‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 3 Rewatch (Part 2)

Summary

‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 3 Rewatch (Part 2): House of R Deep Dive
February 20, 2026 | Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Mallory Rubin

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Overview

In this much-anticipated episode, Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin return for the second part of their deep dive into Buffy the Vampire Slayer’s pivotal third season, covering episodes 13 (“The Zeppo”) through 22 (“Graduation Day, Part 2”). With characteristic enthusiasm and incisive analysis, they unpack the season’s major arcs—including Buffy’s journey to graduation, Faith’s dark descent, the rise of the Mayor, and the emotional goodbyes as the show prepares for its post-high school era. Packed with heartfelt reflection, favorite lines, insightful superlatives, and bursts of laughter, the discussion showcases why Buffy Season 3 is regarded as one of TV’s finest.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Impact of Real World Events: Context of Season 3’s Airing

• [07:25]: Mallory and Joanna open by recalling how the Columbine shooting led to the postponement of two key episodes: “Earshot” and “Graduation Day, Part 2.”
  • “Whenever I think about Buffy Season 3, 1999, I always think of this … collision of storytelling and the world.” — Joanna [07:25]
• [08:25]: Mallory admits the delay wasn’t something she remembered as a kid, highlighting how media and context have shifted over time.

Coming of Age: High School, Identity, and Graduation

• Buffy’s SATs & College Admissions

  • [10:07]: Hilarity around Buffy’s miraculous SATs and college acceptance.
    • “1430 to Northwestern. Absolutely not! Everything else thematically, just gorgeous.” — Mallory [13:24]
  • The hosts agree that while the college subplot stretches believability, thematically it beautifully mirrors Buffy’s struggle between destiny and agency.

• Identity & Duality

  • [13:39]: The question "Who are you?" echoes across the season, explored through doppelgängers and doubles—Willow & Vampire Willow, Giles & Wesley.
  • “I'm still working on it. I'm 39.” — Mallory [14:16] (on coming of age)

New and Evolving Characters

• The Introduction of Wesley Wyndam-Pryce
  • [15:08]: Mallory delights in how quickly Giles’ “Next Generation” is undermined.—“He just is such a clown … real amateur hour.” [17:06]
• Cordelia’s Arc and the Setup for Angel
  • Cordelia’s regression to mean-girl archetype is discussed as part of setting up for the ‘Angel’ spinoff.
  • “This is also the end of Cordelia’s story (on Buffy).” — Joanna [21:46]

Standout Episodes & Character Spotlights

• “The Zeppo” (Xander-centric episode)

  • [24:06]: Joanna and Mallory praise its structure for showing world-saving events from Xander’s sidelined perspective and highlight Xander’s existential journey.
    • “I just loved… the most intense thing is happening … and we’re like, let’s go get ingredients to bake a cake.” — Mallory [25:51]

• “Doppelgangland” (Willow/Vampire Willow)

  • [29:06]: Lauded as one of Whedon’s Top 5. The duality and self-reflection in Willow’s encounter with her evil counterpart enrich the show’s themes.
    • “It’s not what don’t I like about what I see, it’s what do I kind of envy...” — Mallory [31:20]

• The Prom (“Class Protector” Moment)

  • [32:16 & 34:35]: The “Buffy the Class Protector” scene is unanimously chosen as the most emotional moment.
    • “Buffy has been routinely mocked, dismissed, feared… But season 3 finally allows her class to see her clearly: a protector.” — Joanna, quoting listener Clifton [35:01]
    • “I loved this one and I thought that this moment was beautiful. … It’s like, does somebody see you clearly?” — Mallory [36:19]

Themes: Power, Responsibility, and Darkness

• Buffy vs. Faith (Nature/Nurture, Power, Choice)

  • [43:16]: Deep discussion about Faith’s arc, her dark choices, and Buffy’s flirtation with crossing her own moral lines.
    • “This is just… the good shit right here.” — Mallory [43:16]
    • “There’s more than one form that disappointment can take in your life. So I like reinforcing that.” — Mallory [48:25]

• Patriarchy, the Watchers Council, and The Mayor

  • [55:21]: The Mayor as the “bizarro Giles,” both a father figure and patriarchal threat, preying on Faith’s vulnerability.
    • “He’s quite literally patronizing…” — Joanna [55:20]
    • “It is something that Faith doesn’t have and misses… That is a wound for her.” — Mallory [58:01]

Farewell to Characters & High School Era

• Angel’s Departure
  • [65:31]: Joanna and Mallory discuss how the show “earns” Angel’s spin-off, making his exit emotionally truthful.
    • “It heightens the sacrifice and the tragedy…” — Mallory [66:09]
    • “Are you still my girl? —Always.” — Angel & Buffy, [109:16]
• High School’s Hell Metaphor & Graduation Day
  • [105:11]: Recognition that the season 3 finale marks the true end of ‘Buffy the High School Show.’
    • “Graduation Day is the best high school as hell metaphor. … It’s a high school show, and it won’t be that.” — Joanna [105:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Buffy’s Independence:

  • “You can’t turn your back on the Council. They’re in England. I don’t think they can tell which way my back is facing.” — Buffy [74:34]

• On Class Protector:

  • “We’re proud to say that the class of ‘99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history. And we know at least part of that is because of you... Buffy Summers, Class Protector.” — Jonathan [34:35]
  • “I never knew children en masse could be so gracious.” — Giles [35:01]
  • “Every now and then, people can surprise you.” — Buffy [116:23]

• Buffy & Faith Tension:

  • “Everyone always asks, why can’t you be more like Buffy? But did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me?” — Faith [41:44]
  • “You need me to toe the line because you’re afraid you’ll go over it. You know, because it tempts you. You know it could be you.” — Faith [86:20]

• Mayor’s Dark Humor:

  • “What’s the fun in becoming an immortal demon if you’re not regular?” — Mayor Wilkins [82:26]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [07:25] — Columbine’s impact on Buffy’s scheduling
• [10:07] — College admissions plot hilarity; coming of age arc
• [13:39] — Identity, doubles, and the “Who are you?” motif
• [15:08] — Wesley Wyndam-Pryce’s introduction and 90s teacher/student crush tropes
• [21:46] — Cordelia’s and Angel’s departure
• [24:06] — “The Zeppo,” Rosencrantz & Guildenstern structure
• [29:06] — “Doppelgangland” and Willow’s self-insight
• [32:16, 34:35, 36:19] — The Prom “Class Protector” scene and its emotional resonance
• [43:16, 48:25] — Faith as tragic foil and nature vs. nurture themes
• [55:21, 58:01] — The Mayor as patriarchal shadow; Faith’s vulnerability
• [65:31, 66:09, 109:16] — Angel’s bittersweet goodbye
• [105:11] — Graduation as the end of Buffy’s high school era

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Superlatives & Fun Categories

• Favorite Line:
  • Buffy quitting the Council: “They’re in England. I don’t think they can tell which way my back is facing.” [74:34]
  • “Sure, we can work out after school. You know, if you’re not too busy having sex with my mother.” — Buffy to Giles [75:05]
• Villain of the Week:
  • Mallory: “The Homie Balthazar” [77:07]
  • Joanna: “Vampire Willow” [78:30]
• Best Fit:
  • Buffy’s iconic red leather pants and black tank in the finale [79:28]
  • Vampire Willow’s leather look [78:53]
• Best Guest Star:
  • Anya (Emma Caulfield) [101:48]
  • Michael Cudlitz as Uncle Mike, the zombie in “The Zeppo” [103:30]
• Class Protector/Most Emotional Moment: [32:16, 34:35, 116:43]
  • Unanimous pick; both hosts tear up recounting it.
• Horniest Moment:
  • Vampire Willow licking Willow’s neck [88:07]
  • Joyce & Giles’ Band Candy revelation: “We were teenagers on the hood of a police car. … Twice.” [89:00]
• Cringiest Low Budget Moment:
  • Mayor’s snake transformation CGI [108:15]
  • Lunch lady fight in “Earshot” [108:35]

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Segments and Theories

• Riddles in the Dark: Faith’s Dream, “Little Miss Muffet counting down from seven three zero”
  • Mallory admits, “No idea. Excited? No idea. We’re just gonna mark it and come back to it.” [69:59]
• What’s Next?
  • Next up: Buffy goes to college, Anya rises, new characters (including Spike!) return [117:44]

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Fan Mail Highlights

• The hosts discuss mail about Giles’ Nescafe commercials, Faith’s “peekaboob” shirt, the JD Salinger-esque Xander, and the power of collective fan memory.

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Final Thoughts

• This episode is a joyous celebration of everything that made Season 3 truly special: the strong coming-of-age themes, the rich character work, poignant emotional payoffs, and the series’ legacy as more than just a “monster of the week” show.
• “What an incredible season of television.” — Joanna [116:43]
• “I’m excited for season four, college years.” — Mallory [116:48]

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For newcomers and longtime fans alike, Mallory and Joanna’s thoughtful, affectionate, and often hilarious breakdown is an homage to what made Buffy such an enduring pop culture force.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello. Welcome back to a much anticipated House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That is Mallory Rubin. And even though the skies have opened up today and it is flooding in Los Angeles, and even though HBO dropped a House of the Dragon trailer on us on our heads this week, we are staying firm to our commitment to deliver to you. Buffy Season 3 Part 2 of Long Awaited right after this.

[C]

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi fi, phone, TV, mobile services plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Receive restrictions apply Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs. Who just dropped a game changing sandwich? The French dip. Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au Juliet. I've been eating these forever since I was living on the east coast in la. I think to me, this versus the cheesesteak, the French dip, no contest. Way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order, by the way, if you want it delivered. Because they usually put the au jus in the special little container you can pour it on, knock yourself out. The French dip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at Firehouse Subs. Limited time at participating Firehouse Subs restaurants while supplies last.

[B]

All right. Molly Ruben.

[A]

Yes. Reliable dog geyser person. Reliable dog geyser person. Just like Willow.

[B]

Do you want to show for the. For the folks who are watching this podcast?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you want to show them your shirt? Oh, yeah.

[A]

Let's see. Got my water in the way here.

[B]

I've got my.

[A]

My Sunnydale shirt. Hanukkah present from my husband. Wonderful stuff. I had the Giles shirt last go around. So my Buffy wardrobe is growing. Considered doing an entire pod with a Jansport backpack on my back, but it doesn't seem comfortable. But we do have them here with us today.

[B]

We all have Jansports here today because you. You brought us gifts. Jansport gifts. As we say goodbye to high schools. As we say goodbye to Sunnydale high in the 90s. I'm glad you're representing the Razorbacks. You've got the canonical Sunnydale High red. I have a deeply non canonical red on. But we're still honoring the spirit of Buffy and her most iconic look ever happens in the finale of this season when we get the red leather pants and the black tank top. That is like the Buffy look. We're talking about all of that. But first, before we get into all of the Buffy goodness that is waiting for us. Yes, Mallory, what else is going on in the feed right now? Just a few things.

[A]

Oh, boy. Well, we are nearing the end of the wonderful season of television of the Night of the Seven Kingdoms. So we will be with CR With Chris Ryan for the season finale of Talk to Thrones on Sunday night right after episode six of the Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We're going to be back for Talk of Thrones in mere months because Hot D is coming in June. June. And then after Talk the Thrones on Sunday night, we will be back for our season finale deep dive on Tuesday evening as usual. And then we will be going through the House of the Dragon trailer next Wednesday. We'll probably hit it for a minute on Talk of Thrones. Just maybe like a favorite glitzer Takeru us. But the.

[B]

If you're like TikTok, where is the House of the Dragon trailer? Deepwater.

[A]

We've got a finale to cover.

[B]

It's coming next week. Yeah. And we will do it.

[A]

Turn the page. And we'll look ahead to season three.

[B]

We have pushed some plans off just so that we can cover the Hot D trailer which are happening. We are wrapping up the Buffy rewatch of season three. Yes. Season four. Question mark. Who's to say It'll come when it comes.

[A]

I'm excited that I get to start watching season four soon.

[B]

We're going to go to college. It's going to be very exciting. But today we are covering season three, episode 13, the Zeppo, through episode 22, graduation day part two. So if you're like, what about the rest of season three? We already did it. You can find it in the feed. So that exists. All right. So can I hit you with some mailbag stuff really quickly before we get into it all?

[A]

That'd be great. Please.

[B]

Several people, several of the Bhad Bhabies are very urgently want you to know that Anthony Stewart, who plays Giles, have you heard of him? Was in a series of Nescafe Gold blend commercials. Will you tell the Bhad Bhabies that I'm a good friend and I made sure that you saw these early days

[A]

when the lust, love and longing for Giles was in Full bloom. You brought this to my attention. And this is definitely one of those things where like it seemed familiar. I had clearly seen these on TV when I was younger. But it was a whole new journey of discovery now that Giles is such a formative love in my life. And part of what was really fun was you sent us on our group chat with Mahoney and we all got seen them somehow.

[B]

Rob Buffy fan that he yeah. Got to experience it. And it's a whole. If you've never seen the Nescafe Gold blend commercials. It's like a whole soap opera.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That unfolds unfolded over years. Many hairstyles of these Nescafe commercials where these neighbors basically have a meet cute and fall and like go through the ups and downs of a relationship over coffee.

[A]

You know, given Giles canonical opinion on coffee reinforced in these episodes. It's an interesting. It's an interesting twist.

[B]

But sometimes you don't want to be soothed. Sometimes you want to be high strung.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You got to have some coffee.

[A]

How will you ever thank me? I think is something just one of the great moments in commercial history so very powerful. I'd recommend them to anybody who's not seen them. You know, if you don't have a friend like Joanna who brings them to your attention, then you have a podcast with Joanna to bring them to your

[B]

But I'm so glad that the Bhad Bhabies really wanted to make sure but please give me some credit. I of course showed Mallory the commercials and it's a quick mailbag because we have a lot to get to. Jay wrote in to say for the sake of brevity and not going off on tangents, I'll say that while Jo and her friends term a boob window this is for Faith's very iconic shirt that she first appears in. Term a boob window does the trick. I've always loved that my wife and her friends describe their Faith Esquire as shirts from university as the early aughts as a peekaboob.

[A]

No notes.

[B]

Peekaboob. Pretty good.

[A]

Excellent.

[B]

Carlos liked it.

[A]

So you know Carlos once again sitting three and a half feet away from us.

[B]

Far more comfortable territory. We should hope though you will be talking about Giles at length. I Carlos also is a huge fan of of this back like he loves this season. I think he loves the back half more than anything. So I think this is like Carlos, is that right that this is like the best that Buffy gets as far as you're concerned? Maybe season five. All right. That's right. That's right. Okay.

[A]

He's a pro. Always knows how to spin forward, tease

[B]

it forward, keep it on going. All right, should we go now to our snapshot?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

So, Buffy Season 3, September 1998 to July 1999, with an asterisk, right? Because two episodes that crop up at the end of the season, Earshot and Graduation Part, Graduation Day, Part two, were both postponed because right around this time was when the Columbine High School shooting happened. For Earshot, it was like the very same week, and we lived in a different time where this felt like a rare and shocking occurrence in our nation. Dare I say a better, more innocent time, when we would take a pause for weeks at a time and consider what media we're consuming in proximity to this. But whenever I think About Buffy Season 3, 1999, I always think of this as just like. And really, I don't know, impactful moment and collision of storytelling and the world. Where were you in 98 into 99?

[A]

Middle school.

[B]

Middle school, yeah.

[A]

I was 12, I guess. Born in 86. So if that math checks out, I

[B]

was in eighth grade. You're not a mathematician?

[A]

Not a mathematician. Add it to the list. But, yeah. So this was a surprise to me, to learn this and to learn about the shifting of the episodes and to see where they fell in time. That's not something that I have any memory of being aware of in real time. But then to know it and then watch the episode for the first time. Harrowing, obviously, given just the plot lines and aspects of the episodes that hinge around those events. But even the fact that it's incorporated into the dialogue, like, oh, this is borderline trendy at this point. And then you think of the fact that that episode had to be delayed and pulled, It's. Yeah, I had no idea. None.

[B]

Earshot was delayed all the way until the Fall Graduation Day, Part two. So Part two of the season finale was pushed into July, but it premiered elsewhere in the world, so it existed. And torrents weren't very much a thing at the time, but they weren't. Not so. I was a babe in the woods and did not understand that that was available. Impossible. But certainly some people found pirated versions of the Buffy finale before it finally aired in the U.S. but that's just like an. An interesting fact. You were 12 at the time. Around 12 at the time. If your math is correct, that means you were far away from your transition from high school into college. That's right. But having gone through that process, Mallory, do you have any notes or questions or comments or concerns for the way that our pals at Sunnydale High deal with the SATs, college graduation, admissions, et cetera, et cetera?

[A]

I thought you were gonna ask, where was I in terms of my exposure to message boards? And how would I have found out that the most important hookup in the history of television, Giles and Joyce, was in fact confirmed in earshot and presumably discussed on some corner of the Internet? I like Carlos. Love this stretch. Season 3 is my favorite season so far. I think what I said last pot in our first part of season three still holds. I think, you know, the highest high highs of a couple of the episodes in season two, innocence, passion, et cetera, stand out on equal footing, but just start to finish. Overall, I think this season is extraordinary. And this back half was my favorite part as well. Even though the front half of season three includes, I think, my favorite episodes of season three, this is a rare blight on an otherwise wonderful and historic text. We talked last pod in the season three Part one discussion about the astonishing reveal that Buffy character I love and admire had gotten a 1430 on her SATs. A thing that, frankly, does not seem possible. But let me tell you what's even less credible than that. Buffy Summers, who had to beg her way back into high school and then

[B]

couldn't get a teacher recommendation, knew her

[A]

well, like, even knew her. And, like, could say for sure you were in my class.

[B]

Has, as far as I can tell, no extracurriculars. I mean, she's busy, we understand, but

[A]

climbs out of windows in the middle of class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Got into Northwestern, one of the best schools in the country. I was in tears from laughing so hard. I didn't think I would be able to, like, recover my focus. Just incredible stuff. The plot, the plot mechanics in general to get everybody toward a UC Sunnydale outcome I respect and admire. Oh, yeah, you admire the Hustle. That's great work. That's just great work.

[B]

Classic Beverly Hills, 9210.

[A]

Cordelia's dad has wound up embroiled in a tax scandal, so she can't afford to go to other schools. She's like, guess could end up there, right? Xander thought he was going to get his rejection letter in crayon. Oz is like, guess what? They're typing them now. Everybody's got something new they've learned. Willow has her big epiphany that she wants to help the world and do it right here. Joyce having her moment of I gotta call up your aunt who lives in Chicago to tell her you Might be heading to Northwestern is like, I just can't believe that was a real thing that happened. I do like the other Buffy, though, what it leads to, just the whole college admissions plot, which is like on the heels of something that I loved in the first half of season three, was the I can't be just a person. I can't be helpless. Like that aspect of helpless. And the other side of this, like, I can't just be a slayer. I have to go be a person. I have to go to college. I might want to leave this town. I want to. I might want to get off the Hellmouth. Wonderful. And in general, the path toward graduation of a different sort. Rejecting the Council, forging her own path, I just thought was, like, incredibly rewarding to watch as a coming of age story. So 1430 to Northwestern. Absolutely not. Everything else in a larger sense, thematically, just gorgeous. Great.

[B]

This is wonderful.

[A]

I did get a kick, as I mentioned already, out of the Xander Oxford, Oxnard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After Shawn.

[B]

After Shawn made that same real life

[A]

moment with Shawn on the Hypedraft. That was very, very satisfying

[B]

on the. On the sort of, like, theme of identity, which we hit a lot in part one, because if we. If we can stretch our minds back far enough to the season three premiere. There's the key moment in the season three premiere where an antagonist asks Buffy, like, who are you? And she says, for the first time, I'm Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Right. But this question of who are you? Echoes throughout the whole season. Very key as a coming of age as, you know, 18 year olds on the cusp of a kind of adulthood. I would argue we still have more road to take before we become full blown adults. But, you know, this is a key.

[A]

I'm still working on it. I'm 39.

[B]

The road goes ever on. You know what I mean?

[A]

But your hair looks so good today. I'm sorry, it's just like.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Stunning. Stunning.

[B]

Ooh, stunning. It's pouring rain outside. So, like, we had to, like, go straight today.

[A]

Oh, it looks beautiful. Carry on. I had to get that on the record. Thank you.

[B]

But this. So this question of identity and these doubles, these doppelgangers, doppelgang land, of course, we will talk about in this stretch, et cetera. But these dual parents might need to

[A]

give Carlos a mic for that one.

[B]

Oh, yeah. He loves Vampire Willow.

[A]

He sure does.

[B]

It's true. But we need to talk about Wesley. Wesley Wyndham Price. Thinking of some things that have not aged particularly well.

[A]

Maybe out of this.

[B]

But the introduction of Wesley, the first Evil Faith, Anya expansion of Jonathan have seismic repercussions for the rest of Buffy's stories. No other season, I would argue, is as impactful as season three of Buffy Vampire Slayer in terms of, like, the things it sets up to come. But Wesley. Wyndham Price, what is your first impression? Here comes Alexis Denisov. Like to join the ranks. Were you familiar with him at all? He's a real. He's a real Whedon guy. He married Alice and Hannigan out of this and they've got an adorable family. So, like, delightful. He's around the Whedonverse for a while. But this is like kind of your introduction to him.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. Got a kick out, of course, the Giles the Next Generation framing. Very amusing. And then I really appreciated and enjoyed how quickly that is undermined as a framing. Right. Giles the Next Generation, frankly, how dare you? Right? He might have the acc. He might have the Council association, the glasses, the suit, but the fact that he is coming in on the heels of Giles ousting from the Council and the way that he tries so immediately to insert himself and to assert his authority and his control, I got, like, a real kick out of the. Well, you know, like, let me take you through all of the field experience that I have. Okay, we're done. You know, like, he hasn't been in it, and. And yet he is emboldened to think that he's in charge. So just right away, the instant dislike that I felt for him because he has. Like, even though Giles made a deliberate choice at the midpoint to stand up to the Council and choose Buffy over the Council, it's still, like, you are here at the expense of this person and this thing and you are interfering with our family, with our Scooby. So right away you're on edge.

[B]

Then.

[A]

He's just such a clown, right? Like, he just is such a clown and has no idea what he's doing in his real amateur hour. One of my favorite television episode titles of all time, Shitshow at the Fuck Factory. Early succession stuff. That's really Wesley's vibe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you bring in the Cordelia element right away, which I'll spoil that. My pick for most 99 thing is the entire Cordelia Wesley plot, which, like, Van and Bill and I just talked about this on the Rewatchables episode for Wild Things, which is same exact period of time, right? That's 98. This is 99. Dawson's Creek. 99. It's like, with Pacey.

[B]

Oh, Pacey this was just, like, a

[A]

thing that was routinely in our shows and our movies at this point in time.

[B]

Right. And the one Giles being like, she's 18 and you have the maturity of a blueberry skull, but also Giles just being like, it's okay.

[A]

It's a wild moment for Giles at the dance. Wild moment. Was I a little bit distracted by how hot Giles looked in the tux, or did it take me a minute to process what he said? Possibly. Who can say?

[B]

Who can say?

[A]

But, like, that's just all you know. Oh, yeah. I'm here to. I'm here to watch Girls. Oh, sorry. And of course, when we're in his head and ears are shot. You're a bad, bad man. I'm just like. And then I don't have, like, my Gen Z and Gen Alpha lingo really down, but I do believe that this is what the kids mean when they say, it gave me the ick. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. When.

[A]

When Wesley and Cordelia finally kiss and

[B]

I'm like, but they give each other the ick.

[A]

They give each other the ick. And that's. I have the ick. My skin is curling. Ugh.

[B]

It's tough.

[A]

God.

[B]

It's also a tough season for Cordelia because it basically. We talked about this a little bit, but it basically just exists to backslide her into, like, her previous character. What do you know about. Tell me everything you know about the angel spin off, which we've talked about a little bit.

[A]

I mean, literally nothing. I, on mic and on camera found out that it took my assumption. I mean, I knew the show existed. I knew it existed. And then it ran for many seasons. Like, I think I knew it was five seasons that had gone on for years. Right. So I didn't. I didn't think that it was just, like, a little blip or anything. My assumption, though, I guess if I kind of play back the tape on all of my WBCW watching over the

[B]

years, like, you would think I came after Buffy.

[A]

That would have been. My assumption was that it came after Buffy and it was his spinoff after Buffy concluded. I guess if I had forced myself to think about it, I would have realized that wasn't true. Just based on, like, you know, all my tiger beaten J14 covers and stuff like that back in the day, like

[B]

David Boreanis was doing at the time. Sure.

[A]

Yeah. But even so, even when you told

[B]

me, like, this is it. This is. This is Angel's ex, it didn't occur

[A]

to me that it would be this, like, definitive that he would be really leaving this plotline to open up his other thing. I guess I was anticipating a little bit more of a. And maybe there's. I know some things that await in the future. I'm trying to remain kind of pure for the things. I don't know. I guess I was anticipating a little bit more Flash Arrow. Many crossover.

[B]

There's a little bit of crossover, but it was tough because Buffy after season five goes to a different network. And that's when the crossovers get really dicey between the two shows because it was UPN versus the cw. So. So I will say this has been a question a lot of the bad babies are asking which is like, how are you gonna cover season four with season one of angel running contemporaneously? And there is like, some, you know, angel will show up again. Buffy will show up on Angel. How are we gonna handle this? I don't know. I don't know yet. I haven't figured it out. I don't wanna add an entire other show to our roster. I don't think we can watch all of Angel.

[A]

Maybe we do it after or something. We'll see.

[B]

I think there's a couple episodes that we can sort of throw into. And it won't ruin you to see it.

[A]

But do any of those episodes of angel clarify definitively how. Unlike Giles, who is canonically established as a school librarian Wesley, a grown adult man who is not the school librarian, is just hanging out at a school all day. I'll tell you. Covered anywhere.

[B]

I'll tell you this. And I think it's okay. I mean, I understand you're trying to stay pure.

[A]

No, I have grown. I'm. I'm. For example, even seeing here Anya listed as, like, a seismic season three thing tells me something I do not know, which is that she has, like, now, I would anticipate, based on her role in these episodes, which I found wonderful. Yeah. That she would be back to the scope and extent. I have no idea. So that's like. That's one of the big. Even just, like, stumbling on.

[B]

I'm trying to keep you as. As innocent as possible. But I think.

[A]

I think I know some of the biggest things.

[B]

I think it's worth saying, like Cordelia. This is also the end of Cordelia's story.

[A]

Well, that I know for other reasons. I know that because of, like, real life reasons in terms of knowing when Charisma Carpenter.

[B]

Carpenter left. But she's on angel, so she. The angel spinoff is David Boreanas and Charisma Carpenter Establish that that spinoff.

[A]

Fascinating.

[B]

Which is like a fun pairing to think about. And then Wesley Wyndham Price is like a big, massive part of the angel show. And so like people love Wesley. This is like a very rough introduction to him. But then like he becomes this very important character for people.

[A]

I found the performance wonderfully entertaining. So I'm excited spend more time with him. And again, it's such a product of the late 90s to me that it's

[B]

like, here we are, here we are. Speaking of late 90s, let's talk about the Xander episode, the Zeppo.

[A]

Love.

[B]

This is, you know, as this season we're going to talk about a lot about the patriarchy when we get to talking about the Mayor a bit more. But like this season and it's dipping its toe a bit deeper into this idea of like, sort of like incel culture. Not necessarily as it pertains to Xander though through the 2026 lens, there's certainly plenty of that sort of gathered around Xander. But like Jonathan in Earshot or Tucker certainly in the prom episode, this sort of idea is percolating. But this very like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead approach where the Hellmouth is opening in the background of Xander's plot inside of this episode. It's a really fun point of view. And Whedon said later about the television series Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. quote, this is basically a TV of the Zeppo, which is a very deliberate deconstruction of a Buffy episode in order to star the person who mattered the least. The people who are ignored are the people I've been writing as my heroes from day one. So this idea of Xander as the heart, or as I like to call him the Jelly Donut is something that will go on and on. But this is a. It's a thing that crops up in some of these like supernatural team up shows where like as we talked about before, members of the team all start sort of acquiring power. So like Willow and her exploration of Wicca, you know, Oz and his. His werewolf ness, et cetera, et cetera. And then you got Xander the Zeppo and he's also here. What did you think of this episode?

[A]

This is one of my favorites to date. And in general, part of what I loved, I mean everything about this season, just in terms of its cohesion, I loved. We'll talk about the Mayor, the Big Bad, the centering of human heroes and human villains and just complex human figures. It's just all wonderful. Part of what I love so much about this stretch is that there's a great Willow episode, there's a great Xander episode, and that they all have these through lines of Seth, where am I?

[B]

Seth Green was filming Austin Powers, too.

[A]

So Oz comes through some wonderful moments in this series.

[B]

Every Oz line is incredible. But in terms of, like, Seth Green is now a series regular. Did we push his story forward in any way? No. Oz is like. Oz works really well because he doesn't change. But I think Seth Green was hoping for, like, a bit more. Yeah.

[A]

I loved to the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern point. Structurally, I thought that was so smart inside of the Zeppo, like, especially because it's not just because actually, you know, picking up this hat of the season, there's a little part of me for Xander and Willow. And Willow, of course, like, really actively attacks this with Buffy, which was one of my favorite parts of the season. Wait, all of a sudden, you don't think I can hack this anymore?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is just a really interesting, like, evolution inside of their relationships that connects to everything by faith.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it kind of caught me off guard right away. The opening scene where, like, Xander, like, oh, my God, you could have died. You should get out of here. But then it became the engine that takes us into this wonderful examination of, like, psychology and insecurity. And so the. That it's not just that something is happening and we're in the shadows with Xander as our primary point of view character for the episode. It's like, the most intense thing is happening. Right? The sisterhood of Jay. Yeah. The apocalyptic stakes. And with the helm of Forget the face.

[B]

That thing had a face. Yeah.

[A]

It's like the most dangerous thing that has ever happened is happening. And we're like, let's go get ingredients to bake a cake and all. It's like, genius.

[B]

What I love about it, too, is that it. It operates as if. If you've never seen this episode before and you don't know what it's about, and you start it and you're like, why is everyone speaking so melodramatically this, like, you know, they're just, like, speaking these grandiose proclamations. So we get to, like, satirize what Buffy does while enjoying this story with Xander and the series.

[A]

I think the funniest example of that in the episode was when Xander cuts into the middle of the Angel Buffy conversation. Killed me.

[B]

It's so good. That was great.

[A]

And on the, like, yeah, everyone is special, but you front. I just love that in stories. And I thought this was a great way to examine that with Xander, you know, Cordelia coming in really aggressively and saying to him, like, it must be really hard, right? When all your friends have, like, superpower, slayer, werewolf, which is vampires, and you're like this little nothing. You must feel like Jimmy Olson. And he's like, wait, I was just making that joke. Oh, right. When you say it to me, it just feels like. Actually, it makes me feel like nothing. And the way he was talking to Oz about this idea of cool, it's like, well, what makes you cool? What's your thing? You need to find that if you're Xander because you feel like you don't have the other thing that everyone, which isn't just like, ah, is what makes you cool. Is it the way you play the guitar? You should short to the point.

[B]

His, like, laconic answers.

[A]

It's that Xander's like, I'm not. I don't have a supernatural ability. So that it would feel almost strange to not have a version of that story in this stretch and to do it so creatively. I just loved. Also, everything with Katie the Knife was hysterical. Great episode.

[B]

Doppelgang Land. Another banger. Which our producer, Carlos, has said in our notes. Vampire Willow changed lives my life. In particular. Particular love that for you, Carlos. I think it's really important. Willow. When Willow says it's horrible, that's me as a vampire. I'm so evil and skanky and I think I'm kind of gay. Buffy says, willow, just remember a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was. NASA goes, well, actually, that's a good point. This is to your point, this is an incredible Willow episode. And again, as we're talking about doubles and duality and stuff like that, we've got Wesley and Giles, we've got Willow and Vampire Willow. Like, what does Vampire Willow teach Willow? And Willow comes in and has to sort of the same way that Xander takes this stand at the end of the Zeppo and stares down his enemy and wins, you know, Willow, a little less successfully, has to sort of, like, pretend to be this badass vampire as she comes into the Bronze, so dressed up in these leathers. Look at those. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. This is one of Joss Whedon's top 10 favorite episodes of Buffy. I'm gonna hit you with a list. Which is number 10, Prophecy Girl from season one, which we have seen, which we both called out as a great episode. Number nine, Conversation with Dead People from season seven, which you haven't seen yet, but is an incredible episode. Number eight, Restless season four. I'm not as high on restless as Joss Whedon is, but it is an impactful episode. Number seven, becoming part two from season two, which we talked about. Number six, the Wish from season three.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Number five, Doppelgang Land.

[A]

It's a great one.

[B]

And then the top four, Innocence Once More, Feeling Hush in the Body. We always talk about as like sort of the canonical top. Right. You know, I'm distraught that Passion's not here on the list, but that's okay. We can all have personal opinions, but feels like Joss loves Anya, given that he gave us Doppelgang Land and the Wish here on the list. And this idea of like an alternate reality, et cetera. Introduction to Buffy. How did you feel about this episode? Are you surprised to see it at number five on Joss Whedon's all time Buffy episodes?

[A]

Not necessarily, I think because it's like, creative structurally.

[B]

And I just.

[A]

I think when Willow has like an episode that. That centers around her, it's just very satisfying and rewarding to watch.

[B]

Yeah, you love it.

[A]

Must have been creatively too.

[B]

Ira bought you, Jane. You're like, that's my fave.

[A]

I did enjoy that episode as, you know, picked a lot of superlatives for that episode.

[B]

But.

[A]

But, you know, I think just in terms of what it unlocks thematically, obviously, like, Buffy is our central figure is gonna be the biggest driver of that. But when other characters can heighten and enhance, either a parallel or a distinction, I think that just makes the whole universe and world feel more fully fleshed out. So, like, this idea with Willow and vampire Willow of, like, what's nature, what's nurture, Whether it's being a vampire or being a slayer or being a Wicca or whatever the case, a werewolf, whatever the case would be, like, what changes you?

[B]

What enhances?

[A]

And amplifiers, like super soldiers here. Something that's already inside of you. Like, that's such an interesting thing to explore and play with. And it's also just a great stretch for Willow, like I said, because she. She stands up for herself so consistently and she's. And that was the other thing in Doppelganglin that I loved was just. It's not what don't I like about what I see, it's what do I kind of envy about this other version of me, you know? And so when she's first pretending at the Bronze, when she's impersonating vampire Willow and, like talking about regular Willow actually speaking about herself, right. It's like you know, and she's this and she's that and she's afraid and she's, like, meek. And then she blames other people for the things that, like, she's feeling. It was such an interesting example of kind of like play acting. Your genuine anxiety and projection, which I thought was really great. So, you know, that self reflection. And then I think everything with what Willow is looking at with, like, Buffy and Faith and feeling on the outside of that relationship and really deciding to actively challenge it and say, like, why would you treat me as somebody who couldn't handle this? I. I loved. Loved weird vibes to be like, you gotta. You can't kill her. You gotta save her. And then she just immediately gets.

[B]

Yeah. Skewered.

[A]

Immediately.

[B]

Tough. The prom. This is just a huge, iconic Buffy moment. And I can't remember if I brought this up in part one of our coverage of the season, but Chloe Zha has said that she, on the set of the Buffy reboot, memorized the speech that Jonathan gives at the prom here, and they got an umbrella for Sarah Michelle Gellar and gave it to her on the set of the show.

[A]

Great stuff.

[B]

And that's just a really beautiful idea. But Buff, the class protector, and this idea of being seen, really seen, like, by her classmates for who she is and all of her complexity, really answering the who are you? Question that we get at the beginning of the season. I love this twist, this unexpected twist and turn of the plot where it's like, yes, it beggars belief that these kids all year, all the years that we've been here have not caught onto. And so they're like, yeah, we know weird stuff happens here. And actually, we've noticed what you do. And the fact that they see her is just like, I cry every single time that I watch that scene. The fact that it's Jonathan off of the back of earshot is, like, so important. And this idea that, like, Buffy inside of especially this stretch of the season is caught between. You know you mentioned the rejection of the Watchers Council, right? That first Giles gets fired and then Buffy quits the Watchers Council. So the rejection of the rigidity of those rules, as personified by Wesley and the rest of the patriarchy at the Watchers Council, and then the anarchical, violent, chaos rules don't apply to us path that Faith takes in the back half of the season, and Buffy's caught in between here and what she then has to really decide for herself is like, if you're not gonna go by the sort of institutional rules like what the Watchers Council says is the right and proper thing to do. But you're not gonna say, no, rules apply to me. Then you are forced inside of yourself to figure out what your personal code is and where your line is. And that's much harder than just following the rules that are given to you. It's creating your own structure and your own sense of morality. It's a real growing up moment. Hopefully that happens for everyone, but certainly that happens for Buffy inside of this back half. And I just love that. Sort of like these pulls on her and her forging her own path in the middle of that and then being rewarded by this moment of being seen, especially inside of, you know, a show that had a. Had a girl literally disappear, you know, in season one because her classmates didn't notice her, didn't see her. We do have a clip for this. I would clip this entire speech if I could, but legally we can't. So Carlos did his best for me to clip this.

[A]

We're proud to say that the class of 99 has the lowest mortality rate of any graduating class in Sunnydale history. And we know at least part of that is because of you. So the senior class offers its thanks and gives you this. It's from all of us. And it has written here, buffy Summers, Class Protector.

[B]

Like my eyes.

[A]

Wonderful.

[B]

Get a little teary just seeing that. So, yeah, Buffy knows exactly who she is. Until next season at least. So that's great. We got this great email from Clifton that I wanted to read about this moment. Buffy receiving the Class Protector Award at the prom might be my single favorite moment in the entire show. Gel says his line, I never knew children en masse could be so gracious. It's such a powerful line that communicates a lot. The moment matters so much because it's unsolicited, yes, but also collective and perceptive. Buffy has been routinely mocked, dismissed, feared, ignored, and has accepted that time and time again as just the cost of doing what. What she needs to do. But season three finally allows her class to see her clearly a protector. I would also say it's critical that she gets the Protector Award and not the Hero Award or the Warrior Award or something. Buffy is a shield or an umbrella, ultimately not a sword. And that dichotomy explains a lot about Buffy versus Faith. And once they see her, they act. The season basically moves from individuals refusing to see the truth to a collective choosing to see and to stand with what they scene. Clearly doesn't solve problems. It forces responsibility. Faith flees from it, while Buffy accepts it and the class joins her in one of the most fist pumping moments committed to video. Mali Rubin, how did you feel watching this, this episode, this scene in particular?

[A]

I loved this one and I thought that this moment was beautiful. You know, I'll spoil. Now this is my pick for most emotional moment. I don't know how it couldn't be the combination of what Jonathan says, which is so lovely, and, and the umbrella and the look on Buffy's face and the look on Giles face and then what Giles says, as Clifton wrote at the end, and just the recognition of really the rarity of that kind of collective embrace and acknowledgement is like such a lovely thing. You know, I think we, I think about this a lot in the stories that I love. And also just in real life, it's like, that's like kind of the rarest currency is like, does some. Can somebody see you clearly? Like either what is actually special about you or what you can provide.

[B]

And like we were talking about this recently. Is anyone actually knowable? Yeah.

[A]

And like the fact that the answer to that can maybe be no, but also there is a certain quality that is like undeniable and important. And I think it's like the rarity and beauty of that on its own in a vacuum would be incredibly like moving and rewarding. But I think it is further heightened. And the, the, the, it's. The fact that it's so impactful is increased because like the, and we've been talking about this across the pods and we'll talk about it more today with the mayor. But like the structures around these kids, whether it's like, I like that they, you know, hyena people, great stuff, but like, Snyder got knock.

[B]

Snyder hyena people is like one of my favorite moments inside of the show.

[A]

A great Buffy like microcosm of the humor leading right into the heart there. But.

[B]

And also remembering hyena people from season one,

[A]

frankly, who could forget the, you know, the fact that like, this school is a house of horrors in the high school as hell way, but also literally every day there's some great affliction waiting around every bend. And the fact that the mayor, who is in theory tasked with the protection and preservation of this town and this community, like any physical manifestation of community, your school, your home, the town, the government, all of these forces of evil inside of those are not only maybe failing, like in the case of Snyder, who is of course, like, you know, in cahoots to some extent, but failing to do even an iota of what Buffy is Able to do. Like, in the case of the mayor, he's actively offering up the people he should be protecting.

[B]

He wants to eat the children. Yeah.

[A]

As, like, the rituals and offerings to his position. Yeah. Bloody offering. Exactly. So, yeah, it's like Buffy is not only doing all of these things, but doing them in opposition to all of the other examples around everybody every day of how easy it is to do the opposite. So I just thought this was really, really lovely and wonderful. And just the look of gratitude on her face was so beautiful.

[B]

Because you're so smart and I can't get anything past you. When I introduced a Jonathan category in season two, you're like, this makes me think Jonathan's gonna be important. I was like, no. And like. But honestly, I was being very honest because I do love the little ways that Jonathan has used for, like, Dani Strong is just so great. And I just, like, love tipping the chip earlier.

[A]

This is so wonderful.

[B]

All the little Jonathan isms. Leading up to earshot, I think is just, like, an incredible slow role. We also get, like, you know, Harmony and Larry die in the finale of this season of television. Like, and these are, again, like, little. We've just had little moments with Harmony, little moments with Larry leading up to this. And now it's like, their fodder here at the battle. Probably. If I was, like, as old as I am now, I'd feel about that the way I feel about the Battle of Winterfell, where I'm, like, no real person involved.

[A]

Dare you.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I love a couple of our absolute faves.

[B]

Jorah. I know Jorah. But, like, Theon's death.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's beautiful. I think works better for me than Jorah's death in that battle does. You know what I mean? Theon's moment is really, really good.

[A]

Anyway, he got a wonderful slow mo. Musical accompaniment.

[B]

So let's talk about Faith. Let's do it in earshot. There's this great scene where Buffy is absolutely bedeviling the sort of, like, goody, goody class person. Were you, like, a hand raised front row ho. Like, in English class? I was. That was me.

[A]

It evolved over time.

[B]

And, like, I don't like knowing that about myself, but it was true.

[A]

So evolved over time, not in, like, middle school, but by high school and college, certainly. And, like, to the point where then if I wasn't commenting on something, I would often get called on just for making a face. You have. You clearly have something to say. You're making a face. Something that would happen pretty routinely.

[B]

Part of it, for Me, there was the, like, I'm excited about this and I want to share it, or I want validation for being thoughtful or whatever, you know, unflattering thing. But also, sometimes the teacher would ask a question. No one would say anything. And I would feel so anxious on their behalf.

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[B]

That I would raise my hand and say something because I was like, I feel bad for the teacher if they ask a question and no one says anything.

[A]

Did you ever use the power of telepathy to access one of your teacher's former thesis and share exactly passages from that? And then I'll never teach her.

[B]

Be like, I'll never discuss which aspects of the demon I manifested in my senior year of high school. But in earshot in that scene, they talk about Iago being the dark half of Othello himself, which is, of course, like, what Faith represents for Buffy inside of this season. Let's play this great clip from the episode Enemies.

[A]

Everyone always asks, why can't you be more like Buffy? But did anyone ever ask if you could be more like me? Me? No, I didn't.

[B]

You get the watcher, you get the

[A]

mom, you get the little Scooby gang. What do I get? Jack squat. This was supposed to be my town.

[B]

Incredible scene in general. Great, like, psych moment from Buffy at the end of that. Really, really good. Faith caught monologuing. Like, it. It's. It's all happening.

[A]

She does it well.

[B]

But this is what Jayna Spenson said about Faith. Here's a slayer who makes the wrong choice. Throughout the season, you can see Buffy flirting with the idea of making those choices. And Marty talking about Xander. Marty Knox and talking about Xander. And Faith says it ended up being about the idea of the abuse of power. Nature versus nurture, the responsibility of strength, ideas, rather than more relatable melodrama. And there's this line in Consequences which comes after Faith kills Allen. Rip Allen.

[A]

The whole town being like, oh, my God, this murder. I'm like, like, guys.

[B]

Allan's beloved.

[A]

Sure. And then the legions of dead who none of you gave a about, but

[B]

Allan Wild and his, you know, number

[A]

two on the list of astonishing developments in this season after dicey mayonnaise.

[B]

Dicey relationship with mayonnaise. Anyway, in Consequences, I understand in Consequences, Buffy says, but it does not mean that we get to pass judgment on people like, we're better than everybody else. And Faith says, we are better. And this is, of course, yeah, the dark side of. With great power comes great responsibility. What do you think about all this?

[A]

Oh, my God. This is just. This is the good shit right here. This is the stuff, Lionel.

[B]

This is the stuff, Lionel.

[A]

This is just great. Yeah.

[B]

Strong and Baratheon.

[A]

Exactly. We talk so much about there before the Grace. It is incorporated into active discussion in these episodes of television. I love Faith. That clip you picked is such a great encapsulation of the opposite. Right there before the Grace. Well, what about, like, where about for the ch. Yeah. Like I'm supposed to be the Chosen One. Chosen too. What the fuck is this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This isn't what I was expecting at all. I think there's something really honest about that and I love. This is another. It doesn't last long, but I thought it was really smart to have Buffy be for a period of time before what Faith does in their.

[B]

And their.

[A]

And then the rupture that it causes. Incredibly self involved. Really. Like high on her own supply and on the Slayer supply and casting out the people closest in her life.

[B]

Bad Girls is one of the most important episodes of television ever.

[A]

So the I don't think you can moment with. That's like you kind of need Buffy to be tiptoeing into the dark. Yeah. For a second there. So that she can have the clarity of really what that would feel like and look like. I thought that that was like a real good, very smart way to kind of heighten it.

[B]

The.

[A]

The Bad Girls slaying's what we're built for. If you're not enjoying it, there's something wrong moment gave me such. On the Throne's front.

[B]

Jon. Dany.

[A]

Everyone enjoys what they're good at. I don't want it. I love that moment with John.

[B]

Do you think that's what Kit Harrington said after he kissed Sophie Turner? And that clip that went around. Maybe don't want it.

[A]

It's been a powerful week to be a Kit Harrington fan. I gotta say. Boy.

[B]

Henry Muc.

[A]

My God.

[B]

This is your weekly industry check in. Mommy. This is my.

[A]

This is my. I think at this point it's more than once a week of mentioning industry on House of R Talk. The Thrones, but my God, muck. What a time to be a muck fan. And then I think just like also in a big picture sense with Faith, the extra degree of despair that you feel that she seeks out the mayor. Like the fact that it is not. He didn't come to her. He didn't manipulate her. She makes an active choice and Choices is one of the episode names for a reason. It's so central, this idea of what you're deciding Right off the heel of

[B]

this moment where she and Buffy are disagreeing. She's at the docks. She's maybe gonna skip town. And then she kills Mr. Trick. Rip, I could have used more Mr. Trick, personally.

[A]

Mr. Trick is wonderful.

[B]

She kills Mr. Trick in this moment of seemingly saving Buffy. It's this incredibly complicated moment. She and Buffy are at odds, and then she saves her. And you're like, oh, my God, is Faith gonna turn. There's so many. Oh, my God, is Faith gonna turn a corner? Angel has her and is reasoning with her, and Wesley shows up and fucks it up. Like, there's so many moments where it's just, so can we make it with Faith? And, I mean, listen, she ends the season in a coma.

[A]

So doesn't seem great, but I don't know what awaits.

[B]

Guess what? Even the fact it's not the last

[A]

time you'll see a lie. She's not dead dead. Even the fact that the gambit with angel, that Faith is running before the tables turn there. You know, I'm scaring myself. I know the feeling. It felt like there were pretty consistent injections of truth. You know, your lies are always more powerful when there's truth behind them. And so that just like the false starts of Wait, she saved Buffy. A lot of moments that pull you into the fact that there could. I was expecting the entire time watching this season for the first time for Faith to come back around the entire time. Yeah. So it was astonishing to me, but in a very satisfying way that that is not how it went.

[B]

Dream Faith does so, you know, while

[A]

a cat was involved. So

[B]

this is our listener Brent. On the back of what she says in Enemies there when she talks about, like, you have the mom, you have the Scoobies, you have everything. And we had been talking about a real bone I have to pick with Joyce and Buffy this season is the fact that Faith is left languishing in this shitty motel, and it takes the mayor to take her out of the motel and put her in a loft somewhere with a lot of gauzy curtains. And I'm like, why couldn't Joyce do that? And our listener Brett, wrote in to say, I believe the point of this decision is to show how we cannot ignore our dark side. When we ignore the darkest parts of ourselves. They grow in the shadows. Our darkness will grow and change one way or another. We can either take it in the house and help bring light to the dark, or we can lock it away in a crappy motel and let it fester until it comes to destroy our good sides. I loved that. I thought that was so smart, but I just. I love Faith. I love this term for faith. We are despairing because we have come to care about Faith. So it is despairing to see her make these choices, to go down this path. This is, of course, kind of what we went through with angel in season two. Does it feel at all repetitive to you to see, like, a character that we cared about who was close to Buffy becomes an antagonist in the back half of the season?

[A]

I would say, if anything, the opposite. Like, not only did it not feel like a retread, I think that the fact that one fall, like angel in Angel's case, was supernaturally driven and really rooted in the helplessness of the inability to be in control of your choices and the way that you want to live your life for your actual desires to be completely irrelevant is that tells us something different than what happens with Faith here, which is this very deeply human choice born out of need and want and jealousy and lust for power and insecurity and how those are as powerful and as mighty as any supernatural force. That feels really important in this story. But also, just more broadly, there's more than one form that disappointment can take in your life. So I like reinforcing that. And then we talked about. About Last Pod when just discussing the introduction of Faith. I think it's interesting still to keep showing us different versions of what a slayer's life can look like. So, yeah, and then I think especially because angel ends up sort of functioning as, like, this Herald, right? Like, she's got a taste for it, and then briefly seeks to be a guide, and then, of course, has to be this oppositional force.

[B]

That's some of my favorite Porina stuff this season, actually, is angel trying to reason with Faith or help Faith, and then, you know, fucking Wesley shows up on the bad girls front, as I want to do. I do want to shout out my pals over at the Buffering podcast because they, at a live show that I attended, did a lengthy PowerPoint presentation all about how they had a map of Sunnydale. We've got the timestamps of when Buffy and Faith go to slay a nest of vampires. And then the next time we see them, there is a, I believe, a costume change. And they are dancing at the Bronze. Dancing sexy at the Bronze.

[A]

They sure are.

[B]

And based on, like, timing.

[A]

Chuckle from Carlos.

[B]

It's a great season for Carlos. Based on timing, how you can get around Sunnydale. The point of the PowerPoint was faith and Buffy definitely Fucked inside of this episode. That is their assertion. Right. The Buffy, Faith sexual. These are not undertones. These are overtones that were very intentionally there. Doug Petrie, who help create Faith, has talked about, like, yeah, yeah, I was, like, really, really aware of what we were doing in the original script for Enemies, when Faith gives Buffy a smooch on the forehead and says, you kill me, you become me. All of that. It was originally supposed to be a smooch on the mouth. So they're definitely not even just flirting with this. They are definitely just really trying to go for it as much as they felt like they could in 1999. I mean, vampire Willow does lick Willow. So we are just sort of like, circling all of this inside of this.

[A]

I found it all very compelling.

[B]

Our listener, listen, said, I would love to hear you talk about the Faith and Buffy sexual tension. Anything you want to say about that in particular, Mallory?

[A]

I think it is, as you said, subtext and active text alike. I think I will say this is specific to the Faith aspect of this. I think that because so much of her lust and the way that Buffy and other characters talk about what, like, intimacy means to Faith, if this had been explored more overtly in the show, I could have seen it going 2. I could see it, like, having gone two ways. On the one hand, I could see Buffy or anybody else really wondering maybe how genuine that feeling was on Faith's part. Right. But then there's an opportunity to really, like, heighten the connection as a result of that, because it could stand in contrast to the kind of boy toy for a night Xander experience. So, yeah, it's the dance. The cut to the dancing at the Bronze is it's. I'll immediately put it in the headcanon next to Steve Rogers and Natasha in the car. Yeah. On the road.

[B]

Listen, bad girls with the, like, the heart on the window, the breaking through the window with the light streaming behind them, like the two Slayers getting ready to fight. And then the bad girls dancing at the Bronze moment are just, like, iconic. Yeah, it's great Buffy, Vampire Slayer show.

[A]

I learned from Faith at the beginning of the season that slaying just always makes you hungry and horny. So what else were they gonna do

[B]

between slaying a neck of vampires and dancing at the Bronze?

[A]

It's also, again, this doesn't diminish the prospect of a more fully realized and sincere connection. There's something that would also, I think, feel very right to me about Faith. It's very like Loki, Sylvie Seismic narcissist. Coded to me of like, who would you possibly be more inclined to want to touch and fuck and fall in love with and worship than somebody who reminds you of yourself? If you're. If you think that you are the best in the world because you're special,

[B]

because you're a slayer, well, it reminds you of your.

[A]

Makes us different.

[B]

Reminds you of yourself, but like the version of yourself that everyone else seems to find more palatable. Right. The blonder, better version of yourself. Yeah. The mayor. Let's talk about the mayor. As you alluded to before, this is the first non vampire big Bad. And it sparks a trend for the rest of the series. Like, we had the master, we had Spike, we had Angelus. And we're like, okay, we get it. Vampires, We've defeated them. We get it. You're evil. Where can we go from here? We've got a demon with a human face inside of. Or a human who wants to become a demon. A true demon inside of the mayor. I love the contrast. His, like. I mean, he's so funny. Mayor Richard Wilkins is so, so funny. And. But alongside that humor, his like, fussiness, his prissiness is a really nice contrast to the impulsivity of Spike and Angelus and Drusilla. Their appetites, their like, you know, angel just like letting passion overcome him and stuff like that. And the mayor is a planner.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Biting his tongue, you know, golly gee whillikers and all of that. So I just think that it is incredibly good. And we got a great email from our listener Cesar, talking about all the human. You alluded to this, but like, the Watchers Council, Wesley and Gwendolyn Post, Jonathan the lunch lady in earshot. Like, humans can be just as dangerous as vampires. Demons of the forces of darkness. This isn't a season where evil conveniently wears a demonic face. It's a season that asks harder questions about complicity, institutional failure, which you were underlining and the choices people make. I do. We're gonna talk about him as like a Bizarro Giles.

[A]

And I really want to get your

[B]

take on that, but I want to. I want to talk about like, the patriarchy, which we talked about when it comes to the Watchers Council. And I want to talk about again when it comes to Richard Wilkins, because he's got this like, again, golly, G. Williker's Ted Wheeler esque, like, language sort of approach to thing, which is very funny and very fun and really well done. But also this, like, he's quite literally patronizing the way that he talks about Talks to Faith as, like a daughter figure. Right. Which is so. It is similar and different from the way that Giles thinks of Buffy as a daughter. You know, he's about building Buffy up to be as strong as she can be. And. And Faith is just a weapon for the mayor to wield at the end of the day. But these literally patronizing quotes from him, like talking to Faith. This isn't a free ride, young lady. You know, I'm beginning to think that somebody's getting a little spoiled. Maybe I should just take this back. Or to Buffy. So you're the little girl that's been causing me all this rubble. She's pretty. Angel. And then later he calls her a whore. And like to wrap that all up. Wait. With Buffy taunting the just really elegant CGI snake that is Mayor Wilkins at the Ascension. You want to get it back for me? Dick?

[A]

That was great.

[B]

It's just incredible stuff. Anything you want to say about that? Or this idea of him as sort of a bizarro Giles figure? Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I had to do some soul searching and reflect on the fact that I have a very similar relationship to germs as Mayor Dick Wilkins. Something like, this guy might be onto something here. This guy.

[B]

Cleanliness is next to godliness. Dick.

[A]

Share the rest of the platform. You know, I think that the, like,

[B]

Mayor Wilkins III had some points. Had some good points.

[A]

A great whiskey cabinet and like, hand cloths. Hand wipes. Before maybe they were quite as prevalent as they are now. I respect it. I do know everything else.

[B]

Seemingly a talented golfer.

[A]

Yeah. He could work on. He could stand to work on his short game. I think the fact that he celebrated hitting that putt so robustly indicates he's missing a lot of them.

[B]

The.

[A]

Pull your hair back. You know, you'd look nice with your hair pulled back. And like, the. The pink dress. Not only wooing Faith with the. The.

[B]

The.

[A]

The loft, but like the PlayStation. I'll buy you an icy. The single most disgusting moment to me to date across three seasons of Buffy was when he poured Faith a glass of milk. Which, like, really room temp.

[B]

Just sitting out milk. You need to talk to my friend Dany about this.

[A]

I would love to. I'm like, I'm scarred by that. You know, I think it is so effective in a couple ways. One, it is something that Faith sees that she can use. That there's like a space there that she can occupy. Right. But also it is to the, like, their truth and the lies discussion from a few minutes ago. It is something that Faith doesn't have and didn't have and misses, like, the way that she kind of casually and sarcastically says elsewhere. Can we skip the, like, mom didn't love me part? Like, that is a wound for her. Right. And so to have the mayor as a character who is giving Faith some really warped and kind of twisted and sick version of a thing that she lacked, and that Buffy. But as we know from being inside of Buffy's home and life, it's not perfect. It's not easy.

[B]

Joyce, we have some notes.

[A]

Joyce, we have some notes. Giles, we've had some notes. Right. And so there's always that question of, like, what does. Where your jealousy leads you to think that somebody else has something in full and completely that you lack. I like the way that this captured it. And I think that we've been talking since the beginning of season one about, with Giles and Buffy, obviously, my favorite relationship in the show. The impact that they've had on each other and the way that they have learned and grown collectively and positively influenced each other and, like, face challenges together and push through them together. You know, there's like, a version of the. The mayor and Faith where you're like, that's not what this is at all. But then there are these. The fact that the end. I was like, it's gonna be the germs, right? At the end, it is gonna be the germs. And then the fact that it's like. Like this dagger reminds you of Faith, and that is how I can lead you to your doom was such an interesting way to just really heighten and reinforce the parallels. You know, this thing might have been, like, his humanity. Yeah. There's, like, a transactional aspect to the relationship initially, but it doesn't mean that even the villain is incapable of forging an attachment and an affection that is. Even if it's warped. Warped is, on some level, for them, sincere. And giving them both something that they needed. And especially because we got to hear him talk when he was lecturing angel and Buffy about the passage of time and their relationship. A scene that I really loved. We get to hear him talk about his love and what he loves.

[B]

You mean Edna Mae and Wilkins?

[A]

What it was like to watch her

[B]

melt away and wrinkled in cnn, cursing me for my youth.

[A]

Yeah. And then you're like, well, damn, that actually sounds really hard and lonely. So I just thought this was all great. And, like, when he pours the milk and puts her in a pink dress and tells her to pull her hair back, I'm, like, revolted. And Appalled. But then there are moments that just draw you in.

[B]

And I think the way that Eliza Dushku plays it. Cause, like, just her, like, kind of shy little smile sometimes when he, like. It's a fucked up, warped dynamic. But she's getting something that she kind of wanted from Gwendolyn Post, if Gwendolyn Post could offer it. And she kind of wanted it from, like, maybe Joyce or maybe Giles. But they are. You know, they are. That is that space is already occupied by Buffy for them. And so it's like. Like she's. She was so thirsty for this that even though it comes from this completely demonic, warped source who's asking her to do horrible things, there's this girlish sort of, you know, delight that she takes

[A]

it in the moment where he's like, if Buffy walked in right now, I'd still pick you. It's like such a kind of, like, pro. It's just prototypical gaslighting. Right. And manipulation. But it is. Oh, okay. Are you the only person who would make that choice moment for Faith? So this is brilliant.

[B]

I do love, like, the. The fact that he's been at this for three generations. More like, same exact guy. Same exact. Same exact guy. Right. But the fact that he's been sort of like, ruling shadow. Ruling over Sunnydale, you know, since the turn of last century means that the way that Sunnydale is in terms of, like, hiding the supernatural, like this. This premise that beggars belief that like, yeah, you know, pcp, gang violence, pcp or like, you know, backed up sewers or whatever the case may be. All. All these, like, Snyder excuses come from a century of an institution hiding demonic activity inside of Sunnydale. And I think that's incredibly smart. And then like, the impervious aspect, which I absolutely. I mean, like, special effects.

[A]

We have some questions, but more than a few.

[B]

But the impervious aspect and this idea, I'm like. Like Epstein files cooked, as most people are in our country right now. But the idea that, like, the rich and powerful are impervious to. They could be, like, doing demonic activity right in your face. And you could throw a letter opener at them or something like that, and it won't touch them because they are above, you know, and it takes, you know, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, someone to sort of permeate those halls of power, which I think is.

[A]

And like the frat boys, like, the, you know, previously, this idea that how they actually got that power in the first place is because they're willing to offer you up to the beast in Their lair. And then again, that great touch inside of that, though, of saying, like, without ever crossing the line into, oh, we're saying that like, even though it is literally framed as like, the human impulse is the weakness that we can exploit, never making that feel like the bad thing for Buffy or our scoopies, like this supernatural impervious being. It wasn't the blade through the head. It wasn't the letter opener in the hand. It wasn't actually the germs.

[B]

He's Impulse. The TNT in the library.

[A]

He's impervious and invulnerable when he wears the face of a man.

[B]

Well, when he's a snake.

[A]

When he's. Yeah, that's when they can get him by preying upon his humanity. That's just a fascinating kind of contradiction.

[B]

All the pieces are so satisfying. The fact that, like, we know a thing or two about explosives or Anya, who we met earlier, way earlier in the season, has some information. Cause she was around during the last Ascension, you know, like all of every single piece. Peace is. Is. Feels intentionally put in. In place. You. You already alluded to this great scene in I believe it's Choices where the mayor talks to angel, echoing, yeah, what the first evil says and amends. Echoing what Spike says in Lovers Walk. Echoing what Joyce will come to say when she's like, she could go to Northwestern. Are you kidding me? What are you doing? Holding her back. And then his dream of Buffy's wedding. This is all setting up for angel to depart the show in a way that feels believable. In a way for him to still like, seemingly the two of them still being the loves of each other's lives. And it still feels accurate, correct in character that it follows the story that he would leave. Because when you do a spin off, when a character leaves, either because the actor's done or a spin off or whatever the case may be. I'm always from a. Take apart the machine of this TV show and look at the parts and put it back together. I'm always looking for how organic is this departure. The fact that they plan this for a while sort of gives them a lot of Runway. And so you can have amends and lovers walk and choices and all these things lead up to this. But how did it work for you? And how did it work as a goodbye knowing because I spoiled for you, this is the end of Angel.

[A]

No, again, even then I'm like, I assume we'll be back after a show or. I don't know. Um,

[B]

I.

[A]

This worked well for me. I Think that it was imperative that Buffy voiced inside of the show a lot of the things that I was thinking, because the fact that, like, Spike. We love that lovers walk scene and Spike knows of what he speaks. Right. But the fact that, like, Joyce is meddling with Buffy's life is actually, like, really, like, repellent to me, given the drama, Joyce, Buffy history, and the fact that, like, the mayor, this bro, like, comes in and is like, are you sure? And then Angel's like, good point.

[B]

No, but, like. But the worst person, you know, has a point.

[A]

Yeah, right. I think the fact that Buffy voices in the show, like, well, what about what I want? What about what I think about my own life? Do I not get a say in. Like, do I not get to be the arbiter of my own heart? She does say that to him. If that had not happened, I actually. I think I would not have liked this because. But because she says that, and then it is like angel is. It just ultimately then heightens the sacrifice and the tragedy of the fact that they don't feel like they can be together. That he, part of his kind of eternal torment, is not feeling like he's worthy of and deserving of that kind of happiness. Because if he gets it, it is, like, a literal risk. Right. But also, it is coming at, like, the expense of a fuller and more true experience from the person he cares about the most in the world. That all felt, like, really right to me. For Angel, I was glad that Buffy was kind of like, fuck off. And then they have time over many episodes to work toward the really emo and very dramatic and real chef's kiss in a great, like, late 90s way. I'm just gonna watch you from the fog and miss. I was like, this is great. This is very good. So, yeah, I did enjoy the fact

[B]

that the nature, I think the clever nature of the poison and the slayer of blood and he has to drink from her. So we get one more pseudo sex scene between the two of them, but also how dangerous that was for Buffy.

[A]

Yeah. And what is Buffy willing to risk for him? And then is Xander always the most trusted and impartial authority when it comes to angel and Buffy? No. But when he says, good to know that you'll be willing to risk the person you love most to save your own ass, like, there's a kernel of something there. So everybody gets like, a, no, I'm

[B]

not allowed to give Xinder any. Any. Any cor.

[A]

She, like.

[B]

She, like, not forces him, but she, like, beats the shit out of Angel. In order to get him to like, vamp out.

[A]

Then he really latches on. He stops the crushing of the metal. Really very powerful and great stuff. So, yeah, this was all. This was all, like, really good. I also. I don't know if this is like, completely sacrilegious to say. Like, I'm kind of of excited to see Buffy explore relationships with other people. Like, I feel like it really.

[B]

I think it is so fitting this is her high school boyfriend.

[A]

Another graduation.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It feels. Feels like the right time.

[B]

I'm not anti angel Buffy. It's not, as you know, not my, like, canonical ship from this show. But I. But it has its place. It's a high school romance and it like. Yeah, absolutely. All right, last but not least, before we get into our superlative, I'm calling this section Riddles in the Dark. I get to take you into theory corner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Carlos, will you play this clip from Graduation Day, Part two, please?

[A]

There's something I'm supposed to be doing. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Miles to go.

[A]

Little Miss Muffet counting down from seven three zero. Great. Riddles. Oh, look at that cat.

[B]

As you mentioned, there's a cat. We also get this exchange. Who's gonna look after him? It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?

[A]

Cat as stand in for lonely, isolated slayer. Wonderful.

[B]

A higher power guiding us. Pretty sure that's not what I meant. Says Faith. So, welcome to theory corner. Mallory Rubin. Oh. Uh huh. Any theories cooking from what this cryptic dream exchange could mean here at the end of all things? And by the end of all things, I mean high school. No.

[A]

No. Cause some of what happens in that season kind of immediately bears fruit. Like there's the flashing of the dagger in Buffy's hand. Right? And then that is what Buffy uses to lead.

[B]

Little Miss Muffet counting down from seven three zero. Nope. No.

[A]

Absolutely no idea.

[B]

No idea. Excited?

[A]

No idea.

[B]

We're just gonna mark it. No. And come back to it.

[A]

I assume it. I mean, Faith is not.

[B]

Carlos knows what it is.

[A]

Faith is not dead. So there's not. Not until Faith dies. There's not another slayer coming.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So Faith is alive, another slayer is not coming. Unless she has had a, like, drowning moment. Yeah. Flatline moment. But I assume that is pointing to the arrival of another figure of consequence. Whether that is an individual person, a force of evil, I don't know. Could it be 730 sex scenes for Giles? That would be great. I would personally really love that.

[B]

Okay. Season four is just Giles fucking up a Storm in my head canon. Okay, great.

[A]

Certainly.

[B]

You know what's interesting about. So we are. I think it's like, yeah, something like 50 something episodes into this show. Right, right.

[A]

Cause season one's shorter.

[B]

Or maybe like 60, maybe low 60s, something like that. Yeah. And that's wild to think about because, like, there are many important shows in our life that never even get 50 episodes. And this is what I sort of mean about the like, marination you have with a 22 episode season of just sort of like you've spent 60 plus episodes with these characters so far and you have many more to go. And it's just sort of like a different.

[A]

And then potentially five seasons with Wesley and Angel too wild to think about, I guess the little Miss Muffet counting down from seventh or. I have no clue, I guess the higher power guiding us. It does strike me that that in the same stretch here in the Graduation Day double finale, the very like, end of the show, you know, Giles, as they're looking at the burning school and he's saying, you know, of graduation. There's a certain dramatic irony attached to all this synchronicity that borders on predestination, one might say. Like, that note is being pinged a

[B]

couple times here, but also it feels a little lamp shady of like, we get it. We did like a graduation day. And like, we blew up the high school as we're leaving. You know, all this sort of stuff. We don't have a, like, saddest death category that we're gonna get to today, but I would probably give it to Rip. The library.

[A]

Mmm.

[B]

Blew up.

[A]

We spent some good times there, man.

[B]

It's done.

[A]

We spent some great.

[B]

The library set is over.

[A]

So, jeez, where will Giles hang out?

[B]

Tune into season four to find out.

[A]

Is he gonna be at college with them? Like, is he just gonna hang out in the cafe or something? Cause they like their mochas.

[B]

Like real Wesley, sort of. What is this old man doing here?

[A]

At college is fine. In high school, it's just really fucking weird. But college is fine.

[B]

Yeah, we'll find out.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

Let's go down to our superlatives.

[C]

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[B]

All right. Mallory Rubin. Favorite line.

[A]

Okay, so my actual pick is one we've already talked about. It's from episode 21, graduation day part one. Buffy quitting the Council and saying, you know, you can't turn your back on the Council. They're in England. I don't think they can tell which way my back is facing. Is just fucking dope. And this is Mewny. I like to think of it as graduation. I just got one of those really satisfying, like full body chills that you kind of will remember forever when you hit a perfect moment in a story that you love. So that is my pick. I have some rapid fire, also rads. But I'll wait for you to make your pick and then hit some of my runners up.

[B]

This is a gift from me to you. And it goes like this. Sure. We can work out after school. You know, if you're not too busy having sex with my mother.

[A]

That's great. Yeah.

[B]

Cue dial. Running into a tree.

[A]

I was gonna say. I don't. Incredible line I like to think that my beloved Rupert Giles would be more composed than to just stumble face first and do a tree trunk. But I don't mind being reminded of his. I also think so.

[B]

We already mentioned it. But. Carlos, this is light play compared to what you had to go through last week. I also think I. I already mentioned it, but you want to get it back. Me dick is a great line as well. What are your rapid fires?

[A]

Okay. Bad Girls after Faith and Xander have hooked up. So Faith is asking Buffy about Xander. He's just a friend. So what are friends for? I mean, I'm sorry. It's just all the sweating, nightly side by side action. You never put in for a little after hours grunting. Great stuff. Willow to Buffy. Also in Bad Girls. Give me time and I may be the first wigger to do all my conjuring and pine fresh scent. I loved that. Consequences. Faith to Angel. Yeah. I Hope Evil takes MasterCard. It's great stuff. After he says he can't put Imagine the price for true evil. Doppelgang land. Anya and Willow. I swear I'm just trying to find my necklace. We'll try looking inside the sofa in Hell.

[B]

Incredible. I think Allison Hannigan's delivery of that is one of the all time.

[A]

So funny. She's really amazing in this season. Earshot. Angel warning Buffy to be careful with the demon's aspect. This was a more sincere one. A lot of things that seem strong and good and powerful, they can be painful. I liked that on the Angel Buffy front. In Bromlin, they're hunting down who's been buying brains to feed to the hellhounds. And she sees him getting the pints of blood and it's like, where did I think you got your blood? MC plasma. Great.

[B]

All right. Villain of the week.

[A]

Easiest pick of the pod run so far. The Homie Balthazar. From Bad Girls. I love the Homie Balthazar. Or Balfy, as I will be calling him and have been calling him in my home.

[B]

Tell me. Tell me about the Homie Balthy.

[A]

So there's a real kind of dune vibe to just the way he's Baron. Yeah. In the tub vibe to just his positioning. Also at the very end, after he's been fried and his skin is all like, you know, red and blister and crackling. I'm like, that's what I look after. Like the first day out in the sun in la in the summer. I just want. I'm grateful to him for. With Giles in his. In Balthy's dungeon lair. Wesley's Also there. Balthy. He's being basted.

[B]

Yeah. And he comes flailing. Yeah.

[A]

The front, the front. Moist in the front. And I just want to go on the record that that's not something people usually have to say when Rupert Giles is in the room.

[B]

An elegant solution. This is fantastic work from you. Top tier as always.

[A]

Oh, God. Great stuff. You know what I want? If it's for me to scrub those hard to reach areas, I'd like to request you kill me now. This is a great jail stretch with Balthy, and I'll remember it till I die.

[B]

I actually think the real answer is not the Homie Balthazar, but I think Carlos agrees with me. It's Vampire Willow. Like, it's got to be vampire.

[A]

Very powerful.

[B]

Incredibly good shit. Very vampire.

[A]

I honestly didn't know if Vampire Willow

[B]

was eligible because she's in two episodes,

[A]

the first half of the season as well. But I. I think it's.

[B]

You always call me out for breaking my own rules, and that's great. But she's like the main villain in that episode, kind of. But then Anya's also there and to Hoffman's also there. So things with me think about similarly best fit. I'm giving it to Vampire Willow and all the leather undeniable. Or Buffy's iconic red leather pants, black sleeveless shirt. She has a coat on the episode, but all the promo photos are, like, absolutely iconic. And when you see women dressed up as Buffy for, like, Halloween, this is like. This is the look is the red leather pants, the black sleeveless shirt. And Faith says, well, look at you all dressed up in big sister's clothes.

[A]

That's so good. They're really great.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That's fantastic. I. I think Will doppelganger Willow, to me is the pick. But I did just want to like

[B]

leather throughout this season, I gotta say, is just like having a moment. Boy.

[A]

Again, the 90s and eternal. Honestly, Eternally.

[B]

I did have one of my most, like, the most 1999 thing. Yeah. One of the options is Faith. Like, Faith wears a lot of leather this season and it's all great. But in one episode, which one? In Consequences, she's wearing vinyl pants. And those are just like, you know, the high shine off the vinyl.

[A]

So 99 to me, very shiny. Since this is a fashion category, though, I would just like to take a moment to reflect on the evolution of Giles's wardrobe, obviously, after he is no longer a part of the Council.

[B]

Oh, yeah. You sent me a savage eyes. You were floored.

[A]

Floored. Now I have the shirt, the T shirt that I had previously worn with all the pictures of Giles. So I knew that sweaters were coming because there's some sweater Giles action on that T shirt. However, nothing could have prepared me, and I mean nothing could have prepared me for the opening of the Zeppo. Where he is.

[B]

He's in a, like.

[A]

It just looks like he's walked right out of an Eddie Bauer catalog. And he's in like an oversized room. Outdoorsy fleece. That was a shock to me.

[B]

The knitwear gets like really roomy in season four. Yeah.

[A]

And it's mostly working. That one I had some notes on, however, in earshot. Powerful in a number of. Of respects. Everything that happens with Giles in that stretch. But Buffy's in bed. Joyce is in the door frame. And Giles is like behind Joyce, also in the door frame. And he has, you know, the one hand on the door frame and the other is pulling the glasses off and then pinching the nose. And he's got the like kind of brown blazer, black shirt, no tie. Walking sex. Just unbelievable.

[B]

Joyce thought so too.

[A]

All right. No question. Giles in a tuxaprio prom. Incredible. And then the. On the sweater front when he's in like the roll neck sweater. Is he and Wesley fence in Graduation Day Part one. That was working for me. I have to. I have to admit, it's great.

[B]

Giles known fashion plates. Great stuff.

[A]

I just like that he's trying some new things.

[B]

All right, this is our rapid fire Best of the Mayor. Cordelia and Oz ism. What do you want to give me for the mayor?

[A]

Okay. So I had two candidates for the mayor. One is spoken and one is written in bad girls. When he opens his to do list after the sor to the head test. Yeah. And he checks off become invincible. And then we see that he also has meeting with PTA call temp agency and haircut. Yeah. It's like real Steve Rogers. I'm updating my to do with stuff there. Great. But in Graduation Day Part one, he's eating the. The Gavrock. Or as Buffy would say, Gravlocks. Iconic. That killed me. I want to say Gravlocks. So good.

[B]

Little legs like that. He's crunching.

[A]

And he says, I can feel the changes begin. My organs are shifting, merging, making ready for the ascension. Plus, these babies are high in fiber. What's the fun in becoming an immortal demon if you're not regular? Am I right?

[B]

Great concerns. You know, fiber intake is very important.

[A]

Great stuff.

[B]

We love that. Here's my favorite mayorism of all time. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I happen to know that's factually true.

[A]

Not a fan. Not a fan.

[B]

It's really funny. Also, his love of the paper shredder.

[A]

The paper shredder is good.

[B]

It's very good.

[A]

I also liked when he said it. We don't knock during dark rituals. That's great. We don't knock during dark rituals.

[B]

Cordelia.

[A]

I had fewer contenders for Cordelia than usual. I will say absolutely this back half of the season is ready for her.

[B]

But I will say in earshot, when she can hear everyone's thoughts and Cordelia just like, thinks what she says, I don't see what this has to do with me. And then she says, I don't see what this has to do with me. And then she goes, whatever.

[A]

I wonder if I.

[B]

When I can go, whatever can I go like, that's good.

[A]

That was very funny.

[B]

And then suck a fuck, Xander. I'm just going to sneak a suck a fuck, Xander in here when he says, the comedy stylings of Ms. Cordelia Chase, everyone. Who incidentally won't be needing a higher education when she markets her own very successful line of hooker wear. Fuck you, Xander.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

Fuck you.

[A]

Not very nice.

[B]

All right. Any. Any other Cordelia isms in here?

[A]

I had the same winning pick because that was just such a great, like, note on her character. She's just really mean again in these episodes, you know, it's sad. I didn't earshot when they're all their interviews and she says to Mr. Beach, were you planning on killing a bunch of people tomorrow? Oh, it's for the yearbook. Yeah, like, there's just something so specific to Cordelia. I like the way she does that. I like that.

[B]

All right, our guy Oz.

[A]

Great, great, great Oz contenders here. We already mentioned the could be in the Zeppo that really killed me. And I liked also in Zeppo, when Xander's like, you need a thing, one thing nobody else has. What do I have? And Oz says, an exciting new obsession, which I feel makes you very special. Um, I. I think my pick is in do in Doppelgang Land, when Willow is confronting that her friends think she's worried people think she's boring. And she finds out that Oz has gotten back from a gig. And she's like, why didn't you tell me? And he's like, I didn't think that you would want me to. I didn't think you'd want to miss school. She says, you think I'M boring. And he says, I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text. Love that. Love that.

[B]

I think my favorite Oz moment is when he tosses the cauldron when Wesley is debating like whether or not we say Willow or we do this or what. And Oz is like, well, there you go. No other option. So that like rare moment of him like losing his shit. Right. Once again, an earshot. I am my thoughts if they exist in her. Buffy contains everything that is me and she becomes me. I cease to exist. Incredible shit.

[A]

We think therefore she is. Was so funny.

[B]

Yeah. Willow, what are you doing? Oz? Panicking right before they have sex. Great stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then this is a Cordelia, Xander, Oz, you know, three way, which is we'll get a container of Ebola virus and. Or it doesn't even have to be real. We could just get a box that says Ebola on it and chase him with the box. Xander says, I'm starting to lean towards the hummus offensive. Oz says, he'll never see it coming.

[A]

Incredible. Oz is the best. I like too with the prom and basketball. These kind like his reactions to these very traditional, typical high school experiences that haven't really been a part of his life in a way that he enjoyed. So when they're all, all like, oh my God, this like game winning three pointer buzzer beater at the end of the game and everybody's talking about it and Buffy wasn't there, so there's that awkward. Maybe things, stranger things. But when Xander's like, for a minute I thought you were going to make an expression. And Oz is like, I felt one coming on, I won't lie. And then on prom when Buffy asks how the dance has been, Oz says, strangely affecting. He's great.

[B]

Very sweet. He's great. He's the best.

[A]

Very sweet.

[B]

Best fight scene.

[A]

I mean I. I think it has to be. Well, I think I'm going with. With Buffy and Faith and Consequences. I think that that's very difficult to top. Um, you need me to toe the line because you're afraid you'll go over it. You know, because it tempts you. You know, it could be you. That's just all fantastic. I did really like as like a contender Faith in Willow. Their argument in Choices was very inside the mayor's office.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I like the way that Willow calls out Faith on her bullshit there.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's obviously the Faith and Buffy fight. The line should have been there be quite a ride. Which doesn't even fully make sense, but it kind of does at the same time, the jump off the roof onto the truck. I think it's fantastic. It's what you've been wanting all season. And I think they just really nailed it. And then you get a CG CGI snake, which is not as good, though. The whole student body comes and fights. And that is something, like, really sweet about that. And that looked.

[A]

That was more convincing visually than the snake. Than the snake. So I'll go with the verbal argument and the initial kind of skirmish at the docks in episode 15, Consequences. You're going with the fully realized fight at the end, and then they'll be bookends and paired.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Love it. Fantastic.

[B]

Horniest moment. We both have clips for this.

[A]

You go first, Carlos. What do you say?

[B]

Want to be bad?

[A]

This just can't get more disturbing. No more. You're really starting to freak me out.

[B]

That is both my true answer and a gift for Carlos of Vampire Willow Licking.

[A]

Very bad.

[B]

Willow's neck.

[A]

Very bad. Powerful. The dream. Honestly, that's the dream.

[B]

And, like, not all the. Not all of the doubling. There's some, like. There's a little bit, like. I think they handle the doubling really well where, like, you see her lick the neck and then you cut to, like, you know, our Willow's face. You don't have to do a lot of, like, weird split screen, like, trickery or whatever. It's done really well.

[A]

Very, very memorable.

[B]

The implication that, like, to your point about Faith wanting to have sex with herself, the. The implication that vampire Willow wants to herself is, like, fantastic.

[A]

Again, it's just so Loki core in a way that I love and appreciate.

[B]

Or is Loki Buffycore? You know what I mean?

[A]

I think that's. That's the. That is the case.

[B]

That is the case.

[A]

Yes, Exactly. Look, you know what I've picked here. Everybody knows what I've picked here. But let's just enjoy it together.

[B]

Anyway. Why are you.

[A]

You had sex with Giles. You had sex with Giles. It was the candy. We were teenagers on the hood of a police car. I'll be downstairs. You feel better? Twice. It's the most important moment in the history of television.

[B]

I mean, after band candy, were you worried that we would not, like, come back to this? That Buffy would ever find out? You were like. This will resonate through history. This seismic historical event will rain down for generations.

[A]

Much like both of the orgasms that Giles gave Joyce on the. Of that car rippled and coursed through her. I felt sure that the impact of that moment would ripple and course through the rest of the season. Easiest pick yet. That was. With apologies to the homie Balthazar. That was actually the easiest pick.

[B]

Some.

[A]

Some.

[B]

Some runners up everything in Bad Girls. Faith and Buffy. Dan. Buffy jump mounting. Angel. Like when he comes into the Bronze.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Very good stuff.

[A]

This is a pretty horny stretch of episodes.

[B]

I.

[A]

No complaints in the Zeppo. When the car obsessed woman enters Xander's life. And Cordelia and Xander have just been arguing inside of the donut shop and she's been belittling him and Xander, as Cordelia is watching, says of an answer to how does it handle? How does the car handle? Like a dream about warm, sticky things.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Oh, I'm up. I'm suddenly very up. I've just never been up with people before. That was kind of interesting to me, actually.

[B]

Just.

[A]

I guess it. I wasn't shocked that Xander and Cordelia had not had sex because obviously that would have been. We would have known if that had happened. But it is interesting that they didn't, actually.

[B]

That is interesting.

[A]

Let's see what else? Oh, Enemies. The Le Ben.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. A lot of eating.

[A]

Oh, my God. This was iconic.

[B]

And enemies.

[A]

This is just great. One of my favorite angel and Buffy scenes yet. I thought it was about food. Well, there was food. I just don't like to rub your nose in it. Suddenly wondering where that expression comes from. Holy shit. And just Angel's delivery. I've seen. It's been a long time since I've been to the movies. They've changed. Really killed me. That was great.

[B]

I also think in Enemies, when Angels compliments Joyce's hair.

[A]

Great stuff. Also when he's like, we never tried chains. And then, of course, in episode 20, when Joyce goes to visit him, the way that she looks. Chains on the wall. Very important. Oh, Oz and Willow having sex for the first time in Graduation Day Part one as Amy the rat watches.

[B]

And then they have sex again in Oz is his van.

[A]

They do. They do.

[B]

And they're late for graduation because they were having sex.

[A]

Sure are. Good for them.

[B]

Good for them. And then I think as. As we mentioned, the, like, crumpling of the metal container. Angel just like, slurping on Buffy in the finale. It's just very impactful. All right, Best use of Jonathan, are

[A]

you going with earshot or prom, or are they inextricable?

[B]

I'm going with earshot. Okay. Because this scene, that this episode was not written by Joss, but Joss wrote this scene. And I think about this speech all the time. It's a Buffy speech, but Like Jonathan's in the scene. So I'm counting it. My life happens to, on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it. Sometimes more than I can handle. And it's not just mine. Every single person down there is ignoring your pain because they're too busy with their own. The beautiful ones, the popular ones, the guys that pick on you.

[A]

Everyone.

[B]

If you could hear what they were feeling. The loneliness, the confusion. It looks quiet down there. It's not. It's deafening. You know, I could have taken that by now, but my life happens to you on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it is like an iconic Buffy line to me because it is like, this speech is. Is beautiful and thoughtful and all stuff like that. But my life happens to, on occasion, suck beyond the telling of it is such, like, a Buffy way to deliver that sentiment. I just. I really, like. I have questions about this, like, cobwebby clock tower that exists inside of the Sunnydale High School. Like, what is that. Yeah. Doing there? Why is it so derelict? I don't know. Why are the windows all boarded up? But, um. But, you know, Jonathan being like.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[B]

Being, like, hot and blonde and, you know, and athletic is, like a real burden. And she's like, guess what?

[A]

My life is also full of pain and mystery. Yeah, that's my pick as well. And I. In part, because I have the prom scene as already mentioned as my most emotional moment. So I didn't want to pick the exact same thing for two of the categories. But we don't get that moment without this. You know, you don't get Jonathan saying, most of the people here have been saved by you or helped by you at one time or another without what happens in the. In the clock tower between them.

[B]

So. Great one. And I also love, in that clock tower sequence, like, he's so shiny. Like, greasy shiny. And like, this, like, his, like, striped shirt, it's just all, like, Danny Strong is so good. And, like, just the whole Jonathan thing really works for me. All of it. We're not done with Jonathan. It's great. Okay. Most 1999 thing.

[A]

I already spoiled my pick, which is just the. All of the. The whole Wesley Cordelia thing is so. Of its time to me. So. So I'll throw out, since I already spoiled. But that was my pick. The number of times that taping things on a VCR is invoked or comes

[B]

into play here when Cordelia's like, zoom in.

[A]

He's like, I can't. And they're like, pause. And he's like, guys, it's Just an oh, yeah, okay.

[B]

You can do that.

[A]

And in the Zeppo Bob after finding out he's been dead for eight months. And then there's the Walker, Texas Stranger. You've been taping him, right? And Jack's like every ep. And in Doppelgang land, one of the things that sets Willow, really sets Willow off is the moment when Xander and Buffy come up to her and ask if she didn't remember to tape Biography last Friday. And she's like, yeah, God, yes, fuck, I did remember to tape Biography, Annie.

[B]

Biography was very important.

[A]

And then the tape and all the tape stuff in prom is just. Yeah. So VCRs and cassettes. What about you?

[B]

Other than the vinyl pants? I don't mean to, like, bring it down or two here, but I do think, like, the delay in release date is like a very 1999 thing. Just like a very of specifically that year. All right. Giles.

[A]

Not Buffy's crimped hair. You're not going with that?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

We didn't talk really about the micro bangs enough last pod.

[B]

So what had happened was, if I recall, recall correctly, Sarah Michelle Gellar had done Cruel Intentions where she dyed her hair brown. And then they were trying to re. Bleachify her as fast as possible for Buffy. And they, like, overcooked her hair. So like the micro bangs, but also just like the shag. Like, there's just like a lot of. Like, there's these bright blonde money pie the front of her hair at the beginning of the season. And that just like, killed her hair. And so the micro bangs. And then the. Like we saw in the clip from Enemies, she's got this, like, real shag cut at that point because her hair was just, like, dead. And they were doing the best they could because they over blonded her. So tough, tough moment for Buffy's hair. Sarah Michelle Gellar's like, I learned some lessons about what you can and cannot do. Moving from blonde to brunette and back again, Giles's most dad moment.

[A]

You go first. I have too many contenders. I can't go first.

[B]

I think this is really easy for.

[A]

I have like 15 in this back half.

[B]

Giles seeing Buffy and Angel dance.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great one. He's just the best, isn't he? Yeah. I just love him and would like to have sex with him. I'm going to run you through some contenders. Some are fun, some are very heartfelt.

[B]

Some are.

[A]

Some are more like dad humor. The Zeppo. Did you eat all the jelly? Did you want a jelly? I always Have a jelly. I'm always the one that says let's have a jelly in the mix. Great stuff. Bad girls. Wesley telling Giles he has an emotional problem. And Giles, like real full Star wars energy here. My attachment to the Slayer is not a problem. Consequences. This is another heartfelt one. Buffy's talking about Faith. I'm not going to give up on her. And Giles says so sincerely that I think she stands a chance. God, Enemies. Oh, I love this. And enemies. The Book of Ascension stuff with demon. Couple different moments where Giles is like the state of demon dom. It's what's going on here when he says demons after money. Whatever happened to the still beating heart of a virgin? No one has any standards anymore. And then later he's like, again, see? No standards. Any self respecting demon should be living in a pit of filth or a nice crypt. Some. Some. The no. Standard stuff is real dad core to me. Ear shot. A new fabric softener can cause irritation. This wonderful. And then we already. Graduation day, part two. We already talked about the coffee tea thing, but tea is soothing. I wish to be tense. And then handing Buffy the diploma. I'd say you'd earned. I'd say you earned it. So. Dadcore. My pick is from prom as well, though. Before the dance when Giles. That Angel's not taking Buffy to the dance and that he's leaving town and says, buffy, I'm sorry. I don't really know what to say. I understand that this sort of thing requires ice cream of some kind. Like, I just love that and everything in that whole stretch where Buffy is just like. I am not gonna think I'm stepping on one of my later categories. But like, I'm not gonna let my friends be deprived of this night. Even though I'm not gonna have it anymore. And the fact that Giles is somebody who she's like able to open up to here and then he just wants to find a way to comfort her even though she. Though there's like. There is no comfort. Was just lovely. He's the best. They're the best.

[B]

Giles. Most daddy moment. And you have a clip for this?

[A]

I do. And I'll be watching it on lube for the rest of my life.

[B]

Carlos, how did it go?

[A]

Faith did quite well on the obstacle field. Still a little sloppy, though.

[B]

You feel up to taking Buffy out or shall I?

[A]

Now, the most important thing is that he has a lollipop in his hand. And in this entire scene, he is twirling the lollipop or sucking on the lollipop. And I Found it to be mesmerizing. Life altering.

[B]

DNA remapping.

[A]

Life altering. And its impact.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

He is so sexy. Holding that lollipop and licking that lollipop and.

[B]

And putting Wesley in his place.

[A]

Holding that lollipop and putting Wesley in his place. It is important and powerful and memorable. And I'm thankful for it.

[B]

You've already written a really convincing dissertation on Giles and a tuck let you have that. And I will give it to Giles. Stabbing the mayor with the rapier.

[A]

That's my, that's my runner up.

[B]

Yeah, we. I mean, again, I'm perturbed by how often this is a violent pick for me. But the rapier moment's really good.

[A]

The instantaneous reach and stab.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like cuz the mayor is attack. That's one spunky little girl you've raised.

[B]

I'm going to eat her.

[A]

Attacking Buffy and Giles is just like, I'm going to kill you now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also, he does it left handed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just really hot.

[B]

Yeah. Great. All right. When Willow cries, we cry. I feel like there's only really one answer for this. What is it? Oh, no. Is it her crying over Xander sleeping with Faith and consequences? She goes into the bathroom, commits one

[A]

of the great sins, I think, which is sitting on a public toilet.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, no.

[A]

For me, it's a no. But I did find it very touching.

[B]

What if you put the seat cover down on?

[A]

I think even if you're just there for a cry, you gotta take your pants off and put a seat cover down. I'm sorry. You have to pants off.

[B]

Crying jags in the bathroom. Is this a coping mechanism at work or is school?

[A]

It's entirely possible. Pants. No comment.

[B]

No comment.

[A]

That is one of my two contenders. I, I, this is not actually a. When Willow, like, cries, she's not literally crying. But I think the emotion is so forceful here in Bad Girls when she. It's When Buffy is like, it's more complicated than that. And Willow says it's that exact thing that's ticking me off. It's this whole Slayer's only attitude. Since when wouldn't I understand? You talk to me about everything. It's like all of a sudden I'm not cool enough for you just because I can't kill things with my bare hands. I was just like, fucking get it.

[B]

And I believe she's wearing overalls when she says it.

[A]

The overall display this season from Willow is astonishing. There's a real like, Mario coded aspect to a lot of it because there's a Lot of, like, red shirts.

[B]

Red with the overalls.

[A]

Yeah. Under the blue jeans. But it's working for her.

[B]

Best guest star.

[A]

So I texted you last night to confirm the eligibility, which we have been lax with, but in theory is more than one episode, but fewer than four for the stretch of episodes in question.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So I am picking Anya, even though I now know that she will be around for much longer.

[B]

Anya's a great.

[A]

Four episodes across season three and three episodes in this stretch of story that we're covering today. She's in Doppelgang land, the prom and Graduation Day parlor.

[B]

Emma Caulfield, baby. She's the best. So when I was trying to convince a friend of mine in college to watch Buffy, and I was trying to explain to her, and it was, I think, season five. In season five. I think season four, season five. And it's explaining the Anya character because she's just, like, a source of, like, a lot of humor going forward in the show. And my friend who was, like, really into Star Trek, she's like, oh, she's the Data. And I was like, yeah, she is the Data. She's just the sort of, like, I'm a demon stuck in this, like, I don't understand your human ways, what is going on here sort of stuff.

[A]

The, like, the post wish, I just thought this was really smart. On the heels of the wish to have to deploy her is like, okay, now I'm stuck. After my whole long life that I've lived, I'm stuck as, like, a teenager with these other fucking teenagers. What a nightmare. I love that. But to the humor point, I got such a kick out of the Xander the promposal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, men are evil. Will you go with me? And, like, this is so funny. And Xander's like, I wonder why not? Like, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with your sales pitch.

[B]

That killed me.

[A]

And then coming when she goes back and is, like, trying to convince him to leave town with her and laments that he won't and kind of laments the state of romance and the way that romance makes you feel. It's horrible. No wonder I used to get so much work. But when he's like, my friends lives are on the line. And she gets mad and then says, fine, I hope you die. And he walks away. And she says, aren't we gonna kiss? That's, like, incredible, Anya. Really good. Really, really good.

[B]

I'm giving it to in the Zeppo. So Michael Cudlitz, who plays one of the zombies in the zeppelin Zeppo is my friend Paul's uncle, Uncle Mike. And so he's in Ban of Brothers and very famously, the Walking Dead. But before he showed up, before he was like a series regular in the Walking Dead, he was like. It was more like this, where Michael Cudlis would just, like, crop up occasionally, and we would just go like, ah, it's Uncle Mike. Like, that's what we would do. Like, the Leo pointing me. Before the Leo pointing me, we were just sort of like, ah, it's Uncle Mike. So incredible. Uncle Mike's in this stretch of episodes. So I got to give it to Michael Cudlitz.

[A]

Great stuff.

[B]

Best high school is hell metaphor. This is the end of this category. I guess we could do college as hell. That's certainly on the offing in season four. But this graduation's the end of the era of an era on this show. It's a high school show, and it won't be that. Like, I have a real issue with high school shows when they go beyond that. This is why, like, season three, for many reasons, is the peak for me. Because this is a high school show. Yeah. We have a really organic setting in place for everyone to constantly interact with each other. It's like, it's not the same when you. Well, the Bronze. It's like, it's not the same when you go to college. Like, even if you went to college with all of your high school friends, you would not have the same classes. The campus is more sprawling, like, all this sort of stuff like that. And so the setting that lets everyone naturally and constantly interact is gone. Angel's gone, Cordelia's gone. And those are, in many ways, like, integral to me to, like, what the show is. So that's not really. I mean, graduation day is the best high school as hell metaphor. But, like, I just wanted to, like, memorialize this setting, this premise of the show.

[A]

I have a real. I'm very intrigued to see how it feels in college. In the college years. I was a real saved by the bell the college years kid. I just loved it. It made me feel so excited to grow up and, like, get a haircut, have a new haircut. A common room in a dorm that, like, you then realize nobody ever going to have a common room like that for. It's for the whole floor. It's not for just a few of you, like, but I love. I lived in a.

[B]

In a quad in the dorm, so we did have a common room. That was just for freshman year.

[A]

Yeah, immediately.

[B]

Yeah, we had. We were in a quad.

[A]

Damn. California it wasn't like every room had

[B]

that, but, like, most rooms were doubles, but we were in a quad. So it was like two. Two girls in each, like, tiny closet bedroom. And then, I mean, it wasn't like the common room and, say, a bedroom the college years.

[A]

But, like, we had, like, a living roommate cabinets. That's very nice.

[B]

Like, we had a. Like, all of our desks. Like, basically the beds fit in the, like, closet bedroom. And then all of our desks were out here, but we had, like, bean bags. And, like, everyone from the floor would, like, come in and hang out in our room.

[A]

Because we got it in Syracuse. We got it by junior year. But freshman year, we. And this felt like the height of luxury. Syracuse had something called the split double, which was instead of just one open room where you are seeing each other and do everything too much, there was a divider that went three quarters of the way up the middle of the room. And it was, depending on the dorm, either the closets or your door desks. So you had, like, some privacy, even though it was just one room.

[B]

Well, I will say at. At. UC Davis, where I. Where I matriculated, you didn't live in the dorms after freshman year. So, like, the dorm experience was like a freshman year experience. And then you had to live off campus. Unless you were an ra, which I was one year. I was an ra.

[A]

So I love knowing this about you.

[B]

Did you not know I was an ra?

[A]

It sounds new to me, but it's also possible I just forgot because, I mean, my brain is melted.

[B]

That doesn't seem true. I'm the one who forgets everything. I'm the one where you're like, you already did the notes for this episode. I was like, really?

[A]

That was a good moment this week.

[B]

That was really good. Carl's like, you already sent me your clips. I was like, I did.

[A]

Oh, great. Great stuff. I'm like, to me, this is total coin flip between prom and graduation day. I guess it has to be graduation day. How could it not be? And, you know, weirdly, like, the mayor's speech, I thought really captured something.

[B]

It's gonna do the whole thing.

[A]

That was so funny. Journeys end. And what is a journey? It's just. Is it just the distance travel? Time spent? No, it's what happens on the way. Like, you know, that was really lovely. But in prom, I. Man. First of all, the comedy of. What's that? A demon? And Buffy saying a prom dress that Will was thinking of getting. Hilarious. Can't you ever get your head out of the Hellmouth. I'd be delighted to, but Buffy telling Angel I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing. But I'm certainly not going to let some subhuman ruin it for the rest of them. I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing. Like, hit me so hard. That was really, really devastating.

[B]

Buffy. Uh, and then she's doing her slay age. Not really. Because, like, she leaves Tucker alive with, like, one hellhound still in the room. Like, very curious. But she just sort of, like, shakes her prom dress out in his garment bag and is like. And then shows up looking like a million bucks. As always, Buffy Vampire Slayer. All right. Cringiest low budget moment.

[A]

This has to be the mayor.

[B]

The mayor's head splitting in two. Or the snake. But I don't know how closely you watched it, and I kind of wish I had clipped it, but in earshot. Yeah, there's a fight with the lunch lady, which is one of the worst on double moments of the entire life because it's just like a grown ass man in the lunch lady's dress getting hit. And it's, like, really funny. So I. I also want to put that out there.

[A]

Fantastic inclusion and a worthy inclusion. I just like, bro, looks like a Ms. Paint project here. And as we always saying, bring back the puppets. We. Oh, bring back the puppets.

[B]

Definitely should have been a puppet.

[A]

When he says, well, gosh, it's like we're all thinking it, too. Well, gosh.

[B]

And we had gone so far. Like, we had really come a long way since, like, season one and season two in season three. And then they're just sort of like, gingerbread happens. And then this. This is worse than gingerbread. You'll see him, like, snaking through the hall. It's pretty tough.

[A]

This is a worse backslide than Cordelia, for sure.

[B]

I agree. I really agree. All right. Angel's broodiest I've been to hell moment. I have a clip for this.

[A]

O, You still my girl? Always. With

[B]

not a lot of love and a deep amount of disrespect to J.K. rowling. This is my.

[A]

Like, this is your always.

[B]

Are you still my girl? Always. This is it. This is it for me.

[A]

Oh, man, that's a great one. His face looks so sad there. Oh, my God.

[B]

Are you still my girl? Boy, right? Like, I'm breaking up with you. Or like, we. Oh, no. That's when Buffy's like, we need some distance. It's. It's actually like a little Choppy, I would say at the end of the season, Buffy's like all of a sudden, like, I need some distance after enemies. And then he's like, hey, actually, maybe we should have some distance. She's like, what do you mean? So it's a little up and down, but Are you still my girl? Always. That's really, really good. Really broody. And then also, I'm sorry. Dancing to wild horses at prom. As I mentioned a few times, my pals of the Buffering podcast put on a Buffy prom and they play wild horses, like no fewer than five times.

[A]

I should hope so.

[B]

The Buffering prom, that they do great stuff.

[A]

I. Yeah, just. I mean, it's really everything that is a part of the multi episode. Like I have to leave town to get my own spin off. Um, but also, I'll, you know, say that you deserve more than this freak show protracted breakup over a handful of episodes. I. Shortly after Joyce's visit in prom, when he says, you deserve more. You deserve something outside of demons and darkness. I mean, you should be with someone who could take you into the light. I was like, that made me sad. You have no idea how fast it goes, Buffy. I thought that was very impactful.

[B]

When.

[A]

When the. I want my life to be with you. I. I don't. That is just. We're fully in two socks. Nymeria. I'm gonna make you go away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Territory.

[B]

But get outta here.

[A]

Telling Buffy that he's gonna leave town without saying goodbye in Graduation Day Part two was just all time stuff, though.

[B]

It's like the mist and then he's gone.

[A]

I'm just gonna go. You understand. It's like. Not really.

[B]

No. Actually, do you feel like that's the writers being like. We couldn't really write this scene, so let's just do Standing in the Mist. It'll be a cool. Really impactful.

[A]

It is. It's powerful. All right.

[B]

Funniest moment. You have a clip.

[A]

Buffy. When were you gonna tell me? All right. Busted. I didn't think you'd miss them. You were accepted to Northwestern University.

[B]

You're such an asshole.

[A]

I can help it. I'm sorry. I couldn't help it. Oh, God. Okay. Thank you for that.

[B]

You mentioned Anya's prom proposal, which is very, very important. I'm going to also give it this. For a thousand years, I wielded the powers of the Wish. I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared and worshiped. Across the mortal globe. And now I'm stuck at Sunnydale High mortal child. And I'm flunking math. Emma Caulfield's delivery of all this stuff is so good. Incredible.

[A]

I have two Xander runners up in the zeppelin. This is more of an editing pick, but the cut from Xander saying, we'll handle it together, you know, I'm here for you. Just tell me what to do. And then we cut to him ordering

[B]

them down on us. Killed me.

[A]

That was so, so, so good. And I really liked an enemies. When Xander says he's bribed Willy for the demon's location and then says, is the Council reimbursed for that kind of stuff. Giles is like, did you get a receipt? Just love that. It's kind of like exchange that they could have had at literally any. Just very humorous.

[B]

I have to, because of my professional background, shout out. Faith's not gonna be on the COVID of Sanity Fair.

[A]

Obviously, I thought of you.

[B]

Thank you. Willow waving in her Vampire Willow outfit. And Oz's face, like, when he understands what's going on here. But her little. Like this. I believe it's in the credits going forward. So it's a key little moment. Yeah. Well, did you try looking inside the sofa in hell?

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Very important. He's got to do the entire speech. And then this. I just love it when they let David Boretas be funny, which is very rarely.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Buffy, be careful with a gift. A lot of things that, as you said, a lot of things that seem strong and good and powerful, they can be painful. Like, say, immortality. Exactly. I'm dying to get rid of it. Funny. I'm a funny guy. It's really good.

[A]

He made me laugh, too, with the intrigue choices. You never take me anywhere new. What about that fire demon nest in that cave at the beach? I thought that was a nice change of face. That was very funny.

[B]

Wesley's. Wesley's intro. I won't read the exchange because I can't do it justice. But, like, Giles is just sort of like. Giles and Buffy are just sort of, like, sitting there, you know? Like, is he evil? Not in the strictest sense, but just sort of like. Wesley's just, like, yammering on about Gwendolyn Post and all this sort of stuff like that. And Giles is just, like, already done. Day one. He's done already. Or, like, when he orders Buffy to do something and she's like, when Giles does it, I usually get a cookie.

[A]

Like, it's just very good. Oh, man. Great stuff.

[B]

Most emotional moment I have A clip.

[A]

Class Protector. Class Protector.

[B]

Guys, take a moment to deal with this. We survived.

[A]

It was a hell of a battle.

[B]

Not the battle. High school. We're taking a moment, and we're done. Always undercut with a. With a joke, right? But as I've mentioned a million times, I was the same age. So, like, this is when I graduated high school. And so it's like 1999. It's a real moment. I. In time. Even if I did not see this episode until July, but also everyone fighting and some of them dying. Larry and Harmony and like, all the kids, like, you know, getting to defend themselves and not just being, like, you know, vampire fodder as they've been for vampire demon fodder, as they've been for three seasons.

[A]

But I don't understand what's happening. But, like, I have some. Some agency role to play. This. I got very emotional to close it. Closing on the poster. Sunnydale High 99. The future is out. I was like, God, yeah, great.

[B]

Do you want to talk more about class protector moment?

[A]

I think we've hit it. It's just incredibly, incredibly touching. Buffy Summers, class Protector, and the look of gratitude on her face. Really, really wonderful. Really, really wonderful. And her response to that Giles moment. I had no idea that children of Mass could be so gracious. She says, every now and then, people can surprise you. Like when so much of your experience is about people disappointing you, you know, that the thing they reveal about themselves is like a letdown or a scandal or an affront for the surprise to be an empowering and, like, collective embrace is just lovely, perfect little moment.

[B]

I also love how it starts. We're not good friends. Most of us never found the time to get to know you, but that doesn't mean we haven't noticed you, you know, And I think for people who feel like they went through high school, like, unnoticed and stuff like that, this is just like a fantasy fulfillment moment of, like, everyone's like, we doing all these things in the shadows. What an incredible season of television.

[A]

It's great. I'm excited for season four, College years.

[B]

When are you gonna start, do you think?

[A]

Got a few things going on this weekend. Next week are I would describe as demon laden hellscape. So. But not this weekend, but next weekend. So the.

[B]

The.

[A]

What date is that? Let's see. I'm on my computer. I don't know where the calendar is. The 27th. February, Friday, February 27th. That weekend, the weekend of February into

[B]

March, we're gonna get into season four. Anything you weren't you're like, what are you most looking forward to?

[A]

Giles.

[B]

Giles.

[A]

Sort of embarrassing, but it's true. Does he have sex with anybody in season four?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God. Is season four when he plays the guitar?

[B]

I think that's five.

[A]

Or no, it's.

[B]

I think maybe end of season. Yeah, Season four. Actually, it is season four.

[A]

I can't wait. And I know there's a very big episode coming in season four, so I'm excited about that. I know some big things happen in season four, so I'm excited about that. Some new characters.

[B]

Guess who's back?

[A]

Spike.

[B]

Spike.

[A]

Hell yeah. Let's fucking go.

[B]

Welcome to the opening credits. James Marsters. All right, we'll be back with season four about the Vampire Slayer. Thank you to Carlos Chiraboga for sitting in this very small room.

[A]

Legend.

[B]

We'll be back with Talk the Thrones in our sort of usual space. But if all goes according to plan, we will be in our new studios. I don't want to jinx it. Maybe I just did.

[A]

Tempting. Tempting the fucking fates here.

[B]

We are allegedly going to be in our new studio space next week when we're back with our deep dive, etc. Etc. So we'll see then. Thanks to Arjuna Ram Kapal for his work. Always. He's just juggling schedules constantly. Thank you for to adjourn me at dinner on great work on some Deep Dive clips this week on the Social. Go check it out on the Instagram reel. Mallory running down all of Dunk's hits when we got to see the footage for that. It's a really incredible story.

[A]

It's a very chill conversation in the comments on that post for everyone.

[B]

Everyone's vibing with us. Nobody understands irony. It's fine. Thank you to Donald for helping.

[A]

Helping out today.

[B]

Exactly. And thank you to Mallory Rubin.

[A]

Thank you, my darling. Joanna Robinson, pod protector.

[B]

We'll see you soon. Bye.