‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2 Finale

Summary

House of R: ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ Season 2 Finale (May 7, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin deliver their in-depth—and characteristically witty—analysis of Daredevil: Born Again Season 2’s finale episode, “The Southern Cross.” The duo dissects the evolution of the show across two seasons, the strengths and stumbles of the finale, the shifting tone and character dynamics, the continued “Netflix vs Disney+” Daredevil debate, and what’s coming for Season 3. In addition, they celebrate “Friend of the Pod Month,” preview upcoming House of R content, and indulge in their famous banter, inside jokes, and moments of heartfelt nerdery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Season 2 in Review: Overall Impressions

• Season 2: An Improvement
  Both hosts agree Season 2 is a marked improvement over Season 1 in terms of tone and structure, though it still hasn’t recaptured the “magic” of the Netflix era:
  • “I thought the season was significantly better than season one. …But it has not yet given me that Netflix era feeling. …The standard for this show is an earlier version of itself, which is just—hard.” (Mallory, 15:02)
  • The finale is “the season in miniature,” with both “really successful and interesting” moments and some “clunky and choppy” elements.
• Still Room for Growth:
  The show feels tonally more cohesive but is hampered by missing emotional beats, unresolved character moments, and awkward editing.
• Comparisons & Frustrations:
  They highlight the show’s struggle to measure up to both its own Netflix precursor and to Wonder Man, the other Marvel series this year, which they found “fantastic and incredibly assured.” (Joanna, 18:26)

2. The Finale’s Structure: Courtroom Over Combat

• Showdown in the Courtroom
  • Rather than a typical action climax, the finale sets Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk against one another in court, centering Matt as both lawyer and hero.
    • “Isn’t it fun and interesting that the showdown happened in the court of law…?” (Joanna, 29:32)
  • Both found this deeply satisfying and appropriate, given the show’s exploration of justice, systems, and identity.
• Fisk’s Monologues:
  Fisk (Vincent D’Onofrio) “just launch[es] into a monologue as Wilson Fisk. Classic.” (Joanna, 35:12)
• Classic TV Tropes:
  Joanna links Matt’s cross-examination to classic Perry Mason reveals—a “fun television” move, if not realistic legal drama.

3. Matt Murdock’s Identity Reveal

• A Monumental Shift for the MCU
  Matt reveals in court that he is Daredevil—making public one of the MCU’s last secret superhero identities:
  • “Matt’s secret identity inside of the MCU has been one of the only—THE only—secret identities.” (Mallory, 40:55)
  • The move is compared to Tony Stark’s “I am Iron Man,” but Mallory notes this changes the street-level hero game in the MCU.
• Mixed Execution:
  • Both hosts critique the build-up (“I wish they hadn’t felt like they needed to lay the stones for it so much…”) and question the in-universe logic and consequences.
    • “Part of me wishes they hadn’t done this… Northern Star is just too dumb of a plot aspect…to have led to this.” (Mallory, 42:19)

4. Character Dynamics & Standouts

• Matt and Fisk: The Core Relationship
  Their confrontations remain the series’ greatest strength.
  • “Second only to Matt and Dex, [Matt and Fisk are] the most compelling dynamic.” (Joanna, 37:22)
• Defenders Ensemble
  The increased presence of other street-level heroes (Luke Cage, Jessica Jones) is generally welcomed but brings challenges—too often, it feels less like Daredevil’s show and more like The Defenders.
  • “It often does not feel like Matt Murdock’s show. …It really just should fundamentally feel like Matt Murdock’s show.” (Joanna, 17:29)
• Supporting Players:
  • Dex/Bullseye: Continues to be a highlight—“His fight scenes have been the most fun to watch this season.” (Joanna, 45:46)
  • Karen: Mixed response—improvement over previous love interests, but still not a favorite.
  • Heather/“Lady Muse”: Her descent is a standout plotline; both hosts appreciate her arc and performance (“What an upswing!” 68:30).

5. Violence & Morality: Fisk’s Survival

• Moral Quandaries
  The hosts grapple with Matt saving Fisk from vigilante mobs after witnessing Kingpin slaughter citizens.
  • “I struggle so much with Matt’s morality here when we have to watch Fisk…punch in the heads of people and break backs, and then for Matt to fling his body in front of Fisks and say ‘No.’” (Joanna, 57:07)
  • Mallory explores Matt’s conflicting religious and ethical codes: “He’s trying to save their souls. …But Matt Murdock, whiny babysitter, just isn’t as compelling.” (Mallory, 59:15)

6. Political & Cultural Allegories

• Trump Parallels & January 6th Imagery:
  The show’s ambiguity in paralleling Fisk to Trump, and the optics of citizens storming the courthouse, raise concerns:
  • “They’re excited to do a Trump allegory. …But they’re also scared to do it at the same time.” (Joanna, 54:48)
  • “The optics…looked so January 6th to me that I was just, like, really confused about what messaging they’re going for here…” (Joanna, 51:02)
  • Mallory: “It seems clear the intention was to say, let’s do the reverse Jan 6, but… the comp they’re clearly making…is such a messy one.” (Mallory, 52:23)

7. Editing, Pacing, and Storytelling Issues

• Both hosts observe signs of significant re-editing (scenes cut, loose ends with Kirsten and other characters) and lament clunky plotting, especially with the anti-vigilante task force and supporting cast.
  • “There just feels like chunks missing or things re-edited. Less so than the Franken version of season one. But—it’s still, I would say, a sin of this show.” (Joanna, 19:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Moment | |-----------|---------|----------------| | 15:00 | Mallory | “I thought the season was significantly better than season one… but it has not yet given me that Netflix era feeling.” | | 30:08 | Joanna | “I think it was way more satisfying to me than a physical fight would have been. And I think it was a great idea.” | | 35:12 | Joanna | “Never once does a person get on the stand and just launch into a monologue as Wilson Fisk. Classic.” | | 40:55 | Mallory | “Matt’s secret identity inside the MCU has been one of the only—the only—secret identities.” | | 42:19 | Mallory | “My only actual, real, genuine note on [the reveal], though, is just that…I think the Northern Star is just too dumb of a plot aspect for the to have led to this.” | | 45:46 | Joanna | “I think [Bullseye’s] fight scenes have been the most fun to watch this season.” | | 51:02 | Joanna | “The optics…looked so January 6th to me that I was just, like, really confused about what messaging they’re going for here…” | | 54:48 | Joanna | “They’re excited to do a Trump allegory… but they’re also scared to do it at the same time.” | | 57:07 | Joanna | “I struggle so much with Matt’s morality here when we have to watch Fisk… punch in the heads of people and break backs, and then for Matt to fling his body in front of Fisks and say ‘No.’” | | 68:30 | Mallory | “I really agree. Back half of the season for Heather. What an upswing!” | | 77:33 | Joanna | “Mike Coulter, Krysten Ritter, and that’s right, Finn Jones are in season three of Daredevil Born Again. So we’re getting the whole Defenders gang back together.” |

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:50 – Housekeeping, upcoming pod previews (Punisher special, The Dark Knight, etc.)
• 10:00 – Opening gift banter; the House of R apple shield
• 14:49 – Begin Daredevil finale discussion: Season 2 retrospective
• 29:32 – Finale breakdown: Courtroom showdown, Fisk on the stand
• 38:13 – Matt’s public identity reveal: build-up and implications
• 45:46 – Bullseye sequence, fight choreography analyses
• 51:02 – January 6th parallels and show’s political allegory
• 57:07 – Matt’s morality, Fisk’s survival, and ethical conflicts
• 68:30 – Heather’s “Lady Muse” arc
• 70:59 – Finale closing image: Matt’s prison sentence, speculation on movie crossovers
• 77:33 – Season 3 preview: Defenders return, Luke Cage mayoral plot hints, Elektra and The Hand chatter
• 84:06 – How much Fisk in Season 3? Predictions

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Season 3 Speculation & MCU Connections

• Defenders Reunited:
  Mike Coulter, Krysten Ritter, Finn Jones are all confirmed for Season 3. Luke Cage is teased as a “big part” of the coming storyline, likely aligning with his comic book journey to become Mayor of New York City.
• More Elektra & The Hand:
  Hints at Elodie Yung’s return as Elektra. The possible role of the Hand as prison antagonists against Matt.
• Bullseye Special:
  Wilson Bethel is confirmed for Season 3, with both co-hosts rooting for a Bullseye-centric special or even full series.
• Will Matt be in Spidey’s ‘Brand New Day’ film?
  Possibility opened by the ending (Matt in prison), but nothing confirmed.
• Karen Page, BB at the Bulletin, and the supporting cast:
  Discussion about future roles and importance; hints that BB’s news interludes will be dialed back.

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Memorable Banter & Hallmarks

• Signature Humor:
  Jokes about “panting and grunting” in Daredevil fight scenes; the duo’s obsession with “great men and dead wives”; playful ribbing about Sean Fennessey and the infamous Skywalker Family Draft.
• Meta Moments:
  Deciding to wear Lady Muse masks while recording Season 3 breakdowns; “describing a gif on a podcast” as “great podcasting.”
• Nerd Heart:
  Expressions of friendship (“I love you, my darling.”), gift-giving on-air, and warm shoutouts to the production team.

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Conclusion

Joanna and Mallory find Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 an improvement, but still below its full potential, especially compared to its roots and Marvel’s peak TV offerings. The finale’s strengths—Matt and Fisk courtroom drama, Bullseye action, Lady Muse’s transformation—leave them hopeful for Season 3, especially with a Defenders reunion and major comic arcs on the horizon. For all its narrative quirks and cuts, the heart of the show (and of House of R) remains in the complexity of character, the tension between justice and violence, and the joy of passionate fandom.

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Next Week on House of R:

• Punisher special
• The Dark Knight (Nolan revisited)
• Continued Friend of the Pod Month

(Send your Star Wars, Grogu, and wider fandom questions to hobbitsanddragonsmail.com!)

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Best closing line:
“It’s our friendship together. Disagreements and harmony together in one place. If that’s not podcasting, what is?” — Joanna (11:12)

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(For questions or feedback, contact hobbitsanddragonsmail.com.)

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Oh, hello.

[B]

Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, the beautiful, the luminous, the exquisite Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how are you doing?

[A]

Oh, I think we've been under the big top for a while now, Joanna.

[B]

That's a fact. That is a fact. We are here to cover the Daredevil finale, season two finale. Here we are at the end of all things.

[A]

Man, the season blew by. Time is just evaporating. This year is melting away. I don't know what's going on.

[B]

We're just barreling towards the apocalyptic summer that we have in store for ourselves.

[A]

Well, I'm. I'm anxiously waiting a Stock Countdown update 30 days that soon which is terrifying and thrilling all at once.

[B]

Absolutely delightful. We'll get into Daredevil and what we have coming up right after this.

[A]

This episode of Hassavar is presented to you by Target. Call it all trainers. The Pokemon in target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here and the lineup is kind of incredible. A few are sure to be fan

[B]

faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles and even caboodles.

[A]

Which feels perfect because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure and Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit. Spirit.

[B]

The first drop is in store May

[A]

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[B]

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Restrictions apply.

[B]

See [e-mail] predict bonus offer Herms. Okay, we are officially in it. We are in friend of the pod month. If you guys didn't know Sam Witwer was on the pod to talk about the mall finale earlier this week, it was the best.

[A]

He's a legend. It's just so fun to hear him talk about Star Wars Maul a character he has played for so long. But just the wider Star wars world and his like deep knowledge of that and passion for it. It was really a treat. So if you haven't watched Maul Shadowlord yet, watch it. Really fun show. Whether or not you've watched Shadowlord, check out the interview with Sam Witwer. We had a blast.

[B]

It's a great month. You know Mando and Grogu's coming, which we will definitely be covering. But it's a great month to be thinking a lot about the wider world of Star wars. And Sam is such an expert on all things. So I think you will have a lot to learn about his very educated take on Star wars. Even if you haven't watched Shadow Lord.

[A]

I should have asked him if he thinks I should have been able to select C3PO as a Skywalker family member. I think he would have sided with me, as much of the Internet has, despite Sean Fantasy's Iron Fist.

[B]

I don't know that that's the correct read of what the Internet has said about the.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Doesn't mean they think I won the draft.

[B]

No.

[A]

But they think they should have been able to pick C3PO.

[B]

I don't know that that's the take I've seen, but I support.

[A]

Well, your algorithm is probably anti mal. So sense, you know.

[B]

All right, so we've got a lot coming this month. We've got Punisher.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Special next week. Spider Noir is coming up. Mando, Mando and Grogu. As we mentioned, we are planning to check in on Survivor before all things are done this season with some pals. And I think we can announce. I feel confident that this is going to happen. We're doing the Dark Knight next week. That's our Nolan movie we're doing next week. So we've got some really fun friends stopping by next week for a couple things and in the ensuing weeks. And so the Dark Knight.

[A]

I can't wait. It's wild too, because we kicked off the Nolan Revisited project without even realizing we were kicking off the Nolan Revisited project with Batman Begins because of the anniversary. That was a long time ago at this point. I mean, that was like almost a year ago. Which is just wild to think about. Not quite a year, but it's been a minute close. And so getting. Yeah. Heading into these final couple months before the Odyssey, new Odyssey trailer. Boy, that was something. So many memes. A lot great.

[B]

A lot's going on.

[A]

So many memes.

[B]

I do feel, I will say, like, we were kind of joking about this. We've been joking a bit about this Nolan rewatch project, but it really has helped me inform all the conversations I've been having with people about the Odyssey. I've just been talking to friends. I'm like, well, you know, the way he approaches an ingenue. And then like, my friend Katie brought up. Cause, like, so much of the reaction to the Odyssey trailer has been a reaction to Tom Holland saying, my dad, among other things. And so she's like, fighting for a daddy. Great stuff. But she's like, how does Nolan do with plucky young men? And I was like, oh, that's interesting. It's not an archetype. He does a lot, right. You've got, like a couple JGL roles. I would say, sure, Alden Ehrenreich and Oppenheimer. But it's not an archetype that he has.

[A]

No. Much more interested in great men and dead wives. Yeah.

[B]

Great men and dead wives. Story for the ages. As I mentioned, 30 days until the vampire Lestat.

[A]

Thrilling. Can you believe we get a Star wars movie this month? I mean, it's been so long. It's been 2019. I did not have nearly as much gray hair or hip pain when a Star wars movie last hit the big screen. So, you know, will it be good? Who knows? But I'm excited to find out. I can't believe it's finally Mando Grogu time. Just wild, wild. And we're like a month and a half away from House of the Dragon. Sheesh.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Lot. Sheesh.

[B]

Disclosure day. Supergirl story. Lanterns. Yeah, there's a lot going on before we get to all of that. Of course, we are going to be talking about Daredevil. So this is a spoiler warning for all of Daredevil, Daredevil, Netflix, Daredevil comic books, Daredevil, Disney era. We, at the end, we'll have some sort of, like, season three news that we know about. We'll get to that at the end. I don't think anything majorly spoiled spoilery. Just sort of who we know is involved, some questions about who might be involved, et cetera, et cetera, but that is the plan. Anything else you want to say before we go to our opening snapshot?

[A]

I don't think so. Just, you know, follow House of Our pod on. On.

[B]

Great idea.

[A]

Instagram and TikTok, if you haven't yet, follow the pod. You know, you can watch full video episodes of House of Art, which you probably know if you're watching this current episode.

[B]

Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com Inbox is always open.

[A]

Yeah, send us your thoughts on Grogu, on vampires, on aliens. Really, all the genre hits, you know, we are recording.

[B]

So next week we're recording sort of like a Mando and Grogu primer with a pal of the pod in front of the pod. We don't quite know exactly what shape that's going to take. But if you have, like, Star wars questions burning a hole in your pocket, it's a good opportunity to send that to us. You know, we can just take a look at the wider Star wars galaxy. Get that mailbag over Star wars hobbits and dragonsmail.com We've got a pret. Pretty solid expert on to talk about that.

[A]

I'm pretty excited.

[B]

All right.

[A]

It's Grogu.

[B]

It's Grogu. Let's go. Now, can you imagine?

[A]

How would Grogu be on a pod? I mean, that's. You know what it is? Friend of the Pod month. And so I do think we should have Grogu on the movie Breakdown episode

[B]

just to babble and coo.

[A]

Some of those Grogu dolls are pretty lifelike. Like, it's.

[B]

If we can find a way for you to expense, like, an animatronic Grogu that you can then take home and cherish forever, I think we should make it.

[A]

So I'll look into it. Ok.

[B]

Okay, let's go now to our opening snapshot. Okay, so we're talking about episode eight, the Southern Cross, but I have a few other things that I want to get to before we get into the Daredevil at all. First of all, it's Friend of the Pod Month. That's right. But my dearest friend of this pod is you, Mallory Rubin, which is why my algorithm is pro Mallory all the time. I am so Pro Mallory, C3PO is a member of the Skywalker family. Of course, you're right. You've emotionally blackmailed me, and again, it's canon. I have a little gift for you.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love presents. What is it?

[B]

It's this.

[A]

Look at this beautiful, like, presentation.

[B]

I wrapped it. It was. Oh, I think one of my hairs is in the wrapping. And so you can tell that I wrapped it.

[A]

It's in the tape.

[B]

I wrapped it. Great stuff.

[A]

Very authentic.

[B]

I commissioned it. But our wonderful Hannah and our wonderful production design team here at Sycamore Studios got this together for you.

[A]

I'm excited. Okay, let's see. How do I. How do I best open this to preserve?

[B]

I mean, you can just tear into

[A]

it, baby, your hair, which I'll keep so you can clone me nightstand. It's a good way for me to pretend I don't already have a lock of your hair at home.

[B]

Is it just one lock or is it just like a whole.

[A]

I'll never tell.

[B]

I'm constantly shed.

[A]

Never tell. All right, let's see.

[B]

This is for you. But it is also, it's for our set here.

[A]

Some asmr. Isn't this what, like, the influencers do?

[B]

Yeah, but they usually have longer nails when they do it.

[A]

One of the many reasons I'm not an influencer.

[B]

You are. In your own right.

[A]

In my own right. All right, here we go. Oh, my God, look at this.

[B]

It's a shield with a red. Half red apple, half green apple.

[A]

It's gorgeous.

[B]

The House of Our Way.

[A]

Absolutely love. Sensational. And in time for a new Thrones show.

[B]

Yes. Inspired by House Fossoway, of course, on Night of the Seven Kingdoms. But this is our very own shield.

[A]

What a way to have Stefan Fossoway with us always, which has really been the goal.

[B]

It's really the dream.

[A]

Raymond, I feel like, you know, he's with us, he's in our hearts, but, like, how are we gonna properly carry Stefan with us moving forward? This is so awesome. I love it. All right, let's see. I have to say, it's astonishing how much time I spent on Instagram lately. It's, like, very disturbing to me. So I do see a lot of those videos.

[B]

But I'm glad you're up on the Odyssey memes. That makes me happy.

[A]

I know. I mean, makes me happy on Twitter,

[B]

so I'm glad they still get on Twitter. I know. Anymore, your life is bad for it. I bet.

[A]

Can't do it. Don't miss it. Can't do it. Every now and then I'm like this. Professionally irresponsible.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, here we go. Here we go. Ooh, it has a heft to it. To it. Oh, I love it.

[B]

Hand painted for us.

[A]

Oh, my God, this is gorgeous.

[B]

Yeah. So we'll find a place to put it on the set. But that is just.

[A]

Absolutely love it. It's just beautiful. Should we place it right now? Later, I think later. I think later. Oh, my God, I love it. Yeah, Joe, this is the best. Thanks, team.

[B]

Shout out, Hannah. Shout out, Hannah, you legend.

[A]

This is fucking awesome.

[B]

There we go. Friendship. It's our friendship together. Disagreements and harmony together in one place.

[A]

Oh, my God. If that's not podcasting, what is?

[B]

Out of the way.

[A]

What a wonderful, wonderful thing.

[B]

I love you, Beautiful.

[A]

I love you, my darling. I love you. I had an apple this morning. It's like I knew.

[B]

It is like you knew also.

[A]

I saw. I'm not gonna lie, I saw a surprise gift in the dock. Here's the journey. Sent the doc, looked at it. It's beautiful. Laughed, cried. Spent an extra second Thinking, first, a surprise gift.

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

Then I googled, is Michael Gandolfini on Cameo? I did. I googled it.

[B]

Is he on there?

[A]

I don't know. Sadly not. And I think he should be, though I didn't really spend much time interrogating the results.

[B]

But why repeat a gift when I can?

[A]

But it was. I mean, it was such an epic gift. Yeah. I think. I do think Daniel Blake would have, you know.

[B]

Hey, friends of the pod, if you're listening and you have an in with Michael Gandolfini and can get me a video to Mallory, let me know.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Do you want to take a moment to talk about your Daniel Blake grief?

[A]

I think I. Guys.

[B]

Or do you want to save it for when his photo is dynamically inserted into this episode?

[A]

Yeah, we can hit it in context. I'm in mourning. I'm grieving, despondent, and I. I really enjoyed you sharing the story on the pod of my pretty sincere text to you and Arjuna. That was like, why has no one checked in to see if I'm okay?

[B]

Speaking of the pod recorded last week with Rob Mahoney doing his level best to fill in for Malia Rubin, we did do a hyped draft check in, and I just wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to our hyped draft check in that we did last week with Rob. Uh, I think your draft is looking great. Mine, which was already off a cliff, just imploded even more when they announced that Narnia is not coming out until next year. So.

[A]

Tough one.

[B]

So it's a real. It's a real tough draft for me, but I think you're looking pretty good. Depending on how Mando and Grogu plays out this month. I think that might be make or break for your draft this month.

[A]

Yeah. You know, as always, I feel like we live in the moment of the hype while we can. Yeah, no, this isn't.

[B]

I just. I just wanted to celebrate you.

[A]

I think that Rob. You allowing Rob to luxuriate in having ripped project Hail Mary from our.

[B]

I don't think luxuriate is what I allowed him to do.

[A]

Any limbed rocky hands was very big of you. Everybody's.

[B]

I think I allowed him to look like as much of an asshole as he was in doing that. That's what I did. Just leave them enough roof to hang themselves. That's my. That's my vibe.

[A]

I think that I would say right now, I feel like everybody can confidently say they'll end up with two good things for sure. At a minimum, I don't know. Well, and then from there, I think

[B]

my only opportunity is if Werewolf. Werewolf is very good.

[A]

You have disclosure day on Vampire Lestat.

[B]

Disclosure. Vampire Lestat is going to be great.

[A]

It's a lock.

[B]

Disclosure day is a big question mark.

[A]

We're not so sure.

[B]

The way they're not screening it for people. I'm just not sure. I'm not sure at all about it. But werewolf, I believe in you. Until you get pushed to 2027, and then you can.

[A]

You get with Narnia, you just get to draft it again next year. That's always a fun tradition when we get to. Some of us get to repeat our draft picks when things slide. You know, we're heading into, like, a really loaded back half of the year.

[B]

Like I said, I think you and. You and Fennesee are head to head, and I'm rooting for you always.

[A]

Sean has a really. As your dear friend Sean, I. Yeah, he's a good lineup, but, you know, it's a good lineup.

[B]

You did a great job, too. And he's got Allswell, the lucky rabbit that no one gives a shit about. So you have a chance here, and I believe in you.

[A]

He left the door open at the end there.

[B]

I said, and I believe in you. That's what I'm saying. I support you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

All right. It's a Daredevil pod. Let's talk about Daredevil. So I just wanted to ask you, what's your, you know, now that you've seen the entire season.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's your takeaway from season two of Daredevil?

[A]

Born Again.

[B]

How are you feeling about it?

[A]

I thought the season was significantly better than season one.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

I would say it has not yet, like, given me that Netflix era feeling of just something is happening inside of this show that every other superhero show is just gonna, like, hope to be able to sniff, which is what that was. So, you know, the fact that the. The standard for this show is an earlier version of itself is just. Is hard and always has been hard. I think that this season felt a lot more tonally consistent, structurally consistent and assured than season one. It was not a perfect season of tv. I think that the finale in many ways was like the season and the. And the show in miniature, where I think there were things in this finale were really successful and interesting and good. And then, as has been the case, the whole run for Born Again, things that did not work quite as well or felt a little clunky and choppy to me. Either in terms of what we're supposed to be tracking when about the plot, or even just something about. There's a little bit of a half step of the rhythm of this show that feels off to me in terms of just how the characters engage with each other and literally talk, how they are saying their lines. It's just like. It's a little bit. It's like when Matt and Karen or Matt and Jessica were interacting in the prior version of the show. I think you just really had that sense of like, authentically observing a relationship that was actually unfolding. And this show doesn't do that quite as expertly.

[B]

I do think that the area where

[A]

it did it quite well, though, was Matt and Fisk, which is pretty important. I think that the finale centered Matt in his own show again, in a way that necessary at the end of the season. He had sort of, like, receded into the shadows a bit in some ways because of just, like, the nature of the plot. He's in hiding, et cetera. But also because, you know, some of the other side characters were really working, so we were moving other characters to the fore. And that was like, I think the right choice in some ways, but I think we were all, like, missing Matt a little bit. And so getting that at the end feels right and good. As we then springboard into. I'm like, okay, season two better, but still a little tweaking. Season three, can we finally, like, get this where it's supposed to be?

[B]

Hope Spring's eternal, man. Hope Spring's eternal. And I think it's.

[A]

What's your feeling on it?

[B]

Bringing the Defenders more earnestly.

[A]

It always works. It's worked every time. I'm like, so happy Luke Cage is here. I'm just thrilled.

[B]

It's great. That was my. As I was thinking about the season a whole, my main issue with Daredevil Born Again as a whole is it doesn't. It often does not feel like Matt Murdock show. Yeah. And it really just should fundamentally feel like Matt Murdock show. And I was like, why is that? And I think it comes down to those relationships where the absence of Foggy has been a real problem the whole time, and then there isn't anything that's really filling in for that. I would say, and I know I'm biased on this, but I really do genuinely mean this. I think the interplay between Dex and Matt in. In their moments together was as close as we got to someone who was, like, bringing something out of Matt that I thought was really, really interesting.

[A]

You know, I really agree. I think it gave us some of that, like, Frank Castle on Matt feeling, which was like, I think still to me, easily the highlight of season one was watching them interact. And even just the little moments of Frank's. The shadow and specter of Frank this season unlocks that. And you really got it in, like, a supercharged capacity with Matt and Dex. So it was great.

[B]

And I know that you, you know, you and I both are not like the hugest Karen fans, but I do think Karen is an improvement on, like, the Kirsten Cherry, Heather, like, all the people that he had to sort of bounce off in season one. I do think Karen is an improvement over that. And so I agree with you. We're edging closer towards greatness. I think a thing that works against Daredevil because Marvel doesn't have a ton of shows. It's running right now. And the other show we got this year was Wonder man. And Wonder man was fantastic and incredibly assured. It gave us a core relationship that we are so emotionally invested in. I didn't feel like I was missing big chunks of the story. That's part of, you know, we've talked about the Daniel Blake death and how it was re edited. In investigating the finale, I was watching a lot of interviews with the actors in the season talking about, like, massive stunts they trained for that got cut out of the show. You know, there's just like a ton of stuff that they did that got cut out inside of this episode. You know, I'll talk about it out of context here, but, like, when we get the Matt Murdock I am Daredevil reveal, we see Kirsten sort of crying, having this really emotional response to this information, and we never check in on her about it. And so I'm like, was that ever a scene or was it not a scene? Kirsten hasn't been the most successful character, but it's someone who is close to Matt in his life who'll be profoundly impacted by this moment. And we don't have time or space to spend with her. And so there just feels like chunks missing or things re edited. Less so than the Franken version of season one. But it's still, I would say, a sin of this show that perhaps they overshoot or whatever it is and they're really figuring out what they want to do in the edit. And we can feel some of those sort of Swiss cheese holes inside of the show that we're watching.

[A]

Definitely. I think the Kirsten call out is a great one because it feels to me And I say this without, to be clear, having any idea if this is actually true.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it feels like, I think what you've identified as really sharp and smart and it feels like reasonable to speculate in this fashion. It almost feels to me emblematic of the slightly still present identity crisis of the show in terms of the limbo state of assessing what is working and what isn't and then in which cases to move away or move on. Like, Cherry's basically not in the show. He's got a couple minutes of screen time after the heart attack.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So they've made a choice there. They've said people did not respond well to that. We are going to move away from it. We will not literally, like, get rid of the character, but he's basically out of the story.

[B]

But we will kill Vanessa.

[A]

We will kill Vanessa. We will kill Vanessa.

[B]

Daniel Blake.

[A]

I'd say that was an error, but obviously I'm biased. Kirsten. It feels like they're like, okay, we don't want to move on from this. And when you're able to put them together in the courtroom and see like little moments that reignite for us the kind of like early season one. Oh, I'm interested in how these people became so present in each other's lives and chose to open a law firm together. And you know, the moments where Kirsten has been really like, resentful toward Matt for vanishing or keeping secrets. And then the moments where she's like, I, dude, I thought you were fucking dead. Like, I'm just glad you're okay. And obviously there's like an affection there and a friendship there.

[B]

The.

[A]

This felt to me like the tear of like, okay, let's remind everybody she really cares. And also that there's a like clock of the gears of the clock of like, I, oh, okay, something now makes sense to me at last I have an ability to see a complete picture of who this person is and like, stop basically spending all of my time wondering what I'm missing about a person I should know, but that they didn't have the confidence to actually give us that full moment between them, frankly. The fact that we have more time on Powell's face, right, is I think,

[B]

like actually kind of gaulting and I think they're. Yeah, I just think they're making. You know, if you've got this group sort of holed up in the judges chambers for a while as they're squaring off, there is an opportunity.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I saw our friend of the pod, Erik Voss, on his breakdown of the episode was like when Mat changes into his Daredevil outfit. Did Jessica and the governor and Karen and Kirsten all just like turn their backs while he did it? Like, what was going on? You know? So like they're in that room for a while. Is there a moment for Kiersten to have a one on one with Matt

[A]

and be like, yeah, do you need me to help you with your zipper? And also I have some follow up questions on learning that you're Daredevil. Jessica seemed very content to just hit the booze. Classic legend.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, that would have been a. That would have been a nice little moment. Especially because we actually got like, like quite a lot of the character moments in the other room. You know, we have all of this, like, Heather Buck stuff and Hawk Heather. Like, I can't wait to talk about all of that. Fascinating sequence. But there was a moment for that with Kirsten, for sure.

[B]

Okay. More importantly, before we get into like, what, what we're calling our deep dive here, I cannot wait to talk about this. This is something I texted about, like, to you before I found out the answer in. In deep concern for you. Cause you're still reeling from the Daniel Blake of it all.

[A]

I am.

[B]

I was like, is Buck Cashman dead? Because they shoot him. He is in critical condition. And then we get a coda on all these other people and we do not get a Buck coda. And I was like, is this guy in season three? Artie, the actor who plays Buck Cashman, as you and I have recently discovered, is currently on the West End in London in American Psycho, doing his shirtless best on the stage. And I know they're currently shooting. So I was like, is he allowed to be in this play in London? Because he's not even in season three. But this is what he told THR in March when he was giving an interview about the show. I'm going to be filming some of season three of Daredevil, which is the Marvel series I've been doing on and off, and that'll be coming up in spring. So maybe he's not as much in season three or. We don't know. But we're hoping for Heather's sake, I mean, that Buck Cashman. But Buck Cashman lives is the point. Unless he's ghost Buck Cashman.

[A]

That would be fun.

[B]

You know, Heather's the kind of person

[A]

who might sort of just hit a pottery wheel. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Why not choke a ghost?

[A]

Why not choke a ghost? I. I'm not. I'm still really struggling with Daniel. Daniel's death. I think it was the right story decision and actually quite effective and poignant. But I will miss him. If they had also gotten rid of Buck, I would have been pretty despondent, as would Heather. That said, while I'm relieved to know that he's filming scenes and frankly, you know, if he's like in Lady Muse's Blood Paint Lair or just like, choke in, they could probably just do that in a London host anywhere.

[B]

One in the same.

[A]

Aren't they always? I. Buck Cashman was gut shot. Like he. He was. Matt got shot in the leg. Good joke about needing a full knee replacement. We've seen a lot of our characters, including, you know, the parallel imagery of Matt jumping in front of Fisk at the end of season one. And now Buck doing that here. Bullseye firing the shot both times.

[B]

But Matt deciding not to jump in front of Buck Cashman, he's like, no,

[A]

wait, that's where I draw the line. Buck, don't. Guys, no, no.

[B]

Stop. Come back.

[A]

Citizens of New York, don't. I do think that Buck probably should have died. No, I'm not a doctor. I've said it before, I'm not a surgeon, but you don't take the bullet

[B]

in the gut coat.

[A]

The nice expensive suit jacket. That was pretty amusing. Classic Hochberg. Just a great showing from Hocberg.

[B]

It was a great.

[A]

One of the highlights of the season. No surprise, though. On the one hand, I think that we were. We and many Daredevil fans were like, great. The show has, like, remembered it's a legal drama. This is really great. We're in the courtroom for, like, basically the first half of the finale. Awesome. I do have a note for everybody who is partaking in the legal system in New York and interacting with Hawk. So you're a big sports fan. We've chronicled that a lot on the pod. You know about the pitch clock. You freely invoked it without any prompting recently.

[B]

Here's what I learned about the NBA. Now, anyone can challenge a play and then the ref has to, like, talk to the camera. And sometimes they ham it up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they do. Some of them like to really lean in and perform. Interesting that you should say that because I am now about to invoke a challenge thing as well. This year, baseball. Major League Baseball has introduced the ABS Challenge, Automated Ball Strike Challenge. And teams get two. However, if they get them right. So either the. The batter, the catcher or the pitcher with. It's gotta be within seconds of the ball strike call. Tap your head, you get a Challenge the review, and if you know how to strategically use it, you call it with high confidence. If you get the call right, you don't lose it. You get to keep doing two more. So you could have like, if you got 10 right in a game, you keep going. But when you get them wrong, you lose them and then you can't do it anymore. We need to institute the ABS challenge. Cap on Hock with his objections because no one could get through half a sentence without this guy objecting.

[B]

That's good lawyering. And he got most of them sustained,

[A]

but not all of them.

[B]

One was overruled because the judge finally had a change of heart.

[A]

Tap the head.

[B]

No, he's.

[A]

Go to the booth.

[B]

No, no, no. Hochberg was doing a good starting job because Matt and Kirsten were like, what if we just did whatever we wanted?

[A]

Wild, wild initial approach from Matt. He really found his form eventually. But some notes on the tactics early. Great stuff.

[B]

Honestly, I think Hochberg should have objected more to what Matt was doing.

[A]

Just every two and a half words instead of like, sentence and a half, not laying.

[B]

All right, was that our deep dive? No, this is our deep dive. Let's go now to our daredevil deep dive. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas.

[A]

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[B]

Perfect place to start. Battle in the courtroom. So this is Something that we had talked about as a possibility of, like, okay, we already saw a big, physical showdown between Matt and Fisk earlier this season. Yes. Other seasons have ended. Like, season three especially, ended with a big, you know, physical I beat you, like, showdown between Matt and Fisk. So isn't it fun and interesting that the showdown happened in the court of law with Fisk on the stand and Matt is a lawyer. I wanted it. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Was it perfect? No. But I think it was way more satisfying to me than a physical fight would have been. And I think it was a great idea.

[A]

I quite liked it as well. I think it felt very appropriate given their respective positions in society, in the city, the way that they both talk about the city, the way that they talk about their history with each other, that the episode. Especially given the, oh, by the way, Matt Murdock tells everybody he's daredevil aspect of this, which was like, a transition between the duality of these two characters. We're gonna fight inside of the system, and then we're gonna fight with our fists.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the moment of transition is gonna be saying out loud, this is who I am. And that means that both parts of that.

[B]

And are you Kingpin? And you have to admit right now on the stand, Mayor Fisk, that you are also Kingpin.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

And Jessica will be like, watch your back, Kingpin.

[A]

I loved the way she said kingpin.

[B]

Incredible. My favorite moment, though, is before Fisk gets on the sand when Heather. Dr. Heather Gunn is on the stand and Kirsten brings The fact that Dr. Heather Glenn slapped Karen Paige.

[A]

Iconic scene. I cannot believe we thought it was, like, tough that I missed talking about Daniel's death in real time. Missing talking about Heather slapping Karen, which I texted you about. Yeah, many times.

[B]

Great.

[A]

I just wouldn't all time. Absolutely.

[B]

Great. But Kiersten brings it up. Karen pages this, like, huge bruise on the side of her cheekbone. So great. Great shot, Heather Glenn, I guess talk about your Southern Cross that that's not what that is. Anyway. And. And Matt takes a moment to get, like, kind of bitchy with her. It's like, kind of declass to do this to your ex girlfriend who you've, like, left and stuff like that. That being said, he's like, you. You hit my current girlfriend. I'm going to get a little bitchy with you. And he's like, the. Like the way you're hiding behind the Fisk administration. And Heather is, like, upset and hurt by this.

[A]

She is.

[B]

I enjoyed this bitchiness from the Catholic boy Matt Murdock, who's like, no, don't kill this. Like, this is good.

[A]

I thought this was before Matt really recovered. And, you know, we've spent a couple weeks, like, what's Matt's plan? We think we know what Matt might be doing here. How's this all gonna play out? In that moment, I was like, boy, Matt, we always love when the heart breaks through the constraint. Whether that's the suit that he's wearing it to the courtroom, the suit to go fight as a vigilante in the city. This was a real. Like. I'm like, matt, you have an actual pretty important job to do here. Like, stay focused. And he's like, no, you hit my girlfriend. Whoa.

[B]

No.

[A]

Does Matt remember what the script is? But then he recovered with a quickness earlier when Jess was barking to repair his leg. And he was like, very calmly and casually, like, I don't think that Fisk is gonna kill Heather. You know, until. And I just said it like it was, I don't know, kind of a gamble. I don't think I'll kill Heather or kill Karen's. Like, what if he had? So that was all pretty wild. I gotta say this about Heather and the book reading. If I. You're. You're an author. You're a bestselling New York Times bestselling author. Sure. So you've been in this position. You've been on the book tour, you've been on the circuit. You've. You've read passages, you've read excerpts. People are quoting and reciting your beautiful prose constantly. They are. Should I ever pen a tome one day, I just want the excerpt that I'm asked to share in the court of law or otherwise to be more impressive than this.

[B]

This is the one line. We've already heard this line from her book. It's like, I feel like this is the fifth time we've heard it trotted out. And I think the people who make the show are quite proud of that line, and they're proud of the payoff that they have with Heather at the end when. When she sees her own face in the mirror, all of that sort of thing.

[A]

I did it.

[B]

I'm not as impressed by it, but they like it. So it was gonna go in here. I have watched a lot of Perry Mason in my day.

[A]

Okay. I've watched none of it.

[B]

I'm not, like, a Law and Order fan or whatever, but I've watched a lot of Perry Mason. What Matt does here is a classic Perry Mason movie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which Is. And maybe they do it in Law and Order too. But you put your client is being tried for something, you suspect they didn't do it. You and your investigators find out who actually did it, and you get them on the stand and you make them confess. Now, is this like. Yeah, very. A Few Good Men inspired. Yes. But let me just tell you that Perry Mason did it 22 episodes a year for, like, years before they did A Few Good Men. But this sort of, like, put someone on the stand to force a confession out of them and get them to lose control and just sort of, like, bellow out something. Or sometimes they are in the. You know, in the audience, and they stand up and they're like, that's not how it happened. And you're like, how did you. Because you were the murderer. It's not how court cases are done, but it is how fun television is done. And so the very Perry Mason A Few Good Men approach here. That being said, in all my years of watching, like, every rerun of Perry Mason growing up, never once does a person get on the stand and just launch into a monologue as Wilson Fisk. Classic.

[A]

Classic.

[B]

Just pretty. I mean, he's. He's making Matt's case, which is that this courtroom is a farce. If the mayor can get up here and just sort of, like, start monologuing without anyone asking him a single question, this is just his kangaroo court. It's not the real halls of justice. Yeah. Um, but I just thought that was really funny. I was like, okay, Fisk is just.

[A]

And.

[B]

And as I said earlier this week on the mall episode, do I like monologues and finales? I do. So I did enjoy it, but I laughed a lot because I was like, this is ridiculous.

[A]

It was classic. I found this very entertaining as well. Also, Matt will call him out on it, but, like, that is his second speech. When Matt calls, he just sits down and starts speechifying. By the time Matt gets around to, like, I should probably point this out, he's on speech number two. No man stand as dull as this courthouse institutions. It was so funny.

[B]

That's why I am pushing back on your Hochberg. Too many objections. I'm like, matt, get in objections. Kirsten, stand up. Object now.

[A]

Hochberg. Just like Fisk, making an absolute mockery of the court. I loved this because Matt and Fisk, in their long history together, both think not only. Not only are they, like, working toward a goal or a. Toward executing some sense of, like, in Fisk's case, certainty. Right. He is assured in his vision and believes that he is right. Very dangerous. Matt. Often the opposite. Consumed, riddled with doubt. And then he's like, but I have to find a way to push for the thing that we as a society need. So there's like a parallelism, but like a con, a contrast there. The fact that they both think they know each other really well, though, is the most interesting part. The dark mirrors and then the fact that they think because of those mirrors that they know each other is always one of the most interesting things to watch. I love when we get different versions of that. So, like, one of my favor in season one was the diner sit down scene when they're just at a table with each other talking about the things that they know to be true about the person a foot away. Then to do it on stage, like to make it feed out where all

[B]

the cameras are on.

[A]

Where all the cameras are on and where, you know, you're going to be able to lure someone, you know, they know that's what you're trying to do.

[B]

He's like, I'll go down this road with you.

[A]

Yeah. But it's like one of you is gonna get it right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was really fun to watch. I agree.

[B]

I really agree.

[A]

I think it's.

[B]

It's so interesting because it's undeniable that Matt and Fisk, second only to Matt and Dex, are the most compelling dynamic on this born again version of the show.

[A]

For sure. Yeah.

[B]

And they have that sort of Alicent and Rhaenyra problem on House of the Dragon, which is like, how do we get these two in a room together? And how often can we do it in a season? And can only do it a couple times because they're the heads of warring factions. So like, what can we. How can we bend the plot? You know, can we make Matt disguise himself as a nun in order to sneak in somewhere to talk to Fisk? I don't know. Maybe they should have done that. But it's great here and I'm glad to see it in the family. I think it was really smart to make this a battle in the courtroom. I have some questions about the larger battle in the courtroom, but the legal battle was quite fun.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

As for the identity reveal, which you've already talked about a little bit. Were you surprised by this at all? It felt like they really. I actually thought he was gonna do it in the previous. I felt like that had to have been his plan when he was like, Karen's like, you're not gonna. I am gonna. You Know. And they, like, didn't say what it was. I was like, he's gonna say he's Daredevil. He's gonna. He's gonna make Fisk say, you're a hero for saving me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Well, how can I be a. Confirm that he was there and then

[A]

allow him to give valid testimony, which is not.

[B]

I don't think you can do that from the lawyer table. But fine. That's fine. You know, objection. Attorney is testifying, et cetera, et cetera. That's not.

[A]

But.

[B]

And then I felt like they really. Even. Even feeling that way, though. I really wish they hadn't, like, felt like they needed to lay the stones for it so much inside of this very episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Unless you think it was worth it for, like, Fisk to be like, are you gonna do it? Do it? I think you're gonna do it. Are you gonna do it? Go ahead and do it. See what it gets you. Like, was that worth the squeeze, the juice, worth the squeeze for you? Or how did you feel?

[A]

I have, like. So I have kind of a mixed feeling on this as a thing that has happened and how it was, like, executed and done. So I agree with you. It felt clear for the last couple weeks that we were heading toward whether they would actually do it, at least toward Matt intending to do.

[B]

This is the plan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is his big idea.

[A]

Yes. To the point where I have to say, talk about, like, being in stitches, watching something like. Like, five to seven cuts to Karen's astonished face as this was unfolding. Like, I don't know if those are memes yet. I've been too focused on the pining for your daddy Odyssey memes, but I hope these are memes. Very funny.

[B]

Quick question. If Tom Holland had just said my father instead of my dad, no one

[A]

would have anything to talk about on the Internet this week.

[B]

My dad.

[A]

My dad.

[B]

I don't mind the American accents, but my dad versus my father is a real odd choice.

[A]

I think it's a stumper. It's a puzzler.

[B]

Yeah. Pattinson saying daddy. Yes. But, like, my dad. My father. Odysseus. Anyway, Pops.

[A]

What if he said pops, Papa Pa. Pa would have been great.

[B]

My papa. Odysseus. Oh, man.

[A]

I. Okay, so there are a couple ways to look at this. There's, like, inside of the MCU and then inside of the long history of, like, superhero storytelling and comics. Right. So there have been moments in the. Where Matt has revealed his identity, including in the courthouse. Right. That all makes sense. It felt plausible that that would Happen at some point. Matt's secret identity inside of the MCU

[B]

has been one of the only.

[A]

The only secret identities. So you have, you know, the kind of, like, original choice of Tony standing on the same.

[B]

I mean, now that Peter Parker has just erased everyone's memory, but.

[A]

Right, so like, street level heroes, Daredevil, obviously we've gone through different versions of, like, and this is always part of a secret identity story. Who learns and when, and that group swells. But in terms of public awareness, mass awareness, yeah. Peter has had various journeys with that. Right. You have Matt, you know, Kamala, Ironheart. It's like a small group of heroes mostly operating inside of, like, their home, their families. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, the original choice at the dawn of the mcu to have Tony get up and say, I am Iron man is informed so much about how the MCU was going to handle this. So, like most of our heroes, their identity has been known in the MCU the whole time.

[B]

And that was part of what was really fun about, like, the Daredevil Netflix era. Feeling like a different. Even though they made allusions to Battle of New York, like, they made it clear that it was happening the same world, but for legal reasons, they could, like, not really cross over at the time. And so it was like, we're doing something different. We've got a superhero with a secret identity. Jessica Jones just looks like Jessica Jones. So, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, you know, this is something we're doing that's very different. So it does, to your point, feel like a monumental sort of shift. It's a big deal.

[A]

So inside of the mcu, I think it makes sense. It also does feel like the end of something even bigger than just the end of something obvious, which is my secret identity. And for Matt, given what it means for Matt Murdock to be like a blind lawyer who is fighting for justice in this different theater, part of me wishes that they hadn't done this. I thought it was a cool moment when they did it, but I'm like, ah, man, this changes things so radically. I. My. My only actual, real, genuine note on it, though, is just that I think the Northern Star is just too dumb of a plot aspect for the to have led to this. Like, it's just not a big enough or well executed enough thing to pat Murdoch saying out loud, I am Daredevil.

[B]

I don't disagree. But I also think if, like, the larger consequence is we wedge Wilson Fisk out of his throne of power, then, like, I suppose it's worth it doing

[A]

it to Beat Fisk makes sense for sure.

[B]

I just have some questions about the reveal itself because, like, he does his maneuver, and I guess everyone's like, okay, that's Daredevil. But that Powell's. You know, Powell's response is like, a blonde, blind lawyer who can fight. But I'm like, why are more people being like, has Matt been faking being blind this whole time? Like, why isn't that. I was expecting more of that response of, like, that guy definitely isn't blind. And Matt would be like, well, you

[A]

see, they had all of those conversations. You know, they all talked about it. It was just. It was at the exact same. Kirsten was like, I'd love to follow up with you about what I just learned. Just none of it made the edit, you know? So do you think this was the right decision for Matt to reveal his identity?

[B]

I think it's interesting. I think. I think to go where they apparently wanted to go, which is Matt Murdock in jail.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

You know, committed for the crimes of Daredevil, which is a, you know, a comic book storyline. It seems like they want to pursue. I think that makes sense. Does it mean he could integrate more easily into the larger MCU if he, like, the other heroes can just sort of like, walk into the Avengers Tower or something like that? Like, that's something to think about. So I don't know what those larger plans are. We can talk about, like, whether or not we think he's in the Spider man movie at all. But, like, that's. I don't think it was perfectly executed. I don't mind that it was done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think a lot of people, like. Like having seen the Internet reaction. A lot of fans seem to have really, really liked it. So it was exciting, him throwing, you know.

[A]

That was great.

[B]

That was great. That was really great.

[A]

That was great. It's like, Hochberg, shut the fuck up.

[B]

Speaking of throwing things.

[A]

Yes, indeed.

[B]

My guy Bullseye, does not miss. Mostly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Still the best part of the episode for me.

[A]

Sorry. It's incredible take. He had, like, two and a half minutes of screen time.

[B]

It was great. Comes in, kills a bunch of guys. He does a guy dressed as Bullseye Opposer.

[A]

That was really funny. Calling him a poser.

[B]

Takes over the sniper rifle. I do have a note for my guy, Dex.

[A]

Yes, I. I should hope so.

[B]

Why did you need to announce yourself to Powell, like, wrong Bullseye, when if you just kept your trap. You're beautiful, redeemable. Mouth shut no. And let everyone walk out because clearly the plan was to kill Fisk.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You could have gotten your shot, but you had to run your mouth. Not only did Powell heard hear you, Matt heard you, you know, with his supersonic hearing. And like, you just blew it, man. I mean, you shot Buck Cashman. And that, that's tough for me because it's my guy versus Mallory's guy and that's really tough.

[A]

Not ideal.

[B]

Not great.

[A]

Not ideal.

[B]

I still think in terms of. I understand that I'm fully in the tank for Dex, but I think in terms of, like, his sequence coming in and just like you see the CCTV in the hallway and you see like the objects meeting, you're like, here it comes. Right? And then it's just like the excitement of the way that these fights are shot to me. And again, I know I'm biased, but to me is more dynamically exciting than some of the weird Jessica Jones, like, jumping maneuvers that we saw in this, you know, all of the, like Fisk punching through the heads of protesters was interesting in its own right. Very Vader esque in the Rogue One hallway sort of moment. But, like, I don't know. I understand that I'm in the tank for decks, but, like, I think his fight scenes have been the most fun to watch this season. And, and that, like. And Matt Murdock fighting has been my favorite thing to watch in the MCU before, like, up to this. And when he shows up in other shows on, like, Echo, like a number of other places, Matt Murdock shows up to, like, twirl and kick. And I'm like, like, yes. And I've just been, like, not feeling that magic inside of his own show this season.

[A]

You didn't like the very dramatic moment where he got to, like, run toward the camera, kind of parkour off the wall and go. That didn't do it for you?

[B]

How many times did you replay it?

[A]

More than once, I'll say. Grunting and groaning. I'm, I'm. If memory serves, the. Not for me, but for the sub dialogue.

[B]

Did he exhale? Did he pant? Was he orgasming when he did it?

[A]

He's panting so consistently that it's hard to, like, isolate and identify a really like, like, seismic specific exhale. I agree with you. I think that, like, so to bring Kingpin into it, as you just did, is. I, I do think that there is something about, I mean, Daredevil's fights across Daredevil comics canon, across the Netflix show. There is an undeniable savagery and violence to a Daredevil fight. For sure. Bullseye and Fisk is at a different degree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Intentionally.

[B]

Bullseye's like, I'll kill everyone.

[A]

I'll kill everyone. And mad. While for sure. Murdering and crippling. Legion says he doesn't want to do

[B]

that, especially not his best friend, Wilson Fisk. Don't lay a finger on him. Gut shot Buck Cashman, but don't you dare lay a finger on Wilson Fisk.

[A]

I just think Buck probably should have bled out and died, but I'm glad he didn't the.

[B]

The way that. Unless he did.

[A]

You have Bullseye.

[B]

Like, you have the.

[A]

Who says no? They're capturing with Bullseye the, like, balletic nature of his movement, the pitching, the motions with the arm, you know. Oh, man. Like the, The.

[B]

The.

[A]

The spin rate. What's the spin rate on that fastball? Like the way that he is twirling his knives and moving. And also just the undeniable violence of. All right, I. First I. I cut your fingers off so that you couldn't reach for that thing. And then I put this through your brain to lock you into the floor just because I could. Right. And then there. That's present with Fisk too. It was obviously harrowing and horrifying to watch him. His way through his citizens, the citizens of New York.

[B]

I'm deeply disturbed. To protect and improve.

[A]

Yeah. And as a way to, like, capture the hypocrisy of Wilson Fisk and the beast waiting to rise within. Very effective in some respects. The fact that Kingpin as a character can just punch you once and your head explodes is like a thing that they need to get right when they show it to us. And they did. We've been talking a lot across our Nolan rewatch as we talk about Matt and Dex, Matt and Punisher, Matt and Fisk, about these, like, measuring stick moments. And like the. The Daredevil fights in this show are just flat out not as good as in the Netflix show. And it's just true. And like, I don't quite know why. I don't know why they can't or shouldn't be as good as in the Netflix show. I do think we've talked about this in other contexts recently. They should then not put them in hallways because it just invites the invitation. Yeah, it just invites the comparison. And it's like, if it's not gonn. But don't put Matt in the famous iconic place where we are thinking about season one, season one and all of these great moments. Or I mean, season one, obviously the most iconic moment. But like, even the stairwell and the roof where he killed all of them with the chains around their necks. All of them. Or, you know, the prison escape sequence. Right. Like, there are just so many moments that were like. This is, like, legendary, the way that this has been filmed and choreographed and the stunts have been executed. These fights have been somewhere between, you know, the opening. If we think back to season one, the like, wait, why did they make Daredevil Spider Man? I think kind of like a mass response to that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We've vast improvement from there, no question. But we're not at the highs of the first series, and that's a shame. It is.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And maybe hope springs eternal in season three. They can get it right.

[A]

That would be great.

[B]

In several prison fights. Question mark.

[A]

I would love that. It was. All of Matt's fights were more convincing, though, than Karen going in, knocking out

[B]

the task, chopping that guy with his

[A]

gun, and then leaving his gun next to him. You gotta take the gun with you.

[B]

It was such a weird moment.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

What was that?

[A]

What was that?

[B]

All right, is this January 6th is my next question. I am really confused by the optics of how they filmed this because I understand that as we discussed before, anyone can wear the mask is like, a really fun idea to see this, like, mob of daredevils. Daredevil is not standing alone against Wilson Fisk. He has an army of other daredevils with him. I liked seeing all the sort of, like, home homemade cosplay, you know, all of that was really cool for Matt to say, oh, hey, this movement has gotten out of hand. Like, I don't want us to be that violent. That's sort of interesting to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The optics, unfortunately, of this group storming this courthouse building and the way it was shot looked so January 6th to me that I was just, like, really confused about what. What messaging they're going for here when like, the January 6th insurrection is one of the most, like, shameful and upsetting chapters in our history of. Of shameful chapters. And I'm rooting for none of the people who stormed the Capitol on that day. And so to film this, like, seemingly on the right side of history crowd in the same way was really an odd choice, I thought. Like, really confusing to me.

[A]

I agree. I think that the idea. It seems clear that the intention was to say, let's do the reverse Jan6.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That the assembled charging the halls of power to take back their city are in the right. But the comp that they're clearly making. Right. No question.

[B]

Right. Is.

[A]

Is such a. A messy one. And especially because, like, the characters are in a couple different ways in the buildup to that acknowledging how perilous this is.

[B]

Right. It's a tinderbox. Like, don't call in the National Guard because there could be a war.

[A]

So you have Fisk basically inviting his. The throngs of his supporters to charge and do this thing.

[B]

Don't. No one shows up. It's just the anti vigilante task force until Powell gets knocked out. And then it's not even them. It's just Fisk.

[A]

This was the larger critique that you have rightly identified is the most important thing. Well, I do think that the, the, the. The Powell. The task force, like, Cole Powell thing was just so weird.

[B]

So weird.

[A]

The.

[B]

The Hector Ayala. Like, Hector wouldn't do that. Oh, but you said he did.

[A]

Like, that was bizarre, really clunky. A good example of how sometimes sequences feel really like off. Just like something is off the mo for to challenge Powell and knock him out and say, like, you know, having witnessed him in the head. Yeah, like that tracked. But the fact that we basically got the task force members in Fisk's chambers there saying, like, you know, Matt and Karen aren't alone. This is going to be really hard. And he's basically like, well, you're free to resign if, like, you're not ready to execute your responsibilities. Because they realized they had given us zero other indicators that anyone else on the task force would have been like, go on in. Right. Like, that's just sloppy storytelling.

[B]

It's very.

[A]

The fact that we have the moment between these two characters who have interacted in the task force and in these fights many times. Okay. But then just saying, let him through and everyone else is like, okay. What has positioned us for everybody else standing there?

[B]

Howell's charisma, that was keeping the whole team in line.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. That was really strange.

[B]

Here's the larger problem with Daredevil board again, which is that they're really excited to do a Trump allegory. Like, they're really excited to do Trump. Obviously. They, you know, they gave Daniel Blake's mom a flag that was the Trump flag, except it said Fisk on it. You know what I mean? Like, that is what they are doing, but they're also scared to do it at the same time. And so it just feels like. It feels like they're scared to go all the way. Like, for Fisk to end the season on his island versus, like, in jail or dead is such A bizarre move that it almost feels like they were scared to take their Trump parallel and do something more aggressive with him, you know, like.

[A]

Yeah, is. There is. So this is something I was gonna ask you. Like, do you think we could read it the opposite way, where it is, like, an intentional critique of the fact that, like, the actual legal system has no ability.

[B]

And we've.

[A]

That we've seen that with Fisk before, but also obvious, obviously, with Trump, that, like, arresting this person is like Nadi or.

[B]

I think that's fair. Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair. I just think there are then steps missing inside of that storytelling.

[A]

No question. Yeah. Yes, I. I agree completely. I think that the fact that this was Sheila putting a cell phone in front of Fisk twice. I mean, like, the AG's on the line, and he says, this is as good as it's gonna get. And Fisk is, like, off. I've got some people to go punch in the face. And then Matt, like, Wilson, take the deal. And the deal is going to allow you to exist in harmony with Vanessa's memory, even though you canonically, like Anakin Skywalker, hate sand. And we got. And then, you know, you think back, and I think at the time, we were, like, that conversation between Vanessa and Fisk was, like, pretty, like, conspicuous about the island. Like, it felt like they were setting this up. Right. So, again, it's just not the most, like, nimble and graceful storytelling in terms of marching us toward an outcome.

[B]

I mean, also, a question is. Is, like, do we put it back in jail? We already did that with Fitz. Do we kill him? We don't want to, because we want to be able to bring d' Onofrio back whenever we need to bring him back, you know? So, like, we'll just, you know, appolise save him over here on the island until we want to bring him back for season four or whatever the case may be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just think it's so. I just struggle so much with Matt's morality here when he's, like, when we. When we have to watch Fisk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Punch in the heads of people and break backs, and then for Matt to fling his body in front of Fisks and say, no. And, like, the idea is we're about, I'm saving the souls of the citizens. I don't want the citizens to have his blood on their hands. But I feel like all of us at home are just sort of like, this guy should not survive.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[B]

This horrible thing that we just watched him do among all the Other horrible things we've watched him do. We literally just saw him punch people to death.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, with.

[A]

With, like, a kind of reckless abandon and a lack of, like, there's no discrimination in what Fisk is doing. Anybody who is in front of him as an impediment just to him literally moving forward. Right. In addition to moving forward in terms of his larger goals for, like, world domination and control of the city. I. I think. I think we feel similarly about this with Matt, because we love. Not just with the Charlie Cox, Matt Murdock on tv, who we've about spoken, you know, like a decade watching and loving now. But Matt Murdock is a character that the conflict in the human heart is the only thing worth writing about, including with Matt Murdock.

[B]

Did you come up with that?

[A]

Yeah. Has anyone ever said it before?

[B]

No, just you.

[A]

You know, it's so consistently interesting to watch him grapple with that internal dissonance. However, you know, and I think even in a moment like this, you can. Like you said, he doesn't want to. He's trying to save their souls. You have the religious aspect of that, certainly the idea of grace, you know, directly invoked in this finale and obviously very present in Matt's consideration of his own. What he deserves and what his soul deserves, but also what other people's deserve. I think that, like, another core aspect of Matt Murdock's experience and, like, what he brings to us as a character is the idea that you have to make decisions for yourself. And so there's a little bit of a, like, Like, I don't know, a vigilante is definitionally doing something on behalf of others, and that makes sense and is okay. But, like, Matt Murdock, whiny babysitter, like, just isn't as compelling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think the idea that he would be consumed by dread, that the people who were on his side, not Fisk's, who wanted to remove Fisk from power and reclaim their city just as Matt does, would be behaving the way that Fisk does, that the rot had gone so deep that the people nominally

[B]

on the side of lightning violence has spilled over into even my supporters, who I consider on the right side of history.

[A]

And, yeah, I understand that. I do. I think that tracks and makes sense that Matt would want to, like, throw himself in front of that bearing its, like, full, noxious, rotten fruit. But it is, I think what you're saying is just kind of, like, impossible to argue against that. Why does Wilson Fist deserve to, like, be on a Nice island sipping fucking pina coladas. You got to. We got to get that Hawaiian shirt back. I mean, it really is like.

[B]

But I, I think that was crazy. I think the show has a Wilson Fisk problem in that Denofrio is so good at Wilson as Wilson Fisk is amazing. And so, like, you know, they tried to have him as almost like a one season character in season one of Daredevil. Right. There's like a full arc arc for, for Kingpin there. And of course, in comic books, like villains and heroes tangle and tangle and tangle together, and you have to keep the Joker alive so that Batman can fight him and stuff like that. Like, I understand that, but, like, they, they just struggle to believably, especially in this sort of like, grounded, street level, alleged reality sort of world that we're living in, and especially inside of a show that is interested in, like, how does the system work? Yeah, they really struggled to figure out how to keep Wilson in play in a way that lets Matt win.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also Wilson can come back again next season and do some more damage.

[A]

Yeah, I, I.

[B]

And they, you know, they tried to, like, you know, like, bring in the hand and bring in, you know, Electra and all that other stuff. And they're like, it's not as magical. It's not as Wilson Fiskin. I agree. But I don't know. I don't know the solution to the problem, but it is a problem they have.

[A]

I think for sure it's on my mind because I'm like, all right. I do feel it's pretty easy for me to identify and say that my favorite aspect of the show in all of its iterations now is Matt and Fisk. That's my favorite thing about it.

[B]

Yeah. And then Dex.

[A]

And then Dex. And then for Dana Blake. And then Dana Blake, RIP Foggy. We miss you. Note that I did not list Karen observed with interest that I did not list Karen. Um, I found myself for the first time ever watching Daredevil on television saying, I hope that Fisk is not a major part of the next season, which is a shock to me. And, like, not because I don't think

[B]

those scenes would be good, but because

[A]

it is just, at a certain point, too much of the same thing. And that is not interesting, it's not fresh, and it's not a way for the character to grow.

[B]

And this is, this is why, I mean, like, you know, we're doing our extended protracted Buffy rewatch, but this is like the genius of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is that we Have a new Big Bad every season. Some are more dynamic than others, but there's always just like a new kind of thing for Buffy to conquer. And that's sort of like the Whedon model that a lot of other shows have followed. But like, you know, Kingpin and Daredevil on the comic book page, you know, like, this is the, you know, the Joker, Batman comp. This is undeniable. And then d' Onofrio was just so sensational, to use a Mallory word.

[A]

It was amazing in this finale. I thought, yeah, it's just so riveting.

[B]

I think that the.

[A]

In terms of Matt's specific decision, again, the seams of the season where just. It's like a little too ham fisted. I think you go back to, like, was it episode six, their fight that we talked about in episode six, and Matt's pitch like, you leave New York? Yeah, I'll leave New York. And so it's like they never position themselves. They were always marching toward Matt saying, the thing that I have told myself I need to do is get you out of New York. That we will never know peace. But this aspect of our lives in relationship to each other, but also in relationship to the city is over for both of us. And that Matt, a character who pushed X off that roof in season one of this show, the thing that he fears most about himself is basically like losing control of the ability to follow through on the outcome that he knows is right. That his instinct and impulse, his own morality, his heart will guide him toward a different decision in the moment of actual action, of action than the thing he's like, this is what I have gone in deciding I will do. So, like, it's weird because I think it's like, all tracks to me on some mechanical level, but it's impossible. It's impossible to not say, like, wait, Matt, why is this the thing that you think is right?

[B]

And also like, that there was no one in that moment. I mean, we had that earlier Karen, Matt fight about, like, what? Who are we saving? Who are we protecting? Which I thought was like, weirdly done in that moment. But I. It would have not have gone amiss for me to have Karen in that moment, in the mom moment, be like, what are you doing? Why are we still saving him?

[A]

Why she's doing all that shit earlier. It's not to do. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. What has changed inside of her now?

[A]

Did you see season two A Game of Thrones? They just like tore the high Septon apart limb from them. Do it like, that's What Karen should have done. Absolutely.

[B]

And there should have been a number of people saying, like, actual characters to argue the other point of view. All right, we. Let's. Let's wrap it up here. We got BB at the Bulletin. Were you thrilled to see your favorite editor, Mitchell Ellison, again?

[A]

Okay, now I think we agree again that, like, the BB reports have not worked.

[B]

No. Especially her turnaround time on her.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Her, like, clapback video that was edited. How we know about editing video. And we know absurd. That was ready then get your response up that quick.

[A]

Nonsense.

[B]

No.

[A]

Couple things here. One, Daniel Blake. Our beloved Daniel Blake.

[B]

Daddy.

[A]

Well, shot in the head by cgi. You thought that was bad? Dad, hold my beer. My dude got friend zoned in death. This BB video, she's like, for our family. And we see. We see her uncle. Wonderful, beautiful. And then she says, and our friends. And we see Daniel. And it's like. You couldn't say like friends and almost fuck buddies.

[B]

Near love. And our pals. And our buddy. And our bros.

[A]

It was.

[B]

And our buddies.

[A]

It's so savagely brutal to be friend zoned. And death.

[B]

That said, I would never friend zone you in death.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you, darling.

[B]

I'd be like my erotic muse, Mallory Rubin. Rip.

[A]

My erotic lady muse.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I thought BB Having Daniel's photo, like a photo of them just smiling on her desk was so sweet and so nice. I really loved that.

[B]

She is a bit more qualified than Karen Page to be a reporter.

[A]

She's an actual, like. Yes. She's a trained journalist. I think them moving away from these BB Report interstitials is probably a good choice for season three. I think that BB And I. You listen. I was a newspaper journalism major when I started at Syracuse. Shout Out Newhouse. I love. I love holding the newspaper in my hand. I love the news. You love the news. The journalists.

[B]

I've seen Devil Wears Prada too.

[A]

I haven't yet. I can't wait. BB Going to the Bulletin. Not sure it tracks. Not sure it tracks. I hope that Ellison is prepared to mentor her more effectively than he did Karen. We'll find out. We'll find out.

[B]

Something we are very excited about is what's happening for Heather in season three. Lady Muse. Let's go. We already talked about Psycho. Heather Choke. Punching the shit out of Hochberg. Among other things. No orgasm in that moment, sadly.

[A]

Nor for him. Cause he got punched in the throat.

[B]

He got punched in the throat. Throat. And it like, seemed like he was going to die from that punch.

[A]

Maybe it's entirely possible. I mean, he went down sad. What? Obviously he was kind of like, we should get, you know, by the vending. He's like, nowhere. There was one moment earlier this year where he was like, let's like find something.

[B]

And she's like, let me get the vodka.

[A]

Yeah, but that was like, I don't know. This still took me by surprise a little bit. Not that he would be like creepy and misread the room, but we're under

[B]

siege and a man is bleeding out.

[A]

Not the moment. Not the moment to go like, rub the cheek and tuck the hair behind the ear. Years. God.

[B]

She's like, don't touch me. It was great. I'm really excited. I mean, so, yeah, her whole Heather hallucinates muse turns into Heather Hallucinates herself. I'm gonna read this passage from her book. Even though you hate it. The vigilantes mask does not hide his public face. In fact, it reveals his private face. The real mask is the one he wears in his public life. The dutiful boyfriend, the responsible boss, the loyal son, the boring love interest, Heather Glenn. That's her mask. And her real true self is the choking, orgasming, blood painting. Good for her potential wig wearing lady muse.

[A]

I like this.

[B]

I really agree.

[A]

Back half of the season for Heather. What an upswing.

[B]

Just actually kind of all season. Like, good stuff from her.

[A]

Really great. It's been very interesting and entertaining to watch. Performance has been good. I think the idea of taking a character who was so inclined toward, I mean, and this makes sense because of her profession, but also the idea of like being out on the book tour telling everybody and in private telling Matt, like, I feel sure I know how people's minds work and what it means to make these choices. To then be in this situation because of her own personal traumatic experience is fascinating. You know, what level of like self awareness and personal clarity will she have as she becomes lady Muse versus a complete detachment from like being able to identify the way that she has moved into. Not like even hypocrisy, but just into a different relationship to these ideas because of her own experience.

[B]

Trauma bond. Trauma response.

[A]

Trauma bond.

[B]

If we thought it was fun to watch Matt be slightly bishy to her in a courtroom.

[A]

Oh my God, they're gonna.

[B]

Matt Murdock having to kill, but maybe not kill, but maybe kill his ex girlfriend who's now a mass murderer and maybe his fucking ghost, Buck Cashman.

[A]

Good stuff, Good stuff.

[B]

Sign me up for season three.

[A]

I'm in Again. We had to get the passage just so we could be like, whoa, what's the private face? What's the public face? Before Heather tells herself and us, looking into the mirror what her actual public and private faces is. We get it. It's not the most elegant poetry, but I like where she wound up.

[B]

Matt behind bars.

[A]

Great stuff.

[B]

Did you, Molly Rubin, worry for a moment that Matt might be proposing to Karen right before he wound up in the clink when he got down on one knee?

[A]

So. So I did. I knew a moment of panic and terror would have been a strange moment to propose marriage, but I didn't rule it out for sure. And then he did that, and it was a relief not to see him arrested, but to know that he was not pledging his life in perpetuity to Karen. I think they should just explore other things. That's my personal opinion on it. Not everybody has to agree. I was just like, oh, they're back. This is the place. This is the spot that led to one of the most, some would say infamous, some would say iconic moments in television history, which was. I could smell the curry on your clothes. We talked about it a lot when we were revisiting the original series heading into Born Again season one. So just seeing them back in this space really ported me into a sensory experience. Yeah, in many respects. Just a moment of reflecting on how much time we've spent with the characters.

[B]

Here's one of my favorite moments of the finale. When Matt passes Powell inside of the prison. It immediately transported me to one of my favorite shows of all time, which is Justified. And in season three, Boyd Crowder gets himself locked up in prison so that he can pursue Dickie Bennett, find out where Max Bennett's money's money is. There is this incredible shot when he walks down the hallway, and I did make a gif of it last night. He walks down the hallway in his jumpsuit, and Dickie Bennet, Dewey Crow are just sort of, like, so great to see.

[A]

Dewey.

[B]

Fuck. Oh, no. Boyd Crowder is here. So the look exchange between Matt and Powell as they sort of march down their respective prison walks.

[A]

Great gift work here. You know, Boyd with the. The jumpsuit buttoned all the way up tight, obviously, to the.

[B]

I know, but Dicky with the pop

[A]

top, looking really hip and fashionable. Dewey, of course, always looking completely terrified and out of his depths. Just perfect all around.

[B]

It's an incredible moment in television.

[A]

Great stuff.

[B]

And I couldn't find the gift, so I made it.

[A]

Okay. Love it. Love it. Your commitment to the craft is unrivaled.

[B]

Thank you. Is g Are. Is describing a gift. Good podcasting. Let's find out. Matt's prison sentence gives a perfect excuse for why he might not be in the movie at all. But then again, right? Spider Man. Brand new day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Spidey in the Hand are fighting in a prison. Doesn't look necessarily like the same prison Matt is in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think it opens the door for the possibility that the Hand is here in prison to kill Matt. Who knows? I don't know. And Spidey is there for some reason to protect him. Is Punisher involved in this particular sequence? That'd be great. Who knows? But, like, is prisoner Matt Murdock briefly in Spider Man? Brand new day. What. What's your. What's the. Are you taking the over? The under. How do you feel about it?

[A]

I hope he's in it. I would. It's weird. Frank being there makes it feel both more and less likely to me at the same time. Like, I feel like Frank is kind of there instead of Matt. That's maybe most likely. But if they sprung Matt, maybe we had a prison transfer, and that's why the locale looks a touch different here. But then, like, if Matt is rescued, is he just not in the rest of the story?

[B]

I almost think that Matt is gonna be one of those, like, oh, God, I was about to make reference to a Buffy thing you don't know about.

[A]

But, like, protect me.

[B]

But, like, one of those, like, he's gonna put himself back in jail. You know what I mean? Like, they're gonna protect him from the Hand and be like, do you wanna leave with us? And he's gonna be like, no, I'm serving my sentence because I believe in the system.

[A]

That will be why we between Matt and Karen, where she's like, I'm not leaving. He's like, no. Yeah, I know. It's like, what? Okay. I mean, I get it. You had to do the whole courtroom thing. But, like, what is this conversation? That was so weird. I think. I think this confirms that Matt won't be in the Punisher special. That feels correct.

[B]

That's what I think is true.

[A]

Spidey. I'm. I'm. I'm open. I don't know. I can't decide.

[B]

I think it'd be fun if he's there for, like, a scene.

[A]

It would be great, given that it was so fun when he was in.

[B]

And he was fun. He was there as a lawyer. But we've not seen Spidey and Daredev together, which is always really fun in the comics. So that Would be a fun thing to do.

[A]

Love.

[B]

Is Mr. Charles flying coach? Four questions.

[A]

I don't think so because there's two seats next to each other.

[B]

They're kind of small seats. They looked. They do not look luxurious to me.

[A]

It struck me as an older plane where like either they're in like premium economy comfort plus or like if it is business class, is one of the really old planes where they haven't done those nice new like bucket seats.

[B]

I will give you. It could be comfort plus. That's as. That's as high as I'm willing to.

[A]

Nicer headrest with like the, you know. Yeah, I for sure not coach.

[B]

I don't know. I'm just saying I would expect Mr. Charles to be flying in. In he and million mile Club. I mean, Dex should be in more luxurious accommodations than they're in in that flight. Wilson Bethel is out here stumping for a Bullseye show. What else could he possibly stumped for

[A]

it right fucking here.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Something to think about.

[B]

But he did tell TV Insider, I can confirm that I'm in season three, so that's great.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I would obviously love to be used in some additional Marvel projects down the road on my own Marvel project. That's a dream. I have my fingers crossed for that. And the fan response to the character hopefully will warrant that. I think what would be a slam dunk would be a Bullseye is a special. Just like Punisher's getting a special. He gets an hour long special. And let's see what Dex as the main character in a story does. And if that does, well, sure, put him on the thunderbolts. Like bring him in. You know what I mean? But I would like to see. I mean, I, I believe in Wilson Bethel. I would believe him even more if you were here on the podcast right now. But I believe in him. It's a. It's a shield instead. It's the same.

[A]

I think I believe in him.

[B]

But I would like, I like. Let's not just like, yeah, you know, no, he's.

[A]

Let's give it all to him right now. I like the idea of a special. He's a good character for that. And especially because when Luke shows up and has that scene with Jess and Dany and he's sort of like he found someone else. Indicates that there is a way that Mr. Charles was using Luke and is going to use Bullseye that is very like singularly focused around missions, tasks.

[B]

We're going to Madripoor. Where are we going?

[A]

That would be great. So, yeah, make that the special, whatever he's doing for Mr. Charles, and then because of the Mr. Charles Val. Canonical agency connection put him right in the New Avengers. Bullseye. You guys talked about this last week, but, like, I really think he, like, perfectly with that group of, you know, the idea of, like, the misfits who didn't know how to team up but found each other and also were on a individual and collective redemption quest is, like, that's definitely where he belongs. So that would be great. I'm. I'm all for it.

[B]

Season three.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So they're filming it currently. It's expected to come out March of next year.

[A]

And we know we're covering it because we now know Dex is in it. So that's.

[B]

And Buck Cashman.

[A]

Thank God.

[B]

And Psycho Heather Glenn.

[A]

Will we get a Daniel Blake flashback memory episode? Like, we got a Foggy Memory episode.

[B]

Just a parade of wigs. That would be great.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Mike Coulter, Krysten Ritter, and that's right, Finn Jones are in season three of Daredevil Born Again. So we're getting the whole Defenders gang back together. Iron Fist. Danny Rand is two of the three of them.

[A]

Yeah. I love Luke Cage. I love Jessica Jones. So I'm super, super hyped.

[B]

Alias Investigations is a closing image. Like, I think so. Something we didn't talk about in a sort of, like, season overall. But there has been some, like, I think, rather dodgy reporting on this. So I'm unwilling to sort of, like, give it my whole seal of approval. Journalistic seal of approval. I was a journalist once. But, like, the story that's going around, which I get, I think is dodgily sourced, is that there's been a 50% drop in the audience viewing season two versus season one of Daredevil Born Again. Season three was already greenlit. But, like, is there a limit to how much, you know, there. There is. You know, we've already said that we kind of like the idea that, like, we're gonna get a new season of an MCU show every year.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

This is the first third season of an MCU show. Like, you know, like, so to get a new Daredevil show every March. There's something nice about that. We don't have to sort of, like, remind ourselves what the hell happened last season. I mean, it's still a little bit. But, like, you as intensively as the show and a three seasons, you know, something like that. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, are they going to continue to invest in something with. With diminishing returns, is Finn Jones the Way to boost the numbers. I don't know. But Luke Cage is here. And here's what the showrunners have said. Yeah, Luke Cage is a big part of season three. And and I don't know if they mean that in the same way Jessica Jones was a big part of season two. But let's find out. And the funny thing his return is hiding an Easter egg. If you know these characters histories, you know some of the comic book runs, you'll know what's happening. We tipped our hand for season three incredibly at the end of season two. So that was to comicbookmovie.com so Luke Cage for mayor of New York City. Do you think that's the storyline we're gonna get in season three?

[A]

I would say based on that quote and how closely born again season this season hued to the devil's reign prominent we could just say 100%. That's what they're doing because that storyline goes right into Luke as mayor. So that seems like what that quote is pointing toward what Luke's return is pointing toward what the exodus of Fisk is pointing.

[B]

Tough for Sheila.

[A]

Tough for Sheila though. She said, I'm loyal to the office of the mayor, not to you, fucker. So there you go, one more indicator and like all of the stuff with the governor of like we're getting you out of office and then there will be who you know, these weird little like at the cocktail parties like oh, is your candidacy going to be supported? There have been like little you know, breadcrumbs throughout the season about like who is going to give into that.

[B]

They're like, we know you're really invested in the mayoral New York City mayoral race.

[A]

Yeah. So I think the devil's reign into like into that stretch of Lucas Mayer seems like a lock. And then I you know, some of the devil in cell block D Matt stuff canon that they can pull from it feels like we'll get like a melding as we so often do in the television shows of different comic arcs. But yeah, I think they're just like. It doesn't seem to me like they'll hide for long that Lucas mayor that probably will be like a big part of how they market the season.

[B]

Do you think is that we start the season essentially with Luke Cage as mayor or are we watching like a campaign like a mayoral race?

[A]

Good question. I mean I guess if Matt is in part of it feels like maybe

[B]

a really versus Luke Cage.

[A]

That would be really fun. How long is Matt going to be in prison? I guess is part of the question too. Right. Because on the one, I guess that's. You know what? Now that. Now that we can go back to like the Spidey question, because I like what you said about he could put himself back in prison. So maybe that can be addressed either way. But it does feel like part of the reason to do this at the end of season two is for Matt to be there for at least some stretch of time at the beginning of season three. Does that mean he's there for a really long time or that there's not as much passage of time inside of the fictional universe between seasons, even though it's a year in real life, If Matt is 18, if Matt is imprisoned for like multiple episodes, then Luke being in power and like Jessica and other characters potentially, including Elektra, who we'll get to in a second, being out there fighting on the street.

[B]

Part of that storyline of Matt in prison is like someone taking up the mantle of Daredevil.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fear I have seen among fans is that that is going to be Danny Rand, that Dany will take over as Daredevil.

[A]

Well, let's just do Elektra like we did in the comics. I mean, they both did it. I guess there's kind of more fun. Yeah.

[B]

Elodie Young has been posting videos of herself working out and she's in New York City where they are filming season three. Do we want to see Elektra in season? I love Elodie Young as Elektra. I'm a big fan.

[A]

Let's get them in the boxing ring. Let's get them on a more heists, more party. Like kitchen islands feeding each other cheese from the tip of a knife point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Boy. Electra's return would be a tough beat for Karen, but I don't mind it.

[B]

You really don't?

[A]

I don't mind it.

[B]

Anything else? Season three?

[A]

I don't think so. I mean, I am really excited for more Jessica and more Luke. I'm curious to see. You know, we talked about this when we covered the foggy, like, mid season deployment, but I'm curious to see how they continue. Like, was that like one last hurrah giving us that as like a balm for our aching hearts or will we have room? There are a lot of characters in this show, but they keep.

[B]

They've killed off a bunch.

[A]

Yeah. And they've decided not to care about Cherry and additional group.

[B]

So it's still like, you know, it's a lot.

[A]

I don't want the show to be defenders. I don't think anybody wants the show to be Defenders.

[B]

The show seems to want to be

[A]

Defenders, so it's a frankly baffling choice based on how people reacted to Defenders. The response to Defenders, a show I watched every second of, largely filmed in a building that I used to live directly across from, back in my Hell's Kitchen days. Uh, but, yeah, so I. I don't know. I think bringing Elektra back would be great. The hand. The hand is always welcome in a. In a Daredevil show. And it's fun to know that that's going to be a part of Spidey, even if it's just kind of part of the, like, vignette, you know, thing that we talked about when we broke down the trailer.

[B]

That would be fun. If it's just sort of like a montage and part of the montage is like, Matt's there.

[A]

That would be fun.

[B]

You know what I mean? Honestly, just like a real quick Matt check in.

[A]

Yeah. Acknowledge him. Make Matt Murdock.

[B]

I think the MCU wants that, though, because they're like, hey, you would know why Matt is in prison if you watched our TV show Daredevil. Bored again.

[A]

Yeah, make. Make Matt a pan of Matt in prison or on, like, a prison transfer bus. Just another version of the. The fucking Captain America Broadway show. Posters, billboards that we see everywhere. You know, Does Matt deserve more? Yeah, probably. But, like, definitely would that kind of track also. Yes, I think so. Yeah. I don't know. What's your make? Make your prediction now. Put money down on the line. How much Fisk will we get in season three?

[B]

I think Fisk comes in at the end of season three.

[A]

Okay, so they keep him on his island for, like, six out of eight episodes.

[B]

Yeah, seven and eight, maybe. We see him blurly on a cell phone in episode seven, and then that

[A]

worked well when they did it last episode. They should run that back.

[B]

It was really good. Okay. That has been Daredevil Born Again, a show that we felt mixed on, but had some great times with this season, and we continue to hope for it in the ensuing seasons. We're really excited for Spidey trending up.

[A]

I can't wait for Spidey. Yeah, I can't wait.

[B]

Really, really excited for Spidey. Avengers, you know, does any of this matter for Avengers? We'll find out together. I don't know. We'll see.

[A]

Should we get. Get Karen Page in Secret Wars?

[B]

What do you think holding the countdown clock?

[A]

Oh, that countdown clock still feels like a mistake.

[B]

Thank you to everyone. Who helped us out on the pod today. Thank you again to Hannah for the this new part of our decor. Thank you to Carlos Chiraboga, Arjuna Ringwa Powell, Scott Lee, Jomi Adeneron, Jaqua Cornette. You guys are incredible. Everyone here at Sycamore Studios, thank you. Mallory Rubin.

[A]

Thank you, my darling. Thank you for creating a house crest for us. Well, your skin is really soft today. I mean, it always is, but, like, I feel like a rose petal.

[B]

That was the most lady muse moment one could possibly own for. Will you commit right now to doing season three in the lady museum mask?

[A]

Happily, it would spare me a lot of anxiety, frankly. About like, oh, my God. Over on camera 4K. How horrifying.

[B]

If I wear the thing that I have for the vampire Lestat podcast in every single episode of that, will you wear the Lady Meese mask in every single episode of the Daredevil Born Again season?

[A]

I will do so gladly. We'll have to figure out if, like, the canvas is too thick to, you know, does it impact the audio quality with the mic? Maybe we can put like, a little one of those little, like, fluffy Instagram mics on the.

[B]

On the inside just to tickle the old ivories. Sounds great.

[A]

I'm in.

[B]

All right, thank you to everyone. We will be back next week with. We'll be checking on Punisher.

[A]

That's right. Yes.

[B]

And the Dark Knight.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

With at least one, if not two, friends of the pod is the plan.

[A]

Friend of the Pod month.

[B]

See you then. Bye.

[A]

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