‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2, Episode 7 With Rob Mahoney

Summary

House of R: ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2, Episode 7 Breakdown

Podcast: House of R | The Ringer
Episode: ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2, Episode 7 With Rob Mahoney
Date: April 30, 2026
Hosts: Joanna Robinson, Rob Mahoney

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Episode Overview

This episode features Joanna Robinson hosting alongside Rob Mahoney (subbing in for Mallory Rubin), for an in-depth discussion of ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2, Episode 7, “Requiem, the Hateful Darkness.” The conversation dives into the episode’s themes, character arcs, and some broader Marvel/TV industry trends, while also touching on listener-favorite segments like the Hype Draft and Bullseye Watch. The banter showcases both hosts’ signature blend of analytical sharpness and irreverent fandom, with digressions on upcoming TV, MVP performances, and “what could have been” in post-production storytelling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Quick Show Updates & Programming Reminders

• ‘Widow’s Bay’ Watch: Early discussion on Apple TV’s new supernatural series “Widow’s Bay”—hosts debate whether to cover it on Prestige TV feed.
  • “It is both very, very dry and funny and genuinely quite scary.” (Joanna, 03:07)
  • “I think the first episode to that Parks and Rec Energy is one of the funniest episodes of TV I’ve seen so far this year.” (Rob, 03:54)
• Upcoming Topics: Mallory Rubin returns next week for the Daredevil finale; May is “Friend of the Pod Month” (live guest segments, including Sam Witwer on Darth Maul, a Punisher special, and more).
• Vampire Lestat Countdown: The pod marks 38 days until the Vampire Lestat premiere—a "national holiday."
  • “Where’s the board? I feel like you need a whiteboard...dripping in blood.” (Rob, 05:39)

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2. 2026 Hype Draft Mid-Season Check-In (07:04–13:30)

• Drafted projects are gauged for hype and performance.
• Rob’s Picks:
  • Project Hail Mary adaptation: “One of the best movies of the year. Couldn’t be happier about it.” (Rob, 07:53)
  • The Bride pick gets roasted for critical reception, but Rob stands by it.
  • Anticipation remains for Avengers: Doomsday and Godzilla -0.
• Joanna’s Picks: Pins hope on “Werewolf,” concedes Practical Magic 2 teaser looks bad.
• Spider Noir and Clayface flagged as projects they wish they'd picked.
• X-Men ‘97 Season 2, Supergirl, and Resident Evil updates are also discussed.

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3. Daredevil: Born Again Season 2, Episode 7 Deep Dive

a) Rob’s History & POV on Daredevil (13:42–17:22)

• Introduced via Ben Affleck/Jen Garner movie, later comics, and especially the Netflix series.
• Loves the intersection of street-level New York realism and deep Catholic themes:
  • “This dude is very Catholic and I am a lapsed Catholic.” (Rob, 14:44)
  • “Every panel is a refraction of actual New York or a reflection on...guilt and grace.” (Rob, 15:00)
• “Love a brooder, love just somebody lurking, sulking, chewing in their own discontent.” (Rob, 15:43)

b) Comparing Disney+ and Netflix Eras (17:22–18:24; 55:17–59:32)

• This season improves upon Season 1 but still falls short of Netflix’s dialogue/fight choreography:
  • “Some of the fights are quite good and some of them are just like, do you have action?” (Rob, 17:54)
  • Cox’s performance is still a highlight, but Matt’s through-line often lacks consistency.
  • “He is...functionally disappeared from the story for a lot of the season. Right? It has been like, you are kind of Daredevil all the time because Matt Murdock has to be in hiding.” (Rob, 55:50)

c) Jessica Jones Integration (18:19–23:29)

• Jessica Jones’s cameo is another case of MCU-misused nostalgia; underutilized so far.
  • “Jessica is much better as the damaged hero of her own story than she is as a drive-by sidekick.” (Rob, 19:55)
  • “You have messed up the formula on a very fundamental level with this character.” (Rob, 19:57)
  • Rumors point to bigger roles for Jessica, Luke Cage, and maybe Danny Rand in S3.

d) The Art & Power of Bullseye (Dex) (23:29–32:06)

• One of two true “scene-elevators” this season (the other: Buck Cashman).
  • “He is magnetic on the screen in a way that they’re clearly trying to wrangle and figure out what to do with.” (Rob, 24:09)
  • “The spikification is off the charts as far as, like, don’t think too much about the truly villainous and evil things he has done, because look at this man saunter.” (Rob, 24:15)
• MCU future: hosts debate whether Dex belongs with the Thunderbolts, in his own special (à la Punisher), or ideally as a Daredevil regular.
  • “I would be sad if he turns into a larger MCU character and not a recurring Daredevil character. Like, the show might need him.” (Rob, 31:07)

e) Side Characters MVPs & the Case for Dr. Heather Glenn (35:33–41:43)

• Dr. Heather Glenn (Margarita Levieva) emerges as the episode’s MVP:
  • “She’s fantastic in this episode.” (Joanna, 35:55)
  • “She definitely choked him to completion.” (Rob, 36:27)
• Debate over her rumored villain turn as Lady Muse, with hints via styling.
• Discussion of Heather & Buck as a dangerously fun duo.
• Runners-up: Kirsten’s “courtroom fit”; Karen Page’s standout scene.

f) Daniel Blake’s Death & Post-Production Chaos (42:29–54:12)

• Behind the Scenes Bombshell: Daniel Blake’s death was decided post-filming; the scene was changed via digital gunshot (Variety report).
  • “We have to reinterpret his whole performance because they changed their mind and decided to kill this character.” (Joanna, 44:10)
• Raises questions about erratic edit-room decisions (cf. The Pit).
• On Michael Gandolfini’s performance:
  • “This is not of this show. And yet he just kind of worms his way in, and you feel a certain affection and investment in his story.” (Rob, 47:26)
  • Discussion of nepo baby dynamics; parallels with Cooper Hoffman, Lewis Pullman.

g) Charlie Cox, Matt Murdock & the Show’s Core (54:12–59:32)

• Praise for Cox, critique of how little his character “tracks” this season.
  • “Charlie Cox makes being Daredevil look pretty easy in terms of what he is doing physically within that suit in a way that...Marvel shows just do not.” (Rob, 59:32)
• Shared desire for more of the street-level grit and wounded humanity of the Netflix version.

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4. Looking Ahead: Questions & Finale Predictions (59:36–66:52)

• Jessica Jones: Both want more substance in the finale.
• Courtroom Drama vs. Fisticuffs:
  • “Maybe this is something Matt Murdock can do. Maybe there is a way where...” (Rob, 62:22)
  • Ideal outcome: Matt bringing down Fisk in court for once.
• Bullseye/Dex: Unsure if he’ll appear in the finale; could be “buttoned” until next season.
• Heather Glenn: Satisfied for now, but would welcome escalations.
• Most side characters have been “buttoned up”—open question if the show has figured out what to do with each.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Widow’s Bay: “It is both very, very dry and funny and genuinely quite scary. There’s something that happened in episode two that scared the shit out of me.” (Joanna, 03:07)
• On Catholic Guilt & Daredevil: “This dude is very Catholic and I am a lapsed Catholic.” (Rob, 14:44)
• On Jessica Jones’s Mishandling: “You have messed up the formula on a very fundamental level with this character.” (Rob, 19:57)
• On Bullseye’s Swagger: “Don’t think too much about the truly villainous and evil things he has done, because look at this man saunter.” (Rob, 24:15)
• On Heather Glenn’s Infamy: “She definitely choked him to completion.” (Rob, 36:27)
• On the Post-Production Death of Daniel Blake: “We have to reinterpret his whole performance because they changed their mind and decided to kill this character...” (Joanna, 44:10)
• On MCU Use of Charlie Cox: “Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock on Netflix was one of the best superhero performances I had ever seen.” (Joanna, 55:17)
• On Finale Needs: “Justice for Kirsten, but more broadly, justice for New York...Matt Murdock may not need a system to believe in. We do. I would like to see one system work.” (Joanna, 65:39)

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Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• Widow’s Bay Discussion: 02:18–04:44
• Housekeeping & Upcoming Coverage: 05:06–06:52
• 2026 Hype Draft Recap: 07:04–13:30
• Daredevil S2 E7 Discussion Starts: 13:42
• Jessica Jones Segment: 18:18–23:29
• Bullseye/MVP Characters: 23:29–32:06
• Daniel Blake Death/Editing Chaos: 42:29–54:12
• Charlie Cox/Matt Murdock: 55:17–59:32
• Finale Predictions & Wrap-Up: 59:36–66:52

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

With their trademark mix of warmth, critique, and fandom-laced ribbing, Joanna and Rob dissect the penultimate episode of “Daredevil: Born Again” while voicing concerns about erratic storytelling, character treatment, and post-production patchwork. They celebrate breakout supporting performances (Dr. Heather Glenn, Dex/Bullseye), debate the show’s lost potential vs. moments of brilliance, and look toward the finale with (tempered) hopes for legal fireworks, proper Jessica Jones screen time, and “justice for New York.” The episode is essential listening (or reading) for fans tracking both the state of the Marvel TV universe and the broader fate of serialized pop culture storytelling.

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For mailbag, feedback, or TV pitches:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Vote on what to cover: prestigetvotify.com

Hosts on Socials: @houseofrpod (Instagram / TikTok)

Next week: Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 finale, with Mallory Rubin returning.

Transcript

[Joanna Robinson]

Foreign. Hello. Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. And joining me today is my pressy TV podcast co host, Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

Joe, thank you for having me. How do I appropriately channel the Mallory energy? Like, what do I need to do to occupy this scene?

[Joanna Robinson]

What is, what would be your impression of a dragon screech? What would that sound like?

[Rob Mahoney]

I see you trying to bait me,

[Joanna Robinson]

but I gotta tell you, you asked.

[Rob Mahoney]

I cannot one up whatever it was that Mal did. I, I, I don't even know how to accurately describe it.

[Joanna Robinson]

It comes from, like, deep in her soul.

[Rob Mahoney]

Definitely. It's very important, at least from her diaphragm. Like, there's a powerful vocal presence there for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely. We're going to be talking about Daredevil episode 7 as well as a few other odds and ends right after this. This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Calling all trainers. Pokemon is celebrating 30 years and the party is at Target. That's right. Pokemon and Target are launching a limited time collection designed for trainers across every era of fandom. We're talking over 100 exclusive pieces you won't find anywhere else. Shirts, water bottles, and more. The first drop appears in stores May 2 and online May 3 before the collection evolves with the second drop on June 6. Explore [e-mail] the playoffs are here and

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[Rob Mahoney]

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[Joanna Robinson]

All right, quick programming reminders. What's going on the prestige feed? Let me just ask you right, right off the bat.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, we're covering euphoria week to week, as you well know. We're also mulling some other coverage options. Is there anything you want to float by the people, Joe?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, let's do this. Now, we both watched. You watched the first episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

I did.

[Joanna Robinson]

I watched the first two episodes of the new Apple show, Widow's Bay, which is a very ringerverse friendly show. So I thought it would be okay for us to talk about it briefly here. No major spoilers. No, but how. What, what is the premise of this show, Widow's Bay?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would say it's the, the intersection of a small coastal town that is trying to keep itself alive economically and also put itself on the map. Combined with maybe the fact that it's like fucking haunted and spooky as hell and you know, not in a cute Salemy kind of way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. There's stuff in the fog, it seems like. Yeah, this is Matthew Reese. It's. And Stephen Root, the great Stephen Rude, the goat. And it's from Kitty Dippold who worked on Parks and Recreation.

[Rob Mahoney]

And you can feel it.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's very Parks and Rec because he's the mayor of this. I think it's an island town. Right. So he's the mayor. He's trying to get the reputation of the town up and meanwhile haunted things are happening. So it is both very, very dry and funny and genuinely quite scary. There's something that happened in episode two that scared the shit out of me. So I was like, oh, okay. This is seriously scary. Not just the slight chills and thrills we get in episode one. So I guess the question we're asking house of our listeners, any Prestige listeners who are tuning in, should we cover this show on Prestige? It is prestigious. I would say it is.

[Rob Mahoney]

We're putting it in the window and saying, do you want this?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Does this appeal to you?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

How spooky do you want to be?

[Joanna Robinson]

We're just trying to see if it's something that people would want on the Prestige Feed kind of way. We both really liked it. Yes. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think the first episode to that Parks and Rec Energy is one of the funniest episodes of TV I've seen so far this year in that very exact like small town people behaving like quite oddly kind of way. I think it captures something really interesting. I can't wait to dive into the scarier parts.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's very losty in its own way, but like it's less of a theme theory mystery show and more of just a chills and thrills and funny show. It is like a 40 plus minute. It is an hour long show. So it's not like a 30 minute. I don't know. I want us to cover it, but I'm not sure there's enough there there. Prestigetvotify.com if you have any thoughts or feelings or hobbitsanddragons gmail.com if you wanna, you know, if you're like, hey, I'm listening to this show, why not email? This show's email. Widow's Bay. Should we or should we not.

[Rob Mahoney]

Would you say you're more chill inclined or thrill inclined?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great question. Chill. How about you?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, see, I'm more of a thrill, but maybe this is the peanut butter and jelly that makes the show go.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is why we're a match. All right, so on this feed, the one you're watching or listening to, we're covering the mall finale and we had the great Sam Witwer in the studio to talk about Darth Maul animated Darth Maul.

[Rob Mahoney]

Have you recovered?

[Joanna Robinson]

Nope, never shall. We'll do the Daredevil finale next week as well. Also, the entire month of May, we're calling a friend of the pod month. We're having a bunch of people come in on the show to talk about the Punisher special, Spider noir, which you and I will talk about in a second. Psychedelic Mando and Grogu, the Survivor finale. All kinds of stuff we're having, folks. Just like, we're just making use of the extremely large sofa that we have for this show. So that's the plan for May. Also, just a quick reminder, it's Thursday, 38 days until the Vampire Lestat premieres this summer, our national holiday.

[Rob Mahoney]

Where's the board? Like, I feel like you need a whiteboard with the countdown very, very visible. I mean, better yet, dripping in blood.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or like the lost countdown clock with some, like, hieroglyphics and stuff like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, the set deck operations are really endless.

[Joanna Robinson]

They really are. So that's what we have coming up. Follow us on all of our socials, House of our pod on Instagram and TikTok. Listen to the pod on the podcaster of your choice. You can Watch us on YouTube, watch us on Spotify. We will have a graphic coming up in a. So if you're watching the show, that will help you with what we're about to talk about. But other than that, do what you will. Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com Spoiler warning. Daredevil Episode 7 and Rob's ability to gloat. And we'll get into that in our opening snapshot. All right, so technically, we're here to talk about episode seven of Daredevil Requiem, the Hateful Darkness. And you're such a pro that you binged all of Daredevil season Born Again, Season two.

[Rob Mahoney]

Season two. Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you had seen season two. You binge season two in order to hop on here you are the king of binge. Mallory is the queen of binge. And I'm just honored to be in your royal presence.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is a matriarchy Society like Mallory is on a different level than what I like to do in Occupy. But this was an easy one, honestly. And part of that is, I mean, Daredevil, even when it's bad or messy. And I don't even think the season's in that. Just a very watchable show for me, like a very easy one to turn on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Before we get into Daredevil, though, I thought I would give you an opportunity. Welcome back to House of R. Couple months into the year, I thought we would check in on the 2026 hype draft we did with you. Sean Fantasy, Mali, Rubin, yours truly. Where My draft went kind of off a ledge in a way that I'm not that bothered by. There was. There's no chance I'm gonna win the year, so let's just take me off the board and leave you and Mal and Sean still in contention.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

And just for people who are watching the pod, I just thought I would throw the grid up on the board so people could see what shots people called. It's up on the board right there so people can see. And just checking in really quickly. How are you feeling about your project Hail Mary choice?

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, I just. I'm really happy to see one of my favorite novels adapted into a widely beloved movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you love reading fiction.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's very important to me. One of the best movies of the year. Couldn't be happier about it. I just have such a history with this particular property.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right, right, right. O. So it came from the heart, came from the soul, and not at all to personally injure Mallory or yours truly?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, honestly, it came from a place of being genuinely excited about a non franchised sci fi kind of story starring Ryan Gosling that I'm interested in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And then also. Yeah, like the. Did it also help that maybe it was more personal to the two of you?

[Joanna Robinson]

Perhaps psychologically unbalancing is something you like to do in sci fi?

[Rob Mahoney]

I would not say that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think so. I think everyone's seen your work.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not true.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you enjoy the movie?

[Rob Mahoney]

Of course.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

How could you not?

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Made a ton of money, Everyone liked it. Might be an awards contender. Great pick on your board. Anything else that you feel particularly like, vindicated about so far? Wanna talk about the Bride?

[Rob Mahoney]

Uh, no comment.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Did you see the Bride?

[Rob Mahoney]

Actually, I've not seen it yet. My hype level, honestly, I will not be deterred. I'm actually still excited to see it, despite all of the commentary about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really wanna talk to you once you've seen it. I told you, I saw it at double feature with Wuthering Heights. One of the most unhinged days of my life.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's a decision you made.

[Joanna Robinson]

It is a decision I made. I don't. I think it only sort of improved my enjoyment of the bride, rather than detrimental.

[Rob Mahoney]

Just for the contra.

[Joanna Robinson]

The overall, I would say right now and until disclosure day crashes and burns, the bride is the most hilarious choice on this. So you've got the high highs and the low lows on the board right now. Anything else you want to single out? As you know, we've heard some more about it. You're more excited about it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I remain cautiously optimistic about Doomsday. Maybe I will. That will be my famous last words. First line of my obituary. Went down swinging on Avengers. Doomsday. But I do think it's gonna hit. At least I'm hoping and praying that it does. I Also, you know, Godzilla -0 doesn't come out until November, but I have procured the 4k of Godzilla minus 1 to prepare myself physically and emotionally for the release.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, your body is ready. Listen, I will say I was looking at my draft, which is comically hilarious, and I will just say Werewolf, which comes out at the end of the year.

[Rob Mahoney]

Hell, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm like, hoping I can redeem myself with that.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's gonna be good.

[Joanna Robinson]

I hope it's absolutely rules. That's my. That's my hope.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's gonna be hairy, it's gonna be Victorian. It's gonna be very stuffy, but in a creepy way. Like, I mean, we know what we're in for. How did you feel, though, about The Practical Magic 2 teaser?

[Joanna Robinson]

Pretty bad.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pretty bad about my Practical Magic 2 choice, but we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Why are they shooting it that way? Like, why does it look like a Hallmark witch movie?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

Truly strange.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really bad. And, like, I don't know, using the lime and the coconut, I just.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's too much. There's too much lime and coconut. But there's also a lot of Lee Pace. Not unwelcome.

[Joanna Robinson]

We always. He's always welcome here.

[Rob Mahoney]

And Sandy still got it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, oh, Sandy never lost it.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's what I'm saying. She is delivering in that teaser, Nicole. I mean, it's really touch and go sometimes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And your favorite actress, Joey King is also there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Of course she is. She's certainly there and working.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think no matter what, we're just gonna have a hard time Fighting against Shauna Mal, having the first two choices and it being Doom Part 3 and the Odyssey, like, that's really tough for us. Unless maybe I took Disclosure Day second, which I might have done that. That sounds like something I would. That's something I would have done. Mallory has a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms on the board. That show ruled. That's great for her. So we'll see how it all pans out. Right now, I'm inclined to say Sean Fennesee won this, but we'll see what happens.

[Rob Mahoney]

Don't give him any credit. Certainly not until he earns it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really don't want to, but here we are. So. Yeah, unless Mando and Grogu is incredible,

[Rob Mahoney]

but, yeah, it's not going to be.

[Joanna Robinson]

The faith is low here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, can I ask you a question while we're in this space? You know, a little more nerd intensive than you and I usually partake in, at least on prestige. I'm looking forward to X Men 97 Season 2. Even still, I am not like up on Polaris or the X Force at all. Are those characters? Is that a character or property that means anything to you?

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I know what it is. It doesn't mean anything to me emotionally or hype wise.

[Rob Mahoney]

I can put Polaris on the family tree.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But other than that, do I know literally anything about this character? No. And apparently quite prominently featured in some of the promotional materials for season two. So I guess we'll find out. I will get familiar.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is there anything that's been announced this year that you regret not picking in the hyped draft?

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, I'm trying to think of what's come out recently.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, nothing has come out, I think, but like, Spider Noir, none of us pick.

[Rob Mahoney]

I wish I had believed in it even more, but I got suckered in. Despite my affinity for the source idea for Nicolas Cage himself by some of the tales of the production, I was like, oh, no. Is this another one of these torture to death concepts that was in development hell for a while? I should have stuck to my guns. I should have stuck to my black and white peashooter, pistol and fedora. That's what I should have done.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Well, what about Supergirl?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, you're fine with that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm hopeful.

[Joanna Robinson]

What about Clayface?

[Rob Mahoney]

That's exciting. Speaking of chills and thrills.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Clayface. I was like, I really wish someone had picked Clayface on there.

[Rob Mahoney]

Also, did Resident Evil get selected?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, so at least that Was off the chart.

[Joanna Robinson]

Shot that a seat.

[Rob Mahoney]

God damn it, Sean.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I don't know. I. I think this is gonna be a really good back half of this year, and especially this summer is gonna be really, really good.

[Rob Mahoney]

We need it. I mean, especially movie wise. It's been a rough couple months overall.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's really just your pick, Project Hail Mary that's keeping hope alive for us.

[Rob Mahoney]

So let's call the vote now, close the polls.

[Joanna Robinson]

What about Mario, the Mario Galaxy thing that you saw and talked to the Midnight Boys about?

[Rob Mahoney]

I covered it. I'm a professional.

[Joanna Robinson]

You watched it?

[Rob Mahoney]

I did watch it, yeah. It was not very good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Tough, sorry to say onto Daredevil. The reason ostensibly we're here today. Rob Mahoney, I've never talked to you about Daredevil. I think that's true.

[Rob Mahoney]

Somehow. That's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was surprised when at this very table, I was like, God, who am I going to get to cover for Mallory? And you were just like, oh, I'll do it. Very helpful. Rob Mahoney, what's your history with Daredevil? What's your in general? What's your relationship with this character? How important is Daredevil or the Daredevil world to you? Rob Mahoney?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I love Daredevil as a character.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Mostly I was introduced to the Ben Affleck virgin. I'm more of an electro purist. Jennifer Garner, Stan, surely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

Mostly like introduced tangentially. Right. Like, Daredevil would pop up in comics I was reading when I was younger that are more like Spider man oriented. He's like a great supporting character to drop in and bounce off of people. But like any Marvel appreciating person in modern life, like, love the Netflix adaptation is so impeccably cast in terms of the source show and then translating into this one. I also just think there's something about this character that really appeals to me on a bunch of different levels. And one of them we've really gotten back into in Born Again season two, which is like, this dude is very Catholic and I am a lapsed Catholic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Catholic boy. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so there's something about my upbringing that rings and resonates. But also I think part of what I really like about Marvel and sometimes I feel like a cold remove from with dc, is like, this is a person who's in a real human place, like, practicing a real actual religion and not just like of Gotham. And so when you watch Daredevil or read Daredevil, like, every panel is a refraction of actual New York or a reflection on what it actually means to exercise like the guilt and grace of being Catholic and to have like that, but also kind of Batman sometimes, like, that's a superhero I can really get behind.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you. Did you ever in your non labs Catholic days and really enjoy standing bathed in the red light of a stained glass window?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's my preferred way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, you gotta do it. I thought we couldn't get the red

[Joanna Robinson]

gels in here for you today.

[Rob Mahoney]

There's still time. Maybe by the third act of this pod, we will be bathed in red and appropriately moody. And this is also an important part of the daredevil formula. I love a brooder. I love just somebody lurking, sulking, chewing in their own discontent.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're of the same family. But would you say you prefer a brooder or a yearner, which is your preferred?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, it's definitely a yearner.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you love a year.

[Rob Mahoney]

But the best brooders are also yearners at heart.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like a square and a rhombus situation.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is why, like, I'm kind of an angel guy, you know? He's both a brooder and a yearner.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you want to sneak in a Buffy. Buffy check in while you're here?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, you guys have already been doing it. Not just in the Buffy pods, but the larger Dex conversation is a spike conversation. And I appreciate your willingness to put yourself on front street in the examination of that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you ever so much. Listen, we'll get to Dex, I promise you. But quickly. While I have you here, we have 5, 6 and 7 left to cover for Buffy. Which season should we bring you on for as a guest between those three?

[Rob Mahoney]

Five's a banger. Would love to guest spot on five. And you know what? I guess very mild spoiler though you've already talked about on the season four pod. I'm happy to be a dawn defender. I'm happy to occupy that chair if you need that chair first.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. It's that chair. That chair is vacant and ready and waiting for you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I already have some very strongly worded emails written and drafted about what you two said about Riley.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, you know, he's pro Riley and pro Don.

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't know if I'm pro Riley. I'm just like, let a guy be a normal guy, you know? They don't all have to be genocidal vampires, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

But you prefer a brooder at a yearner and Riley's just a potato.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, he could use a thought in his head.

[Joanna Robinson]

It would be nice. As for Daredevil, you mentioned you enjoy the Netflix show. How are you enjoying your born again experience? Maybe like in contrast to Netflix show? Or do you just think of them as sort of two different things or how do you feel about it?

[Rob Mahoney]

It's hard to think of them as distinct when they just want to hearken back all the time.

[Joanna Robinson]

Constantly.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, constantly. Just the continued existence of certain characters. The flashback episode this season, like, they clearly want you to be pulled to that place. Yeah, I'm more willing to do it this season than I was last. Just cause season one was such a disaster structurally. This at least, I mean, in its highest highs kind of does feel a little bit like the Netflix Daredevil. I don't think the hit rate is quite the same. No, I don't think the dialogue is quite as crisp. Even the fights, like, some of the fights are quite good and some of them are just like, do you have action?

[Joanna Robinson]

A favorite fight so far this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm trying to go back through. But even, like, even if you take episode six, for example, the two different Jessica Jones fights, like the warehouse fight, I quite like the, like, we're not even going to show you the action because we're in the house fight. Like, that's kind of bush league TV stuff. I don't really like bush league. I mean, it is. That's save. We're saving budget, you know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, but. Or we're teasing a reveal.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know what, let's get into what I'm calling our medium. Ish dip, Not a deep dive. And we'll talk about Jessica Jones right after this. Okay. Jessica Jones shows up in this episode, but I would say, once again, barely here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

How are we feeling about how much Jessica Jones was promoted for this season versus how much they're using her this season?

[Rob Mahoney]

Not good at present.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. But there's one more episode to go

[Rob Mahoney]

and she has a dramatic return at the end of this episode. So it's like we are promised that she will play some kind of more significant role in the finale.

[Joanna Robinson]

You think more significant or just another two or three scenes?

[Rob Mahoney]

I hope to God it's more significant.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. I don't know. I haven't seen the finale, but I thought, you know, we waited, we waited, we waited. She showed up in six. Then I was like, okay, maybe seven will be the Jessica Jones episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

Kind of felt that way.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then the finale is the finale. The finale cannot be the, quote, the Jessica Jones episode. So there's not gonna be One that's like, really her episode this season. The way that, like, I would argue Bullseye got his episode this season, you know, and so will this be. Is this all just set up for season three? Are we just sort of like laying the path? We get a Luke Cage mention inside of this episode. We have some thoughts and theories about what's going on with Luke Cage, possibly Danny Rand, because both Mike Coulter and Finn Jones are going to be in season three of Daredevil, Born again for some reason. So how do you wish they had used her? Or what are you enjoying most about the way they have used her?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I want to leave my heart somewhat open to whatever happens in the finale.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're an optimistic guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

I am an optimistic guy. I do think the writing of this season and her inclusiveness in it is just like doing her absolutely zero favors when she shows up, like for these conversations with Charles, for example, and she's the exposition deliverer and he's the guy who gets to make the quips. Like, you have messed up the formula on a very fundamental level with this character. And I want to acknowledge that it's not the easiest thing. I think Jessica is much better as the damaged hero of her own story than she is as a drive by sidekick for one like this. And especially given that it's been so long for Krysten Ritter and Jessica Jones, both in this space. Just like dropping her back into this world, like, you have to do some legwork. You have to, you know, create some inroads for that character to be here, but you could do better than this. And just the fact that they even have commentary within the episode of like, we're on yet another generic rooftop. Making your generic rooftop jokes does not change the fact that you're on another generic rooftop. Like, you had to do better than this.

[Joanna Robinson]

I did enjoy the sunglasses in that scene. And like, Cherry has been a tough character because this show has really struggled, I think, with the gallery of side characters that they've presented over the last two seasons. And their some we really enjoy and some we feel frustrated. And then some, like, I would say Cherry and Kirsten who just feel like because they're tertiary or in some cases sort of even lower than that, it just sort of feels like, am I supposed to sort of appreciate these people in the full human experience of their life or are they just here to deliver exposition? Or in Kirsten's case, in this episode, look incredible in a suit in a courtroom.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, you know, that green suit great is working.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great stuff.

[Rob Mahoney]

The scales of Justice Lapel Pen. Incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really good shit. But yeah, I think the show's really struggled with his side characters in general. And Sherry, certainly this season has been even more sidelined, I think, to make room for more care and stuff and stuff like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

You have not talked about this some with Vanessa, with some of the other storylines. I do think here in season two, they have a better feel for what's working and what isn't and are starting to sideline some of those characters more overtly. We just don't see very much of Cherry for good reason. He can be the person who brings in the other cops when you need the escort to get you to the parking garage. But other than that, he just doesn't really have a function in the story anymore.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was like damseled at the beginning of the season, essentially. And that worked well. That sort of his heart slowing sort of sequence, I thought worked really well. But to bring him back here. But I did enjoy sort of the PI to PI sort of interaction that he and Jessica had.

[Rob Mahoney]

But she doesn't get to be a PI. I think that's what's weird too. There's so many ways she could have been introduced. Why couldn't it be her and Matt chasing the same case and winding up at the same scene of whatever crime you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you think that. So I hear what you're saying. I agree with that. Like, she works better as the damage star of her own show versus a sidekick. But is there a way in which she's used more meaningfully? Or there is a storyline that's more meaningfully centered on her and perhaps are setting that up for season three. When we hear that, like, Luke Cage and possibly Danny Rand are elsewhere in the world together doing stuff for the government. Why is Luke Cage working for the government? Mr. Like you falsely imprisoned me. I'm going to be like the hero of Harlem. Like what? You know, did they have leverage on him? What was the offer there? Did they threaten his daughter? How can you threaten Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, two of the most powerful people in the world?

[Rob Mahoney]

Kind of asterisk on Jessica, at least.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Motherhood takes it. Anything else you want to say about Jessica Jones?

[Rob Mahoney]

I just. I'm going to need more. Yeah, I'm going to need more. Whether that's in the finale, whether that's in season three. But I'm hoping it's sooner than season three.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's now my favorite moment of the podcast. I'm calling it Bullseye. Check in with Rob Mahoney. Rob, do you get the hype. How are you feeling about Bullseye?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean. You're goddamn right I do. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

How can you not?

[Joanna Robinson]

He's so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's very good. I would say, overall, with this season. Yeah. You have your daredevil mainstays, and then there are really two characters who I would say are, like, elevating almost every scene that they're in. One of them is Buck, who I think has been consistently quite good. I am a Buck Cashman guy has so many interesting relationships with so many different characters on the show at this point. And then Bullseye's obviously the other one. Like, he is magnetic on the screen in a way that they're clearly trying to wrangle and figure out what to do with. And this is where, I mean, just the spikification is off the charts as far as, like, don't think too much about the truly villainous and evil things he has done, because look at this man saunter. I mean, the swagger as he's leaving Governor Lily Taylor's house mansion, having saved

[Joanna Robinson]

the life of Governor Lily Taylor.

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

Come on. That's one good deed. Don't worry about Father Lance. Don't worry about Foggy. Don't think about it.

[Rob Mahoney]

We are told the scales are even now. Yeah. Balance, we're leveled out.

[Joanna Robinson]

And now he can do whatever he wants. So there are rumors circulating that Val. You know, that Val could recruit Bullseye for future missions in the mcu.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would you want to see him joining the Thunderbolts?

[Rob Mahoney]

I like that. I like that pairing. I think where I'm getting conflicted is,

[Joanna Robinson]

do I want more Thunderbolts?

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I do want more Thunderbolts.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Rob Mahoney]

I am among. I mean, the greatest Julia Louis Dreyfus appreciators on the planet. She is maybe the most miscast person in the history of the mcu.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really agree. Would you, and I know you always prefer a man to do a woman's job. Would you prefer to replace her with Matthew Lillard as Mr. Charles?

[Rob Mahoney]

Here's the thing. He's not good in this either.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, he's not.

[Rob Mahoney]

This is a bad character and a bad part, and he's fine. It's not a terrible performance.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a weight. I would say the two biggest waste of a great actor in the season. Lily Taylor. Governor Lily Taylor.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

You have Lily Taylor. This is what you're doing.

[Rob Mahoney]

Refer to her by her title, please.

[Joanna Robinson]

Of course. Still, Governor. Can't kill her. Lily Taylor and Matthew Lillard. I was so excited for Lillard to Join the show. And it's just been a real confusing mess. And that whole arm of the mcu, the val. I loved the movie Thunderbolt, but I really agree with you about the way that VAL has been used across the board. It's been like a real misfire. So do I want Bullseye? I mean, here's what I think Bullseye should do next. I think they should just give him a Punisher esque special. Like, he should get an MCU special.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm cool for that.

[Joanna Robinson]

To prove that he can, like. Cause I know he can. But just to, like, prove to the brass, the Marvel brass, he can.

[Rob Mahoney]

He's got some pull.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. He can headline his own thing and then think about putting him in the larger sort of MCU in a more significant way. Questions about, you know, they're obviously incorporating Punisher into the Spider man movie. We have questions about the way in which Charlie Cox has been sort of sprinkled here and there. I think it would be kind of funny if Wilson Bethel's Dex gets promoted to, like, a MCU movie character in a more significant way before poor Charlie Cox. Daredevil, the one that, like, people have been asking since the beginning being correct,

[Rob Mahoney]

or at least an MCU attorney.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's true. He has appeared superhero at law. But, yeah, I mean, and I talked about this before, but I just want to reiterate. I think it's so smart. I think it's smarter to pivot to the strengths of your actor than it is to worry too much about. Does this seem inconsistent with the character we presented? Because the way that they presented Dex in season three of Daredevil is worlds different now. Grant you, this man fell off a roof and had his entire like.

[Rob Mahoney]

And his prescriptions changed.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, his entire. His entire head cantalouped, essentially. So, like, if his personality is entirely different, that's fine. But it's working. It's so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's also. They burn through so much plot on these shows in a soap operatic kind of way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I almost like, did I even remember that Karen was responsible for her brother's death? I gotta be honest, I did not. Like, that was just like, lost to time in a way that if the performances are good. And this is where I completely agree with you on leaning into what your actors can do and kind of what presence they occupy on screen. This is almost the same reason why I'm a little bit of a Karen apologist, too. Because if you ask me to articulate who that character is, I can't do it. They have swerved all over the road season to season. They've never even in the Netflix days, have.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just like Karen when she drove Dunk and killed her brother.

[Rob Mahoney]

Okay, that's uncalled for, but I thought

[Joanna Robinson]

you needed the reminder.

[Rob Mahoney]

I honestly did. But Deborah Ann Wolle is like such an appealing and compelling performer and she and Charlie Cox have good chemistry together. I see you might feel very differently about that. No, no, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm not as negative on Karen as Malorie is. Malorie's the number one Karen hater.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's why I'm taking my opportunity while Mal's gone.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know. Yeah. To defend Riley and to defend Karen and Mallory.

[Rob Mahoney]

Someone has to do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was just gonna ask you, how much do you think of that as informed by your True Blood fandom?

[Rob Mahoney]

It genuinely is. Yeah, there is that association.

[Joanna Robinson]

Vampire Jessica was a great character and she was great as Vampire Jessica.

[Rob Mahoney]

A better charact, if we're all being honest about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, yeah, I definitely carry over, and we're talking about this a bit later with some other actors on the show, but I definitely carry over an appreciation for Deborah Ann Woll and what I know she can do into what I would say is a very messy arc for or arcs for Karen consistently.

[Rob Mahoney]

And this is where Dex, to me, is very different because, yeah, they're leaning into what you're getting from an acting perspective. The charisma that is so different from what you get from a Frank Castle, for example, like the gruffness versus the charm and the smirking, I think plays really well. And yet both are great foils for Daredevil. Right. They're great mirror characters to have. I think Dex has some of that moment to moment enjoyability of just like watching him on screen that the best characters on Daredevil do. But also so many of the thematic ties that you really need if you're going to be a multi season character in the way he's turned out to be.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know that I fully understand what Matt's whole courtroom plan is or was. Karen seemed to telepathically understand what his.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, there's a lot of that in this episode of like, let's not talk about the plan for dramatic reasons, let's just do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

So it's just like Matt returns under the protection of the camera and then he knows once the cameras are off, he's in trouble or something like that. I thought just for a second that what the plan might be is Matt Murdock lawyer shows up and then Dex puts the Daredevil suit back on because he wore it in season three, and they're in the same place at the same time. And he's like, see? I can't be Daredevil. That's Daredevil.

[Rob Mahoney]

Couldn't possibly be me.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm blind lawyer Matt Murdock. Can't be the same person.

[Rob Mahoney]

But who? Who would that be fooling? I don't know, because Wilson knows definitively well.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wilson knows, but then the public would never know.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I guess that's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wilson is invested in Matt not being revealed because Matt heroically saved Wilson in season one of Born Again. And so if we find out that Matt Murdock is Daredevil, he can't say Daredevil, that villain who, oops, saved my life at the end of season one. So I suspect possibly part of Matt's whole plan is to unmask himself in the finale, but I don't know for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

It could be. I'm not sure the plan is that well thought out. It feels a little like Luke showing up to Jabba's palace. Like, I'm gonna figure it out, I guess. Kind of winging it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you seen my new black turtleneck?

[Rob Mahoney]

Come on.

[Joanna Robinson]

And my shiny boots? Can't I do my Chanel boots? I got this. I got this. Anything else you want to say about Bullseye before we move on?

[Rob Mahoney]

I can't think of anything else other than. I mean, I could have used more of him in this episode, but even the glancing blow that we get, it's just, like, so clear that I would be sad if he turns into a larger MCU character and not a recurring Daredevil character. Like, the show might need him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Daredevil be worse for the lack of him. Yeah, for sure.

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, they would have to fill that void. And you're already kind of dipping into the Rogues gallery pretty heavily between this and the Netflix show.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't think that Danny ran Iron Fist himself can fill that charisma?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah, No, I don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, interesting.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I will say I appreciate the swing of that, like, the ambition of, like, everyone hates this character.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're bringing him back.

[Rob Mahoney]

What if we could save him? What if we could redeem him in the eyes of, like. I mean. Cause Dex has been a smaller scale version of that where I wouldn't say he's ever as disastrous as Danny Rand was, but he was kind of bland and generic and, like, a huge hit for people.

[Joanna Robinson]

For Non, Wilson Bethel. I came in as a Wilson Bethel fan, but, like, for Non, they're just sort of like, okay, I guess this is this version of, of Dex. And then they're like, oh, he can do this.

[Rob Mahoney]

Oh, he's often the most compelling thing on the show.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, it's, it's interesting. I will say 4 and 5. The reason we're covering the rest of the season week to week is because 4 and 5 really duped Mallory and me into thinking this was like a bullseye show, a better show than it is. Because, like, I don't think it's terrible, But I think 4 and 5 and Arjuna warned us of this. But 4 and 5, I think are like the peak of the season for me. The more deck centric stuff. And then six, seven, and then we'll see what the finale does. But like, I would say six was. I think this is, I don't know, it's just a very messy show.

[Rob Mahoney]

It is messy, but I just like it.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's great.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, maybe it is. I have a lot of forgiveness for Daredevil and Matt in my heart for many different reasons.

[Joanna Robinson]

Even when for Catholic reasons.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, generally Catholic reasons, but also like courtroom drama. Here's a surprise co counsel. It's just like such a.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was fun.

[Rob Mahoney]

It's such a stupid and fun and amazing move that I I those parts of the show appeal to me. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

[Joanna Robinson]

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[Joanna Robinson]

have a surprise MVP of the episode?

[Rob Mahoney]

I think it's the same as yours because there's only one answer.

[Joanna Robinson]

And what's your answer,

[Rob Mahoney]

Joe? I don't know how they did this. And speaking of comeback stories. Yeah, they made Heather Interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dr. Heather Glenn.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sorry, they made Dr. Heather Glenn like Dr. Chase Meridian.

[Joanna Robinson]

You have to use her full name.

[Rob Mahoney]

Future serial killer s herself.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dr. Heather Glenn, as I live and breathe. She's fantastic in this episode.

[Rob Mahoney]

She's so good. All it took was her choking out a guide to the point of orgasm and also like slapping Karen Page around a little bit.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's been a like to your Buck Cashman point. I think the scene where she and Buck are sat together at the dinner earlier this season, that was like the first. I was like, wow, I'm really enjoying this Heather scene. This is great.

[Rob Mahoney]

I literally sat up on my couch.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was like, oh, oh, this is good. This is working.

[Rob Mahoney]

I didn't know this could be a thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And then the choke out orgasm scene,

[Rob Mahoney]

which I also want to agree with Mallory canonically, she definitely choked him to completion.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so you are, in her absence, defending Karen, defending Riley but agreeing with her, making sure she forgives you by agreeing with her about this orgasm case she's making her.

[Rob Mahoney]

That's not the point of what I'm doing. I'm just agreeing because it's a good argument on the merits.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the first canonical orgasm we have in the larger Marvel Cinematic Television project?

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely not. Because I think you're forgetting about a film called the Eternals.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, I'm like, two planks of wood grinding against each other. Is not an orgasm canonically an orgasm? Let me tell you. I watched it, you know when you see it, and that was not it.

[Joanna Robinson]

They completed something in their wooden way. But Dr. Heather Glenn just like really fun in this episode. Really fun as a villain. What they're setting up. The rumor is that she will be playing Lady Muse so that she will be taking over the Persona of Muse in the next season. And people pointed out that the tear tracks down her face during her, I guess, orgasm in the last episode match the sort of like blood tears that are down the face of the. Of the Muse mask. The earring looks a lot like the earring that she stole and then was given. The other pair from Wilson matches the sort of like bloody sunburst pattern on the chest of the Muse character. So, like, they're really sort of setting this up for her to be maybe the villain or at least a villain of season three. And I am really into it. And like Heather and Buck Cashman together killing people and having orgasms. Sounds great to me.

[Rob Mahoney]

It does sound great. Two killers killing people having orgasms. The premise for its own spin off show. Like, I would watch them as the leads in their own twisted project.

[Joanna Robinson]

This. This begs the question, why have they not adapted the sex crimes comic book from Matt Fraction? I just like, that's such a good idea. And I don't know why it hasn't

[Rob Mahoney]

been made sitting there on the developmental shelf.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then my runner up for MVP is Kirsten's courtroom fit. But we've already talked about that. But I just thought it was extraordinary.

[Rob Mahoney]

Before we even get to the Kirsten stuff, like, I mean, for one Margarita Leviva, I find to be a really interesting actor if you give her something to lord over people or a secret to hold. And this character now kind of has both.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is your task. Experience her performance on task or what else is he?

[Rob Mahoney]

Someone on task. But even just on this show, you can just see the transformation as soon as she is grasping any kind of power for herself and I love that kind of engagement with the cortex of Daredevil. Right. There's this idea of, if vigilantes are out in the world, does that make you feel more protected or like you are pawns in the game of all of these superheroes and quasi superheroes who are fighting around you? And the idea that even for someone as traumatized as she is a part of the story that I just didn't think really worked before this. But the long track to get us here feels like kind of a miracle in turning this into a person who I kind of buy that she would grasp onto whatever version of a sort of power she could hold to feel more stable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Her as, like, this is how she's processing her ptsd, Especially since she's been guided, like, physician, heal thyself. Perhaps a therapist should have gone to some therapy, but she decided not to. She decided to.

[Rob Mahoney]

She literally mandated for them to do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

She decided to consult the bottle. That's one therapist she went to Buck Cashman. That's an idea. And we'll see. That's therapy inside of this episode. It was like, hey, your impulses. Interesting. Maybe lean into those. What she was cast as in season one was marital therapists to Vanessa and Wilson. Yep. And then sort of sadly yearning love interest for Matt Murdock. Like, these are terrible positions to be in.

[Rob Mahoney]

Not good.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then this is just so much more interesting. Like, extremely damaged, morally compromised from the beginning of the season when she changes her. The test that she completed for the Swordsman. And then, yeah, I've really enjoyed this. And we have landed in a really good place with her completely. That scene is my favorite Karen scene of the season. And I thought her scene with Wilson was actually also really good in this episode. But this is a good Karen page mode. And so Karen being, like, snide and fuck you, and I get to fuck Matt Murdock, and you don't like all this sort of stuff. And then. And then Heather's response. Heather projecting her own feeling of powerlessness onto onto Karen, saying, like, what is it like to be a pawn of all these men? Did they abuse you? Did they do this? Did they do that? And you're like, again, physician, heal thyself. I have seen the pit. You need to talk to a therapist. This is great. This is just, like. It's frustrating to me that with a property as good as Daredevil, it has taken them this long to figure these certain things out. And I know that they were tasked with something really tough in season one of sort of Like Franken creating something out of a version of the show that came before. This has been a long road to where we are, but to get Dex here, to get Heather here, like, these are. We're swinging in the right direction is what I can say for the show.

[Rob Mahoney]

And I think there are some payoffs to even that long road. Right. Like the idea of Allian Heather, with Fisk specifically, like, she has come to a place where part of the core frustration of Kingpin and what makes him such a great character is, like, he has that untouchable quality, whether it's because of the money that insulates him or now the political power that insulates him. And so it's like he gets to do all these heinous things and, like, you can't touch him, you can't get to him. And she has her version of that in this scene. Right. Like, she is the legit one. Karen is the criminal by circumstance, and she gets to literally assault Karan. She gets to try to provoke her and the joint. Like we are manipulating each other or attempting to, but also being borderline puppeteered by each other in the process. Like, this is one of the best fights of the season, not even including the physical part of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right, Right. I really agree. I will tell you this. When this episode dropped earlier this week, Mallory watched it before me and she texted me, have you watched Daredevil yet? I said, no, I'm just starting it right now. And she said, you must text me immediately when you finish. And I was like, uh, oh, something very special for Mal. I was worried about my guide decks, but it was her guy, Daniel Blake, who doesn't make it out of this episode alive.

[Rob Mahoney]

Sure does not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Um, Matt's interesting to talk about in his own right. Just because I just want to represent for Mallory, who was quite upset by this, sent me a lot of all caps texts about it. She flew out yesterday. When she landed, she was like, I don't have to Arjuna me. She's like, I don't have texts from either of you asking, like, checking in on my mental well being after Daniel Blake has been killed. What's going on?

[Rob Mahoney]

I thought she was pro murder of any Yankee fan.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, she loves Daniel Blake.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, that's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

She just loves him. So Daniel Blake dies in this episode. But for those people who are listening or watching this podcast who have not been online the last couple days, Variety posted this write up about the episode that I saw immediately after the episode was over, and I sent it to Mallory and she's like, this is unhinged. The original version of this episode, he doesn't die. Buck decides to not kill him. But they changed their mind. And so they digitally inserted like a gunshot. And his death was done in post. So that look that Buck gives him as he walks out the door is not a, I killed my friend. This is so tough. It's a, I spared my friend. What consequences await me. But we have to reinterpret his whole performance because they changed their mind and decided to kill this character that originally the whole point of the scene was Daniel convinces Buck to not kill him. And instead of rewriting it or reshooting it, they just added a gunshot to it to make the outcome completely different. And that's just indicative of the entire Daredevil show, as far as I'm concerned and really frustrating. But I guess my question to you is. Cause you and I, since the pit concluded, have been hearing all of these scenes that were cut from the pit finale, just like countless scenes that were cut from the pit finale. So my question is, do you feel like this is ramping up in the television space, that they're just making these weird in the edit room, in the post sort of decisions? Or do we just know too much as consumers? And like, I really wish I didn't know this definitely about Daniel Blake. Sorry that I now spread it to anyone who's listening to this who didn't know this. And like, with the pit, I am kind of glad I know about all the stuff they cut from the pit. But also, I'm just like. But maybe I would have enjoyed. I would be still enjoying it more if I didn't know all the things they left behind. What do you think?

[Rob Mahoney]

This one I almost think you kind of have to talk about on some level at some point. And part of that is my trepidation about what's gonna happen in the next episode. Because here, the wild part about all this, I think it works. I think in this moment at the end of this episode, it does land and it does hit, and it hit me pretty hard. I think part of the reason that's true is because the contrast of like this in over his head, very, like warm blooded, hard on his sleeve character getting killed in this very cold, detached way does play with the, like, very surgical edit that they had to do using cgi. But what happens in the next episode with everything else that they've shot, assuming that he survived and you're now going to have to.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's gonna be like an ADR from like behind his head Being like. Like it's done or something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, the pit stuff is almost a different category where it's like, there's clearly some tension at the heart of that show in terms of the people making it and performing on it. And I feel like some actors feel a sense of obligation to say, like, oh, actually, there was all this other stuff with my character that's supposed to be informing what I do, but this is why it's weird.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I'm also surprised that this story made it to Variety, you know, and not. Not only did the actor who played. Who plays Buck Cashman talk about it, but, like, the showrunners talked about it. Like, this decision, that's kind of what

[Rob Mahoney]

makes me feel like it must be unavoidable in the finale. Like, it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Either.

[Rob Mahoney]

We just don't see Buck again in the finale at all, which is, frankly, what I might do under these circumstances. If you're gonna make a dramatic narrative shift like this, because otherwise, I don't know how you're just gonna be able to ADR and edit your way through a dramatically different story decision like that.

[Joanna Robinson]

If he's gra. Like, I don't think you can have a scene between Buck and Kingpin, but we'll see. But I feel like you could have a Dr. Heather Glenn and Buck Cashman. We're in the shit now, like, sex scene. Because he's gonna be feeling like, I'm fucked because I didn't kill Daniel.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, and if you can somehow translate that to I'm fucked. I'm getting fucked. Working through my grief that I killed my friend.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll see what happens on the Gandolfini front. It sounds like you were really enjoying his performance as Mallory.

[Rob Mahoney]

I quite did. I think, in a way that, like, has this, like, fun mirror with the character. Right. Cause, like, the character in the story is sort of like, winning over begrudging people left and right. And there's something about the performance. It's like, this is not of this show. And yet he just kind of worms his way in, and you feel a certain affection and investment in his story.

[Joanna Robinson]

I had the exact same journey where Mallory, like, right out the gate was into him, and I was like, I'm not sure. And now I'm like, I'm a miss him.

[Rob Mahoney]

I really miss him. And especially, like, he. He and Buck as characters. Like that was one of the most successful relationships developed within this season.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And so that's part of why it hits hard for me is like. Like, you're Feeling the loss of that, but the loss of something that was actually good and not just like, we're writing Vanessa in whatever form she existed off the show now.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. It's interesting. I had a conversation with Eric Voss of New Rockstars, and he was texting me. He's like, joanna, what am I? He was like, not really into the Gandolfini performance. And so he's like, what am I missing? Like, what are you enjoying that I'm missing? And we had a great conversation about it. And what I. What we concluded it was my suspicion. I was like, are you a big Sopranos guy?

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I was like, I can understand. You know, you. And I very famously have not watched more than a few episodes of the Sopranos, so I have watched other Gandolfini performances. You know, I'm a big. I'm a big fan of his work, but I don't have so many years with Tony Soprano in my mind. And Michael. I saw Saints of Newark for some reason, which is the Sopranos prequel. Michael Gandolfini played his dad, literally. But I was talking to Eric Voss about this, and I was like, it's kind of like Lewis Pullman, where, like, I like Lewis Pullman.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I never watch a Lewis Pullman performance and don't think about his dad. I'm always thinking about Bill Pullman. Like, Lewis Pullman. Like, there are Nepo babies out there who have made. Who either, like, don't look so much like their parent or have made decisions, whether it's like you're Dakota Johnson's or your Jack Waits or whatever the case may be, have made chosen roles that are distinct enough from what their parents would have done that I'm not, like, preoccupied by this. But what Michael Gandolfini is doing here is a James Gandolfini role, kind of. And what Lewis Pullman does is often a Bill Pullman role. And so they're sort of, like, consciously or just taking what opportunities come to them. I mean, Louis Pullman is literally doing Spaceballs, too. You know what I mean? So, like, in ways. There are ways in which they're leaning into it. So if I had the specter of James Gandolfini sort of, like, looming over this performance, I might have a harder time appreciating it. Vos was saying, just talking about how the way that Gandolfini, like, in his silences, with a glance, with a look, could convey so much, and I actually think my, like, experience with Michael Gandolfini is, like, he can do that. In the scene in last week's episode when he's looking at Bibi and, like, blowing out the candles, there's just, like, nine different things happening across his face that, like, really, really worked for me. But I can. I can understand why, if I was a huge Sopranos devotee, it might get in the way of my enjoyment here. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Rob Mahoney]

I can. I can understand that. And, yeah, there's certainly something with all of these Nepo baby actors where you're right. It's either like, you're leaning in hard or you get the glimpse that sort of takes you out of it. Like, I do get that with Margaret Qualley sometimes, too, where it's like, you catch the right angle and it's like Quaid too, sometimes.

[Joanna Robinson]

His grin. You're like, there's your dad. I see it, you know. Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

But I think you make a really smart observation about the way they can kind of steer around that with the parts that they play. I actually think this is not a Gandolfini part, a James Gandolfini part. Like, to me, it is, for lack of a better word, like, so much more of a pathetic character. Like, he's. He's down on his luck in a different way than I've seen James Gandolfini play. And so I think there is something about. And this is kind of baked into the text of his relationship with BB Too, that's like, a little pitiable, A little. Like, again, it's the way he ingratiates himself with people. Some of it's just like the in over his head. Like, literally, how is this character on the show in this capacity is kind of mind blowing. But I do think it's distinct enough where even if I were more Sopranos inclined, I don't know if it would take me out.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do think that James Gamol Feni always had, just because of his physicality, always had, like, a bit more of an imposing physicality that he could sometimes play against. Like. Like, Get Shorty is, like, one of my favorite Gandolfini performances. And he is kind of like, on the back foot, you know? Like, he gets beat up through that whole movie. Like, he shows up, he's supposed to be, like, the muscle, and then he just gets the shit kicked out of him constantly. And he's kind of this, like, you know, aw, shucks kind of character, but it's in contrast to his physicality. Whereas Michael Gandolfini as Daniel Blake is just much more of a, like, overall quote, unquote loser. But a loser that you, like, love. He grows on you.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, it's like a Cooper Hoffman kind of loser, you know, I think they occupy a weird, similar space.

[Joanna Robinson]

They really do. Where are you with Cooper Hoffman?

[Rob Mahoney]

Like, I mean, pro, but that's another actor where you'll see the clips or the moments go around and it's like, oh, that is your dad coming out. That one feels. I mean, it may be welcome in a different way, just because I feel like his baseline performance style is quite different. And so a couple moments don't necessarily take me out of it. It really is like a time and place thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thing. Anything else you want to say about Daniel Blake, the dear departed?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, I think my hope.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sorry, no, please, one more layer. Because we got this version of the story from Variety where they're like, we just made the story decision. My hope is actually Michael Gandolfini had other acting, like, other things he wanted to do, but then I was, like, looking, and there's nothing coming up for him, but, like, I really hope that someone else picks him up and. And really uses him because I think he, like, of the people in this show, he is one where I was like, you have potential for a really bright future out of this performance.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, though, in that vein, I do agree with you, and I hope that for him, too. I do think this is the right story decision. Like, the version of the events that we see here, where they are close enough for this to haunt Buck, but not for him to stop, I think tracks. And certainly you get the contrasts in a bunch of different ways, right? Like, who is deserving of grace and forgiveness? Where are you? Like, where is your individual line? Clearly, Buck is, like, so far beyond whatever that used to be, but also for these characters, like, you know, Kingpin isn't the only person who sees himself, right, like, in ultimate. Like, what Daniel is and where he came from. Like, I think getting the reveal with Buck that, like, he came from his own humble beginnings and has had to reinvent himself and has had to, like, fake it until he makes it in this other weird kind of wetwork adjacent capacity. Like, I like the idea that he killed this person who he was fond of because he felt like he had to, and in doing so is like killing a former version of himself.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is this why you smoothed out any Texas twang from your. From your voice to really smooth out nothing?

[Rob Mahoney]

Trust me, every time. Every time I say y', all, it comes right back out.

[Joanna Robinson]

It comes right back out. All right? You're obviously Enjoying this show, I would say, a bit more than I am in general, and that's great to have on this podcast. But, like, do you think this is a good season? Let's just talk about Charlie Cox, because we've been talking about all these other characters on the show, but the show is called Daredevil. So, like, is this a good season for Charlie Cox? Has the Disney era served him at all this Matt Murdock? Because I thought Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock on Netflix was one of the best superhero performances I had ever seen. Just, like, that tormented Catholicness, the street level, the, like, seeing him actually, like, bruised and battered and bloodied and limping through the streets of Hell Kitchen. Like. Like, his clumsy costumes that he would wear. Like, all of these things just really, really worked for me. And I just. And, like, I would say in the Disney era, the best place he's been used is she Hulk. I thought his episode of she Hulk was so good.

[Rob Mahoney]

Really fun.

[Joanna Robinson]

This was a really, really good, like, moment. It's like a funnier Matt Murdock, but, like, a really, really good use of Charlie Cox's charm. What? The special skills that Daredevil has, you know, in every way, but I mean, specifically in the.

[Rob Mahoney]

And, I mean, he has a bullseye kind of precision in his own way, you know? Like, I think there's a lot. There's a lot of value in these things.

[Joanna Robinson]

He never misses. But, like, is this show serving him? Is it giving him enough to work with?

[Rob Mahoney]

I don't think what it's giving him to work with is necessarily great. The writing this season is, I would say, a marked improvement over season one. But Matt Murdock, Daredevil is not particularly cogent in this version of the show. Like, who he is from moment to moment, from episode to episode, from scene to scene, doesn't entirely track. I think it is to Charlie Cox's incredible credit that most of the time, I'm not even really thinking about it. And then he'll say something. I'm like, daredevil would literally never say that. Matt Murdock would never think that. That doesn't make sense for this character. But I do think that conversation has shifted somewhat this season because Matt is a, like, functionally disappeared from the story for a lot of the season. Right? It has been like, you are kind of Daredevil all the time because Matt Murdock has to be in hiding. And so, like, the public facade part of being Matt Murdock is gone from the story. I think Charlie Cox plays Daredevil and the physicality of Daredevil. Amazing. Amazingly well, no matter what the circumstances are. And, like, within that, there's the brutality, there's the exhaustion. You're talking about, like, I do wish this version of the show would lean into that stuff more. The, like, I have to go find, you know, the night nurse to, like, heal myself up from the cost of participating in this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pints of blood. People put, like, grappling hooks.

[Rob Mahoney]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, like, what's happening. Yeah. Like, his. The. And I'm not even talking about this in, like, a pervy, horny way. Just, like, the map of his body, which, like, we see so much in the Netflix show of just sort of like, this is the cost, this is the damage.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is what this has done to you. And I would say, you know, to your point earlier in this episode, when you were talking about harkening back to the Netflix show, the flashback episode where we get to see Matt Murdock and Foggy together, like, that felt recognizably Matt Murdock to me. They know how to write that mode of Matt Murdock. But this version where he's like, I won't kill, but I'm also in a much more angrier, brutal space where I let out these carnal screams when I'm fighting and stuff like that. Like, I just. I don't know how to square who he is in any kind of way. And similarly with Karen, up until this episode, like, similarly with Karen, I just don't know how to. Are their philosophies, you know, different and clashing? Or are they in sync together? Or, you know, what's the larger unifying principle here? Or, like, what has inspired the change? Like, Foggy's death in season one is this huge inspiration for Matt to change certain things. I understand, but, like, I just really wish the Daredevil show were doing a better job of serving Charlie Cox, who, when he shows up on any other thing, in any other movie, in any other show, you're excited to see him, you know, and here I just want more for him. This should be his show.

[Rob Mahoney]

It should.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

And instead, it does feel like he holds it down. Right. Like, he's. I wouldn't say he's ever the problem, certainly not from a performance standpoint. In any of these scenes. I think the grunting, yelling while fighting, part of the character actually does work for me, maybe a little better than it is for you. I think, to me, that is part of what makes Daredevil so fun and so different from everything else. In the mcu, like all these other heroes, they have these powers that make them and put them in a space where the fights look and feel different. And so the idea that he not only is getting bruised and battered, but has to summon this rage to be able to fight off an entire task force of people, that is appealing to me. I think being Daredevil is hard. And that is so much the core of the best version of this show, if not necessarily this season. But Charlie Cox makes being Daredevil look pretty easy in terms of what he is doing physically within that suit in a way that a lot of the other actors in the MCU and these Marvel shows just do not.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a good point. What are you hoping for from the finale?

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, the Jessica stuff, for sure. I need something more from Jessica Jones being on this series. I also need some more courtroom theatrics. I would like to go back. I don't know if that's even realistic after we've had a shootout in the courthouse parking garage, but one of the

[Joanna Robinson]

most, like, incoherent action sequences I've seen in a long time.

[Rob Mahoney]

Speaking of the files of Matt Murdock definitely murdered this man. He threw his cane through the window of the. Through the windshield of the suv, Leaf on the wind style and definitely killed that driver. Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

But he won't kill Wilson Fisk because he has a code.

[Rob Mahoney]

You know, he has a code.

[Joanna Robinson]

How dare you invoke leaf on the.

[Rob Mahoney]

Is that not exactly, like, spear through the windshield? I guess technically you could say he like locked the steering wheel with his cane, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, like the club.

[Rob Mahoney]

We should.

[Joanna Robinson]

We should get that whole sequence again, except from the POV of these AVTF guys, and just be like, oh, we liked that guy.

[Rob Mahoney]

Their tragic backstory.

[Joanna Robinson]

Their tragic backstory.

[Rob Mahoney]

I actually did have that thought about to rewind for a second to the Heather stuff. Like, not to rewrite the show in its entirety, but how differently would we feel about this character if we kind of started in something closer to this place? Right. If it's like. I think again, the Netflix Daredevil actually did a quite good job with some of these supporting characters, your Wesley types like, showing up in their current present day form and you get like shreds of backstory that tell you kind of how they got here and why they might be like, particularly up in the way that they are. But I wonder if the whole Heather experience might have been different if we sort of parachuted in with her already being, like, pretty tormented.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, it sounds like she does have that backstory. We just didn't really, you know, because, like, when she's talking to Karen about, like, did your brother abuse you? I'm just like, where did that come from? Heather. Your own.

[Rob Mahoney]

Well, her files.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Special files.

[Rob Mahoney]

She's got incredible files.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. I mean, do you need, like, if we get a big showdown between Wilson Fisk and Daredevil, we already got a fight between them, but are we gonna get a big finale fight? And what do. Like, is that interesting? We've seen it so many times. What would be an interesting outcome from that? Like, I. I completely understand why Fisk is here. D' Onofrio playing Fisk is like a five course meal. Like, it is something very special. So I understand, but it's just like, because we've done it in season one and season three of Netflix and now for two seasons here.

[Rob Mahoney]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like, you know, we keep circling the drain on these two. It's not like a finally, these two are gonna clash. I'm like, I saw it two episodes ago. Is he gonna punch another brick pillar again? Like, you know, like, what. What do I want? I don't. I don't know.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think this is where I do want the courtroom part of it to have some kind of authority. Like, I'm not naive enough to think, like, you take down Wilson Fisk with the law, necessarily, but this idea thematically, that, like, Daredevil has had a really hard time taking down Fisk for certainly this entire season and multiple seasons, like, maybe this is something Matt Murdock can do. Maybe there is a way where can

[Joanna Robinson]

we trace the assassination attempt on Governor Lily Taylor, thus justifying casting Lily Taylor in this. Like, let's say Governor Lily Taylor takes the stand.

[Rob Mahoney]

Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, turns the tables.

[Rob Mahoney]

You don't want your honor recalling Bullseye to the stand.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I would not be surprised, and I'd be very bummed, but I would not be surprised if Dex isn't in the finale. Like, he gave a walk away. Like, one good deed and a walk away towards the camera.

[Rob Mahoney]

I kind of think that was it

[Joanna Robinson]

in a way where, like, he might not show up in the finale.

[Rob Mahoney]

I fully expect him not to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or he's there in a coda being recruited for something. You know, something like that.

[Rob Mahoney]

But, like, have you heard of the Avengers Initiative?

[Joanna Robinson]

But, yeah, but the way that they've seated these judges from the beginning of the season, like, I do think there needs to be something conclusive that happens in the court. The question all season of Matt Murdock like when Wilson Fisk said to him in the previous episode, are you gonna kill me? You will not. Are you gonna arrest me? You cannot.

[Rob Mahoney]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, you can't get me the legal way and you can't get me your vigilante way. I'm impervious both ways. Right. But is there a way in which the law can come back around this system that's been so corrupt since Wilson Fisk took over? The courts are corrupt, all the tiers of government are corrupt. But is there a way? The police are certainly corrupt, but is there a way for justice to shine through in some way in a finale courtroom scene? In a way that Matt's faith in the system is supported and he does get Wilson Fisk in some sort of legal way.

[Rob Mahoney]

I could definitely see. And to me, that's the payoff for not just all of those threats earlier in the season, but if you're going to make Matt Murdock the co counselor in this case, like, it has to be for more reasons than just to bait out an attack.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, so instead of a physical fight, we get Wilson Fisk on the stand and lawyer Matt Murdock cross examining him.

[Rob Mahoney]

See, I'm into this and beyond, like

[Joanna Robinson]

a very Perry Mason esque, getting someone to confess on the stand for a case they're not even on trial for.

[Rob Mahoney]

You want me on that wall? Yeah. You need me on that wall of the Freeport?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm very down for it. For one, I love Matt Murdock cross examining. And this episode was a nice subtle reintroduction to that fact. Not in any aggressive way, just like a gentle prodding. I do think his introduction as co counsel, though, this is the one thing Kirsten gets to do. And now she doesn't even get to do it. She's been on the show for two seasons, filing paperwork, being a school marm, basically. And now she doesn't even get to litigate the big case.

[Joanna Robinson]

She had to tell Hochberg, fuck you. Earlier this season.

[Rob Mahoney]

She had to tell him, fuck you. But then she also has this moment with the judge where it's like, there's no jury to appeal to here at counselor. She's like, but is there like the finger guns as she's walking away? Just embarrassing. Like, I want her to be a good or competent or interesting lawyer and they won't even let her be that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay, I'm with you. I need justice for Kiersten, but more broadly, justice for New York.

[Rob Mahoney]

Justice for all of us. Yeah, justice. Here's the thing. Matt Murdock may not need a system to believe in. We do. I would like to see one system work.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's why when Dex killed a bunch of anti vigilante task force. Yeah, I was really into it. All right, anything else you want to say before we go? Do you need Heather Glenn full blown psycho killer in the finale, or are you content to wait for that for season two?

[Rob Mahoney]

I'm kind of satisfied. Like, look, if she wants to fuck or choke or kill whoever she wants to do those things to, I'm on board for it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Now do you want to look at

[Rob Mahoney]

the camera and say that I'm good, We can just quote card it and be on our way? I don't necessarily need that. I think this is what's interesting about this place in the story is like, I feel like a lot of these side characters have had a button of a note on their individual stories where it's like, if we don't see Buck in the finale, he's kind of like off in the wind or just kind of like they can't resume.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, Dex buttoned up. Cherry doesn't even have a story, so who cares? You know, Kirsten will be involved. Finger gun her way out of here.

[Rob Mahoney]

I need one. I need a call back to the finger gun.

[Joanna Robinson]

One more finger gun.

[Rob Mahoney]

Let's just do it, you know, maybe go down the line of judges, you know, what's the harm?

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure. Anything else? I think. I think we really did it.

[Rob Mahoney]

I think we really did.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think we really did it. Mali Rubin, you are fondly missed always. But she'll be back for the finale. Thank you, Rob Mahoney.

[Rob Mahoney]

Thank you, Jill. Thank you for having me on for this show that I do quite enjoy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's great. Rob and I are covering Euphoria, a show we are quite confused by, but also kind of enjoying. Yeah, we'll be doing like. We'll be doing the like kind of live on Sunday night. It's not like live live, but we are watching. We have no more screeners, so we're gonna be watching Euphoria, I think, from this very couch on Sunday nights here in the studio and then recording immediately after.

[Rob Mahoney]

So if you thought our coverage was unhinged to this point. Yeah, just wait to see how punchy they're about to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just wait until you see how like five Diet Cokes in. Rob is on the microphone.

[Rob Mahoney]

I mean, that's my secret, Joe. I'm always five Diet Cokes in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you to Carlos Jiraboga, to our dinner ring with palace, to Jo Me a dinner on Scott Lee, Jacob Cornette and the whole crew here at Sycamore Studios really appreciate you and we'll see you soon. Bye.

[Rob Mahoney]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Joanna Robinson]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] you can't reason with the sun.

[Rob Mahoney]

Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mute.

[Rob Mahoney]

Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin.

[Commercial/Advertisement Voice]

The sun is relentless, but so is our gear.

[Rob Mahoney]

Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.