake and eat it too downside of the canon fluidity. Like in a universe where there are different versions of canon. Like something like you guys invoked Star wars as a. As a different sort of example of where this kind of thing can happen. But like, I think that in the conversation a couple weeks ago, I think that something like Legends, where creators who are making canon in the new canon era can't wait to pull something out of Legends and officially canonize it, is one thing when you watch Star Wars Visions, it is unmistakably not canon. Right? It's very clear that it's not canon. It's. It's behaving by different rules. I think that, like that saying we're gonna create this show and set it two years before the first movie, and then talk in interviews about how you're marching toward, hopefully, if you get enough seasons, a. A connected story, and then saying, but we have the COVID saying it's not canon is potentially pretty messy. And I just think that if you're gonna totally do, like, we're playing by our own rules things. It doesn't matter if the hybrids are around and not here and not in the other stories or Prodigy is a factor here and not in the other stories. Put it further away, make it less recognizable. And I think what's particularly interesting to me about that at the end of the season is. And who knows what the future plans are. I don't want to, like, understate by saying this, the presence and relevance of the xenomorphs in this season, but I think it is very fair to say that the hybrids, the eyeball jockey, the new creations, the Aztecs, were just ultimately way more interesting. The cyborg to Noah Holly, then the more traditional face hugger xenomorphs. Like, obviously, we got facehugger xenomorph action, but that wasn't the central thrust of focus of what the season was orienting around. So I. Yeah, it's not my.

[Joanna Robinson]

Understand. I. I think you make a good point. It's not my understanding that Noah Holly created this timeline so that he could do what they do at the end of Andor, which is like, we're marching literally up to what happens at the beginning of Rogue One. I thought of it more as, like, he loves Alien, and so he wanted to set it two years before Alien so that everything could kind of look like Alien and invoke Alien the way that he likes to do with something like Fargo, where he's like, this looks like something you recognize. You know, I'm here to give you this. This woman in law enforcement, but it's not Francis McDormand, but it looks like something you recognize. So let me just sort of like, you know, this. This gu. This gum you like is back in style, right? So, like, that's. That's the advantage of. Of setting it two years, like, right in that. So it's like unlike Prometheus or Covenant, where you're like, it should look different. This is like, it should look the same. But again, I think. I think they're sort of playing a little. Not in a way that I'm mad about, but playing a little fast and loose with like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. What. How beholden they are to that sort of thing. Malia, another question I had for you is I know you were tracking as recently as last week, sort of these flashing images that we've been seeing all season, and you were like, what we have seen, what we haven't seen. Do you feel like we got to see all the flashes or are there any that you remember that that never cropped up?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the one. I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I think the one that stood out in my mind just because it was so disturbing to confront front in real time when we confronted it was the doll's head that was bobbing in the. In the ocean because. And like, especially when we got, you know, a star showing a star making turn for Mr. Strawberry in the penultimate episode, I was like, the kids are going to go to war with their toys. Like, this is going to be debauched and insane. Sign me up. And then that didn't happen. But here's the thing. Doesn't mean it can't happen in season two. I think that's entirely possible. We know that the Yutani forces are approaching near further. More forces, reinforcements are coming. So the battles are going to ensue. I mean, it feels like there's a chance that season two picks up like the second that season one concluded.

[Rob Mahoney]

So I would think it might have to like, oh, go ahead, Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I would think that too, except for the way that they sort of yada yada over the way that last week's episode ended and sort of like jokes happening here. So, I mean, I would say there's no way you can show us what they showed us in this finale and not pick up right where it left off. But also, Noah, Holly might not care about that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, it's fair.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, I have an important question for you in this episode, I would say, and maybe my math might be off. I'm not a mathematician. 35% of the episode is just the xenomorph posing while eating, slash stalking, slash slashing something, running through the jungle, being backlit, posing with its child sibling on the side of a cage. Yes. How much of this is just like glamour shots, but make it xenomorph? And do we mind if that's the case?

[Rob Mahoney]

I do not mind. I enjoyed it for the style, if not necessarily the substance. I didn't think the Xenomorph recently or previously on Xenomorph Encounters Flashback added a lot to the proceedings of this episode, per se, but I myself look forward to the supercuts, and I hope people put some very inventive musical choices over the xenomorph moving around and maneuvering and kind of dancing through this episode. I would love a 4 non blondes. What's going on? Cut of the Xenomorph. In particular, I think could work very well. But I'm open to suggestions. I think true to what Mal was saying, the Xenomorph's presence in this show and even in these episodes is so much more like seasoning or so much more in this case, like, here's what you think you're afraid of and it is just kind of a guy dancing around through the jungle. And here's what you should actually be afraid of. It's the literal children who have superpowers and don't have any hesitation on using it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Now, Mal and easy to morph, other than, of course, the, the shoe endorsement angle and easy to morph.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm on, I'm personally on a real like Adidas New Balance, a six kick. So I felt a kinship, much like Wendy has. I felt a kinship with the Xenomorph in that moment. If that percentage that you are tossing out there is right. I, I, I would not be surprised. I, I'm digging the like, jungle fade cam that we have going with the Xenomorph. What I will say is the finale had no issue with the, the prominence of the Xenomorph moving through, drooling.

[Joanna Robinson]

Way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Way, way too much of Adam, Siberian and Rashidi for me. These are just not characters that I care about at all. And they got multiple scenes and I think we were very, we were light on meaningful time with some other characters where we needed minutes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

So that calibration was like. I thought the finale was really fun and there were a couple scenes that like, gave me chills. But I thought that character balance was a little off inside of the finale. And I think it led to, like, me reassessing some of the choices across the season in terms of like, if we're gonna get big action sequences and the first long awaited flora fauna kill with Siberian. Like I would like to give a shit about those characters. Yeah, the giant, as Joe called weeks ago. Multiple scenes, not just one. We have story time with boy and then the action showdown with Joe and Wendy. Multiple scenes oriented around Adam. We got that, I would say, at the expense of scenes with Kirsch, the synth that I cared way more about. So those were puzzling choices to me inside of an episode that I still, like, had a lot of fun watching. I, my last kind of big picture thought on the finale is I am just astonished by how many characters made it out of the season alive. Not in a good or bad way. I guess mostly in a good way, but like, I am if we're genuinely like Arthur by that, if we're counting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Arthur as alive, in a sense, he's.

[Rob Mahoney]

More alive than he's ever been present.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it just toodles, then?

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think, like, the body count of the Magino obviously counts, but in, like, a different way, you know? But if we're talking about, like, yeah, what Everything that happened on. On Neverland with that crew, I mean, it's. It was really contained to just, like, a bunch of squadrons of characters we didn't know. Now, that makes me very happy in terms of what it means for season two and the fact that, like, all of these figures who are interested in are still in the mix. I was, like, incredibly worried that Kirsch was gonna die in the finale. When his back broken, the stuff started dribbling. Don't take Kirsch. I'm really happy that Morrow made it out. I'm relieved that none of the other Nibs, et cetera, that none of the other Lost Boys perish. But I'm, like, kind of floored. That boy Cavalier is still alive. Again, delighted, because it's a performance that we've had such fun with. But that was not what I was anticipating heading into the finale here. What about you guys?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, even Adam, too, and also the moral one is confusing to me because I want him to live. I also cannot tell you a single good reason why Kirsch would not kill him in this moment. So there's some of that happening where it's like, yes, some of these characters are surviving. Sure, I may have expected more fatalities just given Alien has a pretty lethal history overall. But why some of these characters are surviving is a little flummoxing to me, other than we need to pad out the cell with more people who we want to, you know, string up in artistic poses.

[Joanna Robinson]

Boy, I think is interesting. Having him alive is a little bit interesting to me. Adam still being alive, I'm like, I feel like I agree with you, Mallory, that even though we've been talking about when I did a couple weeks ago ask you about secret synth, you guys both were like, but it will feel so inert. That reveal will feel so inert. And it. And I think it did. And so that felt like a miscalculation that it was supposed to be this big, like, whoa, that was a synth this whole time sort of moment. And it didn't really feel that way. I think even if we hadn't clocked, like, him catching the ball with, like, robotics speed, then it still wouldn't have been like, that interesting. What Mallory predicted last week about the synth and that it's tied to the story of. Of Boy's father is a little bit interesting to me, but I still don't know that it all came together. But, yeah, Joe's army's pal, Siberian, being the victim of the flora fauna, like that just. That didn't really work for me in the way that I think the episode wanted us to. So I understand the impulse on the secret Synth front, and I understand, you know, this whole boy wants to kill his father, father wants to kill his son stuff, which Timothy will bring up of his own accord in our interview. And, like, I think all of that is kind of interesting, but not the way that it was executed here. Yeah. I don't know, Rob, what do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think you easily could have done it and then disposed of Adam within this episode. Like, make it his big kind of exit moment, if you're going to have that sort of revelation. But as it stands, we just get the story of, like, young boy Cavalier built his C3PO and it killed his dad. And now that character's just gonna sit on the bench, frozen, when he can't. Like, he literally can't do anything because Wendy has. Wendy, Marcy has hacked into the mainframe and basically frozen him. Cause he's connected to the WI fi. Like, what purpose could he serve, narratively or otherwise, at this point?

[Joanna Robinson]

They're gonna have to. And I've, again, I put this in the notes. This is something that they backed themselves into a corner with in Westworld when they gave a character, Tandy Weed Newton's character, the ability to do this, to just sort of, like, freeze any other host. It's a very cool, like, moment, but then you're like, oh. Narratively. Oh. And so, you know, they're gonna have to take. You know, they're gonna have to take Kirsch and Adam off the WI fi, essentially, in order to, like, reroute things so that Wendy doesn't have control, which they can easily do, I think.

[Rob Mahoney]

But question for the two of you on that front, just spitballing in terms of where the story could potentially go. Do you think Wendy has that ability with the other hybrids as well, because they're mechanical bodies, and so, in theory, could she freeze them as well if she wanted to?

[Joanna Robinson]

I bet she could. And that's messy. Very messy. Who's she gonna freeze first?

[Rob Mahoney]

Curly?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, maybe Curly, but I kind of like the idea of it being. But, like, Nibs. Nibs.

[Rob Mahoney]

She feels she's the most feral. She's okay with Everything that Nibs is doing, she's unbothered as Nibs is just ripping people.

[Mallory Rubin]

AP Nibs needs to roam free.

[Rob Mahoney]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would say Slightly is really leaning into some violent tendencies. So I don't know, maybe slightly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Made us do it. I don't know how Morrow survived that blow to the head from Slightly, which I definitely think should have killed him. But again, I'm relieved that he did survive it and is still here. You know who should have gone into the Flora Fauna, Dame Sylvia. And somebody should have been there to watch. Like, you wanted to swaddle us like babies get swaddled. This.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Sylvia. Sylvia really could have gone. But then we won't have the drama of her confronting the shambling corpse of her husband next season, which is.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's true. It's going to feel meaningful to us when it's like their second conversation we've ever seen.

[Joanna Robinson]

Third, you forgot all the conversations that the actors had off screen together. Okay, quick mailbag business. Before we get into sort of like some more scene by scene breakdown, our listener Harrison wrote in and was just talking about the way in which they used Wendy and the Xenomorph in this season, which is very Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons, especially right here at the very end of the finale. But he. I think you guys brought this up earlier in the season, but he likened it to Blue the raptor from Jurassic World, which was, you know, what the raptor, the velociraptor, one of the scariest, you know, images from our childhood from Jurassic Park. Or the Xenomorph, one of the scary, you know, tamed, befriended, turned into, you know, like, let's understand it, psyche sort of thing. Making. Making these monsters Toothless and not like Toothless a dragon, but just like Toothless in a way. Like, still very toothy, still killing a lot of people. But on your side, tamable, reasonable, can work with that. To him, it just like sapped some energy out of like, one of his favorite movie monsters. Do you guys. Would you agree with that? How do you feel about that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would a little bit. I mean, I feel like this is where the collision of the ideas behind it are interesting. Right? Like the idea when Wendy is talking with Hermit about, you know, this idea that they're. Whether they're predators or not, and they're really only predators to him. They are not a threat to her in the same way. And so internalizing the idea and creating this dividing line between brother and sister over an existential threat facing humanity that's an interesting idea to kick around turning it into a pet. And now that pet has a little pet, because I guess we are still within the Walt Disney Corporation, so we cannot resist a lone wolf and cub of some kind or another. It does take a little bit of the juice out. I mean, look, the merch is right there. I would buy merch of the little xeno just crawling on the side of the cell. It was honestly kind of adorable, but I think the blue Jurassic World coding has been there. And it was even there last week too. In terms of Wendy Marcy's like, interaction, like, physical interactions with the xenomorph in which she's doing a similar, like, hold out the hand, cautious gesturing, a little woah girl moment from her. It's hard not to demystify something like a xenomorph and come out the other side feeling as scared by it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I. I think I'm in a similar place with it. I do conceptually actually find this really interesting and compelling to say. Like, well, no, first of all, like, did anyone else even try? You know, it's always like, we're gonna capture you or we're gonna kill you, or just immediately from the word go.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's also, of course, as Wendy would be happy to remind us, the idea that Wendy is special, premium chosen, not sure if you've heard, and that, like, actually she is positioned in a way that no other charact history of the franchise has been to form this kind of relationship in a way that we still don't fully understand. And I look forward to them exploring over the seasons.

[Joanna Robinson]

I.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel that way about it and I think that is true. And I also think the other part of it is true that like, the xenomorph is in rarefied air as a just genuinely, like, unimpeachably scary thing. I don't think that the idea of the xenomorph acting in partnership or concert with another being is, like, not scary. There's still, I mean, in some ways the idea that someone could use a xenomorph as, like, a hired gun is terrifying, but it is a little bit different. Just the kind of core premise that there could be any level of like, a. A link or do you know, acting on any intention other than its own. So, yeah, I'm torn. I'll withhold judgment till future seasons, I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you know who really wishes they could coo and click at a xenomorph? Who's that? David. David.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Taku. And click. He.

[Rob Mahoney]

Can you even imagine?

[Joanna Robinson]

So jealous of Marcy.

[Mallory Rubin]

He spent a lot of time on the drawings. Not as much time with the tongue clicking.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's something to think about, you know, the linguistics.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was like, yeah, the recorder, but. But not. Anyway, okay. And then in a. In a. In a cautionary tale about AI, I just want to mention our listener, Lisa, and we've actually gotten a couple of these emails recently from listeners just commenting on some of the delightful adventures inside of automatic captioning that happens on our podcast sometimes. We just got one yesterday after our Mandalorian and Grogu episode, where apparently it was captioned Mandalorian and Girl Goo was something that the captions attempted to give us different podcast.

[Rob Mahoney]

But sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory's now infamous sort of precom comment that really drew a reaction from Rob and me last week was apparently caption as like, P R E C O M O M E or something like that. So anyway, just like joys and adventures and AI captioning, all in an attempt to make our content more accessible. We should say so. Like, there is. There is a good motivation behind it, but it is an imperfect technology that is hopefully improving.

[Rob Mahoney]

I like to think it's impressionistic. You know, even the AI cannot fathom what might come out of Mallory's mouth at any point in time. And I will say, in my entire podcasting career, my favorite screenshots of various reactions have all come in response to things Mallory has said, and there have been some truly amazing ones this year.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true. It's been a banner year.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sorry, I didn't hear anything you guys said in the last three minutes because I was just thinking of the Mandalorian and Girl Goo as the spinoff we didn't get after Chapter four Sanctuary, when Mando should have gone back to live a life with Omera.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something to think about. Thing to think about. All right, think about that as we go down to our deep dive. All right, as we. As we already mentioned, we start episode eight a little bit after episode seven ended with, like, showdown at the docks. And then we can make some guesses as to how all these kids got in cages. But something that our listeners have been sort of asking questions about all season is the power scaling of the kids. Like, how strong are they? Does it take both slightly and Smee to drag Arthur's body? But Wendy can just, like, hurl things around now. She is premium. They're all premium, allegedly. But, like, how strong are all of they? Do we really believe that they could have rounded up and captured all of these children and put them in a cage if they didn't want to be in that cage, especially given how easily Wendy snaps them out of the cage partway through this episode. How do you feel about this as, like, not getting to see the resolution down at the dock, and we just sort of yada, yada, yada, here we are in the next scenario. Rob.

[Rob Mahoney]

I share in some of that confusion about the power of these kids and these hybrids, but to me, it works textually, because the story of this season is about these kids coming to understand what their power is. And really, like, the idea of putting a bunch of hybrids in a cell that physically cannot contain them is the structure of the show. It's been the structure of the whole season. These artifices that these adults are putting around them, and they are drafting on the idea that these kids will continue to act like kids. And so I think a lot of the things, like, slightly and Smee, you know, picking up Arthur's body together is as much about, like, the muscle memory of being a kid as it is them not understanding how strong they are. It's about, like, I am a kid. I need help. I'm gonna ask my friend. And also, like, I am emotionally freaked out, and I need help in that way as well, more than it is. Yeah, you could throw them over your shoulder like a sack of potatoes physically, but they're coming to terms with what that means.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, and that's a great. That's a great point. I like that a lot. And I think that also transfers to some of the other characters, like, Wendy being so not only concerned about the state that Nibs is in, but astonished by what her brother did, that maybe she is like, I need a beat. I need a beat to process, and then I'll break out of the cell that I know I could break out of, etc. So, yeah, I. I did have, I think, a. Wait, what? Yeah, the episode open, like, not only how they were all taken into custody and. And contained like that, but also just. It's such a giant emotional beat. At the end of episode seven, we. We're worried about Gibbs. What did you do? What's the same status of that relationship? And obviously, that will continue through this episode and be the subject of conversations. But I'm like, was Nibs just out for, like, 30 seconds? Like, I don't know that that warranted that reaction. Now, of course it did, because to Wendy, it's about what it represents, which is who Joe chose, of course. But, like, did they. Was any Work done on Nibs was this just like a little zap nap and then she was totally fine that I. That there's a little bit of a disconnect there between where the episode ended and where this one began and a.

[Rob Mahoney]

Missed opportunity there too. I think in terms of that follow up with Marcy and Joe, specifically, like, I want to hear what comes next after what have you done? I want to see these two people in a snap, they're in a standoff and we just yada yada to the standoff being over. Why would we skip over that when that could have been the emotional crux of the first part of the episode?

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, you could argue that the follow up conversation they have inside a boy's office post eyeball showdown is the follow up of that conversation. Right. But yeah, it felt a little fast forwardy to me. Yeah. Mallory, I want to make sure that I leave you room and time and emotional space to talk about the crab moment that we get on the beach here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tell me your thoughts. Tell me how much you were thinking about Old Bay seasoning. Tell me how much you were thinking about the crab feeder from House of the Dragon. How much you were thinking about our pal Chris or Ryan who loves the crab feeder.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like how does the crab feeder.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you, how do you feel?

[Mallory Rubin]

You got the complete list.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to step on your.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, that was, you know me so well. That was what ran through my head. You know, I love, I, I love some, some steamed crabs. So Old Bay always on my mind, but immediately that just the visual. Not only when crabs are crawling on bodies or we here at Talk to Throats and House of our going to think of the crab feeder. Of course, the visual, like the beach, the way that beach, the water glistened on the sands and the rocks were popping through and then a crab crawls up onto a corpse. I was like, this is right there. Very, very House of the Dragon Crab Feeder Episode 3. Like visually informed. And so I was thinking of Chris because he's such a fan of the character. But also then of course was thinking of David Targaryen just shouting Prince Dreha. Which, as you know, was one of my favorite vocal deliveries the last season.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's one of my favorite, my favorite CR Talk the Thrones moments because he was like so obsessed with the crab feeder and we had to be like, he's not a main character. It's not.

[Rob Mahoney]

I wish he was though.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, don't get a chance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Honestly, one of the most Visually evocative parts of that show. And in the same way I was, I was charmed and delighted by our little, you know, beach times, time we spent here.

[Joanna Robinson]

This crab, this crab being like, fantastic. Standing off with the xenomorph and just being like, go, this is my food. Get away. Like, I thought was fantastic. Really good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Alien vs Crab.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was like a cat move. I thought the way like a cat that's like smaller than some animal or feature dog would be like, get away from my churro tube or whatever the case may be. So I thought that was great. And the xenomorph retreating. Subtitling was as it should.

[Joanna Robinson]

Little touch.

[Rob Mahoney]

Did you see those pictures going? You don't want any part of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. Welcome to our ugly home.

[Rob Mahoney]

Reddit is back for a historically hideous season.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's our 100th ugly house.

[Rob Mahoney]

This place is mayhem.

[Joanna Robinson]

That is impressive.

[Rob Mahoney]

And if these walls could talk. Do you cry a lot?

[Joanna Robinson]

I do.

[Rob Mahoney]

They'd have a lot to say. What in God's name is this pit? Don't get too close. Not see the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm scared of that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Ugliest house in America. Season premiere Wednesday at 8 on HGTV.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so we get. We get a. A handy voiceover from our not second favorite synth, Adam. Inside of this world telling us about the state of affairs. You know, the hybrids are contained, but they're in a cage that probably can't hold them. Like, here's where, you know, we're cut off from the mainland. Surely other forces are coming to get us.

[Rob Mahoney]

We really are just doing Jurassic park all over again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. Meanwhile, boy you know, Adam's like, I think we should leave, sir, essentially. And boy's like, I'm sorry. I just got to stare lovingly at the sheep and think about our future together. I really am going to miss that sheep. I got to say, I'm excited for. Why can't we have more than one eye jockey? That's my question. Can we?

[Mallory Rubin]

We got to go back to space.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's the reproduction rate? Like, you know, can we split and have multiple AI Jockeys? I would love to see.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're going to have to get to the bottom of I jockey reproduction, a rich and fertile area of exploration for future pods, I'm sure. But in particular, like, I don't want to zoom into the Arthur stuff, which we are very excited about, while just forgetting about that sheep, which I would say was dropped like a coat on the floor. You know, as soon as that eyeball jumped out it was like it didn't matter at all. It was like that relationship was unimportant. And to me, it was important. To me, it meant something. So I just don't want to see that sheep done a disservice and disrespected in that way.

[Joanna Robinson]

That is a question of whether or not that sheep is alive.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was gonna say, presumably the carcass can still be reused. Should an eyeball jockey need to, like, leave Arthur's cranium at some point early in season two? I don't know. Arthur had been sitting there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who would ever want to?

[Rob Mahoney]

Mm.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's true. It's a. It's a cozy home, you know? It is. But also, I think Arthur is gonna be under fire pretty much immediately. So I just. I don't know. I'm still very invested in on this. You were right to draw our attention to Boy Cavalier's eyes, and I'm still very invested in that outcome. Before long, I think, yes, I would.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would like that to be the eventual. I just want David Rysdal to get paid. But like, on the decomp front. Yeah, like, the sheep body looks healthy and hale throughout all of this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Does the eyeball entering. And I'm just asking questions we don't know the answers to, but does that. Does the eyeball entering. Arthur's water logged, bloated.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah, surely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stinking corpse. Does that arrest the decomp, or is Arthur gonna start, like, dropping body parts? Like, how? Like what. What's gonna happen?

[Rob Mahoney]

He needs to start dropping parts. I want a full, like, Vincent d' Onofrio in Men in Black style performance from David Rizd.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's the zone I'm looking for.

[Mallory Rubin]

Will he also drop a deuce? That's the question. Like, we got such a memorable from the sheep. So is. Is Arthur gonna take a dump on Boy's floor at some point? I don't know. It's possible. I. Adam's speech about Neverland and Boy's response I thought was pretty. Pretty delightful. Like, the number of moments in this finale where Boy just does something that is, even by the standard that he has consistently established across the season, utterly inexplicable. Like, we've gone well beyond hubris into something that is, like, not really defensible, but does feel completely in keeping with how he behaves. You know, we talked about.

[Joanna Robinson]

For me, it's the skipping that he.

[Mallory Rubin]

Does to, like, whoever can meet me at the airship. I mean, yeah, that's not very much when you're constantly talking about, by the way. Yeah. You know, throughout the entire season, we talked about these, like, Chekhov's private island Chekhovs. You need a transport. And of course, you get the other side of that, which is when Morrow's team cut the line. And X, Y, and Z has happened, like, it's not just, okay, we're hard to find. Great. It's when someone finds you, which we knew they would, you are cut off from receiving any help. I thought that was very, like, take in space. No one can hear you scream and make it on Neverland. No one can hear you on your private island.

[Joanna Robinson]

Delicious.

[Mallory Rubin]

Way. I liked that quite a bit. And I thought, I do want to ask you guys about the, like, the. The part of Adam's rundown of all of the problems they're facing, though, when he said it wasn't designed, like, the cage. It wasn't designed for synthetic beings. I'm not sure how long it will hold if they decide to break out. On the one hand. On the one hand, I'm immediately hearing in my head, Loki and Avengers. Like, it's an impressive cage, not built, I think, for me, I don't understand. Understand the setup here at Neverland. Because, like, okay, the things that went wrong in the lab, the fly melting, the circuit breaker, or, you know, we talked about, is it sabotage or is the equipment just not holding up on the lunch tray? Previously, like, boy, couldn't very well have said, hey, we need to get this lab equipment to the level where it can withstand acid blood. Don't ask me why and don't ask me why we need metal melting splooge to. To be able to, like, go all around this lab. Don't. Don't worry about it. I'm not gonna, like, incriminate myself when this spaceship crashes into my city in a few days. Why are they not prepared to deal with the hybrids, though they knew what they were building there Now. We have had moments of surprise. Yeah, go ahead.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely not. This is a question we've been asking all season. Why are you letting these children in the lab? Why are. You know, like, why this? Why that? They are not prepared for any of this throughout the whole. Yes, but there's no.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like, totally. But this is a level of like, okay, like, they don't know. They're surprised to learn in real time that Wendy can hack the HR bot. And, like, see that? Right. Okay. Reveals about the extent of her power that she then capitalizes on inside of this finale to beat them. That. That great. Letting them in the lab. Whether that's wise. Or not. I think you can put under the COVID of, like, they're studying, they're amassing data. Boy is like, look at all the data coming in. When I sent them to the crash ship, it's like Christmas. This is like, there's actually no fail safe in place. There's actually no safety blanket. They had no physical space or. Or tech to say, like, we need to take them.

[Joanna Robinson]

They definitely could have. No, they definitely could have because they can knock them out, you know, they can like, shut them down. Yeah. So that. Why did they shut them down? That's the question.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why don't they lock them in there?

[Joanna Robinson]

They could lock them in the room. That's what they did with Nibs at one point. Why did they do that? I don't know. They just put them all in a cage because it was aesthetically pleasing. It seems very Peter Pan esque. And for the finale, there's a cage.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not going to hold them. But, like, why did they keep all the.

[Joanna Robinson]

All the bad adults alive at the end and put them in a cage? Like, no one's. No one's making the proper decisions on this island. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I do think as far as, like, whether there's just like a kill switch for the hybrids.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I got the impression from the nib stuff earlier this season that, like, you kind of need to walk them to the lab and lay them on that table to turn them off. Did we ever see a hybrid just getting switched off at any point this season? Like this. This episode would lend me to lead me to believe that, like, there's no way to just remote turn off, you know, Nibs at this point.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, they shocked her to, like, unconscious at the end of last episode. Do not shock.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

Shock them and then just sort of carry their bodies and place them in their little charging base. Like.

[Rob Mahoney]

But you need a lot of shock.

[Joanna Robinson]

But then we wouldn't have an episode. So that's.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true. Great point. Compelling evidence. I don't know why they're doing it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I want to talk about Curly. I don't watch a ton of documentaries. It's not my usual thing, but I have watched a lot of Curly cult documentaries. That is like, the one way you can get me to watch a documentary.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is. And now listen. The hybrids are premium accelerated intelligence. All this sort of stuff like this. I can buy into that. This is remarkably fast deprogramming work of Curly, who has been like, her whole plot this season is. I'm team overlords I'm Team Boy. I need to be the most special. All this sort of stuff like that. And all it took was Wendy just being like, I'm the favorite, actually bitch. For Curly to essentially change her mind, adopt her old name, Jane, which is very conveniently ties into the Peter Pan storytelling. Like, did this work for you? Did you enjoy this turn for Curly? Or does it feel like they were trying to get. Give each kid, like something pointed and targeted to do in this finale? Right. And it's like Nibs with something Sylvia. Okay. Slightly. And Smee with Maro and Kirsch. Okay. Obviously Marcie has to like, you know, deal with. With the boy directly and also her brother, stuff like that. And they're like. And Curly's also here. And so give her this moment where she changes her mind about how she's felt all season.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you think, Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that I will put this into a larger note on the season of like, I think at the end of the day there were just too many characters to properly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Too many kids, maybe.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like, there's a version of it where I think the kids are all kind of the main characters. And that is in a way that the finale, I think, supports like the central interest and preoccupation of the story and they all have a little bit more time and then it doesn't matter as much if we have a little bit of a trade off with other characters. But, you know, we're at the end of the season of a show we enjoyed watching. Saying this turn from Curly feels really quick. We were maybe most excited about like a showdown between Kirsch and Morrow. Did we get enough out of that, like, that we wanted. Did we ever get out of Joe and Wendy exactly what we wanted? You know, on and on the list. Like, we never we recurring bit about how we haven't seen enough conversations of substance between Arthur and Dean to be invested in the dissolution of that marriage, et cetera. So, you know, it's like. And. And that doesn't even get into the fact that like, Utani is almost here as I clock that as ip, right. And is like never really a character, more just like an aspect of like a plot device and something that's going to be recognizable and familiar to fans. Which, yeah, is fine, I think, ultimately. But, you know, I think we got a lot of really good time with Boy and Wendy consistently. And then there were other characters who moved in and out of like, okay, I feel like they're about to enter the top three or four of most relevant figures, and then we move away from spending meaningful time with them for three episodes, et cetera. So, yeah, I feel the same way about Curly. At the end here, I was like, boy, that was like. That was pretty fast. That was pretty fast. Now enough things happen to, I think, convince me and get me where I need to be. That, like, she would say, okay, boy is telling me to my face again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Did I say that? Like, I don't think that about you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes. The floor bottle thing, which is obviously deeply harrowing. I would recommend to Boy Cavalier on the floor model front. Also, Sweetie, like, very reminiscent of how we talk to Utani, you know, Sweetie, honey, together. Floor modeling. A lot of others.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Reading a lot of Peter Pan if you're gonna say floor model to a bunch of synthetic. I would recommend he brush up on his Ishiguro. He should read Claire on the sun and think about what he's doing here.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's my recommendation to him.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's. I think the damning part that. I think the damning part on the character front is if you just took Curly out of the show, basically nothing would change. And I say that as someone who, like, I think there's some interesting stuff you could do. And I'm not even talking about cigar. A plot driving perspective, but in terms of the themes that the show is interested in, the ideas that the show is interested in, yes, it would be nice to have somebody who's, like, a little more bought in on the Prodigy, bottom line and on. On what Boyd Cavalier is saying, like, that could be useful in theory, but if you're just going to fast forward what's supposed to be the progression at the end, it makes the earlier stuff feel not as important.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think I was thinking a lot about. We all three of us just recently saw Mad Max Fury Road, and in the collection of the Wives, you know, the group of wife characters inside Mad Max Fury Road, there is a character who is like, we should go back. Right. And that's used interestingly inside of that movie. So that character type is interesting. But inside of, like, a relatively short movie used better than I think Kirli has used this season. And I think to think about the shows that Noah Hawley has made, which we love, this is something that he does or he does sprawling ensemble casts in both Fargo and Legion. And I think, historically, throughout those seasons of television, sometimes the equation balances and sometimes it doesn't. You know what I mean? And sometimes you're spending time with characters you're not invested in, and you're like, wait, we didn't do the lead up for me to have the buy in on this character. And meanwhile, I'm missing this other character that you did do the good work to get me invested in. And so I think that's something he has always done, and I think it stands out more here than it has in Legion and Fargo because of something that I brought up earlier this season, I think, which is Fargo and Legion are both shows that are very, like, mannered, very stylized, very heightened reality. Not that having aliens here isn't heightened reality, but, like, the way that the characters behave in an alien franchise is always supposed to be very grounded in human. What would space truckers do? What would these army grunts do if they were encountering these monsters? And so if the. If the prompt is make it real, make it grounded, but make it alien. That's a thing we haven't seen Holly do inside of tv. And I think there are some ways in which he absolutely nailed it, and there are some performances where we were just like, the Morrow character is, like, one of the greatest accomplishments, I think, in television this year.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Baba Sisse as, like, an introduction to an actor, like, for me at least, is just, like, really incredible. So there are many ways in which this definitely succeeded, but I think there are ways in which it just shows that you can't transplant something you've done really well in one franchise directly over to another franchise, despite the fact that Noah Hawley is, and I believe him, a huge Alien fan, you know, clearly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think on the grounded front, though, it did feel grounded to me when Nib shouted a fly at his face.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm just kidding. That was great, though.

[Rob Mahoney]

I love that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Never let his. Not even once. I think to.

[Joanna Robinson]

To.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's. That's exactly right, Joe. And I think, like, Rob, what you're saying about, you know, the character who wanted to be there or had the. Like, we just got a better version of that with Isaac. Yeah, we had not a ton of time with Isaac, but that really landed and I think really pulled off. And it is ultimately, I will say, like, it is important, I think, inside of the season that there's dissension in the ranks and that the hybrids do not all agree, both because that feels true to life and because it's more dramatically interesting as we talk about across many of the properties we cover, when the group of people who are, like, theoretically aligned are opposed to each other. So I don't you know, I think positioning Curly as another character in addition to Isaac, who's like, my life is better here than it was before, was interesting. It's just the place we got, I don't know, like, Smee. I would be curious to see the total runtime for Curly and Smee. I bet it was pretty similar. And Smee is one of my favorite characters at the end of the season. And also as a character who moved in and out of different states of comfort, culpability, active questioning. All of the characters are in a place both because they're young, they're on a coming of age journey, and they're. Because they're in this extraordinary circumstance, forced to. To make these decisions that nobody should ever have to make, let alone this many times in this kind of circumstance where they're looking inward and asking about each other, but also about themselves. We, like Smee is a. I would watch an entire season centered around Smee. I do not feel that way about Curly at the end of the season.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love that kid. I. I think that at the end of the day, this idea of, like, the children, the hybrids are the monsters, the children are the monsters, something like that. I think, you know, given that this entire season has been a metaphor for parenting and all of that, this idea of confronting the children you've made and confronting them, having to consider them as not just sweeties that you can put in a cage, but, you know, actual threats who can snap open the cage if they need to at any given time. Like, that's interesting to me from a sci fi point of view, taking a very sci fi turn on this very common, almost universal experience that parents have when confronting their child turning into an adult. And so I think it can be done really interestingly. I'm not sure this season fully nailed it here at the end, but there's potential for future seasons to do that, so.

[Rob Mahoney]

And there's a lot of meat along the way too, in terms of that. That side from the parenting, and also for the hybrids, in a very kind of Buffy esque literalization of, like, what does it mean to become a person? And are you even a person in this case? Like, the idea of these kids growing into themselves and slowly coming to realize that, honestly, they really don't have anything in common with any of these adults who are telling them what to do, and thus who are they to tell them how to live their lives?

[Joanna Robinson]

Um, I. I really enjoyed the, like, smart home haunted house stuff with Marcie being like, we're gonna haunt them the way that she popped up on the monitor in Dame Sylvia's, you know, quarters and then just like, showed the footage of her as a, as a younger child being like, we're gonna be okay. Right, right, right. Messing with the elevators. All of that stuff I thought was actually really fun, elevator wise.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why does this elevator have a self destruct?

[Joanna Robinson]

That was one of my.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's falls into the conversation we're having a few minutes ago. It's like, who built Neverland?

[Joanna Robinson]

What the happened here?

[Mallory Rubin]

They don't have cells that can hold their own creations. But the elevators explode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why would they need to explode?

[Joanna Robinson]

What about a childish, emotionally stunted trillionaire who doesn't wear shoes and skips around?

[Rob Mahoney]

I guess the answer might be that simple.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it could be that simple to.

[Rob Mahoney]

Almost any question we have.

[Joanna Robinson]

Unfortunately, Marcy's messing with the comms. One of the conversations that she interrupts is between Boy and Kirsch. Right. And she's garbling the transmission. But inside of the garbling, we hear Kirsch say, adhd is severe as yours. Which is like one of my favorite lines of the episode. But what do you make of maybe Mallory, specifically in light of Tim's interview? Again, we don't want to spoil it too much, but in light of what he said about basically, we're really trying to parse what Kirsch is thinking and feeling at any given moment. The answer kind of seems to be intentionally oblique in a way that maybe even Tim Oliphant doesn't even know. But, but given the kernels that he did give us, how did that inform how you're thinking about this interaction between the two of them?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think that. This feels like it tracks to me in the sense of, like, what, what he explained to us about the idea that Kirsch is, like, responding basically each time to what Boy is putting in front of him. I, I, I don't know. Like, I think that from Boy's perspective, everything in the scene made complete sense to me. I'm curious to track this relationship most of all, I think, on a rewatch, because I, and I, I try to, like, think about how much of this is just, I've kind of, like, gotten myself, you know, I've, I've whipped myself into a frenzy anticipating an outcome, and then that's not what happened versus, like, does this feel like it is how the character should be behaving, you know, So I, you know, as you guys know, have been spending most of the season, I think, waiting for Kirsch to do I Guess what? Feels to me like what he should have done, which is just say to Boy, you're going to tell me to grow a pair of balls. Like, fudge you. You're not as smart as you think you are, and I don't have to do what you say. Now, I thought that this. This response was, as you said, Joe, quite, quite comedically compelling. Just genuinely very funny. I also like that for Boy. It was like, kind of like a humanizing thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think for Kirsch, it's a reminder, like, thinking back to the. One of the first exchanges that he and Morrow had, like, you know, where. Where are you king of? And it's like, why work for Prodigy, right? You know, this idea that, like, this is his creator and this is. This. This is the extent of the reality of his life is like working for Boy, taking orders from Boy, doing what Boy wants, working in the lab. And that's not an easy thing, I guess, to turn off. But I don't know. I think. Think, like, okay, we didn't get pushing Boy into an egg, and that's fine, but I do feel like he should just be like, you're a fucking idiot. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is why everyone lives, you know, Broken backs can be fixed.

[Mallory Rubin]

I sure hope so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Especially mechanical ones. Yeah. There. There was this idea. Yeah. Actually, I'm not going to get into it, because I would rather people listen to Timothy Oliphant tell them than me tell them. Rob, Take us into the cage, a different cage with Maro and Joe, and we get this conversation, you know, talking about the events of the first couple episodes of the season. You know, you shot me, I saved you, blah, blah. This idea of that's a yesterday conversation, like, how. How did.

[Rob Mahoney]

And, like, very good.

[Joanna Robinson]

You. We're not so different, you and I. You've got a synth lung, I've got a synth arm. Like, you know, how do you. How do you feel about that? So how did this interaction, a payoff of an earlier meeting in the season, work?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I wouldn't say it was like, a particularly rich payoff, but the idea that Joe, in particular would honestly have more in common with someone like Morrow than he would with his own sister at this point, isn't a. Is an interesting idea and is, I think, a good wedge to kind of drive into these dynamics and relationships, even as Joe is getting sort of, like, grandfathered into the gang, because Smee's like, yeah, he's cool. I guess. I. I don't really understand why the hybrids would be down with Joe. At this point, considering he just electroshocked Nibs. But this ultimately these two people play.

[Joanna Robinson]

Django with them essentially one time played.

[Rob Mahoney]

Django, watched as they ate some like flavor strips or whatever. Like, honestly, by the grace of Ice Age, he is grandfathered into their little crew. Other than that, I don't have an explanation for it, but I like the idea of Moro for yes, he's wanting to do some horrible things and he clearly has terrible intentions within, you know, Neverland and Prodigy at this point point. But that doesn't mean he's just like indiscriminately killing everybody. It doesn't mean he has an axe to grind with every single person. He is mission driven. And Joe is kind of irrelevant to his mission at this point in a way that, yeah, the last time we bumped into each other, that really was a yesterday consideration. That was a yesterday problem. Now we're just two guys sharing a cell and one of us has his hand in a Pringles can. It's all very normal.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory, how about you? How did this interaction work?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I thought so. I thought that like on the. The that's a yesterday conversation front. That felt right to me given that Morrow like arrived return onto Earth with this totally myopic, like, I gotta get the specimens back. It's all I have. I orient every decision and my entire world feels around this mission. Yeah, I was really struck by feels good, doesn't it? Being more than human. Because that felt to me very contrary to what we had previously heard from Morrow. Which was the worst parts of a man like that he was ashamed almost of the human parts of him that continued to linger, that made him weak, that made him susceptible, that made him vulnerable, that made him feel, that made him think about a past he couldn't have. But then I really liked how this all tied together. Which is like the price, right? The price being everything is again, this is all like how he has to justify this to himself because his kid is gone. The years that he could have had with her, gone. The justification that he made for signing up for the mission in the first place because his daughter died, gone. The crew dead. The questions about his own morality and his choices clouding every aspect of his thinking, waking life. Now moving forward, he's asking random children he meets, would you have done this thing? So the idea of this being the most all consuming thing I thought was an appropriate weight to share with Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I go back to something you just said? I don't feel that that's what he says here is Contradictory when him. Him saying the worst parts of a man feels right in line with me with. Feels good, doesn't it? Being more than human. And this idea that he wants one of those hybrid body. I gotta get me one of those bodies. Like, he doesn't wanna be human at all. He wants to be all synth going forward. And so that feels connected to me. Right. Like the worst parts of a man feels good, doesn't it? Be more than human. Like the little bit of synth inside of you feels like. Makes you feel a little special, a little shiny. And I would like to just. Once I get my hand out of this Pringles can just give me the whole hybrid treatment and I. And I will gladly take it. He's a man who's done being human because, like, his heart is broken. His. His child died. He doesn't want to feel that anymore. Anymore. You know, Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I think I'm probably taking this conversation with Joe and that line to Joe in concert with what he says to Kirsch, where he's like, the human will will always prevail.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, so he's.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's something still sacred and superior to him about the human experience. And ultimately to Joe, he's saying it to another, like, in essence, cyborg, like a. A hybor. A hybrid of a different sort. So I don't think that's a critique. I think this is an interesting place to find Morrow. But it felt like a little bit of an evolution, maybe of what he had said before.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think what you guys are talking about feels like an extension to me of what we saw from Moro earlier in the season when he first plugged himself in for the download or whatever. And it was like his body was at war with itself. And I think there is the part of him that wants to wipe away all this pain. There's also the part of him that is a cyborg as a means of being saved by Yutani. Right. Of being pulled out of the gutter, basically, and given a kind of life. And he. You know, it's weird to feel, like, indebted and thankful for that, but at the same time, maybe resent some of what it takes away from your humanity, but also elevates you above humanity in its own way. And him having to reconcile all of these different feelings about being a little less than and a little more than human in some ways.

[Joanna Robinson]

And there's also the cost that comes with it. Right. Which he mentions, which is just like, you know, everything. Everything doesn't even begin to Cover it. Right. You know, like, they own you forever. He's emotionally indebted. And also just sort of like they've got a. You know, they've got a copyright on my arm. Like, you know what? What? I'm not my own person anymore.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

What follows here is we get, I guess, the payoff of this whole, like, Joe didn't visit Marcy when she was in the hospital because he was at war. And he gets. We see this flashback sort of similar to Morrow's contemplation of letters from his daughter of Joe reading these really sad letters from Marcy being in the hospital. Yeah. Their dad, Noah Hawley, isn't even visiting her. And she's, like, really sad. And she's like, I really wish you could come and hang out. And he's devastated. We see how much this hurts him to not be able to go. But my question is, to what end all of. All of this? Mallory, this is something that you've been tracking a bit and sort of waiting for a payoff for this.

[Mallory Rubin]

To what end?

[Joanna Robinson]

At the end of the day, this sequence.

[Mallory Rubin]

So this is like, right on the heels of Wendy and Smee talking and Wendy saying to Smee, like, he chose them. And I think that Wendy's current in this stretch of the episode. He chose them. Uncertainty is. Is made, like, increasingly potent by us have. Knowing that she has those seeds of doubt from the past. Right. Like, did he do everything that he possibly could to come see me? Could he have been by my side? Those are enriching elements in. In. In conjunction with each other. Like, would he choose me above all else? And then that is back on her mind when she thinks he didn't do that by frying nibs, albeit for very temporary.

[Rob Mahoney]

Microwave. Dead.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very temporary.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, it's like actually kind of one of those, like, those rejuvenate yourself treatments where you just get, like, minor shocks all over your body and you're like, oh, my collagen is reactivated.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, my God. You know, I would love a little, like, recreational tasing before the next pod. Like, really juice me up.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Get us ready to go, Rob.

[Joanna Robinson]

You got it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I think, though, like, the thing is, we saw this. I don't think any of us doubted that Joe. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

That it was upsetting when he said.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, I missed you. I was devastated. I would have been there if I could have been. And, like, Wendy didn't gain any insight here. So I don't think it achieved anything ultimately other than showing us something that we had no reason, frankly, to previously doubt.

[Rob Mahoney]

I only wanted to follow up if there was doubt, if there was like some gray area of something he wasn't telling her or holding back or some other reason he couldn't be coming to visit her, that would have been interesting. But if you're just gonna show us as you're saying the thing that we already were kind of told by the characters to believe. And yes, there was some ambiguity and some like, should I trust him about this kind of sewn into that episode. But this just felt like a sliver of a story that I don't. I either don't need it or I need more. So this, this kind of deployment didn't really work for me with this follow up.

[Joanna Robinson]

Question to you. Do you think this is included so that Noel Hawley could get the requisite screen time to get his Screen Actors Guild card?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just a question. Just ask.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're doing the important work. We're getting people registered. We're getting a crucial, like, you know, let the actors weep on screen scene. It's all very important within the context of the show and the production.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, next we have a section I'm calling BattleBots Morrow versus Kirsch. This is something that we've been like, sort of. It's been building and building these interactions between these sassy cyborg and the sassy robot and the. And they're like hatred of each other and how they definitely have to lead up to something. Here. Friend of the Pod, Alan Sepamwall, the great Alan Sewell, often will text me questions about Game of Thrones. Hey, Joanna, what was like, what technically is this in Game of Thrones? Like, what did the fandom think about this? This is like, I'm like, Game of Thrones, Aedia or whatever. And so he was asking about, click. He's like, what was the origin of Clambo? Like, what? You know, blah, blah. Did it come from the fans? Like, what was all that? And I was. So I was telling him and he was like, because that's what I was thinking about. And I was. He was like, that's what I was thinking about when I was thinking about Mario and Kirsch. And I was like, same in that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't.

[Joanna Robinson]

I felt kind of let down by both, to be honest with you. I'm not a huge gamble lover. And this just felt like, okay, I don't know. We watched them fight and smash each other up. And I'm not sure the John Henry section.

[Rob Mahoney]

However, in defense of the comp Joe, like, this is six episodes of Buildup versus seasons and years of potential buildup in the Clegane case.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, the Cleganbell.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, it's not, it's not a one to one comp. But it's just sort of like in terms of like something that they have laid track for. And then they're like, here you go. And I'm like, is this what I thought you were cooking me when you put all these ingredients in the bowl? That being said, the John Henry was a steel driving man sort of conversation I thought was really good. And yeah, to Mallory's point that she's referenced, in the end, men will always win. It's a question of will. Ding. John Henry die of exhaustion. Marrow's saying, I'm just getting started. Something I thought was interesting. Digging into sort of the John Henry legend, which is wildly distorted. You know, there was a man, John Henry. Did he do any of this? Questionable. Did he die of exhaustion? Surely not all these other things. But in 2000 there was a Disney short, animated short that I remember. There's like a couple different filmed versions of the John Henry story that I've seen. But in this Disney animated version, his hammers are forged from the chains of his like enslaved existence. The chains are turned into the hammers that he then uses to beat the machine and then die. And, you know, I thought that was interesting. Spoilers for John Hurry. I thought that was interesting inside of Morrow's earlier conversation about sort of like, you know, they, they give, put this arm on you, then they own you. Like, you know, you belong to them, your property. And so I thought that was interesting. I really, really, really liked that conversation in terms of like the rest of it. I did enjoy, you know, watching the goo come out of our guy Kirsch. That was pretty fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

Watching the goo come out of Kirsch.

[Joanna Robinson]

Phrasing, freezing, unintentional.

[Rob Mahoney]

How high and mighty Joe was earlier in this episode for social.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory, what did you think of, of, of this interaction?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm, I'm with you completely. I, I, I just like these two are the best and their interactions have been the best. It's just crackled with electricity every time they've shared an exchange. Now, you know, granted, it's, it's been, it's only been a few scenes and it's mostly been oriented around a pissing contest. So we've critiqued a lot of other characters for not being ready to fire. Morrow sneaking in and kirsch. Like, I'm at the soldering table, I'm going to turn around and shoot you immediately whoops, I accidentally shot the glass of the floor of on a cage. And then things unfold very quickly from there. I guess actually is like appropriate. I would have loved a version of this scene that was like 40 minutes long.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Honestly, because conversation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. The John Henry stretch was, I thought, sensational. I mean Bob, as you noted already has been like astonishing all season. And I thought this was one of his even by that standard, better moments. The in the end man will always win. It's a question of will I. Give me a chill. I cannot possibly find sufficient praise for Kirsch. Back broken. Oozing the stuff. Mustering the strength for that witty rejoinder. Oh yeah, Flick incredible.

[Rob Mahoney]

Only the greats have that in there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh my God. I wanted more of that. That was fantastic on the Thrones comp front. Listen, you'll never hear me support the episode the Bells. So that's not going to happen. Now. Of course, I had a similar response to like the. The length of time building up to Cleggie and bowl is different. I was thinking here's another scene that this does not measure up to, to be clear. Got some Mountain and the Viper vibes from the like I didn't finish the job and then you swept out my ankles.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure got caught. Taunting. Yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also we got a Yutani, the younger turn of phrase. So that's very Thronesy too. So Thrones on the mind here throughout this scene. Not for the last time in this episode, certainly.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did like that intersection too in terms of Moro of like the human will and human folly kind of all coming swirling forward here and ultimate being his undoing in terms of this fight, which I agree could have been much longer, I think would have been very satisfying if it were a little more drawn out and if there were a little more back and forth between them. I also, in addition to the Jurassic Parks and the Game of Thrones and everything that is in kind of the stew here. I mean, big Batman versus Bane vibes in terms of the broken back. The first of two Batman. Well, I mean later we get Boy Cavalier basically telling them how he got these scars, like almost doing word for word the like my father situation. So clearly it's in the mix here as well. I love like an incapacitated character having to be resourceful in this moment and the fact that it is a synthetic and the synthetic is being kind of challenged not just for, you know, his. His ability or his intellect or whatever, but for his heart and kind of coming through in exactly the way that he's being challenged by more of that. I think that's pretty enticing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say great Batman comps, great Thrones comps, all this stuff in there. We would be remiss inside of an episode that has a Timothy Oliphant interview to not say to people who are listening to this who haven't already, you should watch Justified. It's an incredible television series. And this idea that our guy Timothy Oliphant really gives himself would not be.

[Mallory Rubin]

Quick on the trigger.

[Joanna Robinson]

First to fire is most on brand Justified.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's actually in his contract. Allah. Like you know, Jason Statham and the Rock can't lose a fight in the Fast and the Furious. It's like Tim Oliphant has to shoot first or else he just simply will not show up.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly. Okay, we've already talked a bit plenty about the. The Adam reveal, the floor models and sweeties moment and stuff like that. Anything you want to add to this, this section when boy just like wanders into the cage? I mean I will say Marcy sitting there cross legged saying what's the story? And snapping open the cage is. I actually think her bam. It's either that or her like sort of world cup worthy kick of the eye jockey across the room that she does a little later in the episode. But that was rude. But I think, I think the snap, the casual seated snap of you think you can. You're in here with us, my friend. What's the story is I thought was really, really good. I really, really liked that. But Mal, anything you want to add to this boy backstory?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. I don't understand why he walked into this cell. As we've already discussed.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just feel this is nuts.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that you know, to. To. To make continue this through line of our. Our pod today about like where do we find the hybrids morally in terms of what they're justifying to themselves? Yeah, I think we must observe that as boy is telling the story. Daddy was a drunk. Mouth breathers. You know, a Stranger Things season when someone's saying mouth breathers. He said and to this troglodyte was born a miracle. A boy genius destined to rule the world. Referring to yourself as a miracle chosen special premium and then saying as we will hear, what are we meant to do?

[Joanna Robinson]

Rule.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll rule. I think those parallels are certainly not accidental and they are. They're worth observing and considering in terms.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of where we find Wendy also just casually snapping the neck of any given soldier that you know, might be around like no worries about that light work.

[Rob Mahoney]

No problems. I. I mean, as far as why Boy is walking into this cage to begin with, I do love the idea that that character is at a place where it's been so long since he has been checked by anybody that he has felt almost like forgotten what danger looks like. That there is a part of him that still, even as Wendy is snapping the door open, thinks that he is in control of the situation, thinks that he can walk in there and say whatever he wants and they're just gonna listen to him. He's clearly not up to date on some of the internal dynamics among the Lost Boys at this stage, but he's also not up to date on just, like, how far out of his control this whole situation has drifted.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, this from a character. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Joe. Apologies. Go ahead.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, I was expecting, you know, either when he's inside of this cage here, realizes that he's surrounded by threats, or later, when he's toe to toe with the xenomorph.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

To get that sort of like, Peter Pan to die would be an awfully big adventure sort of moment. But when he's, you know, tied up in the cage at the end of the episode, he's still King Joffreying his way through it is just sort of like, are you gonna let her speak to me like that? You know, like, nothing radically altered inside of him at the end of this season, which is not the end of the world, but, like, what is it gonna take? Is it only death going to stop his raging adhd? I have adhd, so I have solidarity.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, you know, not to zoom ahead too much. But ultimately, like, the lasting image we get of Boy at the end of this episode as he's being kind of, like, bossed around. I mean, I think he likes it a little bit. I think there is a part of him that is terrified, and there is a part of him that's like, this is exactly what I wanted. Like, I wanted to create. Yeah. I wanted to create something that would surpass humanity. And so there is that war within him, too, where, yes, he wants to stay alive. Although I don't know what putting the bulletproof vest is going to do at this stage. This doesn't really seem like the primary concern, but he is getting what he wanted in a sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, definitely. I think the character who spent, like, all season saying, just assume I'm one step ahead, finding himself at a critical moment actually behind, is very dramatically compelling and satisfying. I think that you're right, Rob, that, like, he enters that cage almost like the. The shape of it. It's almost like we're in, like, an mma, like, octagon. You know, I'm like, boy's actually not. I don't think boy is stupid. So he cannot possibly believe that having one guard with a gun is gonna do jack. There's no way he thinks that. But he's there to exert or for as long as he can continue to pretend, he can say, I'm the one in control. Yes. I'm the one who controls you. I get to make these decisions. And so we have this, like, connective thread and cyclical nature of. He's there to complain about his father who would have killed his son. And then, of course, he's talking to his children. He is their creator, and they feel the same way about him now that he did about his. His dad. Right. So there's all of that, which I thought was very satisfying to watch inside of this conversation. You feel like each of the characters has some level of awareness of that parallel circumstance, and some of them have decided to process it differently than others. I. I'm with you guys. Like, I think when we build toward that final moment. And there are tears in his. Because there are tears in his eyes elsewhere in this episode when he's rewatching Bas. If I'm remembering correctly, when he's rewatching the. The moon landing sequence, and it's almost this, like, wistful, okay, this hasn't actually gone exactly how I thought it was gonna go. And even I have to admit that. Right. And then the. The kind of mad gleam in his eyes and on his face at the end when he has clearly been beaten. I read it the same way. It's like, my loss is. Is a victory because only I could have done this. Only I could have put somebody in the world capable of beating me.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And finally, a worthy opponent, you know, et cetera.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not a conversation on the mountaintop, but, like, it's the next best thing.

[Rob Mahoney]

It is. Could we interrogate some of the Peter Pan stuff briefly? Because I was fascinated by its role in this episode. And I would say kind of the level of introspection that the show itself seems to have about its own kind of framing device. And Wendy, as a character, kind of calling out, like, this fucking mythology that you think that you are subscribing to, that you have built your life around, that you've constructed all of us as Lost Boys in Neverland and conceived of yourself as Peter Pan. Not only are your metaphors all Busted. And the analogy, not one to one, but whatever I am cannot be explained in an old book. And I thought that the show kind of confronting. At least that's what it felt like to me. Its own sort of framing device. Like, I love that idea. I love. You know, we've called out at points over the season the fact that, like, okay, this excerpt felt like a little much. This felt like a little much. And in retrospect, I think a lot of that stuff feels like boy narrativizing and trying to make sense of everything that's happening through this stuff in a way that is an unreliable narrator kind of tendency and is something that the show is in, like, direct conversation with.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really like that. I like that a lot. Other things I liked on the Wendy Marcy front, or I should say the Sydney Chandler front, I would say the delivery of Run was really good. Her little gesture, Run. And then when she says. And this is a reference Mallory can get now when she says, nobody touches my brother was real Buffy. Nobody messes with my boyfriend energy. Which I really enjoyed. So.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that. I also love the kids just using some, like, these childlike ideas. What do ghosts do? Like, they haunt houses. That's a very, like, kid, like, way to talk about that. How are we gonna. What they are ultimately doing is hunting down the people that they intend to now control and exert the same power over them that they had had exerted against them. And they're like, well, we're gonna do that by playing hide and see. Like, that's. That was. That stuff was perfect, I thought.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Smee going full, like, monster mash in the background. Like, there's a lot of juicy stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Along with the nibs growl, which internally wonderful. Really, really good. So, yeah, I thought the whole hide and seek sequence was, like, pretty great. Nibs dropping down from the ceiling to. To grab Dame Sylvia, who.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very xenomorph. Like, you know, that's the xenom.

[Rob Mahoney]

I.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely.

[Rob Mahoney]

I did think it was. I found it interesting that as they're rounding up all the adults, very particular attention was paid to Dame Sylvia. It's like everyone else, they're just kind of grabbing or tying up or apprehending in some way. Dame Sylvia is, like, being punished, right? Like, she is being kind of tormented with the old video. She is being kind of, like, backed into an emotional corner in a way that, like, as it kind of actualizes later when she's in the cage and, like, you know, going out of her way to apologize and basically plead for her Life. Like, there is an emotional dishonesty to that character that it feels like the kids have really picked up on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I think the person who's messing around with your memory, who is offering this. Yeah. Fake comfort, saying, Wendy Darling, not just in a cute Peter Pan way, but in a. Just sort of like, I'm your mother. I wear a lot of scarves. I'm personally pro scarf, but not in the way that she uses them to soften, like, some really shitty stuff that she does and stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, how did you feel about her, like, bohemian headscarf look in this episode? Joe?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm a huge fan of a banana. I really, really loved it. I also love her aesthetic moment of I'm going to gaze dreamily out this window at this rain in a sort of moody, look at my tea, look at my scarf kind of way. Like, I feel like she knows the exact picture that she's painting of herself.

[Mallory Rubin]

If the pop culture that moved into the future had been Deadwood instead of Ice Age, she would know not to have kept her back to the do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or the ceiling beds.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was nuts. I'm like, you guys are all under threat.

[Rob Mahoney]

Stay frosty look throughout this entire episode. Dame Sylvia also is just like out wandering about to the graves where we should say she just almost gets got by the xenomorph at point blank range. I know we're in flashback territory, so it's like, you know, not everything has happened yet. Presumably when that happens. But there are already soldiers out patrolling constantly because they're needing to be vigilant of threats. Is now the best time to go lay the flowers on the graves?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, no, no, it's not the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Best time to walk into a cage of hybrid children who kind of want to kill you. No, nothing anyone does makes sense.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nobody's behaving rationally. I think this is of a piece with what you were saying a couple minutes ago where, like, you know, it's kind of remind what you were just saying. Kind of reminds me of how Wendy talks about the aliens and why she likes them in the conversation with Joe. It's like they're honest. What they do is honest. And like, like Dame Sylvia, you know, the characters are, I think, in the same position we are as viewers, which is satisfying. There is something more deplorable about her, her. Her falsehood. Right. And saying, I'm doing this for you, boy, is honest. He's a monster and a piece of. But he'll look them in the eye and say, you're floor models. I, I Own you. I can do whatever I want with you, sweetie. Right, Kirsch? I think in some ways, Kirsch is kind of the most fascinating. Like, oh, yeah. It makes complete and total sense to me that when SME and Slightly show up and he says, tie up Morrow, they tie him up instead. It makes sense to me that they put him in the cage because he's yet another adult who use him as a tool, who didn't help them, who didn't go out of his way to help them and stand with them, who didn't protect them. Right. Which he could have and chose.

[Joanna Robinson]

He put them in the cage. But yes, time we saw Slightly and Smee, it was like, under his protection. So he put them in that cage.

[Mallory Rubin]

He sent them out under false pretenses to. To be. To the beach, all that. So he has clearly, like, not been their protector and ally and supporter and has wronged them.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he.

[Mallory Rubin]

They come down, Wendy in particular, parroting the lessons that he has imparted.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I was kind of almost, like, hoping for a version of. Of the scene at the end where, like, basically they say to him, like, you could have been here with us. But, you know, almost a Sansa Littlefinger, like, thank you for teaching me this lesson. Kind of a moment where the extent of the disappointment they had in him was kind of like, put in front of him to have to process and confront. But, yeah, Dame Sylvia, all she did was say, I'm your mom. I'm gonna cradle you to my bosom. I'll care for you.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll make you the tea and the.

[Mallory Rubin]

Flavor that you love. I'll tell you, I'm gonna teach you about your new body, even though that new body is a thing that I helped build and control. I thought it was great touch that. Obviously, the horror of the Marcy. Won't we, Won't we, Won't we Repeating was chilling. We get to hear from Rose, from Nibs before that in the archival footage. And, like, that was such a great touch.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, that's so intentional, right? That Marc is like, I'm gonna send you some Nibs footage. All right, enjoy that. Suck on that.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, this is where. I mean, like, honestly, the best punishments are always specific. Right. This isn't just like, something doled out as a sentence. It's like, we. Wendy, Marcy at least knows this is. This is a cutting thing for Dame Silvia and maybe the cutting thing for Kirsch in a way. Like, maybe they. They know synthetic life well enough to know that, like, we can't really get under this guy's. Like, there is no point in a comeuppance moment, like, taunting him. Yeah, he is a. He is a toaster. And so we're just gonna put him up on the top shelf draining milk and just leave him up there, because what else are we to do?

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory already called out some closed captioning we got in this episode. I want to shout out raspy bleeding slash, ragged bleeding.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which is what we get from our friend the eye jockey, inside of the sheep before the sheep collapses like a pile of laundry. And we get Adam trying to feed Joe to the eye, essentially. I will give you. Give Joe this credit. Like, yeah, you know, he had a few moves inside of this. He wasn't just, like, nibs, like, like, hand in front of the face, though he did plenty of that move. But, like, you know, he gets inside of the little sheep container. Like, that was quick thinking. Faster than I would have reacted. Like, that was a good move.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what's fascinating thinking, Joe, is the eyeball jockey jumping in the food tray.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, I seen a food tray come into play in this season of TV.

[Joanna Robinson]

Before, but I liked how it was like that classic horror movie. Like, did I lock all of the car doors inside of this car that I have sort of, like, tried to escape the killer from? Like, I thought that was, you know, and the pattering on top of the. Like, I thought all of that was, as is everything with the eye jockey.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's great.

[Joanna Robinson]

10 out of 10. No, no, it's really, really good stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

I feel like the eye jockey, and part of the reason it's so successful is it kind of captures what's terrifying about the facehugger and the xenomorph at the same time. Like, it has that sort of clattering around the room, creepy, crawly thing going on. And also the just, like, rip your head open danger. And so the fact that it can tap into both those things to such a degree that you are locking yourself in an animal crate, you know, it's a formidable foe.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we get this, like, after the fight, after, like, Marcie has defended Jo and Frozen Adam and all this sort of stuff like that. We get this line that Mallory has already brought up this, like, you know, I like them, the aliens, they're honest, which feels to me very tied to this quote we brought up when we were talking to Noah Hawley from Ash and the original Alien, right? When he says, I admire its purity. But the alien, a survivor, unclouded by conscious remorse or delusions. Of morality. This very famous alien line, sort of twisted and Ash is a villain. So in this inside of this, like the real monsters, who's the villain inside of this episode? To have Wendy echo a quite famous line from a famous villain inside of the Alien franchise is, you know, should. Should give everyone some pause. You know, terror can come with micro bangs. It can happen. You know, you gotta, you gotta be on the lookout always.

[Rob Mahoney]

I have a question on the honesty front. I would argue that especially the face hugger, fundamentally dishonest. The whole like bait and switch of I'm gonna latch onto your face and lay my egg discreetly and then I'm just gonna leave and die and make you feel like you're okay for a little bit. I don't think that's very honest. I don't think it's an honest way to live.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wow. You feel like you've been emotionally manipulated by the facehugger as well.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm just saying. Calling the xenomorph and the alien species honest, direct, sure. Driven by instinct. Absolutely. But they creep around in vents, trapping people, hiding, as we saw in this season, laying traps and trying to pull people out, using humans as bait. That does not seem particularly honest to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, I don't know. That just feels like creative problem solving to me. Mallory. Sorry.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we gotta, like, consider the audience. You know, she's saying this to Joe, who was bait, fell for Adams. Like, hey, I know you think boy Cavalier wants to kill you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why don't you come to his private quarters? Just swing by the office. Yeah, I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

We know your sister has rights.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we, I. We've been reflecting. We think she has rights. Now, I know the last time we talked I told you that unless you QCD the is this convincingly a human experiment, we would take your lung back. But like, I promise it's going to be fine. And Joe's like, lead the way. Lead the way. So what does Joe know about honesty?

[Rob Mahoney]

Ultimately, Great question.

[Joanna Robinson]

What does Joe know about anything?

[Rob Mahoney]

Increasingly nothing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would use just a very inept character. He's got med. He was, I want to say he was competent in, in the earlier episodes, but really he was just extraordinarily lucky time and again with that xenomorph. But I would like to see his like medic knowledge come into play. Like he's, he's got some skills. He's a skilled guy. Like, let's see him. Or you know, the heart, which, sure. So far he's just mostly been damsels, which, you know, a Little bit is. It is what it is.

[Rob Mahoney]

I want to give him credit for one thing. I thought one of the most terrifying moments in this episode is in that conversation that he's having with Wendy Marcy about the idea of things being complicated. And in a way, her saying that, like, it's complicated is what powerless people say to justify doing nothing. It felt like a little writerly to me, and not necessarily something that this literal child would say, but admittedly, it's a literal child with a robotically enhanced brain. So who am I to say she's premium? She is absolutely premium.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll be French in a week.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know what? You're absolutely right. And I'm not here to judge her. I do think Joe as a character is very, like, feckless and ineffective in the way that Marcy is sort of calling out, like, he is using the complications of these situations as cover to basically do nothing in the way that, to be honest, a lot of us often do. Like, things are very complicated, and we get frozen in place and we don't make decisions or we don't pick sides, whatever it is. But there is something about a child thinking that power is the solution to complexity that is fucking terrifying to me. And how they would wield that to just kind of bludgeon their way through whatever they consider to be a problem. Like, one of the most terrifying constructions you can have is not just the unsparing lethality of this alien species. It's the idea of something having an immense and uncounterable amount of power without any mental ability to grapple with what it means or what it is. Or even, in this case, to, like, stop Nibs from ripping people's jaws out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean, we have the, like, emotional payoff of hearing Nibs Rose on the footage, talking about how she's, like, unsure. Right. She has mixed feelings. And then we understand how that sense of, like, moving in between states of acceptance really defines where we find Nibs as a hybrid. We also heard Nips say it would be pretty. It would be pretty sick to have superpowers. I could be invisible and sneak up on people. That's what Nibs is doing now.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, like, all of that happens, I think, like, one of the. You know, because we're, I think, rightly, really zeroing in on the things that we hear Wendy say, both because she is the main character of the show and also the leader of this group and the one who is most. With the most assurance.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Espousing this point of view. But she is and this is crucial. Not the only one. Like in the Morrow Smee slightly scene. Your time is done. It's our time. Now is absolutely no different from Wendy saying now we rule. And it fits exactly with what you're saying, Rob, about like how terrifying that is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think Goonies survived along with ice age?

[Mallory Rubin]

Why are they not watching that all the time? If so. But yes, I hope so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our time now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And okay, I think to, to. To continue with that line of thought, Rob. Like I was really struck by. In this same stretch right after the, you know, you know, you know why I like them? The aliens. They're honest. They're predators. We're food to them. No, you're food to them.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very striking. Not only because it's another. Like there's a separating of humanity and hybrid status. We are superior. But this was a real like blaring siren short memory warning for Wendy. Like Isaac was food two episodes ago.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's true.

[Mallory Rubin]

You had this whole system and it was a lie.

[Joanna Robinson]

But when she's talking about. No, but when she's talking, well, my understanding of Wendy. And granted I don't know the inner workings of her beautiful mind, but like she seems really focused on bonding with the xenomorph.

[Rob Mahoney]

She's not the one she can talk.

[Joanna Robinson]

To drop kicking the eye for sure. You know, Like, I don't think she gives a about the flora fauna. I think she's like, let's fry the fly. It could hurt us. You know, blah, blah. But like the. I think this food chain conversation is a little interesting because they've had a version of it already. Like this is something that they've talked about. Like you're. We're not the same.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't share your line of thinking because I am not on the same place in the food chain that you are on my guy Joe. And so we've seen them have this conversation. She's having it with him again. He's never going to really get it, I think, because he's not. Just because he's like our guy Jo, but also because this is Marcy and he's never gonna be able to let go of. Unless he will in a later season be able to let go of this idea that this is my little sister.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, but as she says, like, she's not Marcy, she's not Wendy, she's not a girl, not yet a woman. It's the whole thing. She can't be everything to anyone at any sense.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's the Khaleesi.

[Rob Mahoney]

She is the Khaleesi.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. Yeah, I think the fact that the her. I agree her special relationship and special feelings are specific to the chitter chatter, tongue click relationship with the xenomorph. But, like, that's just another version that to me of her making the same mistakes that she's accusing other people of making, which is like, I get to decide who's relevant or what's relevant or who's worthy of. Of some sort of recognition. And you know, the fact that, like, in some ways, if she considers the flies and the flora doesn't think about them at all, probably it's like more Don Draper than Adam. I don't think about the fly at all. But, like, if she does and she considers them lesser than the xenomorph, then the fact that they got Isaac should be even more damning. It should be even further cementing the idea that they are vulnerable too. And that part of moving forward should be saying, how do we protect ourselves? How do we make sure we're okay? She's mad at Joe because of the choice he made, but also because it was one. Yet another moment where they had to confront the fact that they were vulnerable for a couple seconds between episodes, admittedly only. But, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think, yes, I, I think you calling out like, what, you know, the. It's our time now is really important. But also the slightly in Smee conversation when they talk about, like, sort of why they did what they did and slightly sort of really sticking to a. They made me do it. They made us do it. We didn't do anything wrong. They. The adults made us. And then inside of this episode where they're taking control of the compound, they're the ones in charge. You know, it, of course, harkens back to Morrow talking about taking responsibility. And this is what a child does versus this is what an adult does. But like, this idea that we can rule, we can put these bad actors in cages. We can do all these things without going through the emotional, psychological evolution that one has to go through in order to become an adult and become capable of being in charge. Large, I thought.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And when does it switch from. To hearken back to yet another moment that they shared with Mara with the, like, the initial quandary that he posted them and this, this kind of like, test. Well, what would you have done? Yeah, immediately they greeted that with this, the con. Well, what's the context? And so when does it shift for these characters from even here? Now they can say either they made us or we're doing it for our friends. We're doing it to protect our friends. When does the shift into. Actually, we just kind of like it. Actually. We just want to, you know, and it feels like we're right on the precipice of that. Or maybe that's already happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything you want to say before we get to the Pearl Jam needle drop at the end of this episode? Anything you want to say about this final encounter in the cages? We've already talked about the, like, I will do what queens do. I will rule Slash, now we rule Khaleesi moment. We've talked about boy laughing and what we think that means. Kirsch is dribbling milk. Adam is also there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, Dame Sylvia is being put in her place, and the kids are in charge. Anything else you want to say?

[Rob Mahoney]

If the reason for the cage is just to have the visual, I'm still here for it. I think it's very compelling. I think the way it's. I think the circular nature of the cell that allows the camera to kind of pan around and find everybody is really compelling stuff. And we should say boy, among everything else that's going on with him tied in a very Christ like sort of way for some reason. I don't know what the lost boy's relationship to religion is. We haven't really explored any of that this season. But him and his positioning, I think ultimately, Kirschwich, we already talked about. I love him just sitting up on the high shelf, dribbling out. Very, very good. And also, I don't understand with Morrow, who is both in chains and has the Pringles can situation, can he not just T1000 his way out of that thing? We've seen it be a giant spike. We've seen it be a blowtorch. Like, would that really contain him?

[Mallory Rubin]

The equivalent of the collars in Stranger Things or something like. It's like a power suppressor. I have to assume otherwise. Yeah. How could he not just cut right through it?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's just cutting off the wi fi.

[Joanna Robinson]

An enticing. Like an enticing season two setup to have Morrow in the cage with them. Right. They've been at odds all season, but now he's on team, the kids should not be in charge. Yeah, exactly.

[Rob Mahoney]

On the. On the parallel of this, too. When the kids are in the cage, I just want to give particular shout out to Smee, who's sort of like hiding in the back, hands behind his back, leaning against the cage, standing on the sides of his feet in a.

[Mallory Rubin]

Way that Just gold star work from all of them. Some incredible posts.

[Rob Mahoney]

Really great. Oh, Nibs is over it.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're all great. Like, I thought that the, the look on Slightly's face when he hit Morrow in the face in the lab was like, yeah, chilling. Scary. Yeah. I mean, obviously a really good horror episode in general, but that was great. I thought, Rob, when you noted that boy was, you know, legs spread, you were going to ask the really important question, which is, did anybody. Did we get a change of clothes? We know he pissed himself. He said it.

[Rob Mahoney]

He did.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everyone has to sit within a couple feet of him.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

As he man spreads reeking of piss.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks for asking important questions as always, Melanie.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Terrible.

[Rob Mahoney]

A man who thought he's changed and saved the world being strung up. Christ. Like in his own piss. I mean, look, it sounds about right for Boy Cavalier.

[Joanna Robinson]

That sounds great. Here's my closing question for you. Before we get to sort of like any sort of lingering season two thoughts that we might have, Here comes the Pearl Jam. Rob and I were recently talking to Bill about the use of Pearl Jam over on Task and we were like, wow, this is so rare for Pearl Jam to be used in a TV show. But then of course, it was also used in the Last of Us quite memorably earlier this year. So my question is, do we need to retire the. It's rare to use Pearl Jam in a TV show. Does Eddie vet, like, are there gambling deaths involved? Like, what's, what's. What's going on here that all of a sudden the floodgates are open for Pearl Jam to up? Obviously we've had some great needle drops all season. The Pearl, the Animal, Pearl Jam needle drop, an especially great one. Any other ones that like. We've talked about a few this season, but just wondering if you wanted to shout out any in particular or have a favorite one that closed out a particular episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's hard to beat the Godsmack. For me, the into the Sheep's Eye Godsmack needle drop at the end was fantastic. But look, as far as the Pearl Jam stuff goes, I don't think it has to be gambling debt. Sometimes you just want a second lake house or something, you know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's always new. You know, part of being incredibly wealthy is apparently that you just find new and exciting things to spend money on. Some of us, you know, build robots or buy synthetic arms. Some of us, you know, just want to subsidize your latest vacation.

[Mallory Rubin]

A Pearl Jam song opens every single episode of the Bill Simmons podcast. So I Have never considered Pearl Jam needle drops rare, but it is a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Whole thing where you have to, like, have a conversation with them. And I just think it's very interesting that. Yeah, get Eddie better that boat. That's fine. I'm down with it.

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's a question. If someone were to sample, say, this podcast, you know, just, like, excerpt, like, a little clip of us say, it's like playing on a TV in the background of Alien Earth Season 2 for some reason. Do podcasts incur the same royalties that say Pearl Jam tracks do? Like, are we in line for a big payday if someone wants us as background talking heads on something?

[Joanna Robinson]

Rob, do you want a boat? Do you have boating debts?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, actually, I don't want a boat. Look, the rule of thumb stands. You don't want to be the guy with the boat. You want the friend with the boat. So if one of you would like a boat, I would love that for us.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't even go to the eye doctor. I can't be trusted to maintain a boat. Get out of here. But I'll happily join you guys if you're invited. On a yacht. That sounds lovely, Mallory.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you have a needle drop that you want to call out? Other than this Pearl Jam moment that.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have, I mean, five against torture, from me to you. You know, ending this episode, very good. Obviously, I. I liked the bookends of this. All of the closing needle drops were good, but I did really. I liked the Mob rules, Black Sabbath at the beginning. Close the City, Tell the people that Something's Coming to Call. That was good. I enjoyed that. The jeans addiction was good. That was, like, the middle of the season. They've all been pretty good.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was. Yeah, I liked the Smashing Pumpkins also. Chair props. Smashing Pumpkins? I think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Holly's been asked a couple times, like, sort of why these particular kinds of songs. And he was like. He was basically saying. He's basically said in a couple different interviews, like, he wants this show to feel like arena rock. Like, he's, like. Wants it to feel big and, like, epic, and so that's why he went with these songs.

[Rob Mahoney]

Then why did he pick alt rock? Would be my question. This is all straight off of, like, when I was growing up in the Dallas area. 102.1 the edge, like, the. Like, very slightly off alt rock station. This is all straight out of circulation as far as I'm concerned. So I think if we're gonna do arena, we could go bigger. You know, there's different scales, there's different there's different realms for this stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who are you picking then, Rob, for your arena rock that's better than Metallica and Pearl Jam.

[Rob Mahoney]

Pearl Jam and Metallica. Absolutely Smashing Pumpkins. Borderline tool is definitely not arena rod. Like we're two prognostic and two alts to be in full arena mode in my, in my humble opinion. But you know, no, Holly's the author. What can I say?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean it was ultimately a show where arena rock ambitions. But the jail cell was clearly built to hold like the mold scrubber if he showed up late for work and not the hybrid. So it feels right. I think that mix of needle drops spot on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Now I would really love a season two just like the mold scrubber in the, in the birdcage or like they have to scrub the birdcage too. So, you know, looking to create the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Bath you've always dreamed of without all the hassle. The Home Depot makes it easier. Shop fully styled rooms and curated collections.

[Timothy Oliphant]

To bring your vision to life. Use digital tools to preview flooring and.

[Rob Mahoney]

Finishes in your space. And get everything you need from tubs.

[Timothy Oliphant]

To tile delivered fast and priced right. The Home Depot dream baths built here.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. Speaking of looking ahead to season two, other than the shambling corpse of Arthur Sylvia, what are you looking forward to in season two? Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh my God, I'm excited for season two. I think I was more critical of every single scene in this episode. Maybe I anticipated being when we started the pod, but I like this season a lot and I, I'm looking forward to being back with these characters and to seeing what, what Noah Hawley has on his mind and is most interested in continuing to do. I think at the end of the day we brought our xenomorph centric expectations. But the promise of the show was there on that first like not a crawl, but opening crawl that doesn't crawl, whatever that's called. Just words, I guess. You know the triple race, right. Cyborgs since and it's. It's been a long week. It's only Tuesday.

[Joanna Robinson]

The girl.

[Mallory Rubin]

If it doesn't crawl, I don't know, you know, the, the, the, the three way race. Cyborgs, synths and, and hybrids and like. Yeah, the show was about that quite a bit and I'm, I'm interested in that. Will that continue to feel like an alien story? I think I'm very excited to see what flora fauna does in season two. Obviously. Can't wait to be back with the, the eyeball jockey. How I'm interested to see like how. What? The extent of Wendy's control over the Xenomorphs is like, you know, Xeno long. That bond was one thing. Is that xenomorph controlling the little baby? Is Wendy like what. What level of. Of puppeteering are we going to see for Wendy? There's. But mostly I'm excited for the eyeball jockey to go into Boy Cavalier's face at some point. I don't want Boy to be out of the show. But I just can't wait to see that. Truly can't wait to see that. Though it will mean the end of Arthur. So that's tough. I guess I'll have to be patient. I don't want to say goodbye to Arthur yet. I'd like to see Dave Sylvia die. You know. That would be fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

She absolutely deserves to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Maybe Arthur will get to kill her. That would be kind of exciting, don't you think? What just deserves in a horrifying way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wife. I'm back. You barely talk to me or acknowledge me. So you don't recognize anything different about my chest cavity or my face right now. But I hear.

[Joanna Robinson]

I need you to do that. I need you to do that in a like garbled tendrils manipulating.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You have to wait. You have to wait till season two. I assume that's your pick to hear. To hear it speak. But yeah, just, you know, Arthur, like pour the Aztecs. We know the eyeball jockey and the Aztecs can work in harmony. The blood works. Let's sprinkle some of those in a Dame Sylvia beverage and go about our day.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I mean if the eyeball jockey and the Aztecs can work together. But the eyeball jockey and the Xenomorph are kind of like mortal enemies. It seemed like they had some history from their run in earlier this season. I once again point you in the direction of the fact that the apple jockey is now the hero. Because the Xenomorph is working in support servitude of some hybrid creations that seem a little scary. If you're asking me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Other notes. Flora, fauna can fucking move. The way it was crawling across that room. Did not expect it. I really thought we were in Venus Flytrap territory. The shimmy was awful in a great way. I am looking forward to one. As Mal kind of alluded to. What are the rules with the Xeno at this point? How trainable are they? Are they sleeping in a crate? Are they on the bed? What is it that Wendy Marcy is willing to allow in terms of her household?

[Joanna Robinson]

This is dog language, dog owner language.

[Rob Mahoney]

For these creatures that she considers to be benevolent but is basically treating servants and pets. Don't know what's going on with that as of yet. I look forward to finding out more. Also, what the future of dissension among the hybrids looks like is something that I hope we get into in season two. And maybe that's an area where Curly ends up coming full circle. Like she's the least bought in in terms of the rest of this gang. Like maybe she is the dissenter again, but in a way that feels more restrained, feels more like a voice of reason relative to all these other kids who are kind of getting high on their own supply.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would say other than the adventure of I Jockey, which is my number one priority, I would say the potential buddy cop energy of Morrow and Kirsch on the same side having to grudgingly work together is that might be reason.

[Rob Mahoney]

Alone for that fight to not have ended in anyone's death. Like, just delicious. It is pretty juicy. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just Tim and Babu just, like chopping it up for a season. I would love to see it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sign me up.

[Rob Mahoney]

Spin off waiting to happen, even if it doesn't happen in season two.

[Joanna Robinson]

Speaking of Tim Oliphant, let us go now to, I don't know, the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. It's our conversation with the absolutely charmed. Dripping with charm. Timothy Oliphant. Can I start by asking you the most important question I think that we have on our minds here?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Let's hear it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is Kirsch okay? Is he okay?

[Timothy Oliphant]

This is. This is. We're. We are talking. I haven't seen it. You're. We're pre. We're talking Post. Episode 8.

[Rob Mahoney]

Post.

[Joanna Robinson]

Finale. Finale.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah. Well, I mean, they've inquired about my availability, so I assume that as a positive outlook. I'm taking that as a positive outlook.

[Mallory Rubin]

Look, it's not official confirmation, but it's an encouraging sign, I think.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Exactly. This is not official. That's exactly right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I'm. I'm going with what you said, okay?

[Joanna Robinson]

As. As your lawyer, Mallory is looking out for you. So I. That's right.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're. We're going to engage solely in hyp future hypotheticals. You know, nothing.

[Timothy Oliphant]

But in my. In my fantasy world, in my fantasy life, for significant pay raise. He's fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mine. Ah.

[Mallory Rubin]

He says as the golf carts drive behind him.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know, I know.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Just waving. Just waving to some of the locals. You know, we've been here for a week. We've gotten to know people. You know what I mean? We've been here for a week.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's beautiful. It's wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

And you're like, with a better pay rise, maybe two weeks next year in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kentucket, you know, the whole summer, the entire fall. Right. Here's, I think, the real question that we can't say for sure what the future holds for Kirsch in terms of.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Joanna.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Joanna. She led with the. Not the real question. That's good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think you'll find that that was the. That was, in fact, the real question. This is not the real question. That's the whole game. You know, if. If Kirsch is. It's okay. Kirsch is okay. You know, we're going to fix the back. We're going to get into a little, like, a little spring training. Best shape of my life mode for Kirsch. You know, prepping for a new season.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do we need to pair? It's a flesh rehabbing the back. It's a flesh wound. It's a. It's a flood. It's a serious flesh wound.

[Timothy Oliphant]

It's a non flesh one. It's a non flesh.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a non skeletal flesh. Skeletal flesh.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Exactly.

[Mallory Rubin]

As we look to restore, repair, rehab, revive, what are we thinking on the hair. On the hair care front? Will the back repair come with a new hairstyle for Kirsch, or are there any. Browse eternal.

[Timothy Oliphant]

First of all, let me give you credit for prefacing this question appropriately. This is the real question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I'm gonna be honest with you. I. I don't have an answer, but I thought of it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Timothy Oliphant]

How much do I got? Wiggle room. Do I got some wiggle room to come back with? Like, oh, look at that. Changed up the do. Is there. Is Kirsch more. Is Kirsch. Like, is he. Is he. Is that the look and we're just committed, or is there like this. He's like a Lady Gaga, you know? I mean, like, you don't know what you're gonna get.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Timothy Oliphant]

You know, I mean, because we didn't make a lot of costume changes season one, but that doesn't mean we can't go, you know, oh, hello. Like, it's season two. Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

So significant, significant pay rise for the return of Kirsch. And also, Tim doesn't have to bleach his hair anymore. Yeah.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Forgive me, by the way. I was saying. I was trying to say the word raise. If I said rise, that's fine, but I Was saying significant pay raise.

[Joanna Robinson]

British about it. I think that's what the Brits say.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I want to pay rise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, pay rise. I think they say that anyway. Do they? Here's. I think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Here's. Give it a really important question. More effective, you know, stick it.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah, I like it. I've never heard it but I like it sounds.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can you take us behind the scenes of the. Of the milking process? When you are spitting out milk covered in milk, what is that substance? How was that for you? Tell us. Take us all through it.

[Timothy Oliphant]

First of all, I appreciate you guys starting with all the hard hitting questions and just getting right to the thick of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're thoughtful people.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Here is my recollection of the stuff I think is the technical term.

[Rob Mahoney]

One.

[Timothy Oliphant]

You know, I've said this before but you know a group of actors, you know there's a murder of crows and there's like it's a complaint of actors. So I prefaced the answer with didn't enjoy. Was sticky. Not. I feel like it's improved though. This stuff is improved. You know, I've been doing this for a long time and I feel like they've made some small improvements over the years. Maybe a little less sticky. Doesn't taste bad, but interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Timothy Oliphant]

No, I, I think it's a little sugary. Kind of deal. Doesn't taste bad. And it. But here's what I do recall which is when we made the choice to be upside down and and then I say give me more stuff because this is going to look great. You know, I was pretty confident. I was like, oh, I'm a little, I'm up here looking down and I'm like this plays. This is going to look awesome. Also terribly awful. Going up the nose and into the eyes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not good.

[Timothy Oliphant]

But that ladies is the sacrifice I'm willing to make for good solid entertainment.

[Joanna Robinson]

For your art. Yeah, for your art.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah. I said solid entertainment. But of course that's the same thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's all the same thing. I mean now that we know that this is basically like a liquid marshmallow topping for a snow cone or something. I so it sounds actually like a kind of fun day. Fun day at the office.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Well, I will say if I have a take a moment. Did you see the dog there?

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

You froze for a second. You froze for a second.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Oh no. Really?

[Mallory Rubin]

This is tragic.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hold on.

[Mallory Rubin]

We missed the dog.

[Timothy Oliphant]

It's fine. It's own celebrity on Nantucket. But do we see the dog down there? Yes, we see a dog down the walkway.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Now we do. Yeah, now we do.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Okay. He is. I know I'm here to promote Alien Earth, and I want to. We want to stay on Nuts with the subject, but that he's one of the cast members of the Five Star Weekend with Jennifer Garner. But I think that dog is mostly stealing the show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my goodness.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I think that the authorities will be looking for that dog because he's stealing it. Okay, let me just have a moment of sincerity, if I may say, because that was a day with Babu, and every day I got to work with Babu was no disrespect to the rest of the cast. Everyone's wonderful. He was particularly lovely and thrilling to work with. And I just can't say enough about that man's work and the man in general. So it was a great day on set, even with the stuff up my nose and my eyes.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're happy to take a pivot to sincerity because I've heard you talk a couple times about how you read what's on the page, but then when you go in to work with your fellow actors, it really has a lot to do with your interaction with them on set. And I'm curious, your scenes with Babu, the Moro Kirsch stuff, was so compelling to us. What was it about working with Babu? What. What did he sort of bring out in you? And then also, what is it about Morrow that sets Kirsch on edge so much?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Let me just start with. Not that Noah needs another compliment, but those characters, those two characters from the jump were like, oh, these are gonna be great characters. I do remember reading on the page, Noah sent me the script, told me to look at Morrow, but I do even remember saying, talk to. Excuse me, asked me to look for Kirsch. And I, I did take a beat when we had our first follow up conversation. Say, talk to me about Maura, because that also looks like a juicy little nugget of a role. And so I want to say, one, it's on the page. And two, you know, they're active, they have secrets, they're scared. They have all these things that are, you know, so appealing to play and then to not have to worry about playing because it's taken care of. And then there's just Baboo, which is like, you know, one, I like, I experienced what everyone's experience. I experienced on set what everyone's experiencing now watching the show. The, who the fuck is this guy and why have I never heard of him? And like, you know, it is a. It doesn't happen very often as you guys know when you watch something and you're meeting both the actor and this riveting character and performance and an actor all at once. And usually it's like, oh, here's this incredible performance and this credible actor done by this person that we'd seen three or four times. And now, wow, they've hit it out of the park. But when it happens at hello, it is so special for. For an audience. I mean, America, to some degree, had that with McShane and Deadwood. Like, who the fuck is this guy? And then who is this character? Like, it was the best. It just. It's, you know, it's the one and one is three kind of experience, right? And then. And then putting that aside. So I experienced that on set. I was like, you know, at hello, I just saw what a force he was. Was. And what command he had of the craft. And, you know, it's that wonderful experience where he's like, I can't wait to work with him. And I'm a little nervous about being blown off the screen. And so, you know, we're going to play this little game. You know, we're going to. We're going to throw the ball back and forth, and I'm going to try to throw him some curveballs and see if he catches them. And at the same time, I'm going to be really alert because I might be the person who's in trouble here, just working with another actor of that caliber. And that is a very exciting day. It's a fun day on the set when you get to work with people like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's awesome. I'm gonna stick with the. The baseball comp for a minute and build off the curveball. Because I think something that we really loved with Kirsch in general is that, like, you never know when you're getting the high heat. You never know when you're getting the backdoor slider. Like, you don't really know what's coming, when and why. And that. That unpredictability paired actually with some predictability. And then, like, putting us in the position of the audience is consistently like. Like feeling like we understood the character. But there was always a degree of mystique, and we were trying to parse the motive. And so another relationship in addition to Kirsch and Morrow that we really like, were struck by was. Was Kirsch and Isaac. And maybe that's a way for you to take us through that relationship and just in general into Kirsch's psyche for a minute. Like, does he care did he care about Isaac? Because in a moment, like Isaac choosing his name, it felt to me in real time like there was an earnest note of pride and encouragement on Kirsch's behalf, but then he's dispassionately watching what is unfolding on the tablet and letting it happen. So what is. What is Kirsch's stance on. On Isaac as a assistant, a boy who's trying to become a man, and just in general, the nature of a relationship that in many ways is very human.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Okay, Mallory, prepare to be disappointed. I don't. I just don't know. I. I am guilty and take this with a grain of salt, but I. It's something pretty much. It's pretty true, which is. I really don't know. And to some degree, I don't care in terms of when I show up on set as an actor. Yeah, I mean. I mean that because I firmly believe in this idea of the audience only knows what you tell them, and they will attribute your behavior to whatever it is you tell them. And so I know when I'm shooting that scene with Kit, who I enjoyed thoroughly because he was so willing to mix it up and was so there, like the baseball metaphor, you know, you could just throw a lot of fastballs and he would catch that kind of thing. But I look at it when I show up on set, forgive me, I sound like an actor. I'm not a big fan of them, I'll be honest with you. But I show up thinking, like, well, what's this scene? What am I doing? And then what's already. Like we talked about before? What's already taken care of? And what do you.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Is the most either interesting thing that you can bring that's maybe not available on the page. Where's the contradiction? And I thought one of the fun things that happened a lot, both with. Working on that, with those things with Isaac and with some of the others, was deciding that I could just be charmed by them deciding that I could be. See how charmed I could be. See, at times like. Like, if I could just decide they're dorks and just decide, you know, that you're essentially a parent. And. And you can be like, roll your eyes. Like, you know, that when. When. When Adarsh says, you know, everybody needs friends, you know, you can decide if it. If it's what the. Happens in the moment, that. That sounds so dumb. You know, I mean, like, you just sound like an idiot, you know, and why not, right? Like, why not? And I was always a fun game and, and this also is a testament to Noah that I thought, I have a lot of room here because I could be. I can be totally engaged in Isaac and really believe, like, look at him, he's out there exploring, he's trying, he's. He's at a stage of development that he should be at. Right? Kids, when they're young, they. They come up with little. They want to change their name. That's all kids. And. Right. And it happens in like. And I'm like, oh, this is, this is where he is. And I'm here to support this and I'm just gonna be. Lean into how proud I am of this moment. But I know that if Noah wants to say I just did that because he's getting. Giving me what I want, or I can, he can. Noah can decide later that when he dies that my character sheds a tear because he genuinely loved him. And I thought I had a lot of room. And it was one of the things that was so much fun to play a non human character, but felt like I had so much room to explore. The emotional life of a non human character was a ton of fun. Forgive me if I went on too long about that. I really don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not at all.

[Mallory Rubin]

These are two and a half hour podcasts. As you know, we love lines.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm here to film.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I'm here to film. Okay, I'll just keep going. I just keep going. But, you know, there's a thing like, I was literally on set yesterday and I did this, doing this scene, and the director came up and said, just reminded me that I haven't talked to this. My character hadn't talked to this other character in like 15 years. And that was the note. And she left. And I might have mumbled, that does nothing for me because. Because what is. You know what I mean? Like, I know that if I'm having dinner with my wife and someone says, oh, the reason they're acting like that is because they've been married for 34 years, people will be like, oh, that makes sense. But if someone went over to the waiter and said they just met two days ago, the waiter would say, oh, that makes sense, right? So that. There lies my. That's the end of my spiel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I ask you a question then? What is the opposite of that? What is something a director can say to you that is the most helpful? That is the opposite of these characters haven't seen each other for 15 years.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Well, the smartest answer, which is somewhat true, is faster, slower, happier. I mean, those, those are very Useful. Pick up the pace. Pick up the cues. Those are like, oh, gotcha. Those are. You know, it's just very. The other thing, that really doesn't happen that much, but it's sort of. I feel sometimes the job of the actor to translate a note to. Is, like, actual actions. Like, if the director comes up and says this passage right here, you're flirting. That's like, flirt there. Everybody. I know how to flirt. Like, so it doesn't matter what the words are. If the pat. If she. If the director is like. Like, on this thing you're confiding, then I'm like, I got it right. Like, roll it. And I'll. I'll lean in and confide someone. Those are very actable. Those are so useful. Or, you know, you're doing something, you know, does. But those aren't up on set.

[Joanna Robinson]

Does Kirsch know how to flirt? That's just a. An important question I have for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think so.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I think so. I. I sort of chose that. I. Yeah, I. When I took the job, I thought, like, I do. I try to, like, don't get seduced by the fact that he's not human. Your job is to show up and. And people lean in because they. Because they want to see behavior, right? They want to see. I mean, that's the theory, right? Every. People want to see behavior, they want to see spontaneity, and they want to see drama. And that's what drama is. So you have to, like. So all I could do is bring. I was like, you know, we dressed it up. I realize I'm doing something right. You know, I do know. I'm aware that I'm. I'm doing something. And I spent. I worked really hard to try to come up with something at. Hello. An economical, superficial way to say he does seem normal. And. And then you work on that really hard so that hopefully when people watch it, they say he just seems like he's. You know, that it doesn't seem like you're doing anything. So there's that part. And then the other part is just to bring yourself. Bring your. So be available to. Within the scene that you're just present and available to. Having the. A spontaneous response to what the others are doing. And that's, you know, so bring yourself to the job. Otherwise. Otherwise, he doesn't need me. He just hire anybody.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, so on that front, bringing yourself to the job. Wasn't sure if we'd have the courage to ask this, but you told us you're familiar with our coverage and so you've probably heard us in a way that is deeply embarrassing for all three participants of this conversation right now. Heard us talk about Kirsch. He's got the signature hip waggle when he walks. How much of that was your decision? You're like, why would Kirsch not walk? Like he's got a revolver on the hip. I'm putting some sass into this synth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I wasn't, by the way. Have listened, enjoyed. Didn't hear that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, well, now you know.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Now you know, that's a surprise to me. And quite frankly, I didn't know that's what I was doing. But I'm going to take your word for it. Well, I don't know. I mean, I just kept. I don't know. I showed up on set, we didn't rehearse. Noah said, this is. He said it was, you know, I got something for you. We talked about the hair. And he said. Said. He said, great, I showed up with the hair. He said, you should do the eyebrows as well. I was like, okay. He's basically telling me, you know what my acting teacher told me? Right. Commit. Gotta commit. And. And then we just showed up on set and started shooting. And I did what? You know, we had no pre. We had no conversations prior to me showing up on this. We had conversations about the material. We had conversations about the tone. Right. And we had. Otherwise, it was just sort of a gut instinct of what I think he's asking me to show up and bring. And I just started doing more or less what you see there. Now, keep in mind, take to take. I try. There's. I'm sure there's versions where there was completely different tones and responses or humor or take to take. And he choose the one. He wants the wiggle in the hips. I don't remember.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's walking with attitude, you know, he's.

[Joanna Robinson]

Walking with attitude, with sass. He's sassy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Sassy. Sassy Kirsch, for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Look, we're. Let me tell you something. I'm in show business.

[Mallory Rubin]

There you go.

[Timothy Oliphant]

And I'm pretty sure with most of these gigs, you know, you don't want to lose. You know, the people want some entertainment. That's all I know. And as long as I'm not trying to force a square peg through a round hole, you know, I'm guilty of. I'm not unawares. But I didn't know I was doing that much wiggling.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, you're sharing a number of scenes with a man who's Walking around barefoot and putting his feet up on tables and stuff. You know, you gotta.

[Joanna Robinson]

You gotta do. You gotta do what you gotta do.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Right? Right? You gotta.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can we, can we. Can we ask you about, about Kirsch and, and the shoeless wonder boy cavalier.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Like, let's hear it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Does, does he hate him?

[Joanna Robinson]

Would he really enjoy throwing him to the monsters? Is he programmed to protect him? What's his. What's that energy?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Okay, so at the risk of repeating myself, I don't know. But here's. I mean, I don't. Here's. But in sincerity, here's what I do know. I do know that we were playing the sandbox. We were playing in the assumption we were. We. We brought to the table was that he would do no harm to his. The person who created.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Timothy Oliphant]

And so, but once you understand that that is the problem, there's two. There's two stricts to put at. The big fear that many people have about artificial intelligence is whether they're here to help us, whether it's here to help us or destroy us. And I guess the big quandary is, is will it help? The best way to help us is will it decide that the best way to help us is to destroy this? Right? That's. That's the big concern. Right? Like, I'm, I, I can, I can help. I like the idea. And I brought this up with Noah, which is, you know, there's a version of this where he's saying, you know, I can take care of your problems, but you might not like the answer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Right. So. But I know, because there's a continuing story. I know if we ever do get to that moment, we're not getting to it right away because it's the way the medium works. So I thought the game that I would lean into was, you can't hurt this guy. But that doesn't mean you can't think about it, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

You.

[Timothy Oliphant]

It doesn't mean you can't inherit. I'm no dummy. I've seen enough TV and movies where. And not to mention a little bit about Freud. No. Tiny, tiny, tiny bit. And most people want to destroy their fathers, right? The boys want to kill their fathers. So that it's got to be the sandbox that we're also playing in. That guy created me. And so usually that's. Usually that's what's on the mind. You wake up every day. He wakes up every day, and the first thing he thinks is, he like to kill. He'd like to kill his master, but he can't and so on we go with. We put all that energy into other things that seemed like there was a lot of fun there to play.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you're thinking about those, like, oh, go ahead.

[Timothy Oliphant]

No, go ahead. No, I mean. I mean, the other part of my job, right, is you're just looking. You're looking for the conflict, right? You're looking for the. You're looking for what's the obstacle. You're looking for where's the drama? And so nine times out of 10, that's a good place to look. Is that Elmore Leonard once said to me that a great scene was, in every great scene, someone's either about to get fucked or someone's about to get fucked. And if both those things are happening, you've got a really great scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

Powerful.

[Timothy Oliphant]

And I also know that he said, always, when in doubt, keep it simple, stupid. So, you know, I tend to walk onto the set thinking, okay, who here is about to get fucked in this scene? Right? Look for it. Look for the opportunity.

[Joanna Robinson]

So would you say the biggest uniting force between Raelyn Givens and Kirsch is daddy issues? Are they bonded by their mutual daddy issues?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah, there's always been daddy issues in almost every jaw, every character. I mean, I don't think most just. I mean, that's. We're all. That's the same story. We're all telling the same stories, right? Listen, I'm not making this up. I remember showing up on the set of Deadwood and Milch said, let me tell you this. This man wakes up every morning and he wants to kill his father. That's. That's the first thing he wants to do is get up in the morning, and first thing that he's got to do is go kill his father. But he can't. His father's already dead. So he's going to take all that rage and he's going to put it towards whatever's on the docket that day, and he's going to put all that rage and energy and just transfer it to something, make something positive out of it. And it's those kinds of men that made this country great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow. What a. What an illuminating glimpse into the psyche there. Would. Would Seth Bullock, Raylan Givens, or Cobb Vance be best equipped to thrive in the alien Earth universe?

[Timothy Oliphant]

Well, I'm gonna. I mean. I mean, the. The temperament. I'm not. I'm not. By the way, how different are they willing to smell another. I mean, I think Cobb. I think Cobb's got a better gun. So we'll Give him an edge.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, he's also in a bacta tank though. And I'm gonna tee up my co host here for truly the most important moment of the conversation.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Let's go. Now we're getting to the hard hitting stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're just, we're doing something I believe the kids call this telling on yourself. And now we've done this twice in this podcast, but we have a running, a running countdown on the clock that Joanna maintains for the pod. Joanna. Oh, I, I would like to invite you to share this now with tim.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's been 1,360 days since we last saw a Cobb van and that's upsetting to us and I've heard, you know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Too long.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's too long.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Well, let me say that one. The, the flip side of that is you telling me that count is so lovely and so nice to me, so I just want to say no, that's not nothing. I appreciate it. That means a lot. Is there, is there a question?

[Joanna Robinson]

Is there a question? Yeah, yeah. Is there a question?

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you know it had been that many days since we saw Cobb Van and what are you going to do about it?

[Joanna Robinson]

I've heard a rumor that there's a LEGO set coming out, a Cobb Van Lego set coming out. And I just want to know, are we ever outside of Lego form, ever going to see him again?

[Timothy Oliphant]

I'm sure you understand that even if I knew the answer to that question, I couldn't answer until someone gives me permission. There's like. But. And I'm not saying there is an answer, but I just obviously, you know, if I say I don't know, I can't pretend that I might not be lying. I can only tell you that.

[Rob Mahoney]

I.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Just want to make sure that our relationship is clarity. You know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Trust amongst us.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I can tell you it means a great deal.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is just a. I was gonna say this is a private conversation between the three of us and all of Nantucket. No one else is listening. It's just you, Mallory, celebrity dog, Nantucket, the island.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah, just a celebrity dog. The dog team is bet. The dog's name is Ben. You can look him up on his IMDb page. Good old Ben flies first class.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow. Does Ben know when we'll next see Cobb? Vance? Does Ben.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, does Ben know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe we should talk to Ben.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I may or may not be talking to Ben about a two hander. I mean people, people love Star wars, people love pets.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sign us up.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I, I can only tell you I, I will say this. I had a ball. I've only done two episodes of, you know, I don't know how many countless episodes they've done of those shows. And I showed up for two of them. And they were very, both very, very special experiences. And those guys know that, that. Let me tell you that I have, I am guilty of sending Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni a text that said just reminder that neither me or Cobb Vance are dead.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you want to.

[Timothy Oliphant]

I just every now and then I send them a text and say, guys, just, just a subtle, just. I'm going to give you a little reminder that neither, neither one of us, both of us so far, alive and well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Now you have a countdown.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you want to say, send John and Dave the countdown.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Give me the number again.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's 1,000, 1,360 days.

[Timothy Oliphant]

Yeah, they, they will be receiving a text to say, guys, just a friendly reminder. It's been 1360 days since people have seen. Since they're incredible. And if we, if we ever, if we ever get a little something going, you'll. We'll. We'll circle back and have this conversation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sounds good. Enjoy Nantucket.

[Timothy Oliphant]

You guys are the best. Thank you for doing this. I appreciate you. I really, I appreciate you guys, you know, that we don't do this, you know, for nothing. It's nice when you do something that reaches an audience and it feels like people are enjoying it. And listening to you guys talk about it puts a smile on my face. So thanks very much. I appreciate it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks, Tim.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you.

[Timothy Oliphant]

All right, thank you. You guys be well.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, that does it. Rob Mahoney, thank you so much for joining us for this entire alien, for covering for me when I was gone, for staying with us for the entirety of the alien Earth run. I know this is a show you really wanted to cover. I'm so glad you got to cover it with us. Thank you for being here. You're the best.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you for letting me tag along. This has been a true privilege, the adventure of a lifetime. Thank you for waiting. I don't know. At least ankle deep in the milk together. I feel like we seen and heard and experienced a lot together.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are there crabs in there ankle deep milk?

[Rob Mahoney]

I hope not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Now you're just talking seafood chowder at this point.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay. Now you have my attention. Yeah, now we're talking.

[Joanna Robinson]

Extremely on brand. Mallory Rubin, the best always. Thank you to Jesse Lopez to work on this episode. To John Richter, as always, to Arjuna Rinka Powell, who has just been doing a lot of work for us with us recently. Just absolutely crushing it. Always Arjuna and Joni at dinner on the Social for making sure that all of our most embarrassing facial reactions make it onto the grid on Instagram. We will be back with more. I will back with you, Rob over on Prestige and you, Mallory, here on House of Arn. Who knows when we three shall meet again, but I hope it's soon. And thank you all for listening.

[Mallory Rubin]

Bye.

[Joanna Robinson]

It.