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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today to talk about my favorite season of my favorite television show ever. It's Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how you doing?
- [00:18]
B
We're talking about Band Candy. I'm great.
- [00:20]
A
What could be better? It's Buffy season three time Buffy Vampire Slayer season three. We're going to be going through half the season today, including the incredibly important episode band can. You're going to get all of Mallory's horniest takes on band Candy. It's going to be fantastic. We're going to get to all of that after this.
- [00:39]
B
Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams, and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their active brand. Your personal best YPB leggings are made with buttery soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places. And common Abercrombie's viral curve love fit designed to eliminate waist gap. Paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts, it's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new year feeling your personal best. Shop Active by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores.
- [01:10]
A
Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip hop. We'll remind you of your childhood without making you feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese. Best thing ever. All right, Mallory, before we have the pleasure, the joy, the thrill of our life to talk about Buffy Vampire Slayer Season 3, quick programming reminders. What do we have coming up? We've got the second half of Buffy Vampire Season 3. That's important. That's right.
- [01:49]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [01:50]
A
We've got our hypedraft in person. Sean Fennesee will be back. Rob Mahoney's joining us this year. It's gonna be really, really exciting. We're doing that in person, in the studio, and then I'm gonna be in LA for several weeks. Why, Mallory?
- [02:07]
B
Because you can't bear to be away from me.
- [02:08]
A
True.
- [02:09]
B
And also because we're going back to Westeros.
- [02:11]
A
We're heading back to Westeros.
- [02:13]
B
Is here. We love Dunk and Egg. It's Dunk and Egg time at last. And we will be doing our House of Ark deep dives together in person. We will also be reuniting with the third head of the dragon, Christopher Ryan, for Talk the Thrones on Sunday nights. Can't fucking wait.
- [02:27]
A
It's so exciting. I have watched some of the show. It is so good. I was so nervous. It is so good. I'm so excited to spend weeks and weeks talking about Westeros with you. Again, nothing. Love more nothing. I love doing more. Genuinely same while being in the same space and holding your hand and staring into your eyes. Okay, listen also so that's a lot that's going on, Mal. How can folks keep track of everything that's happening?
- [02:50]
B
Keep it simple. Follow the Pod. Why not follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast? You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify. You can also see full video episodes on the Ringerverse YouTube channel and follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, et cetera. While you're at it, send us your emails. Send us your emails on Buff Season 3, episodes 13 through 22 for next week's pod. Send us your 2026 hype thoughts. What are you excited for? And obviously send us your Night of the Seven Kingdoms thoughts and then anything else that's coming in the next few months. Wonder man, we're not that far away from Project Hail Mary. It's all happening. It's going to be a big year. So we want to hear from you hobbits and dragons.
- [03:30]
A
Gmail.com here's the Buffy rewatch split as as Mallory pointed out today, we're talking about episodes one through 12 of season three. Anne is a season premiere, and we're ending on Helpless. That's where we decided to split this season because it is an incredibly important episode, which we will be talking about at length. So what are we talking about today? And Dead Man's Party Faith, Hope and Trick Beauty and the Beast Homecoming Band Candy Revelations Lovers Walk, Spikes Back Baby the Wish, Anya's Here Amends Gingerbread and Helpless. Like just an iconic run of episodes of television and matched only I think, by the back half of the season. It's just an absolutely incredible season of television. Just to give folks a taste, like, really quickly off the bat, Mallory, you know you've watched three seasons of Buffy, Vampire Slayer so far. You don't have to rank them or anything like that. But like, how are you feeling about season three? Maybe compare to season one and two? And like, what was your experience so far?
- [04:32]
B
Oh, I adore season three. This is. I don't mind Rankin. Three, two, one. Yeah, Pretty easy for me, actually.
- [04:39]
A
Yeah.
- [04:41]
B
And three and two are clustered pretty closely together and then obviously there's a dip to 1. Season 3 is my favorite so far. I think this is an I can't wait to do the second POD and just be able to talk about the entire season, you know, in its totality. We'll, we'll exercise obviously some restraint today in case anybody is going to save the second pod for their first watch of those episodes. I think we'll allude to some of the things that are coming in the back half, but we won't get into too many particulars, but, you know, start to finish. I, I, I love this season. I think like two of my least favorite episodes in the run are actually probably the first two, Anne and Dead Man's Party, and actually probably three of the first four, Beauty and the Beast. I think outside of those three, like the rest of the episodes in the, in the 12 we're talking about today are like amazing.
- [05:22]
A
Were you watching those threes? And you're like, oh no. Joanna loves the season of television. What's happening here? Not at all.
- [05:27]
B
Because even inside of those as well as will, I think come up not only in the like opening big picture discussion that we have today, but certainly in some of the category picks, even in the relatively speaking slightly less strong episodes, there were still really, really important, meaningful things that happen inside of those episodes. And you know, we'll get into the reasons why this is such an excellent season of television and why I can't wait to hear why it's meant so much to you for so long. It's our producer, Carlos, I think co favorite, right? It's tied with another season as his favorite and instantly it's my favorite. We'll see if it's dethroned while I finish the series. But I just thought like, start to finish, this was outstanding and really mature and the way that it leveled up something that I already thought was outstanding in season two. Like, I think season two probably still has the highest highs for me with innocence and passion, but this episode is so consistently excellent that I just kind of am in awe of it. And it has some of the, some of the things that it explores inside of it are some of my favorite things to talk about in a story set in young adulthood, into adulthood in particular, like late high school. You're on the brink of college, your life is changing, you're thinking about big things. And also, Giles just has never looked hotter. I gasped a lot. I already have. Like said 500 times in this pod, I would like to fuck this man. I don't know how to explain the lust reaching yet another layer of the stratosphere, but when I saw him for the first time in season three, I gasped aloud. Somehow he's getting hotter.
- [06:58]
A
There's something for everyone here, right? There's plenty of Giles from Ali Rubin. There's. Faith Lehane is here, though. That is just, like, thrilling.
- [07:05]
B
Also thrilling.
- [07:06]
A
Eliza Dushku's here. Absolute dynamite in this season of television. Incredible, incredible addition to the show. I struggle to articulate why these seasons two and three mean so much to me. I attempted in our season two podcast, I think, and I'll just go back to this again. It just has a lot to do with being exactly Buffy's age, essentially, and when she turns 18, I turn 18, and all this sort of stuff like that. So when she graduates high school, I graduate high school. So, like, it's. I've just never felt so, you know, obviously, I wasn't fighting monsters and demons and vampires, but, you know, that's the metaphor of the show. You feel like you are when you're a teenager just getting through a day in high school. So. And then. And then the fact that it is so good upon rewatch, and even when you're an adult, you can find things to relate to. And I don't, unlike some of my experiences in season one, I'm not, like, cringingly sharing it with anyone. I'm just like, this is masterful storytelling to the point that you made. We'll have sort of an overview here in a second. But going back through these in a sort of more analytical space than I usually do, I was really struck by the twin themes of this season and how they just hit in almost every single episode. So I don't know that, you know, Joss Whedon and his writers wrote down these two themes on a whiteboard and made sure, like, hit them. I don't know it was that conscious, but it just feels that spine is so, like, strong throughout the season. So that you can come to this from just a completely casual, I'm enjoying myself, I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm doing all these things. And then when you get to it on a sort of scholarly level, there's just a lot of rich material here. So it. It just hits everywhere. I'm so excited to talk to you about it. So same on the mailbag front. We got a few emails, but I would love to hear from more people, specific thoughts about. We haven't gotten too many, like, Faith Lehane. Oh, my God, she's amazing. And I know she means a lot to a lot of people. So. Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com if you want. We got a couple of those, but I would love even more. But we have received a ton of emails between season two and three of people just talking in a big picture way about what Buffy means to them. It matters a lot to me to hear from our listeners about how much Buffy, a show that means so much to me, means to them. But I got multiple emails from listeners who met their significant others through the Buffy fandom. Like, beautiful stories about just like, how they made connections or specifically, and this ties into sort of another one, tons of stories of people who use Buffy to help them get through dark, scary, and especially lonely times. So the way in which Buffy was sort of like a light in the darkness for a lot of people in their teen years or, you know, adult years or even beyond that, and then fostered connections and they found partners who sort of just had similar worldviews as them through this fandom. There are a lot of fandoms that unite people, but I do think some of them are, like, particularly good at that. And I think Buffy is one of those, you know. Do you have any thoughts about why that might be, Mallory? Like, what about Buffy?
- [10:15]
B
I'm not, I, I, I'm, I'm not, like, surprised to hear this at all. This is one of those things that you hear it or you start to see it, or you get to glimpse the reality of it for specific people in your life. Like, one of the things I've been, I've been texting a lot about is, you know, people in my life, my friends who, oh, my God, you're watching Buffy for the first time. Here's what this means to me, or like I've mentioned on the prior pods, you know, Adam, my husband, is a huge Buffy fan. You guys were having a conversation in our home about Faith when I had no context for what that meant.
- [10:43]
A
Right.
- [10:44]
B
Like, so that's all really fun. I think that this aspect of the kind of umbrella themes and the like, unifying principles and areas of interest and examination in the story, but then the ability inside of that defy maybe a specific, specific character or characters who, like, allow you to form the deepest connection or relationships, friendships, whatever the case may be, like, there is something here for everybody. Do you find something that can either give you catharsis or an escape or unlock some level of introspection and understanding in one of the parental relationships, one of the friendships, one of the romantic relationships, one of the arcs and plot lines about ambition or fear or anything?
- [11:28]
A
Right.
- [11:29]
B
And I think what you said a few minutes ago really strikes me about, like, I mean, I love thinking about this and talking about this in general. With stories I love about how you grow with them. And some of the things that resonated with you the first time around are always going to be meaningful. But one of the great rewarding, joyous things about lifelong fandom, right, or fandom that spans a great swath of your life is like growing with the story, changing with the story, and then relating to it in a new way, or seeing other people in your life, who you share it with, discover it in a way that makes sense for where they are. So, like, I'm excited, you know, to see what that looks like for me with Buffy, because obviously, I'm watching it for the first time as an adult. And so it's this really wonderful experience of, like, simultaneously having it port me back to really keen, specific feelings that I had in middle school or high school or early college. You know, who does it make me think of? Who does it make me, like, yearn for? Does it make me miss? What regrets does it call up for me? Like, I love stuff like that. And it's fun to think about what it would have been like to watch it at that age. Like, to be a contemporary to the characters like you were. I think it would have just been really meaningful. But I also appreciate getting to come to it with the perspective of, like. I mean, in some ways, in some cases, maybe, like, experience, maturity, wisdom. And frankly, I think in a lot of ways, especially right now in my life, like, I'm 39, I'm turning 40 next year, I'm tired all the time, and I'm just spending so much of my life lately, like, what did I fuck up? What did I not do? What is there still time for? And so it's a, like, really interesting time to be thinking back to, like, what it was like to think things were ahead of you or to, like, worry that they wouldn't be. And so I just like, what is that? What is the version of that for everyone? You know? And so I love that. And, like, I think one of the things that I loved most about this season, to your point, about these kind of just big principles and through lines that are stitched almost to an astonishing extent across every episode and every character, one of the things that really stood out to me on that front as a big picture takeaway on the season that I look forward to, I think, talking about in more detail as we go through some of the beats and some of the categories, is almost everybody in this season is behaving badly. And not maliciously always, but badly. And so there is something about this season. Even in a show and a series more broadly that is about high school as hell, the metaphor, the supernatural telling you something, unlocking something, a portal to understanding a very relatable, normal experience where I'm like any story, the deeper you get where either people have actual powers or they opt into participating in that kind of experience, do you tip into, like, losing that relatability? And we're deeper into Buffy, for me, than I've been before, and it's gone the other way, where the characters have never been more human and more relatable to me. And so that's just like a masterclass of storytelling and understanding not only these characters, but people and how people behave and the mistakes that they make. And so on that level, too, I'm not surprised that people find these connections not only to the story, but to other people who love the story, because it is about vampires and werewolves and demons, but it's about being a person in the world. So I just love this season being a person.
- [14:44]
A
Thank you so much. I love. Nothing makes me happier than listening to you talk about Buffy My Heart Show. But, like, we were just talking about, you know, this week is also the premiere of the Pit, season two. So the Pit is, like, very much on my mind. And something I love about that show, which Rob and I were talking about on the Prestige Feed, was like, everyone is right and everyone is wrong constantly on that show. No one person is always right. No one person is always wrong. They're constantly, both, all the time. And that's just what makes them so human and so compelling to watch. And you don't have to, like, vilify someone when they get something wrong. And you don't have to sort of put them up on a pedestal when they get something right. They're just constantly trying, trying and failing sometimes and succeeding other times. And that's just, like, what makes human characters compulsively watchable and relatable and all that sort of stuff. So the last thing I'll say on sort of like the mailbag front is the third bucket that I would put. A lot of emails we received were people who were sharing Buffy for the first time with a child, a partner, a friend, or a parent because of our rewatch and that just, like, spread the good words. Thank you so much for. For being out there. But, like, yeah, for some people, they said, hey, I was. I was finally able to convince my husband, best friend, son, mother, whatever, to watch this with me because the podcast is doing that. Most of them have gotten ahead of us because we are watching at a very steady, slow pace. And that's fine. The pod will always be here for you when you want to loop back to it. But. But I just love hearing those things. Stories of people sharing Buffy for the first time. A show that means so much to so many people, and then, like, the way in which someone can understand you a bit better when they understand a story that means so much to you. So, yeah, it's really beautiful.
- [16:33]
B
It's the best.
- [16:34]
A
All right, opening snapshot. Here we go. Buffy Season 3, originally aired September 1998 to July 1999, with an asterisk. And we'll talk about the episode, earshot and graduation day next time. Those were anomalies on the schedule this season. Just a fun fact. This season debuted a new title card, which is the most recognized. This is the logo of the series. It took them two seasons to get there, but they hired Margot Chase, who did the Bram Stoker's Dracula poster, to redesign Buffy. It's no longer a little scrawl. It's now the gothic. A stake inside of the bee. Buffy the Vampire Slayer opening logo. And welcome to the opening credits. Seth Green, We're. We're thrilled to have you. How, like, how was even more Oz this season? How did that work for you, Mallory?
- [17:25]
B
Oz is one of my favorites. I'm delighted to have more Oz. Oz obviously belongs not only in the opening credits, but in as many scenes as possible. And this was a really fun Oz season because as we will talk about in covering this, this first half, when we've got some hormones running amok and some. Some crushes pulling on our morality, we get the many wonderfully comedic moments with Oz and the classic Oz sarcasm and wit and his very specific tone. But we got some really heartfelt and deep scenes and moments with Oz as well, so that was a treat. I would be lying if I said that my main takeaway from the opening credits was Oz's inclusion, because as I believe I texted you in real time, I was like, this is diabolical to have. I mean, thrilled to see Giles in the credits always, but to put him the rose, the Jenny rose.
- [18:14]
A
I know.
- [18:15]
B
Oh, my God. Like, just seeing that, like, this is right and smart and ports me into the headspace I need to be in, but also is downright diabolical to remind me of what he thought was about to happen before it was all lost.
- [18:34]
A
The good news is Giles gets to have new sexual experiences this season. That's right. And we'll talk about that. Okay, here's a quote. That Joss Whedon gave to empire in the 20 year sort of look back at Buffy article that they did about season three. And I'm gonna read the full quote. Even though it's long, it proved that there was life after Romeo and Juliet. Our goal was to keep it fresh, which we did. And we got to explore faith and the dark side of being a slayer. And calling that whole thing into question was really exciting. And the point. And knowing that we had a countdown on high school stories when we'd only been in high for two and a half years. There was discussion of whether we should be saved by the bell. And they're in high school forever. And the decision to have them graduate meant for the first time that we were going to get into serious changes just in terms of the look and the feel. We also knew that angel was going to be leaving, I guess. Spoilers for the end of season three of Buffy Vampire Slayer. He has a spin off show. Knowing we had limited time to play up both high school and the Angel Buffy romance sort of galvanized us and made us pull out all of our stops with what we could do. So this is Angel's last full season of Buffy.
- [19:46]
B
Wow, that's crazy.
- [19:48]
A
This is. I'll save the other one from part two, but it's not the only character we say goodbye to. That, like, fundamentally, I think, alters the DNA of what Buffy is. Okay, Mallory, you promised to revise your feelings on Xander's behavior in the season two finale based on how it's dealt with in season three. And I tried to keep a poker face, but I'm not sure I did because you were like, surely there will be fallout immediately. Fallout at the beginning of season three. And there is not, and I'm not to say there never will be on the show, but there is not. There are ramifications inside of the fact that it means that Buffy, when Buffy keeps her secret at the beginning of the season about angel being back, a reason that she feels like she can't talk to certainly Xander, of course, but maybe also Willow, et cetera, et cetera, is because at the end of season two, if you recall, Xander shows up and Willow's like, hey, go tell Buffy I'm working on the spell and maybe we can still save Angel. And Xander says, says, go kick his ass. Willow says, kick his ass. And so that is never clarified. Buffy still thinks that that is what happened at the end of season two. Any. Any thoughts on, like, how that's being handled or. Or if that informs how you feel about it.
- [21:01]
B
It's interesting because one of, I think the real strengths of these early episodes and like, I mean, really not even the early episodes, because through Revelations, certainly, and amends and really beyond. And I think this is a strength of Buffy in general. Something happens and then the consequences are very present. Right. Not only in our characters lives, but in the text of the show. And so that was why I think I had, even just through two seasons, the expectation.
- [21:34]
A
I think a very reasonable one.
- [21:35]
B
Yeah. That it would be part of. I wasn't sure how long Buffy would be gone. And I think I. I might have even guessed, like, at the end on the season two pause, maybe three episodes or like she came back, like a little sooner than I was anticipating. But ultimately I was glad. Right. And then like, angel came back, I think right around when I probably would have guessed that that seemed like the right. The right amount of time. But, you know, because there is so much being held to account either by yourself or by your friends or by your watcher or somebody in your life, your parent. Like, it feel a little odd that this didn't happen with Xander. And I think it could have happened in a number of ways. I think certainly there would have been an opportunity in the. Is this an intervention scene for. Because we are kind of volleying accusations back and forth like, well, you know, Buffy's basically spinning it back on Xander about his being. About his jealousy, even though everybody in her life is sitting on the other side being like, we've got some notes.
- [22:36]
A
This is inside. Inside Revelations or Dead Man's Party.
- [22:41]
B
Revelations. Dead Man's Party. I thought. I think what happened in Dead Man's Party, adding any more elements to that would have been tough. But I think later in Revelations, once Angel is back and we're confronting Buffy about that, there's an opportunity when we're sort of saying, well, what did you do? Or why are you doing it? Or what are your motivations to put that on Xander at some point. But the other way that I think it could have happened is through Willow. Like, especially given the amount of time that Willow and Xander spent together assessing the evolving nature of feelings in this season. I think that would have been an interesting thing to do as well. So it's a little bit surprising that that didn't happen. But I will say I think these are fascinating Xander episodes despite the absence of this.
- [23:24]
A
Absolutely. I mean, like, Xander remains a character that I am frustrated by but interested in. So, you know, and especially, you know, we'll get to the. I think the most Famous Xander episode is in the back half of this season. So we'll spend more talking about Xander then. There are some. Something I think is interesting in season two is there are a couple, I think season two, season three, there's a couple season two do overs inside of season three. Right. Anne and Dead Man's Party is another swing at when she was Bad. And it sounds like those episodes didn't really work for you, but I do think they're a little more effective than When She Was Bad at a very similar idea.
- [23:59]
B
I still liked it. I liked all of these episodes. There's no episode in this stretch where, I mean, we'll get to this later. But we removed. Right, you've removed from our categories. Like, what's the.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah, defend the bad episode that you love.
- [24:11]
B
Bad one that you're willing to make the case for. Like, because there's frankly nothing here. There's nothing here that's really eligible for that kind of consideration. So noting like Anne, Dead Man's Party, Beauty and the Beast as feeling, relatively speaking, a tier below in this episode is more like, I don't know. In season one, those are among the episodes would be like, damn, yeah, exactly. We're cooking, you know. And so it's more actually speaking to the overall increase in quality where, like, if the episodes that check in at the bottom of the power ranking in this set of 12 are like Bs, that's pretty amazing because that means the rest are A's, you know, or me. And we've got some A pluses in the mix. So. And I think it's. That's. That's impressive.
- [24:53]
A
It's that continuation of what we talked about in season two, which is like the beginning of a Buffy season. It deals with tying up what happened at the end of the last season. And really, you know, you already mentioned the episode Revelations. When everyone finds out that Angel's back, those episode episodes are really like, we're in it now. So usually there's like a slow ramp up, an introduction of sort of, you know, Faith shows up. Yeah, we get three episodes, Faith shows up. And then. And then, you know, like, we're really off the races after episode seven.
- [25:24]
B
I would make the case that we were really in it in Band Candy.
- [25:28]
A
And by in it, I mean, you mean on top of a cop car. Okay. Also, the other do over from season two to season three is that with love and respect to Kendra the Vampire Slayer, Faith is certainly a better iteration of what if there was another Slayer? And how she reflects Buffy. So this is a section I'm calling Faith Part one. We're gonna get into Faith Part two. Cause, you know, there's just, like, a double arc for this character inside of this season, and we really hit it at the midpoint where we cut it off this season. So Faith Part one. Next time we'll do Faith Part two and the mayor. That's gonna be in our next episode. But this is Faith's introduction. I wanna shout out Douglas Petrie, who is on a lot of crucial Faith episodes and is sort of credited as the writer on the writer staff, who really sh. Shaped the nature of this character. While developing the character. Doug took inspiration from Elektra from Marvel Comics of Daredevil fame, quote, for inspiration for Faith. I read Elektra Lives Again about a hundred times in a different teen, punkier context. Faith is so much like Elektra. End quote. And it is no coincidence that Doug went on to executive produce and then showrun Daredevil on Netflix. He was a showrunner of season two of Daredevil, which is the Electra season. So, like, you know, this has been like, his. Some kind of character psychology that he has been really deep in for years. And I just love anytime he ever talks about Faith and the creation of Faith and what she meant to him and what she means to the story they're trying to tell. I just find everything he says really fascinating.
- [27:04]
B
I could definitely see without really having to strain for very long, Faith feeding a sexual partner a block of cheese from the tip of a knife while that partner is prone on a kitchen island. It's very easy to imagine a boxing ring.
- [27:23]
A
Yeah, some sparring in a boxing ring turns into bucking. Why not? Sounds like classic Faith. Okay. But on the Faith front, and this is the first of these, like, twin themes that I wanted to talk about, the season starts with a clear Buffy foil inside of the character of Lily, who we met as Chanterelle in season two. In the episode Lie to Me, she comes back here in Anne, she is another lost young woman, and she takes over the name of Anne, which is Buffy's assumed identity in episode one, after Buffy leaves town. So that's, like, from the very beginning, we're doing mirror storytelling. Right? And then we'll return to that idea again and again with, like, Cordelia and Buffy in Homecoming, the doppelgangers of the Wishverse, Gwendolyn Post. And Part two spoilers. Wesley, Wyndham, Price and Ripper himself for Giles. Right.
- [28:13]
B
I cannot wait to talk about Wesley.
- [28:15]
A
Some baffling ideas. Right?
- [28:17]
B
Speaking of beauty.
- [28:18]
A
And the Beast. We have Pete for Oz, we have Amy for Willow again and again and again. But, like, Faith is obviously the biggest, baddest foil of them all. You and I love to talk about this theme, especially, like, when we talked about Loki. Like, what does it mean to meet yourself? There's, like, you know, more literal versions of that inside of a story, like the Loki TV show. But what does it mean to be a slayer and meet another slayer and have that slayer have a different relationship with the power that you have or the sexuality that you have or all these other things. So this idea of, like, they're before the Grace, which we talked about a lot when we talked about stranger Things, like, who is Buffy without Giles as her wife? She had to watch Giles die in front of her, which canonically, Buffy watched Merrick her watch her die, you know, in the movie, which, you know, leads to Giles being her watcher here. If she didn't have the Scoobies, if she didn't have Joyce, she was just on her own, living in a crappy motel. You know, what would. What would Buffy have become? And this is like a direct quote from Marty Knoxon quote. We often talked about how Faith was Buffy's shadow self. The same elephants, but elements, but gone to a dark place. Really fun to contrast the two. So what do you like, Mallory? What does this theme mean for you? Were you surprised to find it present in so many episodes this season? And what was your first impression of Faith?
- [29:42]
B
Quickly, just in case Amy doesn't come up again, let me just say. I guess I gotta put this in the funniest moment.
- [29:47]
A
Okay, good.
- [29:48]
B
The like has Buffy checking in at the end on how Amy was doing, and Willa's, like, really just getting great with her wheel. And it's like. I mean, like, like, any progress with the spell to turn her back? Very, very funny and very good. One of the things that I also really like about. I quite enjoyed the Wish in general. I thought that was just a great, great, great episode. One of my favorites from this stretch and such an incredible concept that connects to what we're talking about here with foils. Because whether it's a foil or an alternate reality or any number of other things, this aspect of ripple effects, whether that stems from a person in your orbit or a choice that anybody makes, how do those consequences span and sprawl and influence the fabric of your reality? Inside of that episode, we also get to meet a different Buffy.
- [30:39]
A
Right?
- [30:40]
B
And so that was also just lip scar and cargo pants and all. What is Buffy like, at this stage in her life, if she hasn't had Giles as her watcher, if she hasn't had angel in her life, if Willow and Xander haven't been her best friends, it's so stark, the distinction. Right? So that was, like, I thought, really bracing and effective to give us that. That is more of a, like, actual. Like, if Loki met a variant of Loki. Right. That was great.
- [31:09]
A
And on him.
- [31:11]
B
I'll be returning to Xander and Willow in that episode, obviously. Obviously. Obviously. I think Faith is just fantastic. Like, as one of my favorite characters so far, I think I'll be judicious with my comments today because it's such a rich text in the second half of the season. We won't spoil why, but there's so much to talk about then. But I think that this. This setup here from you is. Is perfect in terms of why this is so effective right away. First of all, it's a fun performance. The writing is great. It's sexy, it's spunky, it's. It's fierce, it's feisty. Like, I really. Even though the particular execution of everything with Kendra, as we talked about in season two, was imperfect, as we discussed on those pods, I really was riveted by not just presenting to us as viewers these ideas and these questions, but presenting to Buffy directly these questions of, well, what does it mean if somebody feels really differently about this burden, responsibility, but also opportunity, these gifts? Right? And that was so interesting, like, right away. And with Faith, I think it's just kind of right away at, like, God tier level. And part of that is because the relationship between Faith and Buffy is so fascinating. But also it's because, like, I think Faith's introduction in the third episode, right on the heels of the. The really brutal things that everybody says to each other in episode two in Dead Man's Party. And I think the very fair, very fair feedback that Buffy. I think the way that some people, Xander most of all, express it. I've got some feedback, some thoughts and some notes, but I think that a lot of the things, you know, I'll spoil that I have, like what Willow says to Buffy in that. In that episode at the end in their fight, is one of my category picks, because I thought it was, like, really beautiful, but also really important for Buffy to have to confront what not. Not just what all these people mean to and. And can give her, but what she means to them. Right? And the effects she has on them.
- [33:18]
A
That moment where Buffy's like, I know you're worried about me, Will's like, no, me, me.
- [33:23]
B
My life going through.
- [33:24]
A
Yeah.
- [33:25]
B
Yeah, that was great. So I'm excited to talk about that more. But Faith comes in on the heels of that reckoning, right? And not only is it immediately like, wait, tell me some more about naked wrestling. That all. And all of that, right? You're just. Right away, like, it's just like a little spark of electricity in the plush couches at the Broads. But bringing Faith to dinner, and Buffy's like, man, it's creepy. And Joyce is like, does anybody else think that? And the season is so expert. I think there are really tense, sometimes very, very, very painful moments between characters. But I think it's also like, the season is so interested and invested in people saying to each other, you sure?
- [34:08]
A
Yeah, right.
- [34:09]
B
Like, let's interrogate that a little bit. And I think Faith unlocks a lot of that. So I'm excited to talk about Faith and Buffy and just Faith in general, because Kendra's like. There's almost something holy and righteous about how Kendra thinks about the.
- [34:24]
A
Buffy's like the bad girl compared to Kendra. And then here's Faith on the other side of the spectrum to make Buffy look like the saint.
- [34:31]
B
You know what I mean?
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:32]
B
And I think it's really cool to sort of simultaneously, Faith and Kendra both relish being the Slayer in a way that Buffy doesn't always.
- [34:42]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:42]
B
But it manifests in such a radically distinct fashion, both compared to each other, Faith and Kendra, and also, to your point, compared to Buffy. And you used the word power already. But, like, the way that Faith embraces that power, luxuriates in it. But then what? We get to peel back layer, layer after layer over the episodes, over our time with Faith of like. Like, well, what are Faith's insecurities? What are Faith's wounds? Right. That drive that.
- [35:10]
A
I love her introduction because she comes in with a lie and with all this bravado and, like, she'll never drop that bravado. That is, like, something that is part of her. But when we see at the back end of that episode, she goes from where, you know, all of Faith's outfits are, like, absolutely iconic and amazing. But the. The. The shirt we meet her in has what my friends Jenny and Kristen refer to as the boob window. It's just this, like, bizarre piece of clothing. But the end of the episode when she's. When the truth has been revealed and she turns into someone who is, like, a terrified teenager, she has this, like, soft baby pink underneath the sort of, like, it's Like a black shirt with like a, like, baby pink sleeves. And it's just sort of like this, like, softness underneath the, like, vinyl and leather and black and dark red and on all the lipstick and everything that she wears. And it's just like seeing that in her very first episode is so important to us. Understanding who Faith will be and how those insecurities are always there underneath the hypersexuality and the bravado and everything that drives her and where that sends her for the rest of the season is really interesting. We are retiring accent Thunderdome for this season because with love and respect to Liam in amends, no one is touching Eliza Dushku's quote, unquote Boston accent. A truly extraordinary piece of work from Eliza here.
- [36:41]
B
I think that the way that canopy was pronounced run for the money at least. But fair. Totally fair. Totally fair.
- [36:52]
A
Here's the big question. The, like there before the grace. Here's a question I will never feel right about, which is, is why they let Faith live alone in that motel when, like, there's room in the summer's home or, you know, there's like, various places, you know, the Watchers Council we have endless notes for. Obviously, yeah, they're the worst. But if, even if the Watchers Council decides to be derelict in their duty towards Faith, one of their slayers, one of their soldiers out here waging war, fighting the war instead of waging the war as Giles delineates and hopeless. These, these kind folks that we've come to love, the Scoobys and Giles, why are they not taking better care of Faith inside of their community? What do you think? Any thoughts on this?
- [37:39]
B
I, I, I, I almost like, imagine as my head cannon that Joyce off screen at some point, much like she was like, let's have. You mean, like dinner.
- [37:49]
A
And when a different Joyce and Hopper talked about how they went to high school with Henry off screen.
- [37:54]
B
Exactly. Just like that. You know, invite Faith over for, for Christmas dinner. That the suggestions was like, ask Faith if she wants to stay in the guest room. And the Buffy was just like, no, no. Yeah. Or like, sure, I'll ask. She's not interested in the. Never asked everybody else. I think it's like, I am Giles not making sure that Faith had superior lodging is. Is a little bit of a puzzler, but. Yeah, this is. There's something else I want to say on this, but I'll, I'll save it for the second pot. I think this observation, while very.
- [38:32]
A
Very.
- [38:32]
B
Fair in terms of a question we ask now of these characters Sets up something very interesting in the back half as a result.
- [38:39]
A
Completely true. I do have a. On the. On the, like, endless notes we have for the Watchers Council, I do have a bumper sticker that is not currently on my car, but maybe will soon be that says, like, pay Buffy Summers, you cowards. Right. Like, the Watchers Council exists. They're having retreats in the Cotswolds. No one is paying these teenage girls to, like, fight vampires or be able to afford a nice place to live. You know, just something to think about.
- [39:06]
B
It's a. It's a great note. And here's another one. The fact that Giles, obviously, he's. He's not. He's not at this retreat. You know, we'll get to watch what his packing list looks like later, which is very fun. And I also. This is not Council business. This is looking for Buffy business. But in Anne, I did just love that little detail that he was constantly, like, picking up and getting on a plane to go look somewhere so sad and wonderful, but when he was, like, serene, you know, horse riding, hiking, punting. It's a great honor to be invited. Or so I'm told. And then the way with such longing. He's just like. I love a good kayak. At some point, we need to see it. We need to see Giles in a kayak. Do we get to.
- [39:49]
A
No.
- [39:50]
B
God damn it.
- [39:51]
A
Sorry. I don't think we ever see him on any kind of boat, is it would be my memory.
- [39:56]
B
Just rip the band aid off. I guess it's good you told me me, but I am crushed.
- [40:00]
A
Yeah. Don't hold your breath for Giles in the kayak. All right. We had a couple emails on this front. You know, we've already mentioned Faith. Faith, sexuality. Eliza Dushku became like, a massive thing off of this season of Buffy, you know, then she did bring it on and a number of other things. But, like, this is. This is her introduction to the world. In a season. I'm gonna. I'm gonna redirectly what I wrote in this notes. The notes here. In a season marked by Buffy's prissy pastel inability to act on her sexual feelings for Faith's dark leather and jewel toned, overt sexuality is key, key, key. Two emails we got for the Bhad Bhabies. One from Hazel, which genuinely, with love and respect to beautiful Hazel, really cracked me up because she's. Hazel was describing how she's watching Buffy. She's showing her mom Buffy for the first time, right? And her dad's just, like, kind of dipping in and out of the room, as dads do. And she's like, dad never, like, knows anyone's name, knows no actors. Like, like, cannot identify anyone. And then he walks in the room and he's like, hey, that's Elijah Dushku. And mom and I were like, oh, you know, Dad's like, little crush on Eliza Dushku or whatever. But it's just sort of like, Eliza Dushku was quite formative to so many people that I wager so many people who cannot name a single thing from the 90s can name Eliza Dushku. So I love that Hazel's dad was here to represent that for us. But it really cracked me up that, like, she and her mom were like, I'm sorry, what? Who do you here in this show? He has no idea who Sarah Michelle Geller is, but he knows Eliza Dishku, and I love that.
- [41:33]
B
I mean, just incredibly reminiscent, honestly, of in Band Candy, when Cordelia is talking about the effect of the candy on her parents and, you know, the.
- [41:42]
A
Her mom.
- [41:42]
B
It's the borrowing her her clothes and the light her pants. But she's like, dad just locked himself in the bathroom with old copies of Esquire.
- [41:51]
A
Hazel, I'm sorry. Thank you for sharing. Okay, and then Kayla, our listener, Kayla, is asking the really important questions. Journalism boots on the ground from Kayla. Kayla says, I need to know what Mal thinks about f revealing the existence of what I call the post slage double Hs, aka quote from Faith. Isn't it funny how slaying always makes you hungry and horny? Mallory, how'd you feel?
- [42:14]
B
Won't surprise you to hear that this is one of the clips that I've selected for today for a later category. And guess what? Just because we're talking about it now doesn't mean we won't be playing it later. This was. Every now and then, I take pictures. You know, we text and talk about things all the time. Time. But I think, frankly, pretty weird habit I had is that I take pictures of my TV with, like, ideally paused with the character making a certain expression, and if I can get it just right, the subtitles of what they've said. And this was, of course.
- [42:44]
A
One of.
- [42:45]
B
The first things that I sent you from this season. And I was just, like, instant icon, right? Like, this is basically, like, I think, the new logline for the pod for my life. I mean, it's just perfect. I also love that not just everybody's reaction because, like, you know, Willow looks at Buffy because Faith has said, first God I could eat a horse. Then she says, is it a crazy oscillator always makes you hungry and horny. And then Willow looks at Buffy and Buffy's like, well, sometimes I crave a non fat yogurt after it.
- [43:19]
A
Prissy and pastel, I'm telling you.
- [43:23]
B
So, so good. So, yeah, this is just like one of those perfect moments where you're like, all right, I have a new. I have a new mantra for my own life. This is really succinctly summed up something core. But also I'm just like, this character is an important part of my experience instantly because of this line.
- [43:39]
A
Faith is a thought leader. What can you say? Because we are not like, you know, as we usually do, we're pulling out sort of two episodes to talk about because this experience is catered to Valerie. Those are two fairly Giles centric episodes that we will be talking about in this first. So I do want to pause here and really quickly talk about Angel.
- [43:57]
B
Right, yeah.
- [43:58]
A
Angel's return, AKA how to not piss Joanna off with a fake out slash impermanent death. Right. Usually this really pisses me off. And I don't know if it's because Joss was the first to do it and I was still like wide eyed and innocent, but you spend the end of season two just being like, oh my God, Buffy had to kill angel and he's gone forever. How sad. And then, you know, three episodes into season three, Angel's back iconic entrance, the cluttering is here, the shimmering glutes are here. We're just like dropping sweaty tush from hell, but it looks like from heaven. Just like, you know, he's back. It doesn't last very long.
- [44:38]
B
Oh, God.
- [44:39]
A
But angel does come back from hell feral.
- [44:42]
B
Yes.
- [44:43]
A
Which is how Jon Snow should have returned from the dead. And I will die on this hill. This was my number one. Like when Jon Snow died and we all talked about how he was going to come back, angel coming back was like my, my touchstone. I was like, he has to come back with consequences. There has to be. And then, you know what? Thrones decided not to do that. And that's fine, that's their choice. But like, I feel like if you die, there has to be a cost. And for angel, it was centuries of torment in hell. Right. Like, do you, do you feel like that, like those consequences really had an impact? Or do you feel like they sort of breached, breezed past them kind of quickly?
- [45:21]
B
I think that revelations for Buffy and then amends for angel are like two of the strongest episodes to date. And the most, I think, like, textually and thematically interesting. So, yeah, I think that this was really successfully done. And I like the way that we're, like, learning as we go. We're not for everything, right? The plot of just, like, how exactly did this happen?
- [45:45]
A
What does it mean?
- [45:46]
B
Who knows when? But then for angel, angel, the question of why and the way that this looms over his journey in Amends in particular, which I found quite compelling.
- [45:57]
A
Amends is one of my favorite episodes of all time. And honestly, like, it's only because Band Candy is so important to who you are as a person, that Amends is not the other episodes we're doing, but Amends, which is just like pure soap opera, is, I think, one of my favorite Buffy episodes of all time. I just think it's.
- [46:15]
B
A lot of my category picks are from Amends. It's. It's. It's really, really, really great. I'm curious, do you. Are there. You know, there's so much scholarship out there around Buffy. Dissertations, podcasts, various. Any How. How much scholarship is there about how central handcuffs are for both Giles and Joyce?
- [46:39]
A
A lot of manacles.
- [46:40]
B
Buffy and Angel.
- [46:41]
A
Yeah.
- [46:41]
B
What level of detailed work has been done to explore this?
- [46:47]
A
Probably as much as there's been an examination of, like, how important is shirtless, sweaty Tai Chi to the experience of coming back from Hell. This is a.
- [46:55]
B
A wild scene.
- [46:57]
A
A lot of shirtless Tai chi in this season. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But so, like, I. To your point about how the information is doled out, I think it's also, you know, to this question of, like, is Anne an essential episode? On several levels. There are interesting things that are happening, but the lore that we learn there about how time passes differently in Hell sets up for us to understand what angel went through and why he comes back as feral and tormented as he does, you know?
- [47:25]
B
Yeah. And I love to, like, a couple things on that front. I love that when he first, at the end of episode four, after we've dispensed of Pete, right. And angel, the way that he just cracks and falls to his knees and clutches Buffy and, like, just squeaks out her name and, like, there's the recognition and the emotional pull. Even though, as we then see, he is not even remotely himself, but he's still, like, she can still draw that out of him. That was great.
- [48:04]
A
Sarah's face, too, in that moment, like, Buffy's face of just sort of like the. Because when she first sees him and he, like, attacks her in the woods, there's like Angel's back and he's still evil, but it's like Angel's back and he's angel again.
- [48:19]
B
Yes.
- [48:20]
A
And he's got the manacles already here. Like, you know, let's get to it. Let's off to the races.
- [48:25]
B
Let's get to it. Yeah, that was great. And then on the time front, with what it is like in a demon dimension, in a hell dimension, one of the things that we really like talking about, whether it's in covering this show or something like Interview with the Vampire or like a Loki story, the Good Place, like either when a character is immortal or in some sort of sphere where they can exist in perpetuity. Who wants to live forever? We talk about that aspect. Who wants to live forever? How do you view or value immortal life?
- [48:56]
A
Right. It is.
- [49:02]
B
I think, brilliant to introduce an element like this that makes us feel for a character who has lived for centuries already and will presumably live on for longer. Who knows? I have another television show to watch now. Well, what's the. We talk about the scary underbelly of that, the dark underbelly of that. It's watching so many people you love die over time, right? It's, you know, the I choose a mortal life, like a calculus.
- [49:34]
A
Right, there's that.
- [49:35]
B
But like, well, if you can live that long, either in your own life, you have the experience of a lot of pain. But then for angel, you compound that by being in this dimension and then centuries added onto the centuries where he's already carried all of this with him of just abject suffering and torment that for other people, you know, that's passed in the blink of an eye. I just thought was a really smart one way to play with the idea of time for a character where that's already really on our mind. It's obviously like, you know, with Lily and Richie, it's like, boy, this dude got fucking old because he went into this hell dimension for like an afternoon. Yeah, very tough. But for angel, it's a blip for him still. And yet what is the cost?
- [50:15]
A
And also the idea of, like, okay, so we watched angel do all this horrible Angelus do all this horrible, horrible shit in season two, kill Jenny Callender, among other things, right? And. And, you know, so for people at home who are like, he can't be let, you know, for the Xanders at home, for even the Giles at home who are like, he tortured me for hours for fun, he can't be let off the hook. Well, you're like, okay, but how long does he have to be punished. He was punished for hundreds of years in hell. Is that enough time? And, like, the complicated question that this season asks, and then Buffy will continue to ask in terms of a vampire with and without a soul, is, is angel responsible for the crimes of Angelus? Right. Yeah. Several of the charact let him off the hook. He doesn't let himself off the hook in amends, especially. Right. And then that gives us, the audience, the freedom to decide for ourselves whether or not he's worthy of redemption. And I really love that, because if he just came back and everyone's like, oh, Angel's here. Yay. We at home might be going, excuse me.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah.
- [51:16]
A
Like, does Jenny's death mean nothing to you? You know? Or if he was not allowed redemption, that's. That's also a less interesting story.
- [51:24]
B
So for sure, it's all.
- [51:26]
A
It all pivots on amends, which, again, I just think is a tremendous dynamite of storytelling. Yeah.
- [51:30]
B
Or. Or if he comes back and he's a husk and he's. He's 100 years old, he's about to actually die when he takes the next step off the curve. It's like he comes back still in his prime, eternal peak and prime, and has to carry all this and has to.
- [51:42]
A
Yeah, just.
- [51:43]
B
Boy.
- [51:44]
A
I. I think this idea of, like, also this feeds back into inside of some. This is like stealthy. Stealthily. In a men's section.
- [51:51]
B
Right.
- [51:52]
A
Like inside of a men's. Where angel talks about Angelus, but also Lean.
- [51:58]
B
Right.
- [51:58]
A
It's not the demon in me that he's killing, it's the man. Right. I love that line. Like, I was a bad person before I was a bad vampire. So this idea of his refracted in. This idea in this season of Doubles and Foils, angel versus Angelus versus Liam, as this sort of like, who are these three men and what do they owe each other? Yeah. And how the show plays with Spike. Spike as my guy. Right. As a demon who, you know, without getting into too much spoilers, but I think you can tell just by, like, the judge in season two being like, there's no humanity in him and Angelus, but Spike and Drusilla are just sort of lousy with it. Right. They're crawling with humanity, with love, all this sort of stuff like that. So Spike. What kind of person was Spike before he became a vampire? Versus what kind of person was Liam before he became Angelus? And how that dictated dictates how the soul or soul remnants or all these sort of things interact with a demon? I think it's just like a really interesting thing that the show, I think, is figuring it out as it goes along. I don't think they had all these ideas sorted out at the beginning, but I think it's key to think about this now as we think about the show going forward. So that's just a tease for my constant Spike obsession.
- [53:18]
B
And, you know, to quote Spike, like, I might be love's, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. You know, compare that to the. The harbingers of the first Evil.
- [53:30]
A
Who's wearing.
- [53:31]
B
Wearing Jenny's face at this moment, you know, and angels. Like, I never had a chance to die of syphilis. Different vibes.
- [53:38]
A
Different vibes. Different vibes. Incredibly. Okay, so this is a section we're going to talk about. Even though we just stealthily did an amends section. We're going to stealthily. We're going to talk about two of our features favorites, and we've chosen season two, episode six, Band Candy, written by Jana Spenson, directed by Michael Lang. And then we're going to Talk about Season 2, Episode 12, Helpless, written by David Fury, directed by James Conner. Okay, so Band Candy, the episode Television. All of the bad babies who know Buffy were so excited for. For Mallory to get to I. Joy of my lifetime when you told me you were watching Band Candy, like, genuinely joy of my lifetime. Before we get to all of Mallory's thoughts, which is key, so key to all of our experiences through Buffy here, first and foremost, I just want to say welcome to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Jane Espenson, a crucial member of the writing staff who has, like, once, you know, the episodes that she's written Band Candy, Gingerbread later this season. Earshot in season four, Pangs, A New Man, Superstar, Conversations with Dead People, Storyteller, and the infamous Double Meat Palace. They can't all be winners, but, like, Jane has, like, a very specific kind of even zippier than Whedon, zippy style to how she writes her episodes. And so I feel like you can tell when it's a Jane episode. And this is such a perfect introduction for that tone that she brings to the show. An opportunity to meet a younger Joyce as well, which I think is important because this is like, actually a very good Joyce season. Like a really good Joyce season. Will you be slaying Joyce Asks in a different episode? Yeah. Molly Rubin.
- [55:24]
B
Yeah.
- [55:25]
A
Take us through your experience watching Band Candy.
- [55:28]
B
So I've not yet seen Double Meat palace, but let me just say, when I got to watch Band Candy, after having watched it once for the second time, it was Double Meat palace for me because.
- [55:41]
A
Just.
- [55:42]
B
Okay. So you. When we started doing the rewatch, immediately I texted you about how hot I thought Giles was. It was on a. A thread we were on with Mahoney.
- [55:55]
A
He.
- [55:56]
B
He was like, we. I'm paraphrasing him. He's like, we should have seen this coming. And you were like, I did.
- [56:01]
A
Right.
- [56:01]
B
Like, nothing about my experience with Giles has surprised you at all. You know me well. I mentioned that to set say there are moments in life where you feel seen and known and understood.
- [56:19]
A
And.
- [56:22]
B
I posted on Instagram our text exchange.
- [56:26]
A
Part.
- [56:26]
B
Part, in the interest of full disclosure, not all.
- [56:31]
A
We still have careers to maintain.
- [56:33]
B
You know, all that was good for public consumption. But part of our text exchange, after I watched Band Candy for the first time, like, immediately after.
- [56:42]
A
Yeah.
- [56:43]
B
Took some screenshots posted on Instagram and, you know, nowhere in there did it say the words Band Candy. But I was basically like, this is the most important television of my life. Yeah. And forever changed, etc. Etc. And. And I just want to say to the, Like, I don't know. I didn't do the math. I didn't crunch. Crunch the numbers. But I'm going to say, like, 92% of the commenters, the bad babies, the rider dies. Who are like, band Candy.
- [57:17]
A
Yeah. For those who who, like, maybe are listening to this podcast and not watching Buffy, that's fine. You're allowed to do that. Or, you know, don't remember what Band Candy is. Band Candy is the episode where I'm watching in. In a complicated pyramid scheme of events, the adults of Sunnydale are given chocolate that turns them into horny teenagers in some cases, like, more like toddlers, it depends. But, like, immature versions of themselves. And that includes, most crucially, Rupert Giles and Joyce Summers, who turn into teenage versions of themselves and are quite horny for each other inside of this episode. We get a ripper version in this episode. The accent changes, the look changes, the attitude changes. It's some incredible television. It is what a lot of people wanted Mallory to experience when they found out how she felt about Giles. I.
- [58:20]
B
This was better than porn. Like, this was just so thrilling and so satisfying in a genuine and deep way. And I should say, say, like, as you know, it's canon. It's House of Our canon. I find stuffy Giles, you know, as people like to say, incredibly sexy and incredibly.
- [58:43]
A
You and Willow both would put his photo up in your locker. Yeah.
- [58:53]
B
There was something about seeing him in the white T shirt with the sleeve folded around the pack of cigarettes and the must up hair. And he takes the glasses off and he's smoking cigarettes and he's bopping his head listening to records on the floor. Yeah. He's breaking down shop windows to go get Joyce the item that she covets. He's disarming a cop. He is obviously, in some sections, gently. I should finish the fit. Watch the jeans, the boots and the plaid shirt wrapped and tied around his waist. Gently kissing Joyce in some sequences, like at the nursery in the hospital, very passionately kissing her. And some other things at other points of the episode. We're gonna talk about all this more. Just seeing him in this ripper element was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life as a television viewer. And for a lot of reasons. One, because it's sexy and he looks hot. Yeah, not that deep, Right. But also because genuinely, I think that the concept of this episode, it was fun to see Ithan again. It's interesting to watch, like the Mr. Trick mayor dynamic developing, all that.
- [60:13]
A
Snyder's really fun in this episode.
- [60:15]
B
Brutal beat for Snyder. And he's like trying to pick up Joyce, you know, he's like. He's like going studies.
- [60:21]
A
She's like, yeah, dude, have you seen.
- [60:25]
B
Have you seen.
- [60:26]
A
She's like, have you seen him? Also, have you seen me in this outfit?
- [60:31]
B
Brutal stuff for Snyder. But like, I. We've talked about this before in like, other stories, but one, I really love when characters have to, like, look at their parents or their teachers or something.
- [60:43]
A
Like that in a new way.
- [60:43]
B
I have really vivid memories of, like, being at the mall in, you know, high school and seeing a teacher there and just being like, oh, what? It's interesting because I think I have a slightly different relationship to that kind of aspect of this than as a child of divorce. My parents were just dating when I was growing up, right. So I was kind of always confronting that in a different way. But I still just. I like that and I like watching. So inside of this episode, obviously it's really, really fun and titillating to watch Joyce and Giles behave this way, et cetera. But I really love, loved, you know, like, Oz is like, this is like a sobering mirror. It's just really fun to watch the other characters as Willis. Like, you know, is anyone. Is there a doctor here? Then her doctor gets up shirtless on the stage. She's like, I think that is my doctor. You know, all of that is just really great and really fun. And Giles is just. I mean, this Is like he is walking sex in this episode. He just is.
- [61:48]
A
So. Something I warned Mallory we would be doing is I'm gonna ask her to rank the 10 horniest moments in Band Candy. I could not limit my list to 10. So I will give you 15 candidates. Okay.
- [62:01]
B
I'm excited.
- [62:02]
A
This is the. The caption that you sent me last night when you were watching Band Candy. It was already on my list. Yeah. But when Joyce and Giles are lying to Buffy and claiming that they're trying to figure out how to coordinate her schedule. Schedule. Yeah. The line is it'll be tight, but I think we can fit it. Yep. Right. Yeah.
- [62:20]
B
That's gonna be high on the list, I'm telling you right now.
- [62:23]
A
Okay.
- [62:23]
B
It's not number one, though. But it's gonna be high on the list.
- [62:26]
A
I really like my initial list. I was just. Just keeping a rolling list as I rewatched. The episode was like 30 entries long. So some of these are consolidated. So I'm just gonna give. One entry on the list is just gonna be the fit, which is the rolled up cigarettes in the sleeve, the tied up flannel shirt, the absolutely filthy earring, the lewd eyeliner, the hair. All of it together. Right. Like, that's one. Okay. Listening in. Record to records in Giles apartment and lighting two cigarettes at once. One of which is for Joyce. Right?
- [62:56]
B
Yeah.
- [62:56]
A
Joyce saying, so how come they call you Ripper? And he says, would you like to know?
- [63:01]
B
That's number one. I'm sorry?
- [63:03]
A
That's number one.
- [63:04]
B
That's gonna be number one.
- [63:05]
A
I think the B and E. Just to get Joyce the coat that she wants. Right. Grabbing Joyce and laying her down on the top of a cop car.
- [63:17]
B
Oh, my God.
- [63:18]
A
Grabbing, like, clutching her to him. Right? Yeah. Later, Joyce producing the handcuffs with Buffy saying, never tell me. Right.
- [63:27]
B
Very memorable.
- [63:28]
A
Really good.
- [63:29]
B
Yep.
- [63:30]
A
Giles's shirt rides up when he gets excited about Ethan being attacked. And he sort of fist pumps in the air and says, yes in his shirt, which he has, like, cut the bottom off of to make a sort of, like, more cropped version of rides up. Just thought you might want to enjoy that. Okay. His accent. Yeah, you're my slayer. Go knock his teeth down his throat. Stuff like that. Really bad copy for me. Worse than spikes. Okay.
- [63:54]
B
Hey, you leave her alone.
- [63:56]
A
Stuff like that. Okay. The kisses. I'm gonna. I put this under one bucket. Making out with Joy so hard that they didn't notice a chocolate induced ride it next to them. And smooching Joyce gently in the hospital. Both together. Right.
- [64:09]
B
Oh, my God, that one is so hot.
- [64:12]
A
He lets out a low. I'm gonna say almost like a guttural Joyce, and grabs her hand and pulls her through the crowd to get to the chocolate. Right. That's. That was pretty high up for me personally, honestly.
- [64:24]
B
Yeah.
- [64:26]
A
Welcome to the list. Ethan Rain. I'm putting Ethan Rain's slutty red blouse that he wears in this episode on the list. It is, like, billowy buttoned low. Very good. He. He deserves to be on the list. We've mentioned this before. When we were doing Giles. Horny moments that we were a little perturbed by how often violent moments ended up on our horny Giles list. But still, Giles with a crowbar standing over Ethan and. Or kicking an acolyte in the face. Inside of this episode, I think were two good moments. And then lastly, Giles sopping wet in a white T shirt with. Which is how the episode closes out.
- [65:01]
B
Very memorable.
- [65:02]
A
Okay, I'm going to say dials.
- [65:04]
B
Entering the wet T shirt contest is important. Hmm. Okay. All right, boy. First of all, let me say thank you.
- [65:13]
A
Thank you.
- [65:15]
B
I think I probably will take this list that you just sent me and laminate it. Laminate it. Carry it in my wallet. Carry it in my underwear. Maybe I'll have it printed on a quilt and wrap it around me at night and in bed. All of the above, perhaps. Okay. I mean, the answer is kind of like they're all number one. Because, you know, Giles just. He has it. He does. And it's on display so powerfully here. I think I'm gonna put. It'll be tight, but we can. We can fit it. Oh, God. How am I gonna keep track of this? Let's see. Okay, I'm gonna keep that. I'm gonna put that at. Let's say four.
- [66:03]
A
Okay.
- [66:04]
B
I think. Let's put that at four.
- [66:06]
A
I'll start putting numbers over here.
- [66:08]
B
That feels. That feels right.
- [66:10]
A
Okay.
- [66:12]
B
I. I think that the.
- [66:15]
A
Oh, man.
- [66:16]
B
Or should that be five? Because how do I not have the fit in the top three? Like, it has to be just. The fit is so key to the OR aura. Right. Just oozing. Okay, so let's put the. We might have to change some of these numbers. Let's put just the fit and all of the various accessories. Let's put that at three for now.
- [66:40]
A
Okay.
- [66:40]
B
And I want to put. Oh, boy. This is so hard. Much like the erection that it can fit. I kind of want to put. So how come they call you Ripper? Wouldn't you like to know at one? Honestly, because it is so fucking filthy.
- [67:00]
A
It is.
- [67:02]
B
I really. I gasped and rewound and listened to him say that. I'm not gonna tell you how many times in a row. And guess what? My husband was just sitting right there next to me on the couch as I did it.
- [67:16]
A
Did Adam get to rewind any faith scenes? Did he get to request any repeats?
- [67:20]
B
He didn't do any wants on his own, Doc. Okay, so that's number one. I think it has to be. I guess that means I'll probably put grabbing Joyce and laying her down on the top of the cop car at 2. Right.
- [67:31]
A
Okay.
- [67:32]
B
Because that was like.
- [67:36]
A
That took my breath away. Obviously.
- [67:38]
B
That took my breath away. Okay, so we have. How come.
- [67:42]
A
How? Calmly calling Ripper number one, grabbing Joyce number two, the fit. Number three. It'll be tight, but we think. Think we can fit it Number four. That's where we are right now.
- [67:52]
B
Okay. At number five. Five. Let's do the handcuffs at number five.
- [67:58]
A
Never tell me number five.
- [68:03]
B
Just so good. Let's do the records at 6.
- [68:11]
A
Great.
- [68:12]
B
I thought that was so hot.
- [68:13]
A
Very good.
- [68:14]
B
That was. Boy, that really took me to a time in life where you're just like, let's sit here and listen to music and get high and definitely want to each other. Oh, oh, to be young.
- [68:25]
A
And then he's just trying to be so cool and impress him. Very sweet.
- [68:31]
B
That's great, Joyce. It is an amazing Joyce episode. I love the Burt Reynolds line. Later. Wait. So all the kisses are bundled in with the cop car? One. That's all. All the kisses are there.
- [68:42]
A
Well, there's making out with Joyce so hard they didn't notice a chocolate induced right next to them. And smooching Joyce gently in the hospital. So the kisses versus the cop car. Ravishing, I would say are separate.
- [68:53]
B
Okay, then I already need to amend the list. I think them. I think I need to put the other kisses.
- [68:59]
A
Yeah.
- [69:00]
B
At six and move the records down to seven.
- [69:04]
A
Got it.
- [69:04]
B
Because I thought that the kisses were very memorable. Buffy walking past them making out is incredible. It's just. Boy, it's very sexy. And there's like a gentleness later that I found quite compelling.
- [69:18]
A
And then obviously the tender smooches in the hospital. Hospital is just like. Yeah.
- [69:22]
B
I mean, honestly, 6 feels really low to me for the. The kisses, but I don't. What do I. What can I move? What. What did I have above? It could move down.
- [69:29]
A
You can't.
- [69:30]
B
Nothing. And the top five is kind of unimpeachable, honestly. So we're up to Seven. So I have three more. I have three more slots. Ripper has a slot, and I have three more. Hmm.
- [69:48]
A
Hmm.
- [69:49]
B
With respect to Ethan, he's not gonna make my top 10. Obviously, I think it's appropriate that he's here and that we. We remark upon, you know. Wait, can I ask you, is it. Is Giles's tattoo. Speaking of Ethan, is that tattoo being visible part rolled up in the fit?
- [70:03]
A
We'll put it in the fit. Yeah.
- [70:04]
B
Okay, great.
- [70:04]
A
Great.
- [70:05]
B
Because that would have. I probably would have had to have that as an entry otherwise.
- [70:07]
A
Sure.
- [70:08]
B
Let's do sopping Wed the t shirt at 8.
- [70:14]
A
Great.
- [70:20]
B
I mean, I'm sick. I was like, you know what's really unpleasant? When you fall into a pool or some body of water.
- [70:25]
A
And jeans.
- [70:26]
B
I was like, take those off. Take them off. Who walks around in wet jeans? Come on.
- [70:30]
A
It's just not classic. It's the classic Sawyer.
- [70:33]
B
Exactly. There's a very. There's a big, this is not the time or place because you will never be watching another episode of Landman, but there's a really big, big we're wearing jeans and pools thing happening on Landman right now. Maybe I'll send you some.
- [70:47]
A
There's a gift exchange at the end of this year if you want to burn another episode on making me watch Landman. You know what you have to do.
- [70:53]
B
We'll see. We'll see. Okay, so I have two more spots.
- [70:56]
A
You've got accent, the shirt riding up when he says Joyce really low and grabs her hand. And then general violence.
- [71:03]
B
Let's do the Joyce and the beanie.
- [71:05]
A
Okay.
- [71:05]
B
Let's do Joyce at nine.
- [71:07]
A
Yep. And.
- [71:13]
B
I have a general violence attend. Let's just. Let's stay on our corner. Why abandon it now? How does that feel?
- [71:20]
A
I mean, I'm gonna read the list back to you and I'm gonna. I'm gonna see how you feel about it. Okay.
- [71:24]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [71:24]
A
We're gonna start at the bottom. Number ten. General violence. Yeah. Number eight, that low gutter old Joyce number. Sorry, that was number nine. Number eight, Joel Giles stopping wet in the white T shirt. Number seven, listening to records in Giles apart at once, one of which is for Joyce. Number six, making out with Joyce so hard they didn't notice a chocolate induced ride next to them and switching Joyce gently in the hospital. Number five, Joyce producing the handcuffs. Number four. It'll be tight, but we think we can fit in. Number three, the fit, including the cigarettes, the earring, the eyeliner, the tattoo, the flannel, et cetera, et cetera. Number two, Grabbing Joyce and laying her down on top of a cop car and ravishing her. And number one. So how come they call you Right Ripper? What you like to know. How do you feel? Is that your list?
- [72:12]
B
I think that feels really good. I also want to note that on the. In the stretch where we are on the. After he has disarmed the cop, she is saying he reminds her of Burt Reynolds. And then he places her down on the hood of the cop car to. Ravish is a perfect word. Joyce removes her gum.
- [72:32]
A
Yeah.
- [72:33]
B
Which is like an element of this.
- [72:34]
A
And just sends it in another.
- [72:37]
B
Another pl. We are. It is time to fuck. Very memorable. I think that list feels right. Are there any of the contenders that didn't make it that you just. You think it's. It's not right? No, I think your top 10.
- [72:50]
A
You're obviously the authority on this, and I. I think you've done admirably. All right. And on that note of scholarship from mallory, the top 10 horniest moments of band candy. That brings us to season two, episode 12, Helpless, which we are gonna start with a clip.
- [73:05]
B
You have a father's love for the child, and that is useless to the cause. It would be best if you had no further contact with the slave.
- [73:16]
A
I'm not going anywhere. Buffy's, like, battered face while they're talking. It's just devastating. Okay, so there are any number of season three episodes we could have chosen here. There's, like, amends, as we already discussed. Revelations. Revelations, as in episode seven. We noted that was a trend. We did angel, which is episode seven in season. We did Lie to Me, which is episode seven, and season two, Revelations is an excellent episode seven in season three. But given, like, how much we care about Giles and the Giles Buffy relationship, it felt like Helpless. What was really interesting to me, this is like a stunner of an episode to me in my memory. I think Crolic is a really, really good villain of the week.
- [73:57]
B
Scary.
- [73:58]
A
And all of this stuff with Giles and Buffalo Buffy is, like, devastating, but really crucial for another big theme of this season, which we'll talk about. I was stunned to find out that, like, a lot of people, like, when they do their full rankings of Buffy episodes, like, actually have this ranked, like, pretty middling, you know, pretty low. Like, they're episodes, like, the Wish actually is, like, often, like, very high up on people's lists. Yeah, it's a great episode, but I was surprised that this is not, like, a More. And I think it's because trying to figure out Why? I think it's because there's, like, a couple of other side plots inside of this episode that maybe make it feel less like a cohesive core drilled down on this. But when you get to the Giles, Buffy, the Watchers Council, all of that stuff, that stuff is so, so strong. Valerie, what was your initial impression, reaction to watching Helpless?
- [74:53]
B
I think this episode is fantastic. I really loved it. It spoilers again, will come up in a number of my categories. And, you know, I love the concept here. I think this idea of just removing even the Giles element. Buffy confronting Buffy, being forced to confront life without powers and the way that you can. Can spend years of your life, afternoons, evenings, mornings, resenting some aspect of the burden you have to carry, what you have to do, right? The weight that is on you. And then when you are confronted with having that ripped away, who are you? Right? So I thought that. And I thought that the things Buffy said about that and Buffy's journey of introspection in this episode, in terms of just the idea of powers and being the Slayer and her role in her body, in her home, in her school and her community, in her life, in the world, was really brilliant. You add on to this the Council and this idea of, like, I am a part of a thing that treats me as. As a tool to be wielded, a. A box to check off a list, Right? A rite of passage. Well, sure, but I'm a person, you know, like, that aspect of it. You are a part of a thing that you don't have access to. And what does it mean for not only other people, but a body and institution to attempt to govern the flow of your life? Fascinating. And then, of course, the Giles part of it. And I loved every scene between them in this episode. I was, like, moved to tears more than once in this episode. I won't get into the particular lines here just because I'll come back to them in some of my categories. But a number of real doozies that hit me hard in real time and have stuck with me since, and I know will stick with me. Giles, the way that he is confronting his responsibility and what Buffy means to him versus what his role as a Watcher means to him. Not only is that just, like, incredibly moving and sad and harrowing, and you're with Buffy, you're like, how could you do this thing? How could you think this was right? You know, and how could you justify this to yourself? And then, of course, when he shifts into a rejection and into a defense, and in terms of his relationship with Buffy, she's like, you're wondering, like, is it too late? What has been ruptured here?
- [77:41]
A
Is this betrayal? Can you come back from this? Yeah.
- [77:44]
B
What has been ruptured here that maybe will be difficult to repair. Right. Like, when you chip away at trust, you can't always put the marble back into place. Sometimes the veins are too deep. And so introducing that element, I think is really harrowing and fascinating. But the thing I loved about it most obviously, it's twofold. One just thinking about their father daughter relationship, especially in this stretch where Buffy's own father has ghosted her. Basically, he's like, I send a flower. Flower tickets.
- [78:10]
A
We have some notes.
- [78:11]
B
What the fuck, man? And, like, a letter. I mean, come on.
- [78:14]
A
Right?
- [78:14]
B
You can't even call. And the sweetness of Buffy, like, opening in the early stretches of this episode, like, you know, this is a thing families do together. Like asking Giles to do this with her, because that is after Joyce is like, I could take you. Buffy's like, I'm good. Right. Just to be reminded of who they are to each other and then have that compromised through the Council. But also Giles own. You know, he has agency in this. Right? Right. So there's that. What that and then. And then him centering the import of that relationship. The other aspect of it that I found so poignant and impactful is that so much of. Especially season one, but really the journey so far across three seasons is like, obviously, Giles loves Buffy. Giles cares deeply about Buffy. That's very central to the court of the text in this episode. He has often been the voice of balance. Right. Here is how you can. You must not only can and should, but must think about how do you navigate the push and pull of your own desire and like the impulses of your heart and your emotion against what is required? And for him to be in that position here. Right. And have to ultimately decide. Ultimately, not have to, but choose to decide. I care more about this person than what I'm supposed to do. I thought was so beautiful. Not only because I care about both of them in the relationship, but because it really put him in the Buffy seat. She's often a character who behaves that way.
- [79:49]
A
Would you say love is the death of duty? Is that something you would say? And would you say.
- [79:56]
B
I would. Would you say, say, conflict in the human heart. It's the only thing worth writing about.
- [80:02]
A
Who knows? I might. Beautifully said. Thank you so much for that. So, yeah, it's Buffy's 18th birthday. Another crappy birthday for Buffy Summers. She is as she says in this episode, like, the important thing is I kept up my special birthday tradition of gut wrenching misery and horror. We talk about the metaphors of teenage life inside of Buffy. So, like, the 18th birthday for Americans is this huge, you know, you can vote, you can do, you know, a number of things. So this is, of course, a rite of passage moment for Buffy. This. This line from Giles, it's a test Buffy given to a slayer once she, if she reaches her 18th birthday, is so grim. Yeah. Because many, many of these teenage girls never make it to 18. And though I will say spoiler alert, I don't think this is ever explicitly said anywhere in the rest of the series. But my take on this rite of passage, which is to depower Buffy and then put her in an extremely perilous situation to see if she can pass that test. My interpretation of this is that the Watchers Council is almost hoping that the Slayers won't stop, survive this rite of passage because they prefer their slayers young and teenage and malleable. Right. Like, if you have a slayer who makes it past her 18th birthday into her 20s, you have less and less of an ability to control her the way that they control these young women who are extremely powerful.
- [81:42]
B
You know, this is like, basically Vecna's playbook, right?
- [81:45]
A
Exactly. Children are malleable, but just sort of like this idea of, like, they actually don't want her to pass this test at the end of the day. And again, that's my interpretation. It's not. I don't think that's canon anywhere, but that's how I view it. Really quickly. I just want to shout out something again that my pals Jenny and Kristen did on the buffering watch for season three. That started when I. When I did the Lovers Walk episode with them. They called it Angel Commander Combustion. Combustion Watch. And it's just that angel is, like, constantly, like, sitting next to a roaring fire in Sunnydale, California. A roaring fire or candles lit everywhere. Now, like, are humans also flammable? Yes, but there's something about vampires that make them more flammable than humans. And I just, like, would not be so close to an open flame were I Angel personally. And we start this episode where he and Buffy are doing one of their many sweaty. We're not having sex, but we're kind of having sex. I'm stabbing you with a baguette. Not the most phallic image inside of this episode, actually.
- [82:50]
B
Amazing.
- [82:50]
A
There's just candles everywhere, and it's just, Angel, Take care of yourself. You Came back from hell. Put out the fires. Fire safety is important in California, man. Truly. But I bring you now, Mallory, to what I'm calling the unfortunate crystal dildo. What did you think when you first saw this phallic amethyst that Buffy has to, I will say, handle inside of this episode?
- [83:14]
B
Not too proud to admit. This is another thing I took a picture of and texted to you. Oh, God. So this is, like, before we come to understand that, you know, before Buffy's first, like, dizzy spell. Before, certainly before we understand in full what is happening. The way that Giles. Buffy, like, doesn't want to pay attention. He's like, I'm aware of your distaste of studying vibratory st. I mean, I just. I'm sorry. Like, vibratory stones is so horny as, like, a thing to say. I was just like. It took me a minute to even lock in on what was happening because I was so distracted by that. And then Buffy is. And. And many. There are. There's a lot of phallic imagery with the crystals, but Buffy is certainly handling the most overtly penile. And it's like, not just holding it, but. But, like, jacking it off, basically caressing it.
- [84:17]
A
One would say, yeah.
- [84:18]
B
And then says, I just have some energy to burn.
- [84:23]
A
Where's Faith? Faith is out of town. Would that Faith were there to help her burn some energy.
- [84:29]
B
Great stuff.
- [84:31]
A
I really love that we spent so much in season two talking about the Lie to Me episode and that idea of. Especially as it pertains to Jial and Buffy. So returning to that Lie to Me theme, which is something that this isn't the first time his lies to her in this episode, which are so devastating and violating, obviously. But we already saw Giles do this earlier this season in Faith, Hope and Trick, when he lies to her about needing to know the particulars of where angel was when she stabbed him in the Akathla and all that sort of stuff like that he's, like, lying to her in order to get her to tell him the truth or to process her experience. Right. Something that he reveals to Willow at the end of that episode. But I just think that, like.
- [85:14]
B
I'm.
- [85:14]
A
Lying to you for your own good. And then here he hits the wall, the limit of what that actually means. How far can you take an idea like that into? And what does it betray? Also, there's the fairy tale element of this episode that I love, the Little Red Riding Hood sort of motif that comes through. Of course, we get it in a much more overt way in Gingerbread and it will come back. This idea of Buffy in a Little Red Riding Hood aspect will come back again. And is the fairy tale stuff in season four, I think, is super interesting. So it's interesting to see it sort of planted and seeded here.
- [85:49]
B
Fun.
- [85:50]
A
But I think the main thing that Helpless underlines for me is that other, in addition to the doppelganger, dual nature theme of the season, which exists inside of this episode, of course, because there's Buffy with her powers and there's Buffy without her powers. Like, you know, she throws like a girl, right? She cannot defend Cordelia. She cannot. She's being sexually harassed in the street. Like, all this sort of stuff that's. There's that Buffy and then the Buffy we know they're two different people. And then there's, like, the question of Giles, who are you? I don't even know who you are. Buffy says to him, right? Like, so who is Giles? And you have a father's love for her, not a Watcher's love. Like, what is the nature of identity here? So that's, like, the main core theme of the season, I would say. But this other one is this idea of authority and undermining authority, right? So, like, the idea that some people who are supposed to protect Buffy are those who would place her in danger entirely erodes what, if any, faith we had in the first place in the Watchers Council, right? We already had some notes for them. Now I have, like, volumes, libraries of notes for the Watchers Council. But this idea that, like, we'll get to the mayor, of course, in the back half of the season as, like, this authority figure and what that means for Sunny Dale. But Band candy, the adults are children. There's Ken, the character in Anne, who's supposed to, like, protect these runaway teens and is exploiting them. There's Gwendolyn Post in Revelations, who comes up to, like, absolutely gut faith. You're an idiot, right? Like, to. To look to me for protection or authority or something like that. The parents of Gingerbread who turn into a violent turn against Willow and Amy and Buffy and turn into a violent mob, you know? And it's just this perfect through line of the season about teenagers who are, like, teetering on the edge of adulthood, right? You're 18. Are you an adult? And it goes exactly to the story you told about seeing your teachers at the mall. Like, this exposing of authority of the adults in the room as unreliable, exploitative, like all these other things. And this real scales from the Eyes experience for Buffy inside of this episode does she have a relationship with Giles on the other side of the episode? Spoiler alert for people who haven't seen the rest of the show. Yes. Like, this is not the end of the. Of the Giles and Buffy relationship, but something is undeniably altered inside of it, I think, forever after this. And so I just think that. I just think that idea, as Buffy turns 18 is so smart, and I just love this show. Anything you want to say about. No.
- [88:31]
B
I think it's a brilliant observation from you, and it's a brilliant decision on the show's part because you have something like the band candy part of it. It's like, oh, right, my parents or my neighbors or my friend's parents, they're people, too. They like music and they get horny, and there's that part of it. But then this other side of it, this fallibility, the flawed nature of the people who you would look to when you were young to have the answer or to know what was right, or, at a minimum, to care enough to try to keep you from harm. Right. And I think what's, like, particularly juicy and delicious about it here is that Buffy, in particular, I say all of the characters to an extent. I like. I really liked getting a little glimpse in Gingerbread of Willow's dynamic with her mom, finally, that, like, you know, gets into some of this as well, and she's like, I'm not like one of your research papers. Like, I'm not an age group on Willow. Right?
- [89:23]
A
Yeah.
- [89:24]
B
And, you know, maybe there was a time when. Well, I'm sure there was a time when Willow was younger. She's like, my mom is fucking smart, and that's dope. You know, like, look at how accomplished my mom is, and I'm really proud. And it's not like that stops being true, but what does it mean to have the. To get to the point of your own life where you're like, why don't you acknowledge that I am, like, I am a fully realized person, or at least I'm on the journey of becoming one. And I want you to acknowledge that and hopefully be a part of. So we get it in so many different ways. And I love that. Like, because our Scoobies, and obviously Buffy in particular, often, you know, whether it's with Giles or with Joyce or Snyder, they're all different versions of it and flavors of it inside of the story. There are so many moments when Buffy's.
- [90:08]
A
Like.
- [90:10]
B
I don't really need you to tell me what to do. Like, I'm the Slayer. Like, I'm Good, actually. Right. Faith, obviously, is just a dynamo on that front. And so to not fully go to that place, like, to show us how devastating it would be to feel like the person who was supposed to be not just an advisor and a guide and a source of wisdom, but, like. Like, say, like a protector and someone who loves you and gives a. About whether you're okay to have that called into question. I don't really think, like, you grow out of caring about that or needing it. And so the things you need in the way you need them change. But the fact that you want somebody to, like, love you never does. And so I just think that's a really, really smart way for the show to examine that for characters who, in theory, could be positioned as, like, I don't need that at all. It's, like, part of why the show is so mesmerizing to me is they're so rooted in the pull of their heart and their soul, even as they're doing these extraordinary things. And so it makes sense to me that that manifests with, like, Buffy and Angel, but it's just as appropriate to me that it's there in a different way, obviously, with Buffy and Joyce and Buffy and Giles, et cetera. So I just love this, to be clear. You know, I really agree with you.
- [91:26]
A
That this has always been a theme of Buffy. Like, Buffy defying her mom or defying Snyder or whatever the case may be has always been the case. It feels more systemic this season that there are just sort of institutions that are letting us down or warping their own sense of power, et cetera, et cetera. So, like, what is. What is. Is the local Sunnydale government up to? Or what is the Watchers Council up to? Or what is the PTA ups to? You know what I mean? It's just, like. It's a bit more structural exploration of that same theme. So I just. I just really love that. And, like, if you think about the various Scoobies, like, I love Willow's mom. Like, Gingerbread is often sort of discounted as, like, not a very good episode, I think. But I really, really like it. And I love seeing Willow and her mom's dynamic. And I wish we had more of Mrs. Rosenberg and, like, Xander's parents. Like, you know, there's a moment in Amends where Xander's talking about sleeping outside, and Cordelia, who's pissed at him at this point, is like, oh, I thought you did that to escape, you know, your shitty family. Right, Ander Confidence.
- [92:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [92:33]
A
We see Xander in a Sleeping bag outside in the snow. We'll get stuff about Cordelia's parents later in the season. You know what I mean? Like, this idea of, like, you're the parents of these particular children sort of not being. And Joyce, I mean, Joyce fucks up, but, like, Joyce is actually, I think, one of the most solid parents that exists. And especially inside of this episode, the moments that we, the moment that we loved in school Hard in season two, where she's, like, proud of Buffy and how Buffy comports herself. And inside of this episode, too, she's so excited at the end of Helpless to tell the other Scoobies, like, how Buffy figured out how to defeat Kralik with her wits. You know, she, she uses her brains to get out of there, and, and Joyce is so proud of her for that. And I, I just love that. Anything else we want to say? I mean, the, the, the ending with Buffy letting Giles, like, with a very weirdly dry towel, dabbing at the wounds on her face is, like, incredibly important to me. Anything else you want to say about Helpless?
- [93:38]
B
I'll circle back to some of it in some of the categories. But, yeah, just a fantastic episode. I, I think this is the right breaking point for, for the pod. This is a, this is a crucial, crucial moment.
- [93:48]
A
But I think this is a really good one because then we'll get into. We'll be really in the other faith part of the story, in the part two. Okay, let's go now then, to our superlatives. All right, so as we mentioned, we've removed the bad episode. You'll go to bat four category. But have no fear, Double Meat palace and Beer Bad fans. It shall return in next. In other seasons, I promise. We have a lot of the same categories, but a few new ones. Just. We're mixing it up here in season three. But don't worry, the Spike category is still here because, as it should be. He's only here once, but we're going to celebrate him being here. Do not doubt it. Okay, I, I, I'm gonna go first because I have a clip on Favorite line. Speaking of Spike. Take it away, Carlos. Love isn't brains, children. It's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will.
- [94:43]
B
I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.
- [94:47]
A
Iconic Season 3, Episode 8, Lovers Walk. Honestly, like, one of the best episodes.
- [94:51]
B
So good.
- [94:52]
A
I love this episode. If we were allowed to do longer clips, I would have done that full speech. Because you're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight and you'll shag and you'll hate each other until it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. I just. That whole thing, Marsters, is so good in this episode. And I have not completely sourced this information, but apocryphally, perhaps that is the episode that decided that he would be coming back, like, in a more regular capacity for the rest of the show. So this is like, he's, like, I got one more shot to, like, show them that Spike is worth keeping around. He really delivers inside of Lovers Walk. But love isn't brains, children. It's blood. Blood screaming inside you to work its will. And maybe love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it, is just, like, the most fun thing ever. And it's so good. So that's my favorite line that I wanted to call out here. Spurlatives is often an opportunity for us to, like, shout out episodes that we didn't spend more time on. So I wanted to give Lovers Walk some love here. What's your.
- [95:58]
B
That's a great book. And I just love that. That whole episode. He's amazing in that episode. That whole episode is good. And quite, Quite painful. I just love, too, the idea of, like, your nominal enemy providing pretty crucial insight and perspective. Yeah, it's great.
- [96:13]
A
Which the mayor will do in. In the next part that we talk about.
- [96:18]
B
Okay. As usual, I couldn't limit myself to one, so I have a short list. Yeah, I have some Runner.
- [96:22]
A
Runners.
- [96:23]
B
Yeah.
- [96:23]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [96:24]
B
But I do. I do have a. I'm torn between two. I think I have a winner. And then I have, like. Maybe I'll start with my winner. Okay. From helpless. So not from an episode we haven't talked about. But then my. Some of my other contenders are. This is another one that I texted you. You know what destroyed me in that episode? Episode when Buffy says, I can't be just a person. I can't be helpless like that I can't be just a person. What an incredible line. And what a. What a massive idea. Because we're all just people, whether or not you're the Slayer. But to have that remove from your own power a thing that feels like. Whether it is like a portal to a different type of experience or whether it's armor that you can at least say, like, protects you from some of this other stuff. It's just like, when that's gone, when it's removed, when it's stripped away and all you have is the reminder that everything that's waiting for you every day is really hard. And of course, that was true for Buffy before, but I just think that's, like, so devastating and so there was something so sad about it and so beautiful and so true. Like, just the truth of the fear and the insecurity that drives not only a slayer who's confronting being with. Without her power, but any person I thought was just lovely. So that was my favorite line of the season. That was beautiful. Kind of like a related. I had, like, a couple Buffy nominees from Homecoming, from Episode five as well. And on that same sort of like, tonal front, I think when that. When the discussion of, like, well, why does this, like, matter to you so much? You know, I could pick up a yearbook someday and say, I was there. I went to high school, school and had friends, and for one moment, I got to live in the world and there'd be proof, proof that I was chosen for something other than this. Besides, I look cute in a tiara. But, like, for one moment, I got to live in the world. And it's. It's, you know, Buffy's journey with. And relationship to. The idea of, like, popularity is obviously core to the text across the seasons, but the. There's the really fun, like, you know, dick measuring with Cordelia and that aspect in. In. You know, I think another nominee for best line is you've awakened the prom queen. It's just really fucking funny.
- [98:42]
A
Yes.
- [98:43]
B
But the thing that is really driving this for Buffy is like, I need to be able to look at something that feels normal, right? That feels like the rhythm of a normal life.
- [98:51]
A
And I was here, right? Like, her. Her favorite teacher, not even knowing who she is or what. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like a. Yeah, that's so good.
- [99:01]
B
What are. What are some of the other runners up?
- [99:04]
A
Can I give you one from Anne?
- [99:05]
B
Please.
- [99:06]
A
Everyone's favorite, most quotable episode of Buffy Vampire Slayer. She's. She says in the vein of, like, who are you? Right. Which is the name of an episode this season, the I am no one sort of thing that the people who are trapped in hell are supposed to say. And then they get to her and she goes, I'm Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and you are. First time she ever says Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the show. And so it's just like, a really great Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And you are. I love that. Yeah.
- [99:30]
B
Oh, fun. That's a great one. I think this is mostly driven by sports and Cleveland being a rival sports City. But I got such a kick out of and the Wish and Alt. Jack Giles is, like, on the phone. He's like, yes, I'm aware that there's a great deal of demonic activity in Cleveland. I'm like, in Tracks. Tracks.
- [99:51]
A
And I have one more from Anne, actually. Weirdly, I love this. Hit me. What is hell but the absence of Hope? Not Scott Hope. Scott Hope. First time we've said his name on this podcast. Because that's how memorable he is.
- [100:03]
B
Let's just say Scott Hope is. I'm sorry, he's budget forward. He is. Yeah.
- [100:08]
A
It's true. He's better than Never kill a boy on a first date. The guy. The bland guy from season one.
- [100:15]
B
Yes.
- [100:15]
A
We'll continue to explore Buffy's taste in bland men. It's ongoing. But what is hell but the absence of Hope? I love that, you know? So good. You know, and when you think about. In that. In Anne, there's a shot of Buffy just, like, alone in her sad apartment, just, like, sitting on her bed, juxtaposed with the bustling activity of first back to school at Sunnydale. The camera's just, like, roving everywhere. It's just, like, life and everything. And then it's just like, Buffy, sad, all alone. What is hell but the absence of Hope? Is she not already in hell before she goes to a literal hell dimension?
- [100:52]
B
And then, how can that visual not be on our minds when we see Faith in a setting like that? And then when fucking Gwen. Gwendolyn Poe shows up, she's like, yeah, all those secret meetings. How does Giles let her have friends? And Faith is just like, do you care?
- [101:04]
A
Would you care to give me a pronunciation of the word Spartan? The way that Faith says it, I.
- [101:12]
B
Don'T think I possibly could. Spartan spot.
- [101:16]
A
I can't. I can't do it. Oh, man.
- [101:17]
B
Really funny.
- [101:18]
A
My.
- [101:18]
B
My other two nominees are both from a men's one of which we've already mentioned. It's not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man. I was like, this is electric. Wow. And then the wearing Jenny's face. You think you can fight me? I'm not a demon, little girl. I'm something that you can't conceive. The first evil beyond sin, beyond death. I am the thing the darkness fears. Very funny. When Buffy's, like, later in that scene, like, all right, I get it. You're evil. But I am the thing that darkness fears. Like, gave me a chill.
- [101:52]
A
It was great. I'm gonna have. I actually have, like, a weird Amount of Cordelia in my superlative.
- [101:58]
B
Oh, appropriate.
- [102:00]
A
But there's this. There's this weeding quote where he's like, make them cry, but then, by God, make them laugh. And Cordelia is, like, so often deployed to do that. Right? Like in helpless. I don't know who you are. And then Cordelia is like, oh, have we forgotten we lost our memories? Giles. Giles, Right. Really funny because you're, like, devastated. Then here comes Cordelia. That line, we get it, you're evil or whatever. Like I mentioned the if the apocalypse comes beast. Me was one of those, like always in the commercials that we get at your evil was also another, like, nice classic commercial clip. Any other favorite lines before we move on to. Okay, best villain of the week. I'm giving it to Jeff Kober as Karolik. I just think that Karolik is like, I don't know, very limited time. Really, really fun. Scary. It's very scary. I had the pleasure of informing Rob on Prestige and I'm you telling you now. Jeff Cober. He's in the pit season too. So get excited for some crolic in the pit season too.
- [103:04]
B
Doctor Patient. Don't tell tbd.
- [103:07]
A
I won't tell you.
- [103:08]
B
I mean, are scissors involved? I won't tell you what she did.
- [103:11]
A
With them very long spoons. I don't know. Who's your. Who's your villain of the week?
- [103:17]
B
Okay, so I. I have a. A tie between two. Because they're kind. They're kind of like, thematically linked through the idea of villains who prey upon something that is personal and sacred, but in different ways. So I'm tossing Gwendolyn Post from. Wow, I heard the Baltimore there. Gwendolyn Post. Gwendolyn Post. She's just gonna go down to the ocean, hunt and watch the O's. Gwendolyn Post. Maybe I'll just say Gwen from here.
- [103:45]
A
On.
- [103:47]
B
Faith's new watcher. I like. I was like, I love the. Like, they swear there was a memoir. Fucking Watchers Council.
- [103:55]
A
The.
- [103:57]
B
Obviously, this is very central in Helplessness we just talked about, but the way that this appearance and what happens in this episode tears down, you know, the idea of like, the sanctity of the watcher calls it into question. You know, I think also just the outrageous behavior toward Faith, which you already noted. The like a word of a word of advice. You're an idiot. And the way that Gwen Pitts all outside of obviously being there to take and use the.
- [104:21]
A
The glove. Right.
- [104:23]
B
Pitting Faith and Buffy against each other. Like that scene. I was just Talking about that, like, oh, yeah. Like, it's a. Giles lets her, like, have all these friends, which, of course, just makes Faith feel left out of all of that. And like, shit. Right. And then just the absolutely outrageous behavior toward Giles, bludgeoning him in the head so that he nearly died, clearly. But there's so constantly sniping at him. It's become a bit too amazing. American. How, frankly. How dare you?
- [104:53]
A
So good.
- [104:54]
B
I like when Giles is like, that was bracing.
- [104:56]
A
Yeah.
- [104:58]
B
Really, really great.
- [104:59]
A
Okay. I hate her.
- [105:00]
B
Yeah. So that's one. And then I. I thought that the. Everything with the First Evil and amends was great. And I will say I don't know what the future of the show holds. I am as certain as I have ever been about anything we've talked about that this is not the last we've seen of the first Evil. That just feels like an absolute lock. So technically, in the scope of the story, not eligible for Villain of the Week, but in these 12 episodes, the villain of the week. And I think it's great to see.
- [105:23]
A
Great to see Jenny again.
- [105:25]
B
Amazing to see Jenny. I hope that we keep finding ways to bring Jenny back in some way. But you'll never see me. But I'm everywhere. Every being, every thought, every drop of hate. And this idea that, like, whether it's Jenny or Daniel or the other faces, that angel sees something, the idea of this first Evil, something that is this old and this vast, that roots itself, then it's an unknowable force that roots itself in the most knowable thing for you. Right. The most personal regret and bitter torment and guilt and shame that you carry. That was great.
- [106:03]
A
Are you saying that you think the writers of the show would not be able to resist a character that can wear the face of any dead character that's ever existed on the show that.
- [106:13]
B
Feels like a lock. It's just a question, I guess, of how quickly the First Evil returns. Something you would do for how long?
- [106:20]
A
Maybe a later season. Sounds like a dream.
- [106:22]
B
I would do face after face. Yeah. I feel like. I feel very confident we'll be returning there. But it was very fun. What I assume is an introduction. Very fun introduction.
- [106:31]
A
And then inside of that episode, the, I guess, further affirmation of this idea of the powers that be. Right. Who made it, Snow and Sunnydale, this sort of thing. Okay. Okay. And runners up. I was Ethan Rain. Always a delight to see you. You're great. Okay, best fit. What do you have? What do you have here?
- [106:48]
B
I mean, obviously it's Giles's outfit. In Band Candy, to me, nothing is close. But so, because we already talked about that for so long, I will offer up another nominee here, which is in the wish.
- [107:02]
A
Correct. I mean, actually, there's two options in the wish that I would say.
- [107:08]
B
Yeah. Shout out Xander and all the leather. But to me, it's obvious, obviously. Vamp. Vampire Willow.
- [107:13]
A
Vampire Willow in the corset.
- [107:14]
B
Yes.
- [107:15]
A
My tie is not actually Xander. It's Cordelia's breakup fit.
- [107:19]
B
The, like, very good.
- [107:20]
A
Snake skin, like, very good, you know, two piece power suit that she wears when she goes to school. Yeah.
- [107:27]
B
Emerging from the car. That's like. Yeah. Great.
- [107:30]
A
Incredibly iconic, but yeah. Vampire Will on the corset.
- [107:34]
B
Unbelievable.
- [107:35]
A
So good.
- [107:37]
B
All right.
- [107:38]
A
Favorite new spot on the Sunnydale map. We get a street added to the map. A studio backlot sort of situation. Wow.
- [107:50]
B
A rare zoom chat from Carlos. That's how you know I know this means something. Vampire Willow is one of the best things to ever happen.
- [107:57]
A
Correct.
- [107:58]
B
See why it would be meaningful.
- [108:00]
A
Guess what? We'll talk about it more.
- [108:02]
B
What's your pick for favorite new spot on the Sunnydale Met?
- [108:04]
A
What do you have? It's a tie, but I'll just pick one in case you have the other one, but the Sun Cinema. The Sunnydale movie theater. It's an iconic location and I really enjoy the marquee and all of its opportunities.
- [108:19]
B
That's a great one. I like. Because of both of the putting. The in office, putting range and the very particular collection. Collection of items. The mayor's office.
- [108:36]
A
That's a fun.
- [108:36]
B
That's a fun mayor who just.
- [108:38]
A
I can't remember if it happens in this half of the season, but the mayor who diabolically just has like milk sitting out in a pitcher. I think that's in part two, but it's disgusting.
- [108:46]
B
That's not something that I'll allow. That's not something that I'll allow. But yeah, that's. That's a great one. I have a couple. A couple other nominees, but yeah, this is a lighter. Later, I think group of street, the.
- [108:57]
A
Movie theater and the Espresso pump. Those are. That's a great one. That's just like.
- [109:01]
B
That's a great one.
- [109:03]
A
Sunnydale. You know what I mean?
- [109:04]
B
To me, I liked exploring, like, just expanding our understanding of Willow's Home. Because I've always, you know, we've spent time in Willow's bedroom and I was like, in prior seasons, I was kind of like, let me tell you, I don't have kids. Let me tell you something. I wouldn't want My teenage daughter to have a door from the outside right into her bedroom, you know, so I'm like, what's the rest of this place look like? Right? And obviously we already talked about the stretch with Willow and her mom, but also like very meaningful scene between Willow and Oz in that living room and on that couch. So I liked getting to just see more of Willow's life and like her home, her home space. What else is on your list?
- [109:42]
A
That's. I mean, that's it. It's. The street is called Maplecourt and it is just iconic to me. It's one of those things where, like, you know, when you. When you go. When you're in LA and you go to like various studio backlots and you see something, you're like, oh, my God, it's the street from whatever. If I ever saw Maple Court, which I'm sure has been torn down, it doesn't exist anymore. But studio backlot that includes the espresso pump and the Sun Cinemas location. I would. I would, I would die. Simply die. All right. Rapid fire. Yeah. Last time this was a best Spike, Cordelia and Ozism category. We're replacing Spike with love and respect. He gets his own category. He's going to be fine with the mayor, Mayor Richard Wilkins. Welcome to the chat. So best Mayor, Cordelia and Ozism. Let's start with the mayor, Mallory Rubin. What do think? You.
- [110:27]
B
Okay, I have a couple contenders for the mayor and I have three from Homecoming. Now, you've spent a lot of time with me. You know how I feel about germs.
- [110:39]
A
Oh, yeah. The mayor as a germaphobe is like so Mallory coded. I could not even possibly tell you.
- [110:44]
B
I've got some notes for this guy, but this is not one of them. Right. You know, in Homecoming in episode five, he's lecturing Alan. He's like, after every meal and under your fingernails, Dirk gets trapped there and. And germs and mayonnaise. And that is what took it to God tier to me, because I. I don't mayonnaise. I don't. Just the way it moves, the way it looks. My dear mother said cleanliness is next to godliness. And I believed her. She never caught a cold. This is just like. I'm like, wait, am I. Do I like the mayor? I don't. But do I. So that was great. And then I quite enjoy. I quite enjoyed speaking of his office in Band Candy. He's talking to Mr. Trick and he's like, you know, see, that's what separates you from other. Other Politicians. I keep my promise, right? And we're getting. We're getting a sense of his vibe, right? And also some intriguing, tantalizing insights into what's. What's this guy. What's he involved in here? And then he takes, like, a skull from a shelf, sniffs it, and then says, where did I put the scotch? Kill me. Absolutely killed me.
- [111:53]
A
Oh, my God.
- [111:53]
B
That was a great one. That was a great one. And then when he's golfing and Lovers Walk, and he says, I would sell my soul for a decent short game. Of course, it's a little late for that. And then to Allan, I don't suppose I could offer your soul. Really? Help me on the green. Great stuff.
- [112:11]
A
M is from Lovers Walk. And they're talking about Spike, right? He says. Says, but I guess we're past that now. This year is too important to let a loose cannon rock the boat. And Alan says, should I have Mr. Trick send a committee to deal with this? And then the mayor says, loose cannon, rock the boat? Is that a mixed metaphor? Boats did have cannons, and a loose one would cause it to rock.
- [112:30]
B
Oh.
- [112:30]
A
Honestly, I don't know where my mind goes these days. Why don't you take care of that Spike problem? A committee, like you said.
- [112:36]
B
Incredible stuff.
- [112:37]
A
I love the mayor. This is, like, one of my favorite Buffy characters of all time. We'll talk about him so much more in part two of this season, but he's in four episodes in this stretch. Homecoming Band, Candy Lovers, Walker Gingerbread. And I think it's just like a really good, sort of, like, sprinkling in of someone who will become, like, increasingly important. And we talked about in season two, the various mentions of the mayor. So I think it's just like, really beautifully set up, the way they do it. Cordelia, my babe, what is your. What? Cordelia Isms. Do you want to drop here?
- [113:07]
B
I mean, it's always impossible to, like, pick because she has so many good lines all the time. Oh, God.
- [113:13]
A
Hmm.
- [113:15]
B
I liked it. Really liked an Ann. See, I have an an nominee, too. There you go. Anne's here. She's like, I. You know, she and Xander are both really excited, but nervous to see each other after the summer.
- [113:28]
A
Yeah.
- [113:28]
B
And, you know, she's kind of like, all right, I'm nervous to see him. But also, well, you know, who's gonna be in Sunnydale and the monsters? And then she says, then again, he's always been attracted to monsters. Just killed me. That was so great. I just thought that was amazing thing. I liked an episode in Episode five in Homecoming, when she says, he kind of gross on you like a cheap. Oh, God. Some great ones in Band Candy I loved. I mean, I can't believe we've made it two hours and haven't brought up the sats. Plenty coming on that front for both of us, I'm sure. But I liked when Cordelia is talking about the SATs and says, I'm looking forward to it. I do well in standardized tests. What, I can't have layers?
- [114:09]
A
That might be my.
- [114:09]
B
My pick, actually. That's a great one.
- [114:11]
A
It's really good. That was my runner up. My pick, though is in Homecoming, an incredible Cordelia episode, obviously amazing, when Cordelia runs up to Buffy, having asked to get a weapon. She runs up with a spatula and Buffy says, that's it. And Cordelia says, just this and a telephone. And Buffy goes, a telephone? And you didn't think that'd be helpful? And Cordelia goes, no, this is better for her. Then she just sort of like whacks the air with a spatula and realizes the telephone might be helpful for calling for help. Goes, oh, but the. The gesture with the spatula is like a really, really good Charisma Carpenter moment. Okay.
- [114:51]
B
Cordelia is amazing in these episodes and there's some really heart wrenching stuff. Obviously. I. On the comedy front, I also would throw out as a runner up in Revelations on the heels of Willow trying to remind everyone to use I statements. And Cordelia is like, I feel worried about me. That just killed me. That was like such a perfect Cordelia moment. I liked in the Wish when she meets Anya who compliments her bag. Is that Prada? And she's like, good call. Most people around here can't tell Prada from Payless. That took me back to like our intro to Cordelia season one, Softer side of Fears. Yeah, good stuff. Really good stuff.
- [115:29]
A
All right. And for aussisms.
- [115:31]
B
You have a clip.
- [115:32]
A
I have a clip. Well, gathering is Bri. Mellow song stylings. Shindig dip. Less mellow song stylings per half a large amount of malt beverage.
- [115:41]
B
And hoot Nanny.
- [115:43]
A
Chock full of hoot. Just a little bit of nanny. Yeah.
- [115:50]
B
Oh, man, the best.
- [115:51]
A
That's from Dead Man's Party. Chock full of hoot. And a little bit of Nanny is something that I say a lot to this day. That comes on the heels of Cordelia's iconic I'm the dip, which is just like a. A perfect Cordelia line. I have a few others, but what do you have here for us?
- [116:08]
B
Let's See, in an an is back, You know, because the scoopies are trying to. To do it on their own. Right? And just, you know, AA said, like, he thinks they're gaining. They're finding the rhythm. And Xander's like, we're losing half the vamps. And A says, yeah, but rhythmically. I love that. So funny.
- [116:34]
A
How did you feel about Sunnydale having a gymnastics team? The revelation that Sunnydale has a gymnastics team?
- [116:40]
B
You know, I, I. Anytime I'm introduced to a new team at Sunnydale, I'm unsurprised because it's just, to me, one more group that could lose some of its members in an episode like Go Fish or whatever the case may be.
- [116:56]
A
What does Larry say at the beginning of the season? Wait, I have it.
- [117:00]
B
Yeah, I do. I wrote this down. Okay. And Larry's excited about the football team's prospects. And he says if we can focus, keep disciplined and not have quite as many mysterious deaths, Sunnydale is going to roll.
- [117:22]
A
It's their year.
- [117:24]
B
It's there. So funny. And I obviously had the Hoot Nanny One as one of my nominees as well. And, you know, let's note that, by the way, in that stretch, that Oz, this poor cat. Let me just say this. You've been a near flawless guide through my Buffy journey. Sorry, you did not warn me that.
- [117:41]
A
There would be a cat death. Or Pat. I didn't warn you about Pat or the cat party. Yeah.
- [117:51]
B
Band candy. I already mentioned that. It's a sober mirror to look into. That was great. I also like Buffy, you know, in the.
- [117:56]
A
The.
- [117:57]
B
The throes of Satan. Dream, anxiety, dreams. Oz is like, this is all tricked antonyms. But this isn't the place really great. I enjoyed in Lovers Walk when Xander says. Because Oz has said, like, I see why. Why you'd be upset. That was my sarcastic voice. And then Xander says, you know, it sounds a lot like your regular voice. And Oz says, I've been told that best Oz is great.
- [118:24]
A
Um, I think my most like chocolate hoot and a little bit of Nanny has my heart. I think my most, like, imitated Oz line is when in Homecoming, when he says, as Willow goes, so goes my nation. Which is.
- [118:38]
B
It's a great one.
- [118:39]
A
A spin on a. As main goes, so goes the nation. But like, as Willow goes, so go is. Is a line that I steal and manipulate for whatever I need. But as Blank goes, so goes my nation is something that I say a lot. I love it. Faith, hopefully. And trick the way that Oz is just used to like. I mean, Oz is just Here, even though he's a senior last year. And they just sort of, like, lay it down there and breeze past it, and it's fine. Like, Seth Green can deliver anything. So, like, Oz is a werewolf. It's a long story. I got bit. Not that long. I guess it's really good. Or in Dead Man's Party when he goes, hey, so you're not wanted for murder anymore?
- [119:14]
B
And she goes, good.
- [119:15]
A
That wasn't drag. And we just, like, move on from there. He's just, like, really well used in that way. So it's.
- [119:22]
B
It's a really great. Really great character. Really great performance. I think that the. I like that we. I mean, you know, everything that happens with Xander, Willow, which. Maybe we'll have some other categories coming up here that allow us to talk about that a little bit more. But, you know, watching how Cordelia and Oz both respond to that and navigate it. And then where we find Willow and Oz, like, who have decided after Oz insists on the space that he needs to, like, try again. And then when Willow. I just loved how Oz behaved in the scene in Amends where Willow is like, I'm. I'm ready to have sex and Ozeri White's here.
- [119:58]
A
Yeah.
- [119:59]
B
I'm not. Yeah. And I just thought the, like, you know, the. How special are we talking? And then the way he said, like, that's pretty special. When we. When he realized what was going on, it was just such a great scene. Like, really. I already loved him, but it made me love it him even more, I think.
- [120:11]
A
Also that scene where Willow is trying to make amends with him or whatever, and he's like. He says, I told you what I need, you know? And, you know, the fact that you ignore that makes me feel like you just want to feel better, not that you actually care what I need. And that's actually a line that I have, like.
- [120:29]
B
Yeah.
- [120:30]
A
Literally used in conversation, like, versions of that in conversations to sort of explain to people when they are like, like, not listening to what I need inside of a. A conflict. So. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of conflict, best fight scene.
- [120:45]
B
I have a clip for this one.
- [120:46]
A
Oh, hell, yeah. You should have told me he was alive. You didn't. You have no respect for me or the job I perform.
- [120:56]
B
So I did not go with a physical fight. I went with the most brutal emotional devastation that I. I've ever witnessed.
- [121:04]
A
It's like a knife to my heart.
- [121:07]
B
This is from, of course, episode seven, Revelations, which I thought was just. Just great. If I had picked a physical fight, I would have picked Crock. And I thought that the swapping of his pill water for the holy water was incredible. I'm with Joyce. I was like, also very proud. But yeah. This emotional fight. The Scoobies confronting collectively Buffy about keeping Angel's return from the them. This idea just more broadly in the story for Buffy, for everybody. Divided loyalties. Like how you navigate these conflicting polls on your heart. I love the way that the show, that this episode, that the scene. But the show in general explores that and like acknowledges how fundamental that is to making your way through life. You know. You know, we talked about this earlier, which is. I love the way that everybody's. Everybody is either upset somewhere on the spectrum of like angry upset or concerned. Right. In that sense. Buffy calling out Xander on his jealousy, et cetera. Willow trying to like mediate. And then everybody else leaves. We're already in an intense spot and it's just Giles and Buffy. And he says, be quiet. I won't remind you that the fate of the world often lies with the Slayer. What would be the point? Nor shall I remind you that you've jeopardized the lives of all that you hold dear by harboring a known murderer. But sadly must remind you that angel tortured me for hours for pleasure. And then the part we just heard. You should have told me he was alive. You didn't. You have no respect for me or the job I perform. So like, in theory this is about his role as watcher, but much more so it is about his personal suffering. The torture. But of course also Jenny.
- [122:50]
A
Jenny.
- [122:50]
B
And this idea that like Buffy is so often guided by her hurt. But what about Giles pain? Giles hurt, right. What about everybody else's pain? What about everybody's version of that wound that they kept carry that leads to them doing the things that they do or missing the things that they miss? I thought this was such a beautiful. This felt so important. Like, I don't know, it's the kind of thing where like, you. This is another version of what you're saying earlier, where, like, if Buffy had kept this from everybody and they were like. Makes sense. Like Willow is. Is able to navigate all aspects of this where she's kind of like, I. I understand why you did it. I understand what you need. I will try to be a friend for you. I also think you should be thinking about what this means for everybody else. Right? And that's, I think the most generous response. But I think everybody responds to this with like the fullest version of themselves. The way that all of the characters behavior feels so Right to me. And I love that we got to see it, including Buffy. Like, I just. I love that we got to see this.
- [123:50]
A
Really, really good. That was tough to watch. Yeah. I also picked a verbal argument. Even though in Revelations, Buffy fights Faith for the first time. And it's great, and we'll talk about that more. But, you know, Slayer v Slayer is always very fun, but Buffy and Angel, in amends, as you've already mentioned. Look, I'm weak. I've never been anything else. It's the demon in me that needs killing Buffy. Not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man. But the one that. The line is, am I a thing worth saving? Am I a righteous man? The world wants me gone. And then Buffy's like, but what about me? But am I a thing worth saving? Am I a righteous man? I think is some of the best writing and some of the best acting that David Boreanis has ever done. And isn't it remarkable? Like, remember we were talking about season one, and we're like, hey, this guy's not that great as Angel. And then he just, like. He just really levels up. And, like, Boreanis obviously has had a long career after Buffy on a number of shows, but, like, you know, and obviously has his own show, angel, that, like, he has a lot of great. But, like, amends is, like, the peak David Boreanas for me. And that line, am I a thing we're saving? Am I a righteous man? Is just like any other fights you want to mention.
- [125:05]
B
I have your pick in another. In another category. I. I love that moment. It's so good.
- [125:11]
A
I will say, coming back to Anne, everyone's favorite episode, the. The shot that winds up in the credits of. Of Buffy with the Hammer and the Sickle is like, an incredibly sick fight moment. And then also in everyone's favorite episode, Beauty and the Beast, the idea that you get this, like, mad of, like, universal classic universal monsters. You get Mr. Hyde versus the Wolfman, the Wolfman versus the Slayer, the Slayer versus Mr. Hyde, and Mr. Hyde versus a vampire is, like, a really fun sort of, like, escalation of stuff. When Oz, when he's like, suns down, like, rules change and turns into, you know, the wolf is a great moment.
- [125:47]
B
So fantastic stuff. I do not think. Let me just say this.
- [125:50]
A
Yeah.
- [125:51]
B
I do not think that they should keep Oz in the school library. This is just a note.
- [125:56]
A
Does not seem. And don't let Xander or Faith babysit.
- [125:59]
B
Obviously. Never. And, like, let's do more reinforcing of the Window. Why are we putting him anywhere with the window at all? But, like, it's at the school library.
- [126:08]
A
I really agree.
- [126:09]
B
Crazy.
- [126:10]
A
Well, the good news is that might change. Okay. Horniest Non Band Candy moment. We've already explored Band Candy in depth, so I disqualified it for this category. What do you have here?
- [126:22]
B
I already mentioned that I had this as a clip. We've already talked about it, but let's just listen to it for the sheer pleasure of it. God, I could eat a horse.
- [126:30]
A
Isn't it crazy how slam just always.
- [126:32]
B
Makes you hungry and horny? This is just absolutely incredible. I, I, I do feel compelled to note that also in that episode I, episode three, Faith says of Giles, if I'd have known they came that young and cute, I would have requested a transfer.
- [126:57]
A
Yeah. And everyone's like, I never thought of it that way. And Willow's like, I did basically, like.
- [127:02]
B
I mean, I noticed. Oh, my God. I have some other, some runners up, but hit me with, Hit me with yours. And then we can, we can hit the other contenders.
- [127:09]
A
I think Vampire Xander and Vampire Willow killing Cordelia in the Wish and him, like, grabbing the back of Willow's head so it's like they're making out as they devour her is some pretty spicy content. That's good for all of us here. And all the puppy stuff between Vampire Willow and Angel in the Wish is also scary, but also incredibly horny as well.
- [127:34]
B
Yeah, very much so. Look, I have some notes on how Sander and Willow, Xander and Willow prime are actual. Xander and Willow behave. It's fucked up. They do this. Cordelia and Oz. It's not great. I was, I was pretty riveted by this plot line. I think that the. It's really good. It's really well done. I think it was like, you know, we talked about this a lot in both the season one pod, but certainly the season two pods after. Or like the, you know, ice cream on the nose, et cetera. But just, like, would they hook up when. I don't know. I am always very interested in.
- [128:21]
A
Like.
- [128:22]
B
If there's that one person for you, and you always sort of, like, wondered if they liked you too, and then maybe they realize they do, but it's not the right time. Like, I think a lot of people can relate to that experience. And again, I don't think they behave well. And. But I do think that in Homecoming, in episode five, when they're trying on their homecoming outfits for each other, that's a pretty horny scene and a pretty, like, you almost find Yourself in the position of the characters where you're like, are they going to kiss? And you're like, wait, no, I shouldn't.
- [128:51]
A
Like, yeah, shouldn't want this.
- [128:53]
B
But the, like, you know, the Willow coming out with the two. The first two dresses and there's kind of the cursory, like, Nice.
- [128:58]
A
Yeah.
- [128:58]
B
You know. And then she comes out in the show. Stop. It's like, gorgeous. And she's like looking at him and his tux. And Oz is very lucky. So is Cordelia. Then the dancing and then close. Fluke. It's like, that's a pretty horny scene, for sure.
- [129:14]
A
What I love about Xander and Willow, let me just say quickly, is like, what I love about that is that it was something that I was like when I watched it the first time. Because I love Willow and Willow wanted Xander. I wanted Willow and Xander to be together. Right. But then Oz comes along and Oz is so great. And we love and respect to Cordelia. Cordelia and Xander don't really, like, fit. And that's why sort of things pan out differently for these two couples. But Oz and Willow is so good. And so then when it happens, you're like, oh, I did want this, but not like this, you know, so like, to give you what. To give me what I wanted and for me then to not want it is like, I think, a really interesting delivery of a story.
- [129:51]
B
So, yeah, yeah. For us to feel the same, kind of like we're kind of complicit in it and to feel the same, like, guilt and shame that, you know, the characters, especially Willow, feel Xander being like, can I kiss your earlobe? Just fucking out on campus, like out on Maine. What the fuck is wrong with them?
- [130:09]
A
But.
- [130:12]
B
Well explored for sure. I like, I really thought on the horny front, but also on the smart story structure front. In amends, coming up with a story mechanic that allows angel and Buffy to have sex again. Right? They're sharing a dream and so they get to be intimate with each other again. When obviously everything that happened in season two and it's such a. It's an active discussion point for them throughout the season of, like, what can they have and what can they never have and what do they need and what do they want? And so to put them in a space where the risk has been removed and they can share that level of physicality with each other. Again, pretty horny. And also just, again, really smart.
- [130:55]
A
I do think the will they, won't they of angel and Buffy in the season has done so well. And we'll Talk about it, of course. More in the back half, but I think in Revelations, when the fact that when they finally sort of succumb. Yeah, but we see it from Xander's point of view. Like, we don't see the moment where they finally, like, broke and start making out. We see it because Xander seeing it is, like, really interesting.
- [131:18]
B
Yeah.
- [131:19]
A
Last but not least, I will say in Helpless, I already mentioned this, but Helpless Buffy straddling Angel while panting and saying satisfied is pretty phenomenal.
- [131:28]
B
Really good. Yep.
- [131:29]
A
Best use of Jonathan. The category remains. He's in three episodes in the stretch. Dead Man's Party, Homecoming and the Wish. Eating and Drinking. Memorably in all of these episodes. I'm just gonna say it's hard to pick, honestly. But the absolute diabolical way he eats a cupcake in Homecoming has to be my winner here.
- [131:49]
B
Yeah. And I also liked the Cordelia gave me six bucks. That buys a lot of cupcakes. Like when Puffy's trying to bribe them or in his vote. That was really good. I will go with. In Dead Man's Party, when this horrible fight is unfolding and very, very public.
- [132:05]
A
Public way.
- [132:06]
B
And Buffy asks if anybody else wants to pile on an endurance to poor Jonathan. How about you by the dip? And he's just like, no, thanks. I'm good.
- [132:17]
A
But he's also just kind of, like, smeared a dip. Like, Jonathan does not know how to eat anything, my love. All right. Well, we'll come back to you, Jonathan, in the future. All right. Most 1998 thing. Unless it's from gingerbread or Helpless, in which case, 1999. What do you have here?
- [132:32]
B
I liked in Beauty and the Beast, episode four, when Willow says she couldn't sleep, she says, I've been at Mr. Donut since the TV did that snowy thing. That took me back to being a kid in the 90s. That is just not something that is a part of people's lives anymore.
- [132:50]
A
I will say, with the exception of, like, a memorable Michelle Branch moment in a later season of Buffy Empire Slayer, they don't usually do a lot of, like, needle drops that are, like, very, like, recognizably 90s. Yeah. But the use of. Of both Fastball and Lisa Loeb in Homecoming. Fastball is fire escape by fastball. Incredibly 1998 thing and really, really puts us at a certain time and place. So.
- [133:18]
B
Yeah, I love that. There was also in the school counselor in Platt's office, there's a troll. A very visible troll.
- [133:26]
A
Also, he's smoking inside at a school.
- [133:30]
B
Crazy. Xander just Crushing the sunny D. Oh, yeah. I was like, man, let me tell you something. Still to this day, I see that and I want one.
- [133:39]
A
Always want sunny D. Same same I.
- [133:41]
B
Get when I see a Capri Sun. But then nothing does it quite like seeing a sunny D. I'm like, I just need that.
- [133:46]
A
Those commercials really worked on me, and I didn't have any Sunny D until college. Then I was like, actually, this isn't very good, but it still works on me. I still want to have it. So. All right. Giles's most dad moment.
- [133:59]
B
I mean, how can it not be everything from Helpless?
- [134:03]
A
I've.
- [134:03]
B
You have something else.
- [134:05]
A
And I don't know why I put it here, because probably it belongs in, like, funny moment or whatever, but. Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead. Bloody Americans. Is like, I don't know, very dad to me.
- [134:15]
B
I have that as my funniest moment. But I love. That's a great one. That's so good. His expression. His face is the driving. I always love to see Giles in this car. Great pick. Yeah. I just think everything we've already talked about in Helpless I just fucking love. And when he says to Quentin, I don't give a rat's ass about the Council's orders. There will be no test or Giles. We have no business. And then the way Giles grabs. Grabs his lapels like Shakespeare's, like, this is not business, dad.
- [134:46]
A
On that note, Giles's most daddy moment, as we've mentioned, I've been a little alarmed to how often it's violence, but I'm gonna give it to physically intimidating Snyder and Dead Man's Party, of course. Of course. That's my answer.
- [134:59]
B
I believe I can make life very difficult for you, professionally speaking. When he grabs him by the collar, says, would you like me to convince you that so I'm like, yes, please. I need a private moment. This is like. This is.
- [135:11]
A
Wow.
- [135:13]
B
Oh, my God. Yeah, that's a great one. In that same episode in Dead Man's Party, I also think it's very Daddy when he kicks Dead man off the. Also, he spends a lot of time on Hoods of Cars in these episodes. He's like, rolling around, kicking. That's a great one.
- [135:25]
A
The alt.
- [135:26]
B
Giles and the wish. The sweater that he's wearing. We'll talk. We'll keep sweater trackers going to be part of our discussion moving forward. I like in Amends when he's cooking when angel comes over. And then I just thought it was really fucking hot when he showed up. When he'd rounded the bend with the crossbow. Sorry. I did.
- [135:46]
A
All right. I think we have the same answer for When Willow Cries, we cry. Do you want to take us through it?
- [135:52]
B
This is Dead Man's Party. This is the moment we talked about earlier, when Willow finds Buffy packing again. Right? Buffy is just returning, turned. And it's not.
- [136:02]
A
And this is.
- [136:03]
B
I. You know, I said earlier that this episode isn't one of my favorites, but, like, I think this was brilliant, the way that this episode examined, like, life moved on without Buffy. And that doesn't mean that people didn't miss her, but it does mean that when she's like, can we hang out tonight? Like, people have plans, you know? And, like, she's in this really interesting place where, like, everybody's a little bit mad at her and a little bit hurt, but also very relieved and glad that you. She's back. And she's, like, navigating her version of that dissonance as well. And when Willow finds her and is like, you're leaving again?
- [136:38]
A
What?
- [136:38]
B
Just stopped by for your limp brush and now you're ready to go? I was like, yeah. Like, stand on your business, Willow. Like, yeah.
- [136:48]
A
Willow and Joyce. I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [136:50]
B
Like, I think that Xander went over bored in the way that he was talking to Buffy, unsurprisingly, as per usual. Xander let her finish. I was like, I don't love this, but I thought. I was glad that Willow and Joyce both, like, stood up for the fact that they love Buffy. They're happy she's back, but, like, feeling like the relationships that they have with her could just be, like, at any minute, dropped and abandoned because of just what Buffy needs. It's like, well, what about what I need? Or what about how this makes me feel? Was, like, important. It was an important thing to hold Buffy to account for. And the passage we already. Or the exchange we already talked about. Like, this isn't easy, Buffy. I know you're going through stuff, but so am I. And Buffy says, I know you're worried about me, but. And Will's like, no.
- [137:33]
A
No.
- [137:34]
B
I mean, yes, but, like, no, I don't just mean that. I mean, my life. I'm having all sorts of. I'm dating. I'm having serious dating with a werewolf, and I'm studying witchcraft and killing vampires, and I didn't have anyone to talk to about all this scary lifestyle stuff. Like, we talk a lot and we think a lot about what's it like to be the friend of the Slayer. Right? But what's it like to count the Slayer as your friend is just as interesting.
- [137:59]
A
Yeah. And I think also, like, as, as. So as the circle expands of who knows that Buffy is a slayer, right? Like, Cordelia knows. Oz knows now Joyce knows. You know, like, blah, blah. And then we also have this classic sort of superhero friend group thing of, like, who's becoming special. Oz is a werewolf. Willow's a witch. Yeah. You know, Xander. Still Xander. Xander's the Zeppo. Which we'll talk about. You know what I mean? But it's just sort of like this is a classic. Like, you see it on the Flash or you see it, you know, like, various things where it's just sort of like everyone becomes a superhero at the end of the day. But, like, Willow's exploration of her. Of her witchcraft this season, I think is, like, really well done. We'll talk about that more. Best guest star. Sorry, I can only be myself. I'm giving it to James Marsters as Spike. That's eligible.
- [138:44]
B
If he's eligible. There's no other pick.
- [138:46]
A
Okay. Yes, that's, that's what I'm picking.
- [138:48]
B
Okay, easy.
- [138:48]
A
Okay.
- [138:49]
B
I mean, he was amazing. I wasn't sure if he got. Did I bring up my own rules?
- [138:52]
A
Sorry if I brought my own rules. That's okay.
- [138:54]
B
But we fucking make the rules. Here we go. This is what. Here's what you should do right now. You should just pretend like you're driving a car. I did it my way. Drive off.
- [139:07]
A
The Sunnydale sign will never be safe again. All right. Best high school is hell metaphor. This is trickier this season because, like, there are so much more overt versions of this in seasons one and two. I'm giving it to pta, Gone Wild and Gingerbread. That's what I. That's not new.
- [139:26]
B
Yeah.
- [139:27]
A
Moo.
- [139:27]
B
Yeah. Moo.
- [139:30]
A
Moo.
- [139:31]
B
Yeah.
- [139:32]
A
This is.
- [139:32]
B
I thought that was. I like that episode, too. I thought that was the fairy tale part of it. But also this aspect of, like, the potential dark manifestation of this, like, parental communal mass hysteria. Hysteria and child. Yeah, exactly.
- [139:47]
A
That.
- [139:48]
B
I, I, I think I'll toss out as, as nominees as well. In the Wish, when Cordelia comes back, she's gone through this not only emotional trauma, but this physical trauma, you know, the. Speared by. Yeah, yeah. And, like, comes back and John Lee is like, if anyone saw me hanging out with Xander Harris's cast off, you know, and Harmony's like, Jonathan Prank, you know, that was all. It was all so high school. So kids being bullies, kids being mean, but the fact that it leads Cordelia immediately to this, like, supernatural circumstance of wishing Buffy out of their existence. Pinpointing Buffy's arrival as the moment where this all went wrong for Cordelia, I thought was another good example of it. Obviously, everything in Band Candy fits, but we've talked about that. You know so much already. Homecoming, you know, a school dance leading to, like, Slayer Fest. At the whiteboard. In Buffy's whiteboard, two of Cordelia's weaknesses, like cons weakness. Xander and Brie. All right.
- [140:55]
A
Cringiest low budget moment.
- [140:57]
B
This was so easy for me this time.
- [140:59]
A
Okay, what do you have?
- [141:01]
B
I love band candy, I think.
- [141:03]
A
Yeah. The snake thing at the end of Band Candy.
- [141:04]
B
Dude, this was nuts. Lurconis emerging as this, like, almost looks like Maiden Mike. With respect, everyone's sure worked really hard. Like Microsoft paint. Like early era cgi. Just like it made me. We've, you know, lovingly, like, made fun of some of the early puppets and stuff. But it made me really miss, like.
- [141:25]
A
Yeah, you miss the puppets. A pup. Yeah.
- [141:27]
B
We've said it before. We'll say it again. I missed the puppets. Puppets.
- [141:31]
A
Always on my mind.
- [141:32]
B
Yeah.
- [141:32]
A
I'm going to also add Pete's transformation in Beauty and the Beast.
- [141:35]
B
Yep.
- [141:36]
A
Yeah. And then the kids morphing into the giant demon and gingerbread. To which Cordelia says, okay, I think I like the two little ones more than the one big one.
- [141:49]
B
Oh, my God. All right.
- [141:50]
A
The most important category. The most. Okay, Joanna. I get it. Spike moment. I have a clip, I bet.
- [141:57]
B
No, this is different. Our love was eternal.
- [142:00]
A
Literally.
- [142:03]
B
You got any of those little marshmallows? That was so good. I loved that.
- [142:11]
A
Spike and Joyce are very important to me on the burgeoning, you know. Know, Spike and Joyce relationship. We got some bonding in season two. And here we are over hot chocolate. Chaos demon. All drool and antlers. Chaos demon. Sadness for Spike.
- [142:26]
B
What do you have here? Second chaos demon tale of that episode. It was great. I love. I mean, boy, this is a rich text. I was thrilled. Thrilled for Spike to be back after kidnapping Willow and knocking out Xander. He's talking about Drusilla. It's like, what happened? She doesn't even care enough to cut off my head or send me on fire. And then in that same scene, this one killed me. I gave her everything. Beautiful jewels, beautiful dresses with beautiful girls. But nothing made her happy. That was so good. I had the marshmallow thing. And then in that same. When angel shows up and Spike is behind, Joy's, like, miming biting her neck.
- [143:13]
A
That's an iconic Buffy gif is pretending to Unbelievable.
- [143:19]
B
When. When he's reminiscing. Is there like ingredient shopping? And he's like, I used to bring her rats with the morning paper and. But my pick, my winner would have been the what you had already.
- [143:29]
A
The.
- [143:29]
B
The you're not friends. You'll never be friends.
- [143:30]
A
I mean, that wasn't brains Children.
- [143:32]
B
Oh, God. That was really great.
- [143:35]
A
Spike on self immolation wash Angels. Brutus Eye Bit to Hell moment.
- [143:42]
B
Oh, boy. Some good contenders in Amends. I think that angel going to Giles to ask for help and saying I should be in a demon dimension suffering an eternity of torture and Giles saying, I don't feel particularly inclined to argue with. That was really, really good. I also loved I don't Need Strength, I just need the Sunrise as a pick for this. My God. That was great.
- [144:10]
A
Very good Amends. You'll forever be famous. In Lovers Walk, angel is spot spotted reading a book by the fire. It is Nausea by John Paul Sarge. And I think reading Sarge by the Fire, incredible is a top tier brooding moment for Guy Angel. That's my pick.
- [144:30]
B
Perfect pick. Perfect pick.
- [144:33]
A
Funniest moment.
- [144:35]
B
I have a clip for this. It was just too much to deal with. It was like nothing made sense anymore. The things that I thought I understood were gone. Just felt so alone.
- [144:51]
A
Is that the math or the verbal? That was my pick. That was my pick, too.
- [144:57]
B
Absolute all timer.
- [144:59]
A
Yeah.
- [145:00]
B
That's the end of band. Mostly.
- [145:01]
A
Mostly the math. She says. Mostly the math. Mostly the math. Really, really good.
- [145:06]
B
That absolutely killed me. I was laughing so hard. I. I am having a hard time accepting that we find out in Lovers Walk that Buffy had a 1430 on her SATs. Buffy's very smart, but Buffy does not test well or do very well in school. That's canon. So this was.
- [145:27]
A
Well. And then Joyce is like, you can go anyway. We'll talk.
- [145:30]
B
Go anywhere.
- [145:30]
A
Let's talk about. Let's talk about Buffy in college next time. Yeah. Lot to say.
- [145:35]
B
Another really funny one. We already. I said I had the. The Americans moment as a candidate here, but I liked actually in Gingerbread on the. The two into one when Buffy snaps her steak that she's being burned at. Like, did I get it?
- [145:54]
A
Did I get it? Did I get it? Also on my list. Did I get it is so good.
- [145:58]
B
That was amazing.
- [146:01]
A
Cordelia and Buffy at the end of Homecoming, walking out of the crowning ceremony, refusing to learn any kind of lesson from. From this moment. Cordelia's death fake out in Lovers Walk when You, like, cut to the graveyard and it's just like, so Cordelia's gonna be okay.
- [146:21]
B
That was really good.
- [146:23]
A
And then last but not least, the bad keeps coming back and getting stronger. Like that kid in the story, the boy that stuck his finger in the duck. Dyke. It's another word for a dam. Oh. Okay. That story makes a lot more sense now.
- [146:37]
B
14:30 on our SATs.
- [146:42]
A
All right. Last, not least, emotional moment. I have a clip. Play it.
- [146:50]
B
What about you, Xander? What's up with you?
- [146:51]
A
Oh, you know.
- [146:52]
B
Same old, same old, hard way. Okay, I lied a little bit. Well, that's good, isn't it? New is good. Oh, absolutely. Except for the obvious.
- [147:00]
A
Not good.
- [147:03]
B
Yeah.
- [147:05]
A
If you're only listening to this podcast and not watching it, what that is. You hear Xander and Buffy talking in the background, but it's Giles in the kitchen in Dead Man's Party in a silent moment of thank God, Buffy is back. He's. He just takes a beat, and he just, like, has his moment of relief and smiling to himself. He's been flying all over the world trying to find her, and she shows up. But he. He gives her a very, like, calm welcome home. But then he, like, has this moment in the kitchen of just.
- [147:30]
B
Oh, what a great pick.
- [147:31]
A
Relief. So that's my pick. I love. I have. I have one more. What's. What's your. What's your. This is.
- [147:38]
B
This is where I have the. The Buffy angel on the hillside waiting for sunrise moment from. From amends and Maya thing. We're saving my righteous man. The world wants to be gone. What a about me. I love you so much. And I tried to make you go away. I killed you. And it didn't help. And I hate it. I hate it so hard that you can hurt me so much. I know everything that you did because you did it to me. I wish that I wished you dead. I don't. I can't. I thought the righteous man line was amazing. What about me? Caught. Right to my heart, I thought, I know everything that you did because you did it to me was, like, a good way to capture an important idea. Yeah, that was very moving scene. And then, of course, everything from. From Helpless that we've already talked about was just, like, devastating.
- [148:23]
A
I know this is gonna sound very lightweight compared to everything we just talked about, but this gets me every time in Lovers Walk when Cordelia has fallen down and she's got rebar sticking out of her torso, and then she, like, whispers, I fell. It, like, devastates me. And the idea of Cordelia getting hurt by something ordinary like rebar, rather than something extraordinary or supernatural again is like an idea that will return to. But I just like that vision of her, you know, like what Cordelia does. She sort of reverts back to type in a way that is not like my favorite. Sometimes in season three, it feels like she backslides on the character development front. But, like that moment of just like, she's grieving, you know, and Xander's, like, desperately upset, you know, but like, I fell and it just like has all these meanings and, you know, I fell in love with you and you betrayed me. It's just like, cordelia, you're a wonderful character and I'm so glad you did. It really is.
- [149:24]
B
It really shredded me when she turns at the hospital, like, her face is away at first. And we see the devastation and the despair before Xander does. It was. Oh, yeah, that was all really, really, really good, man. Great season.
- [149:37]
A
Guess what season that's the first half of Buffy Vampires Season three.
- [149:42]
B
Can't wait to talk about the second.
- [149:43]
A
Season three. Yeah, we're talking about the second, which has just some incredible, incredible stuff in it. The mayor, my fave. We're going to get into you. Thank you so much to Mallory Rubin for watching both in Vampire Slayer with me. You're the best.
- [149:58]
B
Happy New Year, pal.
- [150:01]
A
Thank you so much to Arjuna Ram Powell for all of his work organizing herding cats. As always, thank you to Carl Siriboga, who loves Buffy Vampire Slayer season three, loves Vampire Willow. We'll talk about the that more in Part two. And thank you to Jomi at Dinneron for his work on the Social. And we will see you for the second half of our Buffy Vampire Slayer Season three. Watch next week. Bye.