Mallory Rubin (2:50)

That's right. So we have yours.

Joanna Robinson (2:52)

Yeah, we have tattooed somewhere on our body to check in on Memento, one of my favorite Nolan movies. So if you have never seen Memento, do yourself a favor. As we continue to journey toward the Odyssey. And also, despite the fact that the reboot has been canceled, we will be continuing with our Buffy rewatch because Mallory Rubin is nothing if not a completist and she has watched season four. So we will be doing Buffy Season four. Part one is something we've got on the horizon. Can't wait. And then, as I mentioned today, Daredevil boarding and check in Spidey trailer Dune 3 trailer plus a quick spin spoiler Book spoiler section right at the very end for the Dune 3 trailer right at the very end. So if you don't want to know anything about Dune Messiah, you can piece out, we will let you know. But that's coming. That's why we're arranging it in that order. So the book spoilers at the very end of the podcast that you can check out. Before we get to that, there's a lot going on both today and in general. Mally Rubin, how can folks keep track of everything? What do you think?

Mallory Rubin (3:49)

Oh, I would just recommend you follow the Pod, follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify. Incredible stuff. And you can, of course, watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys Pew Pew. On the Ringerverse YouTube channel. Follow us on social media because we have new House of Our handles on Instagram and TikTok at House of Our Pod. Thrilling. Exciting. We're having fun. Join us. And then of course, send us your emails. The inbox is always open hobbitsanddragons gmail.com Are you looking forward to spending April 6th watching Mall Shadowlord as I am on my husband's birthday? Let us know. Let us know if you're excited. If you have thoughts of Memento or any other Nolan movie that we haven't gotten to yet. You know, keep the tenant emails coming. We're going to get to it eventually, right? Let us know what you are thinking about Daredevil so far and anything else that's on your mind this spring, send us your emails. We'd love to hear from the Bhad Bhabies.

Joanna Robinson (4:46)

We haven't gotten a lot of emails, Mallory, just for you about Rocky Merch. So just so, you know, the Bhad Bhabies are keeping tabs on all the options for Rocky Merch and they are letting you know.

Mallory Rubin (4:56)

So I was relieved after missing the shoulder body to just see that there's a plush. You know, it's. It's exciting and no surprise, but it is a thrill. I enjoyed completing my Lego over the weekend. It's wonderful. It's very satisfying to twirl it and watch the ship move. Just a good treat. And I'm loving my popcorn button buckets. I haven't used them for popcorn. I'm just looking at them and I'm enjoying that.

Joanna Robinson (5:18)

Amazing. Amazing. All right, anything else you want to mention before we dive into Daredevil Born Again?

Mallory Rubin (5:25)

No, I don't think so. Let's do it, man. Back in the in Hell's Kitchen. Ish.

Joanna Robinson (5:29)

Let's. Let's. Let's suit up and go back to Hell's Kitchen. Ish. All right, so season two, episode one is what we're checking in on, even though they're kind of calling it episode 10 as well. It's a little confusing the way this is a season two, but it's all part of this sort of born again mass entity that they have created. This episode is written by Darius Gadopane, directed by Erin Moorhead and Justin Benson. These are sort of like the main creative folks on this show in general. This is an eight episode weekly drop, except for next week, which is two episodes for some reason. We don't really know why, but there you are. And then at the end of it all, as they've just announced, the Punisher special is coming on May 12th. And though I feel like we're a little behind on the Spidey trailer, I'm kind of excited that we're talking about Daredevil into the Spidey trailer today. Because there's so much Daredevil in in the Spidey trailer, I kind of feel like it's all going to be by the MCU design, sort of one big thing. We've got Daredevil into Punisher and then Punisher playing such a large role in Spidey, plus some other bits and bobs from Daredevil in the Spidey trailer. So we're going to talk about all of that, but it's just like it feels like serendipity that we're talking about all of it or marketing design? You choose.

Mallory Rubin (6:47)

Why not both?

Joanna Robinson (6:48)

But how are you feeling to be back near ish Hell's Kitchen so soon?

Mallory Rubin (6:53)

Mallory Rubin, you know, in General, in terms of having a subsequent season of a show quickly and not having to wait two, two and a half, three years between installments, I think that's great. I mean, it's increasingly rare in the current streaming era to be able to return to a character set and a plot line and a storyline with a quickness. So, like, conceptually, that's nice. I think we were obviously, the two of us, this podcast, maybe MCU fans collectively, a little mixed on season one of Daredevil, Born Again after, you know, anticipating it so ferociously that we revisited every cherished moment from the original Netflix series. And so, like, I will say, I. I'm excited to see where the season goes. I am very hopeful because of these ties to the Punisher special and then into Spidey, that things will really feel toward the end of the season like they're humming. I've not watched beyond this first episode premiere, so I have no idea where the season is going. But I. I was. The premiere, I thought was okay and notably not different feeling from season one in the way that I was expecting, based on sort of all of the discussion around the reshaping that had happened with season one and how season two was going to feel like maybe the show that we were supposed to get. That's not my impression. One episode in. That said, there are things inside of this episode that excite me. A mention of a Jess. I'm like, okay, Jessica Jones, give it to me now. Give it to me when I don't want to wait. You know, we've seen Foggy in the trailer. Foggy. Not here in this first episode. Would I have loved whatever flashback or however that's going to be structured immediately? I would have. I anticipate that and I look forward to it. You know, we're. We're the leading Daniel Blake and Buck Cashman enthusiasts. So, of course, it's great to be back with our guys.

Joanna Robinson (8:38)

I was thinking about you a lot. With every Daniel Blake scene, I was like, mallory loves this guy. And then, of course, Buck Cashman, my guy.

Mallory Rubin (8:44)

My guy. Daniel Blake. Just breaking out the Kith Nick Skier could not have been more on Brand. I'm like, I saw that drop. When it hit, I saw that drop. So, yeah, you know, I'm curious to see how much of the beginning of season two feels like a relic of season one, because we are still in the process of kind of recalibrating and resetting, and it will actually feel different toward the end of the season. I don't know. You know, we're not going to be covering it weekly as. As we have some shows, but we will check in, you know, here and there across the season. We'll certainly check in at the end of the season, if not, you know, if not sooner. But yeah, I hope it. I hope it ends with the bang and sends us into like the of Daredevil with a lot of anticipation.

Joanna Robinson (9:19)

I'm unwilling to promise and under deliver, so I don't know what we will be doing with Daredevil for the rest of the season, but I will say this. I actually liked the first episode way more than I thought I would because I was pretty down on the last season. Mixed down is where I would put myself. And then I. I sort of dragged my heels on checking in on episode one, and I talked to a bunch of our pals who had screeners, and everyone else seemed pretty down. So I was like, oh, God, I'm just not gonna like this. And then I watched it and I was like, you know what? As well, as bad as I thought it was gonna be, I actually, like, quite enjoyed a lot of it. And then when I rewatched it, I think I liked it even more. I've only watched this first episode, but on the re. On the second time through, I liked it even more. And while I was sort of hoping that some various plot threads that I felt weren't working in the first season would be sort of, you know, snipped out right away at the beginning of the season, that is not the case. And so. But there's a shape of something that I think they're doing a better job. We've got new characters. We've got a ton. Like, there were so many characters in season one, and they're still, like, all here. Pretty much, yeah. And then we're adding new characters. Like Matthew Lillard is here. We'll talk about, you know, like, we're adding new storylines. But there's a way, contrary to season one, I feel like in the inside of this episode, I feel like I can see a shape of something that makes it all feel like it's more tightly woven together in a. You know, like when. When they say things like the vigilante trials are coming, and that's across, like, three different storylines, you know, and it's a legal case, and that's exciting, you know, so, like, there are. There are things that make me cautiously optimistic, more so than I thought I would be for. For this season. Not even just the Jessica Jones of it all. And perhaps that's because this episode ended with an incredible moment for my guy, Dex, AKA Bullseye. My fave, my hottest fave. And I've been told by people who have seen more this season that this is like, there's some great stuff for Dex this season. So, like, that makes me really excited, too. So, I mean, look, everyone can wait around for Jessica Jones. I'm here for the problematic white man who maybe I can fix.

Mallory Rubin (11:26)

So, you know, let's be honest, we

Joanna Robinson (11:27)

can only be ourselves.

Mallory Rubin (11:29)

Ending on Bullseye. You can fix him. And featuring multiple wig watch TM with Joanna Robinson TM sequences. Not only did we get to see Karen Page out in the world in wigs more than once, but we got a, I thought deeply disturbing, harrowing nightmare fuel inducing close up of the creepy mannequins on which the wigs rested.

Joanna Robinson (11:53)

Well, that was like a classic. A very classic. Morehead and Benson. Like, hey. And then we're cut to Kingpin and his bald head. It doesn't. It reminds you of the bald head we just came from. That's. They love that, like, image matching shit. But here's my favorite thing about Karen on her. On her in her new wig. Centric life.

Mallory Rubin (12:12)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (12:14)

She has decided, and I think rightly so, that it's not enough to just slap a wig on it. She needs about, like, 10 pounds of eyeliner to go with it. And that's just really working for me. And I'm excited to talk about Karen and the rest. So let's. Let's start with this again. This is not a deep dive. We're just. We're just going to break it through.

Mallory Rubin (12:29)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (12:30)

Sort of like our light of impressions here. So, like, we've got a ton of characters, a ton of storylines, as I mentioned. Let's talk about some older storylines that we're most excited to return to. You've already mentioned your guy, Daniel Blake. Daniel Blake and BB and their whole relationship. We've got these, like, new pastel color propaganda BB report videos and this sort of anonymous esque anti mayor kingpin videos that go with it. Right. So the BB Report thing is back, which I wasn't sure they would use that device again, but they are doubling down on it. And I was like, okay, that's a choice. But here we are. Right?

Mallory Rubin (13:04)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (13:05)

I'm just going to zip through this. Then let's go back through and talk about what you're most, most excited about. Matt and Karen's relationship. Here we are just like, bing, bam, boom, we're into it. You love Karen Page. You're so excited. Jack Duquesne the swordsman himself. We do love Tony Dalton. We're so excited.

Mallory Rubin (13:19)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (13:20)

My beloved Dex out for continually out for revenge against Vanessa. The thinly veiled ice storyline, AKA Powell and the AVTF run amok. Cherry private investigator and Vanessa Queenpin. I do think it's interesting that when I assembled these storylines, which is not entirely comprehensive, but mostly there isn't, like, really a kingpin story. He's just sort of everywhere, which is perhaps by design, but he's just sort of lightly everywhere. So of all these things that I've listed here, what were you renowned Karen Page lover? What were you most excited for to be back with

Mallory Rubin (14:02)

Boy? I. I think I am. Let me start with what I'm least excited about. That is Heather. I just like.

Joanna Robinson (14:12)

Well, I'm. I'm. I'm putting her under, like, new storyline because she's got the PTSD thing, which feels.

Mallory Rubin (14:17)

Is it new if she's flashing back to the muse attacks from season one? I don't know. That's, like, part of what I. I was like, man, we're just sort of right back where we were. But fine, I'll. I'll. I'll maintain some patience and we'll. We'll see if it feels fresh. Always happy to be back with. With Daniel and. And Buck. I do like the Daniel BB dynamic, and I thought it was interesting to hear Karen push Bibi on, like, what her actual connection to Daniel is in this, like, deal. You know, we're manipulators and the easiest people to manipulate. Our manipulators conversation. Right. So this kind of warning, be careful, but also, like, hey, how do you feel about this person? And okay, you're saying, like, no, not like that, but stay frosty. These things can get complicated. Like, I am interested in how that dynamic evolves because obviously Bibi is using Daniel for information. He is clearly head over heels smitten. Like, that's undeniable. And will she start to develop more of a deep and abiding fondness for him as the season goes or not?

Joanna Robinson (15:16)

I don't know. He grows on you, Mallory. He grows on you.

Mallory Rubin (15:19)

I mean, the. The apartment, you know, does anything in Daredevil Born Again have anything even remotely resembling the charm of the original loft? No. Still no. You know, even again, going to the aggressively no Murdoch and McDuffie law firm and seeing the kind of taunt of the brick and the arch shape of the window really took me back to that season one feeling of missing the loft.

Joanna Robinson (15:40)

But I have A note for McDuffie and Associates. Yeah. If, you know, if you know businesses as so bad that day, Hochberg can come in and sort of just like piss all over you or attempt to. I would recommend downsizing your. Your office suites. If business is tough and you're working on pro bono cases and you're letting your heart be your guide, your virtue be your guide. Yes, you can no longer afford the white shoe. Ally McBeal glass and brick, gorgeous suite of offices. That's what I say about that.

Mallory Rubin (16:19)

It's a good real estate note, as is always the case in shows set in New York, where there is almost always a real estate note. I like seeing McDuffie, you know, talk her shit to Hochberg. That was satisfying and fun. You know, on the BB front, I was frankly astonished that the season opened with the BB Report, because that was one of the things that gave me the clearest like, oh, maybe this isn't going to be as different right away as we thought it would be. Kind of. That was like a little bit hard, honestly, to shake off even over the course of the rest of the episode. But I'm interested in where that's going and the connection to Ben and the original series and our real emotion, like deep emotional fondness and connection to those characters and those storylines in that moment in time with Daredevil on tv. I am curious, what is your theory for those anonymous esque mayor kingpin videos, do you think? Because I think there are kind of two theories so far. Right. It seems like the Internet is asking, is this connected to Mr. Charles in some way? And whatever is going on with that character and that I just assume it's Bibi. And then I think it's Bibi. Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (17:18)

And especially that person is like smaller stature. Whoever's in that suit with the gloves and the mask is like a smaller person. It's not Matthew Lillard, I'll tell you that much.

Mallory Rubin (17:27)

And like this just even the sequence,

Joanna Robinson (17:28)

I see Manuel Lillard in a Scream mask in a row, but I know what his frame looks like when it's masked. It's not that.

Mallory Rubin (17:34)

I think also just the sequencing of that stretch of the episode where we're like, you know, going from the BB Report into this, which mentions and directly alludes to the Bibi report and this idea of her complicity in this thing. That would be a good way if it is in fact Bibi, to like maintain a degree or manufacture a degree of COVID and separation. And then we cut right to her. So it felt very intentional to like point toward that direction. But Also just in the. The previously on. One of the things that we were reminded of was her saying at the end of last season, not everything I write is under my name. Right. So reminding us that she is out there generating commentary in a different form. And so I. I think that. That this is Bibi and I'm. I am interested to see where. Where that goes.

Joanna Robinson (18:18)

I am deeply uninterested in BB and. And Daniel Blake in general. Though, I will say that, like, the move of I hired you cleaners cash at me like, venmo me $500. Great stuff.

Mallory Rubin (18:31)

Amazing. His YouTube wakes up.

Joanna Robinson (18:33)

Are trying to, like. Are trying to, like, court a man child as a source. I think hiring a cleaners but then say fuck you pay me is a great move.

Mallory Rubin (18:43)

Incredible.

Joanna Robinson (18:45)

I have to give it to, like, the vigilante trials, which I did have sort of under new storylines than it is, but I think making Jack Duquesne the, like, you know, the main focus, at least so far. I mean, it's vigilante trial, so I think he's not gonna be obviously the only one. There were a lot of people in cages. Right. But, like, him as sort of our central focus, I think was. Was really, really smart and made me excited. But yeah, like, when we, When. When we, like when Cherry is important in this episode or McDuffie's, I was like, oh, we're still doing Cherry. Oh, we're still doing McDuffie. We're not trimming anyone around the perimeter. We're just keeping everyone sort of in the mix, which is like a. I don't know. It's an interesting sort of like, fuck you. No, we didn't get it totally wrong. We're gonna, like, we're gonna fix it, but we're not gonna completely revamp it. Karen Page. We heard you. Karen Page is here. She's here in earnest.

Mallory Rubin (19:37)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (19:37)

She is the love interest. It is so clear. Yeah, but we're keeping the law firm. We're keeping Cherry, we're keeping Bibi, we're keeping Daniel, we're keeping Buck Cashman. All. Sheila is still here. Like, all of it's still in the mix.

Mallory Rubin (19:51)

Yes. To be clear, BB is not. BB and Daniel are not the thing I'm most interested in. I'm just like, it going kind of through that. I hope that that can evolve into something more interesting than it was in season one, if that is, in fact her. And we get to kind of see how she's basically seeking to pursue her vengeance for the way that her family was wronged. My answer Is Jack and Dex like, I think kind of undeniably those are charismatic figures who we enjoy watching on screen, like kind of at the most basic level. And you know, to your point about like, hey, a legal drama in a Daredevil show, like, there's an aspect of that that just feels right and hearing even some of the things that Matt said across this episode, you know, we're gonna get to some of this later about how much of it was connected to maybe his Catholicism and his like, spiritual outlook on the world, but also like in, in the moments where he said things across this about needing to believe in the system. That is a return to a, a, a a a aspect of foggy, driven belief and conviction that Matt has not always been able to maintain a grasp of. And so the vigilante trials as a way to like, root Matt in a sacred thing to him and to this most precious relationship in his past that is now gone, is, is excited to

Joanna Robinson (21:06)

see that the Church of the Courtroom. Yeah, the Church of the Courtroom, I think is like a really potentially interesting thing. I mean, again, it pays off. But you know, Matt Murdock currently missing, presumed dead, all this sort of stuff like that. So like, will he be at all like, as Matt Murdock lawyer, involved in the vigilante trials? I certainly hope so. I'm, I'm continually hoping that Daredevil gets Matt Murdock lawyer. Right. It doesn't always do it, but like, I, I want it to get it right. So let's, let's, let's zip through again. This is a brief check in, so I'm just going to zip through the new storylines and we can talk about the things that most intrigue us here. So as you, Matt and Karen on the run. Ish, sort of Dr. Heather Glenn and her PTSD. Karen Page and her many wigs. Matthew Lillard, CIA, at a very present signet ring. Fascinating. Albany's interest in Fisk as represented for now by Lieutenant Governor Juan Gomez and Attorney General Steve Rudd. The wreck of the Northern Star, an underground railroad operating out of the back of the Aegean Gardens. And the vigilante trials, which we already mentioned. I gotta say, I love Matthew Lillard and I love late career Matthew Lillard. So I just thought he was like, from the moment he shows up and dunks his cell phone in the whiskey and then just sort of ambles into the office calling everyone by their first name while he talks about his hero is, I thought, was a great addition to the show. Is Mr. Charles on your mind? What are you most Excited about in terms of these new storyline.

Mallory Rubin (22:44)

Yeah, Mr. Charles is really interesting. I was also like, freeze frame, zooming in on the signet ring, which felt very deliberately, multiple times. But, you know, most notably of all, the first moment that we glimpse his character at the bar presented in the frame for us to consider and observe. I, you know, love a guy who is willing to make the trip because he needs the miles. Great. Little miles. Go.

Joanna Robinson (23:09)

I need the miles.

Mallory Rubin (23:11)

Wonderful opening note. Dunking the burner. He had just, like a litany of empty glasses behind that beverage that he befouled with the burner. So you're like, okay, the passion for lunch. Many drinks deep. This guy is a mover and a shaker and who's on the other end of all of these calls. Then when he walks in, in the room, and Sheila's like, I don't know who you are or who you're allowed. If you're allowed to be here. And he's like, I'm definitely supposed to be here, Sheila.

Joanna Robinson (23:39)

And it's the first name check that he did multiple Juan.

Mallory Rubin (23:42)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (23:43)

Later, like, you know, it's very like,

Mallory Rubin (23:45)

I am gonna make it undeniable that I am in control in this situation in a way that you don't understand aura that he exuded. And then, of course, the phone call to the Attorney General, who's there to lecture Fisk about, you know, the Safer Streets Initiative not running through the governor or the Attorney General's office. And he's not. He's not abiding by. By the way of things. And there's no oversight. And they're there to lecture him and whack him on the nose. And then Mr. Charles comes in to thwart that, helping Fisk in the moment. Right. Oh, we hear Dave Fontaine. So it's Val on the line. Interesting twist. Curious for your thoughts on that. But then we go elsewhere in the episode to the sequence between Mr. Charles and Vanessa and Wilson. And there is an undeniable note of tension there. Right. And there's this question, overall, with everything that happened on the Northern Star of like, okay, we keep hearing from the captain and the first mate, we did what we were supposed to do. We sunk the ship. But on whose orders? Because Fisk is furious. So it's like, is Mr. Charles the one responsible for what that secret directive was, that they were supposed to destroy this vessel? And is he actually working against Fisk? Not in cahoots with him, which seems likely to me in terms of how this is going to unfold. And so that's interesting. Does Fisk think that this guy is there to be an ally, but he'll actually be an opponent? Who knows?

Joanna Robinson (25:08)

I don't think he's working against Fisk directly. I think he's just trying to. He needs Fisk and Vanessa for this weapons running operation and he doesn't care. The. The point is to hide the ball here. So if it's his directive to sink the ship. Right. His priority is hide the operation, not what will look good for Mayor Wilson Fisk. Right. So it's not like he's secretly working undermine Fisk or anything like that. Maybe that's not what you were saying. But I think it's just that like he's like my. My agenda is the number one agenda. And if that is in contrast to what is good for you, I don't give a shit. But if you're useful to me, I will help get Albany off your back. Or whatever the case may be. You know what I mean? Which is sort of like. As long as they're useful to me.

Mallory Rubin (25:54)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (25:55)

Seems like I will be your friend. You know.

Mallory Rubin (25:58)

A potential thing to explore on the VAL front as well. Where you could see how like Val and Fisk and Mr. Charles working as aligned political operatives to control the levers of power in New York and the country and the globe. And however far they want to stretch it. Obviously this is a street level story, but how deep is the ambition when VAL is also connected to the New Avengers and another slice of. Of the story right now. It's like interesting. But yeah, I think the question of when these power brokers are truly working toward common cause or just it's convenient aligned in a given moment and then that ends up being a source of conflict or one person needs to get the edge over the other. Like Kingpin is obviously not a character who responds well to somebody deceiving him. The only person he is willing to forgive that from ever is Vanessa. So. Say it. Right?

Joanna Robinson (26:51)

Say it.

Mallory Rubin (26:51)

Vanessa. I can't really do it. That's your. That's. That's one of your many gifts, Vanessa. So yeah, I'm curious to see how that goes. And it's. It is fun to. To have Mr. Charles in. In the story. And I'm. I'm curious to see how that goes.

Joanna Robinson (27:05)

Here's where I will say something unexpectedly nice about Dr. Heather Glenn. A character that did not work at all for me in season one. Which is like taking her out of the love interest place and putting her into like sort of part of the villainy side of Things, her PTSD being part of it. Did I get a little ti? Like, twice. We get the sort of, like, canted angle. She's going into her PTSD space sort of stuff. I don't need that to be a main storyline. But the fact that they've slotted her into the vigilante trials, Jack Duquesne, all that sort of stuff, that's just a much more interesting place to put that character than love Lorne in the dark love interest for Matt Murdock. You know what I mean? And so as long as I don't have to deal with a lot of Matt and Heather stuff, I'm sure we'll have to deal with some. But as long as I don't have to deal with it a lot, I don't mind her being part of, you know, the cabinet that is assembled around Wilson Fisk. I just prefer her there. But maybe I would prefer in general that she not be there at all. And is that the answer to another question I had in our notes here is, like, which storyline, character were you sort of hoping they had cut? Is there someone where you're like, oh, we're still doing this? Is it Dr. Heather Glenn? Is it anyone else?

Mallory Rubin (28:26)

I guess one episode might be too soon to say, but I wasn't like, oh, I'm excited to be back with Heather. That was not something that I felt and not something that. I agree with you. I think that it is also more interesting to me, and I think it is kind of, like, conceptually compelling to say that a character who in the first season was very, you know, obviously like her work, and she's a therapist, she's a counselor. She's positioned as being there to help people and help them parse and navigate their trauma. And she's very set in her views in season one in a way that obviously leads to conflict between her and Matt. But she is also, like, principled and morally inclined. And, you know, she has this real stance. You know, she's writing the book about people who wear masks and the vigilante, like, the.

Joanna Robinson (29:11)

The.

Mallory Rubin (29:11)

What would lead a person to. To do this thing. And so to see her personal experience and her personal trauma so substantially guide her into life, decisions that are bad and reckless. And, like, you do feel. Even though I don't have, like, a. A fondness or an affection for Heather, like, when you see her break out the pencil eraser and change the mark on Jack's form, because Hochberg called her and told her, fisk and I want you to do this, like, it's a, it's a bad feeling to see somebody morally compromised in that way. And so I am interested to see if she can pull herself out of that. But if I'm being honest, I don't care about Heather's character, so it's hard to feel too invested in that outcome.

Joanna Robinson (29:53)

I'm not rooting for her to have a face turn. I'm uninterested in a Dr. Heather Glenn redemption. Hochberg is another interesting. As I mentioned last season, this is an actor who I really, really liked on Benjamin Hickey. So I'm excited for him to be more integrated into the mix. And I did think his scene with Kristen was interesting because, you know, all of the, A colleague of ours, and I won't name them in case they're like, leave me out of this. But like, a colleague of ours was like a little bit like the anti vigilante task force inside of like the ice moment that we find ourselves in, in the country is maybe like a little too real for what I want for my Daredevil show. You know what I mean? There's like, it's a little too much like, this is, this is reality and I don't, I don't want to deal with it. But like, in the sort of like thinly veiled trumpish narrative that we're telling here, McDuffie saying, what happened to you and Hochberg saying, I read the tea leaves is just like such a true story that we're just seeing again and again and again around the country of just people being like, this is the way the pendulum is swinging. And if I want to stay in the good graces, my personal moral compass can swing that way too, if it's. It needs to, you know, and so not necessarily someone who always started as corrupt and not someone who's necessarily evil, but someone who is just so narrowly focused on their own protecting their own self interest, which is evil in its own right. But like, that, they're just sort of like, I read the tea leaves and I'm just gonna go this way. That's how it's gonna go. And I don't, I don't much care what the ramifications are if it means I me, you know, talking about, like, the last of us. Who is the us? Like, if me and mine are saying, then that's all that matters inside of the, the calculus of what's going on in the world right now.

Mallory Rubin (31:44)

Yeah, I mean, it's obviously, it's harrowing, it's sickening, and I like that conversation between Councilor McDuffie, as she has requested to be. To be calm, and Hochberg. And I thought it was chilling and effectively chilling. I think that if. If people are, like, I don't, you know, need to be, like, thinking of the horrific state of our current reality. When I watch Daredevil, that's obviously completely reasonable and up to each individual person. I think that this version of Wilson Fisk on the Netflix show and in the MCU to date has been Trump coded the entire time. And, you know, Daredevil, I think specifically

Joanna Robinson (32:19)

this person was talking about the. The task force, which, like, yeah, you know, was part of season one. And we're just, like, living in an even more intensive, like, you know, mask. Task forces are now going to the airport or whatever the case may be, you know, moment in time. Time. Okay, so let's talk about the fight scenes really quickly. We've got two significant ones. And then I'm gonna throw the Karen and Matt training sequence in the middle as well. But, like, you know, so we heard you like it when Charlie Cox punches things. We're gonna open with the Northern Star, which I don't know if it made you think of the Lemurian Star, but it did make me think of Winter Soldier bathing him in red light as he kicks and flips and punches and stomps. We get Karen and Matt training. We get a note overt stick mention, but a stick illusion inside of their training sequence. And I did, like, the moment when he sort of, like, somewhat loses control, and she's like, you're going too fast. Calm down. Right. Sort of moment indeed.

Mallory Rubin (33:17)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (33:18)

And then we end with the Cherry rescue. We get a needle drop. Gee whiz. This Carla Thomas track from 1961, which I really like, but again, sort of made me think of Winter Soldier. Made me think of Nick Fury's apartment and stuff like that. I'm never upset to be thinking about Winter Soldier, though. And. And then we get, you know, Matt versus the task force, and then this, like, stomp and scream maneuver, which he did both in the beginning fight scene and the end, which I guess is his, like, new signature move. I don't really remember it as a signature Matt move, but this, like, stomping down and screaming and rage seems to be, like, maybe quite therapeutic. I don't know, maybe. Perhaps we should try it. But that seems to be a new. A new move for him. And then this, like, foggy as Cherry's heart rate is slowing, triggers Matt. And then we get to quote Mr. Charles himself, divine Fucking intervention from my guy. Dex, what did you think of the use of the fight scenes here? This again, this was like a Season one note. Not that we had, but something that they did. Going back through and fixing season one of Daredevil Born Again was like, add more action, more fight sequences. So we're right off the bat, we're bookended by Major Matt in his new black suit, going to battle. Did this work for you? Is this a huge component? Do you need it in every episode? How do you feel about it?

Mallory Rubin (34:46)

Interesting question. I thought that the action was decent in the first episode and functioned well inside of this episode. To show us the new suit and allow us to get Matt on the security cam and see who is aware that this is him and who isn't aware, et cetera. I think that nothing here is even close to it'. Hearing you mention Winter Soldier is interesting to me. It reminds me. Now we're big Rings of Power fans, but it reminds me of, like, the big battle in season one where people were like, kind of. I'm saying. I'm saying people like, this was a mass response. I don't think it was. But even so, like, don't invite me to think about Helm's Deep if you're not gonna be able to match Helm's Deep. It's kind of like, don't invite me to think about Winter Soldier if you're not gonna match Winter Soldier. I don't know that that's, like, wise, but I just think nothing here is even close to, like, this is the hallway fight or this is a stairwell. Oh, no, you know, nothing is. Is even close to that. It's all kind of always fun to watch Charlie Cox's Daredevil kick some ass, though. And, you know, I think that the way that they say, like, they say a lot in this episode, I would say almost like a notable. Like we're showing you, we're saying a lot. There's a snapping of an arm and exposed bone. There was, like, similar to season one, I think, a declaration of intent that this is, like, adult and violent.

Joanna Robinson (36:01)

Right?

Mallory Rubin (36:01)

That was clarified there. I. I thought that the heartbeat sequence with Cherry was really good and really effective in how it showed us that. Because every time you watch Matt Murdock as Daredevil fight, and this is true for a number of superheroes who wear masks and have a secret identity, you're like, oh, my God, what if someone pulls the mask off? It's like always in the back of your mind as a fan reading a comic or watching a Show or watching a movie. And then they fucking did it. Because he was so unmoored and destabilized by Cherry's heart attack, making him think of the rhythm of Foggy's heart slowing and fading as his best friend died in front of him and he couldn't do anything to stop it. That he let those guys kick his ass and show reveal his face, reveal who he was. And then Dex came through and saved the day. And it didn't end up mattering, but it was like, whoa, that was harrowing. That was effective.

Joanna Robinson (36:51)

What was funny is, like, as soon as they pulled his mask off, I was like, oh, all those guys have to die.

Mallory Rubin (36:56)

I was like, is mad and Dex is here to help.

Joanna Robinson (36:58)

Can I kill a bunch? And then Dex is like, I got it. You don't have to get your hands dirty. I'll do it.

Mallory Rubin (37:03)

Incredible stuff.

Joanna Robinson (37:05)

It's very thoughtful of him, really.

Mallory Rubin (37:06)

Just, he's. He's a charismatic and caring guy, and he's always there to help. That's always been true.

Joanna Robinson (37:12)

The beautiful romantic gesture of, like, the handwritten note on the. On the knife.

Mallory Rubin (37:17)

Who doesn't love a handwritten love letter? Great stuff with, like, a.

Joanna Robinson (37:20)

With, like, a little doodle. I mean, come on.

Mallory Rubin (37:22)

Always thinking about branding that Dex. Here's my note for Matt and Karen. Is sexy, sweaty, training kind of always hot? Yeah, it is. If it were me and I, you know, we're on the run and there were posters, wanted posters for me all around the city as we got to see. I was laughing when we saw Karen Page poster.

Joanna Robinson (37:41)

It was great.

Mallory Rubin (37:41)

And then cutting to her with the wig and in the bodega and, like, the little season one caramel corn callback and all that with the folder stash. Like, I don't know if my secret lair, if I really didn't want to be fat, would just be right above my known favorite bar. That's just a note from me to them.

Joanna Robinson (37:57)

That's all. I mean, on the one hand, I really agree with you. On the other hand, is it like, we could we trust that, like, Josie won't narc on us sort of thing?

Mallory Rubin (38:07)

Maybe they just assume everyone's too stupid to look there or thinks they would not hide. It's like Bran, you know, Just, I'm down here in the Crips. You'll never think to look there. Maybe it's one of those.

Joanna Robinson (38:17)

Fair, fair, fair. Okay, you. You already alluded to this, but I did think it was interesting the couple times that we got Matt talking both to Karen about, like, how he needed to believe in the system. And then to the owner of the Aegean Gardens, who's sort of like running this. This deportation operation of, like, we have to try, right? So, yeah, this, like, hopeful Matt Murdock, and I like it. Again, it's a little like Steve Rogers. He's never. He's never going to be Steve Rogers. Obviously, like, that's not even a possibility. But this sort of, like, I just. I don't like a despairing, cynical Matt Murdock. I like a sort of. Of. I gotta believe in something Matt Murdock, you know, and despair can go with it. Inner angst always has to be there, right?

Mallory Rubin (39:06)

Self. Self.

Joanna Robinson (39:07)

Self recrimination, self hatred has to be there. Like, all of that. But, like, we have to try. Yeah, that just, like, really worked for me. And I just like. I like where we're finding versus where we found him at the beginning of the first season of Born Again. I really like where we find him here. And I'm invested in what this version of Matt can do. Can he stay connected to Karen? Can he, you know, in. In any way he. He chooses? Can he. Can he succeed? Can he win?

Mallory Rubin (39:44)

Can he.

Joanna Robinson (39:44)

Can he fight the system, you know, by using the system? I don't know.

Mallory Rubin (39:48)

I'm.

Joanna Robinson (39:48)

I'm. I. I'm hopeful. I dare say go to Hope. Hope Corps is back.

Mallory Rubin (39:52)

You know, I. I'm really with you. Let me throw out a controversial take, like, which is I would like Karen and Frank to hook up and for Matt and Karen to not be together. I thought that.

Joanna Robinson (40:04)

I don't think. I don't think that's either controversial or new from you. I think you never wanted Karen with Matt, which is fine. And a lot of people want Frank and Karen together. Right? Like, this is a very.

Mallory Rubin (40:17)

The heartbeat that was one of my favorite stretches in the end of season one was, like. Because it's. It was just delicious, Matt. Like, you know, I heard your heartbeats and Karen saying how unfair it was. And then like, did you hear my heartbeat when I saw you? And he's like, I did. So it's all there in all directions. And that's messy and sexy and complicated and fun. So I like that. I'm kind of, like, excited to see what the vibe is with Karen and Frank when Frank shows up at some point this season. I always love when Frank and Matt and Karen get a chance to interact. It's just, like, the best. I thought those were the highlights of season one for me. I really agree with you. Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (40:52)

Here's my Question. Why not both for Karen?

Mallory Rubin (40:55)

I. Yeah, let's. Why not. Why just. Why don't they become a thruffle?

Joanna Robinson (40:59)

All three?

Mallory Rubin (40:59)

Yeah, why not altogether?

Joanna Robinson (41:01)

That would be great.

Mallory Rubin (41:01)

We ship it. I would watch. I agree with you on Matt. I think that we have always. You know, we talked about this so much when we revisited a lot of our favorite moments from the original series ahead of season one. That state of torment, that complexity, that simultaneous, like, need and propensity to reflect and look inward and assess, but also the moments where he is really unable to process his relationship to his own ideals or needs or state of torment. It's why Matt is such a memorable character across iterations. I. I got a kick out of the, like, D, you know, so the new suit with the double D, which people, you know, we've been seeing teased for, like, sure, a year and a half at this point. And, you know, in. In, like, the. The glimpses of the rest of the season to come, we've seen that, like, there's. The black paint is going to kind of chip away and reveal the. The red beneath the suit. You know, Charlie Cox has talked about how he's excited about that kind of custom aspect of the suit that he gets to wear this season. Seeing the DD and then hearing the dastardly. Do get her joke. And then you remind yourself that Matt chose to call himself Daredevil, the Devil of Hell's Kitchen. And this like, the, The, The.

Joanna Robinson (42:09)

The.

Mallory Rubin (42:09)

The contradictions inside of him that drive him. And there's never just an either or with Matt. It's. He's always moving in and out of these states. But the fact that at these moments, we have seen this version of Matt before in moments where his friends are there and people in his life are there for him and they're saying to him, don't do this thing. Don't pull away, don't recede, don't hide. Let us help you. Let us remind yourself of who you are and who we are and what we can try to do together. And he can't do it. He won't allow himself to do it. So. So I'm really. I really agree with you. I think to see in a moment that is so dire, like this one where the pe. They're in hiding, they can't engage with the people around them who even. Just to go see Cherry under the bridge, Cherry's like, I'm shot. Like, I kind of can't believe you're here. Right? Like, Kirsten doesn't know that he's okay. We hear Kirsten and. And Cherry talk. And then Cherry says to Matt, like, can't you just, like, let her know that you're okay? No, I don't want to. I don't want to risk her. And Cherry, he's like, well, what about me? Great, great moment. I can't remember.

Joanna Robinson (43:07)

This probably was from season one. Did they have the sort of, like, reservation, like, auto message coding in season one?

Mallory Rubin (43:14)

I can't remember, but I'm like, I can't remember either. That's good.

Joanna Robinson (43:17)

I was like, that's a. That's really good.

Mallory Rubin (43:18)

Handy to be able to send that quick. No, I can't make this reservation tonight. Please come help me immediately. It worked. It worked. But yeah, like, a moment where Matt should be feeling helpless and hopeless and full of despair is the moment where he's like, no, I am going to tell myself that we can find a way. I can find a way this city can find a. The institutions that we have put our faith into even when they failed us. Like, we can find a way to restore that faith in each other and in. In the. The society that we build and inhabit. Like, it's awesome to see Matt in that place when he has every reason not to be. So I. I felt that as well.

Joanna Robinson (43:58)

I think we've already mentioned sort of this, like, larger connection to the MCU stuff, but, like, we've got VAL here. We get a Jessica Jones mention. We know that Jessica Jones is in this season. I will just say, like, as we sort of try to navigate Mr. Charles's like, murky motivations and stuff like that, the idea that, like, Val directing Albany to cooperate with Fisk's anti vigilante agenda while also creating the New Avengers in presumably a similar timeline is confusing to me. But I'm willing to let the season play out and help me understand what's going on there. But, like, you know, Val. Val, like Mr. Charles inside of this episode is just like, wherever is gonna go wherever she needs to go and do and be on whatever side she needs to be on for her own agenda. So, like, stay tuned to find out. But I just think it's interesting that the architect of the New Avengers is like, sure, let's have these vigilante trials. Why not? Interesting, you know?

Mallory Rubin (44:57)

Yeah, I guess the, you know, the. All of the different strands of VAL and how val, who's been like, kind of. Ultimately, if we counted up the total minutes of screen time, it's limited, but we have like, a number of different properties and appearances and we have like, you know, the CIA the established CIA connection and tie. So trying to tap into I'm.

Joanna Robinson (45:19)

I'm.

Mallory Rubin (45:19)

I was, I was like, oh yeah, this is an interesting moment to invoke Val in this way. I'm curious to see if VAL is like in the show or just a name to mention on the phone. That is a familiar name that we associate with Langley and lends some credibility to Mr. Charles from Langley. Even if that's not true, I feel

Joanna Robinson (45:39)

like it's a way for Lillard's character to be sort of connected to something that feels established in the mcu. The same way that, like, you know, if we see like Department of Damage Control or something like that, like someone as part of a larger organization that we already recognize. Speaking of which, and speaking of MCU connections, shall we swing right into our Spider man brand new day trailer check in all right, let's do it. Snoring, Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued? Wake up to Zepbound Tirzepatide, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity. Zeb Bound is an injectable prescription medicine that may help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea and obesity to improve their osa. Zebound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity. Zebbound is Approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5 or 15mg injection. Zetbound contains tirzepatide and should not be used with other Tirzepatide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zetbound is safe and effective for use in children. Do not share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take Zetbound if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type. 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression or suicidal thoughts before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor call 1-800-545 or visit zepbound.lilly.com Zepbound and its delivery device base and QuickPen are registered trademarks owned or licensed by Eli Lilly and Company. Its subsidiaries are affiliates. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know, with just one trip to Whole Foods, you can travel the world. First stop, discover the taste of the Mediterranean with big sales on brands like Deco, Oreos and San Pellegrino with Whole Foods prepared foods dinner. As such, you can roam the world with empanadas, burritos, soups, and more. Maybe expand your snack repertoire to South America with colorful and crunchy Peruvian potato chips. Then straight to Mexico. For dessert, you can pick up a tres leches family pack cake for only $10 every Friday. All aboard. Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vior. V U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, so release date. So all of Daredevil, Born Again, and then the Punisher special. That brings us into May. And then we have June off and most of July. And then July 31st we get brand New Day, directed by Dustin Daniel Cratt. And this is the first of the Holland Spidey mov not to be directed by John Watts. But of course, Dustin Daniel Cretton has worked in the mcu, directed Shang Chi, worked on Wonder man, which just got a second season. Congratulations, Wonder Man. We're so thrilled. And then the movie itself was written by Chris McKenna and Eric Summers, who worked on the original trilogy. So, like, the tone though they are, they have talked about how this will feel tonally different in terms of, like, characterization. We have the same writers on board, so I'm not really worried about this. Not feeling like Holland's Spider man or Zendaya's MJ or anything like that. And premise wise, it's set four years after the events of no way home.

Mallory Rubin (49:50)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (49:50)

So I think this solves a question I have, which is, like, Ned and MJ have finished their undergrad at MIT and are perhaps moving to the city. And that's why new neighbors. Peter winds up at their house. Housewarming sort of thing. Right? Like. Like, that's this their post grad. We're gonna go to the city sort of move, I guess.

Mallory Rubin (50:09)

So, like, Peter at the beginning of the trailer is watching a video, you know, of. Of Ned and MJ talking about, you know, like, they'll pretend this is, like, you're not the happiest you've ever been in your entire life. I can't at the beginning of mit. So are we quickly moving across time at all before we root in the present timeline or, like, watching this video on repeat for four years torturing himself? Could be either.

Joanna Robinson (50:29)

I feel like he's stalking their social media accounts for four years, and we're gonna see him, you know, like, putting his costume in the washing dryer and, like, all the other things that we see sort of in this trailer. I want to start with what isn't in this trailer, which is Sadie Sink's face. Right? We do not see Stranger Things star, current West End Juliet herself, Sadie Sink, her beautiful face, her flaming red hair in this trailer. We do, however, see a character who is restrained at the minute 43 second mark doing a sort of Night King raise hand move at a minute 57. So we know that they've been obscuring which character she's gonna play. How far do you think they're gonna take this sort of obscuring Sadie Sink from the promo, was that intriguing to you? Was that frustrating to you? How did you feel about how she was deployed in the trailer?

Mallory Rubin (51:26)

Oh, I mean, I assume she's playing Jean Grey and that the X Men are going to be a pretty big part of this movie. And I think there are a number of different clues in this trailer that support that. So I guess at a certain point, it feels to me like they might just show us and tell us that, but maybe they won't. Maybe that'll be a surprise when you sit down in the theater and see the movie. And it's possible that's not who she's

Joanna Robinson (51:47)

playing, but, like, what they could do is, like, similar to. Even though Zendaya's not playing Mary Jane. Similar to, like, that thing that happens in the first in Homecoming where her name's Michelle, and at the very end, they're like, mj, you know what I mean? So if we don't have her name until the very end of the movie. That is something they could do if they wanted to. I also think she's playing Jean Grey. I also think we see her psychically possess various people inside of. Even though, as people are quick to point out out, that's not usually how Jean Grey's psychic powers work. She's not really like a psychic symbiote host, like hopping from host to host. That's not really the Jean Grey maneuver. But it does seem like the. If she is playing Jean Grey. Yeah, the sequence where we see some sort of entity hopping from like a bewildered older woman through various soldiers all around Peter at the minute 51 seconds, mark. There's also all this talk about mutation. This phrase amounts to a kind of rebirth, which some people are like, is that Phoenix language? So like, I also think she's playing Jean Gray. I also have like, no doubt she's playing Jean Gray.

Mallory Rubin (52:59)

I don't know if this is going

Joanna Robinson (53:01)

to be a big. I don't, I don't. Yes, it's great casting. I don't know if this is going to be a big if I agree that it's going to be a big X Men movie. I think this is going to be like a Jean Gray intro, but not like a larger sort of of X Men sort of thing.

Mallory Rubin (53:17)

I think one as a way into the other potentially. And again, like, we genuinely have to be clear, no idea if this is true or not. It just seems like there's a lot of evidence mounting. I think that the. So I agree with you. I think that because we get that Cool. Before we get kind of the close up of the hands that are cuffed to the chair, the sort of like zoomed in shot, we get the, the. The handout shot of this like observation cell. Like basically like someone. Studio apartment set up in the middle.

Joanna Robinson (53:46)

Lock and key. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mallory Rubin (53:48)

And the kind of. So there, you know, you're in this like white observation room and there's this cell in the middle and the wood panels like rising and we can see the feet are manacled. And then when it gets higher, we see the hands are manacled. And then we cut into that closer view of the cuffed hands and it's like a bedroom setting in the room. And okay. And then there, you know, in the outer observation deck around that, the cameras everywhere. So this idea that whoever's in there is not only imprisoned but is being observed, is being studied. That would certainly, certainly fit with this

Joanna Robinson (54:18)

being a captured mutant, a powerful Sight like someone you. You know. Like putting Magneto in a completely plastic prison.

Mallory Rubin (54:26)

Exactly.

Joanna Robinson (54:26)

Like someone. A mutant who is so powerful we need to take all of these extremes to keep her contained.

Mallory Rubin (54:33)

Exactly. I think that the. So at the 207 mark, when Peter kind of slams into the bus and scrapes against the window and there's a kid inside and headphones and a jet jersey, I don't actually think that's rogue, but I think the fact that the hair is so rogue, like, is just a little wink to maybe give us a little bit more of it put us in an X Men mindset potentially.

Joanna Robinson (54:54)

But I think I saw so many people be like, that's rogue or whatever. And I was just like. But also, that's a very popular hairstyle right now. Like, this is a sort of, like, Narcissa esque.

Mallory Rubin (55:03)

Is the Rogue sweeping the world.

Joanna Robinson (55:05)

Like, block coloring, like a bleach section in the front of your hair is, like, quite a popular.

Mallory Rubin (55:10)

So, like, I think how.

Joanna Robinson (55:11)

I mean, like, she's wearing, like, a green, like, the way what. How she's dressed, like, possibly. But, like, also, it's just like, that's also just like how young people look, maybe.

Mallory Rubin (55:21)

I mean, I don't. Again, I don't think that actually will prove to be rogue, but it did feel like they know that people are going to watch this and hear the talk of mutations and speculate about is Sadie Singh playing Jean Grey. And like, some of the other stuff that we hear and, like, think about mutants and the X Men are going to be on their mind as they have been now across the last few years of anticipating the, like, full arrival after many sort of drips and dabs across property. So it felt like a little like, wink to me. But who knows? I think that the Tramiel Tillman character saying to Spidey, we are faced with a danger that we can't control, one we can't even see. Certainly feels to me like he is speaking about the mutants. Now. That could be any number of other things. It just feels like we know definitively we're at a moment in the MCU where that is what we are moving toward.

Joanna Robinson (56:08)

Right.

Mallory Rubin (56:08)

That stretch of story. And so, like, these feel like these clues and signs and indications to me don't feel like reaches for us to try to connect to in a way that they did maybe five, ten years ago. His.

Joanna Robinson (56:20)

I really agree.

Mallory Rubin (56:20)

The captioning. If you turn the closed Captioning on. On YouTube on the trailer, by the way, we should say this trailer, like, obliterated, like, Every trailer record in the history of humanity. People seem hyped about this movie. And I didn't even say that at the beginning, but thought this trailer was great and I'm hyped.

Joanna Robinson (56:34)

I was like, this is awesome. I would say both trailers that we're talking about incredible trailers and also like Year of Zendaya. Is it not like it's. It's absolutely insane.

Mallory Rubin (56:44)

So wild that they're in the Odyssey and Spider man like two weeks apart. What a. What a July. My goodness, what a time. So if you turn on the closed captioning on YouTube on the trailer when you see this at the 150 mark, we are faced with a danger that we can't control. One we can't see. He is labeled as Bill. Bill. His character has not been identified fully, but he is. This seems reasonable to I think Marvel Comics fans to speculate that Bill is involved. Fact. William Metzger Department of Damage Control Anti Mutant Agenda So I think like they didn't have to put Bill in there. It feels like another. Like you guys probably know where this is heading and we're giving you. You know, you recently broke out the all time meme, Mr. Policeman. We gave you all the clues on how to. We could do it again right now. Yeah. And so that's. That's.

Joanna Robinson (57:35)

It feels very certain the way that Department of Damage Control has been employed in Spider man properties. And like Tramell Tillman is like a perfect casting for the Department of Damage.

Mallory Rubin (57:48)

Still good.

Joanna Robinson (57:50)

Let's go to the next part of my note. I flipped the notes around a little on you, but it makes sense. If we're talking about mutants, let's go into the mutation plot. Right? So like leaving potential Jean Grey and the X Men aside, big thing to leave aside. But let's leave that aside for a moment. We have a mutation. A stated mutation plot for Peter Parker. Right. And which I think is such like a thematically interesting idea. This is of course something that Spider man has dealt with in the comics on and off. You know, this is a classic Spidey plot. But this idea of this point in time and Tom Holland has talked about this for Peter Parker, like, you know, the end of no Way Home. Like, like shedding everything that he knew to go off on his own and become not Peter Parker, but just Spider man. Right? He's not really Peter Parker anymore. Right. Aunt May is dead. No one remembers him. He's just Spider Man. Is this movie about work, life, balance? I have a question and I hope it is. But this idea that he's grappling with what it means to go from a boy to a man, a high schooler into an adult living in New York City. And alongside of that sort of emotional coming of a different age storyline for him is this physical mutation, this organic, you know, this Tobey Maguire esque, organic webbing idea. A lot of connections, visual connections in this trailer to the Garfield movies and the Maguire movies and into the spider verse, you know, which is like a big reason why no Way Home was so popular with people. Was of course it felt like this interconnected Spidey verse. Let's lean in. And this trailer very much feels like it's leaning in. But this physical mutation going along with the emotional transformation of a young man into still a young man, but slightly older. And then we get this very intriguing shot at the 2 minute 12 second mark of Spider man with like all blacked out eyes. Is he mind controlled by potentially Jean Grey? Possibly. Is he mutating in some way? Probably. Arjun, our producer and plenty of the Internet are like, is this man Spider? Are we getting like man Spider? Which might mean we get multiple limbed Peter Parker. I don't know how I feel about that. But in the sort of like quote more grounded like Tom Holland Spider man movies that we're supposed to be getting. But how do you feel about this mutation plot in general and maybe do you have any theories about the 2 minute 12 second mark shot of Spidey?

Mallory Rubin (60:37)

Yeah, I'm into all of this. You know, I think that obviously it connects with the thing we'll talk about next, which is just this ongoing state of nobody remembering who Peter is. And that's just really fucking sad. Right. And there are some interesting glimpses in this trailer of maybe the pull that other people are feeling toward a certain, certain. Oh, a lot of pictures of spider man in MJ's apartment, et cetera. But in general, I think that this was another interesting way to me because like to be clear, Peter Parker is the idea of a mutation that's not the same as Mutants and the X Men. This is a different thing. But it is a clever. No, no, no, I'm not saying you're saying it, but like that's a clever way in the trailer to still create a kind of sense of like connectivity and parallel, parallel experience with like a thing inside of you is changing. This is like core to these characters and their comics origins and why so many people around the world love them and love to read about their lives. Right. Like you have already been through this thing and then you are changing again in some way. You know, one of the bits of the narration that we hear is spiders have three life cycles when better cycles can leave the spider vulnerable to threats. So this idea of like ongoing change after confronting this massive change of just becoming spider man in the first place, I think the man spider theories are interesting. And seeing the shift from needing the, you know, we got that. Great. This was all over the Internet too. The kind of side by side shot of Tony in his lab in the black tank top and then Tom Holland's Peter in this trailer and the black tank top. Like a very like visually coded Tony Stark connection. And still rooting this Peter in that relationship and that bond and that history. But also sort of saying like, you know, this suit, there's no tech, right? This isn't actually the like Iron Man's apprentice Spider man era anymore. Like he is changing in a number of different ways in ter, including how his power set functions in the mcu. I think like the sequence where he falls out of the window and he wakes up in the cocoon of webbing and he's like, oh shit. Oh my, oh my God. Like I'm not wearing my web shooters, what am I going to do? And then falls and then saves himself anyway. And you're like, holy shit. They're going to do the organic web shooting. Like this is this a wild moment? And the eye, the full pools of black in the eye. I think that there's a way to do the man spider thing which is more still rooted and grounded in this version of the story and doesn't necessarily feel like here are all of my many limbs and is more just like leaning into the idea of the spider subsuming the man.

Joanna Robinson (63:11)

And what, that's what I mean by work life balance.

Mallory Rubin (63:14)

Yeah, exactly. What the balance is, the humanity is.

Joanna Robinson (63:17)

You can't be all Spider man all the time. You have to be Peter Parker. Like if he's just obliterated the Peter Parker part of his life and he's just like, I'm just Spider man. And that is reflected in like the spider overtaking him. I kind of like that as a sort of, you know, we all have lessons to learn about work life balance. Why not?

Mallory Rubin (63:37)

Certainly, you know, I think there's like a really emotionally rich vein to tap there too. Because one of the things that we hear, you know, Peter say he's got this, right, this, the letter, there it is, it's back. And he's like reading parts of it in this trailer and we hear sometimes Spider man has to do the hard thing, even if it breaks Peter Parker's heart. And it's like, what if maintaining this sacrifice and this new reality that he opted into because it was a thing he felt was right and had to do to preserve the world around him has become. The pain is too. It's unbearable. The humanity is what makes it difficult. So then you have something like Bruce saying, if the DNA is mutating, it could be extremely dangerous. You have the actual, like, how is this a survivable thing, this evolution, this mutation? But also just like, well, what if Peter almost welcomes the suppressing of the humanity and the Peter inside of the Spider man because it's too hard to be Peter if he has to be Peter without MJ and without Ned and without the people he loves. Like, I think that would be a really beautiful story to explore. And what a great classic genre way to use the, like, actual manifestation of his powers and abilities to tell us how he's feeling inside like that. I, I'm really hyped for this movie.

Joanna Robinson (64:51)

We love a mute metaphor.

Mallory Rubin (64:52)

The.

Joanna Robinson (64:53)

The memory plot, which as you alluded to. So, like, we get a lot of sad yearning, which I, I love a year and always we get a lot of MJ and Ned inside of this trailer. But I am curious, with Jean Grey and Department of Damage Control and Frank and Bruce and a rogues gallery which we can list out later, how much room is there for MJ and Ned inside of this movie? Are we seeing a lot of the actual MJ and Ned scenes and they won't be a huge part of this movie? I would not be surprised in the year of Zendaya when she has so much shit to do. And there was also, and this is just like, I don't know the answer to this, but there was also a question of whether or not Zendaya would even be in this movie for a while as they were figuring out the shape of it and the contracts. And so Zendaya here, to a limited degree, I don't have an answer. I'm just asking questions. But I think it's entirely possible that they could just load up a bunch of the Zendaya stuff into the trailer, because that's what people want, is Tom Holland and Zendaya and Jacob, of course. So I have some questions about that. And then you wanted to call out who we see, I don't know, tucking MJ's hair behind her ear inside of this trailer.

Mallory Rubin (66:12)

Oh, my God. Ezra Bridger is here. Is here. I guess there's some, you know, Speculation of, like, who he is. Could he be playing Harry Osborne? Is that something that's going to happen in this movie? That would be, I think, very interesting and very cool. You do, I think, start to worry if he's. If he's playing someone as big as Harry, that there are just maybe too many characters in this movie. But we've had that concern with the Spider man movie before, and it has.

Joanna Robinson (66:38)

Where are you these days on no Way Home? Like, I. I know that, like, so here's like, the larger temp, I think, on no Way Home, which is that people, like, had the best fucking time in the theater and that they loved it and that there are perhaps some diminishing returns on rewatch for them. But that was like, a concern about no Way Home is like, are there just too many fucking characters, too many things going on in this movie? I've actually felt like I actually haven't rewatched no Way Home a lot. And so as a result, my brain. Brain has just cling. Is just clinging to the parts of the movie that I really like. So I actually think I have found myself liking it more as time has gone on because I'm only thinking about the parts that really worked for me. And I really liked mainly everything Andrew Garfield does. But, like, but. But just anecdotally, I feel like on rewatch, people aren't as high on no Way Home as they. As they were before. What do you. What are your thoughts on that?

Mallory Rubin (67:32)

I certainly haven't had any. Like, I haven't experienced any diminishment in my fondness for it, but I haven't. It's been a minute since I've watched it. I'll have to see, like, when we're closer to this movie and revisiting all

Joanna Robinson (67:43)

of it, how I. How I feel about it, but I.

Mallory Rubin (67:44)

I still really like it. And in general, the Spidey franchise is one of my favorite parts of the mcu and I think one of the most successful parts of the mcu. So I have. I have a lot of fondness for. For all of those films. I. Your question about how much MJ and Ned will be in the movie is a really interesting one because I. Okay, so in the sequel, to connect it back to Sadie Sink for a second. Yeah, my initial. I think, like, much of the. I guess the Jean thing was there as a theory right away, honestly, because there's been so much X Men casting rumor talk for so long that was out there as a possibility. If you have red hair and you're talented Enough to perform her, to maybe anchor a phase of the mcu. Maybe people are going to think you're Jean Grey. But for a while also it was like, could she be playing Gwen? And. And then there were also a lot of Harry casting rumors. And so I was like, not expecting MJ and Ned to be a big part of this movie because I thought we were going to be in like a Gwen Harry kind of really like, brand new day, transitional phase and sort of just the character set around Peter. This trailer, to me signals something so clearly distinct from that, which is like, no, the things that matter to Peter still matter to him. And like, yes, we have the, the flowers on May's grave and of course, the painful letter and just the, you know, the, the reinforcement that nothing has changed. They don't know who he is. Bruce Banner, when he goes to him, you know, in his Empire State University sweatshirt to ask for his help, does not know who he is. Like, even the Avengers don't know. Haven't. Haven't been brought into the loop of, like, who he is. That's kind of wild. I think that the fact that he's like, I've moved in across from you and I'm at your parties and I'm here, it's like, it makes me feel like they're actually going to be in the movie way more than I anticipated because this is still just like the set of people who are most important to him. And especially because of the MJ moments in this trailer were like, again, we have the. All of the stuff on the wall in their apartment, all of these pictures of Spider man behind Peter in that shot at the end. And it's like then when. When MJ and Dad are watching the news footage, Sheila giving Sheila here, Sheila everywhere in today's pod giving Spider man the key of the city. That look on MJ's face like, it feels to me like. Like she is remembering who he is or at least is drawn. Maybe this is just classic MJ Spidey stuff, but, like, maybe there's an awakening inside of her.

Joanna Robinson (70:00)

I think she remember my. My feeling would be she remembers, like, Spider man more than she remembers Peter Parker. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's something there. There's something that, you know, and she's smart and we loved watching her figure it out, like, in the first place. Place, you know, in Far From Home and stuff like that. So, like, yeah, all of that's interesting to me. I don't know. I'll be curious. I'll be curious. How much like Jean Gray, Sadie Sink feels like the female lead of this movie and how much Michelle Zendaya feels like the female lead of this movie. And not that there only needs to be one, but I'm just. I'm curious about that. Let's talk about. Let's talk about Sheila, but more importantly, let's talk about Spidey and Frank. Right? So, like, there is a ton of Daredevil Born again crossover here, right? Because we have like. Like Sheila here giving Spidey the key to the city feels like a slight potential Daredevil Born Again spoiler to me because, like, I feel like there's no way this season ends with Fisk still in charge if Spidey is being given. Spidey, a masked vigilante, is being given the key to the city by Sheila. So I like this idea. A lot of people have been, like, throwing around this season 1 episode 4 quote from Sheila from Daredevil Born Again, where she says to Daniel Blake, I was here before you and before Fisk, and I will be here long after you're both gone. So if, like, the Fisk administration collapses by the end of season two, Daredevil born again, but Sheila's still here handing out keys to the city. It's an ending I'm kind of interested in. The hand is also here. Again, this is a very packed movie, but the hand is also here, which is such a Daredevil sort of connective tissue moment. And then, then obviously we'll talk about Frank Castle, but there's like a lot of rumors that Charlie Cox is this movie. Charlie Cox says he is not in this movie, but so too did Andrew Garfield and Tony Maguire.

Mallory Rubin (71:52)

So to me, as a thing to, I would say clearly lie about, given that it makes complete sense for them to interact and is established that they have interacted. Like Charlie Cox's Matt Murdock was in the last Spider man movie. Now it's like, of course. Of course there's the whole nobody remembers who this guy is aspect here. Sure. But the idea of them reconnecting as Spider man and Daredevil or Peter and Matt in some way or all of the above, whatever feels like so plausible that I don't know. I never believe any of these. Of course, I understand they have to manufacture this fiction and tell us that they're not in these movies, but this is one where it's like, that would just be, I think, fine to know that Charlie Cox is in this movie if he is. I know.

Joanna Robinson (72:35)

I guess they just want that moment. Moment that that same, like, holy Andrew Garfield and Toby Maguire here moment in the theater. But I don't think, like, to your point, Charlie Cox has already been in a Spider man movie, so it, like, doesn't feel. And also have a Spider man minor Daredevil born again character in Sheila is here. And then of course, Frank Castle is here. So, like, this Punisher, Spider man relationship inside of this trailer is so fun. We get like a really fun, cheeky, like, basically Captain America language moment where we get to sort of like edit Frank Castle to make him Spider man movie friendly with the web on the mouth. But, like, this is what Holland said talking about. He says the relationship between Spider man and the Punisher is so funny. And it changed a lot. It evolved as we were shooting because John and I would improvise. It started as this relationship of two people kind of hate each other, I guess. And as we started improvised, it became this kind of big brother, little brother rivalry. It might be my favorite dynamic I've ever seen with Spider Man. So that's very incredible, intriguing and exciting. What is funny, though, is going back through how Holland has talked about this movie. He also said that big brother, little brother dynamic about Bruce Banner in this movie. So this seems to be just sort of like a Tom Holland go to.

Mallory Rubin (73:47)

It's good. Better to stick to a couple talking points than accidentally spoil all the things they don't want him to.

Joanna Robinson (73:52)

For Tom, sure. But something that Feige said a while ago about putting Dustin Daniel Cretin in charge of this movie is that he had all the. These, like, Marvel comic book covers that he was excited to recreate, including, like, Punisher and Spidey covers. He already recreated the COVID The very first Spidey story. In this trailer at the 2 minute, 8 second mark, there's Spidey carrying a, you know, a guy through the air. And it's like the. The original Spider man comic cover. So, you know, obviously these Marvel directors love to, like, flash their comic book bonafides and we love that for them. But, like, there is so much rich, fertile Punisher and Spidey territory. This is a really fun mode to find Frank Castle in, like, because Punisher. I was not a huge fan of the Netflix Punisher series. I've said that before. So Punisher in his sort of, like, grim, dark Punisher place. Not my fave Punisher bouncing off someone else who is not in that same space. Really fun. And, like, I'm really excited for him here as a counter to Peter. What did you think of him in the trailer here.

Mallory Rubin (75:05)

I mean, I just. I pretty much always love Jon Garthal as Frank Castle, Punisher. Like, I just think he's great in the role and really perfect for it. And even when the episodes that he's in are not good, he's still so kind of mesmerized to me. Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (75:21)

And I loved this.

Mallory Rubin (75:25)

The humor of the, like, about to say motherfucker and the webbing of his mouth. Go home. Like, all that was very cute. I think the vibe that we are going to get to see Franken, to your point, is just really interesting and I'm looking forward to it. What I really liked most about it was, I mean, obviously, like, the broader framing of this section. The Daredevil ties. Interesting. And this stretch of story, how all these things are going to connect. Interesting. I'm most compelled by, like, the. What the hell, Frank? You just hit me with a van. Quit your whimpering. Clearly they're in each other's lives. There's just like a rhythm to the way they know each other interacting that is like they are present in. On the streets of New York together. And so I'm kind of like, oh, it's fascinating to me to think about, especially in this moment of Peter's life, in this circumstance where he is spending his time watching videos of the people he misses and who don't. They don't remember who he is and trying to, like, introduce himself anew to the people that he longs to be with. That, like, Frank Castle is a steady and a constant when the rest of his time is like watching tiktoks of his girlfriend who doesn't know who he is and going to his beloved aunt's grave. Like, Frank. Frank being the person who's there in your life when all these other people are missing is fascinating.

Joanna Robinson (76:35)

Frank and Professor Banner, like, these are like, you know, a spider man all alone in the world is a dangerous thing, you know, and so like, of course. But like, he does have community. It's just like different community. And of course, from the very beginning, from the. From Tom Holland's very first audition, this idea of, like, we're going to pair Tom Holland Spidey with an elder statement, statesman of the mcu, be the. That Tony Stark, Stephen Strange, Bruce Banner, Frank Castle, you know, so these sort of like dad figures for or like older brother, if you prefer figures for Peter Parker is a hallmark of this franchise. But. And then I love seeing Bruce here. I love that Bruce Banner's now a professor at the fictional Empire State University, as you mentioned. And I Wrote the. So excited to see that Peter has an Empire State University sweatshirt. Does that mean he's going to school again? Is this sort of like, does Peter Parker exist as a student at Empire State University? Or did he just put that on in order to go?

Mallory Rubin (77:39)

That's what I want in the classroom.

Joanna Robinson (77:40)

That's what I hope.

Mallory Rubin (77:41)

Me too. Me too. I hope that Peter, one of our great minds, you know, genuinely a bright kid who loves to learn, is at school, studying in college and not just watching tiktoks of. Of his best friend and girlfriend talk about how much they love to be at their school.

Joanna Robinson (77:57)

Maybe, maybe that's how this ends. Maybe how the movie ends is like Peter, who realizes that he needs to be Peter Barker as much as he needs to be Spider man. Like in roles in school or something like that.

Mallory Rubin (78:07)

That would be great.

Joanna Robinson (78:08)

And maybe the hoodie was just like, part of him trying to get in there.

Mallory Rubin (78:11)

Yeah, like, I feel like it's possible.

Joanna Robinson (78:12)

That'd be really funny. If he's just like, grabs a hoodie, like webs a hoodie from somewhere and it's just sort of like, I belong here in this classroom. As if you couldn't just like walk in, walk in wearing your street clothes and also pass as a student.

Mallory Rubin (78:24)

I, I think it's possible that he's. Yeah, that's a version of a disguise for him to infiltrate. But it would be really nice if he looked at it later and was like, no, I can do this. I can just live a life. That would be great. But maybe he's just there taking glasses. What literature classes do we think Peter Parker. Parker is taking? Who knows?

Joanna Robinson (78:43)

Oh, women's literature. Okay, so to recap. Yeah, yeah. Frank Castle, Bruce Banner. I'm in.

Mallory Rubin (78:50)

I'm in.

Joanna Robinson (78:50)

Jean Grey. I'm in.

Mallory Rubin (78:52)

Definitely land.

Joanna Robinson (78:53)

Michelle in.

Mallory Rubin (78:54)

Ned. In. Ezra Bridger.

Joanna Robinson (78:57)

According to this trailer. Scorpion, Tarantula, Boomerang. Tombstone. Yes. Department of Damage Control. The Hand. Yeah. And his inner demons. These are all the things that Spidey is potentially fighting this season. Now I'm not that stressed about it in, in the way that like, some people are like, ah, shades of Spider Man 3. Which was again, a concern about no way Home. Because like some of these Charact, Boomerang, Tombstone, like, whatever. These can be like very quick montage esque sort of things. If we're, if we're, if we're montaging through four years of Spider man as, as MJ and Ned complete their schooling at mit, like there's plenty of room for Rando fights, Scorpion and you know, I'm. I'm a. I'm a huge fan of. Of Scorpion personally of Michael Mando specifically. So like if we get Michael Mando, if we get Mike, my better Call Saul fave like some more screen time. He seems like with the mech suit he has a little bit more going on than everyone else. But like, you know, I'm not that worried about all the rogues gallery, but there does seem to be a lot of movie in this movie in general. So, you know, how are you feeling?

Mallory Rubin (80:08)

I'm in a very similar place. Scorpion is exciting because we've been waiting for this return, you know, in a meaningful way since homecoming. And like even just him getting all line in the trailer feels like a little way to signal to us that maybe he has. Has perhaps it is like two scenes, two and a half scenes instead of. But I do agree, I think that like Tarantula, Boomerang, Tombstone, possibly even the hand that this feels to me like we're going to be like getting flashes of the people Spider man is fighting.

Joanna Robinson (80:38)

I do think that there have been some interviews that like Tombstone is going to be like a slight, A bigger.

Mallory Rubin (80:43)

Yes, Tombstone is like in the cast for sure. But I think we're going to move in through just some flashes of sequences and then like, like not have any of those characters necessarily feel like they are the primary villain because I do think that I. I just feel like Tramell Tillman and Damage Control are going to be the. The oppositional force. The force that Peter and Spider man have to contend with if. And the fact that Spider man is sitting across from Bill, from Tramell Tillman's Bill in his Spider man suit. And that indicates perhaps that he is like working with or for Damage Controller has been brought into a sit and then has to rebel against maybe their

Joanna Robinson (81:21)

is There would be interesting way that Jean Grey, whether she's named or not, is positioned as the antagonist until they real like he realizes like we're not so different, you and I. You're a mutant. I'm going through a mutation.

Mallory Rubin (81:36)

That's what feels likely to me. They're like, help us with this problem. And then he's like, wait, actually isn't this the person I should help? That'd be great.

Joanna Robinson (81:43)

This hot girl. I don't know.

Mallory Rubin (81:44)

All right.

Joanna Robinson (81:45)

It'll be great. Okay. So that has been. I can't wait us marinating in the world of the MC you but the year Zendaya continues a pace. It's not just the Odyssey. Of course we have Doom part Three, not to mention the drama. There's a lot of enjoyable Zendaya content this year. Let's go now to our Dune Part 3 trailer. Medium dive. All right, so quick facts, right? December 18, 2026, is the release of the. This is just like, so our year. And I'm so excited for us. There's just so much going on. I'm throwing thrilled. Same day as Avengers Doomsday, as we've been talking about for a while. Dune won the battle for the IMAX dreams, however. So Avengers Doomsday, you're gonna have to see it in a different format. The IMAX belongs to Denis Villeneuve. So any. Any feelings on that?

Mallory Rubin (82:31)

Yes, I. If it had to be one or the other because they were going to both stay on the same day, I'm glad it's Dune. That's pretty easy call for me. It's honestly genuinely uncomplicated. I think this is like. Like, I'm hopeful that Doomsday will be good. I think this is, like, pretty embarrassing for the MCU to have, like, hugely planted the flag with this big, showy countdown clock. Puff peacocked, puffed out the feathers and flex. Like, we're not gonna move. You move for us. And then it's like, not only did Dune not move, they got imax. It's just embarrassing. So that's just like.

Joanna Robinson (83:06)

It's not just embarrassing. It's like. I mean, it is.

Mallory Rubin (83:09)

You're not the primary force in pop culture anymore. It's like a diminishment.

Joanna Robinson (83:14)

Huge diminishment.

Mallory Rubin (83:15)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (83:15)

Just sort of like, can you imagine in 2019, an Avengers movie being, you know, unthinkable, cowed by a literary adaptation? Anyway, okay, so here we go. Dune Part 3. This is what Denis Villeneuve is calling, quote, the epic conclusion to his Dune saga, even though obviously there are many more books. But this is the last book focused primarily on Paul, and so perhaps this is Denis Paul saga rather than his, like, Dune saga, if you prefer.

Mallory Rubin (83:45)

Feels like the end of that might be a great time to do a

Joanna Robinson (83:47)

Paul of Fame, huh?

Mallory Rubin (83:48)

At the end of the Paul saga, like we always intended to.

Joanna Robinson (83:52)

Almost like it was the right move all along. And this was always the plan, and there's always been a plan. Maybe if we tattoo our faces and just start going around spreading the word that this was always the plan, then, like, everyone will bend the knee and believe. Okay, so the source material here is mostly Doom Messiah, but it appears there might be sort of like a. What I'm calling a smidge smudge bleed. Of children of Dune in the mix Scare just based on some. Some casting stuff and stuff like that. But here's. And we've been talking about this since the beginning because we are Dune heads. But I'm just going to read a quote from Brian Herbert, Frank Herbert's son, who wrote the intro to Dune, an edition of Dune Messiah that I have. So this is in his intro he's said the second novel in the series. So Doom Messiah is the second novel. Doom Part 1, 2 those movies adapted one novel. This is the second novel, but the third movie. The second novel in the series flipped over the carefully crafted hero myth of Paul Moad and revealed the dark side of the Messiah phenomenon that appeared to be so glorious in Dune. Many readers didn't want that dose of reality. They couldn't stand the demotion of their beloved charismatic champion. So this is what we've been talking about from the beginning is that

Mallory Rubin (85:05)

Frank

Joanna Robinson (85:05)

Herbert wrote these books as an intentional critique of sort of the one hero narrative, the savior narrative, the Messiah narrative, all that sort of stuff like that. And that is what we are getting now. This is sort of like where we were headed all along here in Dune Part 3, Dune Messiah. Denis has been very clear from the beginning to set those expectations about this movie. Hopefully priming audiences to not be shocked and surprised by what they find here. But this is what he said. Did the big IMAX reveal the trailer? A bunch of the trades were there. So these quotes are sort of pulled from the deadline write up and the variety write up and stuff like that. But here's what he said at that release. He said it will be a very different film, very different. A doom movie, but with a different tone, with a different rhythm, with a different pace. It's a more action packed and more tense film, more muscular than the other two, I will say. And it's a movie that takes place many years after the first two films. A bit like the book Dune Messiah. It gives new insight on what happened to public Atreides. So there's a time gap 17 years right in the film. So yeah, Spider man four years later, Doom part three, 17 years later. Where we see Paul dealing. This is Denis again. Where we see Paul dealing with the consequences of having too much power and him trying to figure out how to get out of the cycle of violence. And of course he's an emperor who can see the future. So he's kind of invisible. 17 year time jump. Anyone freaked out about old age, age, makeup? Denis doesn't seem that worried about it, right? He's just sort of like we're not doing a massive like aging process on the actors.

Mallory Rubin (86:36)

What do you make of to the extent that because again we'll just let's remind people we're going to do a very, very quick just a few minutes we're going to talk about doing a lot over the next few months before we get to watch this movie in December. This will not be the only preview conversation we have. We'll do a few minutes of book spoiler talk at the end. So maybe if you want to save your answer to this so then what he given hey we're we're. This is just our cast. We've got Timmy Shalamet and and Zendaya and Pew and like he long he took it a challenge that already existed with the time jump and made it bigger. It's 12 years in the text and he made it 17. What what is your do you have

Joanna Robinson (87:13)

a theory for why not not that you very strong theory but not outside.

Mallory Rubin (87:18)

We'll come back to it. We will come back to to it then.

Joanna Robinson (87:21)

So yeah, 17 years later is where we find these characters.

Mallory Rubin (87:27)

I will say I remember just the kind of opening note reminder of Frank Herbert's desire to interrogate the idea of the chosen one, the Messiah, the savior, the figure of lore and prophecy. I think that and like you mentioned we've been talking about this across the coverage of both of the prior films but that was one of the things that I thought like Villeneuve did so undeniably well was like signal his intention to even just the way he talked about why he wanted to get to adapt this book and think about these as connected. Like I will be interested to see what the response is when the movie comes out and if there are because there were. There was obviously when we covered the second film there was a. There was a little bit of a oh, is Paul supposed to be like.

Joanna Robinson (88:15)

But it wasn't even. It wasn't even that there was that.

Mallory Rubin (88:17)

Yeah.

Joanna Robinson (88:18)

And there was also from our beloved column like no, the film did not do a good job doing that. And I disagree like I I agree with you. I think the film again we talked about like the Anakin Skywalker murder strut like all this sort of stuff that that Paul is doing at the end that feels very like oh coded. But some of our incredibly brilliant media savvy pals who saw the movie did not agree that that the movie paved the way and they thought it was more of like a white savior story. And so the movie paved the way.

Mallory Rubin (88:48)

Would you say I paved the way. Would you scream it as Paul Muadiba Traides screamed it to the assembled in the city? I paved the way.

Joanna Robinson (88:56)

I'm with you. I'm with you. I thought he did a great job. But there are some people who, you know. And so if that is true of our, of our pals, our colleagues who again are very media literate and very savvy, very smart. What about the more casual filmgoer who like did not spend weeks after with like arguing about the movie and debating its merits and all this sort of stuff like that to have like their book reader pals be like, well, actually, blah, blah. So like, you know, where will they be as they head into this third?

Mallory Rubin (89:24)

I'm so curious to see how that goes when we, when we all watch the film together on IMAX and then go to a smaller screen to see Avengers Doomsday? Because yeah, I think. And maybe it's something that will. People's relationship to it will change a little bit as they revisit than the prior films. Because I think whether it is with Paul directly and Paul and Jessica and those, those, those, those devastating, withering arguments, that's not hope in the way that Paul had to succumb to the, the, the defeat, the loss, the active mourning and grieving that he is exuding that is oozing off of him, that he is outright stating when he makes the decisions that he makes, knowing where it is heading. The. And, and as we talked about a lot of the time, particularly the way that the Chinese is deployed in the second film, the despondence and despair, to see this thing happening is I think really signaling that this is a interrogation and a lament of what happens when people think that you are the Messiah. And if you, for all of the reasons that are explored across the, these stories, even if you did not want to do this thing, allow yourself to become that right? To paradise, to the jihad. We'll look at what happens.

Joanna Robinson (90:34)

So let's talk there. Well, let's talk about. So the realities of war, right? The, the quote we get in the trailer is war feeds on itself, right? And Denis says about this, like, if the first movie was a. More of a contemplation, like a boy exploring a new world, and the second one being a war movie, this one is more action packed, intense. We get a lot of like the horrors of war imagery inside of this trailer. And so yeah, to Remind People, Part 2 ends with Paul's instructions to Stilgar, which is like, lead them to paradise, right? Jessica says to the spice babe, Aleeyah, inside of her belly. At the end of Part two, your brother attacks the great houses. The holy war begins. And then earlier in the film, when Paul is explaining to Chani, sort of like, why he does not want to go south, right, these visions that he's having, he says, nothing's clear. It's only fragments in the south. I'm following someone. And it triggers a holy war. Millions and millions of people starving to death because of me. And Gurney said to Paul, in that movie, your path leads to war. You know that. So war is coming. What will you do when you feel its breath upon your neck? So here we are, 17 years of war. The person sort of like most embodying that, the character most embodying that, other than sort of. Of Paul saying it expressly, is Javier Bardem as Stilgar, as his, like, sort of main general inside of this effort. And we see him fighting. And Bardem has talked about, like, the realities of power and having power for Stilgar. Like, you know, he's the number one believer inside of Part two. And then it's just sort of like, what are the realities of becoming the general for someone who is declared declared an intergalactic jihad holy war? What did you make of the way in which sort of like the. The horrors of war are depicted here in this first trailer?

Mallory Rubin (92:28)

I think that this is as elemental to what Frank Herbert is interested in exploring as what happens when we deify people and allow them to take on the. To use the parlance of the text, the godhead, right? To exist as a figure of reverence who is worshiped as a deity, not just a man. And when that manifests direction and guidance and control and worship and violence, it's the most destructive force in the world. The. This is one of the things about the time jump, whether it's the 17 years of the film or 12 years of the book, that is really, really brilliant. Is that, like, the story is less. We are now going to watch this Holy War, a movie about the holy war. And more like, to your point, this has been happening. It has wrecked the wreckage. It dapples every star. There's a line in the. In the. In the text, Paul looking up at the stars. A man must be half mad to imagine he could rule even a teardrop of that volume. The idea of the emperor, a figure who Paul challenged and reviled and then had to become like, this is a tragic story about destruction at scale, right? And so those moments in the trailer where we see, like, the charred hands reaching up from the muddied ground, like this idea of just a mass grave. And the little glimpses that we get very quickly here. And I'm sure we'll see more in the subsequent trailers. I imagine we'll get two, three trailers ahead of the film of different glimpses clearly visually displayed to us because of the costuming. This is a different planet. This is a different. Right. You get a sense very quickly through that visual shorthand of, like, right. We're everywhere. This is not just set here on. We're not just a ruckus or paladin. Like, the scope of the war is not something that could be contained. You know, there are, like. We don't have to say here what they are, but there are, like, body counts in the book that we get that are in the billions.

Joanna Robinson (94:31)

Upsetting.

Mallory Rubin (94:32)

It's horrifying.

Joanna Robinson (94:34)

I would say Paul's number is not. You know, I don't know what his approval rating is, but I would not give him a high approval rating based on those numbers anyway.

Mallory Rubin (94:42)

And, like, the scarring on the characters faces in the trailer, I thought the posters were the other thing. I mean, these were some of the best movie posters that I have ever seen there, I thought, just, like, chilling and amazing. But they also are like, oh, everyone's in a pretty rough place and a pretty rough shape and really has been going through it. And they signal some things that if you're a book reader, you're like, oh, boy. Wow. They just put that on the trailer. Interesting.

Joanna Robinson (95:03)

They slapped that right in the trailer, right on the poster. Um, I. I love that they put that on the poster, actually. But I. I do think it's interesting. Like, I want to talk about some of the. Some of the intentional war movie visuals that Denis is deploying here, but also, like, inside of this trailer, we get shaved head Paul. And then we. But then we see, like, presumably, I would guess, flashback Paul. We get the long curly. We get the Atreides uniform. We get the, like. It's not season one because he's got the blue spice eyes and Jessica's got the tattoos on her faces. But in that scene with tattoos, he's in his season one. I said season one, the first film sort of costume. And look so like that passage of time is so back to the imagery of war. You very smartly denoted this idea of, like, we see people in very specific cultures, cultural garb that indicates to us that this is a different culture that Stilgar and his troops are wiping out. And specifically, we get this sort of, like, East Asian influence Look, we've got some pieces of armor that look more like samurai coated Chinese coat is all like East Asian sort of melange. That's very much like what Denis has done with the Fremen of just sort of like, let's melange a bunch of cultures into something which is what Frank Herbert did. Frank in his text. So I think that like. But I think specifically this sort of like East Asian imagery feeds into. When Frank Herbert talked about Dune, he was a Vietnam War correspondent. So we talked a lot about the Vietnam War. He talked a lot about the charismatic leaders that led us into the Vietnam War. When he talked about the dangers of a charismatic leader, his favorite person to talk about was jfk, actually, because he's like, everyone loves jfk. Everyone loves Camelot. But, you know, I. I have quotes here I don't read. Need to read the full thing. But he was like, but JFK leads us directly into the Vietnam. The Vietnam War is one of the worst morasses that we ever found ourselves in. So, like, that was something that was very much on Frank Herbert, Vietnam war correspondent's mind as he is crafting the ongoing Dune narrative. And so when Denis first introduces Baron Harkonnen In Dune Part 1, he Very explicitly, and he has given a lot of interviews about this, invoked the image of Marlon Brando as Kurlin Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. Like, he's very. He was from the start using Vietnam War film imagery inside the story. So when we inside of the trailer get Paul Muadib, Atreides, Harkonnen mopping his bald head, it is both Harkonnen coded and Colonel Curse Vietnam War coded. And so I'm just like, really interested. I think part my of prep for this movie is gonna be to sort of like revisit some of these, like, iconic Vietnam War films to sort of remind myself of the grammar that Denis is actively engaging with. But like the charred bodies and the mud that you mentioned, there's just like a lot of moments that I was just sort of like, it's very clear what he is trying to depict here. And obviously he has a lot of options outside of the Vietnam War for like global atrocities that have happened. But. But for what directly inspired Frank Herbert. I think it's. This is like the conflict to look the closest at, which I think is really interesting.

Mallory Rubin (98:24)

Great flag.

Joanna Robinson (98:28)

Paul's enemies. The more I fight, the more our enemies fight back. What do you want to say about sort of the. What is set up here in terms of the grand conspiracy? It's always a Little questionable to me what is and is not a book spoiler. So I'm curious, like, what you think we can say about this sort of conspiracy around Paul Atreides?

Mallory Rubin (98:45)

Um. Hmm. Good question. I think it's okay to say that this is like, just the kind of premise of this slice of the story. It is the premise.

Joanna Robinson (98:55)

It's the very beginning of the book. It is the premise.

Mallory Rubin (98:57)

Yeah. People aren't happy with Paul. Paul's been a lot of enemies and a lot of mistakes, and he knows that. Which is just a fascinating place to find this figure. I. I am so interested to see. So we've been saying for some time since Dune Part 2. You know, Dune Messiah is pretty weird. Not as weird as the later books, but pretty weird. And there are a lot of. And, like, how ready are people going to be for that? But also, how will Denis Villeneuve, like, present that? Because he has a certain style that, like, roots and grounds even these very strange things. So I just honestly.

Joanna Robinson (99:43)

For example. Yeah, like. For example. Right. He's like, you know what? Yes. Is Aliyah, right? Yes. You know, sort of like a toddler who speaks in full sentences. Who. Who stabs the baron in the book. Yes. We're not gonna do that.

Mallory Rubin (99:56)

Exactly.

Joanna Robinson (99:57)

Actually, that's a bridge too far. So we'll figure out how to deploy Aaliyah differently.

Mallory Rubin (100:01)

You know, perfect example. And like, of course we have actually the film version of, like, David lynch was like, here is this eternal child. And when they will say the abomination, you will understand.

Joanna Robinson (100:15)

Yeah.

Mallory Rubin (100:16)

So those kinds of. So when I watched this trailer for the first time and saw this, You put sarcophagus in the notes. I think that's the. I was going to say coffin, but I think that's a better way to this very notable transport. And I was like, holy. Edric's in the movie. Like, this is exciting. A Spacing Guild navigator. Is the look going to be exactly like it was in the lynch film? Clearly not. How will. How. How much. How fish forward versus, like, humanoid.

Joanna Robinson (100:51)

Right.

Mallory Rubin (100:52)

Edric B. We'll find out. I don't know.

Joanna Robinson (100:54)

We'll see.

Mallory Rubin (100:54)

We didn't get a good look.

Joanna Robinson (100:55)

Let's talk about this. So, like, we see the sarcophagus, which, like, some people think is something else, but I agree with you. I think this is. There's a tank that a character named Edric who is a Space Guild navigator, who is started as a human, and then just turns out when you. When you marinate yourself in spice goo for a long time, things happen. To you. So he's a bit more machine than men now. More fish than men now, perhaps. And so like the question of whether or not Edric was going to be in this movie, especially because there has not been any casting announcement for him, was like the question and still hasn't. So we, so we do not have, you know, we know, for example, of course, that Robert Pattinson is playing Scytale. And I'm very excited for that. I love the character of Scytale in the book. And so like, you know, that's clear. But Edric has not been cast. So is this going to be like a surprise? Cool casting. Sort of like Anya Taylor Joy was a surprise as Alia in the second movie, or is this going to be like, you know, a fish band? And so it doesn't believe in that

Mallory Rubin (101:58)

chance that Edric is basically there in his container as like a way for somebody to. To say Edric being here, like, blocks Paul's ability to know because Paul, part of Paul's power is like, I. I've seen it all. Quasar Solra, not sure if you've heard right. And so like a Spacing Guild Navigator, like Edric is a screen that between Paul's access and awareness to plots against him. I think it's possible that that's sort of like basically alluded to and he's present in that way. Certainly R. Pats one of the greats here as Scytale. I agree. Is a thrill. I think the look is amazing. That's another one though, where I'm interested in like, well, okay, he's a face dancer, right? So the Thalaxu are here. Great. We got a little glimpse of face dancer, Dune prophecy stuff which, like, basically, I frankly don't remember very much about that show, including exactly how that all went.

Joanna Robinson (102:52)

Nor do I care to.

Mallory Rubin (102:53)

We got some of it. I don't know that that will in any way inform how it goes here. But I'm like, you don't cast Robert Pattinson to not have him be the one in the bulk of his scenes,

Joanna Robinson (103:02)

but also sometimes we'll see.

Mallory Rubin (103:04)

Yeah, he's a face dancer.

Joanna Robinson (103:06)

The face dancer for people who haven't read the books and did not watch Dim Prophecy. That's okay, you don't have to. This is like a partial inspo for George R.R. martin's Faceless Man. So like, if you think of Jaqen H', Ghar, that's sort of like what you can expect from Scytale, the Talaxu, shapeshifting assassins, conspirators deeply hated in the galaxy in general. And so like. But Pattinson about his character, right? This is his quote. You can't really tell whose side he's on. That's kind of what makes him interesting. I wouldn't say he's a conventional bad guy as such. He might even be a good guy. Who knows? I will also find out when I see the movie. It's an extremely fun character to play. And the look of it is extraordinary. The look of it is extraordinary whether he means the movie or his own thing, but. So you've got the Bene Gesserit who have always, you know, abomination, like, are not pro. Paul, Princess Irulan who has been in league with the Bene Gesserit from when we first met her. You've got Edric, a Space Guild. Space Guild navigator who's like, let the spice flow, baby. And I don't like what Paul's doing. And you've got the Tlaxu side tale. So you've got a lot of interesting, fun people. Pretty anti Paul in general.

Mallory Rubin (104:12)

I'm really excited for, you know, something that we talked about a lot. We both love both of the first two films. I mean, I just. I love this franchise. I love these movies. I love all of Denis Villeneuve's masterpieces movies. I think these are incredible. I like two a little bit more than one, but I think they're both great. One of the things we talked about when we covered the first one was how, like, we thought it was astonishingly good and accomplished, but there was less of the kind of like, political theater and political intrigue that is present in the book that we love so much. And this is a great way to. Through that framing that you. That you shared in those. In those Villeneuve quotes, you shared about how he's thinking about the kind of like, genre that this film exists in and the way this part of the story is being deployed. The idea of, like, the. The different schools that dominate and drive the course of history in this fictional universe working in concert in this slice of the story. And when can that alignment remain intact against a shared enemy or threat? And when do their ambitions compete with each other is just like a really kind of interesting thing as a. As a. A premise. I'm so curious to see with the slacks are just really interesting in general as a slice of the story. Very excited about that. Scytel's a great character. I agree. I'm so curious to see how often it is Pattinson's face versus, like, him Shape Shifting and inhabiting another form.

Joanna Robinson (105:44)

It feels like he got, you know, he's the, you know, the sound bite that's gone everywhere. Right. Is like the fact that when he was making the drama with Zendaya, the A24 movie that they have that's coming out, and he was like, hey, how can I get one of those Dune movies? He got a call about being the Dune movies, but that cousin came kind of like a little late. So like that. That is the question to me of just sort of like if he's not. If his face is not the main face that is being used for his character, but is like a fun face also, as many people on social media have been having a fun time with. They're like, how weird is this voice going to be? Robert Pattinson, lover of a weird voice. How weird does he get to go with Scytale? You know, the brakes are off on this one. That's Paul's enemies. The more I fight, the more our enemies fight back. And we get in rapid succession, we see the Bene Gesserit, we see Edric's sarcophagus, we see Scytale. Very exciting. This other quote, I'm doing the best I can to protect my family. Here we have Saint Aaliyah of the night. Anya Taylor Joy is here. 17 years older. Right. So that's part of the 17 year time jump, I think is like to believably cast Anya Taylor Joy as Aliyah. 17 years. 17 years is. Is actually young for how old that actress is. So guess it's tough to say we're doing our best.

Mallory Rubin (107:00)

She's 12. Yeah, yeah.

Joanna Robinson (107:02)

Challenging 12 year old Aaliyah, it's fine. But. But because once again, when you get. If you think being marinated in spice goo in a sarcophagus is tough on you, in the womb is even tougher. So Aaliyah comes out with just like way too much noise going on in her head. She's just not quite. She's got a lot going on, but she's very, very loyal to Paul. Paul is like her number one. And so we've got Paul's enemies, but Paul's ally is his sister Aliyah. And so we get great shots of Anya Taylor Joy in this trailer. We get her at war. We get her with forehead to forehead with Paul in these really cool lullaby into war chant sort of musicality that goes throughout the trailer. Really incredible. Really pulse pounding stuff. And then we get. I think, I think the shot of the trailer is Alia at her temple. What is called Aleeyah's fane. And that's Anja Taylor Joy in these billowing white, incredible, you know, diaphanous robes in the wind in front of this giant temple that's been built for Alia that is like, looks like the mouth of the Sandworm behind her, like just. Is this like, just like another iconic, incredible Dune set piece. Dune prophecy, TV show wishes, sort of like moment. But it's just like. I mean, it is just one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And I don't want, like, again, I don't want to spoil this for people who haven't read the books, but I just think like all of the language around Alia and what you were talking about before, this sort of like myth making around Paul and his sister, St. Alia of the Knife. I don't know if they'll call her that because, you know, she didn't stab the Baron with, you know, as a toddler as she does in the book. So I don't know if she'll get her of the knife designation. But like the Atreides siblings as these, like God King and Queen of this empire. I mean, tough, tougher Princess Irulan than she is. Not the one DF she's used to

Mallory Rubin (109:18)

tough breaks, that one. I just can't wait for all of this. I'm so interested to see, see how it goes, you know, if people are like, oh, I'm really trying to wrap my mind around what it means to be born with the complete knowledge of everything. Just, you know, little nugget is that she's like, in the book, you know, I knew my father the way my mother did. A little bit of the little Targaryen energy with this stretch of the story

Joanna Robinson (109:49)

in general, the Harkonnens are my God. One of the shots, like right next to Alia at her temple at the Faint, are all these pilgrims sort of like looking up and they're, they're sort of being bathed in water. And there's this quote from the book. Muad'dib spends water like a madman. Like this idea of just sort of like a raucous desert planet and there's water being like rained down on these people. Fascinating shit. All right, Lady Jessica, my wife, we see Paul say, how did father do this and do it? And she says, your father never started a war. And I'm just like, lady Jessica, frankly, outrageous. Lady Jessica, are you talking about? Frankly, I'm just, yeah, I saw Dude Part one and Part Two, and we know that Lady Jessica was the one Stirring up the prophecy and. And kicking all this and pushing Paul into this role as a way to protect their family, right? Like, that's. Her mentality is like, I will engage in this Lisa Nalgaib sort of narrative and I will put Paul in place here so that we can be protected and we can be in power. But holy shit, it came with a whole holy war. Fuck. But Jessica being like, well, you started a war. Your father didn't is one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard. And I love this for Lady Jessica because she is nothing if not a complicated bitch. So thank you, Lady Jessica, for that moment in this trailer. I was fascinating. And also, I just think that, like, to your point of Aaliyah being like, I knew my father like my mother did, the way in which Leto, our beloved Oscar Isaac, is sort of the shadow that looms over the trailer. We'll talk about the Chani Paul conversation. We see the ducal signet ring being passed from one person to another. And here Jessica and Paul are talking about him. And I just love that as like a, you know, legacy. And Paul and all of that is very important to the character, but also as like a. As a way to connect the third film to the first film. Like this key figure who you have not seen since the opening, like, scenes of the first movie is here in everyone's mind still. And this is all part of one story that we're telling here, I just think is like, really, really cle.

Mallory Rubin (112:11)

Yeah, I agree. I think that the. That was very notable as a framing device and a through line and just like a takeaway from. From the trailer. And I think that these reminders of Leto were deployed very effectively in the second film too. You know, that just still my favorite sequence of any of the films to date. That harrowing Paul speech, you know, it starts with that before he is like. I mean, it starts with the quiet moment of taking out.

Joanna Robinson (112:38)

Out that.

Mallory Rubin (112:38)

That. That ducal ring and saying, you know, this was my father's. I am Paul Muad'Dib, a tradies duke of Arrakis. Right? And so of Arrakis to root himself, to tie himself to that past as he heads into this unthinkable and yet ordained future. And so seen and understood future is one of the really, I think, undeniable elements of a family and a man and a connection. Paul is thinking in the book a lot too, of his greatness, grandfather present in the first film, the Bull, the story, right? So just the legacy of the Atreides family and and where this has all has gone and is going. But it's just like, this is kind of a stupid thing to say because it's so obvious, but it is like a good. Like a good reinforcement of the fact that these are this. That he v. Always thought of this as a trilogy. Like, this is an installment that was intended to be presented to us in three parts to your point. From the beginning of, like, this story of Paul and this family in this moment in time. That's not always how franchises come to us anymore. You know, sometimes we get something and then it's like, we're gonna continue this for fucking ever. Or who knows if you'll get a second one? And we decide later, you will.

Joanna Robinson (113:53)

Or there's only one Master Commander movie and we're forever. Like, where's my entire franchise? I deserve it. Okay. I showed this trailer to my pal Diana, who is like a huge Dune movie fan but has not read the books. She's also a huge Jason Momoa fan, and her first comment was, duncan Idaho's here. Didn't he die? Indeed, he sure did, Diana.

Mallory Rubin (114:19)

Very memorably.

Joanna Robinson (114:20)

Yeah. Here's what Denise says about Jason Momoa's return in this movie. Quote, he comes back just at the right moment in the story, and it's a very, very important comeback. Paul is struggling with his identity and having that strong Atreides figure coming back from the past of a tremendous impact. I will say that he's fully back. I have nothing more to say about this outside of a book spoiler section. Anything you want to say? Malia Rubin looks great. Happy to have him here.

Mallory Rubin (114:46)

Yeah, I'm thrilled. We will talk about it a little bit more in the book spoiler section. This is like, sometimes I feel like a real dummy. Oh, this is a little bit reminiscent to me, but in a different way of, like, how I was like, I can't believe they're showing everyone Rocky. When they're telling us about Project Tell Marion, it's like, no, of course they are. They want you to know what the movie's about and who's in there. You're going to get this fun alien buddy.

Joanna Robinson (115:08)

Yeah.

Mallory Rubin (115:08)

So, like, I was like, I wouldn't, I guess, have. There was a part of me that wondered, would it ever actually be confirmed or revealed that he was going to be in this movie? Or would it be for the people who haven't read the text and don't know, a shock and a surprise. But then I'm like, of course. It makes sense to market the movie in part around Jason Momoa being here. So like, I. I'm curious to see if future trailers and just even like the press circuit around the film reveals more, make it clear about what exactly is going on here or if that will remain under lock and key until the film itself or until our spoiler section in five minutes.

Joanna Robinson (115:47)

Last but not least, our girl Chani again. Once again, here is Zendaya. This is where we get. If we have a girl, what will we name her? Her name should be Ganyma. She would need to be strong like her mother. And what if it's a boy? I would name him Leto so he would have the wisdom of his grandfather. Chani's role in this film is such a stark departure from the book. As we mentioned in our coverage of part two, Chani is a sort of docile concubine to Paul at the end of the first book and is just sort of like, oh, you're marrying the princess, but you're still gonna fuck me. Sounds great. Sign me up. Love that for me, right? So that's a very different place than the pissed off for both political and personal reasons place that we find Chani, you know, looking to catch a R on a sandworm at the end of Dune Part 2. And so even book like Van called me, I think before the Midnight Boys did their breakdown, he's like explained to me and I was like, I don't quite. I have theories but I don't have clear answers because I don't quite know how they're going to deploy her here. Denny has said that the story, quote, the story of Paul and Chani, of them struggling with their relationship, having the burden and incredible pressure from the world around them and Paul having to find a way out of the cycle of violence. There's something about the they're way, their love and the time and the way they are and the way their relationship evolves. That study on the relationship of all characters that is very personal to him. The Chani Paul love story is

Mallory Rubin (117:15)

crucial

Joanna Robinson (117:16)

central a spine of this story for him. So how he's going to bend and shape his decision to give to make Chani, I think a much more interesting character and then puts her in a place plot wise where I don't know how she will play the role that she needs to play at the end of the day here, the Zendaya perfume ed shots from part one are back here in the part three trailer. It's interesting to reconcile like Paul's visions of Chani with the time hardened reality of her that we get as you mentioned on the poster, and. And at the end of the trailer when she's sort of like, ready with a crisp knife on the back, seems like on the back of a sand worm, like, ready to have a fight. Like, that's very sick. But that is sort of like what's a flashback and what's not. I mean, I don't know, but I'm inclined to use Paul's hair as a marker, though it's possible that he, like, shaves his head midway through, but I'm inclined to think that long, curly hair, Timothy, is a flashback and not. And so when we get Chani and Paul in the tent talking about their future children, and she's got the blue scarf around her head, which in the book means one thing, but in the movie just meant, like, I'm an. Right, that's her relationship status is the blue scarf. And then later in part two, she took the blue scarf off her head and started wrapping it around her wrist. And at the end of the trailer here for part three, she's got it wrapped like filthy and wrapped around her wrist with the Kris knife on the back of the sandworm. So, like the pristine, clean blue, you know, Chani and Paul in the tent, to me, Reza's flashback, but I don't know for certain what it's going to be.

Mallory Rubin (118:56)

I think so I agree with you. I think the hair, you know, we do see, like, Paul with long hair in a suit of war out on the battlefield as well. And so presumably we're gonna glimpse many moments in time across the 17 years. And I'm curious to see if that is kind of like, dappled and dispensed throughout the film, these flashbacks in these moments in, like, contextually relevant places and moments, or if it's like, if we're caught up on a stretch of time and then we exist in the contemporary time frame. I'm not. I'm not sure how that will go, but I agree with you that there's something about the hair to track and also just their faces because, you know, there's the scarring, just the kind of weather worn, the tattoos, the tattoos on the forehead, the age makeup, all of it. So clearly we are moving through time. I'll save my further thoughts on. On Chani for the spoiler section as well. But, yeah, I'm so curious to see how much time we spend in the past versus in the present. I think there's a way to just give us glimpses that really fill in that space quite effectively. But who knows?

Joanna Robinson (120:02)

Especially with a character who has visions of past and future. You know what I mean? Especially when the spice is involved. We can hop around time any way we want to. All right.

Mallory Rubin (120:15)

Before we get to the books. Yeah. Just a couple of quick things before we get to the book spoiler section. I think just like I should have mentioned this when we were just talking about kind of at the opening, like, what this story is meant to interrogate and like, you know, the other thing we love to talk about, obviously when we talk about Dune and Paul, is prophecy. And like, this is one of the all time great like prophecy stories. And you know, I. Some of. There are so many incredible lines across all of the texts about the role of prophecy and the role of vision and carrying this. You know, the oracular vision and the prescience and where it guides people and what the weight of it is and how it is deployed to, to manipulate and guide the masses. But I think just this idea of like, it went the way it must is like a line from Dune Messiah, or people call it a power, a gift. It's an affliction. It won't let me leave my life where I found it. Like, this is not a celebration of prophecy. And that is another just true central elemental thing. It's part of why I think we both find it as people who consume so many stories where prophecy is central. So riveting and interesting to see a story that chips away at the, the, the way that, that can affect and, and guide you. So that's just really kind of on my mind in the, the biggest way possible with this movie. I can't wait to see what Viln does with that. The only other thing I'll note before the spoiler section kind of is a blanket thing. And this is often true with adaptations. It's been true with Dune before. There are a number. We talked about Edric already not being, we think in the trailer, but not being like listed on the cast or anything. There are a number of key characters in the story who do not appear to be in the movie. And that's just. We maybe would talk about it in a second in a little bit more detail in the spoiler section. But I'm just kind of like, that's on my mind with like, who will be compressed, you know, will certain characters who are in the story just inherit storylines that belong to other figures and stand in for them? Will certain aspects of the story be eliminated? Will they be moved to other figures? You know, there are meaningful people and drivers of the plot who are just I don't think in the movie, so that's interesting. Maybe they will be revealed at a certain point to be in the movie, but currently it looks like some major characters are not in the movie, so that's fascinating.

Joanna Robinson (122:22)

I doubt it. Like, Denis has proven himself as someone who's, like, willing to make large, adaptive changes in the first two movies. So I am inclined to think that, like, he's. He. Especially with something that is as, like, murky in some places as Dune, Messiah, I think he's just sort of like, let's, let's. And I trust him. You know, like, there's a lot of people who make big adaptations where I'm like, come on, buddy. The source material rules. But Denis has absolutely proven himself to understand what is at the core and the heart of the messaging of this story. And so I feel, like, really good about whatever he wants to say.

Mallory Rubin (122:52)

I agree. I think there's a real. There's a pretty. There's a way certainly here to drive the spirit of it and maintain the spirit of it while putting, you know, this thing that someone did here with this person. I'm very intrigued, but I agree. I'm confident.

Joanna Robinson (123:07)

Now it's time for book spoilers.

Mallory Rubin (123:09)

We're to not going. It's not gonna be like a. Yeah,

Joanna Robinson (123:11)

it's not gonna be a huge, lengthy section, but we just wanted to, like, touch on a few things. So book spoilers, get the heck out of here. If you don't want to learn some things, there's a big, big things to talk about. So. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Mallory Rubin (123:24)

Did you leave? Bye.

Joanna Robinson (123:26)

Bye. All right, so I have. I have a couple of things listed here, but do you want to start with what you were alluding to, like, the characters who are missing that you're sort of. I mean, there are some questions about.

Mallory Rubin (123:33)

There are a bunch, obviously, but Korba and Bijaz in particular not being in the story is fascinating, given, I think the. So the Fremen betrayal, like, the idea of the conspiracy, but also the people who are turning against Paul come, like the. The inside the house aspect of Paul, you know, and ultimately the story ends with Paul with the Fremen embracing Paul and protecting his children. And, you know, when he wanders off into the desert. Right. It is like a. A cementing, actually, of his place among those people. But there are lot of rocky bits of business along the way. And I think, like, Korba as a figure who. And there are there. The treachery takes form in so many different places and ways. But I'm. I'M so I'm curious if that is maybe this can connect to some of the Chi talk. I think at the end of the. The Dune Part 2. Like, we did a little spoiler section at the end of the Part two movie pod, and I think we were like, l so is like, Johnny gonna, like, turn on Paul, as I think that's going to happen, which is you noted, is not what happens in the book. But like, so does she actually absorb some of the Fremen treachery plot? Does Stilgar absorb some of it or does it go to Chani? Like, where do you think that is going?

Joanna Robinson (124:41)

I think it could be both. And I really like this idea of, like, Chani as a sort of, like, to put a more personal face on the side of the Fremen rebellion, whether or not she will, like, reconcile with Paul at some point. But this brings me to the 17 years later question. And the children, right, because so Chani needs to be in Paul's life for the book to work because they have children who are important for the future of the story, et cetera, et cetera. This was a common theory at the end of Part two. And I am all the more convinced that she was already pregnant at the end of Part two because they have cast Nicole Wolf, Momoa, Jason Momoa's kid, and Ida Brooke as Paul and Chani's kids. And they are 16ish years old. So if I like this idea that she's had the kids in secrecy and Paul does not know that they exist and they are already like teenagers out in the world, like, brought up with the Fremen or something like that. Do you think that that's possible?

Mallory Rubin (125:54)

I would. No, I. Maybe I think anything's possible. And you always introduce theories that I have never even considered that intrigue me. I. I would have a hard time thinking about how that would work because so much of Paul's like, there's everything with the Holy War, with the visions and Paul's role in it, but there's so much of the vision centric stretch of the Dune Messiah plot is driven around the children and Chani's death. Yeah, Dying. Right. And then there's like the O, oh, shit, we had two of them twist. And so he doesn't see everything. And maybe that's enough of a. That is to your larger point, I think the kind of like, little crack that Villeneuve is interested in taking and blowing open being like, oh, maybe if Paul didn't know that there was a second baby and is surprised by that in the book is there enough there for me to play with to say, could he be surprised about both of them? There is another.

Joanna Robinson (126:42)

There is another Skywalker.

Mallory Rubin (126:44)

But like, I guess he's perseverating over and. And also the fact that he is like, his awareness of them feels important to me because it. You know what? I'm in real time. I'm twisting myself into a pretzel here because. I was gonna say his awareness of them feels crucial because of the weight of that.

Joanna Robinson (127:01)

Right.

Mallory Rubin (127:01)

That he's like. He knows Chani's gonna die in childbirth. And it is like when he gets to the end and he's like, do

Joanna Robinson (127:07)

you think it's possible he doesn't wanna do this? Because George Lucas lifted that and gave it to Anakin and Padme and then Denise.

Mallory Rubin (127:14)

Like, I don't wanna run back Anakin

Joanna Robinson (127:16)

and Padme, even though they were inspired by that.

Mallory Rubin (127:18)

It's.

Joanna Robinson (127:20)

And Chani maybe. I don't think he wants to have his version of Chani die in childbirth.

Mallory Rubin (127:26)

I agree. I. I'm with you that I think. I agree. I'm with you that I think he is going to change that she's not going to die. I. I actually think that would be like quite odd and surprising if that was maintained from text to screen based on the other changes. I also agree with you. It seems most likely to me. I think it's possible that the casting to your children of Dune incorporation point is basically like at the end we see these kids as like a little flash to the future of that.

Joanna Robinson (127:54)

Possible that it's them at the end or them in visions or something like that. That they're. That they are babies in this.

Mallory Rubin (128:00)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (128:00)

And then. Yeah. Are teens and into the very. Understand. But I am like this idea that they were. That they're there already born.

Mallory Rubin (128:08)

I like that too. I think it feels to me like the. The possibility of. Based on the way they're presented in the trailer talking about that. That she's pregnant already or right away and that they have the kids. The part that I'm having a harder time wrapping my mind around is him not knowing. I don't. I don't know that that would. And the other reason that I don't. I can't wrap my mind around that though again, that would be really interesting is like. Because so much of the friction with Irulan is that she is like, I am supposed to let me birth your heir. And he won't. Right. And he won't take her into his bed.

Joanna Robinson (128:36)

He won't. Her. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, she's feeding, but.

Mallory Rubin (128:40)

But she's giving time.

Joanna Robinson (128:42)

The contraception, different motivation. If he's. If, like. Let's just say he doesn't want to have sex with her anyway.

Mallory Rubin (128:48)

Sure.

Joanna Robinson (128:48)

Not just, like. Not because I prefer my concubine, but was in love with someone else. And this is a purely political marriage. Like, I don't want to have sex with you. I don't want. Oh, no.

Mallory Rubin (128:57)

For sure. I think from the airline perspective, that could go all sorts of ways. I just mean more like Paul not knowing about the kids. I kind of like him. He's so protective of his relationship with Chani. Now, if he has squandered that and the. One of the costs is not knowing actually about this family, that would be kind of interesting to mine. But the idea that he is like, this is just this thing that, you know, I. I will love you for as long as I breathe. That he said in the second movie, like, knowing and needing to protect her and them from the forces inside the.

Joanna Robinson (129:27)

He's so protective of her. But. But that was a different Chani. You know what I mean? Like, I believe in the Paul and Chani love story. I believe that even if she is, like, on the Fremen opposition, has had his kids in secret, they're 16 or 17 or whatever. Like, if. Even if all of that is true, I still think there's gonna be, like, a. Some kind of Paul and Chani reconciliation. Whether that's him, like, against this is just, like, wildly theorizing whether that's him, like, discovering that the kids exist or, like, you know, anything like that. Her discovering that he has been protecting them somehow or. But here's a hole in my theory, which is that some people interpreted the way that Zendaya talks about Florence Pugh in Part three as indicating that they have several scenes together. And that would mean that Chani would have to, like, be at your palace in theory or whatever. So.

Mallory Rubin (130:22)

But I.

Joanna Robinson (130:23)

But I read those quotes, and I don't know that I have the same interpretation. I think she was just talking about how great Florence Pugh is in the movie.

Mallory Rubin (130:30)

Well, I wonder if these ideas could all connect, because I'm struggling because Paul's awareness of the pregnancy and of the offspring is so central to the story. I'm struggling to think about him not being aware of that. However, to the earlier point of, like, Edric and blocking Paul's awareness of the conspiracy. And that is so central.

Joanna Robinson (130:51)

Right.

Mallory Rubin (130:51)

If Chani is in cahoots, if Chani is a part of the Conspiracy, then in theory, she. There could be a shielding that. That could be a way to. Because I don't see how he wouldn't know otherwise. But if she's part of the conspiracy and has that proximity to Edric, just like Iran goes to the back to the palace and the books and is like. But he does know. He knows something's up. This is fascinating. I don't know what to make the

Joanna Robinson (131:17)

quote in the trailer. I'm doing the best I can to protect my family, which I deployed in the section where we talk about Aliyah. But, like, obviously that could also be him talking about Chani or talking about the kids or whatever the case may be. But. Okay, so that's the Chani question again, I don't know the answer, but that's.

Mallory Rubin (131:32)

Will we still get to see him see through the eyes of a newborn infant in his cradle after. After he's been blinded? I hope so.

Joanna Robinson (131:40)

One can only hope. Before we get to the blinding, let's talk about Golas. So in case you're listening to this and you haven't read the book, Duncan Idaho. This is not Duncan Idaho, though it also is. It's a character called Hayt H a y t. And he's what's known as a ghola, which is essentially like a clone. And basically, basically, as part of this conspiracy against Paul, he has been created to. In a sort of Manchurian Candidate esque way to sort of infiltrate the Atreides family and then when triggered, take Paul out. And also that his presence, His. His very presence there is meant to confuse, confound, emotionally compromise both Paul and Aaliyah inside of this world.

Mallory Rubin (132:37)

Talk about.

Joanna Robinson (132:38)

So I mean, are they gonna do that?

Mallory Rubin (132:40)

Are they gonna do the.

Joanna Robinson (132:42)

Is that why she's scene, the Dunkin Aaliyah scene? I don't know. I don't know.

Mallory Rubin (132:49)

Great question. Here's the thing. But I feel confident they won't do. Is Aaliyah training in the nude and then Paul walking in and being like, what's up?

Joanna Robinson (132:56)

Pretty great.

Mallory Rubin (132:57)

Pretty.

Joanna Robinson (132:57)

All right. So crazy. That's not. But that is and isn't Duncan Idaho. We do get a shot in the trailer of Paul and Duncan fighting. And I'm pretty in. In the, like, sparring. And I'm pretty sure that this is the moment in the book where basically the ghola that is Hayt, again, H a y T breaks through his programming. Like, he. He's got this contradicting. There's like the. The love that Duncan Idaho that is molecularly implanted into The DNA of Duncan Idaho and the love he has for Paul versus the instructions that he has been given to hurt Paul. And basically, he overcomes his mentoring candidate. Esque programming and, like, Breaks is the first ghola in history to sort of, like, break out of that control. So that is. Again, we talked about Golas a bit when we covered Dune Prophecy, a show that I would prefer to forget, but that is. That's what's going on here. This is a clone. Will they say that in the media tour? I don't know. Or will they continue to play coy? It's a great question.

Mallory Rubin (134:02)

I'm so interested to see.

Joanna Robinson (134:04)

I should say sort of to go back to the. Once again studying. Parsing media appearances for clues. Going back to the children question. At the premiere of the trailer, Zendaya was asked if Chani and Paul are having kids in the film. And she avoided answering the question by laughing and pointing at Villeneuve and saying, over to you, director. So, like.

Mallory Rubin (134:23)

But then the whole trailer is about, like, the kids. They're gonna have this. That's so. It's hard to make movies in the Internet era. It's. I don't envy anyone who has to go out and do these press stores and not. It's. How would they know what they can say or not? It's.

Joanna Robinson (134:37)

It's wild.

Mallory Rubin (134:39)

I am thrilled that we're in the Gola Hate Duncan era. And this is like, another one where I'm curious to see, especially because a character, like, if BJ is not in the movie, is there another path? Like, are they interested in the movie and. And kind of examining and preserving the, like, the last little phase of the Gola plot, which is like, okay, hate tapped back into Duncan. And, you know, Paul, let me back up. One of the great things about just the presence of. Of the Gola period is that from the beginning, right away, it's just like, out on Front street. Are you here to kill me? Is that why they. Is that why. Why they did this thing?

Joanna Robinson (135:23)

Right?

Mallory Rubin (135:23)

You must. Surely, you are here to take me down. And that hate is kind of like, you probably should, like, not let me be around you. You should get rid of me. But, like, Paul is. It's the face of his best friend. So, like, he wants to be near him. And this kind of constant quagmire of contradictions and dissonance is, like, so riveting. They're all acknowledging it constantly. Aaliyah and hate have a very interesting draw to each other and relationship, but there's that element too, because you noted earlier, like a. And Paul, it's like, you're my number one. You're my number one. So she wants to protect him. They're all afraid of what hate might do. And so when you build toward that moment of Paul, like, who has foreseen so much, and yet there are moments in even his visions, as they're unfurling in real time in front of him, where he's like, wait, that you weren't here.

Joanna Robinson (136:12)

You weren't here.

Mallory Rubin (136:13)

Oh, this little. It's all happening. It's here. You said that line. You said that word. But these little things are different. And so there are these aspects of him, even though he is certain that he's marching toward the path that he has seen later out in front of him, where he's like, could it go a different way? And then at the end, of course, it's like, should I have ensured it went a different way? Hate, like, just something like him saying, young master. And Paul's like, wait, you called me something. Duncan would have called me like, is it you, Duncan? Is it you? And so one of the things I'm curious to see if Vilnu is interested in is it just about having him here to pull to. To go for the kill move. And then he's pulled out of the. The Thalaxu. I'm your weapon. I'm your. I'm your pawn. Coding and programming. And it just becomes Duncan again. And he and Paul are on each other's side. And that's a win for them and a loss for everyone else. And that's where it ends in the movie. Or do they then do the other element of it of, like, part of the plot, right? Part of the Thalaxu plot. Part of what they're interested in is, no matter what, they have a contingency if he. If this is what happens, it's. They didn't lose from their perspective, they won. Because it proves that, to your point, the first goal in history who actually, like, communed again with his prior form, then they can do that, right? So it's like, okay, I can. I'm good. You could just keep making me again, and I'm never at jeopardy. If he had killed Paul, then their plan is to just have. Go to a Leia and say, do you want us to make a Goa out of Paul?

Joanna Robinson (137:39)

Right?

Mallory Rubin (137:40)

They offer to Paul, they're like, do you want us to make your beloved love at a ghola? And Paul is, of course, tempted, because how could he not be? But then also he knows that if he does that, he'll be in their debt forever and they'll control him. So, like, I'm curious if that aspect of the ghola plot is something that is going to be explored at all or if it really will just be. You're wearing the face of my best friend, but I know you're here to kill me. And then you tried to, and then you didn't, which would be still pretty great in the movie and probably more contained, I think.

Joanna Robinson (138:07)

Also, if Chani is like a sort of mirror character to that, if there's like. If Chani is the face of. Of the Fremen revolution or anything like that, or as part of the conspiracy, this idea of, like, Villeneuve really underlining their love story and just sort of like, what can transcend or what can reach, you know, a Paul who's gone to the lengths that he's gone to, and can he return to himself in some way because of the love of a Duncan Idaho or a Chani or whatever the case may be. Right, Last but not least, yes, let's talk about stone burning.

Mallory Rubin (138:45)

So, dude, so they just tweeted out the blindness on the poster. They just did it.

Joanna Robinson (138:49)

Yeah. So the. So the. Well, I don't think people know what they're looking at if they don't know

Mallory Rubin (138:53)

what they're looking at.

Joanna Robinson (138:54)

But, like, he's got a bunch of scarring around his eyes in the poster, which is, like, very cool. In the trailer, we get this, like, flash of light, which everyone is like, okay, that's the moment, the stone burner moment, that Paul Atreides loses his site. Yeah. But then again, if you're listening to spoiler section, but you haven't read the book, don't worry. Because of his fucking, like, vision abilities, he's like, you don't have to. You don't have to get rid of me. I can still see everything because I got the spice mind. Here's a quote from the book. As he looked at the troopers beginning to stand up around him, the mist on Paul's eyes faded into darkness. He summoned up his oracular vision of these moments, then turned and strode on along the track that capital T time had carved for him. Fitting himself into the vision so tightly that it could not escape, he felt himself grow aware of this place as a multitudinous possession, reality welded to prediction. I mean, great shit, end quote. Frank Herbert cooking. But this idea of, like, what he sees now is what he has seen. And so it's sort of like, to your point, that idea of, like, prediction and prophecy becoming reality because it's the only sight he has left because he has lost his physical sight. We're gonna be feasting. I'm very excited for how this is depicted visually by Denis Villeneuve. Really, really great opportunity for all of that. But, yeah, that's just in the trailer and on the poster, if you know what you're looking for.

Mallory Rubin (140:23)

Do you think we're gonna move this up? This is, like, pretty late in the book. The stone burner sequence.

Joanna Robinson (140:27)

It's.

Mallory Rubin (140:28)

I wonder if this happened sooner.

Joanna Robinson (140:30)

I don't. Maybe. But that scarring that we see on the poster is not on him anywhere else in the trailer. So I. I don't know if that.

Mallory Rubin (140:38)

Maybe it's like the start of the third act or something. That would feel right. Yeah. God, I can't wait for this to be. I'm so. I'm so.

Joanna Robinson (140:47)

I'm so excited. Okay, so basically, the structure of the pod today was, like, moving through layers of enthusiasm, and it's like Daredevil. Born again. Spider Man.

Mallory Rubin (140:57)

Just.

Joanna Robinson (140:58)

Dude.

Mallory Rubin (140:59)

A wormhole through space. Spidey. Dune.

Joanna Robinson (141:03)

Dune. Dude. I'm so excited. All right. I had so much fun, like, looking at this dude trailer and thinking about and like, going into the book for quotes and stuff like that. Just like, this is our shit. I'm so excited. Anything else you want to say before we call it a day?

Mallory Rubin (141:16)

No, I just can't wait. I mean, we celebrated in the hype draft, like, how many things we had to look forward to and will everything be great? Who knows? But Project Hail Mary, being good really felt like a, you know what? It is, in fact going to be

Joanna Robinson (141:28)

our year kind of signal. So it might be. I can't wait. I'm thrilled. Is the thing you have the most question marks about right now, like Avengers Doomsday?

Mallory Rubin (141:36)

Is that in terms of whether it's actually good? Oh, boy. You know, I do like, everyone have some man do mando grogu questions. So I really hope that it's fun. I kind of. I hope that free will be good, but I don't know. Why didn't they just move that a few weeks? What a. What an own goal. Jesus.

Joanna Robinson (142:00)

What a mess. All right, thank you.

Mallory Rubin (142:03)

Yes.

Joanna Robinson (142:04)

To our Avengers who have assembled here today. To ct, to J. Cornette. To Carlos Chiraboga, to Arjuna Ramgapel, To Jomi Aden, to Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson. And to me. And we'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Marvel Television's Daredevil born again Season 2 now streaming on Disney Charlie Cox and Vincent D' Onofrio are back and and Kristen Ritter makes her highly anticipated return as Jessica Jones in an all new season. As Mayor Fisk tightens his grip on New York City, he makes Daredevil as his top target. Matt Murdock fights from the shadows, hoping to bring down Fisk's corrupt empire and reclaim his city. Don't miss Daredevil born again season two now streaming only on Disney 2 good

Mallory Rubin (143:07)

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