‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 4 Rewatch (Part 1)

Summary

‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ Season 4 Rewatch (Part 1)

Podcast: House of R (The Ringer)
Episode Date: April 3, 2026
Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Mallory Rubin

Episode Overview

Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin reconvene in Sunnydale for a comprehensive rewatch of the first half of Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 4 (Episodes 1–12). Their conversation covers the show’s transition from high school to college life, substantial cast changes, the shift in tone and visual style, new and departing characters, and a lively breakdown of beloved tropes, best moments, and iconic episodes—most notably, the genre-defining “Hush.” The episode is rooted in their trademark blend of deep analysis, warm nostalgia, and irrepressible humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Format & Season Structure

• Episodes Covered: S4 Episodes 1 (“The Freshman”) through 12 (“A New Man”)
• Dividing the Season: Joanna chose to end part one with the Giles-centric “A New Man” to preserve focus before the “Big Bad” arc deepens in the back half.

  “How did you decide to divide the season, Joanna? I don’t know. It was a vibe and I felt it.” —Joanna, [04:10]

2. Buffy's College Years: Vibe Shift

• Visual & Tonal Changes:
  • Brighter, glossier color palette and campus settings contrast with the shadowy, “shabby” feel of earlier Sunnydale High days.

  “The look is more polished and much, much brighter … but for me, I’m like, I miss. I miss the funky.” —Joanna, [15:00]

• College as Transition:
  • Both hosts relate to Buffy’s precarious freshman footing and recount their own dining hall and dorm memories, reflecting real-life growing pains.

  “The show is really finding itself in its post-high school identity ... What is your show when you no longer have that framework?” —Joanna, [10:57]

3. Cast Departures, Arrivals, & Writing Issues

• Departure of Angel & Cordelia:
  • Cordelia’s loss felt “sharp,” with Anya and Spike filling her “energy” and “wit” in the ensemble.
  • Angel’s exit creates space for Buffy’s exploration, but Joanna and Mallory agree: his successors pale by comparison.

  “Cordelia … she provided an energy in the group dynamic that felt utterly specific and distinct.” —Mallory, [27:51]

• The Riley & Initiative Problem:
  • Riley Finn is branded a “flop” by the hosts; his cornfed blandness and flaccid chemistry with Buffy is contrasted with the magnetic chaos of Spike and Anya.

  “Riley, I just think, is a complete flop as a character.” —Joanna, [32:53] “Normcore, you know?” —Mallory, [28:13]

• Oz’s Sudden Exit:
  • Seth Green’s abrupt departure for movie roles results in what the hosts call a “problematic writing off,” making Oz’s breakup with Willow feel rushed and out of character.

  “I firmly do not think Oz would ever cheat on Willow. I just. I don’t believe it.” —Joanna, [35:51]

• Angel Crossover:
  • This season’s substantial crossovers are noted (e.g., “Pangs”), but watching only fragmented Angel episodes is “not the way” for a first-timer, says Mallory.
• Tracy Forbes (writer):
  • Only season-long, credited for “Beer Bad” and “Something Blue,” the former widely reviled, the latter beloved.

4. Shift in Series Ethos

• Loss of “High School as Hell” Motif:
  • Without the monster-of-the-week framed by high school metaphors, Season 4 experiments—often unevenly—with “college as hell” analogies (bad roommates, identity loss, etc.)
  • The Initiative is a weaker “big bad,” lacking the Mayor’s dynamism.

  “There’s also no true season long big bad ... It almost feels like they didn’t know ... who are the antagonists this season, et cetera.” —Joanna, [11:49] “We’re coming off the Mayor. I know, an all-timer.” —Mallory, [12:42]

• Buffy’s Growing Pains:
  • Her struggle to find footing (vs. Willow, who thrives immediately), the scattered friend group, and adulting challenges ring true for viewers.

5. Standout Episodes & Moments

"Hush" (Ep. 10)

• Form & Innovation:
  • Only 17 minutes of dialogue; lauded for almost complete silence, horror-inflected monsters (“The Gentlemen”), and an overhead projector scene considered “the funniest in the whole show.”

  “I don’t think … I have laughed harder than I did during the overhead projector scene. I was in tears.” —Mallory, [46:31]

• Critical Acclaim:
  • Only Buffy episode to receive an Emmy nomination for writing.
  • Cemented as one of TVs all-time best episodes.

  “This is the first one … I’m about to hit play on something that people consider an all time, not just episode of Buffy, but episode of television.” —Mallory, [43:33]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “It’s the stay and gloat that gets us every time.” —Ethan Rayne (via Joanna/Mal), [00:18]/[56:36]
• “I always think, what would Buffy … I want to cry. What would Buffy do? You’re my hero.” —Xander, [52:50]
• “Riley, I just think, is a complete flop as a character. On the other hand … Spike and Anya, 10 out of 10.” —Joanna, [32:53]
• “Spike enters the scene with a plot device that I could never be mad at, which is this inhibitor chip.” —Joanna, [34:13]
• “Walking sex. Oozing sex. … This guy fucks.” —Mallory (on Giles), [102:51]
• “A bear. A bear! You made a bear! Undo it!” —Spike, [110:24]
• “[Hush] did [live up to the hype]. I thought this was so excellent … a microcosm of everything Buffy does.” —Mallory, [44:23]
• “Can I be blind, too?” —Giles (on Buffy and Spike’s engagement in “Something Blue”), [125:59]
• "Undo it!" —Spike (Pangs), [110:26]
• “If I don't have a heartbeat, why am I covered in all these veins?” —Harmony, [71:43]

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Notable Moments & Segments (with Timestamps)

Life at UC Sunnydale, College Vibes:

• Dining hall war stories, dorm and meal plans (funny/relatable banter) [05:48–11:01]
• Roommate-from-Hell (Living Conditions/Kathy) as college metaphor [117:10]
• “You had a choice” motif—Buffy, choices, and agency [56:36]

Season Changes, Cast, and Plot Themes:

• Departures (Angel/Cordelia), new additions (Anya, Spike, Tara, Riley) [27:19–35:56]
• “Beer Bad” and “Something Blue” writer deep dive (Tracy Forbes) [25:28]

‘Hush’ Deep Dive:

• Writing/production challenge and accolades [41:56–44:23]
• Overhead projector mime scene (laughter highlight) [46:31–46:49]
• The Gentlemen, Doug Jones’ physical performance [57:27]
• Buffy/Riley secret reveals [48:58–49:20]

Award Superlatives & Categories:

• Best line (Xander’s “What would Buffy do?”) [52:50–53:13]
• Favorite villain (The Gentlemen; Sunday; Fear Itself’s Gaknar) [57:17–61:18]
• Fit/Worst Fit of the Season (“Kevin Costner in Field of Dreams Jean Bulge hall of fame” for Spike’s jeans; “heinous shit” for various late-90s fashion) [62:03, 67:31]
• Best Harmony & Anya moments (rundown and clips) [69:46–75:46]
• Funniest moments (“Can I be blind, too?”; “A bear! Undo it!” miming the stake, Giles and the TV) [125:05–129:07]
• Spike’s Hottest/Funniest/Most Spike Moments [110:17–115:55]
• Most 1999/2000 moments (Cher’s “Believe”; iMac computers; 90s haircuts; overhead projectors) [92:18–95:28]
• Giles’s “dad” and “daddy” moments (chainsaw; Olivia; Halloween candy) [97:50–103:29]
• Emotional moment: Oz and Willow’s breakup (“Don’t you love me?”) [106:58–109:06]
• “College is hell” metaphor highlights [117:08–124:38]

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Flow and Tone

Mallory & Joanna’s camaraderie is steeped in self-deprecating humor, [07:00–11:00], deep fandom, and casual but sharp cultural references—they shift fluidly from heartfelt to hilarious, reveling in the show’s campy 1999-2000 moments as much as its genuine emotional beats. Their tone is affectionate yet critical, especially when discussing problematic plot turns, outdated writing, or character misfires like Riley Finn.

Recurring in-jokes: Giles as the ultimate “walking sex,” soft spot for Anya’s bluntness/horniness, Spike’s meme-ability, insider deep dives into their own college past, and sly Cordelia/Angel shout-outs.

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Timestamps for Segment Navigation

| Segment | Start Time | End Time | |---------|------------|----------| | Episode setup & season split | 04:02 | 05:47 | | College/dining hall discussion | 05:48 | 11:27 | | Season changes, cast departures/arrivals | 21:37 | 35:56 | | Angel crossover & production trivia | 21:36 | 25:28 | | “Beer Bad” / “Something Blue” writer segment | 25:28 | 27:39 | | Riley/Initiative debate | 28:13 | 35:56 | | “Hush” deep dive | 41:56 | 49:21 | | Superlatives & category awards | 52:24 | 132:29 | | Emotional moments & closing | 131:06 | 134:32 |

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Best for Listeners Who…

• Crave both reverential deep-dive and playful Buffy banter
• Want insider context on show production, casting, and writing choices
• Appreciate episode-by-episode breakdowns with a heavy dose of nostalgia
• Like their podcast palettes as broad and bright as post-1999 UC Sunnydale

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Next Up: Part 2 (Episodes 13–22) plus a Memento (Nolan) Deep Dive

"There's some, like, bangers in the back half and then also some of the worst shit that Buffy has to offer." —Joanna, [134:02]

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For more Buffy, geek culture, and effusive Giles thirst, follow House of R on all the platforms.

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

Foreign. Hello.

[Joanna Robinson]

Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That bedecked in Giles is the beautiful Mallory Rubin. And we're back in Sunnydale for college.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's Buffy season four.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the stay and gloat that gets us every time.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're here to talk to you about the first part, the first half of season four of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Did they cancel the reboot plans? Yes. Does that mean we're going to stop our rewatch plans? No. Mallory's a completionist. So we're going to do it all.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we're going to get into it right after this.

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[Joanna Robinson]

All right, quick programming reminders.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So what we have coming up here on the feed is we're going to be engaging with one of my favorite Star wars characters, my guy Mal.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Getting not only his own show, Season two already greenlit.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know, it's exciting.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's all happening for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shadowlord time. Let's go.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we'll be engaging with Mal next week.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thrilled.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll also do the second half of this Buffy watch next week.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then we do have. If I can't remember to forget you, we have Memento plans. We're doing another Nolan dive into Memento. So that is all coming up on the feed. Valerie, how can folks keep track of all of that? What do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

I would just recommend following the pod.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, let's do that. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify. Incredible stuff. You can also, of course, watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. On the Ringiverse YouTube channel. While you're at it, follow us on social media because we've got brand spanking new handles.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hell yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

At House of Our Pod on Instagram and TikTok. And of course, continue to follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. While you're at it, you've put your phone in your hand to follow at House of Our Pod and you're like, should I send them an email? Is the inbox open? Guess what it is. It's always open. Hobbits and dragonsmail.com. send us your Shadow Lord thought, your

[Joanna Robinson]

horny, horny Mal thoughts.

[Mallory Rubin]

All of them. All of them. Send us your Buffy season 4 part 2 thoughts. Send us your ongoing Christopher Nolan rewatch thoughts. Send us thoughts on anything that might be coming later in the Is it still spring? Spring, summer. What season is it? I don't even know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Spring and summer when you heard that Maul shadowlord would not only be the sensuous vocal stylings of one Mr. Sam Witward, as per usual as Maul, but Wagner, Moira, the like Caster nominated, Absolute Goat. And then Richard Ayoade, like our favorite droid, is here. So, like, thrills, honored, Delighted.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't mind saying that I'm really enjoying the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're having a blast. We'll get into it next week. Okay, here are the plans.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ongoing Buffy season four. We're doing episode one through episode 12. How did you decide to divide the season, Joanna? I don't know. It was a vibe and I felt it.

[Mallory Rubin]

So we're doing always somewhere between 10 and 12.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, there we go. We decided to divide it before sort of like the. The Big Bad really gets going in the second half. It seemed like sort of a natural divide for me. So we're starting with the freshman season four, episode one, up through episode 12, new man, which is a Giles episode. And I want to make sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why? Is it?

[Joanna Robinson]

Because, like, in the back half, a lot of other stuff is happening and I wanted to make sure that we had some room for to focus on the GILES Episode, episode 12.

[Mallory Rubin]

Appreciate it.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're welcome. That's a gift for me to you. Thank you. You're welcome.

[Mallory Rubin]

I feel seen, I feel known, I feel understood. And as usual, I found plenty to celebrate on the child's front.

[Joanna Robinson]

Plenty. So we'll do our general discussion. We're gonna talk a little bit more deeply about the episode. Hush. One of the all time great Buffy episodes is in this. This chunk. So we're gonna be talking about that. And Then we'll get into our categories and superlatives. I can't wait.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm thrilled. And we both remembered to bring our mugs.

[Joanna Robinson]

We did. On my very season four. Appropriate mug.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. Why are you not drinking blood from a straw?

[Joanna Robinson]

Tune in for part two. We'll see what I can do. Do you think I can make the. If I crumble Weetabix in there, which is canonically something that Spike enjoys doing. That's right. Crumbling the Weetabix into the blood. Do you think I can then get it up a straw? Like, with the Weetabixie chunks?

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe if you use like a boba straw. You know, like a wider straw.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Great plan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, stay tuned. Let's give it a go. Okay, let's go now to our opening snapshot. All right, so Buffy season four debuts October 5, 1999, two days after my birthday.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wild.

[Joanna Robinson]

And runs through May 23, 2000. And as I've told you before, this is the only season of Buffy Vampire Slayer I did not watch Live for the same reason I never watched Sopranos. I was a freshman in college, and in our dorm, we didn't watch tv. We played Mario Party in the common room sometimes, or Mario Kart or Smash Brothers, but we were not watching TV together.

[Mallory Rubin]

Were you writing your name on your hard boiled eggs?

[Joanna Robinson]

I never put a hard boiled egg in a mini fridge, but.

[Mallory Rubin]

And rolling it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or milk. Can you imagine having milk in your dorm mini fridge?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a move.

[Joanna Robinson]

Only if you're a coffee drinker, I think. Are you allowed to have, like, creamer of some kind in your mini fridge in your dorm room?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm trying to remember what I kept in my mini fridge, because I did have one, but I feel like all the food I had in my room was like microwavable soup.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was Easy Mac and like Red Bull or like, you know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I had like, a lot of chips and crackers and cookies and fruit snacks and soup that I could heat in 30 seconds. Or, like, cup of noodle stuff. Candidly, my diet has not changed much in the ensuing decades, but I don't know that I ever kept a true perishable.

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Mallory Rubin]

In my dorm.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. I think we kept like, yeah, drinks and then Easy Mac or whatever. Like things that will not expire. And then mostly we were in. We were in the dining commons, like, freshman year. Yeah, they don't do. They do, like, a little bit of. Of dining commons.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some dining. Parker has some notes for Buffy on how to maximize your. Your dining hall use yeah, the. The broken handle, the frame. Great stuff. I have a lot of fond memories of the Syracuse dining halls. Chicken and biscuits was a real favorite of mine. Delicious.

[Joanna Robinson]

We did not have anything like that. Did you have late night? So we had this thing called late night, which is like. So there were like the normal hours of the DC and then they would close and then from like, I don't know, ten to midnight or something like that, it was just like, I think the sad salad bar was still there. And then it was like pizza and hot cookies. And that was like, you know, and then like froyo.

[Mallory Rubin]

I see.

[Joanna Robinson]

So you could like go. And just like, if you, if you felt like kind of munchy, you could go get pizza and hot cookie. The hot cookies at late night.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

At the UC Davis DC they were like so popular. You had to get them at like the exact right time. It was really, really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was how the donuts. And my freshman and sophomore year dorms at Syracuse were like, get them early, target them early. But I always like the omelet bar. You get some like eggs made, put some cheese on a. Wonderful stuff. I didn't mean to start by just talking about dining halls for 10 minutes, but it is part of the fun of watching a college show. How many dining halls did you have on campus? Many, I assume. Or no.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we had. There were like four residential housing sort of pods.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Three were on campus and one was slightly off campus. And there was a dining common for three of those. So there were two on campus and one slightly off campus.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting, because one of my notes on the Sunnydale experience here is that they seem to be running into each other all the time. The campus feels much smaller than I think it should.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very small. Yeah, it's like a. Well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cause then.

[Joanna Robinson]

So our meal plan you could use in the dining commons, but then there were also like a couple other places on campus, you know, where you could use your credits also to get other things on campus. Absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

We had many dining halls like that were kind of associated with certain dorms. You sort of learned over time.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what I mean.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like what the better food was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ours was the best one. So I didn't. We didn't stress.

[Mallory Rubin]

You didn't need to wander. Yeah, you didn't need to wander. I have a lot of memories of the Sadler and Livingston dining hall at Syracuse for freshman and sophomore year. Boy. And then seeing the, seeing the coffee cups that kind of like, you know, signature yellowy brown color cup with the little silhouette of a coffee cup with a pipe of steam coming out of it that people are walking around with. I was like, man, this ported me back in such a big way to going to get. And the Underground Cafe. Because one of my favorite coffee shop at Syracuse was People's Place underneath the basement of the church. Go down there for like 99 cent mocha Java.

[Joanna Robinson]

That place is like. That place is the, I think the one location that looks most like college to me. In this season. We're gonna talk about sort of like the look of this season and how it's a big departure from the first three seasons and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, one last thing I want to say on Dining Commons, please. Did you have. So we had a policy where you were not allowed to take food out of the dining commons, right? Because you would like swipe your card and that was like one meal. So you like swipe in, eat all you can when you're in there, but you're not allowed to take anything out.

[Mallory Rubin]

They didn't want you to do the Parker. Fill your pockets and put stuff in Ziplocs. It's an advanced technique.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you did, did do like. Well, I didn't but like that often, but I knew a guy once who put an entire bunch of bananas in the hood of his hoodie. They just sort of like slipped it into the fabric and stuff like that. And yeah, people just got really good at like sandwiches and all sorts of stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Needs musk.

[Joanna Robinson]

Needs mus. You do what you can. All right, so I didn't watch this live. I sure I caught up before. Cause then ever after that, like season five, season six, season seven, you were watching in real time. I was watching in real time in like off campus housing. And I made all of my roommates get into Buffy and it was like a whole thing. So I'm sure I caught up over the summer between season four and season four.

[Mallory Rubin]

But not on the Sopranos.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not on the Sopranos. But that might be why this is. Spoiler alert. My least favorite season of Buffy, perhaps because I was not watching it live and having that sort of like week to week experience. But also there's just like a lot of changes which we'll talk about and a lot of like, I just think it's like in this similar and. And thematically it works. There's some significant changes, cast, departures. We'll talk about all of that. But like, you're finding yourself freshman year of college. The show is really finding itself in its post high school identity because, like high school as Hell is the. Is the logline of the first three seasons, then? So what is your show when you no longer have that framework? We're still in school, but it's not the same. Giles isn't in the library. Xander's not even on campus. You know, like, what are you gonna do, Joyce? Oh, man, we hardly knew you this season, so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ms. Joyce.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot going on. There's also no true season long big bad. Again, we'll talk about sort of the big bad of the season in the back half of this. Yes, but, like, I think that's a huge mistake. I think it was like a. It's a tried and true formula and they will go back to it for the last three seasons, but this is one season where they sort of experimented. It almost feels like they didn't know. They were, like, figuring out in real time exactly what they wanted to do with who are the antagonists this season, et cetera. What do you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, maybe we'll get into that more in the second half. But I was curious to ask you about that, like, how much of the design for Riley and Walsh and the Initiative and what Riley is going to. Cause, you know, you've obviously seen this all a million times. I have seen all of season four. I haven't seen beyond it yet, but I've watched all of season four. We're gonna do these two. Two part podcasts and Mallory texted me

[Joanna Robinson]

and she was like, joanna, is Riley a regular from here on out?

[Mallory Rubin]

I've got some notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I was like, no, he's not.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've got some notes. But I think there are some interesting aspects to what unfolds with that group. The presence of the Initiative and then some of the figures inside of it. But, you know, we're coming off the mayor.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know an all timer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just incredible stuff. So, yeah, that's a notable downturn. I think I am inclined toward a we have now gone to college and the coming of age story has changed for sure. But, like, in a way that feels very true to something you as a viewer or reader or whatever, you know, the method of the story you're consuming is like something that you can latch onto as a part of your own, like, evolution when you're a young person and that point of life where you feel like you're an adult for the first time, but you're like, are you. Is such an interesting time of life. So a lot of the we're in college now stuff actually really worked for me, though. I did find myself missing a, like, core germ of DNA, like the soul and heartbeat of what high school represented in those more formative younger years. But college is formative in a different way. So I think that Buffy struggling to adapt and Willow having her footing right away was so interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think the first two episodes really nail it. Freshmen in living conditions, which is just sort of like, do you even fucking belong here? To Buffy in freshman, then living conditions, the like, oh, my God, what if your roommate was a little demon? That's a great high school as hell translated to college sort of moment. I think those first two really sort of get that going and then we're just sort of a little bit scattershot for the rest of the year is what I think. So, yeah, I agree with you. The entire. I was talking about the look. The look is more like polished and much, much brighter than the first three seasons in Sunnydale High were. Just like, visually, the color palette that's part of that is to do with like, we're moving into the 2000s. Like, the styles are changing. The cool colors are like these bright blues and teals and pinks and oranges and stuff like that. But I also think there was a conscious effort to make because the angel spinoff happens and the angel spinoff, which you haven't seen, but is very much like an L A Noire detective angel sort of thing. So really to make a contrast, I feel like they were like the gritty dark angel and the like sunny UC Sunnydale, California, like lip gloss and blonde hair of Buffy and that. And the show will be that kind of more candy colored brightness for the rest of its run. And to me, the first three seasons are locked in my head as like, this is the palette of the show. And so it all looks like a little wrong to me, but it looks like a higher budget, more expensive in a way that I think a lot of people who bump on the sort of 90s corniness of the first three seasons, I think sometimes they like the later seasons because they just look a bit more polished and expensive. But for me, I'm like, I miss. I miss the funky. It's like watching Doctor who. And I'm like, Doctor who should look kind of shabby and weird and when you give them too much money, it looks wrong to me. So I don't know, what did you think of the visuals?

[Mallory Rubin]

I. So I've watched so much sports over the course of. I've actually never. I think I've been to USC once for screening and UCLA maybe never I've been to Westwood and like, near ucla, but I don't know that I had ever, like, walked across campus. But the second I saw it, I was like, I've watched enough sports. They're filming this at ucla. I can recognize the kind of architecture. This is really interesting and fun. I like a college quad as a setting. I think that, like, again, the coffee shops and things like that were interesting. The moments where they go back to the Bronze are. I was like, wait, is this supposed to be a place that looks like the Bronze or the Bronze? And of course, they say they're at the Bronze. So I was, you know, we're going

[Joanna Robinson]

down, like, the ongoing mystery of what. What is the.

[Mallory Rubin]

What is the Bronze? It really was an interesting. It explained actually some of the alcohol being served at the Bronze to understand that this was a place that college students would. Would be frequenting. So, yeah, I don't know. I think like, I. I like the. We're out on the quad, we're walking around campus. This is what our lecture hall looks like the world. I'm going to show you kind of like one. Lecture hall, et cetera.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do like the lecture hall.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I. As is often the case with a college set show, the thing that struck me the most about the new visual scape was just the astonishing size of all of the dorm rooms. Absolutely ludicrous. At least with Riley, there's the COVID of, like, he's in a fr. Like he's in a house, right. But the kind of lamp shading with Kathy and Buffy, like, oh, it's nicer

[Joanna Robinson]

than I thought it would be.

[Mallory Rubin]

When we're first seeing the dorm room, there was amusing. Oz's room is an all timer.

[Joanna Robinson]

All timer.

[Mallory Rubin]

How? How?

[Joanna Robinson]

I have a lot of questions about Oz this season. So many of them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Remarkable stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

What I love. I mean, so one of my favorite things that happens this is. This was in my. One of my runners up in the categories. But I'm fine to talk about it here. One of my favorite bits in. In the Freshman was the. The poster conversation that the vampires had, like Klimt or Monet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

But like, beyond that, right, Like Buffy's room, there's the like, chocolate poster on the door. And then Riley has one that's just like, balls. Great stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really great banal dorm deck going on there.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that. And I do like, you know, we get this great moment where we go in. It's almost like we're at the Citadel and in Westeros where we see this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, the Library, like how huge it is. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Kind of a cruel side shot from Willow at Giles High School collection. Rude.

[Joanna Robinson]

Giles takes a lot of shit this time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he's really going through it. I'm here to comfort him if he needs it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do like Olivia's keeping him busy, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

Boy, is she big fan. I do like how often we are at Giles apartment or in that courtyard. On the one hand, it is inherently less logical as the high school library as a meetup, but also it makes more sense somehow than trying to conduct your secret business in a public space. And the way that they would shift because he's like, I'm on my fun employment into, you know, gentleman of leisure into, oh boy. Like, I feel really neglected and out of sorts and like, will anybody remember me and what is my place in all of this journey? Which I found quite compelling to watch. The idea that even amid the ebbs and flows of like, has Buffy remembered to tell Giles about Riley and the Initiative and things like that. They're very sad. They're like, that's home base for us now. Like, wherever Giles is, is home base. I love that part of it. I thought that Xander basement, you know, mom's basement pad was just kind of like instantly iconic to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, the Spike being tied up in the armchair and he's like, I don't want to be like three feet away from Xander and Anya, like pumping away on that. Just that the. The laundry, you know, the boxers, like hanging to dry and the clothesline behind you coming in.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she's like, your mom said to add the fabric softener when the timer goes on.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say I think it's a real missed opportunity not to have the Spike and Giles show continue for more than it does in this season. Them being roommates is like unbelievable top tier comedy for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I mixed on season four. It's my least favorite season of the four I've watched so far. Because even though the episode quality in season one is very uneven, it's just like it's your first exposure to Buffy. It's an all time thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I reserve the right to hate one of the later seasons more than this.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's possible we'll see. No, I still was very fond of it and enjoyed it and I found it. It was interesting. We'll talk about this when we go through our categories, but this was like, on the one hand, it was some of the easiest category picking because some of the fields weren't as crowded. But on the other Hand. Sometimes I had a harder time like identifying most emotional moment. There weren't the clear like three or four. Oh my God. How will I pick between these?

[Joanna Robinson]

That was the hardest part.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Like was a sudden.

[Joanna Robinson]

Especially in the left field. I think this first half too.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, for sure. But I laughed a lot and I was quite taken by some of the evolutions that people were experiencing, not only individually, but inside of the dynamics. And the Giles Spike pairing and the Spike Xander pairings in particular were extremely good. Riveting to me. Like, I just loved both of them.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know if you know this about incredible Spike. James Marshers has chemistry with everyone.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

He just does. With Anya, with Willow, with everyone.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anything.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's all really good. Okay, so let's talk about the changes. So the angel spinoff happens. We get some crossover. You haven't watched any of the angel episodes despite there being. Oh, did you?

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I didn't. And I.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're not gonna talk about them. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know how to navigate this because I. I think we had. I had felt like the right thing to do was just to wait till after the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because I don't like to really ever. Even if I've seen and read something a thousand times, just like go to one place. I kind of have. Like, it's just. I gotta do it all.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But to consume it for the first time by just like cherry picking an episode here or there, because it's the crossover, I think wouldn't feel true to how I like to consume a thing for the first time. So I wanna watch it all. And I think it feels prohibitive to watch the entire like whatever entire parallel season there is with whatever stretch we're covering at a given time. That said, because angel appears and pangs here and you know, is referenced a couple times outside of that. And then. Spoiler for anyone who's watching this but hasn't seen the back half of the season yet and is consuming it in real time with the pods. He's coming back. I did feel especially that second time around, like I'm missing a little. I felt okay about it, but I'm like I'm missing a little bit of something that would make this a more complete crossover event. Which is of course what crossover events are designed to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is this season, I would say, is the. Is the most heavy crossover that we get between the seasons. You know, between the seasons. It lessens after this and then especially after season five, that Buffy moves to a different network entirely. So then they're on two different networks for the remaining two seasons of Buffy. So then that's like. They can't really cross over. There's one angel episode that I considered sort of asking you to check out, which is the one right after Pangs. Right. So angel shows up in Pangs Inside of season four, and Buffy doesn't see him. And then it is clear that she has gone to see him in the episode after that is, I will tell you, one of the best episodes of television ever. Certainly, I think the best angel episode

[Mallory Rubin]

that makes me not want to watch it. Out of order.

[Joanna Robinson]

I understand. But, like, I. I know how you are, and I felt like if I pushed you to watch that, you would then just, like, make yourself watch all of angel, and I don't want you to do that.

[Mallory Rubin]

How many episodes into the beginning of angel is that? Is it like.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like, um. Let's see if, you know, is it

[Mallory Rubin]

single digits or is it like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I think it's like, the ninth episode or something like that. Probably eighth or ninth. Because Pangs is the eighth episode of Buffy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something to think about. But we get the phone call and the season premiere, and you don't see who's on the other end of the line. But if you watch angel, you see angel make that call. It's angel on the other side. You see him make that call. In the angel series premiere in episode three, Harsh light of day ends with, like, let's send Oz to la. So Oz is in an episode in the dark, you know, where he takes the gem of a Mara to angel and stuff like that. So there's that crossover.

[Mallory Rubin]

So is angel then wearing that ring for the rest of time?

[Joanna Robinson]

Tune in to angel to find out, and then you're like. That would be a great device if Angel's just like a daywalker now. And then the crossover with Pegs, and then the episode I Will Remember you, which, again, is, like, one of the best episodes ever. Okay, so another. So we're into the casting in a second. I've been doing this thing as we go through, talking about, like, the new, important creative voices that are added to the show. There isn't really. And I would say, until we get to, like, Drew Goddard, there isn't really one for the rest of the show. Like, the people that we've talked about, Marty Knoxon, Janice Benson, Doug Petrie, like, all these people. That's. That's the core crew. As we go forward, I did want to highlight Tracy Forbes, who is only on this season. Okay. She Writes three episodes, two of which are considered some of the worst episodes of Buffy ever. And then one of them is, like, one of the greatest episodes this season. So she wrote Beer Bad, which, if you go on IMDb is one of the greatest, lowest ranked episode of Buffy. Beer Bad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Astonishing episode of television.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thing I found out while doing research for this that I didn't know is that apparently that episode was made in conjunction with this program with the Clinton White House, where they were trying to get, like, anti drug and anti drinking messaging into television. So Warner Brothers, like, commissioned this episode in order to, like, be in compliance with that or whatever. And then because the cause of the distress was supernatural and not actually the beer, they, like, didn't get the advertising credit that they were, like, angling for from the White House. So then just this terrible episode exists for no reason, honestly.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, you know, it did make me want a Frosty. A frosty pint of Black Frost. I gotta be honest.

[Joanna Robinson]

Foamy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Foamy. When I was say, when Giles and Sandy are looking around, they go in Buffy's dorm room and she's like, drawing a hole and then like lipstick on the wall and then spinning in the chair. Made me chuckle. And I liked across the season in different forms. I liked the skewering of various versions and shapes and manifestations of, like, a college snob, you know, somebody who thinks they have it all figured out. It's like the Beer Bros. This is a real goodwill, yes, Absolutely mean to Xander. Being a townie, et cetera. Not, not a high quality.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think this is where I learned the term townie was like, Xander's experience this season is what helped me understand what that was interesting.

[Mallory Rubin]

Xander. All of Xander's many jobs. It's, I, I, it's, I thought this was like, actually a very compelling Xander season.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anya. Yeah, actually, I think this is maybe, like, really good. The best Xander season, actually. I think I was surprised how much Xander showed up in my categories, actually. And also Beer Bad is in my categories nonetheless.

[Mallory Rubin]

Amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can't wait.

[Mallory Rubin]

Something Blue, just a genuinely great episode

[Joanna Robinson]

of television that I love. A fantastic episode of television.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then this is in the back half of where the Wild Things Are, which you did text me after we watched that episode and we'll talk about it when we get to the back half. But Tracy Forbes here and gone very quickly in the Buffy, but left her mark with Beer Bad, one of the worst episodes of Buffy ever. And Something Blue, genuinely one of my favorite episodes of Buffy. All right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Something Blue is great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's talk about some cast changes. I'm gonna call this the problematic. Well, first of all, how much are you missing Cordelia? How much are you missing angel as you go into this season?

[Mallory Rubin]

So at least with angel, we gotta fix. I do miss Cordelia quite a bit. I think there's an energy in the group dynamic that she provided that felt utterly specific and distinct. And it's just, you know, it was a great performance and a great character and some of the kind of, like, sharpest writing her barbs and rejoinders. So I felt myself missing Cordelia quite a bit. Even though I think I agreed with your characterization of the backslide in season three not being the most rewarding part of watching her character arc. I'm curious to see what she's up to in Angel. Angel I miss. Of course, I think it was helpful to be able to have a couple moments. I'm glad that Buffy has a opportunity to explore other things romantically and other people romantically. And I think the way that Buffy talked about that across the season, you know, like, I like my evil, how I like my men evil. Great line. One of my runners up for Best Line. That was really funny. And just sort of like the way that Riley at first seems, like, not spoiler at first for Buffy, not always for me, not interesting because he's so normal. Normal. He's so normcore, you know, I like seeing Buffy, like, think about what she wants and why and assess what draws her and why and, like, who is appealing to her and why. And conceptually moving angel out so that there's room for that for Buffy and also for him to have his own story, which I've, of course, yet to consume, I think feels right for this part of the story. I will say the people who filled that space can't hold Angel's bloody fangs.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, Riley sucks. He's, like, absolutely terrible.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the Parker stuff was, I thought, like, effective. Oh, I think Parker's great. Because, yeah, it's very, like, you're.

[Joanna Robinson]

You heard it here first. I love Parker. No, but I love that storyline. Like, it's a great storyline. It's real.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, I'm exploring my sexuality in college and, oh, no, you know, what has happened?

[Joanna Robinson]

Harsh Light of Day, I think, is, like, a really good episode. But Riley, who's, like, now, I know in terms of age gaps, him being her TA is nothing compared to angel, who is hundreds of years older than her. But I'm still like, you're her ta, My guy, actively her ta. This sucks.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we're coming off Wesley and Cordelia. So it didn't seem quite as hard. But yeah, it also felt like I was kind of like, why is. Why.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why is Riley.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why is Riley a ta?

[Joanna Robinson]

Right? Because he's an undergrad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well.

[Mallory Rubin]

And just like. But what. What even story purpose that it makes. It feels like maybe another bit of evidence for what you're hypothesizing earlier of, like, how much did this story change over time?

[Joanna Robinson]

I'll dig into that a bit more before we do part two, but yeah, and if.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because him and Walsh working closely together. Together as part of this larger initiative, like set up and cover.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But Riley's, like, intellectual involvement and, like, academic pursuits really vanish after a few episodes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really does not read as intelligent at all, unfortunately. My guy, I like Mark Lucas a lot, who plays Riley as a person. I'm a fan. Here's what. Here's what Joss said about sort of swapping in Riley.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Quote, the loss of angel actually made things easier because it met new places to go. This is a lot of what you're saying. What had become tough was bringing new changes out of that relationship. By season four, we were into mission statements. What we said was, this is the first year of college. The first year of college is about being able to do whatever the hell you want and completely lose yourself. Trying on new identities and changing, Exploring sexuality, exploring freedom to screw your boyfriend all day long. Which Buffy did do for a while. So, you know, I do love that. I like Parker a lot as Angel. Methadone. Yes. And then there are some parallels which I'll talk about sort of like when we get to my categories that I think are really poignant and effective. Riley, I just think is a complete flop as a character. On the other hand, in order to fill the Cordelia gap, we have, I would say the combination of Anya, who Iconic, incredible Emma Caulfield, like, so smart of them to pick up Emma Caulfield from season three and bring her into season four. She's not a series regular until season five. But, like, she's basically. That's just a contract thing. She's basically a series regular this season. She's just not in the opening credits. She will be. But like Anya and her bluntness. It's a different kind of bluntness, but she just says the thing which Cordelia would often do.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Famously. And then Spike and his cruelty is like also sort of a Cordelia fill in. So I think those two things combined are trying to provide. And I think Spike and Anya, who, again, are just like integral to the back half of this entire show are two of the greatest. Like, Riley Flop. Yeah. Spike and Anya. 10 out of 10.

[Mallory Rubin]

No notes. Genuinely no notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really Fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Probably my. I mean, I do again, so on brand. Think this is a really fun Giles stretch. But I think Spike and Anya were my favorite part of these episodes. I will say, like, I think this is maybe my favorite Sarah Michelle Gellar performance yet. And it's just Sarah gets like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Her comedy ops are really good this season. Yeah, amazing.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, she's obviously been great since day one, but she is just incredible to watch. And this is an interesting time for Buffy on her journey of discovery. So I was quite taken with Buffy, but I'm just so uninvested in Buffy and Riley that that became, like, something I was less enthused about. Yeah, I really agree on Parker. And I like to just specifically with how that storyline went. But more generally, the idea that Buffy is coming out of the stretch with angel of like, okay, what if the guy that I am in love with and drawn to is a vampire? Is. That's tough, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Not a great.

[Mallory Rubin]

You hate when it happens. But also, like, what if this guy's just a piece of shit?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, you don't have to be a vampire or a demon to be an asshole or to be a problem. And I think it's, like, important actually for Buffy to confront that.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a really fun thing that Buffy. That the show Buffy will just, like, occasionally dip into, where it's just sort of like. And what if it's not supernatural? What if it's just a terrible person or a horrible tragedy or whatever the

[Mallory Rubin]

case may be, which feels really crucial.

[Joanna Robinson]

Spike enters the scene with a plot device that I could never be mad at, which is this inhibitor chip.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Neutered against humans, but he can hurt demons.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Comedy incorporation into the Scooby gang. I like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me personally and to television in general.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think I found every second of it mesmerizing. And I would like every Star Wars Order 66 inhibitor chip plot to be recut to feature Spike.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great. I love that. And then another problem I have this season. I'm not a huge Tara fan, but we can talk about that a little bit more in the back house.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, well, I'm interested to hear why. And then Oz, tell me everything.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm calling this the problematic writing off of Seth Green. Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Fill me in.

[Joanna Robinson]

So Seth Green had movie contracts we talked about a little bit in season three. Like Oz would disappear a little bit in season three. His film career was kicking up even a bit more and he needed time off and contract wise and conversation wise, they just like couldn't make it work. And so they just like. It was supposed to be a season. I mean, honestly, I did not want a season long love triangle arc with Veruca, a character I do not enjoy. Like, oh my God, horrible. But maybe if they didn't speedrun it, it would have been better. I don't know. But like, they write off Oz with this sort of infidelity plot and then his like, I can't control the wolf. I need to be alone. I need to figure my stuff out where the line is absolutely devastating, you know, goodbye. And then Oz is gone. And he will be back for an episode in the back half of the season. Then he's gone. Oh no. From the show. That's curtain star Oz.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's actually horrible.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that, you know, and that's not true of most of the other characters who like come and go on this show. So it just feels really like. And this is not the first or last time you'll hear about Joss Whedon pettiness, but this just feels like a really like the way they wrote him off just feels like a little like they're pissed that he wanted more than their show. And so they're like, okay, we'll kind of character assassinate you on the way out. Because I don't mind an infidelity plot in general. I think it was done really well with like Xander and Willow previously and stuff like that. I firmly do not think Oz would ever cheat on Willow. I just. I don't believe it. And so I hate the way that this ends. It really bothers me. Cause I love that character and I love that relationship. But I don't mind, you know, as we, as we've talked about on shows before, like when we were talking about Stranger Things, we're like every relationship that you form as a child or a high schooler or whatever, like non last your life. So the fact that like Oz and Willow break up, I'm not upset about like high school sweethearts breaking up in college. Like what a classic story sort of thing. But the way it's done and how rushed it feels and then he's just unceremoniously gone just really bums me out because I love Oz.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love Oz too. I was thrown by his rapid exit. And then, you know, I was so happy when he came back and then really thrown when he spoiler for the second pod that we'll do in a few days was gone again. But it's interesting because I think that the. In terms of the infidelity part, I have room for the wolf and the man and where is the line and like the fact that he is doing something in that sense state that he would not do when he is in control of his faculties and his desires and can make like a conscious decision about what he wants. And I think there's something interesting too there about what is stronger, like the base instinct or the, the, the deliberate choice you make to say, this is a person I love and want to like, want to be with and want to nurture. Yeah. I thought the one moment that tipped it for me was actually and like on the one hand this is human and people are. I have a lot of like room for that too. But when he was like, yeah, I remember what it feels like. I'm like, would Oz do that? I don't know. I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Terrible. I also, this is just a larger note. I don't think Oz would be as into frat. Oz and Willows, I don't think are going to frat parties. I just don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

The party scene just like they're going

[Joanna Robinson]

to parties, they're going to cool parties. I don't think they're going to frat parties. And like when I was like, when I was a kid watching like college based stuff, I thought the only parties were frat parties. That's just kids. That's just not the case. And you can go to college and not go to any frat parties and still go to a lot of parties and have fun. So when like Oz is like dialed into the frat scene, I was like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, I don't agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was fascinated to see what. How the kind of relationship to partying on campus unfolded and like a little moment where, oh, they think that Willow is who's been, you know, struggling to process what has happened with Oz. It's like, oh, cut loose on the dance floor. And then they realize she's drunk, she's got like a bottle. You know, stuff like that felt very. You're in your late teens, you're moving into your early 20s. Alcohol is a part of your life. Like, what role does it play in your life? I was fascinated by how often they're like, we're going to this frat tonight. I think that this being a group of people where there's like a, there's varying. I loved when. But when Willow ran. Ran into Percy, and there's that. Great. And, like, that's a setting where something like that can happen. And I loved the, like, oh, hey, oh, Percy Rosenberg. And then the crushing, like, way that she feels when she overhears him saying. Saying, like, I don't go for nerds. And then she's like, I. I know we have more important things to talk about, but when the Scoobies are all together, she's like, why is he still thinking of me like, the way I was in high school? And, like, feeling pulled back into, needing to kind of distance herself from something. That part of the journey of the show is, like, embracing who you are, right? So all of the. All of the different settings that they dabble in, I think, are, like, useful to some extent to, like, put them in a different context and then see who they're reacting to or exposed to. But I was just like, man, they

[Joanna Robinson]

got a lot of properties. A lot of properties. I will say one of my favorite episodes, my favorite Halloween episode, is Fear itself. That is in this stretch. And I think the way in which that really good. Engages with everyone's insecurities that you're talking about, I think that is really well executed. So I love that episode, and I don't mind that that's in a frat house, but in general, it's just a lot of fratting up, and, kids, you don't have to do it. Last but not least, before we get into Hush, Pedro Pascal is very briefly here as Eddie, who loves of Human Bondage, among other things. The safety blanket is wearing the most iconic 1999, 2000 jacket that sort of, like, black collar. I don't know what the name of it is, but it's just, like, every guy I knew had that jacket.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah. Of course, they've never gone away, really. So I knew. I had seen pictures of Pedro and Buffy, and I knew he was in it at some point, but I didn't know it was. So maybe I had seen that it was season four, but I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, here he is right at the beginning of the season. And then shortly thereafter, he was gone. Yeah, Eddie tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love the way that they talk about each other, though, because, like, you know, Pedro is often asked about this experience, and he talks about, like, how nice Sarah was to him and how they, like, how she really showed him a lot of things on the set of this. And then Sarah is also now, you know, she's doing her, like, promo for, like, Ready or Not to or whatever. And she's like. She's like. They're like Pedro Pascal and Buffy. Oh, my gosh. And she's like, yeah. She's like, actually, he was barely in the show, but, like, we really connected, and I really, really liked him. And they're still kind of. I just love that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Two charisma bombs, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. All right, let's talk about Hush. Written and directed by Joss Whedon. This is. So there's three episodes, as we've mentioned before, there's three episodes that everyone considers the great episodes of Buffy. They're in 4, 5, and 6. And it's not my ranking, but it is the sort of, like, universally agreed upon ranking. And I would say. I think this usually comes at number one. Number two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. After once more of a feeling.

[Joanna Robinson]

No. And is that three?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's three. Okay, got it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think. I think that's how the ranking usually goes. This is only 17 minutes, famously a quiet episode. Only 17 minutes of dialogue. Joss Whedon has said sort of one of, you know, we talk about that sort of, like, the Buffy language, the Whedon sort of patter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Whedon has said that he was sort of a little tired of that patter being sort of named as the main thing Buffy had going for it. So he's like, guess what? I can do it without that. I can do a story without all of that jabber, jabber back and forth. So only 17 minutes of dialogue in this episode, ironically, the only episode of the entire Buffy series to be nominated for an Emmy Award for writing.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's also got a cinematography nomination. You knew this was a hyped up episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, I did. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did it fulfill your expectations? How did you feel about it?

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought this was dynamite. Just so great. I texted you right after I watched it, and you were, like, relieved because you were maybe a touch not worried or doubting that I would think it was great, but, like, oh, has it been overhyped? Does it have such a hold on the public consciousness? Because, like, you know, and I still haven't gotten to the body or once I was feeling. But, like, I know that those are episodes that are waiting for me, and I know some of the others as well that, you know, I'm looking forward

[Joanna Robinson]

to and anticipating Double Meat Palace.

[Mallory Rubin]

Double Meat palace, which is interesting because I didn't know that about, like, innocence or passion or some of the previous ones that have just gripped me so fully. So I think this is. This is really the first one at that top Top, top tier of not quality and excellence. Because I think it is that. But, like, I also think those other episodes are that. But the first one where I was like, I'm about to hit play on something that people consider an all time, not just episode of Buffy, but episode of television and like a formative viewing experience in their lives. Right. So that was thrilling and exciting. And there's always the like. Is something overhyped. Can it possibly measure up to that level of hype no matter how good it is? It did. I thought this was so excellent in, like. And just a microcosm of everything Buffy does. Not just well, but like an extraordinary capacity.

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Mallory Rubin]

I hadn't timed it, but the 17 minutes of dialogue thing is, I mean, what a formatively interesting thing to do and choice to make. And the way that the story choice here, the gentleman coming in and robbing the town of their voices so that they can't scream when they're trying to harvest their heart, then manifest structurally and in terms of how these scenes are staged. And even I was so interested to watch it like a second time around with the captioning on and not get the captioning as they're mouthing to each other. And, like, you can decide if you're trying to lip read along with them. And I think they make it very easy for you to do that. But also they're miming, you know, Xander boobies. Like, it's just, you know, it's incredible. So I just thought it was so clever and creative and really, like, elevated in terms of how the concept paired with the execution thought that was great. It's also scary. Like, these villains are harrowing. Oh, my God. Their faces, like, they're haunting the way they're floating through town. They're like Descent esque minions who scared the out of me. You know, I have, like, PTSD from creatures that move like this horrible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Whedon has said that the. The way that they float is based on nightmares that he has had. I'm like, of course you can tell this is from something deep, primal nightmare.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And then taking like, the song, you know, Buffy has another dream and there's like, the lyrics and we're okay, the clues and it's setting up. And did this. Is this a prophetic dream or just another mystery of your mind? Like, all of that is there. I also just thought that this was one of the funniest episodes of the show to date. It's also a very sexy episode and in a few different ways. It had everything. It was just the perfect brew and the perfect alchemy. I maybe when we finish the watch, we'll do like, you know, a few, like, quick top tens for like, you know, funniest moments. Most of some of our categories, but for the whole series or something, episode rankings. I'm not. I don't think too that this point in a show that is hysterical, that, like, has me in stitches all the time. I have laughed harder than I did during the overhead projector scene. I was in tears. Like, Buffy. Like, that's just incredible. It's incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Please clip that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I was like, man, Xander, Xander. Angel must really be working with something because she's going from like here up to her shoulder, like, miming the stake. And they all think she's doing like a jerk off things. I'm like, okay, well, now, you know,

[Joanna Robinson]

information about good for Angel. Does that make you want to watch the spin off more?

[Mallory Rubin]

It sure does.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

That is an iconic, absolutely iconic moment. Also, when I texted you about it,

[Mallory Rubin]

you immediately had the gift queued up to send me, which, like, of course, never doubted you for a second.

[Joanna Robinson]

I want to share this, like, this little thing I have that my pals Kristen and Jenny made for, for me and for a lot of other people who sort of like, this is when they did their series finale live show and they made these for, like, some of the people who had, like, worked on the podcast. This is the Buffy wool patrol tonight. But it's me because you can see their little glasses. Joy to wool. This is like a prized possession of mine. I think it was such a cute idea.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely beautiful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very important to me. I love that I was like, oh, I have random Buffy props that I can bring in. I love the fairy tale theme that comes back. And we've talked about this before with like, you know, in fear itself and helpless. We have those twin sort of Little Red Riding Hood moments for Buffy. We had gingerbread, we had the Hansel and Gretel stuff. And so I love this, like, very, you know, you get a lot of folklore, you get a lot of demons and stuff like that. But when Buffy engages in fairy tale, I think that's always like a really fun thing that they do. This episode, which is the highlight of the season and the high, a highlight of the series, is followed by one of the worst episodes, Doomed, which was written three credited. Three credited writers is tough on an episode. Marty Knox and David Fury. Jayna Benson wrote it famously over a weekend in a rush because someone else was supposed to write the episode. And I believe he was, like, on his honeymoon, and so they, like, just dashed this together.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. Really tough. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Another fun fact about this episode, Mallory, and I'm curious if you would liked it more or less if they had done this, is that initially the plan was to have Buffy and Riley have sex for the first time in this episode. Because Joss was like, we could do that without dialogue for a while, and people might be more like. I think there was a fear of, like, are people gonna, like, tune out? Because there isn't any talking, how can we keep them engaged? You know, all that sort of stuff like that. And he's like, oh, if we put in a sex scene, you know, need talking during the sex scene, and we could. We could do that. And then he's like, maybe it's a little early for them to get into that instead of just have them fight

[Mallory Rubin]

in a clock tower and kiss.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think there was the right decision to not do that here because the. It's just one of those things where the episode is so perfect. It's like, you know, the idea of introducing any other element.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think also, as much as you and I are aligned on Riley, I think the, like, mutual reveal for Riley and Buffy inside this episode is really good. Agreed.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, agreed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything else you want to say about Hush specifically?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, we have such great Olivia Giles stuff in Hush that I don't need any Riley or anyone else, frankly. Yeah. I just thought this was great. It was such a delight to finally see it and understand why it means so much to people. It's just wonderful. Can't wait to keep going.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's just get into our superlative show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Exciting.

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

U.S. all right, we're going to start with favorite line.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. Do you actually have a pick like a winner? Cuz as usual I was very undisciplined and have like a cluster of contenders but not a winner. So you want to go first.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we have the our category which is like funniest moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so that was my easiest pick of the. Well, I Didn't like. So then I challenged myself to pick something that wasn't funny. You know what I mean? Just for no reason other than, like,

[Mallory Rubin]

got a lot of category bleed. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And there's no problem with that. So I'm gonna pick from freshman Xander. This is not a funny moment. Xander earnestly saying, when it's dark and I'm all alone and I'm scared or freaked out or whatever, I always think, what would Buffy. I want to cry. What would Buffy do? You're my hero. That's a beautiful moment. Just like a really important Buffy Vampire Slayer moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love that scene between them that's

[Joanna Robinson]

so great when they remember that Xander is the quote, unquote, heart of the group. Like, it can really, really hit. And, like, I mean, we haven't mentioned this, but, like, watching this after Nicholas Brendan died, Like, very painful.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very, very painful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really painful. And is, like, you know, it doesn't change my critiques of the character of Xander. They still exist. I'm not gonna pretend that they don't. But, like, that guy had, like, a really tough life. And, like, watching everyone's. Everyone in the cast talk about it and navigate their own complicated feelings about him. Um, but Alyson Hannigan's tribute, which was a reference to something that happens in season six, like, really, really got me. And it's a. It's a moment of the show where, like, Xander as the heart is, like, so important. And so this was, like a. Sorry. I didn't think I would get emotional about it, but this is, like a remind. A pre. Pre echo of that moment in. Inside of this episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, yeah, you're the first person I thought of.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I got a lot of text messages from people. Um, what's your. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. What's your. What's your line here? Or some of your picks?

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. Okay. I have a few. Also from the freshman Buffy. Buffy's intellect is celebrated many times across this season, but I do think one of the truest and purest continuations from high school to college in terms of Buffy's relationship to her academic pursuits was Buffy just, like, forgetting to sign up for classes. So was starting off within the freshmen. And Willow is helping Buffy, like, go through the course catalog and identify contenders. And it's like, oh, introduction to this. Do they have an introduction to the modern blurb? It's, like, incredible. That was amazing. I also liked one of the goons in Sunday's crew is like, are we gonna fight? Or is there just Gonna be a monster sarcasm rally. That was great. Harsh light of day. We're gonna celebrate Harmony momentarily. But I loved when Buffy finds out that Harmony is a vampire and says, harmony's a vampire. She must be dying without a reflection. That was great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Initiative, when Riley seeks out Willow for advice on how to court Buffy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Willow, giving a lot of comfort to men inside of that episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And he says something about his honest face, which I'll come back to. To ridicule in another category. Put a pin in that. But her response is, I've seen honest faces before. They're usually attached to liars, which I just thought was sick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I loved that. That was awesome. I already mentioned in pangs when Buffy says, I like my evil. Like, I like my men evil. Very good. Something blue when Willow is assuaging her guilt by baking them all cookies and says, well, baking lifts about 30% of my guilt, but only 7% of my inner turmoil. That felt like just a great Buffy the Vampire Slayer line. And then the line I greeted you with today, Ethan, in A New man episode 12. It's the Stay and gloat that gets me every time. Just an iconic Ethan moment. I love him.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll talk about him again. I will also say, you know, the sort of, like, the. In the vein of, like, the worst person, you know, makes a good point when Parker's talking about choices. Like, it's bullshit. But we like when Buffy engages with this theme ever since, like, lie to me and stuff like that. So, like, this is every time the show is talking about choices. What choice did you have? Oz talks about, you know, I didn't have a choice. But of course he did. Like, he could have told someone all this sort of stuff like that. So, like, thinking about Buffy saying, previously, you had a choice. You didn't have a good one, but you had a choice. You know, and so I was reminded of that. All right. Best villain of the week.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I feel like it's almost for this pod. Season 4, Part 1, Non Gentleman Edition, Non hush edition. Because that would just clearly be my pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would agree with you. I do want to shout out Doug Jones, who's, like the. The Alpha gentleman. Doug Jones. Incredible. Like, you know, has. Has done this kind. Like, this is who you want.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you're unfamiliar with his work, Shape of water. You know, Hocus pocus, Hellboy. Like, Doug Jones has just really been doing it in genius for a very long time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, like, he. Like, all of the guys playing the gentleman are Great. But he is, like. You can tell it's him. His hand movements are just like. Yeah, just, like, so good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. So that's the pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure. I do have a runner up, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

I will go with. Okay, so this is where I wanted to celebrate fear itself a little bit more.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Because I thought that episode was wonderful. So good. Really creative. I really agree with what you said earlier. The way that the. You know, because everything is, like, literalizing inside of this experience. The haunted house is coming to life, and so the jelly eyeballs become actual eyeballs. You know, the toilet plastic spider becomes an actual spider, et cetera. But the way then that all of their anxieties and doubts come to the surface there. Like Xander feeling invisible and like, a member who has been, like, left behind inside of this group of people who are moving forward with her life. Willow feeling like, I'm not your sidekick, Buffy. Like, I can do my own thing. Right? I can make the decisions. I can lead us.

[Joanna Robinson]

But also her, like, fear of her magic, and can she control it?

[Mallory Rubin]

Can she control the magic that, you know, the knock from Buffy about, like, you're just kind of like 50, 50 with your spells. And this is a through line of the season for Willow, assessing the magic and the draw. And there are various moments, not just in this episode, but across the episodes of, like, is this the right moment that you should try this? You know, Giles coming in and saying, like, your power's not focused right now. And she's like, oh, I can't do magic cause I'm in pain. Like, I thought that was all really interesting across the season. So seeing a glimpse of that here also with Willow and Oz, his fear of hurting her or someone by turning into the wolf, you know, seeing the scratch mark on her hand. Even though, as you're, you know, that, like, there is a supernatural thing afoot and it's not gonna stick. It's terrifying to see that happen.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rewatching on episode out, knowing that he will leave so soon. And when she says, like, don't leave me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, God, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Horrible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Really intense. Buffy's fear of abandonment. Right. When you know the scene with Joyce and they're talking about her father. Yeah. Everything with Parker.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hank Summers eternally. I have notes for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible stuff. Hank in absentia. Really, this season, making an impact. So not like, the mark of Gaknar and little mini, like, short king who got stomped in terms of the physical manifestation of him, but the way that that magic affects our group I thought was incredible. And I will. It will Come up in another category. No surprise. But this, this villain of the week gives us a, like, need to watch it in private and then have a cold shower. Giles with the chainsaw sequence. That was one of the most powerful things I've ever seen in my life.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very important.

[Mallory Rubin]

So that's. That's my pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm gonna pick. I really like the freshman. I'm gonna pick Sunday because the good one, good one. The move that Sunday makes to. When she breaks the umbrella that Jonathan gave Buffy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Outrageous.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's one of the worst things that anyone does on this show. Full stop. I think it was so smart for them to do that because she's like, what is this dumb toy? All of us at home are like, you know, like, how fucking dare you. But also like, your high school identity doesn't matter here. You know, you have to, like, let go of childish things or whatever the case may be. I just like, really good for that moment alone. And her great vampire goons, which are all. They're all really fun, like Sunday and her. And her hench, I would put it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wouldn't have minded them sticking around a little longer.

[Joanna Robinson]

Gone too soon.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gone too soon. You know, Ethan's eligible in a number of categories today, but just another. Me too. Just another opportunity to say that I never mind seeing Ethan Rain ever.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, Best fit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tougher category this season than in some.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because that's why we have Worst fit this season.

[Mallory Rubin]

We do. I will say I like. I really like in general the way Xander is dressed this season, which feels very true to 18 year old into 19 year old boy who's figuring things out in like what would be your freshman year of college. He has like, like some of the kind of like. Oh, we're experimenting like the kind of like cable knit vest over the like salmon undershirt thing. A lot of Adidas shirts.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you feel? How do you feel about Spike in Xander's shirt?

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. And the shorts, just amazing stuff. But Spike is my actual pick. Even though it's not really a new look for Spike yet. We will get to the new looks for Spike. Very funny. When he's like under the tarp, I'm par Boyle. You're incredible. But just the. The trench coat, the red button down so we get the pop of color.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's the iconic Spike. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The black tee and you know, we've seen the boots, the jeans, the belt. We've seen Spike in some tight jeans, but these gray jeans that he's wearing in the beginning episodes. Here I am going to put and this is from, from me, a real honor to say because I take this seriously. I am putting these jeans that Spike is wearing the kind of charcoal gray jeans in the Kevin Costner in Field of Dreams Jean Bulge hall of Fame. The way that those are hugging Spike,

[Joanna Robinson]

that's like your highest honor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's, it's impactful. Okay, so that's my pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's so funny that you picked that and not like the shirtless Spike content. Really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also very, very good season.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it will continue.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

James Mars is like, I did not work this hard to keep my shirt on. I'll tell you how much I like

[Mallory Rubin]

when Harmony is like drawing on his back. Yes, good stuff, good stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm gonna give it. So this is to honor my pal Katie Rich, who had a great Project Hail Mary tweet where she posted a photo of Sandra Healer and she says something like hot coastal granny Summer. She was just like talking about all the knitwear that she wears in that. So Buffy has this gray sweater and beer bad that I think is just like very Strat esque, like very hot coastal grandmother summer. So as a, as a fan of knitwear, I was just really into it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love this. Two follow ups on the knitwear front. Have you seen the, the Fox cardigan? Ryland's cardigan from Project Hail Mary has become like a knit your own sweater sensation. That the pattern is.

[Joanna Robinson]

It already existed. The pattern is like in order to buy, you have to spend like $90 just on the pattern.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is that true? Well, I did not know that.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're only selling it in kits. I've looked into this. They're only selling it as a kit. Cuz I was like, can I buy this for Mallory or something like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love to knit. As you know. I've lost. I used. I actually used to know how. I haven't done it in years. I never got to a complicated pattern. I sent it to my stepmom who is, I would say an expert knitter and like routinely makes sweater. So I sent it to her and I was like, check it out. Sort of secretly hoping that she'll make it for me.

[Joanna Robinson]

She should. I'll follow up. No, I was looking into it. I was like, can you buy it? You have to spend that much money just for the. But they're only selling it as like a kit. So they'll send you the yarn and the pattern.

[Mallory Rubin]

So like, so you're getting the yarn. Great yarn.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like, I think it's like. I think it's acrylic yarn. So I. I don't know. I still feel like I admire the hustle.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, of course.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because the non fox version of that pattern is like five bucks or something

[Mallory Rubin]

like that, which is more in capitalize on the moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, but they're just sort of like, no shame in the game. We know we got a winner, so we will. We will make you spend for it. I'm excited to see everyone's, you know, sand it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Send us hobbits and dragons at gmail dot com. If you've been knitting Project Hail Mary cardigan in your own time at home, send us. We'd love to see. Speaking of beautiful sweaters, obviously, I will once again celebrate Giles in this category as well. And I was confused, you know, in part because of this. This shirt that I got before I had really. You know, we talked a little bit last season about seeing a little bit of the, like. Oh. Giles has started to incorporate some, you know, after the rift with the Watchers Council. He's got like a kind of like, loose fitting, seemingly like Eddie Bauer fleece thing. What's going on here? I'm getting used to it. Okay. I knew a lot of sweaters were coming, but I didn't know to what extent.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do that gesture again.

[Mallory Rubin]

Xander, I. I just have to say, I am a fan. You and I, we've texted a lot about Giles fashion journey. It's a thrill to me to see him wear jeans and a sweater. And I am particularly enthusiastic about. I gasped aloud when I saw him wearing the turtleneck in the bushes with Xander in episode seven. But I was a brief glimpse in his little kitchen there in something blue. Episode nine, the Cream Roll Neck Sweater. When he calls Willow, he's like, you were supposed to bring the truth serum. What's up? It's just not the color I am accustomed to seeing him in. He wears a lot of, like, olives, a lot of grays, a lot of browns. I just love to know that he's experimenting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. You know, experiment is not just for freshmen in college, but also for post library librarians.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gentlemen of leisure. Yeah. Gentlemen of leisure. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Similarly, I'm also gonna say Olivia wearing. I guess Giles is short and nothing else. But it's very tailored. So like a very tight Giles button down and nothing else. Just showing up like, she looks fantastic in it, but also just. The implications are great.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then he comes out in his bathrobe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spoiler. This will be coming up in another category.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Worst fit. AKA Dear God. What were we wearing? I honestly think the early Aughts are some of the worst fashion that's ever existed. That is something I will die on. So let's leave Spike wearing Xander's shirt out of it. I'm gonna say I'm gonna run through some things.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

On the hair front, this is not really a fit, but I'm just gonna say Sunday has some incredible, insane 2000s hair. It's 1999, but, like, the, like, tiny twists thing. Great. Tara's zig zag part also on the list.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very of the moment. Giles, though, his hair is kind of back on trend. He's got a little bit of the, like, mini mullet thing going that, like. I mean, you know, Giles, Paul Mescal, Jacob Elordi, Austin Butler. What's the difference? I ask you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Same. Same to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nothing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Same. Same. So many shearling jackets on Willow and Oz. Just a lot of them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Buffy and her terrible tiny bandanas in living conditions of Wild at Heart. And then so many peasant blouses, ponchos and backless shirts secured with ties. Just like. I just think, really, it's just like some heinous shit going on here at UC Sunnydale. What do you want to. What do you want to shout out?

[Mallory Rubin]

I will toss out as, I guess, my pick. The horrifying moment where Giles had to, in a new man, wear Ethan's clothes, even just for a moment at the motel. That was harrowing. That was disturbing. And it shook me to my core as it shook Giles to his core. But I just appreciated the number of times across the season where somebody inside of the story remarks upon the fashion. So, like, our girl Sunday in the Freshman insults Buffy's clothes to her face. And then later is, like, those jeans with the little patches just mocking her. Part of what she's mocking is the fashion. You never thought that Buffy would be on the other end of something like that when Veruca and post.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cordelia.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly. Yes, for sure. When Veruca and Oz go to the laundry room to thieve. To swipe some clothes from the other students. And Veruca's like, the kids in the storm need Fashion 101 in a big way. And then Oz puts on this just, like, gigantic, oversized outfit. That was amusing. And, of course, Buffy's reaction in Hush to the. The, like, little Giles was drawing in, like, a frock, basically.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she's just like,

[Mallory Rubin]

great stuff. Yeah, great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, we have lost Cordelia. I did not put Oz on the list here. We're Changing this category to Rapid Fire Best Anya and Harmony Isms.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just a quick. I mean, you've already mentioned that you enjoyed her, but, like, were you surprised that Harmony got, like, this kind of role this season?

[Mallory Rubin]

I had no idea that this was coming, so this was a genuine surprise to me. Um, you know, I. Painful, obviously, to see the way that Spike behaves and how he treats her. Horrible. I liked when she stood up for herself at the end and is like, I'm brilliant and beautiful and you're mean. And then pulled a stake out and he's like, you keep that in our bed. I got such a kick out of Harmony and her various interactions with different people. In episode three, Harsh Light a Day, two contenders. Then I have one from the Initiative. She just, like, wants to go party. She wants to eat. Spike is like, I have a tunnel to dig. I'm trying to find important relic. He's like, you know, right, there's your meal. This one tastes funny. Take me out. Spike says, he's perfectly fresh. And Harmony says, I think I had a math class with him last year. And I didn't like him that much either.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's incredible to me. Very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was hysterical. And I absolutely loved. I was dying when they make their way up into the crypt and, you know, Spike thinks that he has identified what he is seeking and pulls this necklace off the skeleton. Of course, we will see that Harmony has the ring, but when she pulls it off the skeleton and she's like, ew, like, you're too good to work a class. Just iconic. Absolutely incredible. And then I liked when she was discovered with burning the pile of Spike's possessions.

[Joanna Robinson]

My fire.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, right. Like, I'd listen to the Sex Pistols. Just incredible stuff from Harmony. Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's my Harmony situation. Is Antonio Banderas a vampire? No. Oh, can I make him a vampire? No. Wait, on second thought, yeah, go do that. Take your time. Do Melanie and the kids as well. So Dakota Johnson's here in this season of Bathy of Empire Slayer. And then, like, inside that same scene, she's like, if I don't have. Like, she's like, talking about her heartbeat. And she's like, if I don't have the heartbeat, why am I covered in all of these veins? And then Seduce Sims. Great stuff. Blondie Bear. All iconic stuff. On the Anya front, I believe you. We both have a clip. So would you like to start with your clip?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what mine is? Do we have the same clip, or did you pick it different? Different.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I would like to I would like everyone to enjoy your clip.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see it. I think it's the secret to getting you out of my mind, putting you behind me, behind me, figuratively. I'm thinking face to face for the event itself. Just one of the most amazing scenes in the show to date. This is from Harsh Light of Day,

[Joanna Robinson]

the juice box tweets.

[Mallory Rubin]

Coming, coming back to that one. In another category, that was every moment of this exchange and this sequence was incredible. Basically every moment with Anya across the season is incredible. I'll share some runners up after you share your pick. But this initial, like, I can assume, a standing Friday night date and mutual recognition of prom night as our dating anniversary and Xander's the rapid journey here from. Cause, like, I didn't know, you will recall from our last pod, I was like, man, these Xander Anya moments are, like, incredible. And I didn't know until you said, like, Anya's gonna be a big part. And I was so. I'm like, oh, my God, we're gonna get. But you could feel in real time that there was magic there, right? So it's no surprise that they brought this back. But to be right back in that dynamic, it's just incredible. And that clip, this, like, there's, you know, like, two young people, Anya, obviously a bazillion years old as a demon, but like, you know, two young people figuring out how to navigate each other in their relationship. But she' I'm going to tell you exactly what I want and how and when and why. And there's like, the pace and the cadence and the clip of how she delivers these lines. It's hysterical. I just love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Blunt, bossy and sex positive. The Mali Rubin story. I feel like this character's built in a lab for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do. I love her.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can we play my clip, please?

[Mallory Rubin]

I have a friend who's coming to town and I'd like us to be alone. Oh, you mean an orgasm friend. He does mean an orgasm friend. He does.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think he says, like, it's the most disturbing way you could have put it. Thank you so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

Once again, I stand with Anya.

[Joanna Robinson]

What else do you have? Runner up for Anya.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I. In episode eight, Pangs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

When she's watching Xander, waiting to watch him dig.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's just, like, so fucking horny. I mean, this. Obviously, all of these pictures could have also gone in the horny and the horny and the horny. There's a lot of crossover between Anya isms and horniest moments. But I want to see Xander digg And then she's not rippling at all. And soon he'll be sweating. I'm imagining having sex with him again. It's like, incredible. And then when she goes to wake him the next day because he's not at work and she was looking for him and he's very ill and we're about to find out that he's got magical syphilis. She's like, you're pasty and wet and disgusting. Just everything she says is incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

On the magic syphilis, fry from pangs. I have Xander saying, can we come rocketing back to the part about me and my new syphilis? And she says, it'll make you blind and insane, but it won't kill you. The smallpox will.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. Great stuff. I also loved in that same episode, the way she described Angel. So this is Angel. He's large and glowery. It's like, yeah. And, yeah, this is also another. You know, many of these are shared Anya and Xander celebrations. I got such a kick out of in. In episode nine, something Blue, and she's recounting her vengeance demon recruitment because back courting. Willow, I've been dumped. I was miserable. Doing a few vengeance spells. Boils on the penis, nothing fancy. It's like, yeah, I got a coffee today, you know, Boils on the penis, nothing fancy. Just amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't like to spoil things for you, but can I tell you, we are going to get an Anya origin story episode.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. What season? How long do I have to wait? I can't. I can't wait. I think it's six.

[Joanna Robinson]

It might be five.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm thrilled. I simply can't wait. That's incredible. I don't know. Before. Oh, you mean an orgasm, friend. Which was, of course, on my contenders list as well. Right before that exchange in front of Giles and Spike, Anya and Xander are arguing. And Anya's this isn't a relationship. You don't need me. All you care about is lots of orgasms. And Spike, like, perks up from the Catrion. Giles, like, anywhere but here. And Xander's like, okay, remember how we talked about private conversations?

[Joanna Robinson]

This is why this is Xander's best season, I think, is because, like, so much of his stuff is with Anya.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anya in her bunny suit. In fear itself. Incredibly good. The Anya bunny stuff will be an ongoing runner. And then, oh, amazing in Hush. Anya's let's fuck charades that she does for Xander is. Is, yeah. Incredibly good. All right, the next category is also a new category we're calling this Riley's most exasperatingly dull moment. Boy. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you mine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. I'm excited.

[Joanna Robinson]

Comes off the heels of, actually, one of Riley's best moments, which is punching Parker in the face. But then when Forrest, also a character I don't really like, asks him about it, he goes, this is in the Initiative. He's like, I didn't like hearing him talk about Buffy that way. Well, I guess. I guess I like her.

[Mallory Rubin]

Marvel.

[Joanna Robinson]

I fell asleep while he was talking about.

[Mallory Rubin]

I just think all of the exchanges between Riley and Forrest about Buffy are like. I mean. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, I did.

[Mallory Rubin]

I will say it was pretty funny when Forest was like, yeah, she's cool and she's hot, she's tempid. She's all the temperatures. And that made me chuckle. But mostly it's just like, God, this guy is the Willow. Such a snore.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Willow. Riley stuff is kind of good. Like when he's. When they're at the party and he, like, gets them to cut the dick my baby music. And her talking to him about, like, what Buffy's dressed for and stuff like that. Like, some of that stuff works, but that's kind of the only time that Riley works.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's why this is an appropriate framing. Exasperatingly dull moment. Because I think Riley. The idea of Riley is interesting to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's just the execution. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, the idea of this, like, kind of like Captain America type. Like, you know, oh, he's in so many ways the ideal and what mysteries is what secrets are waiting for us to discover about him and for Buffy to discover about him.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he has, like, a.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think there are some aspects of this that are, you know, I assume intentional and deliberate in terms of kind of, like, interrogating his righteousness. They are like we. We get to. In Doomed. You know, a lot of these conversations that they have that Buffy and Riley have about their compatibility, you know, the viability of even pursuing it and everything that is fueling that. From Buffy's side, we understand very deeply. From Riley's side, less. Well, like, it's. It's. It's an interesting idea that people who are fighting the same battle in a different way, what would that look like? But I just. I find Riley to be just so boring and, like, uninteresting. Just uninteresting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Captain America, really? And, I mean, this is why. This is why we go out of our way to constantly praise Chris Evans's Steve Rogers, Captain America. It's a very hard thing to make. Compelling and interesting. Just like. Like a good guy or like, Peter Coffey is dunk, you know, like, just like a guy who's got an honor code. And, you know, and that's just like, usually so boring. And when you. When you have someone who really figures out to make. How to make that interesting, like, I. I'm always. That's why I talk about Steve Rogers all the time. Because, like, it's so against my favorite type. I love a Spike and a Jamie and a Sawyer and a Frank Langdon and whatever the case may be, you know, like a problematic guy in a redemption arc. That's what I'm here for. And Riley's just sort of like, I'm just a guy. And I'm like, I'm so bored. And I really wish I. I liked you more. Again, Mark Bluclius. I like you as a person.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's innocent. We're on an incredible Frank Langdon group chat right now, and we'll. We'll leave it there, but it's been riveting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Was it Dr. Frank? Drug user.

[Mallory Rubin]

Frank, drug user, incredible spouse. I think that the. For those reasons, Riley actually saying things about himself out loud are the worst sins and, like, worst offenders for me.

[Joanna Robinson]

So what do you have in the

[Mallory Rubin]

Initiative episode seven, that conversation with Willow? Just sort of hoping you'd think I'd have an honest face. I'm like, what does he think the person on the other end of that

[Joanna Robinson]

is going to say in herself while he's actively lying?

[Mallory Rubin]

Lying.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

And again, that's like, a good example, I think, of where there's something there that's really interesting. It's like he is actually living this. This lie in the secret life and deceiving other people, but walking around, championing. And Buffy will of course, call him out, like, are you even from Iowa? He's born and bred. Okay, I fell asleep again. The moaning is a cheese stick failure to Willow later. Which is pretty funny. But, like, you don't understand. I'm good at this. That's what I do. Work hard, apply myself, get it done. Very tough. So episode nine, Something Blue. This was very emblematic to me. This is during the picnic. And he's like, you know, you don't love to drive. You don't love driving. Let me tell you what it feels like to ride. And, oh, the power. And like any other character in Buffy, you'd be like, I want to, like, fuck this person now. And Riley, I'm like, he doesn't even realize until the very end. That this is like, could be hot. You know, it's like, tragic. Absolutely tragic. Really tough. Just really, really, really tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's such a good. It's such an emblematic thing for me. Okay. Because, like, okay, obviously I think James Marsh is an incredibly attractive person, but I think. What? Like, clearly. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but you do. But this is my issue with, like, just casting for hunks. Because, like, you need more than just like, Mark Lucas is a good looking guy. That is a. That is like, genuinely keep his mouth shut. That's a hunk.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He can wear a T shirt and a pair of jeans and a 90s haircut.

[Joanna Robinson]

I am so beyond bored. And I'm just like, you need something more than that. And when like, you know, YA shows or all these sort of things like that just like, go for the, you know, best looking guy. Because they're like, that's what girls want. I'm like, no. Yeah, they want, like, someone interesting. And like, you know, for all of my, like, I have some critiques about David Boreanas, but, like, Riley makes Angel look like. I mean, I love angel and I love Angelus, you know, and all that sort of stuff like that. But, like, this makes even Angel's, like, worst moments look like the best thing I've ever seen on television when compared to Riley.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that, like, Buffy being in an era of her life where she's not even necessarily on a true base level. Like, I want a nice guy, but actually, like, I need to convince myself that I want to try a nice guy as a story beat I'm compelled by. But there's a difference between, like, Riley is nice, though a little suffocating and clingy, I would say. But it's like Walsh, a character I like even less than Riley.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Giles getting hammered. Me, like, that fish wife. There's like, incredible stuff, all of it wonderful. But I did, like, when in episode 12, she ribs him for how he's talking about Buffy because he's like, she's the truest soul I've ever known. Oh, no. Spontaneous poetic exclamations. Lord, spare me, college boys in love. Very amusing. This is.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is why this season is so tough for me. Like, Maggie is a character I should really like. Like, a kind of mean, smart woman is, like, usually something I really like. And she sucks. I hate it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Not a good character.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, best fight scene. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What did you pick here?

[Joanna Robinson]

I've got a couple options. The. The Mr. Pointy spin move in Freshman, which will be Part of the open. Like, whenever I see an opening credits moment, like, and that's just like. That's an iconic gif. That is just like, an iconic moment of Buffy fighting there. People like to make fun of Buffy versus Spike in harsh light of day because you can, like, very clearly see their stunt doubles. But I kind of like that fight. So I don't know what it is about me that I really like that fight.

[Mallory Rubin]

I liked that fight, too. I did. You know, I had some notes from Spike on the tactics. Given that it all came down to, like, I can just take this wren off your hand. It's like, okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

It.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And this is the first. I think this is the first season that I'm. You know, I'm watching this on Hulu.

[Joanna Robinson]

That.

[Mallory Rubin]

Though, as I told you, I recently discovered that Adam had all of these DVDs. He just added all. This is the first widescreen on the streamers now. And not as I. As we briefly discussed the, like, mistakenly. Yeah, but so, you know, the camera quality has improved. You're closer in, but the stunt doubles are so much more apparent.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're, like, a little distracting. Also, it's like a daytime vampire fight, which is unusual and just, like, really tough for the almost done double fight. So I think I have to give it, actually to Harmony and Xander in the Initiative. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which is not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not. It's the best. Even though it's, like, terribly bad. They're like, weird little slap fight. I'm just, like, a big fan of. I just love it.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a great one. So doomed. Not a episode I enjoyed, but I did, like, when Spike realizes that he can attack the demons without the debilitating pain and is like, that's right. I'm back and I'm a bloody animal. Great stuff. And in a more tender way, Buffy, you know, Giles has spent all of a new man feeling cast aside, discarded, irrelevant. Then literally turning into a demon. Some hysterical Spike Giles stuff. And that scene was just like, no, you're not speaking English, but, like, I can understand you. Yeah. The fight when Buffy goes to, like, avenge Giles and she is fighting Giles without realizing it and is like, this is for Giles. And he's, like, croaking out, is it demon for me? And then she sees. She stabs him. And the green goo comes out and she could. And his eyes go wide, and she could recognize that it's him and no one else. I mean, Spike could hear, but nobody else could recognize him. Like, Xander didn't recognize him when he was, you know, over him in his basement bed. And then Giles asked her later, like, how did you know it was me? And she says, your eyes. So that was very sweet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, I love how you turned this category into a sweet child's moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't help myself, truly.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. This is not the horniest season that is yet to come, I would say, but this is among the horniest seasons. So there's a lot of options here for horniest moments.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just have to be myself and say, give it to Buffy and Spike in Something Blue, where they're just, like, all over each other. And especially as a reprieve from the absolute, like, pile of Elmer's glue that is Riley Finn. Tough. Sarah Michelle Geller and James Marsters have just, like, incredible, explosive chemistry. And whether they're. I remember. I think I told you the story, but, like, my. Someone in my family in a very, like, hey, at. At the holidays, what is Joanna into? And. And someone. My. My parents were like, she likes Buffy. Got me, like, a Buffy fan magazine, which is like. Like the most, like, sweetly misguided, like, I'm not a fan magazine kind of person. But I did read it, and it was about. It was all James Marsters and Emma Caulfield and just sort of like, them talking about joining it. And what James Marsters said is like, I realized that in order to get screen time on this show, you have to either be kissing or killing Buffy. Like, those are the two things sort of thing. And so, like, the meal he makes out of his opportunity here in Something Blue was like, a calculated thing from Marshers. To be like. Like, this is gonna matter to my career, so I'm gonna go for it. And he, like, absolutely killed it. Also, the lead up to that, which will come up again in my categories, but, like, her taunting him in the bathtub and all that sort of stuff. Like, that is also, I think, incredibly horny. So

[Mallory Rubin]

also one of my picks, obviously, I. You go from inside that same episode, Something Blue. Riley, during the picnic, talking about, you know, revealing that he had, like, practiced how he was gonna navigate this with Buffy. And then saying something like, it's like an oral exam. And again, not realizing that this could be a sexy thing. And then you get to the Spike and Buffy and you're like, how is this in the same episode? We've talked about this before in other contexts with other stories. But, like, I'm just so. I love a well executed. We tested it without doing it. Choice in the story. Maybe you see characters hook up in a dream.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure, sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

Before they're hooking up for real or there's something inside of a supernatural circumstance where characters who, like, can't be together are outside of that circumstance for a minute. So allowing us and the characters to fully luxuriate in the undeniable chemistry between these two performers and characters, in a way, was so brilliant and so riveting. All of it was hot. I thought that in particular Buffy, like, curling up on Spike in Giles's Eames, you know? I love an Eames. Yeah. You put Spike and Buffy on top of it. My God, could I be more in. Just incredible. I thought that was fucking great. Loved it. And this was also where I was going to come back to the juice box.

[Joanna Robinson]

The juice squeeze. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everybody's hooking up in harsh light of day, right? Xander and Anya, Spike and Harmony, Buffy and Parker. Etc, this, the premature ejaculation via juice box when a Xander turns around and sees Anya naked is just like alltime stuff. I thought that was absolutely incredible. I loved it. I will say I'm putting all of my Giles Olivia moments into my daddy category, because I don't just. I. It would have just been more Giles. You can't. You can't contain him. You can't deny him. So I'm. I'm. I'm saving all that for another restraint. I know. I try significant restraint. I try.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really proud of you. You're welcome.

[Mallory Rubin]

What else is horny? I mean, there's a lot of horny stuff. I. Oh, you meant the.

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Anya sander. That was great. Oh, you know what I liked on. On the Riley Buffy front in episode 12, when Riley's boasting about his 17 kills. Right? 11 vamps and 60 minutes. And they're like, Walsh and Riley, how about you? For Buffy? And it's just like a parallel, like, I don't want to tell you my number, you know, which was like.

[Joanna Robinson]

But also like.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's that.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's that. It's the body count thing, but it's also the like, like, you know, a young woman being like, can I be better, stronger than my boyfriend at things?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I mean, that's also watching them spar. And she just kicks his fucking ass. Just destroys him. He's like, give me a week. Okay, sure. Sure, buddy. Also horny. Also in episode 12, Willow and Tara. They've had the like, hand holding electricity moment. Previously in Hush. And then we're working a spell. We're working a spell involving a rose. And here are some of the things we're gonna say.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, God.

[Mallory Rubin]

Start out slow Everything with Terra.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, Terra and Willow.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh. We're gonna float the rose, then use the magics to pluck the petals one at a time. It's a test of synchronicity. Our minds have to be perfectly attuned to work as a single delicate implement. Anytime you're talking about the petals of a rose moving slowly, I think, like,

[Joanna Robinson]

you know, I gotta give it to Tara. I think she has some game in. In Hush. When she's just like, you're so powerful. You're so special. Oh, yeah. You know, like, she's. She's working it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm feeling it, you know, feeling it.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. Most 1990 thing. 1990 slash 2000 things.

[Mallory Rubin]

Some good contenders in this stretch, man. Tough pick. What are you going with here? I have a few contenders.

[Joanna Robinson]

In honor of our pal Kathy, I'm going to give it to the use of do you believe in Life After Love by Cher.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is my first pick as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

My sister went on spring break in, I think, 99 or something like that. And she was in, like, I don't know, somewhere in Florida or something like that. And she was like, they played the youth, like, before this episode. She was like, they played do youo Believe in Laughter? Like, next door.

[Mallory Rubin]

I.

[Joanna Robinson]

On a loop. And I wonder if, like, one of the Buffy writers was also in that hotel in that spring break. Because they were just like, Kathy being like, it's share time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible the way she keeps going back over to the CD player to, like, re up the track. And Buffy's reaction to that, That's. That's my first pick as well. And also on the Kathy front, her. She has, like, the classic of the era, imac. You know, the. The color bubble iMac, the G3. So that's. That's very. Just, like. You see that? You remember where you were. I.

[Joanna Robinson]

My.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting. So I did orange, I did the laptop, and I spent my clamshell.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And I spent a good portion of my bat mitzvah money on it. And then because I really wanted it, I had to have it. And then realized that because Baltimore County Public Schools at that point were not on Macs, they were on PC. So it wasn't compatible with anything. Very shortly after, I had to sell it. And it was a real.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like.

[Mallory Rubin]

My parents were like, now you understand, like, how hard it is to earn a dollar. The value of money was like, fuck.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was my going away to college. Like, my. It was my, like, you're going to college, we're going to get you this computer. But It. But it was very much like, I want the lime green imac. And. And I got it. She had the. Kathy has like the blueberry. The classic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's like, that was like, got the, like. Yeah. The purpley, like, magenta Y. Oh, the magenta Y one.

[Joanna Robinson]

The blueberry one was like the default, like, whatever. But I really wanted the lime green because lime green was like a very of the moment color.

[Mallory Rubin]

Does it make you think it's a joke right away?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. The files are in the computer.

[Mallory Rubin]

What else was. Oh, Park. So I texted you about this, but I love Park. So Parker has like, Jesse in before sunrise. Classic 90s boyfriend hair, which is back gets served Instagram reels all the time right now about.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. It's a. Why did it ever go away? Is I think the question. But like, this. The 90s hairs back. The middle part, you know, he has this vintage 90s boyfriend hair. Hair. It's amazing. You're like, I love this. In the moment. You would have said that. Revisiting it now. You think that. And then after they have sex and he's like, oh, I thought. Sorry. I thought you understood. The part moves. It's a different haircut.

[Joanna Robinson]

Evil side part. Evil side part. Parker. I love that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought that was great. I like the peace sign sweater that Willow's wearing in Pangs. That took me back to when the ringer we did 99 Music Week a while ago. And, like, a bunch of people from the Ringer shared photos of them from 1999. And mine was me wearing, like, a hemp necklace holding up a peace sign and only a candle that's in peace. I was like, ah, Willow, there we go.

[Joanna Robinson]

We were. We were great in Italian.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh. And you know, I feel like the pick actually has to be. Especially because recently we were talking. I can't remember what pod we were talking about this on, but I had confronted. I had seen an Instagram reel about how kids now don't know what an overhead projector was. And I was like, I've never felt so fucking old and dead in my life.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, stranger things.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. So to be back here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. This is with love and respect. In Stranger Things. The best use of an overhead projector. Giles was prepared at all of media. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, he wasn't. He wasn't. He had his transparent. That's true. Backwards at first. Okay. Giles's most dad moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Boy, there are a lot.

[Joanna Robinson]

So usually I do something tender here and I have. I have a tender thing or two, but My main like dad moment is. And it's one of my favorite Giles moments in Fear itself. When he opens the door in the poncho and the sombrero and he has all the candy and he's just like really excited about his Halloween decorations. That is a very dad moment for our guy Giles.

[Mallory Rubin]

I did the poncho.

[Joanna Robinson]

The sombrero is just like all time wild stuff from Giles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Um, I did really try to like look at what was in his candy bowl. I was so curious. It's, you know, it's not like a high res shot, so. But you know, I think you can see a decent amount based on just recognizable wrappers.

[Joanna Robinson]

Reese's, It's a little too.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would have liked to see Giles experiment a bit more, but I was like, is that 100 grand?

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay? Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Crucially though, they're not bite size. They're full size candy bars. Hell yeah. Giles is always packing a full size.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, and always. What's your philosophy? You. Oh, no, I've been here. I know what Halloween candy you get. Never mind.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've seen it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've seen it all.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, that year round we keep a full slide out shelf in our pantries. I just think shots of candy full

[Joanna Robinson]

size bars are incorrect for Halloween. But I think fun size is way superior to a mini. Like, yeah, fuck a mini. But like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, like letting people take more than one. Because if you're giving out fun size. Yeah. Then like fun size is like variety.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, right. But like here's a Snickers and I'm like, I could get us Snickers anytime. Here's the thing.

[Mallory Rubin]

If you had gone to Giles's, you could have taken 10 full size candy bars because not a single soul went there and he was sitting sad boy. Growing pile of rappers. And I would once again like to offer my services in many respects to Rupert.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would like you to time travel back to Halloween 1999 and go. Go comfort him and then join him on his chainsaw adventure.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, gladly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anything. What. What do you want to dad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mom. I had like a.

[Joanna Robinson]

A lot.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't have one clear winner this time. Like I have some other times for dad moment. But I had a number of. Of moments that felt worth at least just quickly toasting in the. In the Freshman. We've already talked about this. But I just loved the like gentleman of leisure. The idea that he was referring to himself as the gentleman of leisure when everyone is. Else is like. Isn't that British for being unemployed? Felt very dad coded. Um, Buffy in Living conditions. She. She's trying to avoid Kathy, so she's hanging out in the courtyard.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love living conditions, but once again, it really bothers me whenever we return to, like, the. Nobody believes Buffy that something supernatural is going on.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm like, come the fuck on. That is silly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anyway.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is silly. I. I mean, I guess I wouldn't know how to respond specifically to the toenail thing, but in general, I think I would be ready to believe Buffy at this point. She. He comes back from his run, and he's sweaty and just gassed. And she's like, you run? And he's like. And jump and bend and occasionally frolic. Real dad vibes. Let's see. Pangs. Oh, when he. When Angel's back. Giles going into, like, dad lecture mode with angel about Buffy. Very dad. Very dad core. I'm glad that you're watching out for her, but I feel I should remind you that she's not helpless and it's not your job to keep her safe. And then angel, like, it's not yours anymore. Tough. Tough feedback. Tough feedback. And Giles saying, it's not fair. You know, that's what she'd say. You can see her, but she can't see you. I like. I liked that. Let's see, what else?

[Joanna Robinson]

I have one from something blue.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

My mommy goes. I'm not crazy. And I know that you probably don't approve. My father's not that far away. I mean, he could. But this day is about my family, my real family. And I would like you to be the one to give me away. And Giles being like, oh. Oh, Buffy, that's so. For God's sakes, this is nonsense. But, like, he's genuinely touched. Just above. He's like, walk me down the aisle. I want it to be you. Fuck you, Hank Summers.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was my next pick, too. It's great. It is amazing, in such a highly comic stretch of that episode, to give us a real, like, just little burst of heart there. I loved that. And then everything in a new man.

[Joanna Robinson]

Giles at her surprise party.

[Mallory Rubin]

People keep bringing him plates of cake, and then he's sitting by himself, and then he hears about Walsh for the first time. He's like, why didn't you invite her? And Buffy's like, she's like, 40. She wouldn't be hanging out with these kids. Kids. Also, I was like, Damn, I'm turning 40 this year. Like, it's four. Oh, no. I feel like my whole life is ahead of me. I'm gonna start.

[Joanna Robinson]

Valerie, are you going to a. An 18 year old birthday party at a college dorm.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, you're not yet to be invited.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, you're not. Probably not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't go to any parties. I won't be doing. I mean, it is weird. It's like sweet that Giles.

[Joanna Robinson]

Giles should be there, you know, whatever.

[Mallory Rubin]

But sweet that he's there because it's Buffy and it's her 19th birthday party.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sometimes, like maybe like we have a different celebration with Giles, you know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Like the equivalent of their Thanksgiving, which is like the Scoobies. Spike tied up in a chair. We'll come back to that.

[Joanna Robinson]

We are definitely coming back to that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have no doubt this is the same episode in New man where Giles. We see him feather dusting his books.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he likes sensational in his mouth.

[Mallory Rubin]

He sure does. So it could have also gone in most daddy moments. The way that he reacts to learning that everybody but him knew about Riley being part of the Initiative and everything. Spike. Spike, new professional Walt, that fish wife. And then when he is in his cups and in his feelings with Ethan. Incredible. The world has passed us by. Someone snuck in and left us a couple of has beens in our place. What am I? I'm an unemployed librarian with a tendency to get knocked on the head like it is. It's interesting actually to see him kind of interrogate where he is in his life. And what is that? And I'm curious, like, how long will he stay in this kind of state of limbo, you know, to.

[Joanna Robinson]

For like. For those of us who like Giles being like very specifically integrated into the plot. But I do like making this writer problem text where it's just sort of like, Giles isn't the school librarian, so what is his place in the show? Now Xander isn't going to UC Sunnydale. So like, what is his place in the show now? He's trying to figure out what his career is. And like, Giles is like, I don't know who I am. Because the writers are like. We don't know either. We used to have, you see, so tidily incorporated into the plot when everything revolved around high school. But now, you know, again. Once again, Joyce just like left out in the barely here. I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sad. Sad. Those were my dad picks.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm gonna make you feel better. Now. Giles's most daddy moment. I believe you have a clip for this. Let's just an embarrassment of riches.

[Mallory Rubin]

Giles does still live here, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

He does.

[Mallory Rubin]

He appears.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rupert, you have a guest. Buffy. Hello.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is this a bad time? No. Okay, from moment one, literally one of the first things I texted you about. One of the first things that we were texting with Rob about on our group chat. From moment one, I knew that Giles was undeniable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mm. You did.

[Mallory Rubin]

Walking sex. Oozing sex. Waiting for him and Jenny while they

[Joanna Robinson]

slept in a pile of books.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then there was a lot right away, you know, watching what was unfolding between him and Jenny. Obviously band candy. One of the thrills of my life. The gift that keeps on giving.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he sends most of season three, like morning, Jenny.

[Mallory Rubin]

This to me was a really important moment for the show to acknowledge something that is undeniable, which is his sexual ferocity.

[Joanna Robinson]

To quote my favorite forgotten HBO comedy, this guy fucks.

[Mallory Rubin]

This guy fucks.

[Joanna Robinson]

This guy. Fuck.

[Mallory Rubin]

Why are we waiting around to find out if Giles is gonna. This guy. And the idea that Olivia is there. Stunning, right? And she's like, oh, I couldn't pass through without looking up. Looking up. Old ripper. And you're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. The bathrobe, the easy grace and comfort around each other. Then like later in Hush when she comes back back took a. A sideswipe at baseball movies. In terms of the planer, I didn't love that. But other. Otherwise, Olivia has my heart. They talk for 30 seconds. Then she's like. Literally says, that's enough small talk. Don't you think? Let's. Not that we needed confirmation that Giles is great in bed, but there it is, right? We already had it. I mean, more than once with Joyce. Right? Hood of the car. We knew. We get to see them a couple times in bed together. Naked kid. I loved the glimpse of, like, his arm is around her and they're holding hands. They need to be touching each other. Wonderful. One of the best moments in this show so far for me is later in Hush. The gentlemen have already let loose their carnage. The apocalypse. Not an actual apocalypse. We'll get there again. That was great. When all three of them, like, again, another shot of Olivia. Olivia and Giles naked, cuddling in bed. So they're just fucking there. The town being quarantined.

[Joanna Robinson]

Suck your way through it. You know what I mean?

[Mallory Rubin]

State of crisis. And I'm like, I get it. I get it. So I have some runners up. But that's. That's the. That's a really obvious pick for. For daddy moment. He's just. He's undeniable. He really is.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think there's only one answer. It's different than yours, but we have a different relationship with Giles. And I believe it's Giles with the chainsaw.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the. The chainsaw is my. My next runner up.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great jacket in that scene, too.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible jacket. And the way he. Handles that heft. I felt again, like it answered questions I didn't need to have answered because I knew the answer in my heart. But I'm like, he is used to.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wish I had had a, A, a prettier laugh response to that, because I know that's going to be one of the quote cards is you saying, handle that heft. And then it's just going to be me, like, ugly laughing at you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just incredible stuff. I also enjoyed when in Something Blue, Spike is in the bathtub and he's begging for telly and he's like, passions is on. If you miss it all. And Giles is like, do what? Lick me to death. I'd like to try.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's in my funniest moments.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would like to try.

[Joanna Robinson]

Timmy's down the well is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Passions is on. And Timmy's down the well is incredible stuff. Down the bloody well is iconic daddy moment, too.

[Mallory Rubin]

When Oz, like, raves about the record collection in harsh light of day, you know, get to see the Velvet Underground. That was wonderful. And then, you know, we always. We can't break our streak of celebrating Giles being really violent in the most daddy category. So in a new man, when he sees Ethan and is like, you have no idea how much thrashing you is going to improve my day. Pretty hot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did improve your day?

[Mallory Rubin]

It sure did.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure did.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, Abrupt mood swing into the When Willow Cries, we cry category. And I have a clip.

[Mallory Rubin]

You love me?

[Joanna Robinson]

My whole life, I've never loved anything else.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's my pick. Too painful.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, earlier, also in that same episode. I don't really like that episode. I love that scene. That, like, goodbye scene is incredibly well done by both Seth Green and Alison Hannigan. You know, Willow spends a great chunk of this part of the season, like, demolished, depressed, destroyed, but not actively crying as much as she does in this episode. And that just, like, don't you love me anymore? My whole life.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, like, just absolutely guts me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Not my favorite episode either. I do like the way inside of it. Willow's paranoia and suspicion. But ultimately it's not paranoia because it's very well founded and justified. I know you don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like the way that she's watching Oz watch Veruca at the gig and like, for us at home, prior previous episodes, when they pass each other in the quad and they're like, you're like, oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Veruka's like, you knew what I was.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, okay. They can, like, smell each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fuck.

[Mallory Rubin]

The moment where Willow's talking about the Oz blushing behind his ears and says to Buffy, like, that's only for me. Heartbreaking. So you're building toward this point. And then when she finds him. When she finds them entwined and naked in the cell, and we get that, you know, him calling back to what she did with Xander. And, like, I thought that when she said you wanted her, like, in an animal way, like, more than you wanted me, like, more than you wanted me was so heartbreaking because he's been pushing back against everything that she said to that point and challenging it, but he's kind of, like, just silent there because there is something about what exists between them. And that's. Part of what he'll say is like, I. You know, I don't know where that line is anymore. But, yeah, that moment, like, don't you love me? It's just devastating. And then in Something Blue, a few episodes later, when she sees that his room is empty, and she's like, oh. Oh, he's. I thought. I kept telling myself, you know, she's going.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's, like, dropped out of class.

[Mallory Rubin]

She's going up to Walsh and Riley after class. And it's like, I didn't hear you say his name. And roll call. He's not gone. And then the room being empty, there's something about it that she, like, has to accept at that point. And then it kind of crushed. The crushing wave of grief just hits her again. And she says to Buffy, I feel like I've been split down the center and half of me is lost. It's just really sad.

[Joanna Robinson]

Especially, like, when you combine it with. One of my favorite scenes is, like, her talking in her sleep, right? And he says, like, come back to me, you know? And then she, like, fake, like, sleep talk. It's just, like, incredibly sweet. Okay, let's just swing the pendulum back once again. And this is a triple header category that I'm calling Spike's Hottest Moment, Funniest Moment, and Most Spike Moment. It's just a chance to celebrate Spike as much as possible. And I'm not ashamed. I gave you two Giles categories for the last few seasons because I love you. And here we go. It's a. It's a triple category for Spike. Uh, let us start, please, with Mike Clip. You made a pair.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't mean to. Undo it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Undo it. Spike in pangs tied to that chair just taking air.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. Watch. Watch the heart. And then he goes.

[Joanna Robinson]

A bear. A bear. You made a bear undo it. Is honestly, I think, one of the funniest things that ever happens on Buffy. I love it so much. What's your. You have a clip too, I believe.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do. I. I do. Yeah. Let's just. Let's. Let's. Let's. Let's enjoy this. Comfy. I'm chained in a bathtub drinking pig's blood from a novelty mug. Doesn't rate huge in the Zagat's guide. Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Such a good scene.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'll put that under of the three buckets. Most Spike. That felt like a real. Most Spike moment.

[Joanna Robinson]

So mine was my funniest moment. A bear. A bear. Undo it. My most Spike moment is the, like, sort of like the big bat. Watch your mouth, little girl. You should know better than to tempt the face that way. Because the big bat is back at this time. And then it's gets electrocuted and captured by the initiative. So that combination of, like, Spike being like, I'm the biggest, baddest. To be immediately undercut by this, like, physical comedy moment, to me feels like the Most Spike thing. Because, like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great one.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, Spike is so cool and will, like, show up to Sunnydale and run over the sign and just sort of like all the sort of stuff like that. But then, like, Drusilla leaves him for a chaos, you know, like, just like all this shit happens to him too, because he's also a loser. Like, he's so cool and he's also a loser.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's the best I really love. Because he was so fully incorporated in this really clever way into the Scooby circumstance in the stretch of episodes. How many times he has the opportunity to basically say a version of that where he's like, this is like the group of people who keeps forwarding my every movie. That's really wonderful. Yeah, I had a couple pangs nominees in my Most Spike category as well. Even though obviously my pick was from something blue with the mug and the straw. And that amazing line. Just the stretch when he's tied to the chair and he's like, I came to you in friendship.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, all right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Seething hatred. But I've got useful information and I feel like I'm being mistreated. The way he kind of is working his game. And then immediately, like, why don't I just say exactly what the thing is out loud in the span of two seconds? It was just really wonderful. And there's so Many great Spike moments with, like, food or drink or, you know, he needs the blood. But I think my favorite crowded field was. I wouldn't say no to a brandy. Just a small brandy. And he's, like, quiet in the back as they're arguing. Incredible stuff. And then they, you know, he's at the table and like, oh, lay off. You all had a fine meal. But me, an entire siege. You'd think one of you would bleed a little, just, like, lamenting his circumstances. So good. Did you have any other hottest Spike contenders for that bucket?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's from that same scene in Something Blue when. When Buffy is taunting him, right? They're talking about, like, Giles is like, until we're sure you're. Buffy's like, flaccid. Spike's like, you're one step away, missy. And Buffy goes, giles, help. He's going to scold me. And then he's just, like, growling and, like, going against the chains, trying to, like, kind of bite her, but also. And she's like. He's like, you have your Zagat's line. Yeah. And then she's. Look at my poor neck, all bare and tender and exposed. All that blood just pumping away. And Giles is like, oh, please. Like, Giles is like, get a room, essentially, you know? And Spike. Giles, make her stop. Like, it's very horny and funny at the same time. Really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, he's, like, lunging to try to get to her neck. Is incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everything with Buffy in Something Blue is incredible. I also thought it was pretty hot to watch him, you know, with the T shirt, like, in the tunneling stretch in our.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, all of his, like, working the dig in a corner sex life with Harmony is abusive and also extremely hot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also in terms of funny moments.

[Mallory Rubin]

Funny.

[Joanna Robinson]

Funny in conjunction with something disturbing is like in the Initiative when he attacks Willow in the dorm room. And you're like, jesus Christ. And it is, like, shot like a sexual assault scene. Like, it is, like, very harrowing. But then cut to. He cannot bite her. And they have this, like, genuinely very funny back and forth about, like, performance. And he's like, it's never happened before. And then she's like, it's me, isn't it? I'm not the kind of girl that men's want to bite. He's like, no, I thought about it. He's like. He's like, you're wearing that fuzzy pink number. You know what I mean? Like, it's a really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe you were nervous. I felt all right when it started.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's all really good. In that same episode, on the funniest front, when he again, Spike Harmony. Very fraught. But when he returns and he's like ripping off these nicknames for her. Her mentholated petite creme brulee. My little foam latte. My little mentholated pack of smokes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So good.

[Mallory Rubin]

That killed me. That was so funny. Oh, in harsh light of day. I loved when he's like, they're still trying to dig up and he's like, it's definitely the crypto. And I'm not keen on dialing into someone deceptive thing. And then in the Buffy. In the Buffy Spike fight scene, out in the light of day when he's like boasting, you know, sun beaming down in a nice non fatal way. Can't wait to see if I freckle

[Joanna Robinson]

also in something blue. When he's like. When they're talking about their wedding and he was like, register to Mr. And Mrs. Puppet. Big pile of dust.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's incredible. The Weetabix thing with the blood gives it a little texture. Just incredible. I liked it in A New man when he's moving out of Xander's and he's like taking the radio and Xander's like, what the fuck, dude? And Spike's like. And you're what? Shocked and disappointed?

[Joanna Robinson]

Evil.

[Mallory Rubin]

The evil. He's the best.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, he is the best. Also the. Again, another like Gifable. Perhaps opening credits. But definitely Gifable is like when he's tied to In. In Hush. When he's tied to Xander's chair and he just like flips him off. That's a iconic Spike moment. He's just genuinely the best.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's an incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

And one of my favorite TV characters and one of my favorite performances of all time.

[Mallory Rubin]

I hope he never goes away again.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would not spoil that for you. Okay. But speaking of going away again, I will spoil this. Best guest star.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is the last Ethan Rain episode. No, we never see him again. And so I can only assume the Initiative killed him. I don't know. Like, that's. I'm just choosing to believe the Initiative fucking killed Ethan Rain. This is the last Ethan Rain episode. Calamity. What the fuck?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolute calamity. No, I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Darth Vader. No, I had no idea. I'm despondent.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Robin Sachs, we honor you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. Well, he was my pick anyway. Why?

[Joanna Robinson]

I know there should be an Ethan Rain episode every single season. Yes, I agree. The fuck?

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, well, I have one more category today, where we can honor him once more, actually.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great stuff. Best. This is a new one. Best. College is hell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Metaphor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think, I think we've talked about all of it before, but like, you know, in general, Buffy struggling to adapt as Willow and Oz are like, in their element, you know, very effective. But my pick here is, is Kathy, in episodes one and two, your roommate is an actual demon needing to like. And I. My college roommates are like, to this day, my best friends in the world. So I got very lucky and I have a.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's the worst thing you ever did as a roommate, though? Like, what's the behavior where you're just sort of like, I wouldn't do that now if I were living with someone. I'll start.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, tell me this is not in college.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I think I got along very well with all of the people and I shared a room with someone every single year. Like, even we lived off campus. I like, shared. I slept in a twin bed and shared a room with. With a friend of mine all through college. But the. What was I going to say? Oh, in. When I left college, my first place that I lived in San Francisco, I once wrote a post it note from the point of view of the sponge.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Robinson]

Basically, I know this is like, I'm so embarrassed. Like, you can. I can tell the story because I know this is like one of the worst things I ever did being like, please, like, ring me out after you use me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, well, they are, they are breeding grounds for bacteria.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, you definitely need to do that. But also, you definitely don't need to write a. Post it from the point, like from the, in the voice of, of the sponge being like, ring me out or I'll get all manky if I pointed

[Mallory Rubin]

out way with this. I'm gonna try this at home with Adam. How hard is it to squeeze out the sponge? Sponge granted. Does he do all the dishes? He does. So do I get to comment? Probably not.

[Joanna Robinson]

But when you have to touch the sponge, that's my question.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't like to look at it and see and know and know that it's waterlogged.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just, at the time I did was directed at the guy that I was living with that I liked the least. But the other guy I lived with, who I like, adored, he was like, joanna, that was not the move. And I was like, oh. And he was like, this is terrible. And I, I was like, okay, I learned something.

[Mallory Rubin]

You are a. You're a creator, you're an artiste. And you were writing even then. Look at that.

[Joanna Robinson]

A creator discovering your craft. Yeah. Okay, now you have to share something you did. It doesn't have to be as genuinely terrible as the posted story question.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. So like freshman and sophomore year, I lived with Lena both years. Angel, Hottest person alive. Just an absolute dime. Gorgeous.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lena is an incredible name. She's the best name.

[Mallory Rubin]

We saw each other in LA when she was out here like a year or two ago, and I was like, you're still the most beautiful person I've ever seen in my life. I don't know that I ever did anything bad to her. She had a very vibrant story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just like she's incredibly hot.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is real.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would simply not eat a friend in the wild, I think.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then sophomore year, go home and write a.

[Joanna Robinson]

Post it to Adam and take a photo of it so that I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sophomore year. So Alison and Suzanne were roommates freshman and sophomore year on the same floor as us. And then I became very good friends with both of them and then kind of like forced them to become friends with each other. We're all still friends to this day. Book club members. So the three of us lived together junior year on South Campus. I don't know that anyone did anything really terrible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Then never mind. Let's just move on.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's not. It's not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Does Mallory remember how hot and nice her roommates were? That's not the prompt.

[Mallory Rubin]

We all had a. We had a nice house together. Alison and I went to London junior year. It was great. And scene.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you're one of Mallory's roommates, I'll

[Mallory Rubin]

tell you a dorm.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can email me at hobbiesandragons at gmail com.

[Mallory Rubin]

They have plenty of. Plenty of stories I'm trying to think of like, you know, what was everyone's like, sock on the door handle code and did everyone abide by a thing? I don't know. All right, this isn't anyone doing anything bad. It's just an embarrassing story. I'll share this with you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you. Bless you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so this was. Let me think about which the. Which side of. Which side of the room was my bed on? Okay, so this would have been freshman year. Can visualize it. Lena was not home. I was alone and I was asleep and I heard a noise and I got really scared and I was like, someone is in the room and I'm like going to stay as still as I possibly can and think, is there a way that I could like make a move for the door and run to Alison And Suzanne, who are across the hall. I'm panicking. I'm like. I'm trying to kind of maintain my breathing. I'm an asthmatic. Right. Like, I know Landa's not coming home. Like, she's out. She's at a party. I'm. I'm alone, and I'm mustering the courage to just turn and quickly make a move to the door. And I turn, and it is a balloon wrestling.

[Joanna Robinson]

Again, not a wrestling balloon.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And then. So that was fine.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will also say. That's a great story.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I will also say one time went socky bombing and threw up on my floor. And, like, really couldn't properly account for the laundry after that. If you would like that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I like that better than the rustling balloon. Thank you so much for that. Freshman year, we also broke into

[Mallory Rubin]

our

[Joanna Robinson]

friend Dan, who's now married to my freshman roommate Nicole. I presume they're still married. And we just stole a bunch of his stuff. And then we all dressed up as him, including his now wife, Nicole. And we all just. There's just photos of us just all wearing his clothing, and we stole his guitar, and we stole all this stuff. That's something we did. And also, we broke into our friend Raj's room, who married my other roommate. There's a lot of marriages that came out of that dorm floor. Married my other roommate, Emily. We broke into Raj's room and we cleaned it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Real girl prank stuff where we're like, we're gonna. And then, like, took a photo on his bed and now, like, clean room. And that is, like, a very cherished memory of mine. I don't know why we thought cleaning someone's not. It was just disgusting. And we cleaned it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I did always. That was a fun, you know, thing in college when you're going to someone else's room and you see what's there. I have a vivid memory of going to. His name shall remain private. I won't share it. And he had this, like, very visible box of ribbed condoms on his dresser top. And, like, you know, kind of clearly wanted everybody to know that he had them there because he was like.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's like, I'm ready, ladies.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm using condoms. Or, like, I can. I could use condoms. I was so. I was just, like, ribbed. And he's like. And my friend, we still all jug masks to the same. He's like, for her pleasure, Mallory could not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Could not have said for her pleasure. Swear to God.

[Mallory Rubin]

For her pleasure, Mallory. The way he said it, I Was like, no college. What a special time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Last but not least, on the college as hell metaphor, I will just add, what if the ROTC were like, a very militarized secret cabal of, you know, monster hunters or something like that?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Roommates snoring in the sleep, cutting toenails onto the floor, labeling the eggs one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What if the ROTC were a shadow cabal, too? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, great. Funniest moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have a clip.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know you do. Let's. Let's watch it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Foreign.

[Joanna Robinson]

If you're listening to this instead of watching it, this is the aforementioned Buffy jacking off slash stak. Stabbing from Hush Moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Xander miming the. The boobies after Willow was saying, like, hearts. Also hysterical. But miming a steak and everybody thinking that you're.

[Joanna Robinson]

What if we jack them off?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yeah. How will we beat the gentleman? What if we just, like, jack them off? Incredible stuff. The cuts to everybody's faces.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, just.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the music.

[Mallory Rubin]

Perfect.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Perfect.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also have a clip. Let's play it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spike and I are getting married.

[Joanna Robinson]

How?

[Mallory Rubin]

What? How?

[Joanna Robinson]

Three excellent questions.

[Mallory Rubin]

What are you looking at? The man I love. Can I be blind, too?

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I be blind, too? Is the reason for that clip. But, like. Like, the three question thing is really funny, but.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. I will say incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

A bear. Bear. You made a bear. Undo it. And can I be blind, too? Are, like, two of my most treasured jokes from this season. I think they're so good.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's so funny. I also, like, in that same stretch, when Giles is, you know, he's losing his sight, but he's still, through the power of sound and proximity, bearing witness.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I can hear that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. He's like, you know, here's that. Because Spike doesn't want Buffy to mention Angel. And Buffy's like, when you're making sweet love to me, are you going to think of Drew and Chels, like, knocking over a scotch and kissing? And he's like, I can hear the smacking. Stop that right now. That's all just great. Oh, man. This is where the Klimt vs Monet dorm room poster tally. Certainly. That was hysterical. Really great. The Scoobies, their amazement that Giles has a TV and his, like, public television.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Gotta admit, a little disappointed. Oz says. And then Willow's like, maybe it doesn't work. It's like art. Sandra turns it on. On. Look, everyone, we have vital work to do. Okay? Yeah, Jealous as a TV is a really, really good one, I will say. Also, Oz revealing his God, Halloween Costume. When we get Willow's Joan of Arc thing, close personal relationship with God. And then he just has the, like, God name tag costume.

[Mallory Rubin]

Xander's reaction to that, because he's like, I wish I'd thought of that before I put down this deposit. Really good. Oh, on the. On the Giles. Xander front, too. I liked I texted you about this, but when in the Initiative, he's in Xander's basement pad and snacking and there's an open already. Just open. No chip clip bag of Doritos. And Giles picks it up and takes a bite and he's like. And puts it down. And, you know, it's hysterical, but it's like, is it because he thinks he's never had a Dorito before and he thinks it's revolting? Doritos are delicious. Or because it's been open and stale? But then when Xander's mom calls from downstairs like, do you want any fruit punch? And you think Giles is gonna be like, fuck that Dorito. Fuck your mom's fruit punch. And he's like, is it raspberry? This is great. I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Buffy knocking Oz and Xander's head together in living conditions. Extremely good stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very good.

[Joanna Robinson]

The actual size gag and fear itself. Incredibly good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Beer bad. Here it is. It belongs in this category. When Giles is giving Xander shit for serving Buffy beer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then Xander, like, refers to Giles's Ripper days as Electric Kool Aid Funky Satan Groove. Like, who spent all the 60s in electric Kool Aid Funky Satan Groove?

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then Giles is like, it was the 70s, actually.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's amazing. But, like, I thought Electric Kool Aid Funky Satan Groove was very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Love it. How about you don't have a ricer? All of the pinks?

[Joanna Robinson]

Problematic episode. Very extremely funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do have amusing moments I have.

[Joanna Robinson]

When Giles says, well, that's good, but this is why I think we should all keep a level head in this. And Willow says, and I happen to think mine is the level head and yours is the one things would roll off of. Is very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

When Anya shows up with a near death Xander, and it's a very intense circumstance and moment. And Buffy's just like, you didn't bring rolls? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Buffy's whole like, I gotta have the perfect Thanksgiving shit is so good. And then when angel shows up and he grabs Willow and Willow's like, ooh, angel, you're evil. You're evil again. He's like, I'm not evil. I'm here to help Buffy. It's very, very good.

[Mallory Rubin]

I Also, love when Willow wonders if there's a spell that could help to rectify this situation. And she's like, there was a potion. Grabs it. Sage, salt, onion. And Buffy's like, that's a stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very amusing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Thanks. Tough episode, in many ways, about the Chumash, we honor you. But also just like. And, like, I think, in their 1999 way, really, like, trying by, like, giving Willow the voice of, like, you know, blah, blah. But then also the depiction of the Chumash is just undercutting whatever their intention was. So maybe that should have been the most 1990 thing of this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Last time to mention Ethan, I guess.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. Can I tell you how hard I laughed because Giles is, like, again, trying to contribute. So he's like, oh, there's a thing happening. Let's go. We don't need buffalo. Xander, Willow, come on. Right? And they go into the crypt. And he's looking. He's like, ah, man. Maybe the Initiative got here first. So he leaves, and then Ethan emerges from the shadows to, like, speech him to monologue. Yeah. And then Giles pokes his head back in. He's like, is someone. Someone there? Ethan's like, huh, Bugger. I thought you'd gone. It was hysterical. And in that same episode, in the great Spike and Giles in the car sequence, you know, they've come to their arrangement. I did Google the inflation of what would.

[Joanna Robinson]

$200.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's not very much. Spike could have asked for more, which obviously is the joke. And Spike is like, you know, he's looking in the mirrors and he's, like, picked up a tail. Giles is like, it's just a little one. So I sit. Incredible. It's a funny stretch of episodes.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really. I really think season four is, like, among the funniest. It just doesn't have that balance of, like, the funny and the poignant. Which brings us to our last category, which is most emotional moment, which is usually full of opportunities, but it's really tough here, so I'm gonna give it to. What I think is really good in the harsh light of day is all of the angel parallels, right? Like, Buffy wakes up alone.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he's back. But, you know, it's just like, once again, like she sleeps with someone. And then there is this abandonment which is, you know, underlined for her, and fear itself. And by Spike in harsh light of day and. And all this sort of stuff like that. But it's just like, all those, like, traces of angel and traces of Surprise and innocence that. That trauma that still lingers with Buffy here, I thought was, you know, like, again, like, Parker is a really good. He looks, I think, actually more like Xander than he looks like Angel. But it really does. It is this, like, you know, what if angel but an ordinary dude just sucks? And also, I know now we're straying for most emotional moment. But, like. Like, I will say in Beer Bad, when Willow's talking to Parker and he's, like, feeding her the lines, and then she's like, did you really think I'd fall for that?

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, really good.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really good Willow moment there on the parallels front right down to the red sheets.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, the red sheets. Oh, I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have, like, a very small. Maybe this will even seem strange as a selection. But it did really hit me. And it felt like, okay, yeah, I've had moments like that. People have moments like that. And it. So it made me feel very. Just like, connected to reflecting on the passage of time back in. Not a great episode. 11 doomed after. They're leaving because they've been walking through the schools of their dilapidated high school. Still there, right? And then they're walking out, they're leaving. And Xander's like, it's weird being back, isn't it? And Willow says, yeah, everything seems so small. Like, how many moments have you. I remember so vividly, like, the first time I went back to, like, my elementary school, when I was in middle or high school, or, like, camp, you know, the day camp I went to when I was a kid. And I'm like, in my mind, this was gigantic. Or, like, driving. We lived in a different house. And I remember, like, going into a neighborhood that we lived in when I was really little. And in my mind, I was like. I remember because it was, like, the last house that my parents lived in together before the. Before the. And I have these memories in my mind of my dad, like, under this tree, this willow tree, like, throwing a ball near. And it was gigantic. In my mind, I'm like, oh, my God, this is all so small. So that's just really. I like moments like that where, like, we have moved into a different phase of your life. And these things that take on this, like, Titanic proportion in the scape of your memory, like, that's not what they were, but they feel that way to you. So it was one. One beat, but it. I thought that hit.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's season four, Part one. It's a great pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't wait for part two.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Mirad has some terrible shit and also some great returning faces that we're very excited to see that we wanted to make sure we had space to feature. So very exciting. I'm pretty sure most people who are listening to or watching this have already seen the back half of season four, but just in case you haven't, I will keep that vague. But I'm excited for. There's some, like, bangers in the back half and then there's also also some of the worst shit that Buffy has to offer. So overall, mixed bag situation. Thank you, Mallory Rubin.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you, my darling, darling Angel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you to Carlos Shiroga for all of his work on this episode. Always to Jacob and the entire Sycamore team for all of their troubleshooting on Incredible Jacob. Ct. Yeah, ct, everyone. Just everyone here is really coming through. And we'll be back with part two with some mall stuff. That's right, with some Christopher Nolan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

What a time to be us. See you soon.

[Mallory Rubin]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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