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- [00:00]
Mallory Rubin
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Joanna Robinson
Hello. Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That is Mallory Rubin. It is season four, part two of Buffy and guess what? Giles has an acoustic guitar. I repeat, Giles has an acoustic guitar. Mally Rubin, how you doing?
- [00:21]
Mallory Rubin
To quote Buffy, you get Fang, I'll get horny.
- [00:27]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, my God. Are you mentally prepared to talk about all of the horny Giles moments in the back half of season four of Buffett Vampire Slayer?
- [00:34]
Mallory Rubin
Yes, I am, actually.
- [00:36]
Joanna Robinson
Guess what? We'll enumerate them all right after this.
- [00:40]
Mallory Rubin
I sold my car in Carvana last night.
- [00:42]
Joanna Robinson
Well, that's cool.
- [00:42]
Mallory Rubin
No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.
- [00:57]
Joanna Robinson
Wow.
- [00:58]
Mallory Rubin
You need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.
- [01:10]
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- [01:59]
Joanna Robinson
All right, so this is part two of season four of Buffy. The Buffy rewatch continues to pace. I got the predictable she can only be herself text from Mallory Rubin last night where she was like, sad. It's gonna be over in a couple seasons. I mean, you still have like what, 60 episodes of Buffy still to watch, So I think you'll be okay. But yeah, we're. We're past the midway at this point.
- [02:26]
Mallory Rubin
We are. We're past the midway point. I mean, I'm pre grieving morning. Then you got a text within 10 seconds of that one that was like, maybe I'll just watch angel season one next week.
- [02:38]
Joanna Robinson
She's like, maybe I'll just watch all of angel because she's an absolute maniac. Boy, we did get mixed responses from our listeners about whether or not you should. It didn't seem like there was a consensus. So as someone who's constantly anxious about your work life balance, I don't think you should rewatch all of Buffy. But as we were talking last night, it is, you know, as we'll get into some of the Faith episodes in the back half of season four of Buffy, the crossover stuff does start to feel a little bit more onerous than it did at the beginning of the season. So I understand why you were like, what am I missing? What happened when Buffy went to Los Angeles, et cetera. So I get it.
- [03:14]
Mallory Rubin
Yes, I felt the end. Previously on Angel. Will really activated my OCD in a major way. And of course, I had previously watched this entire season in full, but sitting down to do the prep and revisiting the episodes, I was like, man. And also, we had just talked about it in the part one pod. Should I. Should I be dipping into Angel? I still feel like just. And I consulted Carlos on whether he had just gone directly to the relevant angel episodes or watched it all. So trying to get feedback from all parties. Obviously, you were my guide in all things Buffy and frankly, all things life. And so I defer to your wisdom. I felt that, like, oh, my goodness, what am I missing? Will I be able to carry on and appreciate this in full if I'm not also watching 22 episodes of angel in parallel with every 22 episode Buffy season? But we'll see. We'll see how it goes.
- [04:06]
Joanna Robinson
I do think, like, I do think you could get through this season if you just wanted to watch the harsh Light of Day crossover, the Pangs crossover. And then there's like a. Basically, what you could intuit, there's a two parter faith arc on angel that happens after the two parter faith arc on season four. So if you watch those four episodes, I think that's all you need. But I feel like you're physically engaged on that. So. Wow. All right, so we're not gonna talk about angel necessarily, but we're here to talk about the second half of Buffy. I've skipped the part where I tell you what else we're talking about on this feed. I'll just do it right now. By the time this episode drops, we will have recorded our. We haven't really figured out what it is. An ode to Mal of some kind. Mal, the Sith Lord extraordinaire who hates a shirt and loves to sneer and monologue, is the subject of a new animated Star wars show. And we will be just Talking about him as a character, why we love him. That's right. This is our job and we love to do it. So that is what's happening. Also, as we've teased a couple times, if we can forget, not forget to remember to do it, we will be doing a memento podcast sometime soon. It keeps moving, but we'll find it. We'll find it eventually. I've tattooed it somewhere on my body, so don't worry about it. Anything else you want to tease that's upcoming or, you know, or if not, how can folks keep track of everything we got going on?
- [05:34]
Mallory Rubin
I mean, the thing I'm most excited to tease that's upcoming is your move to Los Angeles, which is mere days away and I'm traveling up to the bay. You're coming down to L. A. We're all over the place. We're recording this before we recorded the Mall Pod that will have aired before this. It's a. It's a wild and wacky few days here in terms of timeline, continuity, but I'm thrilled to be. To be with you and gazing into your eyes every day. Before long, I didn't remember how to get my home recording set up going before this very podcast. That was a little mini adventure for all of us. And, you know, what else will we be potting about? Lots of stuff. So here's what I would recommend. I'd recommend that everybody follow the pod, Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to this. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify. Unbelievable. You can also follow the Ringerverse YouTube channel and watch our full video episodes there. You can see the full video episodes of the Midnight Boys. Pew. Pew. While you're at it, follow us on social. We have new House of R Instagram and TikTok handles at House of Our Pod. That's a delight. We're having fun over there. Come join us. And. And while you're at it, send us your emails. The inbox is always open hobbitsanddragons gmail.com. send us your thoughts on our ongoing Christopher Nolan rewatch on how much Angel I should watch and when on Buffy Season five, because those pods aren't going to be far away. We're going to dive into that soon, so that's exciting.
- [06:55]
Joanna Robinson
I know.
- [06:56]
Mallory Rubin
Mall, anything, Everything. That's all I got. Back to you in the studio.
- [07:03]
Joanna Robinson
Not in the studio. If you're watching this on video, I think I should say, yeah, this is the. I mean, it's Already slightly dismantled. But this is the last time you'll see this setup behind me. This is it. This is farewell to chronologically.
- [07:14]
Mallory Rubin
That's right. I'll see it tomorrow when we report tomorrow. That airs before this one.
- [07:20]
Joanna Robinson
But chronologically, this is the last time I'll be in this office. So thank you, Gray Walls. You did your best. And I'll be in studio for the most part. Unless both of us get the plague again or something like that.
- [07:32]
Mallory Rubin
We get sick a lot. We'll definitely be recording from our respective homes occasionally. My question is, will I still, in your new setup, be able to occasionally see Bug come in behind you and roll around on the floor? Good. That's all I need.
- [07:43]
Joanna Robinson
You better believe it. All right, what are we covering today? We already mentioned some spoilers. Just in case this is helpful at all. Here's a spoiler warning. We're talking about season four, episode 13, the ion team. Roll your eyes. Groan. It's the initiative through episode 22, Restless. A very strange, Strange and unusual season finale for Buffy. A kind of sort of like a very special episode of Buffy that's, like, tacked on to the end of the season is sort of what Restless feels like. I'm excited to talk to you about that. So that is the I and team. Goodbye, Iowa. This year's Girl. Who are you? Superstar. Where the Wild Things Are, New Moon Rising. The Yoko Factor, Primeval and Restless. So many two parters in this stretch here. It's very like Doctor Who Y kind of set up here. Anything else you want to say before we get to sort of our opening snapshot Now?
- [08:32]
Mallory Rubin
I'm excited to dive in.
- [08:33]
Joanna Robinson
Let's do it. Buffy Season four. Okay, so something that we had talked about in our Part one is I promised you I would get my ducks in a row about sort of what the initial plan for the season was versus what we got. Because we both agree that the Initiative as a plot line is not really a stunner. And sort of what happened with the Big Bad and all of that this season. So there are.
- [09:01]
Mallory Rubin
There is.
- [09:02]
Joanna Robinson
The answer is. There isn't like, a clear, clear answer because there's some, like, conflicting reports. But what Lindsey Krause, who played Professor Maggie Walsh, said on my pal Jenny and Kristen's podcast, Buffering Podcast only a couple years ago was like, contrary to popular belief, I did not ask to leave Buffy mid season. That was sort of the story that went around for a while. Two weeks before I was killed off, Joss called me and was like, we're going to Kill you off. So, like, that was. She was like, that was not my call to make. They decided they didn't want me. Here's a Marty Knox in quote from. I think around is when she gave this quote to Entertainment Weekly. She said about Professor Maggie Walsh potentially being the big bad of season four. She said there were a lot of things that we were gonna do and never did in season four. Maggie was gonna be much more of a mother figure for Riley. Introduced him to another girl to lure him away from Buffy. We thought it would create some Shakespearean jealousy. And then we went, eh, forget it. But most of the changes throughout the series have had to do with actors coming and going. We had a lot more planned for Seth Green, for example, but his departure to do films opened the door for Tara, which is something we never expected. And there would have been far more Angel, Buffy angst. He hadn't gotten his own show. So, like, is that appealing to you? This idea of like. Doug Petrie, another Buffy writer, has said it was always their plan to have Adam kill Maggie. He did not in that interview say when he was going to do that. So, like, if this sort of like Frankenstein's monster mother son dynamic as paralleled with Riley and Adam, could have maybe gone through the back half of the season and then Adam kills her and it's still just like Adam van Buffy and the combined forces at the end. That's a possibility. But, like, there is no clear, clean, clean answer available in sourceable quotes from people who worked on the show. There are plenty of theories, but nothing clean. What does any of these pseudo answers, what do they do for you, Mallory?
- [10:53]
Mallory Rubin
I don't know. It's interesting because, like, we started to get into in our season 4 part 1 pod last week and I think is even more keenly felt in this back half of the season, which is like very Initiative. Adam Riley's crisis of faith about his role in the Initiative centric. I think that a lot of the, like, questions and themes and ideas are interesting, but the execution leaves me wanting. And I think there are like, in season four, across season four, you know, particularly in the first half on the college front when we're in, like, there's barely any College in these 10 episodes. It's almost like incidental that they're at college, though. There's a very core thematic aspect to what does it mean to move from school to college in terms of growing apart for people that will come into play. But it's really rooted around the Initiative. And so would certain tweaks like that on the timing front, have made things more effective or impactful. I think it's possible. At the end of the day, I think that this is just, like, not as compelling as the big bads who came before. Whether that's, like, something, you know, as wonderful as the Mayor and everything that happens with Faith or the Master or, of course, angel and to Angelus and Spike and Drusilla. And I think that the beginning of these episodes that we're talking about today, something happens that is quite, I think, emblematic of this. Right on the. Like, this is intriguing and interesting. Would it have been more effective over a different. If it had been dispersed over a different period of time? I don't know. Buffy going kind of all in on the initiative and having these moments with Willow of like, wait, don't you think we should be asking more questions? The Giles, don't you think we should be asking more questions? Especially because part of what makes the end of season three such a absolute wallop in the best possible way is graduation in more than one form. Buffy deciding to leave the Watchers castle behind. Right. Like, the idea that what Buffy is doing as the Slayer, what the Scoobies are doing as a unit, the idea of being a part of something larger is not the problem, but the idea of letting these kind of, like, shadowy power figures tell you what to do, is in conflict in some way with how Buffy lives, which, like, we get to hear kind of brought to the fore again at the end and restless. When Buffy confronts the. The first Slayer and is like, I'm not alone, actually. Right. So I think there's something so tantalizing about putting Buffy right back in a circumstance, in part because she's like, I'm interested in doing this with my. My boyfriend, and Riley and I get to, like, kick ass together, and we can be out there fighting demons together. That's conceptually compelling. But I, I, When, When Buffy was back there, I found myself so firmly rooted. And again, it's like, so quick that it all falls apart. And the com cam, like, you know, you don't know what a Slayer is moment is. Like, that happens really fast in these stretch of episodes. But when Willow is like, what's going on here? I'm so firmly rooted in the Willow camp there that I don't think I would have wanted it to last longer. Actually.
- [13:57]
Joanna Robinson
I think it is interesting because, like, I think I've seen a lot of people interpret Riley's. Again, if Riley were a more compelling character, this would be interesting. But, like, Riley's journey through blind faith in an institution to this, like, I'm an anarchist like, reaction that he has later or whatever as sort of like corn fed Iowa boy goes to college and sort of breaks from some religious indoctrination or something like that into sort of questioning larger authorities whether or not you want to see as like, overtly the church or something else, but just sort of like the idea of like, corn fed Iowa, used to existing inside of a system, goes to school in California and is like, whoa, has his mind expanded. And the idea that, like, Buffy for a second is like, hey, maybe I'll join this church with my boyfriend or something like that is inside of that institution always asking questions. Like, Willow and Giles are like, let's ask more questions in general. But once she. As soon as Buffy's inside the door, she's asking questions that Riley and the rest of them in Graham have, like, never asked. Right. And she's the one who's like, in that great shot of her sitting amidst all of the commandos of their briefing in her pink halter that she's worn patrolling many times, like, just like, sticks out like a. Like a sore thumb. It's a great visual. So I like those layers, though, of just sort of like Buffy asking questions, but not asking the bigger picture, even some of the bigger picture questions that a Willow and Giles are asking. And also. Sorry, the last thing I'll say about this is like, so much of the emotional. Yes, in theory, the emotional thrust of the final couple episodes are. Buffy's greatest strength as a slayer is her friends, is the fact that she's not one girl in all the world, but part of a team and a family. And they've explored that before, but this is even more overt, et cetera, et cetera. Like, all of that is interesting, but a lot of the back half is about Riley's emotional journey. It's Riley's choice and it's Riley's agitation and disillusion and all sorts like that. And I'm just like, A, not compelled by him. And B, I. I want this show to be about Buffy, you know, at the end of the day, so.
- [16:11]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, exactly. I think that that's, that's. That's.
- [16:15]
Joanna Robinson
That's the.
- [16:15]
Mallory Rubin
The main crux of it for me as well is like, again, I like when Buffy. It feels human to me to. To make this big declaration about your life and then sort of be compelled back into another version of that thing. I think that's. That's human. That's normal. I agree with you that the Speed and haste with which Buffy wants inside those doors is like. Like, what's going on here exactly feels right and interesting. I don't think that Buffy leaving the Watchers Council at the end of season three means that for the rest of time and perpetuity, she would never be or should never be interested in, like, participating in a larger force. I think that the fact that so much of Buffy's storyline in the back half of this season is tied up in Riley's journey, Adam and the Initiative is just a little bit less compelling because we're watching some really wonderful stuff, I think, with Anya and Xander and Willow and Tara and Giles. And they're in part because they're like, a little bit on the outside of that looking in. I do think that the, like, I've had some sort of awakening about the differences and entwinements in, like, being a follower or being a leader. And the way that Buffy is then kind of imparting that wisdom and helping somebody else have the scales fall off of their eyes from the through, the wisdom that she has learned, like, not just because someone else told her, but from her firsthand experience, is interesting. Riley's just not an interesting enough character to carry 10 episodes of that as a journey. I think, like, the overall connection, and this is obviously not just true with the back half of the season. This is true for Buffy writ large and is part of what's so compelling about it. But this is like a very identity driven stretch of story and I love that. And I think, again, that's emblematic of, like, you have even something like Jonathan's return, obviously. Giles, like, what role do I have? Willow and Tara, Spike, you know, could I be a Scooby? Do I want to be Faith coming back? Buffy. But then, like, Adam and Riley, so much of the way their stories are positioned, Riley's crisis of Faith and Adam, like, I am the one with this awareness about what it means to be alive in a way that nobody else, like, possesses. There's a version of that that would be, like, really, I think, scintillating. This idea of being pieced together from other bits of humanity and demons and machine. And then what does that make you and what do you do with that insight? Like, I like that.
- [18:46]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Some boys, some Boy Scouts in the mix there. Some Boy Scouts.
- [18:50]
Mallory Rubin
No, I agree, I submit, I agree
- [18:53]
Joanna Robinson
that, like, parts of conceptually, as you said from the beginning, conceptually, this is interesting. Adam is such a stultifyingly dull character, in my view, that even when you pair him with Spike, towards the end of the season. It doesn't even. Like, they put him with the biggest charisma bomb they had in the cast. And it's still just like another Adam story. One other thing I want to say, and we got some emails and some comments about this, is like, there's a strong rumor, a fan theory, that the character of Sunday, who we meet in the first episode, was initially, their idea was to make her a slayer who had been turned into a vampire, a slay pire, and have her as, like, a longer antagonist for Buffy, and then scrap that. There is no concrete sourcing I can find for that at all. Like, there have been podcasters who have said on their podcast, well, Joss Whedon said, and then people report that as fact, but they do not have quotes from Joss. And so just sort of like, there are no quotes about this. But as people are chewing this idea over, they're like, it could be that people thought that was, you know, if that was an idea they had. And again, I have no confirmation it was, but if that was an idea they had, is that an idea that's too close to Faith, like, right off the back of Faith to be, like, another sort of Slayer, Slayer v Slayer idea? Something. I will say it's not about the slay pyre concept, but, like, I can see the germs of a later. Really well done Big Bad in the Sunday character. So I think it's possible that, like, with Sunday, they were like, there's something here about this sort of like, girly energy versus girly energy that we haven't really, you know, because it's just sort of like Buffy's girly energy versus, like, big bad men and all this sort of stuff like that. So it's sort of like, what if it's like Buffy facing off against someone who's, like, a little bit more her coded? What would that look like? That's something that the show will explore. You know, something that's interesting. Okay, you mentioned what's interesting going on elsewhere around the Initiative and Adam, and you mentioned Xander and Anya. And I just, you know, we had briefly touched upon this in Part one, this idea of, like, I think this might be Xander's best scene overall. I'm not going to ask you to comment on that, because obviously you haven't seen 567 yet, but I do. And I was trying to figure out why I think that is. And I think, you know, there's a couple things at play here. First of all, being paired with Anya, Emma caulfield which is not, you know, unique to the season, but, like, being paired with Emma Caulfield as a scene partner is going to just sort of, like, boost anyone's Q rating, in my view. Like, it's just like, it's so good. She's so good with everyone. When they put her and Spike together in this background this season, you're just sort of, like, electric. We're living, right? So there's that. There's also, like, the toxic Xander. I hate angel with such a, like, toxic male fiery passion stuff is largely absent from the season, except it comes roaring back in the Yoko factor in a way that I'm just sort of like, oh, right, this is a Xander I don't like when the premise of that entire episode, the Yoke effector, is Spike is sowing seeds of discord among the Scoobies. Except he doesn't even have to do it with the Riley Buffy thing because Xander got there first, and Xander just did it on his own without being part of the villain plot. So I was just sort of like, yeah, that's the Xander stuff that was really present in the first three seasons that is not here for most of the season. And that is, like, is really refreshing. So I just think that they figured out. There's a lot they didn't figure out with Xander. As you mentioned, he and Giles are both like, who am I if I'm not a watcher? Who am I if I'm not a classmate of Willow and Buffy? Willow saying, who am I if I'm not straight? You know, Riley's saying, who am I if I'm not a member of the initiative? All that sort of like, who am I without this larger definition to me, Spike, who am I if I'm not able to suck blood, et cetera.
- [22:51]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah.
- [22:52]
Joanna Robinson
But with Xander, there's something, like, temperamentally that I think they really figured out this season. What do you any, any thoughts without being able to comment on, on 5, 6, 7, that you want to add here?
- [23:01]
Mallory Rubin
I just, Yeah, I love the Xander season. I, I, I really agree. I think it's, like, so compelling in the highs and the lows. I think he feels simultaneously very, like, assured as a character and insecure as a person, which is a great combo, you know, and the ways in which he is, like, navigating his own anxiety about his place in the world feels, I think, very true to the Xander Harris that we have spent time with. And also to just, like, maybe how you would be navigating that phase of your life if you went from high school into what should be the college years. And your friends go off not only to college, but to college together, and you're not there, but you're close enough to be reminded every minute of every day that you're not there. And you actually have this, like, pretty amazingly compelling relationship with this smoke show who's obsessed with you. But you're also, like, constantly having to remind her in plain view of other people. Like, this is a private moment and this is like, you know, et cetera. It's just. It's such a great blend of, you know, that classic Xander mix of human. Of the humanity, the humor, the heart, all of it. I think that the vulnerability that we see from Xander, and I think the moments in the prior seasons where he really made big mistakes and aired and behaved badly. I, as we talked about on those pods, was often disappointed by him or frustrated, but also had enough of a germ of understanding of how he could be moved to behave that way. I think in this stretch, something after Spike is. Has. Has worked his manipulation, right, and has incepted all of them. And we see the way that each of them responds to that. And Xander's is to just, like. It's just to be bowled over, like, unable to get out of bed because he's like, these people, like, who are the most important thing in the world to me, don't need me. You know, I thought it was like. And then Anya coming in in that sequence, and like, she is. I basically couldn't keep. You know, we have an Anya category again today. And I was like, it's gonna be hard to keep this, like, under 20 candidates. Like, it's just such an incredible stretch of episodes from her.
- [25:16]
Joanna Robinson
The.
- [25:16]
Mallory Rubin
She's hysterical. She. She kills me, like, every time. I'm just cackling so much my ribs hurt. She's smart, she's sharp, she's sexy, she's blunt, she's direct. All of it.
- [25:28]
Joanna Robinson
The.
- [25:28]
Mallory Rubin
The. The depth of, like, love and comfort in that moment when she's just like, you know, you're a good person and a good boyfriend and I'm in love with you. Like, what they think of you shouldn't matter. And of course, it matters more than anything in the world because they' the closest people to him. But it's just. I don't know, it felt like such an authentic evolution of a relationship for them. So I really, really love that. But then it's like, still Xander. So you go into the dreamscapes of Restless, and he's like, joyce. Joyce wants to Willow and Willow or hook it up in the back of my ice cream truck. Like, it's just the full Xander experience, but really well calibrated. So I, I, I quite enjoyed it.
- [26:09]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I love, also I love that scene, like, when she, you know, snuggles him and says, like, you're a good boyfriend. I love you. But also that it opens with her just, like, lifting up the quilt and, like, the eyebrow raise when she sees his, his dick under the COVID And she's like, you know, you can't go down to the unemployment office like that. They won't even interview you if you're naked. Like, she's just, she's perfect all the time.
- [26:30]
Mallory Rubin
She's amazing.
- [26:31]
Joanna Robinson
I love her.
- [26:31]
Mallory Rubin
Me too.
- [26:32]
Joanna Robinson
All right, I want to do a quick Tara check in with you. I mentioned sort of offhandedly on the POD last week that I'm not a huge Tara fan. This really seemed to perturb people, and I understand why, because the Venn diagram of Joanna's interests of, like, which stuff go. And like, queer representation, like, Tara's smack dab at the center of it. Plus, you know, Miss Kitty Fantastico is here. You know, there's a cat involved. Like, you know, it should be very much my shit. And I will say, when I first watched the show, and I think largely because there was just so little representation for queer couples in this way, I was really into the Willow and Tara stuff. I think, you know, there's a part of me that would always feel a
- [27:09]
Mallory Rubin
little
- [27:11]
Joanna Robinson
touchy about it because I love Oz so much and I really don't like, you know, and because I didn't watch season four live, it was like, Oz is just, like, gone. And I had to, like, go back and figure out why. So, like, that's a whole thing. But I think letting people know that in 2000, when the Tara and Willow stuff is kicking off, there was so little representation. And even though Tara and Willow are here on this and unequivocally a couple, that is the text of the show. We don't get to see them kissing. We see them say I love you before we see them kiss. Because the network said they couldn't kiss. Right? So you've got these, like, you've got the sex spells, essentially, or you've got the, like, cutaway in Xander's dream, but,
- [27:56]
Mallory Rubin
like, or blowing out the candle and cutting black.
- [28:00]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, but these characters are not allowed to kiss on television. That's how, that's how groundbreaking this storyline was. Right? You have my so called life, Ryan Phillippe on the soaps. You've got Jack on Dawson's Creek, you know, like. But this is just, like, very. You know, especially for women. Like, this is. This is just like a huge. So, like, in that way, Tara and Willow will always be hugely important for me in terms of what I did for television. And Tara as this sort of, like, shy, stuttering character, I do think is interesting. I think Amber Benson's like, a very compellingly beautiful person. I just don't know that. I think she's acting at the caliber of everyone around her. And again, you know, you're just meeting her yet. We'll have some more time to dig into Tara, but what are your first impressions? How are you feeling about her?
- [28:53]
Mallory Rubin
I'm a big fan so far. I know it's one season for me. I actually don't know how long Tara will be around. As we've mentioned before on prior pods, there are some things I do know about the future of the show and certain characters and much that is undiscovered country for me. So I don't know how long Tara will be around, but I hope it's for a while. And I'm really enjoying the Tara Willow relationship and their respective journeys of discovery. And just, like, there's such a tenderness with Tara as a character and inside of that relationship. And I'm so invested in Willow that I think, like, what she is learning about herself and the way that she is, you know, learning to understand. And it'll come up in another category. So when we get to our superlatives today, so I won't step on it here, but, like, one of the moments that I loved so much in these episodes is in Oz's return in New Moon Rising, when there are a number of great Willow Tara conversations in that episode, but one of the ones that just hit me so hard was Tara
- [29:58]
Joanna Robinson
saying, like,
- [30:01]
Mallory Rubin
you know, I know. I know what Oz means to you and Will is like, how can you and I don't, you know, and so I just found all of that, like, very powerful and moving Tara is. I think that all of the aspects of her character that I've seen so far, the sort of, like, gentleness and the quiet, there's something about the way she encourages Willow and her magic and that they encourage each other that is very, like, empowering and just nurturing. And I love that as something in a romantic partner and a friend and someone you're pursuing, like a. A pursuit. A pursuit with pursuing a pursuit. Professional podcaster here, folks.
- [30:42]
Joanna Robinson
Signs of portents, Signs of portents.
- [30:44]
Mallory Rubin
Portents and signs. The way in the. The Wicca group meeting with the other students that not only right away, we. We feel that synchronicity between Willow and Tara as people who are connected to this magic and to the idea of. Of being a witch and the role of. Of magic in their lives that is distinct from the other people who show up for some completely, like, lesser reason, maybe the, the social hang or the kind of like, whatever, but beyond just that connection that it forges right away between the two of them. I loved what it told us about Tara. You know, the way that the kind of like, mean girl in the. Did you have something to say? And then Tara recedes and is shy. And so it shows us the shyness. But more than that, and this is about, like, her magic as a witch. You know, you mentioned the stutter, her sexuality, and navigating that. You wonder right away, like, how many times and how many moments in Tara's life here at Sunnydale, but in all the years before, has she been surrounded by a group of people who don't see her clearly and accept her for who she is or embrace her for who she is. So I just feel very tenderly toward her and like, I thought that the kind of graciousness and generosity with which she navigated Oz's return was, like, pretty amazing and that not a lot of people on this show or in any walk of life would have been able to be that giving to another person. So I'm a fan so far. I'm excited to see. And of course, she's a cat lover, so, you know, harrowing for me to confront that. Willow was like, team, team dog. I love dogs. I love all animals. But then, wonderful to see how quickly Willow was just absolutely captivated by the cat. So, yeah, I'm a fan. I feel protective of Tara and of their relationship, and I'm excited to see where it goes.
- [32:38]
Joanna Robinson
Any theories or, you know, there's a few hints of something else going on with Tara this season. Any theories kicking around that.
- [32:45]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, so I was gonna ask you about. There's the, like, this kind of sabotaging of the spell moment, which when I watched the first time, season four, I was like, wait, did I miss when they closed the loop on that? And then when I rewatched it, I was like, I don't believe that we got clarity on that, at least inside of this season. So sometimes, especially in like a 22 episode season of a show, things happen and maybe they remain open loops. But that struck me as something that we will return to at a certain point. So because that's early in their relationship, initially on my first watch, I was like, should I be on my guard with Tara? But then that very quickly faded as a question or concern for me. It just didn't seem like Tara was being presented in any way outside of that one moment of putting the dust under her bed like a character we should be doubting and somebody who might be positioned as having impure intentions. So could I be wrong? Maybe. But I don't think it's setting up some sort of Tara's actually bad reveal. What struck me as more likely, especially on a rewatch, having spent more time with Tara, is like, either that something about the specifics of the spell they're working in that moment, looking for the demonic energy, like, made her nervous that she had a specific concern about the power of that spell. I don't know why that would be, but that seems like a possibility. And then I guess the other option would be just more broadly that there was some anxiety about, like, losing Willow or wanting to basically, like, draw out the period of time that Willow would need to be going there to do magic and spending time with her. So those were the things that occurred to me. But, yeah. Is this something that we will be getting an answer to eventually? Yeah. Okay. Okay, great.
- [34:41]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, there's a lot of. Once you know what they are, I think in Restless especially, there's just, like, a lot of seeds that are planted for future storylines and stuff like that.
- [34:53]
Mallory Rubin
How many of them have to do with the cheese slice guy?
- [34:55]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, the cheese man. Who could be more important than the cheese man? You know what I mean?
- [35:01]
Mallory Rubin
Wild.
- [35:02]
Joanna Robinson
All right. The characters that linger. I just. So I just want to talk about the way in which they, like, continually use characters in a way that we get. Faith comes back for a two parter. Jonathan's here and he gets his own episode. Anya being bumped up from season three into season four, Spike coming back from a big bad into recycling, into becoming a main character in the show, or things like bringing the mayor back for the Spike two parter or the Faith two parter or Prismal Snyder shows up and restless.
- [35:35]
Mallory Rubin
You know what I mean? Like, we're just incredible.
- [35:37]
Joanna Robinson
We're, you know, harmonies here. We're using all parts of the universe to make it feel like a tapestry. It's always exciting, I think, when those characters come back. And I'm curious a lot, for Spike, for Anya, for Faith, for Jonathan. This is all part of, like, at different speeds, something like a redemption arc or a growth Arc for all of them. Big picture. I know we have a whole faith category that we will get into when we get into our superlatives, but Big picture, bringing faith back, what did you think? How did that.
- [36:05]
Mallory Rubin
How did that work for you? I'm thrilled of my life. I mean, again, the highs in this season are really high. Like, I love these Faith episodes. I think that clearly there's some more material waiting for me there in Angel. So I'm excited about that. This is. This falls into the, like, I don't know, bucket. I don't know how much more faith is ahead of me either in Buffy or in angel, but I thought that this was really smart. And not only do we have a faith category coming in our superlatives, but I have faith reflected in other categories as well in the superlatives. It was just a pretty powerful showing across those two episodes. So I'll try not to just hit everything that we're going to talk about later. But I thought it was just really tight and efficient and smart and well done. We get the harlot lipstick. Faith in Buffy's body, flirting with Spike and teasing Spike at the Bronze. Like, incredible. I have no doubt we both have that coming in our categories today, which seems impossible that we wouldn't. The bathtub scene, the mirror sequence, and these are moments performed in those cases by Sarah Geller. But it's Faith as a character, so that's brilliant. We talked so much across our season three pods about, and even previously, we've more than one additional Slayer now, like, like, what is that other slayer telling us about the idea of the Slayer, but also about Buffy and what are they telling Buffy about herself? There was something to me about bringing Faith back, this eight month coma. And it's like, oh, that stuff didn't go away. That just felt to me like, really representative of the confidence that this show has and its intention. Like, there's a version of it where Faith returns and Buffy and Faith are like. Like, we really let things get out of hand. Let's find a way to move past this and like, maybe in the future of their shared story that will happen and they would reconcile. I think that would be very interesting if there's a path to that. But the fact that it wasn't neat and tidy and easy. Like, Faith comes back and she wants revenge and she has been tormented in her dreams by, you know, drops of blood on the floor and then looking down and there's a knife in the. The gut. Right? So like, you know, the snake on the picnic blanket with the mayor. Like, I thought that Faith, watching the tape from the mayor was. Even though he was saying things, it was a great return to the mayor experience where he was saying things that are like, if you stop and pause and think about them and break them down so up. Like, making Faith think that she has no place in the world without him. But also I was like, I'm, like, really affected by what I'm. What I'm watching. That's the per.
- [38:52]
Joanna Robinson
It's the perfect mayor cocktail, right? And like, Harry Groening as the mayor is like, again, it's just like, impeccable to me every time. But that intoxicating blend of just sort of like, I. I mean, I have it. I have that in my emotion most emotional moment category, which is like, super weird. But it's just like, I got so emotional watching her watch that. Watching her, like, smile at his dumb dad jokes, like all that sort of stuff like that. And then like, yeah, and then he's just saying the most toxic shit to her when he's just sort of like, without me, your days are numbered. And that's just it, baby girl. Like, you're nothing without me. Like, it's horrible. But also just like, you want comfort for Faith. I still want. I'm still always rooting for Faith. And so, you know, and then this body swap storyline, which is like, you know, something that, you know, every genre show wants to do, but, like this walk a mile in your skin idea, like, this is largely a sort of like, Faith as portrayed by Sarah Michelle Gellar experience. And it's a knockout experience.
- [39:55]
Mallory Rubin
Unbelievable.
- [39:56]
Joanna Robinson
But Buffy is portrayed by Eliza Dushku. The way when the watchers, like, spit in her face and call her it and all this sort of stuff like that, like what that is forcing Buffy to confront about what the experience of just being a Faith in the world. You know what I mean? It is much more about the movement that happens for Faith as a character over the arc of those episodes. But there is some movement there, as there should be in a body swap episode for Buffy as well. And I do. I think this is like, they might be my. Other than, like, hush, you know, I love Something Blue and I love some of this other stuff. But, like, in terms of, like, the show at its best, when it's just like hitting emotionally, psychologically inside of a genre concept. I think this two parter is the highlight of the season for me. So.
- [40:45]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah. Yeah, really excellent. I loved it.
- [40:47]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Followed quickly by Superstar with Jonathan, which is just like another like, incredibly executed genre. Storyline unbelievable. Really good. And like, when you think about Jonathan, like, when. When you watch that episode and they had so much fun with the. With the credits of both who Are you? And Superstar, where they're like, Eliza Dushku as Buffy in the credits for who Are you? And then inserting images of Jonathan in the opening credits for Superstar is so funny. His slow walk towards the camera is just, like, absolutely iconic. But that puts Jonathan in the Buffy role inside of those credits. And so you think about, like, Faith in her ever since we met her, like, desire to be Buffy in a way. Her hatred for Buffy and her desire to be Buffy in a way. Jonathan wanting to be Buffy. Kathy wanting to be Buffy at the beginning of this season. Professor Walsh in Let's Go. I want to be Riley's number one girl wanting to be Buffy in a way. Forest in I want to be Riley's number one girl in a way wanting to be Buffy. Like, all these people wanting to be Buffy. Being this ongoing theme of the season, I think it's really interesting. And then Buffy spending so much of the season not being herself, whether it's under a spell in Something Blue or captivated by a sex Spell and Where the Wild Things Are or In this faith 2parter, I just think it's like, really, Again, such interesting concept this season, so patchily executed. But this question of identity, which we hammered a lot in season three as this idea of foils, like, who are these reflections of all these people? And it's a little less that even though Faith is back and Faith is the ultimate foil for Buffy, but it's just a little bit more like, how do you define yourself in this bigger world when you leave high school and you know who you are, you're Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and you are a high school student by day and a slayer by night, and your boyfriend's a vampire, and you understand that's your role. And then all that stuff goes away. Faith comes back and she's like, angel's not even here anymore. What are we.
- [42:50]
Mallory Rubin
Incredible moment.
- [42:52]
Joanna Robinson
You know, I just think all of that stuff, though messily executed, is really interesting. And so even something as like. Like dumb and seemingly one off as Superstar, which is like a surprisingly consequential episode when, like, Jonathan's the one who figures out Adam's power source and that's like, the answer at the end of the season to a certain degree, or Jonathan's the one who fixes Riley and Buffy's relationship, and in theory, if I cared about that, that would be consequential. So, like, there are consequential things that happen inside of this. Sort of like in other seasons of Buffy, it would be like a one off episode that is disconnected, like totally disconnected from anything that's happening in the larger sense of the plot. Ye just really. I love it. What did you think of Jonathan's return
- [43:35]
Mallory Rubin
here so often when we're watching these episodes? Because, well, you've seen them a million times and I'm watching them for the first time and then the second time I'm texting you a lot of screenshots of my TV or just a lot of pictures of my tv. Very frequently there are pictures of Giles, but other things as well. And so you typically know because of the text I've sent you where I am in the season. And I sent you some stuff. I was sending you some many things from the Faith episodes. And then I sent you something from where the Wild Things Are. And you were like, you didn't text me at the Jonathan episode. Like, I can't believe you didn't send me anything from the Jonathan episode. And I was like, I just. I couldn't find like a photo to stand in for. There's no way to isolate a moment. And then you immediately responded with. With the shot from the credits of him walking toward the camera. But I'm inclined to say that nothing could have prepared me for the Superstar Jonathan episode. Except for the fact that many months ago you introduced Jonathan category into the superlatives that always indicated that many surprises awaited me in the future.
- [44:52]
Joanna Robinson
I was sort of hoping that like, earshot had. Had told you that, like, that was why or class protector. Like, that you'd been like that you would be like, oh, that's why she was hammering Jonathan. And then you would be blindsided by Superstar. But you're too smart for that and I can never pull one over on you. So that's okay.
- [45:08]
Mallory Rubin
Hardly. I think it was interesting as a Jonathan episode. It's interesting because of the. I want to return to what you were just saying about the other people who want to be near or like Buffy, because I think that's such an astute and essential observation. I think this idea of alternate realities across this stretch of episodes was really interesting. And like, of course that connects to this larger examination of identity. Part of like, the question of who am I? Is what is my role in the world? And so if the shape of the world changes now, this has been something that Buffy has played with many other times before. Right. Like Vampire Willow is in our lives for A reason. So it's certainly not the first time, but an alternate reality in which Jonathan is perfect and good at everything. And the driver behind all of the moments that protect and save humanity is a version of that. But like, the, The.
- [46:03]
Joanna Robinson
The.
- [46:03]
Mallory Rubin
The alternate realities in their dreams in Restless, like, also give us a sense of a shape, of a different thing. And then we parse that in that dreamlands for, like, meaning and clues about what might await. So I just like when the show finds a way through the plot, you know, and mechanic of a given episode to tell us something about how people see themselves and how the world around them sees them. I really love what you're saying about all the people in the season who, like, want to be Buffy for two reasons. Like, one, I think it's really interesting that all of those examples that you gave, like, there's something different in it for each of them. You know, Riley, for example, like, he is. I mean, he has his insecurities, of course, right? We talked about that a little bit last pod. But he really looks to Buffy as he is losing his grasp on, like, his sense of certainty and says, you understand what you're fighting for and why. Like, I. I envy that, you know, that's. That's giving us something different from Kathy, who is like, I would. I do plan to drop some blood down your throat and put a scorpion on you and to mentor, suck your soul out of you so that I can run away demon dad and go to college. Cool. But it's all. All those different versions of it are playing out against the people who know Buffy best and who have admired her the longest, feeling further away from her than ever before as everyone else is trying to get closer and get a piece of her. Like, I was so struck by, you know, again, we'll talk the. We'll talk about the distance in the group many times today, but. But I was so struck in particular by the conversation between Tara and Willow about, like, rooms for sophomore year because there was just something almost so routine about the way Willow said, like, you know, I kind of always thought that Buffy and I would, like, live together forever. And now, like, we barely even see each other at all. So there's like this kind of chase of. And desire for proximity from other people, as there's a very, like, organic and natural and sad distance and separation from the people who have been closest for the longest. So that felt, again, even in just a classic Buffy way, the heightened supernatural circumstance, like a very. A rendering of something very true to life.
- [48:34]
Joanna Robinson
I love that that's a great observation. And I think what I love. I love that conversation. That sort of, like, I thought Buffy and I were gonna, like, you know, live together until. And in that moment, Buffy is, like, missing Willow. She goes back to her room, and Willow's not there. And she, you know, she would love to talk to Willow, but, like. And then, of course, they have their sort of, like, rappelling down the elevator shaft reunion moment, which is really, really good. That's great. Last but not least, before we get into our superlatives, I want to talk to you about the use of dreams in this stretch of the show. This has always been something that the show is engaged with in terms of, like, Buffy and her prophetic dreams. We get some of the beginning of the season, but here we get a bunch of dreams for Faith, right? This is our. This is how we're spending time with Faith while she's still in her coma in a weird, derelict, abandoned floor of the hospital that I don't understand at all. So in this year's Girl, we get. You mentioned it. The snake mayor. The mayor and the picnic blanket. Buffy is this sort of like, relentless Terminator villain character inside of her dreams. Faith in her. In, like a. In like, a pink slip skirt, like, something that she would never wear. She's dressed in, like, Buffy drag, essentially crawling her way out of the grave, going full Shawshank redemption in the rain. Sort of like rebirth moment. But we go. You know, when we start, we have Buffy and Faith making the bed together, and we're back into end of season three riddle territory. Are these riddles fun for you or are they annoying for you, given that you don't know exactly what they're talking about here, here.
- [50:12]
Mallory Rubin
So I always think the riddles are fun. I always like a dream riddle. I think that's interesting. In general, the season three Little Miss Muffet stuff, I guess, maybe is connected to this, though I still don't know that for sure. This time, this year's girl, Faith and Buffy making the bed stretch, and Faith saying, little sis is coming. I know. So much to. To do before she gets here. And then later in Restless, in Buffy's turn through the dreamscape, seeing Tara there and Tara saying, you think you know what's to come. What you are. You haven't even begun. I need to go find the others. Be back before dawn without spoiling people. Anything for people who are watching in real time with us and have not started season five, which, again, I have not started season five. I do know that dawn is a character who is coming to the show.
- [51:11]
Joanna Robinson
I didn't know if you knew that, but I.
- [51:13]
Mallory Rubin
So. So I know these are about. I know enough to know these are about Dawn. Yeah, I don't really know enough to understand how Dawn's introduction into the story will be, like, explained. I don't know the details, so I kind of have a sense of the role dawn occupies in the story, but not the particulars yet.
- [51:33]
Joanna Robinson
So it's all dawn stuff and what's really fun. So Dawn, I think it's okay to say dawn, that character starts in the next season. So, like, we're right around the corner. But knowing that.
- [51:45]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah.
- [51:45]
Joanna Robinson
And knowing that was always the plan. That's what the season three stuff is about. So, like, all the way back in season three, they're planting this seed for season five, including the, like, the number of days that they're counting down at the end of season three are, like, the number of days until that character shows up in season five. And that's just, like, fun.
- [52:04]
Mallory Rubin
Nice.
- [52:05]
Joanna Robinson
Cool. Anyway, so you know about Dawn. I was just trying to be protective of you in case you didn't, but I appreciate it.
- [52:11]
Mallory Rubin
I'll reveal later, when we get to certain key episodes, how I know some things about dawn, but also just in a totally spoiler free way. Like I've told you before, I'm watching these on Hulu and, you know, I have an Apple tv, so, you know, on the main, like, Apple TV time, one of the tiles, it's just Buffy and Dawn, so I'm like, seems like this is probably a pretty big deal.
- [52:32]
Joanna Robinson
Cool. All right, well, that's that. I do think I will say you think you know what's to come. What you are, you haven't begun. I think about that all the time, especially the way that Amber Benson delivers. You think you know what's to come. What you are. And then also very intriguing. Death is your gift is also a part of Restless. I think about also, like, the way she says it inside of that episode. So, yeah, dreams, they matter. Here we go. All right. Anything else you want to say before we get into our superlatives, which we'll use to cover a bunch of other stuff, obviously.
- [53:06]
Mallory Rubin
No, I think I'm ready for our categories.
- [53:09]
Joanna Robinson
Here we go. All right, we're going to start with favorite line. I have a clip for this one, so if you don't mind, I will go first, please. Right.
- [53:21]
Mallory Rubin
You can't just go librum incendere and expect
- [53:28]
Joanna Robinson
sand. I don't speak Latin in front of the books. I know I said last time that I was. I was distinguishing between funniest line and favorite line, but Xander, don't speak a lot in front of the books is one of my favorite Buffy lines of all time. So I. I really wanted to put it here. So there we go.
- [53:46]
Mallory Rubin
That was my pick as well. I have, as usual, a couple of runners up, but I. I was like, in. This is a perfect television moment. It was just so great. And, you know, like we said a lot last pod, I just think that the. Not only was this a really good season for Xander, for Spike, for Giles, but the interplay between those three characters was. Yeah, absolutely wonderful.
- [54:13]
Joanna Robinson
Their. Their interaction in the Faith 2 parter, when they, like, meet in the alleyway. Alleyway. And incredible. It's just really good stuff.
- [54:20]
Mallory Rubin
We're dumb. Yeah, that was great.
- [54:23]
Joanna Robinson
What are some of your runners up?
- [54:24]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, yeah, some runners up. Okay, I already mentioned this, but when Buffy says to WALSH in episode 13, if you think that's enough to kill me, you really don't know what a slayer is, trust me when I say you're gonna find out. Badass.
- [54:36]
Joanna Robinson
Just great stuff.
- [54:39]
Mallory Rubin
This is a good example of, like, this definitely could have gone in a number of other categories, including horniest and funniest. But in episode 15, when Sanders trying to fix the Initiative blaster, he's like, it's called a blaster, Will. A word that discourages experimentation. Now, if it were called the Orgasminator, I'd be the first to try your basic button press approach. That was. Killed me. Great stuff.
- [55:01]
Joanna Robinson
Really good.
- [55:05]
Mallory Rubin
I love in where the Wild Things Are, when this is another Xander one, when Anya shows up at the party with Spike and Xander says, we had a little fight, that just means that we have to work our way through some stuff. It doesn't mean that we rebound with the evil undead. Like, incredible Xander line and delivery. So good.
- [55:24]
Joanna Robinson
He says, by the way, having just hit on a woman at that party, just, you know, Xander look in the mirror.
- [55:30]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah. Just found himself flirting in real time and not really knowing how to navigate it. I was proud of him when he only went for the peck on the cheek during spit in the bottle, though, you know? Yeah. And then some of the lines you just mentioned from Restless are. Are in the mix.
- [55:45]
Joanna Robinson
Of course I want to hit you with a spike. A spike line. That could go in funniest as well. But I do think I've got a cousin married to a regurgitating. Regurgitating frog demon that's got better instincts than you. Anytime that Spike makes fun of Buffy's like, D is pretty phenomenal. So.
- [56:03]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, it's incredible stuff. I absolutely love it. I think of the Buffy confronting the first Slayer moments. The line. Because there are some really good ones in that stretch in Restless. The line that I loved the most and felt most Buffy to me, not even the character of the show, but also the character is, I'm not alone. The Slayer does not walk in this world. And then Buffy says, I want walk. I talk, I shop, I sneeze.
- [56:31]
Joanna Robinson
Like, that's just very Buffy.
- [56:33]
Mallory Rubin
That's Buffy. That's just perfect. True.
- [56:35]
Joanna Robinson
You got it. I loved that. Yeah. All right. Best villain of the week.
- [56:40]
Mallory Rubin
Who are you going with here? So Faith does not count, right?
- [56:43]
Joanna Robinson
Faith doesn't count.
- [56:44]
Mallory Rubin
Beyond. Yeah, okay.
- [56:45]
Joanna Robinson
Jonathan, I guess, could count. This is a tough one.
- [56:47]
Mallory Rubin
Jonathan could count.
- [56:50]
Joanna Robinson
I don't want to give it to Collins. Whether being Smith, the. The.
- [56:54]
Mallory Rubin
That's what I was gonna go with.
- [56:55]
Joanna Robinson
The leather jacketed members of the. The
- [57:00]
Mallory Rubin
16. Who are you? The Watcher Council goons returning to hold Faith. You know, who is. Is really Buffy captive. Because it's like, I think because the. The Pickens were a little more slim here since this is such a like prime villain centric stretch of episodes with Adam and the Initiative and like, you know, Colonel McNamara coming in and then like our shadowy figures in a room at the end being like, burn it down and salt the earth, you know? Stupid. My God, that was tough. That was a real indictment of the Initiative plotline at the end there. But yeah, the return of the Watchers Council in such a nakedly nefarious capacity was like. Not that I think we had any doubts about Buffy's decision or Giles decision, but there was something that was just so clear, but it also affirming.
- [57:53]
Joanna Robinson
It felt like a way to sort of like try to rebrand the Watchers Council when it's like true. Quentin Travers versus like they're. They're like leather jackets and like, you know, Collins especially is just sort of like, you know, it's just like I'm like, okay, so Watchers. But they're cool now, I guess. And I should say this trio also crosses over into the Faith angel arc. I'll stop talking about that.
- [58:22]
Mallory Rubin
Exciting.
- [58:22]
Joanna Robinson
You'll watch it today.
- [58:23]
Mallory Rubin
Tough one. When you know, the. The like choke hold move, right? To try to get out of the. The Brinks truck. And the other two are like, well, yeah, we get our affairs in order before we head out on a job.
- [58:35]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, sorry. Tough. Tough look for Smith. I believe that's Smith there Okay. And I will say, you know, like, as much as I love seeing the mayor come back, or Snyder as Colonel Kurtz in Xander's dream or whatever, like. Or Paul Atreides, if you prefer it. It just really highlights how shitty the Initiative is in comparison. So. Yeah. All right, Best fit. What do you have here?
- [59:04]
Mallory Rubin
Okay, let's see. I think I will go with a couple. Buffy fits here from episode 14, Goodbye, Iowa. The yummy sushi pajamas. The big speech in the yummy Sushi pajamas.
- [59:21]
Joanna Robinson
Correct. That's on my list. I told you that the. The buffering listeners sent me, like, a care package when I was. When I had surgery last year. And in. In the care package was a yummy Sushi blanket. Like, it's a. Like a fleece blanket that has the yummy Sushi pattern on it. So it's very sweet.
- [59:39]
Mallory Rubin
How delightful. That's really nice.
- [59:42]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [59:43]
Mallory Rubin
What a cherished possession.
- [59:45]
Joanna Robinson
The cats love it. I'll tell you, the cats love sleeping on the yummy Sushi blanket. All right, what else do you. You have?
- [59:52]
Mallory Rubin
I liked when Buffy and Xander are attempting to infiltrate the Initiative. And Buffy is dressed up like the scientist. So she's got, you know, at first she's still. She's going to put the lab coat on, but she's, like, holding it in a bundle. She's got the hair pulled back, the glasses, the turtleneck. It's just very profesh. Thought it looked great. That's a contender. You know, I can't get through a Best Fit category without mentioning something that Giles did that looked hot. Obviously, as always, no shortage of contenders, but Giles, in primeval episode 21, when Buffy has sort of pieced together what Spike is doing to the group, and she calls them all, calls all the Scoobies to campus to meet, and we've previously seen Giles, you know, open the door in his bathrobe, which I will be returning to in another category. But he comes to campus, and he's in jeans, a sweater with a little bit of, like, you know, he's rocking all Henley's. Hadley Henley poking out from underneath it, coffee cup in hand, mini mullet, just peak on trend. The earring is in, and he looks fucking great. Here's my question for you is, do you have. Because we have, you know, best fit and worst fit, do you have the glimpse of Giles as the director of the student production of Salesman? Yeah. In Best or Worst, I found it quite compelling. He's got the ascot. He's layering, like, a blouse and a cardigan. Again, there's a part in his hair which is new and no glasses. Looked wonderful. Thought that was very memorable. And then of course Willow in the ice cream truck. Xander dream in the kind of like sexy corset and silk like shawl thingy.
- [61:31]
Joanna Robinson
The bound, the les no notes, the witchcraws. He's bound lesbian gear.
- [61:37]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah.
- [61:37]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, listen. Jonathan in his turtleneck and leather coat, I think it's a great look. I think he looks fantastic. I mean he's just.
- [61:45]
Mallory Rubin
He's going full Neo. It's very memorable.
- [61:48]
Joanna Robinson
Fantastic. All of the Buffy in Faith clothing stuff, the cleavagey slip bomb Buffy era stuff is incredibly good. I think the yummy sushi pajamas. Also the Buffy white crochet top that she's wearing right after Faith leaves her body. It's a very like still sexy but in a Buffy way kind of look that I think really works really well. And then she's wearing a long camel leather trench. Like I don't know what Buffy's leather leather allowance is like from Joyce or whatever, but like she uses it to keep herself in, in. In coats galore. And the. And the long camel leather trench that looks extremely expensive while she's walking through, but she pairs it with like such a 2000s like super chunky white like beanie knit beanie on top. A confusing look. But the leather trench is very, very good. So yeah, I love it. Speaking of. Of things that Buffy wears in her hair. Worse fit. Dear God. What were we wearing? Yeah, is it the dumb little scarf bandana that becomes Riley's most treasured possession? Is that your pick or do you have something else here?
- [62:58]
Mallory Rubin
This is a two way tie between that and something that I sent you a lot of photos of over the weekend that we'll talk about in a second. But yes, the now Buffy can pull off basically anything but it. There's something about the combo with the bandana and the leather jacket and everything when she's out in the field. But specifically taking the bandana used and filthy after a hard day of work out of her hair and wrapping Riley's open hand with it, that I almost don't know how anything else could be a candidate for worse fitness. Except that this is the stretch of episodes that gave us in episode 15. Xander and Willow next to each other on the couch in Xander's basement. Xander is in a rust orange polo and this like striped tan vest. It's just a very like of the moment memorable look. And then Willow is in this astonishing like even for Willow, patch colored patch hat thing and the choker Necklace. Very of the moment again in this coat. And so they just. It's wild. It's wild.
- [64:07]
Joanna Robinson
It's like a clown car has erupted on that, on that sofa, man. I also said like Buffy's spangled halter and the iron team, like, yeah, she can patrol in a halter if you want. There's just this like, interesting, I don't know, pinkification of Eastern fashion thing that we did. So like Buffy's halter is very sort of like, like Indian, like coated. And similarly, Tara is wearing this like pink sari sort of combo number in Restless. And then also one point, Tara is just straight up wearing an obi like around her, her waist when she's like the, the, the Willow, Tara Witch fashions. I just have a lot of questions in general. Honestly, it's confusing. Clashing patterns galore for them constantly. The number of odd skirts that Tara will wear over the course of her run on the show. I just, I need to start making a list of them. They're baffling to me.
- [65:04]
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- [67:43]
Joanna Robinson
Anya's most hilariously blunt and or horny moment. We both have clips for this because Anya is a legend. Mal, let's start with your clip.
- [67:50]
Mallory Rubin
Sad, afraid of being without you and a little hungry. I meant about the house. Oh, still haunted. I. I just could not love Anya more. She is the best. That's from episode 18, where the Wild Things Are, where just in that episode, I think there are like five, maybe 10 contenders for it's a great audience category. It's just unbelievable. I mean, this is where she's like, you know, she's upset that they didn't have sex last night and Xander says they've gone other nights without sex and she says, I know. Twice. I can't believe we're breaking up. Incredible. She's like, we didn't have sex, if that's what you mean. That's all I do now, not have sex. It's like unbelievable. Believable. You mentioned, you know, later when she looks lifts the covers and does the appreciative look at his, at his dick here.
- [68:42]
Joanna Robinson
This is what she says.
- [68:43]
Mallory Rubin
I'm just trying to tell you that we have nothing in common besides both of us liking your penis. And now I don't even have that. Incredible. But that moment when they go back to the house to Try to get back in. And Xander asks, because it's on the heels of all of those moments, it's a tense moment in their relationship. Right. What are you feeling? Because the house is possessed.
- [69:03]
Joanna Robinson
Right.
- [69:05]
Mallory Rubin
And he wants to know what they are about to confront as they breach the threshold. And she responds with sad. Afraid of being without you and a little hungry. He says, I meant about the house. And she says, oh, still haunted. And I just think it's absolutely perfect. So, a lot of other contenders from other episodes, but that. That's my. That's my winner. What's your. What's your clip? What's your winner?
- [69:27]
Joanna Robinson
Carlos, would you play my clip, please?
- [69:29]
Mallory Rubin
You're not going away? Why aren't you going away? Well, I was kind of hoping to look at some of Xander's stuff. Oh, sure. Come on in. Make yourself at home. And so on. Incredible.
- [69:48]
Joanna Robinson
That's from Superstar. That whole scene where Anya is just trying to read a book and Buffy is trying to investigate is really funny. Anya, she's just like. Doesn't like Buff. Doesn't really care for Buffy or Willow, which Xander will just straight up say a little later on, you know? And I just love that. I just love that. She's just like, I don't really like you guys. Like, I. I love Xander. And you guys are also here.
- [70:11]
Mallory Rubin
Well, it's all the fuss. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. In that same stretch in Superstar when Anya thinks that Buffy is feeling insecure and needs a pep talk, and she's like, oh, buck up, you. You kill the best. Show you
- [70:26]
Joanna Robinson
the entire shrimp. Runner. And Superstar, when she's talking about alternate realities and shrimp. Extremely good. Okay, stay tuned.
- [70:34]
Mallory Rubin
The best. Okay, I. That is. That's my pick for funniest moment. I. I don't. I don't know why that made me
- [70:41]
Joanna Robinson
laugh as hard as it did.
- [70:42]
Mallory Rubin
And it's the comeback to it later that, like, just sent it into God tier territory. Should we celebrate some other. Some runners up here? There are a lot. What. What else is on your.
- [70:51]
Joanna Robinson
We were going to light a bunch of candles and have sex near them. Is. Is a great moment or like. Well, she calls Xander a Vik. Canonically a Viking in the sack. Good. Yeah.
- [71:02]
Mallory Rubin
Huge moment for Xander. Yeah, I thought that's what you meant at the top of the pod when you said some big Xander questions answered in this season. Is he a Viking of the sack?
- [71:09]
Joanna Robinson
Sure is.
- [71:10]
Mallory Rubin
Affirmative. What else do you have in episode 13 in the poker scene? Very funny. In general, she's like, you know, somebody bet already. I've got 3k cards and they all just fold. Okay, Okay. I guess you have the winning hand. But specifically when. Because Buffy's out with Riley and Willow says, you know. You know how it is with a spanking new boyfriend. And Anya replies, yes, we've enjoyed spanking. And the cards just explode out of Xander's hands. This is the sequel to the Juice Box Moment. Incredible stuff. Loved it. Goodbye, Iowa. This is peak. Just blunt. Anya went when Riley shows up and Buffy tells him that Walsh tried to kill her. And Anya cuts in and says it didn't work, but they're all upset anyway. Absolutely loved that. So good. Yeah. And then says to Buffy, you should really get yourself a boring boyfriend like Xander. And Buffy's like, that's kind of what I was trying to do with Ryan.
- [72:09]
Joanna Robinson
That's what I was going for. Just saying. Yeah. Tough all around.
- [72:13]
Mallory Rubin
Oh, God.
- [72:14]
Joanna Robinson
I have to say, like, with all the. The insights that we get to Xander and Anya's sex. Sex life, it really makes, like, how extremely vanilla. The Riley Buffy were fucking this entire episode. Sex is just that. That much more disappointing.
- [72:30]
Mallory Rubin
So don't stop touching me. The thing is, they couldn't have done that with Xander and Anya because the entire world would have ended. There would have been no way to contain. Also, goodbye, Iowa. I love when Anya. Buffy, wants Andre to go with her to. To infiltrate the Initiative. Anya doesn't want that. And Buffy's like, yo. He's got the military experience. And Anya says, it's not like he was in the N. He was GI Joe for one night. This is just so good. And you know that that is something that we keep returning to. Xander gets the military garb to hand out. You know, he's got the. The. The flare gun. He, of course, ends up in his dreamscape at Apocalypse Now. Etc. So that was a great line. I really loved that. Let's see, what else? What else, what else? Oh, boy. I liked when Oz showed up in New. In New Moon Rising. And Shania's just like, everyone's uncomfortable now just saying it out loud. Really great. She's the best. We could just do an entire pod on things she said. She's a legend.
- [73:37]
Joanna Robinson
Emma Caulfield. What a treasure. Okay, Riley's most exasperatingly dull moment I would like to give it to. When he and Buffy have sex for the first time during the I and team, which is like a cool sequence where it's cut in and out of them, like, fighting together and them having sex the first time. His, like, face when she has Sort of like, mounted him.
- [74:02]
Mallory Rubin
Him, yeah.
- [74:04]
Joanna Robinson
Is just real. Like, I had oatmeal for breakfast. Like, it's
- [74:10]
Mallory Rubin
so tough.
- [74:11]
Joanna Robinson
I'm like, that's your I'm fucking the Slayer face. He's just sort of like, it's just really tough. I. I was not for it.
- [74:20]
Mallory Rubin
I'm with you. Unsurprisingly, a lot of my candidates fall into that same bucket yet again of like, this should be so much hotter than it is helpful for Xander to say. Also, in the ION Team, I think Riley's okay in an O fish kind of way. Really kind of cat captured the spirit of it. But, like, when Riley takes Buffy down to into the Initiative for the first time, she's like, you said it was big. You told me, but you never said it was huge. And he's just like, don't like to brag. That's his, like, cute, flirty, like, we're gonna up a storm so powerful we awaken the repressed spirits of horny children everywhere. He's like, don't like to brag.
- [74:59]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I think in their attempt to like, oh, God, this isn't working. Try to fix Riley in the back half of the season. He spends a lot of it walking around shirtless, and they're just sort of attempt to be like, no, come on, he's a hunk. You like hunks?
- [75:12]
Mallory Rubin
And I'm like, he's a hunk.
- [75:14]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, he is a hunk, obviously. But, like, I'm just sort of like, I don't want to look. I, I don't care.
- [75:18]
Mallory Rubin
I, I, I can't.
- [75:20]
Joanna Robinson
I don't care.
- [75:20]
Mallory Rubin
It's. I, I, I don't have, like a. You've given me indicators about how much awaits, but I don't have, like, an actual, actual episode count for future appearances, and I might need you to give me one. We'll see. This connects to kind of what we were talking about just at the beginning of the pod, about the maybe shortcomings of the overall sort of Initiative plot and how something like Riley questioning his role and it could be really interesting. It just isn't executed at maybe the fever pitch of excellence that prior storylines and the run to date had been, I think, emblematic of that is like, in Goodbye, Iowa, in his confrontation with Adam. Adam's like. And this is as much an Adam thing as a Riley thing, I guess. But it's like her art, you know, like saying they're both Walsh's favorite children. Her art that makes us brothers, family. And Riley, she's like, I'm not like you. And Adam says, that's pain, isn't it? And then Riley's like, I can't be programmed. I'm a man. And I feel like there's a version of this storyline where, like, him shouting like, I can't be programmed. I'm a man should be, like, riveting.
- [76:22]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [76:23]
Mallory Rubin
You know, and especially because Buffy, it. Was it really interesting to me. This is obviously a lot about Buffy and Angel and Riley's jealousy and feeling of inadequacy, but Buffy calling him out across these stretch of episodes later of, like, you're a bigot. Like, the way that he responds to Willow and Oz. And of course, Buffy has, like, this thing. She hasn't told him yet about her history with Angel. And then Riley's kind of like, I was behaving, and you were right to kind of call me out on. On my prejudice. And, like, I'm going to try to be better. And it all should be.
- [76:52]
Joanna Robinson
So when Oz. When. When the Initiative captures Oz and Riley's like, wait, I know him? And you're like, yeah, good job, guy. Oh, because, you know, the human counterpart of this particular demon. This one is fine. And I think that's why people do, like, the religious indoctrination comp. Of just sort of, like, you know, what is he sort of breaking out of? But yeah, it's.
- [77:14]
Mallory Rubin
That's my winner, actually is in New Moon Rising when he's been put in the. After the attempt to spring out. Pause. Fails. And Riley's in the brig. And Buffy and CO Realize that Riley's there, too, after they've infiltrated. And Buffy goes to get him. And right before walking out, Riley's like, if I leave now, yeah, I can't ever come back. Pause.
- [77:38]
Joanna Robinson
I just want.
- [77:38]
Mallory Rubin
I just wanted to hear that out loud.
- [77:41]
Joanna Robinson
And you fall asleep. He fell asleep while I was saying it. Also, Also at the end when Riley is, like, under Adam's control because of his own, like, inhibitor chip that's nestled in his left. Left boob. And he's supposed to be acting, like, under control. And I'm like, what's the difference? I can't tell. It's just sort of like, lifeless Riley, Other Riley. Same, same, same stuff. All right, best. Best fight scene. Do you want the answer for how long Riley is around Season?
- [78:19]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, tell me.
- [78:20]
Joanna Robinson
It's 10 episodes. But, like, that's a lot. It is a lot. But. But I. I don't think he's like. I don't think he's, like, central in those. You Know what I mean? Like, he's central on his way out the door, I would say. But, like, you know, in terms of, like, why he's leaving. But, like, up until then, I think they're like, this isn't working. This isn't working. And then they're like, this just really isn't working. So, okay.
- [78:41]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah. Because they, like, didn't break up at the end of the season.
- [78:43]
Joanna Robinson
I know. Tough for all of us.
- [78:45]
Mallory Rubin
So that was worrying.
- [78:46]
Joanna Robinson
We're all bummed, I promise you. Okay.
- [78:48]
Mallory Rubin
That was worrying.
- [78:51]
Joanna Robinson
Best fight scene.
- [78:53]
Mallory Rubin
This was easy for me. What about you?
- [78:56]
Joanna Robinson
Yes, but I don't know if we have the same answer. Maybe we do. What do you have?
- [79:00]
Mallory Rubin
I have, in episode 15, this year's Girl, Faith, finding Buffy on campus after she's woken up. She's had this interaction with the civilian, seemingly, who's able to just walk into that. That, like, secret, derelict observation floor at the hospital has learned how much time has passed, that Sunnydale High is a ruin, that the mayor is dead and finds Buffy. And I just thought this scene was.
- [79:28]
Joanna Robinson
I think her entrance to that scene is unbelievable. Incredible.
- [79:33]
Mallory Rubin
Buffy's like, I've been looking for you. Faith says, I've been standing still for eight months. B. How hard you look. And I'm like, I am locked in. Like, we're about to be treated to something delicious and excellent. And we were five by. That's the thing about a coma. You wake up all rested and rejuvenated and ready for payback. So much for pleasantries, huh? What'd you think? I'd wake up and we'd go for tea? You tried to gut me, blondie. Like, I was just like, we are so back. It was amazing. I loved when Buffy said, because there are. On campus, there are just people walking by, going to class. And Buffy's like, faith, these are innocent people. And Faith says, no such animal. Yeah. And Buffy says, I guess it was too much to hope that you'd use your downtime to reflect and grow. And then this is where Faith invokes Angel, which you. You mentioned earlier in Riley and the dreams. Hysterical Faith line here. That and some stuff about cigars in a tunnel.
- [80:24]
Joanna Robinson
Iconic.
- [80:25]
Mallory Rubin
But tell me, college girl, what does it mean? And this is, like, a part of why. So, you know, they will quickly trade some punches, and then the cops show up and Faith will flee. So this is more about a fight of intention and vitriol and words. Right. But Faith is on the attack, even just finding, like, they're both looking for each other. But Faith has found her. She's observed them through the window at Giles. Right. And so Faith is very much like the aggressor here. And then Buffy comes in and you're just like, right, Never for a second, never for long is Buffy going to be on the back foot. So when Faith says, tell me, college girl, what does it mean? And even just college girl, like, there's all that jealousy. Right. To me mostly, that you still mouth off about things you don't understand. And I just thought that was epic.
- [81:14]
Joanna Robinson
Like, really, really great. I, I, that's, I think that's a clear pick for verbal fight. I think you're absolutely right. Also, the comedy of Willow trying to be involved a bit. Great stuff in terms of physical fight. I gave it to the Buffy and Faith destroy the summer's home. Because I'm always worried about that craftsman. As you know. I care about it deeply. They break a lot of furniture. Poor Joyce. But yeah, Buffy and Faith fighting their way through the house, I thought was really good. Buffy's entrance through the window. The hi, Mom. Hi, honey. That sort of stuff is really, really good. And then their fight throughout the house I thought was great.
- [81:51]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, I just, that whole stretch of this season is amazing. I, I loved too, like, one of my, like a kind of related runner up smuggle sort of between our two picks is Faith and Joyce. You know, when Faith is holding Joyce captive in her bedroom.
- [82:05]
Joanna Robinson
That seems electric. That scene is so good.
- [82:09]
Mallory Rubin
And like, to, to the point from earlier about how part of why I found these Faith episodes so rewarding is because, like, the history and the tension and the ferocity is so palpable and there's not instant recon affiliation. And you feel all of that trauma and all of those wounds in this Faith Joyce moment too. Like when she's just like, Buffy's too busy to remember dear old Mom. And even though Buffy does smash through that window and come to save her mom, in those couple of moments, you're like.
- [82:37]
Joanna Robinson
And then later true later as Sarah, you know, as played by Sarah in the next episode when she's like, I knew it. She hasn't been home. Like, you know, she was right. And she's like, you had this, you have this mom, and you just like, don't even know what you're ignoring. Like, I would kill to have this craftsman and have this cool mom and all this other stuff like that.
- [82:58]
Mallory Rubin
And like, yeah, it's that great combo of like, taking for granted the things that Faith herself lacked. And also just like, really, like, luxuriating in any Reminder that Buffy isn't as perfect as other people think. You know, it's just so good.
- [83:11]
Joanna Robinson
All right, let's see. What do we have next? Oh, great. Great. For me, horniest clip. Horny's moment. I have a clip. Let's play it.
- [83:20]
Mallory Rubin
Even you, Spike. I could ride you at a gallop until your legs buckled and your eyes rolled up. I've got muscles you've never even dreamed of. I could squeeze you until you pop like warm champagne and you beg me to hurt you just a little bit more. And you know why I don't? Because it's wrong. Tell me.
- [83:52]
Joanna Robinson
Tell me your thoughts and feelings when you first saw that scene, please.
- [84:01]
Mallory Rubin
Very powerful, very memorable, very impactful. Thrilled to tell you that that's also one of my clips today for another category. It's that good. Very of a piece with what we were talking about last pod in celebrating the genius of Something Blue and, like, getting to these characters and these performers just have this.
- [84:26]
Joanna Robinson
Marster's once again making a meal out of this moment when he's just, like. When he does that, like, head tilt, like, pull towards her. I just feel like he's like. He's like, really? And he's talking. Talked about this really intentionally showing the writers, the producers, like, you want more of this. You want more of Spike and Buffy in close proximity. And I'm like, yes, we do. So we.
- [84:49]
Mallory Rubin
And, yeah, so it's perfect because it gives us a little taste of something forbidden between Buffy and Spike. But also it is faith driving Buffy's body there. And those words are faiths. And it is such an. I mean, this is a very sexual stretch for Buffy, but that is such an overtly sexual faith approach there, that it's just. It's this. And I mean, Spike looks like he is. Has just melted. Even though he ends that with, like, you know, we're going to have a confrontation at the end of that exchange. In those moments, he is lost to her completely.
- [85:27]
Joanna Robinson
I would say a couple in. In that same stretch of. Of Sarah as Faith in the Bronze, when she meets Tara for the first time, and she's just sort of, like, splayed out on the couch. She's wearing, like, the leather pants like that. And it's just like her legs are just, like, wide open. She's, like, splayed out on the couch. And I'm just like, yeah, that's also my horniest moment list is just, like, the way she's sitting in that scene. I have some very good other options here, but what's Your number one.
- [85:53]
Mallory Rubin
I've got a pretty robust long list here. Yeah, Girthy list. You know, as is often the case, there are many eligible moments for the Horniest moment category that also belong in other categories. Anya, Giles, most Daddy moment, the Faith category, the Spike category. There's a lot of bleed. I could have definitely put this in Daddy, but I just had so many other contenders there that I decided to put it here. In episode 22, Restless, they're going to sit down to watch the movie. Movies. They've made snacks.
- [86:34]
Joanna Robinson
And Joyce is like, this is very normal for my daughter and her two friends that are the same age. And also Mr. Giles, who I have
- [86:43]
Mallory Rubin
a movie night more than once on the hood of a police car. And that is on all of our minds when we see Giles come up behind George voice and sort of reach around to sample her snacks.
- [87:04]
Joanna Robinson
As.
- [87:04]
Mallory Rubin
Yes.
- [87:05]
Joanna Robinson
As it were.
- [87:06]
Mallory Rubin
As it were. You're sure you don't want to join us? And I was just like.
- [87:13]
Joanna Robinson
You're like, somebody call Olivia. Get your man.
- [87:17]
Mallory Rubin
Time to steam clean another couch, folks. That was just really, very, very powerful. So some runners up, but that had to be my pick.
- [87:26]
Joanna Robinson
Some other stuff I have is Spike in Giles. Drag and restless on the. On the swing set. Very important to me.
- [87:33]
Mallory Rubin
Magical. Yeah.
- [87:35]
Joanna Robinson
Tara and Willow's sweaty sex magic, of course. Very, very important. And then also the pillow book Tara moment when Willow is sort of like painting on her back that whole stretch. Also very, very horny.
- [87:50]
Mallory Rubin
Very. Yes, that is quite horny. Yeah. On the Willow Tara front in episode 14, when Willow tells Tara, I hope you don't think I just come over for the spells. That's a great.
- [88:01]
Joanna Robinson
That's wonderful.
- [88:02]
Mallory Rubin
And yeah, on the magic front, that. The panting and moaning from Willow in episode 16. Very memorable.
- [88:10]
Joanna Robinson
And the magic they've created forms literally an O over them. You're like, boy does it. I see.
- [88:17]
Mallory Rubin
Boy does it. I think we've talked a lot about the. The Faith Buffy body swap, but I think it is undeniably horny. And we talked a lot in the episode three pods about the sexual energy and draw between Faith and Buffy. And so when Faith is in Buffy's body. Now, look, everything, to be clear, everything that Faith does with Buffy's body is, like, invasive and fucked up and wrong.
- [88:45]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [88:45]
Mallory Rubin
Using Buffy's body to have sex with Riley is wrong and horrible. I'll go back to that in another
- [88:49]
Joanna Robinson
category because I think we believe in informed consent.
- [88:52]
Mallory Rubin
Not good.
- [88:53]
Joanna Robinson
It was not present in that scene.
- [88:55]
Mallory Rubin
Terrible. Bad. However, the bathtub.
- [88:59]
Joanna Robinson
The bathtub yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [89:02]
Mallory Rubin
Because there's this draw between them and this energy between them. And so she is in Buffy's body and the way that she is like in the bubble bath, kind of rubbing and exploring Buffy's body and her legs as she inhabits it. Notable. Let's see. In episode 17, when Spike is like, kind of rubbing and running his hands along Buffy's cheek and neck. When they run into him monster hunting and Jonathan's all around. That's very hot. In the we're about to fuck a entire frat house into the spawning orgasm walls stretch of episode 18, Riley opening his classic college boy stuff. But, like real Colin and love actually, like this bag is chock a block full of condoms. When he opens his nightstand, it's just like all the different condoms, different rappers. Like, a lot of individual ones. It seems like he's just grabbing them from maybe like a. A fishbowl somewhere across campus. And obviously the orgasm wall in that episode, I mean, real made me think of Steve Harrington in. In Stranger Things coming out when Billy shows up and it's like, is that you, Harrington? Yeah, it's me. Don't cream your pants. Like a lot of just like creaming up the pants happening as these boys touch the wall and they're like, you know. And then I loved on the heels of the first bro, who is like,
- [90:29]
Joanna Robinson
the way language tastes, the way it
- [90:32]
Mallory Rubin
feels rolling off your tongue. And then he touches the wall. He's just like. That's all hysterical in the way that the crowd kind of like builds and they all want to touch the wall. Very funny. I I episode 22 and Xander to Oz in Willow's Dream Stretch. Actually, sometimes I think about two women doing a spell and then I do a spell by myself. Classic Sandra Horny. And before we move on to the next category, I do just want to take a moment. We've kind of hinted at it. I will. I would like to give out the answer anti Horny award for a moment to Maggie Walsh. Professor Maggie Walsh, for watching Riley and Buffy Fog on the wall of surveillance monitors. What the hell was that?
- [91:24]
Joanna Robinson
Maggie, we have some notes. We have nothing but notes for you. But don't worry, she dies soon thereafter unceremoniously. So, you know, instant consequences. Okay. Best use of Jonathan.
- [91:37]
Mallory Rubin
Oh, boy.
- [91:38]
Joanna Robinson
It's a whole episode. Obviously I'm going to give it to. I'm just Shout out Danny. Strong. Great. Just the best. Yeah, whatever. The photo shoot day was for the swimsuit calendar. I just had a great time doing and like, all of the Posters that he posed for. The best. The one that is, like, has replaced the balls poster in Riley's room. It's just Jonathan.
- [91:59]
Mallory Rubin
It's like dunk in a basketball.
- [92:00]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [92:03]
Mallory Rubin
So funny.
- [92:04]
Joanna Robinson
It's just all. All of the, like, supplemental, like, him posing for the book cover. Like, all of the supplemental, like, stuff that they had to do to paper this world in Jonathan's face. I just want to shout out Danny Strong for all of his posing. Great job.
- [92:18]
Mallory Rubin
Incredible. I loved in that episode, the. The blend of kind of inserting Jonathan into real world events and, you know, like, the basketball poster or the, like, mentioning that he could coach the U.S. women's team to the World cup title. And, like. Like, he was in the Matrix, invented the Internet with, like, inserting him into, you know, Buffy's. The fictional universe. Like, he was the classic protector and he ground the master's bones and all that. I will go with the scantily clad twins emerging on the balcony as Jonathan stares into the fire in his manse and they're in their lingerie and they're asking if he's coming to bed. And then at the end of the episode, he's like, the twins left.
- [93:03]
Joanna Robinson
They sure did. And he's back to, like, combing his hair forward. And I'm like, jonathan, you don't need magic to figure out how to, like, use some gel to sort of zhuzh it up. Just gotta say. All right. Speaking of Jonathan, most. My most 2000 thing is not even not before Jonathan starts singing the swing music that is happening in the Bronze. This very, like, jump, jive and wail era of swing music resurgence in America felt very, very 2000 to me. Great one.
- [93:38]
Mallory Rubin
I'll go with a superstar pick as well here. I think just Jonathan. Jonathan wearing Neo's outfit from the Matrix and us learning that he had inserted himself to star in the Matrix is obviously that came out in 99. So that's a very early 2000 thing
- [93:53]
Joanna Robinson
here
- [93:56]
Mallory Rubin
on the pop culture front, I'll also toast the moment in where the Wild things are in 18 when Xander's explaining to Anya why they need to try to get back into the. And one of the things he says is people are going all Felicity with their hair because Julia's, like, cut all her hair off. Great stuff. And then in Goodbye, Iowa, when they all have to kind of hide out in Xander's basement, even before Giles wakes up cranky and says, yeah, I can't imagine why. I didn't sleep well in my beach ball the second we see him and I Was like, oh my God. That is the of that moment in time. Inflatable blow up furniture that like all my friends had. The little ottomans, the chairs. Like everybody had that. That ported me back to this moment so, so, so powerfully. As did seeing Adam put a bunch of floppy disks into his chess port. Of course.
- [94:43]
Joanna Robinson
Oh my God. The floppy disk drive in Adam is like. Last but not least, I will give it to Spike saying it's Must see TV in reference to the surveillance video. Video is very of the era. We miss you. NBC. Must See tv.
- [95:00]
Mallory Rubin
Okay, sure do.
- [95:01]
Joanna Robinson
Giles's most dad moment. This is actually kind of tough for me. I don't know. I don't know that I could locate like a tender Giles. This is my daughter. Except for like some restless dream stuff, I guess. But like, what do you have here?
- [95:15]
Mallory Rubin
I didn't have one clear winner, but I had a handful of of nominees. Episode 13, when he agrees to buy Xander's Boost bars because Anya's like, ew. And Xander says, anya, we don't say ooh in front of potential customers. And Ana says, just skip this part and tell him you want to buy me pretty things. He'll understand. And J says, very well. Maple walnut. Now, of course, this could have gone in the daddy category because it made me long for a band candy sequel. I was like, boy, the last time Giles was talked into buying a something.
- [95:49]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, well, Stevenors were involved. You know what I mean?
- [95:51]
Mallory Rubin
Boy, were they. Boy, do I. What's up?
- [95:54]
Joanna Robinson
What's up?
- [95:54]
Mallory Rubin
Stevenor incredible moment that will be coming up in the next category. Fear not. Let's see episode 14 when he. They have. They decide they have to hide out. And Giles says, absolutely not of going to Xander's. I will not squat in that dank hole. And Spike says, what? It was good enough for me, but you're above it all. I just felt like a very dad thing. Like, absolutely not. I will not squat in this. Staying cold, I will say is with deep and abiding affection in my heart for this group. It is weird that Giles like sleeps in the basement with them. I'm like, can you not get a hotel? But we got treated to Giles in his pajamas in the beach ball. So I don't know.
- [96:37]
Joanna Robinson
I don't want Giles's income is right now, like, where, you know, how is he making his money? How is he renting that adorable flat, like loft apartment? I don't know.
- [96:46]
Mallory Rubin
It is. It is a great. It is a great little. A great little house. It's a good question because you Know, he seemed eager to get cash back from. From Spike. So. Something to think about.
- [96:54]
Joanna Robinson
Something I think about.
- [96:56]
Mallory Rubin
I liked in episode 18 when he lectured Riley for having a throwing a party at a time like this. That was real dad core right there.
- [97:03]
Joanna Robinson
But I like Riley pushing back on him. Honestly. Like, that was a good Riley moment.
- [97:08]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, he's like the. You know, the guys need to blow up the. Yeah, the boys need a breather. Then he invites Giles. And Giles says, as much as I long for a good kegger, I have other plans.
- [97:20]
Joanna Robinson
That's a really good pick. That's a really good pick.
- [97:22]
Mallory Rubin
Just as much as I long for a good kegger. So, dad. So, dad, though we're about to find out that he's just. It's cover. Because he's about to go do something very daddy.
- [97:31]
Joanna Robinson
So I think a couple things I have. It's a gourd. Magic gourd is one of mine. And then also in. In who Are you? When he. He's like, providing a distraction for Buffy and Faith's body so that she can get to the church. And he's like, oh, we've got families in there. Mothers.
- [97:54]
Mallory Rubin
Tiny, tiny babies. Tiny, tiny babies.
- [98:00]
Joanna Robinson
Very dorky dad stuff.
- [98:02]
Mallory Rubin
Speaking of, in episode 22, in Giles's dreamscape, Buffy is his kid.
- [98:08]
Joanna Robinson
I know.
- [98:09]
Mallory Rubin
He knows. And he and Olivia are in overalls. Here we go. And he and Olivia are pushing a stroller through the carnival. So that's like real Giles dad stuff, obviously. Also, he says, you mentioned, you know, Spike wearing Giles's suit on the swing set. But he says, I've got the stuff. Spike's like a son to me. So that whole thing is like, giles as dad. That's all great. And then I guess in episode 20 before that, when Giles is very drunk, this is in the oka factor, when Spike has incepted everyone. Giles hat hammered. And he says to Buffy, you never train with me anymore. He's gonna kick your ass. Sorry, was that a bit honest? Terribly sorry. Like the kind of harsh dad feedback. But then when Xander calls him crusty old Alfred, and Giles is like, I'm no Alfred, sir.
- [98:51]
Joanna Robinson
You forget Alfred has a job.
- [98:55]
Mallory Rubin
So he's just feeling sorry for himself.
- [98:57]
Joanna Robinson
How did you feel about drunk Giles? I was, like, fairly out on this because I was like, I understand the, like, comedy beat of it, but I was just like. And here's the thing about the Yoko factor is, like, there's not a lot I actually like about that episode. But. And I. And I understand why they pulled Spike into Adam's plotting here at the end. But if I wish it had been like, a couple episodes of Spike tears the group apart. Not. He has a handful of scenes to do this because it makes them all look dumb that Spike is able to manipulate them. And, like, I understand that the, like, the idea is that the fissures were already there. All of these stresses and strains were already there. But I wouldn't have mind seeing, like, Spike pushing some of those pieces before this one. Giles to go from, like, one conversation to Spike to, like, belligerently drunk in front of his underage, like, charges or whatever you want to call them. Like, I was just like, I don't think Giles would do this. I don't know.
- [99:49]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, it's interesting because I think we have. You know, as you just said, the fissures are there. Buffy will say later in the conversation with Willow, like, you know, the buildup was there. Yeah, we had all those sad Giles moments where he was, like, you know, like, playing guitar. Well, those are. Those are rad, happy moments for me. Sad moments for him. Great choice of songs and lyrics in terms of him feeling, like, on the outs, but, you know, the cake at Buffy's party and getting. Getting hammered with Ethan and talking about how he has no place in the world. So it didn't feel like shocking to me. I guess the fact that he got so hammered that he was, like, stumbling his way upstairs and dropping his sweater on, like, a little much. But I have. Have always, you know, observed with interest that Giles is a man who is never far away from a whiskey tumbler. You know, there's always a. There's always a bottle of scotch or a bottle of brandy around. So who.
- [100:43]
Joanna Robinson
Who knows what. You know, perhaps that's why the jade mug is, you know, always on the ready. Because you could drink anything out of that thing.
- [100:50]
Mallory Rubin
Spike microwaving blood and bastardizing the jade mug by pouring the blood. I love.
- [100:55]
Joanna Robinson
I love Spike with the jade mug. I think it's great. All right. Giles's most daddy moment. You and I both have some visual aids here. Would you. I would love for you to go first. Please. Oh. Oh.
- [101:07]
Mallory Rubin
When I had psychic power, I heard
- [101:08]
Joanna Robinson
my mom think that you were, like,
- [101:09]
Mallory Rubin
a stevedore during sex. What? Do you want me to continue?
- [101:12]
Joanna Robinson
Actually, I beg you to stop. What's a stevedore?
- [101:16]
Mallory Rubin
He's gonna load and unload and load and unload and put that cargo onto that ship, baby. This was just absolutely wonderful, wonderful Buffy proving her identity to Giles as she is in Faith's body by Telling him what she heard, what she heard her mom thinking about what a workman like machine, an unrelenting. Would you have powerhouse the Giles was while fucking her?
- [101:48]
Joanna Robinson
Would you rather fuck a stevedore esque person on the. On the hood of a cockpit cop car or a Viking in the sack? Well, I mean, I'm not saying Xander versus Giles. It's not Xander versus Giles.
- [102:08]
Mallory Rubin
I know.
- [102:09]
Joanna Robinson
Don't worry. I know the answer to that one.
- [102:11]
Mallory Rubin
I'd rather fuck Giles.
- [102:13]
Joanna Robinson
Don't worry.
- [102:13]
Mallory Rubin
I know.
- [102:14]
Joanna Robinson
We all know. But just in general, all things being equal, would you rather a stevedore or Viking?
- [102:21]
Mallory Rubin
So, as I've mentioned before, this just felt like further confirmation. I am pretty certain that part of the Giles experience is a lot of variants encounter to encounter. So.
- [102:30]
Joanna Robinson
So you think Giles could also be a Viking?
- [102:33]
Mallory Rubin
I have no doubt that Giles could also be a Viking. I think he could be a tender poet. I think it could be all of it. I think it could be all of it. So that was like, you know, band candy. Giles is a stevedore, but yeah, acoustic guitar Giles, exactly.
- [102:48]
Joanna Robinson
You think he would give the old tender Riley I don't want to play games sort of moment?
- [102:53]
Mallory Rubin
I bet you Giles is into playing games every now and then.
- [102:56]
Joanna Robinson
I bet he is. All right, I have a visual aid for this category. It is not a clip, but Carlos, will you please show us this?
- [103:09]
Mallory Rubin
Yes, this is what? The one I was describing earlier. So fucking hot. It's insane.
- [103:15]
Joanna Robinson
This is just a slutty little earring out of nowhere, it should be said. And what's so funny is, like, when this show. I don't know if you have this experience when this show, I had him. Even though I've seen these episodes a million times, when this earring shows up in the quad and he wears it for the rest of the episode, right? I'm like, did I miss when Giles started wearing an earring? And then I went back and watched the hangover robe sequence that comes before it and he does not have the earring on there. So I was like, this quad moment is the first time we see this slutty little earring on Giles.
- [103:48]
Mallory Rubin
Is he not wearing the earring at. At the espresso pump in episode 18 at the gig?
- [103:53]
Joanna Robinson
Oh, do you feel like it's his gig earring?
- [103:55]
Mallory Rubin
I think it's his gig earring.
- [103:56]
Joanna Robinson
It's his gig ear.
- [103:58]
Mallory Rubin
I think it's just like I'm jamming out.
- [104:00]
Joanna Robinson
I'm. It's his Duke Silver sort of Persona.
- [104:05]
Mallory Rubin
I'm plucking those Strings. It's just very powerful and very memorable. And like, the. The earring hole in Anthony Stewart.
- [104:12]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [104:13]
Mallory Rubin
Is so visible, so it's fun to see him.
- [104:15]
Joanna Robinson
But it's his right earring. His, like, Ripper days, sort of, you know. Exactly.
- [104:20]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, as Olivia said.
- [104:24]
Joanna Robinson
Is this where you want to talk about Giles and his singing career inside of the season?
- [104:30]
Mallory Rubin
Yes. This is my pick for most. Daddy was the stevedore moment, because that's just historic. But my runner up is all three musical moments. So we get episode 18. Giles has been kind of, like, coy about this. Oh, adults at the espresso pump and they have to go find him. They need his help. And he is singing behind Blue Eyes, but by the who. And he is.
- [104:54]
Joanna Robinson
Definitely has the earring.
- [104:55]
Mallory Rubin
Yes. The earrings in. He looks amazing. To be the bad man. To be the sad man behind the blue eyes. Iconic choice of song here. And Anya and Willow and Tara are just jaws on the floor, bowled over by his just sexual charisma. And Xander's like, what the hell is happening here? And.
- [105:15]
Joanna Robinson
And Willow's like, guess what? I have always knew.
- [105:18]
Mallory Rubin
Now I remembered why I used to have such a crush on him. This is just an incredible sequence in every respect. He's an amazing musician. So this was just.
- [105:26]
Joanna Robinson
Here's my theory. I don't. I. I didn't research this, but my theory is the writers knew they weren't really using Giles the way that, like, Anthony S head was, like, used to being used. And, like, he is. He is. He. He's a musician. I. He. I don't know if you. Do you know that he did, like, like a VH1 taped production of Rocky Horror Picture Show. You've seen it?
- [105:48]
Mallory Rubin
Yes, because I've. I've googled him fairly extensively.
- [105:51]
Joanna Robinson
Okay. So.
- [105:57]
Mallory Rubin
I feel like that news came to me via Google Image search initially.
- [106:01]
Joanna Robinson
So I feel like. I feel like they were just, like, throwing him a bone of, like, we know we haven't been using you, so we're going to let you sing not once, not twice, but thrice inside of this season. And he's. And he delivers.
- [106:11]
Mallory Rubin
I hope that it continues. I've tried to get you to reveal to me how many more musicians musical numbers are coming in the future. I found all of this just incredibly powerful and rewarding. He sings again in episode 20, the Yoko Factor. He's singing at home this time. He's at his house. He thinks alone. He's singing Freebird, Freebird, Freebird.
- [106:28]
Joanna Robinson
Iconic.
- [106:30]
Mallory Rubin
If I leave here tomorrow, Would you still remember me? And then Spike walks in and he
- [106:35]
Joanna Robinson
does this like, ah. Is there a greater cry for help than a man alone in his house playing Freebird on the acoustic guitar? I don't know.
- [106:43]
Mallory Rubin
As always, I'd like to offer my services. I'm here to comfort Rupert Giles. Whatever he needs. And then he uses the music as, like, exposition. In this exposition song stretch in the dreamscape in episode 22 and restless. It seems familiar somehow. He gets up on the stage, but this is where it was a real, like, coin flip between the stevedore quote and this for me, for the pick here. One of the things that he sings is. And try not to bleed on my cat couch. I just had it steam cleaned.
- [107:14]
Joanna Robinson
And you think that's because of an Olivia visit?
- [107:17]
Mallory Rubin
Yes.
- [107:18]
Joanna Robinson
Not because.
- [107:19]
Mallory Rubin
Because he and Olivia have been fucking up a storm on every surface of his home, including the couch. And what an honor to give Giles a reason to need to steam clean his couch. I would love.
- [107:30]
Joanna Robinson
Not because.
- [107:31]
Mallory Rubin
Giles a reason to steam clean his couch.
- [107:33]
Joanna Robinson
I mean, I think we all know that, but, like, not because. Not because Spike got a little, like, slop. Sloppy and sloshy with a. With a mug of popping hot blood, perhaps a s. Believe.
- [107:42]
Mallory Rubin
I choose to believe it's fun.
- [107:44]
Joanna Robinson
Blood. Fun bodily fluids, not blood.
- [107:47]
Mallory Rubin
Exactly.
- [107:47]
Joanna Robinson
Okay, great.
- [107:48]
Mallory Rubin
Yes. That's my hope.
- [107:51]
Joanna Robinson
Anything else you would like to add in this. In this, your most dynamic category?
- [107:55]
Mallory Rubin
I did. You know, we mentioned when he got hammered in the hangover in Primeval, he opens the door in a bathrobe. You know, the kind of like, compressor on his neck. He looked hot. Pardon the robe.
- [108:06]
Joanna Robinson
And you're like, no need to say pardon the robe. No need.
- [108:08]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, we're good. And, you know, I. I sent you a picture of him biting into a red apple in Restless.
- [108:14]
Joanna Robinson
I know his team. But you know what's disturbing? It's a red Delicious. If it's a red.
- [108:19]
Mallory Rubin
That is upsetting.
- [108:19]
Joanna Robinson
I wasn't going to that far. It's really tough.
- [108:21]
Mallory Rubin
Well, everything's a little off in the dreamscape, so I'm going to. I'm going to hope that's why the
- [108:25]
Joanna Robinson
dreamscape, which is trying so hard to be lit. That is one of the peak seer, the twin peak seer sort of images. Like him with the apple, the canted camera, the red light, the checkerboard floor behind him. That's very, like, Black Lodge sort of stuff in there.
- [108:46]
Mallory Rubin
All right.
- [108:47]
Joanna Robinson
When Willow cries, we cry.
- [108:49]
Mallory Rubin
What do you have here?
- [108:51]
Joanna Robinson
I hate to repeat myself, but it's just the second saying goodbye to Oz moment. For me, this was my answer. Last time was saying goodbye the first time. This is a less like, this is a more I'm happy Willow. This is a more like I'm centered. I'm, you know, I don't know. I've seen some critiques of this of like, she doesn't really choose Tara here because he's the one who's like, I can't stay, I have to go. But I don't know, I think I, you know, and he's like, you know, she's like, it's my fault I made you mad. He's like, oh, yeah, and you'll never do that again sort of thing. But like, But I feel like if it, you know, it's not just that he gets mad about Terra. It's like she's moved on and formed a new life without him. And they have this very beautiful, maybe not right now sort of conversation, but he's crying, she's crying. They're still crying. It's not the same sobbing as it was before, but it's just a very sad goodbye. And then I don't think I'm wrong. Seth Green shows up in the finale here in the dream. And then, and then I think that's it for Seth Green on the show, which is just like devastating for us, honestly. But yeah, that's my pick. How about you?
- [110:07]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, that was my. I had a kind of like a two way tie here, both from New Moon rising from episode 19. And that was one of them. I found that scene in the van really sad and really tender and touching. And, you know, I think when Willow says, like, I feel like some part of me will always be waiting for you. Like if I'm old and blue haired and I turn the corner in Istanbul and there you are, I won't be so surprised because you're with me. You know, it's like, you know, there's a. There's a connection there between them and a meaningful experience between them that will continue to matter to both of them even though they're not together. And then, yeah, I think the scene I was mentioning earlier, Willow trying to navigate her feelings for Tara and for Oz, her. Her own identity, her sexuality. And that moment when Tara says, like, I know what Oz means to you. And Willow says, how can you? And I'm not even sure, Willow, the way she's saying, like, I don't know what to do. I want to know, but I don't. And like, she feels this pull to Tara and by the end of the episode, she. She shows up at Tara's and Tara's like, I understand, you know, you have to be with the person you love. And Will says, I am. You know, that's you. That's you. Like, you mean me. Okay, yes. And they're together and they get to celebrate being together. But the fact that Willow is trying to just like, understand her own desire, I found just really, really, really poignant. Love Willow. She's great.
- [111:45]
Joanna Robinson
You know who I love?
- [111:46]
Mallory Rubin
Spike.
- [111:47]
Joanna Robinson
Spike.
- [111:48]
Mallory Rubin
Same.
- [111:49]
Joanna Robinson
So this category is the triple header of Spike's hottest moment. Funniest moment. Most Spike moment. I have a clip here and it is. Once again I have chosen my most Spike moment as my clip.
- [112:03]
Mallory Rubin
Nasty sort of fellow. Lucky for you, blight as I was here, eh? Yes.
- [112:09]
Joanna Robinson
Thank you. Although your heroism is slightly muted by the fact that you were helping Adam to start a war that would kill us all.
- [112:19]
Mallory Rubin
He probably just saved us so we wouldn't stake you right here. Well, yeah.
- [112:25]
Joanna Robinson
Did it work?
- [112:27]
Mallory Rubin
Well then everything's all right and we all get to be not staked through the heart. Good work, team. It's like incredible.
- [112:32]
Joanna Robinson
And then he later goes, like he says by gum, right when they're like going out to like fight. Yeah. So Spike showing up to be heroic for an incredibly self serving reason. Yeah, that's my Spike. That's my guy. That is 100% my guy. Where he just shows up, saves everyone, but not for the right reason. And that's him through and through. So, you know, even as we are as. As we are learning and growing and changing as a, as a. As a person, it is, it is always this like with a side of like. But it's because it's what I need in this moment.
- [113:09]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah. So incredible stretch of Spike just start to finish across the season. I had like a. I mean every Spike moment is a hot moment. I had a lot of most Spike contenders and funniest Spike contenders in this stretch. Also in. Because that was episode 21. So. Also in that. I like when Spike says when he's. He's talking to Adam and he's like boasting that he's done it. He split the Scoobies.
- [113:31]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [113:32]
Mallory Rubin
And then the discs come up. Right. It's like, damn right I did. You should have seen them. They won't be talking to each other for a long time. Hang on. I think I might have detected a spot small flaw. It's like incredible. That's just classic Spike.
- [113:47]
Joanna Robinson
Like hottest is. It's just is eternal for Spike as far as I'm concerned. But I will say in Restless in the black and white sequence, when he's, like, posing for the cameras and he's doing all these, like, classic vamp poses. Yeah, it's really. And he's like, ah. And like, oh, it's really good.
- [114:06]
Mallory Rubin
I also thought it was crazy hot when, like, the look on his face when he caught Giles singing in episode 20. Just that. Just the kind of. Just the expression on his face and the way he's like. You know, for someone who's got Watcher on his resume, you might want to keep an eye to the front door every now and then. He just looked so kind of, like, knowing in that moment. It was great. I also got for funniest. Are we still on hottest? Keep going.
- [114:30]
Joanna Robinson
No, it's all in the mix. Like, this is just Spike. The Spike brew is just hot as funniest. Most Spike, like, that's just his whole thing. I will say I. I love just as, like, a character moment in terms of, like, people figuring out Willow and Tara. I love that, like, Faith and Spike are the two people who just like, pick up on it right away without having to be told explicitly just because
- [114:52]
Mallory Rubin
of how they are with each other. Like, the hair.
- [114:55]
Joanna Robinson
But they're just like. They've just lived in the world a bit differently than the sheltered Scoobys. And so they're like, oh, that's a gay couple. I know what that looks like.
- [115:04]
Mallory Rubin
Right.
- [115:04]
Joanna Robinson
I just love that.
- [115:05]
Mallory Rubin
For Spike, I quite enjoyed when, in episode 13, this was all hysterical. When Giles pays him a visit in his crypt in order to give him the agreed upon cash. Spike's like, wipe your feet when you enter a person's home styles. Sorry. Careless of me. Tracking mud all over your mud. Incredible.
- [115:25]
Joanna Robinson
I just think that, like, here's the thing about James Marsters among everything is like. Like, he has charisma. He has chemistry with everyone.
- [115:33]
Mallory Rubin
Yes.
- [115:34]
Joanna Robinson
And also he can say the most, like, onerous, like, twisty whedonism, like, garbled jargon shit that they write for him. You know, like, when they're just trying to get, like, real cutesy with the. With the language. He can pull it off, honestly. And, you know, in a way that, like, all of them can, but, like, they give him some really, like, clunker lines and he's just like, guess what? I pulled it off. I did it. I'm sorry.
- [115:57]
Mallory Rubin
I can basically. Every time.
- [115:58]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [115:59]
Mallory Rubin
Literally every time, actually. Every time. I enjoy the. The Slayerettes. Yes. This is so great. So he says it in episode 13. Here this bit of business wraps up any I've got with you and your slayer ats. And then he says, I don't want you crawling back here and knocking on my door, pleading for help. The second teen witch's magic goes all wonky. Or little Xander cuts a new tooth. That's hysterical. And then later in that episode, when he has to give Giles back the cat cash, he's like, that's all I've. That's all that's left. Spent the rest on blood and smokes. Classic Spike. That was incredible. I really enjoyed when he said to Buffy, gotta hand it to you, this is an episode 14. Gotta hand it to you, Goldie locks. You do have bleeding tragic taste in men. And then he says, you think Riley was out knitting booties for your future offspring when Maggie was stringing you up? Knitting booties is just so good.
- [116:56]
Joanna Robinson
I think also the. The Tony Robbins joke when he's talking to Adam, he's like, you're like Tony Robbins, except, like, big. And he's like, actually, you're just like Tony Robbins then.
- [117:09]
Mallory Rubin
That was great. I loved when he went to Willie's for a drink in episode 14. Double shot of OD. Keep. Make it the good stuff. Don't want no freaking orangutan. The way he said keep instead of park. It was just so good. Funny. I love that he called Adam because there's this. This actually very rich aspect of the Spike Adam storyline, which is that Spike keeps saying to Adam, don't underestimate Buffy.
- [117:35]
Joanna Robinson
Right.
- [117:35]
Mallory Rubin
Like, he's the. He's like, you're. You're not taking this seriously enough. Like, she is gonna.
- [117:40]
Joanna Robinson
She has a way of, you know, just getting rid of threats in this town. Yeah. And I, like, admires her. He does.
- [117:47]
Mallory Rubin
Sure does. You know, he's. There's respect there. Undeniably. And I loved when he said to Adam, this was an episode 20. You're not getting it. Mr. Bits. Mr. Bits was a great. The nicknames that he dishes out are just so amazing and great. When Spike arrived to find that Riley was kind of in his new. New state, that they had moved to this new phase. And he says. So it's chips all around. Is it? Someone must have brought the party back. That's fantastic.
- [118:12]
Joanna Robinson
That's really good. Do you think. Think that Sawyer's way with a nickname comes. Comes from Spike?
- [118:21]
Mallory Rubin
It feels like the. The connective tissue there is pretty apparent.
- [118:25]
Joanna Robinson
I. I was just thinking this morning, I was just like, the way in which. And I've talked about this before, obviously, but like this, this archetype of a character that I find so fascinating. But I'm just like. I'm just thinking of like gooey brained me, like young teenage me watching the show and just like having this kind of character, this Spike archetype, which is again echoed across all these other things just imprinted on me. Like frickin Twilight and a werewolf and an infant baby. I was just sort of like. I'm like, I didn't have a choice. I was so unformed. And then I saw what James Marsters plus the Buffy writing team could do with a character like this. And then I was just. It was over for me. I am forever susceptible to that because I was. I was just like. I was so new to storytelling and I was like. I had never seen anything like it. It was just. It's dazzling. Dazzling.
- [119:14]
Mallory Rubin
You have a type.
- [119:15]
Joanna Robinson
I do. I do have a type. But I'm just saying like to be out of here, to be able to like see, to know its origin so clearly, you know, is. Is. It is what it is.
- [119:24]
Mallory Rubin
It's powerful. It's powerful. A few more most Spike goods moments that stood out. Episode 14 Buffy. Cause Riley's like, that's hostile 17. And Buffy says, don't worry, I can't bite anymore. And Spike says, hey, what am I, a bleeding broken record? I' I just. I can't bite anymore. Thanks to you wankers. I loved all these moments throughout because he's. This was so fun to see him in and out of the Scoobies and like the pull of his own impulse and instinct in both directions. Like the instinct to hate these people, but also the kind of just like actual pleasure of interacting with them and the moments where their. Their impulses like align. Episode 15 When Xander and Giles ask him for help with Faith and they describe Faith to him and then he's like, tell you what I'll do, then head out, find this girl, tell her exactly where all of you are, and then watch as she kills you. And they're like, what? It's like, can any of your damned little Scooby club at least try to remember that I hate you all? Which was a great just way to kind of capture the surprise entanglement between Spike and the Scoobies across the season. That was really, really lovely. I liked that quite a. I enjoyed as kind of a continuation of the like Willow Spike, you know, Ed cop scene when he's with Anya and he's trying to rob her at first.
- [120:48]
Joanna Robinson
And she's like, you're not Even bumpy anymore.
- [120:50]
Mallory Rubin
It's like I was just a minute ago. Hang on.
- [120:54]
Joanna Robinson
You're not even bumpy anymore. It's really good.
- [120:56]
Mallory Rubin
Oh, my God. Incredible. The best.
- [121:00]
Joanna Robinson
From one incredibly sexy leather clad character to a another, this category is simply called. Yeah, Faith Lehane. Here we go. What do you got?
- [121:10]
Mallory Rubin
So this is where I have the clip that you already pitched.
- [121:13]
Joanna Robinson
Let's watch it again.
- [121:14]
Mallory Rubin
Let's watch it again. Even you, Spike, I could ride you at a gallop until your legs buckled and your eyes rolled up. I've got muscles you've never even dreamed of. I could scream, squeeze you until you pop like warm champagne, and you beg me to hurt you just a little bit more. And you know why I don't. Because it's wrong.
- [121:48]
Joanna Robinson
Incredible.
- [121:49]
Mallory Rubin
Unbelievable.
- [121:50]
Joanna Robinson
This is a really. I almost text, like, you know, we decide we're going to add a Faith category, obviously, to. And I almost texted you clarification, but I decided not to because I don't know that totally matters. But is, like, is this an Eliza Dushku moment or is this a Faith the character moment? And, like, obviously we'll probably have a mix of both, but I want to. I want to honor Eliza's performances because she has less of an opportunity to do so. But in that stevedore exchange with Giles, when she's like, stop inching. You were inching. It's a very Sarah Michelle Gowler. Like, she really nailed the intonation of Buffy there. It was very good.
- [122:31]
Mallory Rubin
I love too, just before the body swap in episode 15, when she has taken Joyce captive and says, how do I look? Joyce says, psychotic. And Faith says, hmm, I was shooting for Soldier, but okay, that's a great classic little Faith moment there. The one that we both clipped from episode 16, is just so, like, electric and incredible. And I think, too, because we had it builds off that mirror sequence.
- [123:00]
Joanna Robinson
It's wrong.
- [123:01]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, you can't do that. It's wrong. You can't do that. Because it's naughty. Because it's wrong. You can't do that.
- [123:05]
Joanna Robinson
It's wrong.
- [123:07]
Mallory Rubin
Faith figuring out how she's going to impersonate Buffy by saying it's wrong and then getting to invoke it in that way was just incredible.
- [123:18]
Joanna Robinson
Oni. But then. But then the rule of three, like, using it for real in the church at the end and you. And you. Like, it hits.
- [123:25]
Mallory Rubin
You know, it. It really does. It really does. And it's. It's so, like, rewarding to see her leave the airport and choose to go help. I mean, it Feels like so massive. On a. On a, like, somber note as well. I. Again, as we said already, Faith using Buffy's body to sleep with Riley is not. Not okay. That is really, really fucked up. I thought it was really striking at the end of that scene, the look on Faith's face because she has spent all this time kind of like ridiculing Buffy for the boyfriends. And she's like, oh, this is real connection, you know, and like feeling the absence of that. It was really, really sad. It really hit me when he says.
- [124:10]
Joanna Robinson
When he says I love you to her in that moment. And she's like, get off me. And she, like, can't get him off of her, even though she is the Slayer and she has Slayer strength is, you know. Yeah, that's a devastating. I mean, like, obviously what Faith does there is, you know, sexual assault of both Buffy's body and Riley's body. Like, this is a horrible scene. And also it's devastating for her emotionally and for us to watch her experiencing that at the same time in the quad fight. I just think her intro, the you're not me turnaround from the message board is one of the all time intro into a scene moments that a character has. Even when you know it's coming, even when you know it's her and you can see the back of her, it's still like the characters don't know. So it's still like an incredibly cool moment. Also, Willow uses the phrase and I think about it all the time, which is the cleavage slip bomb phrase.
- [125:10]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah.
- [125:10]
Joanna Robinson
That's just an iconic Buffy ism to me. Five what by five what is also incredibly important. Yeah. Faith, we love you.
- [125:20]
Mallory Rubin
Was thrilled to have her back.
- [125:23]
Joanna Robinson
Best college is hell metaphor. Like you said, the back half of the season kind of forgets that college exists. Yeah. So I'm going to give it to experimenting with magic slash experimenting with your sexuality. That's. That's my best stab here. What do you have?
- [125:37]
Mallory Rubin
That's a good one, I think. Yeah. Like, in terms of we are actually in a college setting, I guess. The frat house spouting orgasm walls and Xander's like a ghost.
- [125:49]
Joanna Robinson
What's the deal?
- [125:49]
Mallory Rubin
Is every frat on this campus haunted? And if so, why do people keep going to these parties? Really funny, I guess, like across multiple episodes, this idea of like your high school love interest and your current love interest.
- [126:05]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [126:07]
Mallory Rubin
You have Oz and Tara, you have angel and Riley. So that kind of like meeting of spheres and time periods of your life feels very college y, though, of Course, that can be true at any point in your life. So, yeah, I hope there's more college in season five because I really liked that aspect of the beginning of season four. But we'll see.
- [126:26]
Joanna Robinson
I have really bad news for you. Okay. Speaking of your high school boyfriend meets your college boyfriend. I've decided to give my funniest moment to a very unexpected person.
- [126:41]
Mallory Rubin
I'm not leaving this room. I mean, it's. David Boreanas.
- [127:03]
Joanna Robinson
Welcome to the fun. My funniest moment category. I think Angel's smirk to Riley as he follows Buffy out of the room is the, like, the funniest thing I've ever seen. I think it's so funny, and I just think it's like, I, you know, angel as a source of humor. Not always. So this is part of, like, what more and more what David Boreanas gets to do on his own show. You know what I mean? Like, we celebrated the moment that he was quite funny on Buffy, but it wasn't a laugh a minute moment with David Boreanas on Buffy. And then, of course, it's like I said, like we were talking about with the mayor. Like, when angel shows up, you're like, God, Riley. Like, how did I ever think angel was boring? When, like, when you compare to Riley, I'm like, this is a live wire we got here. So, yeah, that silent walk by smirk is just absolutely top tier for me.
- [127:53]
Mallory Rubin
Amazing pick. I also quite enjoyed angel saying, you sleep with this guy. Like, real audience Avatar moment there. Loved it. Great pick. Great pick. This is where I would like to celebrate shrimp and Anya once again. Back to Superstar. Superstar really carrying the category. So you have the first moment in Xander's basement that we already talked about when Anya's. Buffy's basically like, how do alternate realities work? How does wish magic work? And Anya chooses to explain this by using shrimp. You know, now if this. If we were doing this now, maybe we'd use, like, the hot dog fingers,
- [128:37]
Joanna Robinson
shrimp, everything everywhere, all at once.
- [128:39]
Mallory Rubin
So she says, you could have, like, a world without shrimp or world with, you know, nothing but shrimp. You could even make little, like, freaky world where Jonathan's like, some kind of a not perfect mouth breather, if that's what's blowing up your skirt these days. Just don't ask me to live there. And then later, they're at Giles as they're back with the Scoobies. And Buffy is asking. Buffy is. Has grown really suspicious about Jonathan. And she's asking Anya to explain this alternate reality possibility to the whole group. And Anya uses the shrimp again. Buffy cuts her off. Enough with the shrimp. And then she says, it's like they're all his Jonathan's pawns.
- [129:16]
Joanna Robinson
And this specifically is my pick.
- [129:18]
Mallory Rubin
Anya replies by saying, or prawns. And Buffy just loses it. Stop with the shrimp. I don't know. It just killed me. I thought this was so funny.
- [129:29]
Joanna Robinson
More prawns is so funny. Like it's really good.
- [129:33]
Mallory Rubin
Incredible. Or prawns made me laugh so hard. I also a runner. Another Anya is just. I. I can't stop toasting Anya.
- [129:40]
Joanna Robinson
An assassin.
- [129:41]
Mallory Rubin
Oh, my God. On the Watchers Council front, when in who are you? Giles is like, no, this is different. You know, special ops units, smuggling, interrogation, wetworks. Will says, what's wetworks? Xander says, scuba type stuff. And Anya says, I thought it was murder.
- [130:01]
Joanna Robinson
Xander's like, they could be. Put her underwater. I would like to now perform a piece of dramatic perfection. And this is from Restless. But what else could I expect from a bunch of low rent, no account hoodlums like you? Hoodlums? Yes. I mean, you and your friends, your whole sex. Throw them in the sea for all I care. Throw them in and wait for the bubbles. Men with your groping and spitting. All groin, no brain. Three billion of you passing around the same worn out urge. Men, women with your sales.
- [130:36]
Mallory Rubin
This is Men with your sales.
- [130:40]
Joanna Robinson
The restless version of Death of a Salesman.
- [130:44]
Mallory Rubin
Men with your sales. God. Sarah.
- [130:55]
Joanna Robinson
This is Sarah. I think Sarah's funniest season. Because I do.
- [130:57]
Mallory Rubin
I do think she's unbelievable.
- [130:59]
Joanna Robinson
I do think actually the top pick is Sarah as Faith in the mirror. Like, exploring her face and it's wrong and all of that sort of stuff. One, one beat I will give. This is like pro, anti Sarah at the end of this year's Girl. I think it's a bit of unintentional comedy when there's the reveal of. It's actually Faith in Buffy's body when she's like five by five and then she has to give like a psycho look to the camera.
- [131:30]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah.
- [131:31]
Joanna Robinson
Sarah's trying really hard to be like crazy gleam in the eye. And I was like, okay, that's kind of funny.
- [131:39]
Mallory Rubin
Great stuff.
- [131:40]
Joanna Robinson
What else do you have?
- [131:42]
Mallory Rubin
We talked about the halter top moment already, but, you know. Oh, you mean the camo and stuff. I thought about it, but on me, it's going to look all Private Benjamin. Don't worry. I've patrolled in this halter many times. I've patrolled in this halter many times.
- [131:52]
Joanna Robinson
It's just.
- [131:53]
Mallory Rubin
Well, not necessarily like Strictly adhering to canon because I feel like Buffy has a new outfit in every scene. I just thought that was a. That was absolutely fantastic. Let's see. I think we've covered a lot of the other candidates in. In other categories. Did you have other ones that we haven't hit yet?
- [132:08]
Joanna Robinson
I will say there is a. A hyena callback, which I'm always excited to see. And then there's a. There's a moment where Willow asks Xander to open some milk, and he says, no, I'll. I tear it and it gets all sloshy. And that's just like, such a. A, like, visceral lived experience joke that I just really. It really gets me. Great one, but. Or prawns is honestly hard to beat. It's very, very good. Hysterical with your sales. All right, most emotional moment. You have a clip here for our last category. I do.
- [132:49]
Mallory Rubin
So I guess I'm starting to understand why there's no ancient prophecy about a Chosen One and her friends. If I need help, I'll go to someone I can count on.
- [133:04]
Joanna Robinson
By which she means Riley. And he's not there. Just saying.
- [133:07]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah, tough. Tough all around, man. So that's episode 20. That's the Yoko factor. This is, as we've talked about a few times already today. I mean, I found this a for very painful. It is the product of Spike's machinations and Spike's manipulations. But, like, he worked with what was there. You know, he poked and prodded at their actual insecurities and their fears and the ruptures inside of the group dynamic. And it worked. Quickly to your. To your point. Quickly, but it worked. And the fact that they're able to pull themselves out of that and, like, pass that friendship test. This is something we talk about a lot and have talked about on other pods before. Like, when you have this harrowing experience and you say painful things to people you love, if you can make it out, like, on the other side of that, often you're even stronger, better, stronger place. But that doesn't mean you could actually, like, unhear or unsay the things that transpired. And they say some painful stuff to each other in this sequence. They really, really do. And, like, I think that, you know, there's that stretch where Spike is kind of explaining the Yoko factor to Adam. You know, don't tell me you've never
- [134:16]
Joanna Robinson
heard of the Beatles.
- [134:17]
Mallory Rubin
The point is, they were once a real powerful group. It's not a stretch to say they've ruled the world. When they broke up, everyone blamed Yoko the fact is, the group split itself apart. She just happened to be there. You know how it is with kids. They go off to college, they grow apart. Way of the world. And, like, that's true. You know, I think part of. I was thinking back to, like, what in last week's pod, when I was sort of, like, talking about why I love college stories, I was thinking about that more. And, like, I love high school stories, I love middle. Middle school stories. I love coming of age stories. And in general. But for me, like, college is where I made my friends who are, like, my best friends to this day. And, like, a lot of the experiences that feel most deeply connected to, like, what I love and who I am and what I do were present in high school. But, like, really, I think, like, kind of coalesced in college. But if I had gone to school with my best friends from high school, it would have been different. Like, that wasn't what happened. I went to school on my own. None of them were with me. Right?
- [135:12]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- [135:13]
Mallory Rubin
So I was thinking about what this would have been, and I honestly, like, it was part of why I did really didn't want to go to Maryland. Even though, like, my mom had gone there, my dad had gone there, my stepdad had gone there, and I got in, and it's a great school, and I grew up a Maryland fan. Like, so many kids from my high school were going there. And I was just like, yeah, something new. And, like, we're going to change, and if we change, but that change moves us apart from each other. We ended up, like, growing apart. I'm still friends with. Good friends with a couple people from high school, but a lot of the people who are really dear to me in high school, I'm not in touch with at all.
- [135:44]
Joanna Robinson
Do you want to. Do you want to name them and tell me how beautiful and perfect they are?
- [135:49]
Mallory Rubin
And I was like, send you some pictures of Lena. She is just a gorgeous, gorgeous woman. When I send you pictures of her, you're gonna be like, I see why he just started talking about how stunning she is. She's gorgeous. But, yeah, so, like, you know, the conversation with Willow and Tara about the housing, or Willow's moments of, like, watching Buffy gravitate toward the initiative, Riley and away from her. Or Xander navigating, like, college life and how it's a thing for them that it's not. It's not for him. And just, like, I don't know when Buffy said. When they're repelling and they're. Buffy and Willow are Making up and reconciling. And then Xander will join the group hug. You know, I thought it was, like, really cool that they acknowledged this. Like, I think the trouble was stir upable. I think we've all sort of drifted apart this year, don't you? And Willow said maybe a little. But, you know, first year of college, it's hard to keep the old high school gang together, but I want it together. Will. I miss you so. I just, like, really loved that. And, like, it was hard and intense and sad. And I. I think that exploring this feels necessary and right. Like, it wouldn't like this story and this phase of their lives have been properly explored if they never had a moment where, when all these new experiences and people are entering their lives, they didn't move away from each other a little bit. So, like, my expectation, frankly, is that this won't be the last time that something like this happens. Maybe not in this exact form, but, you know, that's part of growing up sad.
- [137:09]
Joanna Robinson
I'm gonna. My. I perfect pick. I'm gonna circle back to this Faith in the Mayor thing, which I said was my most emotional moment. Oddly, I was reading. Miles McNutt, who's a great scholar of television, was doing a Buffy watched it for the first time. He had never seen it. And so I was, like, reading in preparing myself to talk to you about it. I've been reading some of his journeys through it for the first time. Watching it for the first time in 2020. What is it like to watch Buffy the first time, this many years after it was a thing. And this is a quote, quote from his recap of this year's Girl he wrote. It says a lot that the show managed to make me feel bad for a murderer getting emotional over the death of an evil maniac who turned himself into an enormous demon and threatened to destroy the entire town. But I think this year's Girl achieves just that, which keeps it from being. Seeming too inconsequential. So, I mean, he didn't really like the episode. I disagree. But, like, that moment also, like, I love that moment when Xander's like, anyone Miss the Mayor just, like, wanted to be a snake. Um, great. But, like, yeah, I just. I think that that moment is so unexpected because, like, everyone you know, yes, the show is trying to make you feel for Faith. Everyone around her is calling her a psycho and crazy and this cleavagely slept bomb and all these other things. But, like, the. You know, the show is asking you to be with her as she's regarding the main Antagonist of season three and feeling devastated by loss of him. It's a very good moment. Very good TV moment.
- [138:48]
Mallory Rubin
So, yeah, I. I loved it. Empathy in surprising places is really one of the hallmarks of this experience so far. It's.
- [138:54]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Very good.
- [138:55]
Mallory Rubin
Fantastic.
- [138:56]
Joanna Robinson
All right. So you are excited for season five because, you know. You know that Riley is not making it through the whole season, though, longer than you had hoped.
- [139:05]
Mallory Rubin
10 out of 22 is a lot of episodes.
- [139:07]
Joanna Robinson
I really. I really don't think. I. I really feel like you'll not feel his presence as much as you're worried you will. And then anything else you're excited about for season five?
- [139:20]
Mallory Rubin
I mean, Spike still has the chip in his head, so that's thrilling to see how long that remains the circumstance. And then, presumably, at some point, it will cease being his reality. But has the kind of routine of interacting in this different way with the. These people, like, stuck. Looking forward to that. So I think the Spike dynamic with Buffy and the Scoobies. I'm curious to see what Giles, like, does this time.
- [139:48]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [139:49]
Mallory Rubin
And I support it if it's just having sex on his couch, looking with Olivia.
- [139:55]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah, that's.
- [139:56]
Mallory Rubin
That's fine. And drinking some whiskey. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm curious and eager to see how college is used as a setting, if at all. I'm excited for more with Tara and Willow. I guess I'm curious to see who Buffy, Buffy's next love interest is, like, knowing that Riley is not going to be around for long and that it seems like there are fewer angel crossover moments coming. Like, how quickly is another person in the mix there? Who's the next antagonist? What role does dawn play and how quickly. And I think something that I'm very interested in is how often Buffy is interacting with Joyce. That's on my mind.
- [140:44]
Joanna Robinson
Yeah.
- [140:46]
Mallory Rubin
So, yeah, quite a bit. And, you know, just basically here for every moment that we could possibly be treated to on the Anya front, I hope that. Yeah, I hope that it's like every 2.5 scenes we get. Anya.
- [140:56]
Joanna Robinson
Welcome to the main cast. Emma Caulfield. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous that she's not in the opening credits of season four. She's. She's basically a series regular in season four. But, you know, contractually not, but that changes in season five. Okay. I'm really excited for you to watch season five. I will just. And I've already probably said too much more than I probably should have, but I will just say the season five premiere is a real like that's the Dracula one, right? Okay.
- [141:21]
Mallory Rubin
Okay.
- [141:21]
Joanna Robinson
Yes, yes.
- [141:21]
Mallory Rubin
Because it put up, it brought up the thumbnail for it. When I finished season four, I would just say when I watched that I
- [141:28]
Joanna Robinson
was like, what's happening on the show now? And then the rest is much more normal. But the season five premiere is the Dracula episode, which is very strange episode of Buffy. But yeah, then we go from there. So yeah, great.
- [141:41]
Mallory Rubin
You know, I kind of. I like a weird episode of Buffy. I like a goofy, you know, I like. I'm here. I'm here for every now and then a little go fish or a little beer bad.
- [141:53]
Joanna Robinson
Thank you to Carlos Chiriboga.
- [141:57]
Mallory Rubin
Yeah. Jonathan Frius here with us today.
- [141:59]
Joanna Robinson
Jonathan Frius, also on my thank you list. Arjuna Ranko Powell. Always for everything. Always. Jomia Dinneron and Carlos on the Social. They're. They're tag teaming that they're doing an incredible job and we will be back with more things next week that we definitely have planned. Don't worry about it. And, and Mallory's going to start season five of Buffy.
- [142:20]
Mallory Rubin
I can't wait.
- [142:21]
Joanna Robinson
See you soon. By.
- [142:34]
Mallory Rubin
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Mallory Rubin
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Mallory Rubin
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