‘Disclosure Day’ Deep Dive

Summary

House of R: ‘Disclosure Day’ Deep Dive

Podcast: House of R | The Ringer
Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson
Episode Date: June 12, 2026
Main Theme: A spoiler-filled, in-depth review and analysis of Steven Spielberg’s new film “Disclosure Day”—its legacy, strengths, weaknesses, connection to Spielberg’s canon, and its place as a modern “aliens on Earth” story.

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Episode Overview

Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson dive into Steven Spielberg’s latest movie, "Disclosure Day," analyzing its themes, performances (especially Emily Blunt’s standout role), its position within Spielberg’s filmography, and how it engages with classic and contemporary ideas about aliens, hope, empathy, and belief. The hosts bring their signature blend of sharp critique, fandom joy, film history knowledge, and playful banter, asking whether Spielberg has delivered a new classic—or a nostalgic patchwork that falls short of its ambitions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Vibes: The Cinema Experience & Initial Reactions

• Jo and Mal start by recounting their shared (and comic) theater experience—Jo clicking ominously in Mal’s ear as a nod to the film’s signature sound until Mal reflexively elbows her.
  • Quote (01:21, Jo to Mal): "I elbowed you so hard."
  • Quote (01:33, Mal): "I deserved it."
• Right away: this is a film that provokes physical, visceral responses—but did it provoke the deeper ones?

2. Setting Expectations: The Spielberg Hype Machine

• Universal heavily promoted "Disclosure Day" as Spielberg’s triumphant return to his blockbuster roots, but the rollout (no early screenings, secrecy) led to speculation: Was there more to the movie than they let on?
  • Quote (15:44, Joanna): "I was wondering, is there something else there…that they wanted to keep a secret from everyone?"
• After seeing the film, Jo says: no, it was just as advertised.
  • Jo’s Verdict (17:11): "We all wanted, because it's been a while, a movie that felt like it could be ranked at the top of Steven Spielberg's filmography… I do not think we got that."

3. Disclosure Day: Film Snapshot and Critical Reception

• Spielberg’s “aliens among us” canon: The movie echoes his earlier classics (E.T., Close Encounters, even War of the Worlds), but Mal and Jo both feel it doesn’t break new ground or match those films’ impact.
• Critical & Box Office Pulse:
  • Rotten Tomatoes: 82% critics, 74% audience.
  • Box Office tracking: lukewarm but not a flop.
  • Mal (14:05): "Did anyone else think there was going to be like, more there there?"

4. Analyzing the Spielberg Legacy

• Jo suggests the high expectations are part of the problem, asking if invoking Spielberg's classics does this film more harm than good.
  • Mal (19:04): “Are they doing themselves a disservice by invoking Close Encounters, invoking E.T.?”
• Both hosts recount their own Spielberg top-10s: Jo loves Last Crusade/JP, Mal shouts out E.T., Raiders, Close Encounters, and more.
• The conversation naturally turns to how Spielberg’s post-9/11 work (Minority Report, War of the Worlds, Lincoln, etc.) took a more cynical, complicated view of humanity and hope.

5. A Movie About Hope—But Is “Hope Core” Outdated?

• The climax of "Disclosure Day" posits a world that unites, sets aside cynicism, and chooses empathy when confronted with proof of alien life.
  • Joanna (24:20): "There’s something really aspirational about…saying, yeah, we can unite, combat fake news and whatever the case may be, and lay down our arms."
• But both hosts agree this feels deeply out of step with 2026’s reality:
  • Jo (25:47): "My absolute cynicism about the state of humanity right now just really banging in my head at the end of this movie, unfortunately."
• Comparison points: Project Hail Mary, The Martian, The Truman Show—stories where the world does unite, asking: Is this even possible now?

6. Spielberg’s “Aliens on Earth” Subgenre—How Does This Fit?

• Earthbound wonder: The hallmark of Spielberg’s best “alien” stories is that they’re not about space, but the terrestrial experience of awe, family, loss, and connection.
• Jo and Mal praise how the film’s rural/Americana settings and certain visuals evoke this, but find it less grounded or emotionally immersive than classics like E.T. or Close Encounters.
  • Mal (37:59): "It’s always about: who are we? Who am I? And what is our role in all of this?"
• Both admit “Disclosure Day” made them revisit Spielberg’s best work more than it made them love the new one.

7. Performances & Character Studies

• Emily Blunt is the clear MVP, with a performance full of wit, comedic timing, gravitas, and emotional openness.
  • Quote (62:03, Mal): "Emily Blunt, just an unbelievable performance sensation. Will she get nominated for an Oscar? She should."
• Wyatt Russell (Jackson): Great chemistry with Blunt.
• Colman Domingo (Hugo): Charisma, but stuck as “guy on the phone,” underwritten.
  • Jo (54:59): "It has to be Hugo Wakefield… who makes the best of what he’s asked to do as ‘guy on the phone’…"
• Josh O’Connor & Eve Hewson: Talented, but hampered by "clunky lines" and a relationship arc that feels underdeveloped.
• Some subplots—especially the religious angle—are called “interesting but not well executed,” and ripe for trimming in service of a leaner film.

8. Script, Structure, and Tone—A Patchwork Quilt of Spielberg

• Jo (30:21): “…a memory patchwork quilt of the entireness of his career. But the quilt itself is not as interesting as any of these individual patches.”
• The movie crams in nods to:
  • UFO paranoia/conspiracy thrillers
  • Journalism & whistleblower narratives
  • Road/chase movie format
  • Religious allegory
  • Spielberg’s own artistic self-reflection (the movie-as-movie, the director-as-messiah…)
• Yet none of these threads feels fully developed, leaving the film feeling less than the sum of its (very familiar) parts.

9. Craft & Filmmaking—Vintage Spielberg in Pacing, Action, and Visual Language

• Praise for:
  • John Williams’ score—emotional, stirring, classic.
  • Signature “Spielberg face”—moments of awe and wonder, dolly-ins.
  • Masterful camera work, clever one-ers (especially in the newsroom).
    • Jo (67:05): "[Sean] was like, I don't even understand how his camera did some of the things that it did…"
• Critique:
  • Visual flatness of the film; reliance on washed-out palettes (bleach-bypass style), CGI animals that feel uncanny rather than awe-inspiring; not enough “pop of wonder.”
  • Mal (71:29): "That...visceral, vibrant wonder...is inside of those experiences [ET, Close Encounters]."

10. Big Ideas & Flaws—Empathy, Belief, and Disclosure

• The movie attempts to thread together big concepts:
  • Empathy as an evolutionary advantage and “superpower”.
  • Who owns the truth, and what happens when it’s revealed (“disclosure”)?
  • The chosen ones/“Force Dyad” trope—echoes of Star Wars.
  • Alien abduction as both miracle and trauma.
  • Faith (religious and secular) challenged by proof of otherworldly life.
• But these are “half-baked;” the film gestures at profundity but “doesn’t move the UFO canon forward.”
• Criticism of the film’s climactic “rush to global unity”: uniformly credulous, hopeful, and inspirational, but out-of-step with modern cynicism and media skepticism.
  • Jo (103:24): “This whole sequence is baffling. Doesn't make sense. Would never work on people this way… We're all…agreeing that this is real and it's going to stop World War III… I’m sorry."
  • Mal (104:52): "There's just simply no way that everybody has the same response to this…"

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Notable Quotes & Moments

Opening/Playfulness

• (01:21) Jo: “I elbowed you so hard.”
• (01:33) Mal: “I deserved it.”

The Spielberg Burden

• (17:11) Joanna: "We all wanted…a movie that felt like it could be ranked at the top of Steven Spielberg's filmography… I do not think we got that."
• (19:04) Mal: "Are they doing themselves a disservice by invoking Close Encounters, invoking E.T.?"

Meta-Reflections

• (30:21) Jo: "...a memory patchwork quilt of the entireness of his career. But the quilt itself is not as interesting as any of these individual patches.”
• (81:10) Mal: “They're going to the movies. The movie's about their life."

Hope & Cynicism

• (24:20) Mal: "...something really aspirational about ...saying, yeah, we can unite, combat fake news and whatever...lay down our arms."
• (25:47) Jo: "My absolute cynicism about the state of humanity right now just really banging in my head at the end of this movie..."

Empathy & Trauma

• (97:16) Mal: "Just opening your heart and mind to another person or being's experience is a better and more worthwhile and more holy perhaps way to live."
• (110:30) Jo: "...we've never been more connected and we've never been more callous, I think..."

Comic Relief

• (62:03) Mal: "Emily Blunt, just an unbelievable performance sensation. Will she get nominated for an Oscar? She should."
• (63:47) Jo: "...I so appreciate the comedy that's here, again, almost entirely carried by Emily Blunt..."
• (98:17) Mal: "[Colin Firth] bite me like that mouthguard, Daddy (is this still a meme?)"

The Ending

• (103:24) Jo: "This whole sequence is baffling. Doesn't make sense. Would never work on people this way..."
• (104:52) Mal: "There's just simply no way that everybody has the same response to this..."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:38–01:40: Opening banter, cinema experience, and the clicking story.
• 10:18–12:33: Critical & audience reaction; opening snapshot.
• 15:44–18:10: Speculation about secrecy in rollout; disappointment in lack of “more there there.”
• 24:20–28:13: Grappling with hope, cynicism, and response to disclosure—modern audiences as “too cynical” for Spielberg’s message.
• 32:07–36:38: Comparing “Disclosure Day” to E.T., Close Encounters, Spielbergian wonder.
• 45:41–48:29: Sci-fi vs. fact for Spielberg, why alien films fascinate us.
• 53:11–55:31: David Koepp’s scripts; critiquing the writing, exposition, thin characters.
• 62:03–67:22: Emily Blunt and Wyatt Russell’s standout duo, comic scenes, “the engine” of the film.
• 71:09–72:05: CGI animals, visual language, and the lack of new magic.
• 81:10–82:13: Spielberg making movies about making movies; meta-movie moments.
• 93:16–96:14: The problematic “religion subplot” and attempts at depth.
• 103:24–105:50: Critique of the “unified reaction” ending; why mass belief falls flat in 2026.
• 110:30–111:25: Reflections on modern empathy, media, and callousness.
• 116:31–117:25: Closing gratitude and comic thanks to their production team.

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Final Thoughts and Tone

• Mal and Jo’s tone is affectionate, incisive, and often wry—there’s deep admiration for Spielberg’s craft, but an unwillingness to let nostalgia or hype cloud their critique.
• The episode balances reverence and disappointment: “Disclosure Day” is “a fun, fine time at the movies,” but ultimately a minor Spielberg, its hopeful vision feeling out of touch in our fractured era.
• Standout elements: Emily Blunt’s multifaceted performance, some vintage Spielberg action and camerawork, the playfulness and meta-layer of the “movie about movies.”
• Core verdict: “Disclosure Day” makes you want to rewatch Close Encounters or E.T.—and remember why Spielberg at his best changed cinema.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

Whether you’re a Spielberg fan, a skeptic, or uninitiated, this episode gives you context, critique, and camaraderie. The hosts bring history, heart, and humor, surfacing every thematic strand and production choice with wit and warmth. Skip the movie? Not quite—but do revisit Spielberg’s classics, and don’t miss Emily Blunt’s performance if you do go.

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Next up: Special “Disclosure” from House of R on Monday, plus “Lestat,” “The Dark Knight Rises,” and the start of “House of the Dragon” coverage — it’s a big summer in nerd culture.

Spoilers: all in, from the jump, for “Disclosure Day,” prior Spielberg films, and a little bit of recent pop culture.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

And welcome to House of R, a ringer verse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. She is no. Joanna Robinson.

[A]

You either just made a bunch of ASMRs People's Day or I'm sure a bunch of people turn the pot off. But before we even start.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you wanna start by telling people

[B]

what you did during.

[A]

When we watched this movie together?

[B]

Yeah. I, you know, we had known that the clicking. The clicking was coming from the trailers. And so when Emily Blunt's character, Margaret. We'll be talking about disclosure day to day. More on that in a second. When she assumed the position in front

[A]

of the pink pizza on the weather report. You know what's happening.

[B]

I knew. I felt in my bones. The clicking is about to

[A]

begin.

[B]

And I turned to you because we were next to each other in the screening. And I leaned close, so close to my ear. And as if you're about to whisper a sweet nothing, lips flush against your ear. I clicked and I clicked for like 15 seconds before you elbowed me so hard blissfully in the chest. I elbowed you so hard.

[A]

And that was just like. Like an unintentional reaction.

[B]

It was like with the force of a dodge shooting through a farmhouse.

[A]

I felt so bad, but I was

[B]

like, I deserved it.

[A]

I could not control my limbs in what they did in that moment.

[B]

Very authentic response in the chest.

[A]

I thought it was a shoulder. I'm so sorry. That's even worse.

[B]

It was like kind of a pectoral clavicle. Yeah. I don't have. We can't use like muscle groups. We just have to use like, I don't really have any muscles. Skeletal. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, one more memorable experience for us at the cinema. So that's great.

[A]

So we're gonna talk about all of that.

[B]

We're gonna talk about all of that. Going to talk about the movie that we're covering today, right after this. This episode of House of R is presented to you by target. For 30 years, Pokemon has shown that adventures are better together. And Target is calling all trainers to the celebration.

[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Okay, Joe. Actually, before we talk about the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have a mystery of our own to tease. Is it about disclosure days next week for us?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Is it about alien life? Is it about UFOs, or is it about something else entirely? We don't typically keep secrets. You know, the thing we do here on the pod is share everything. Parse everything.

[A]

Too much, some would say.

[B]

Mine everything for some, certainly too much. But we have. We have some exciting news. We have a reveal of our own. We can't say what it is today, but we can say what it is on Monday.

[A]

So Monday is disclosure day for us.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Tune into the pod.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Leat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You'll have to tune in for leat to hear this. Heck yeah.

[B]

Check out the social if you're not checking out the Lestat.

[A]

No, but check out the stat. Check out the Lestat, but also the socials. It'll be up on the socials. Here's a little hint.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not aliens. No, but it is. I think a thing we are doing that is the most, like, could not be more possibly exciting for you, Mali Rubin. Personally, uh, I'm. I. I couldn't conceive of something that would be more exciting.

[B]

So, like, drop it is a dream come true.

[A]

Drop your theories. We would. We love theory Corner. Drop your theories about what we are about to disclose to all of you on Monday. It's not aliens.

[B]

No. All of the guesses are probably gonna involve Harrison Ford. It's not about Harrison Ford.

[A]

And we've already met. We already met Harrison Ford this year.

[B]

Achieved that dream already.

[A]

Did you look at the elo? I did.

[B]

Very quickly. All right, so check that out on Monday. We're excited to share more. Then we can't wait. We're really hyped. It's going to be a blast. Programming reminders, Joe. What else are we potting about a dimension? Lestat. You did, but mention it again.

[A]

Lestat. It rules.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[A]

I've previewed that. I've added to my vampire costume for some reason. Listen, this is just something we're doing. Dark Knight Rises.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We have a special pal and a guest who is at our Disclosure Day screening.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who is coming on the pod. I don't want to say who it is, just in case they fall into a hole and it doesn't happen, so hopefully they will.

[B]

Is it Harrison Ford?

[A]

It's not Harrison Ford. He was not at our Disclosure Day screening. And then House the Dragon.

[B]

Whew. Boy. Next week. Sheesh.

[A]

I watched the first episode.

[B]

I haven't watched yet. I can't wait. I'm so excited.

[A]

There's an embargo up. I literally can't say anything about it, but I have seen it.

[B]

And then it's hot D season. I mean, top season, deep dives, all of it. Busy summer ahead.

[A]

We're already here. There are drippy candles in the corner waiting to be wheeled out. So I'm excited.

[B]

Very exciting. I love a. I love a candle. We have some flickering candles here with us all the time, which is nice, but it's always amazing when we walk in for talk to Thrones and the set is like bedecked. It's like walking into the sept. Great stuff.

[A]

Can't you wait for like the sort of flea infested pelts to come out? I'm excited.

[B]

The itchy skin is a really specific Throne Squadding experience. Here's how you can follow along if you're wondering. If you're like, great, you just told me about the next few days. What if I want to know everything else that might ever happen?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'd say follow the pod. Why not follow on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast? You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys on Spotify. Spotify. Incredible. And of course on the Ringoverse YouTube channel, so follow there as well. We also have newish Instagram and TikTok handles houseofarpod on Instagram and TikTok. We've been having a blast. You can see some friends of the Pod, Phase one vampire fangs. And stay tuned for an update there, perhaps. And yes, some friends of the pod. We take some pictures. We have breakouts from the pods. Sometimes there are graphics from drafts or lists. It's just, it's a great experience. We'd recommend everyone follow along. It'll be a robust, robust summer. Summer. Spoiler warning for today. I think obviously the, the main spoiler warning is this movie. Disclosure day. We'll be spoiling from the jump. There's no like pre spoiler section. Right away we'll be talking about what happens in the movie.

[A]

Aliens.

[B]

It's a yes. If there's a very long period of like, what's this movie going to be about? And then they just put all the aliens in the trailers over the last few weeks and that ceased being a mystery. Not that it was ever much of one. I think that we should also issue a spoiler warning more broadly for just the Spielberg canon because part of talking about this movie is considering some of the prior films. I don't really think that's going to be an issue for people. I think people have seen like ET And Close Encounters, but Bridge of Space might get spoiled for you. Well, you can hear the Baltimore the Post. Oh, the Post. We're going down to the ocean, Han to talk about journalism. All right, that's it. Those are the spoiler warnings. Those are the programming reminders. That's the tease about a special announcement. Still to come.

[A]

Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com I should say the. The list that emails have been robust in the inbox. We have not disclosure to a email. So I am curious if the BHAD babies like this movie. We have not heard from any of them.

[B]

So we're recording on a. A Friday morning. But presumably some people saw it on Thursday night. Not as many maybe as run home to email us.

[A]

Weird. But you have the whole weekend to do so I care to know should

[B]

we get to the opening snapshot?

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

Okay. Disclosure day. Directed by an exciting up and coming filmmaker.

[A]

As Sean likes to joke.

[B]

It always makes me laugh when he says that. Great. Sean bid Steven Spielberg. Oh, a real eviata of Miladamlad. Time to bring that back. We've got Rings of Power coming in a few months. We're back in Aviata Vamlad season written by David Kapp.

[A]

This is the Galadriel here. Sorry.

[B]

Oh, I missed that. Is Galadriel here in Hot Sauron who fucks just. What a time. What a time to be a Rings fan. And we're gonna be. We're gonna be back in that world soon.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's excited.

[A]

It's Lord of the Rings fall and.

[B]

It sure is.

[A]

I have a lot of plans.

[B]

It sure is. This movie was also scored by someone else you might have heard of. John Williams. How old is he? He is in his 80s.

[A]

He is quite old.

[B]

Yeah. Doing great.

[A]

Steven Spielberg had to like beg him to do this movie. And guess what? The score of this movie rules.

[B]

Score's great.

[A]

And I don't know if it was just John Williams or John Williams and his merry band of like assistants or whatever, but whoever was in the mix here. Crushed. Sounded great.

[B]

Always a delight to have a John Williams score. And when he and Spielberg worked together for what, 30 sometimes now. Is that right? I think it might be.

[A]

Is it 30 collabs?

[B]

I think it might be. Certainly more than like the high 20s. That's always a treat. This movie is 2 hours and 25 minutes.

[A]

Lengthy.

[B]

Long movie. Long movie. Now we do long podcasts. So we're not here to. We're not here to knock a runtime, but we're observing it. Observing it with interest. Noting Joanna again, it's Friday morning, so we don't have the distance we sometimes have. Though this has become more common for us. I will say the. The Friday pod and maybe it'll just be what we do moving forward. Who the knows? Obviously a lot of that is schedule dependent and screening dependent and everything else we sometimes know. What was the box office yield? We've got like more of the score check ins and stuff just for a barometer. Not that we ever put too much stock in that, but early, however, just a quick kind of temp check. Rotten Tomatoes. Deeply flawed metric.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

82 critic score and 74 on the old popcorn meter for the viewing public. Metacritic. 74. We didn't see a cinema square yet by the time we set to pod.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Box office tracking also just way too early to say. But the indicators are that this is tracking for like 35 million domestic, 65 global. The movie had a $115 million budget.

[A]

Yeah. So what's your assessment of those stats? I would say a lukewarmish, fun find time at the movies sort of. Right reaction.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not a hard negative.

[B]

For sure. For sure.

[A]

Some people really dislike this movie.

[B]

Yes. And some people love this movie.

[A]

And some people love this movie. Though even the people who love this movie I do not think would put it in like their top rankings of a Spielberg movie.

[B]

That would be a. I would be actually fascinated to see what the case was.

[A]

That would be a wild move. But yeah, I think some people really enjoyed themselves and it felt sort of Nostalgic to them. Then some people are like, hey, man, there's many times this plot makes no sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I think that's where you get 74, right?

[B]

Yeah. I was curious after the critic score came out and the reviews started surfacing this week to see whether the audience response was more favorable, less favorable, comparable, because you kind of could see it going either way where people are just so delighted. It's always an event when there's a new Steven Spielberg movie. And it's been like almost half a decade since Fableman. So that's actually a long time between Spielberg films. Right, sure. It's certainly been a long time since he has returned to what is a central focus and through line of his work, which we'll talk about more in a few minutes, the idea of alien life, the idea of visitors, Earth specifically, etc. We'll talk about where Disclosure Day kind of fits into that oeuvre. I am not surpri. Those numbers feel right to me. I think the. Like, let's transition into, like, what we thought of the movie here as our quick opening snapshot before we delve into the deep dive in some of the more particular aspects of the story and what was successful and what worked less. Well, I think there is like, a lot that is pleasurable about seeing sitting in the theater and watching the movie, and a lot, as you noted on the story front, that sparks the old think and face emoji response. And I think the. The one thing I'm most interested to continue to talk to people as more people like just see the film and they're just natural discussions in your life with your friends, your family, et cetera. The thing I'm personally most interested to track and the thing that I am, I think ultimately personally bumping on the most is, is why go back to the. Well, if there's not more, that feels like fresh and new to say that. That surprised me with the movie. Like, one of the first things I said to you guys when we left the screening was, did anyone else think there was going to be like, more there there? Right. And I did have fun at the movie ultimately. And like, I think some of it worked quite well as an action chase, propulsive slurping and clicking in my ear

[A]

and getting contusion on your test.

[B]

They're very memorable. But yeah, I'll share more of my overall thoughts in a second. But give us your snapshot. What did you think of Disclosure Day, your number one draft pick in the house of our hype draft.

[A]

So, yeah, let's talk about that. So this is my number one draft pick. I was really excited by the narrative that the studio itself wanted to build, which is, we are so back. We've never been so back. Here's Spielberg back doing, you know, he made west side Story. He made Fabelman's. He made, you know, Bratty Player One. Like the post. I like the Post. But, like, a lot of his movies in late have not been, like, overwhelmingly well received. You know, I mean, west side Story has its, you know, champions. And also, Ariana DeBose, you deserve that Oscar. But. But this sort of, like, return to form. This, this is, this was the approach from Universal was, we're gonna do a Spielberg retrospective at south by, and Sean's gonna moderate. Steven Spielberg's not only gonna show up on the rewatch list, but like, a bunch of other podcasts. Like, he's doing the podcast. Like, very fun.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

Amazing rewatchables appearance. But what the discussion has been over the last, like, couple months in the lead up has not been like, what is this movie? But the Spielberg sort of legacy. Right? And. And I definitely, like, I definitely bought into that when I put it in my number one hypedraft, I was, like, really excited about it. And then as I've mentioned on the pod, I found it, like, very odd that they were not early screening it for people. I've talked about that just from, like, a marketing point of view. And so I was wondering, like, it was just a puzzle I was trying to solve. I was like, is there something else there?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That they're hiding. That is like an extra special aspect of what this movie is that they wanted to keep a secret from everyone. You know, like, Sean didn't see it until we saw it. You know, like people, you know, inside the studio, toe dippers who usually see it, like, hadn't seen it. And so. And then we saw it. I was like, nope, that was just what we thought the movie was. And so I think instead it was them trying to keep the focus not on what the movie was itself, but just celebrating Spielberg himself. And I think we all wanted that. We all wanted, because it's been a while, a movie that felt like it could be ranked at the top of Steven Spielberg's filmography. Can Steven Spielberg give us something that could crack his top 10 of movies ever here late in his career? You know, and I, I wanted that. We, I think we all wanted that, for sure. I do not think we got that. Oh, I, I would say I had. I had A fun, fine time sitting next to you. We will praise Emily Blunt's performance several times on this podcast. John Williams score hitting a lot of nimble camera work that only Steven Spielberg is capable of. But in general, I would rank this actually pretty low on my Steven Spielberg rankings. And I would say we are not so back. Is not. Is is not what I would like Spielberg in making Fabelmanns, I think, and just sort of like making this movie that was like about him and about his life, was trying to have that moment several years ago and trying to have that moment again. Like, I think he and Universal, which is like his home studio, really want to have this. Like Spielberg a master across his entire filmography. Sort of like when Mad Max Fairy Road came out and we're like, wow, George Miller, you still got it. That's incredible. Then it made Furioso and we're like sometimes, you know, and so I just don't think this achieved that. And maybe that's unfair expectations, but I feel like that's, that's the expectations that were set by the way it was ushered into the world. Do you know?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because obviously it is impossible, even absent that maybe like engine of encouraging everybody to think that way and invite that collective shared moment. And like it is fun to have something to collectively look forward to as movie. Obviously. It's like I actually think something I'm noodling on and I will reassess over time. It's much easier to appreciate the movie in a total vacuum than inside of the legacy of his filmography.

[A]

This is something you say when you're like, when people, when like IP or whatever invoke the larger whatever, they do themselves a disservice. Because I found, you know, this morning I rewatched while I was getting ready, my favorite, one of my favorite Spielberg movies, which is Indiana Jones, the Last Crusade.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I was thinking a lot about the themes of religion and how they apply this movie. And we're going to talk about that. So I was like, I'm going to, you know what? I'm going to put on my. One of my all time favorite movies ever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Steven Spielberg has directed. I know two of my all time favorite movies ever, Last Crusade and Jurassic Park. And you are a huge ET Raider.

[B]

You know, like, yeah, Last Crusade for me as well. Close Encounters.

[A]

Close Encounters, you know, so like Saving Private Ryan.

[B]

Duh, Minority Report.

[A]

I massively respect him. Like massively respect him him. But to your point, are they doing. Is he doing himself and are they doing themselves a disservice by invoking close encounters. Invoking E.T. you know.

[B]

Yeah, I think that the, you know, the top 10 and everybody's top 10 varies a little bit, but obviously there's some consensus around Spielberg's best movies because they are also some of the best and most important and influential movies ever made. So that is just definitionally going to be a tier that is very hard to crack.

[A]

I.

[B]

So I've seen the movie twice. We saw it a few weeks ago with a lot of our ringer pals, media pals, and I had fun watching it. I think the action of the movie, the filmmaking is, like, really gripping. You know, some of the oners, the swinging cameras. There are some. The cast is full of performers that we love, and some of the performances from those actors are just, like, amazingly good. Like, the Emily Blunt performance, as you already noted, is really wonderful and, like, incredibly pleasant to watch and just, like, exciting.

[A]

Emily Blunt is actually delivering what I wanted from Spielberg, which is like, I actually didn't know Emily Blunt still had that in her.

[B]

Yes, there is something unlocked in that performance that is, like, varied and multifaceted and just really delightful and it gives you. Entertaining. Yeah, the spirit of play. Right. And so you're parsing very challenging and interesting and deep ideas about not only our. Our role in our relationships, families, communities, jobs, but in the universe. But you're, like, making us laugh while we're doing it. We're swinging through states in the geography of this, like, deep Americana, moving from the political seat of, like, the Virginia, Maryland, D.C. area, but then still in a very Close Encounters way, rooting in the, like, you know, Missouri, Indiana heartland. That all I thought was, like, very effective. Really good.

[A]

The.

[B]

I have, like, a lot of questions about the alien stuff, and at the end of the day, it's not just an alien movie. It is a conspiracy movie. But I think that it, like, feels not only like it doesn't move the UFO canon forward. And again, some of those are the best movies, not just that Spielberg has ever made, but anyone has ever made. That is how I feel about ET And Close Encounters. Obviously, I should say not how I feel about War of the Worlds, but. But we're kind of just actually, let's transition into the deep dive here, because this was going to be the first thing we talked about there. You want to hit something else and we can come back to the film,

[A]

which is, like, my question. I was looking at his filmography, and I was looking at, like, where I think it shifted.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

And I have said this for years, that I, that I always say that like Catch Me if youf Can, A Minority Report, which came out in the same year are like the two last, like, yeah, for me, great Spielberg movies. I fucking love those movies. Right. And then everything after that, you know, there's things that I can admire Lincoln or Munich or whatever, but like there's like 911 happens and that's what War of the Worlds is a reaction to is 9 11. And so I was wondering, I'm like, did something fundamentally change for Spielberg after 911 that like, you know, changed the kinds of stories he wanted to make or xyz? Or did we fundamentally change as you know, to make it American centric as a country? And I'm like, are we too cynical now? Like the ending of this movie is, is so 20 years ago or more that it's astounding. It feels so old fashioned and weird. And I'm like, wow, are we too cynical for the earnestness of, you know, that we used to respond so well to in a Spielberg movie? Yeah. Or, or is there someone else who's making that kind of earnest, wide eyed wonder sort of storytelling that I couldn't think of anyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com if you have some answers to this. But I was like, I can't think of anyone who's like peddling that kind of wonder. And are we as an audience not able to receive it anymore? I don't know.

[B]

Well, so on the audience front, I think on my second viewing I just saw it with the Gen Pop. The Gen Pop. The public went. I did went with Adam. A Thursday late afternoon, early evening showing at the multiplex. Packed, house packed. And people seemed like they were having a great time. Like a really, really good time.

[A]

That's what Carlos said, our producer. That his screening was like really into it and stuff like that. There is the sort of like la bubble aspect.

[B]

And also that maybe the people who are inclined to go on day one, maybe they're likely to be most disappointed but also most inclined to say, I'm just delighted to be watching a Spielberg movie. Like the guy next to me was, I thought maybe having one of the best two and a half hours of his life. I love that everyone in the theater clapped when the movie ended. Like there was a round of applause before people got up and left their seats. Even when the lights came on to indicate there's nothing coming after the credits, like you don't have to wait, people are sitting there clapping. So I do think that there will be plenty of people who love the movie. And there were things in it that I quite, quite enjoyed. And I'm glad that we have a new Spielberg movie. I'm always glad when we have a new Spielberg movie. The hope core thing, like, I think that there's something really aspirational about the commitment to saying, yeah, we can unite as combat fake news and whatever the

[A]

case may be and lay down our arms. And, you know, it struck me in

[B]

a way that I think we like, are kind of forced to acknowledge maybe our cynicism on this front. But I think a lot of people will feel this way about it. Ultimately, it struck me, I really agree with what you said about the kind of 20 year years ago thing, this movie coming out 20 years ago. I think people meet it very differently. It does not, to me, in a few different ways, feel of the moment and like of 2026, the local news, broadcast news aspect, but the just way the credulity of the world received.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And, you know, I think there's something like, it's not like pure hope core. Right. I mean, obviously, and this is a through line of Spielberg's work. There's the like more often than not in a Spielberg movie. Right. And this is not true in War of the Worlds. But that's not his story. That's an H.G. wells story that he directed an adaptation of. That's not the same thing. It's like he's like, I want to tell the story in Close Encounters. I want to tell the story in E.T. i want to tell the story in Disclosure Day. These are from his mind.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The aliens tend to be the good guys or the friendlies, the misunderstood. And the people are bad. The people are the villains. And so this idea of like, who is holding and keeping secrets, we'll talk about that more with the Noah Scanlan character. Wardax. There are plenty of interrogations of the failings of humanity, but the movie ends in a place of like, we can all rally around the recognition that this is bad and wrong and the treatment of these visitors is bad and wrong in a way that didn't lamentably, didn't strike me as credible.

[A]

I know, especially when an aspect of the story is like the seduction and abduction of children and like, traumatizing them and like, and taking over, like, taking control of them in a way that is just sort of like actually fairly sinister. Like, ET Is not sinister to me at all, but this is fairly sinister. Like, when I watch the footage at the end of this movie, I'M like, these poor visitors. How could they be treated thus by, you know, our, our shady organizations and stuff like that? Obviously, when the, like, you know, they wheel out the sort of like, decrepit old, you know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Alien, you know, I, I want to believe, I want to believe that, that, that, you know, they wish us well. Yeah, but like, the story itself has. Has aspects that, that contradict that. I don't know, to your point about Hope Core, I mean, it. It's that moment in the film where everyone around the world, which is impossible, but like, let's just pretend everyone around the world is both watching this and believing it and is changing something fundamentally in them. And I was thinking about, I, I really like when that happens in the movie. We recently watched the Martian, everyone on, on Earth is cheering for this one man to get in the 90s, like the Truman show or Ed TV. Like these moments where, like, everyone's. Everyone's watching and everyone's rooting for something. We are all united in something. This doesn't exist in this other 2026 movie. But I think, and I think Project Hail Mary has like this Hope Core aspect to it, but it's not asking us to buy into the larger good of the world. But like, what can these two individuals do if they open themselves up to something?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Versus, like my absolute cynicism about the state of humanity right now just like really banging in my head at the end of this movie, unfortunately. Whereas tears streaming down my face, big smile on my face during Project Hail Mary.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

So I don't know. It's interesting and I'll be so curious what the sort of like, enduring legacy of this, of this movie is. If the audience that you saw it with yesterday is the general reaction, if this feels like it endures beyond this opening weekend sort of moment, or if it will just be like a 74 fun find time at the movies that I don't really.

[B]

Yeah, that feels like that latter feels much more. More likely. And I think, like, some of that is because what will the conversation around it be? When will people come to it? What will they find to then, like, recommend it in it? To recommend. And you know, one of the things we talk about this across many of our mov in particular, but also like with an episode of tv, I tend to have an experience where I'm like, I watch something for the first time and I'm. I mean, sometimes I'm like this. I genuinely loved it. Sometimes I'm like, what the fuck was that? Often I'm like, I AM There's a lot to process on first viewing, and I look forward to going back to it a second time to really figure out how I feel about it. That's a luxury that. That we have. As we're prepping for our podcast, I often find myself appreciating something more the more I go back to it. That's not what happened for me here, in part because of what we've already outlined, which is like, so much of my first viewing was really like, what is the. The big insight, the big idea that remains to be discovered in the final act of this film that didn't come right. And so then it's like, okay, I did still. I had a lot of, like, when Colin Firth says, we'll talk later about how hurtful this has all been. Like, I'm cracking up in my se. When Emily Blunt. When Margaret is begging Wyatt Russell Jackson to just run over this cell phone, I'm like, this is just a fucking great time at the movies. You know, there's a lot that is, like, really pleasant to just sit in your seat at the theater and watch, and it feels good to have that experience. But because I knew actually that there was nothing more for the film disclosure day to disclose to me, ultimately then I found myself actually slightly more hung up the second time around on. On the flaws. So I think, like, on balance, I.

[A]

You 74.

[B]

Yeah, I. Again, that feels right to me. Like, I enjoyed the movie and I do really like thinking about it kind of intellectually as a continuation of this core text and aspect of existence that Spielberg is so interested in returning to. That's fascinating to me.

[A]

I think my favorite thing about it, which is what Universal wanted me to do, is how it's made me think about other Spielberg movies and what I loved in them and what he did so well. Like, why was this so much more effective? These various themes and there's so much in here. Like, one of my professors in college, when we were studying Shakespeare, she said, I remember this cause we made fun of it forever. She's like, in his last play. Not that this is not Spielberg's last movie necessarily, but she's like, in his last play, the Tempest, Shakespeare put in everything, including the kitchen sink. And we were just like, what are you talking about? What you want to say is that he put a little piece of all the things that have been interesting to him, storytelling wise, over his playwriting career into the Tempest. Including the kitchen sink was a really weird thing to say because there's no kitchen sink in this play. Anyway, regardless, that's how I felt here. We'll talk. We can get into the deep dive. But the UFOs, the religiosity, the role

[B]

of the filmmaker and the storyteller and

[A]

how we understand the shadowy organizations, the way it's a chase movie, the way it's a journalism movie. Like all this sort of stuff. I'm like, here are, you know, little Patrick Appreciations. When I was talking to our pal Erik Voss outside, we were talking about the train sequence.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I was like, it was kicking Last Crusade for me. And he was like, he was like, with the pianos, it was kicking Fabelmann's for me. He's like, there's the pianos, there's his mom's pianos. And I'm like, yeah, it's just all in there. This is just sort of like a memory Patrick quilt of the entireness of of his career. But the quilt itself is not as interesting as any of these individual or the best of these individual patches, you

[B]

know, I really agree. Let's get to the Deep Dive and linger for just another moment on prior Spielberg masterpieces.

[A]

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[B]

Okay, so Disclosure Day's place in the Spielberg filmography and specifically in the. Aliens have come to Earth. And it's worth. I mean, I think everyone knows this, but worth emphasizing it's always aliens coming to Earth. Right. These are earthbound stories. These are stories about us in our homes, in our living rooms, in our kitchens, in our backyards, or in the farmhouses.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

In our farmhouses, in the cat and dog door, through our kitchens, that Barry is gonna just crawl out of, reckoning with our place in the universe. Right. And that has that. That is something that I'm really, like, enjoying thinking about over time. Decades now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of film like Close Matters came out in 77. Right. ET came out in 82. War of the Worlds, not a movie I particularly enjoy. Came out in 05. Right.

[A]

Did you rewatch it?

[B]

I did. I rewatched all three of those. And, you know, actually I rewatched. I watched some of the physical media boys. Adam has, you know, everything on all of these. On 4K, obviously. And the Close Encounters one had some fascinating, like, bonus features of just Spielberg talking about that movie is, you know, obviously, as you noted, he's been doing the pod circuit and everything. And it is so interesting to hear, like, the way he talks about not just his interest in alien life, and obviously this is something he's thought about since he was a small child.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But also the way he thinks about science fiction. This is really interesting. Like, if you go back to watch these, some of these Close Encounters, I want your personal. Your ranking on these. And so

[A]

Crystal skull on the E.T.

[B]

yeah, on the E.T. crystal skull is also, you could definitely say, like, an alien movie. Right. But that's different. It's an indie movie more than it's an alien movie. I have not seen Firelight, that, like, very early movie, but as I understand it, that is also a alien movie.

[A]

It's not Aliens at the end of AI Even though a lot of people think it is.

[B]

And I was talking about this last night.

[A]

That's not Aliens.

[B]

Yes. What else stands out to you now in hindsight about Close Encounters or ET Two of the best, most important movies ever made. And just in general, what Spielberg has explored in each of those stories, War of the Worlds as well, Crystal Skull, if you prefer.

[A]

Close Encounters is by far away my favorite. I watched it actually a little late in. There's a couple Spielberg classics that I came to a little late in my sort of, like, film studies life. Jaws, actually, I Kind of watched a little later and same, same, actually. And I saw Close Encounters as a re release on the big screen and I was just like, over.

[B]

Oh my God. I've never seen it on the big screen. I'm jealous.

[A]

Girl is playing with. I have tickets.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

No, but let's go. It's playing this summer. It's playing on Father's Day, actually, which I think is really funny. At the 70 millimeter festival. Incredible. Come watch Close Encounters.

[B]

You're out of town though, maybe.

[A]

That's right. That's right. I keep, I keep inviting you to movies when you're out of town. All right. Anyway, we're going to get her to Labyrinth and we're going to get her. I mean, these are the kind of movies that here in LA they just want to constantly replay and rep. So we'll put an alert out for Close Encounters and you and I will go and hold hands and go like, you know, and cry. I love that movie.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

I was just completely overwhelmed by it. And I know ET Is very important to you.

[B]

One of my all time favorites. Yeah.

[A]

So I guess I was curious, I mean, like, in terms of what it wants to say. I think in looking back at all of these Spielberg movies, as I have for the last couple weeks, like this pursuit of who are we? Who am I? Am I Peter Pan? Am I, you know, am I a monster? Or am I someone who can, like help these people during the Holocaust? You know, like, who am I? How often am I staring at my own reflection trying to figure out who I am? And isn't that like the great big question that storytellers should be asking? Who am I? Who are we?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And what is our role in all of this? And as it pertains to aliens

[B]

or

[A]

religion, it's sort of one in the same, in a certain degree for. And it's also like bad dad stuff always for Spielberg.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's God, bad dad, aliens, question mark, bad dad, good dad, you know, childhood, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And so, so that's interesting to me. But I'm curious for you because I've known you long enough. Nearly five years now. Well, longer, but we've worked together for nearly five years now.

[B]

We've known each other intimately and deeply for half a decade and more casually before that.

[A]

And you often talk about ET in the context of divorce, the divorce film sort of oeuvre. But I'm curious, probably. Do you believe in aliens?

[B]

Oh, of course. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Absolutely. Why?

[A]

And do you want, like Even if you don't, like, do you want to believe? Like, what. What is it that's interesting to you to think about that?

[B]

Yeah, I, to me, not a scientist, not an astronaut, not a ufologist, it just has always seemed to me completely improbable and even impossible. And with respect to anybody who feels the other way about it, completely, like, egomaniacal to think that we are the only beings in the universe. And it's exciting. And of course, as a lover of sci fi, books, shows, movies, all of it also daunting and scary. And one of the things I love about the genre of SpaceX. Wish we talked about this a lot with, like, Space Movie Month, and this is obviously like a slice of that. Not every space movie is an alien movie. To think about what an encounter would be like, you know, part of why you've touched on this a little bit already with the Project Hail Mary point, but, like, part of what I really love about ET Part of what I love about Project Hail Mary, part of what, even though the end of this movie in particular, like, doesn't really work for me, I still admire as like, an impulse, I think, and maybe like a commitment to exploring a possibility is the idea that we could have to reckon with how small and infinitesimal we are and that that might unlock a greater connection and sense of purpose and shared belonging and possibility and not just have to spell our immediate doom and destruction. You know, when we talked to Andy

[A]

Weir on this podcast, on this very

[B]

podcast, sitting right there about Project Hail Mary and just his work overall and his thoughts about these kinds of stories overall, he invoked three Body problem and Dark Forest is. I was thinking back to our coverage of season one of that show and us actually, like, not. I. I had not read beyond, not read beyond yet and not really wanting to get into, like, what Dark Forest is, but I think it's like, okay to say this. This idea that Andy Weir set on the Project Hail Mary interview of, like, just the kind of core thesis behind the Three Body trilogy, that the universe is akin to a dark forest and every other life form and race and population is there but hiding from discovery. Because if someone else is out there, they have to kill you before you can kill them. I find that actually fascinating and I'm. I'm really excited to see, like, the next season of that show and to, to, you know, keep reading those stories. I think that is, like, very upsetting to confront, but strikes me as like, a credible thesis. Right. I think the idea that Grace and Rocky could come across each Other out in a quest to save their respective civilizations from certain peril and decide that they would be able to do that more wholly and more successfully together. And also that they would care about saving each other more than anyone else at the end is, like, so lovely and heartening. And I like the genre allows us to explore all of those things.

[A]

What I love about that is that the human impulse, you know, Ryland's impulse is he sees a. A ufo, a different. A different ship, and he's like, ah, I don't like hiding, running. Scary. What is coming out? Is it. Are you throwing a bomb at me? Were you throwing a weapon?

[B]

What do Elliot and ET do the first time they see each other? Scream.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like Rocky's.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Desire for connection and understanding and finding an environment that they can both coexist in and a way to communicate with each other and like all that sort of stuff like that. That is that, yes, totally forges that bond and builds that bridge. But the human impulse is to mistrust. Mistrust and the Dark Forest and all of that. I love thinking about, you know, because there are so many perfect Spielberg movies when people say what their favorites are. Like, I, you know, I was on the big pic for both west side Story and Fableman's where we were like, talking about, like, that was a gajillion years ago, but like, talking about, like,

[B]

you guys did a ranking, right?

[A]

We did a ranking of Spielberg and I had to, like, fight to get Last Crusade towards the top and stuff like that.

[B]

Important work.

[A]

Very important to me.

[B]

And to me as well. I'm glad you stood your ground.

[A]

But, you know, like, for some people, it's Jaws and for some people, and I just like thinking about why for you, Malle Rubin, it's these alien movies, the Close Encounters in ET Specifically. Not that they're the only ones, but those are the ones I hear you talk about a lot. And I just think that that's fun to think about as like, almost like a, you know, a Myers Briggs of

[B]

Spielberg movies for people. It's hard for me. I, like, would probably put Raiders.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's almost impossible to do the top 10. Like, Raiders would probably be second for me, actually before Close Encounters, I think. But the top four for me is definitely Raiders, Last Crusade, Close Encounters in E. And then it's just a really crowded field from there to get to 10 and you're like, damn, can this. Can we extend from 5 to 10? From 10 to 15, and then, you know, you've made your piece with it. Like, I. I also love Jurassic park, and that was a really formative movie for me when I was young, like you. I came to Jaws later, but certainly appreciated, you know, Saving Private Ryan. I remember, like, the first time I heard the air leave the lung. You know, I love Minority Report. Like, it's the. The. I mean, Schindler's List, like, the. The list is obviously really long. ET Is like a seminal movie in my life. I think what you mentioned about divorce stuff and like, that being a genre I really love overall. But, like, I don't know, there was something even. Even bigger than that. I mean, yes, the idea. And obviously, Spielberg, over the years, has talked many times very beautifully and openly about this, like, imaginary friend and why he wanted to tell the story about this imaginary friend who was such a central part of him navigating his own childhood, right. And feeling a feeling of loneliness and the idea that an alien could wind up in your yard and become your friend and that the connection could be literalized in that way, right? Where you're like, life forces were melded. As. You know, my big note on ET has always been Reese's Pieces. Not a fan. Disgusting. Not a fan. But the thing I was actually going to mention earlier about the Close Encounters commentary that I was like, oh, yeah, was just it. And I think that Spielberg has kind of amended this a little bit over time, but basically he's like, I don't really think of it as science fiction because it's fact to me. Like, it is just a.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

It's a fact that. That these other beings. Beings are out there. Really interesting right now. We love to obviously invoke the, you know, magic is like science we just don't understand yet or under C. Clarke idea, obviously. But E.T. you know, the idea that, like, the way that the bedroom, Elliott's room, and the closet connecting the kids rooms in particular became this. It was the most perfect kind of heightened version of like, a fort you could build, like a castle you could build a sand castle you could build. How you could use, like, a clubhouse in your yard or anything like that. The idea that your space could be calm, the center of how your imagination could be given form was just always, like, so incredible, you know, and even like the kids, the. The Mike, you know, Mike's friends who are like dicks to Elliot at the beginning when he wants to get into the campaign and they won't let him go get the pizza, even they at the end. And very now to us, like, you know, stranger things, kids on bikes. You know, obviously the core ambulance fashion. Like. Like, even they are rallying around. And that's. I think, the other thing actually through the lens of Disclosure Day that's interesting to track across the movies is like, the. Because there's some of this Disclosure Day. This is also part of what makes it feel like out of time and I think not a successful way is there's, like, clearly an interest in the, like, 70s paranoid thriller, which is great and is a genre of film. We love the way that that would maybe manifest in modern society, though I think is feels out of time in this movie. But, like, this is also a through line. Right. The jangling keys, the adults in ET Other than obviously mom until the end, until the third act, are never seen. We don't see their faces. We just see the threat of how big they are. They're bigger than Elliot can see. Fuck, you're bigger than ET and then to realize that Peter Coyote's character is not just this jangling key threat, but is like, I don't want him to die either, is a real moment of revelation. Right. It's a version of the growing up. Yeah. And like, what. What. What inform for his character, the way he says, like, I've wanted this. This has been my dream since I was 10 to, like, meet an alien. Right. What will Elliot's version of that be when he's older, et cetera. You know, obviously, for a long time. When the trailers for Disclosure Day and the marketing started to come out, there was in part, I think, because of, you know, the farmhouse, which is not literally the Close Encounters farmhouse, but local looks so much like it that it's

[A]

not like Sean when that. Yeah.

[B]

You know, they. As a Marylander, I was delighted that we got, like, name checks for Silver Springs and psych. So, like, this is not in. This is not the Close Encounters house. That's not in Indiana, even though we do go to Indiana elsewhere in the movie. But, like, there were plenty of people who were like, is this gonna be, like, an actual sequel? Is this gonna be, like, about, like, Barry or other people who, like, had this thing happen to them and then where are they now? And what have they done with that defining experience in their life? That's obviously not the case.

[A]

Not. But it is. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, the adults and, you know, the government, the idea that they're like, let's tell them there was a. Around Devil's Tower, the toxic gas leak. Like, you know, at the end of the day, the group of people who are Amassed at Devil's Tower. Communicate in another, smaller moment of revelation to me was never quite as like. I think in part because I was so much younger when I saw ET Is realizing that Jangle Key man didn't want to kill E.T. but, like, we're communicating with music and sound and light, and the goal is to commune and understand. And when the aliens open the ship and walk out, they're not, like, gunned down. Right. There's also a little bit of. Oh, you thought. And they do lie and they tell people that there's a toxic gas leak that's going to kill them so that they flee and they try to gaslight,

[A]

you know, Roy into, like, gangs, pcp.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That's not vampires.

[B]

Exactly. The version of that in this movie is like Noah Scanlon sitting down suddenly at the end and conceding defeat, which I was befuddled by. Completely terrible. There's no. You just can't say that measures up to the other versions of it.

[A]

Relatable content. Defeated by just being, like, tired.

[B]

Yeah. And I get a snack. Need a nap.

[A]

It's bad storytelling, but it is relatable content to me. It's really stupid. There's, like, some strange, extraordinarily stupid moments in this movie, and that's one of them. But I also. I. This is a chase movie. You mentioned, like, the 70s paranoia thriller. But, like, if you go all the way back to, like, Sugarland Express, I got a great delight in the fact that Wyatt Russell, Goldie Hawn's son, is in this movie.

[B]

And he's. And he's wonderful.

[A]

He's wonderful and stars. And then, like, Emily Blunt is doing this kind of, like, Daffy Goldie Hawn, like Private Benjamin, flibbergy jibbit like, performance. And a real compliment, compliment, compliment. Like, fantastic.

[B]

The.

[A]

The duo that I talked about that I love. Minority Report and catch me if you can. Incredible, iconic chase movies. You know, everybody, like. You know, it's just like. I. I love that.

[B]

I think the pace of the movie is sensational. Well, I.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Until the end.

[A]

I disagree because I think there's, like. It's two and a half hours. Yeah. And there's like an entire subplot, the religious stuff, which I think is interesting but not well executed. And you could easily slice it out and you would have a trim, svelte little movie for sure.

[B]

By the pace of the movie, I don't literally mean the pace of the two and a half hours of storytelling, which we should come back to in a second on the script. Front it feels propulsive because we start in media res with the wrestling match, and it doesn't slow down. We don't have, like, an opportunity to catch our breath. So you're kind of just like leaning in on the edge of your seat because it is such a. It is a train moving down the tracks towards some sort of confrontation and crash and calamity in its own right. And that was effective. I agree with you. The balance and success. And also, it's a movie where we are moving between until they. They unite.

[A]

The dyad and the force.

[B]

The dyad and the Force. That was another great moment, seeing this together and leaning to each other when he goes, zack, Santa, there are two of you. There have always been two of you. We turn to each other like, forrest,

[A]

shut the fuck up.

[B]

We're, like, trying to watch the movie.

[A]

We didn't yell it, but we did whisper it loudly, very passionately.

[B]

Fair.

[A]

Fair enough. Okay, so chase movie. Great. You know, with the John Williams score. Great. Kids, lonely kids, kids in isolation. I wrap my arms around some of Spielberg's supposed failures. Empire of the sun is like, a really important one for me. I love that movie. Or when it gets kind of doofy and daffy, when the bad guys are being dragged around by invisible forces. It's just.

[B]

I thought that was great. It's a hook.

[A]

It's funny. You know what I mean?

[B]

You know what movie I've seen, like, 75 times. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, you know, there's again, some. Some patches on this quilt really work for me. And then, you know, overall, it's a bit threadbare.

[B]

Well, let's talk about one of the people who was tasked with assembling that quilt. David Cap. What did you make of the script of this movie? And also, this is another moment for reflection and retrospection because they have worked together. Spielberg and Cap have worked together on a number of films. Right. Campus, the creditors to them.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

Jurassic park, an important film here at the Ringer and here at House of R. The Lost World. Jurassic park never understood the flow of those words in that title. War of the World's crystal skull, tough. And now disclosure day.

[A]

It's funny because when we're talking about who still has the juice and you look at David Koepp's writing career, he is traded a lot of 1. Steven Spielberg for Steven Soderbergh. Like, he's been working with Steven Soderbergh a lot. He wrote Black Bag, which is actually one of my favorite movies last year. It's the movie I picked on the big pick, like, best movies of the year so far, I picked Black Bag. Like, it's a taut, sexy little spy thriller. It is just, like, perfect. It's lean and it's like. It's lean, mean, and it's perfect. And so I was like, how can David Kep write that? And then also this. I don't understand. I think the script of this is quite flimsy and bad. And I think the visual storytelling, which is what Spielberg is really good. The nimbleness of his camera, which we'll talk about, incredible. John Williams score, incredible. Some of the performance is incredible. I love that it starts in mine. I love that we're in this moment with Josh o'.

[B]

Connor.

[A]

It's great. I'm like, what's going on? What's the thing? Who's Jane? What's happening? I love the introduction. Introduction to Emily Blunt as well. Like, her whole, like, at home, you

[B]

know, like, jabbing around Kansas City loft that they've got there.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Wonderful.

[A]

So, you know, there's. There's things I like, but overall, I think the script is. Is the biggest problem.

[B]

Was there a character, either in terms of the expositional load or just the actual, like, quality of the dialogue who you felt was maybe most poorly served by the script?

[A]

It has to be Hugo Wakefield, played by Colman Domingo, who makes the best,

[B]

as he always does.

[A]

I mean, he's always just. I just finished a season of Euphoria where I was like, colman Domingo. No notes for you, sir. Lots of notes elsewhere, but no notes for you. Never any notes really for Colman Domingo, Honestly, Running man, which I thought was a big disaster. He was fantastic in, you know, so, like, he's kind of untouchable, but like. Like what he is asked to do as guy on the phone for this almost entirety of this movie is incredibly tough. Incredibly tough.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of a very fine point put on it. When Emily Blunt's character, Margaret. We'll talk more about the forced diet and their respective kind of power set shortly. But when Margaret and Daniel arrive at Hugo's secret base, got some questions about how it was secret. That was really weird when. Cause the diving and the using the sonic screwdriver magic wand, the device to dive was actually, I thought, cool and very neat. And I really, really liked the Jane Scanlan scenes in particular. They were really creepy in a good way. But Hugo knows that that's about to happen, so he tells everyone to leave, right? And then two of the disciples come in. And so Scanlan pulls himself out and he's like those guys. And they all get to. I'm like, but you knew the 12 people who didn't show up to work already. You weren't checking their. That does actually just doesn't make sense. That's, like, bizarre as a bit of scripting.

[A]

And it's not even like the most bizarre thing that happens in the story, hardly.

[B]

So when Margaret walks up to them,

[A]

upload the files to the Internet.

[B]

Well, I just.

[A]

That.

[B]

That obviously is just. It's. It doesn't. It just is crazy. It's crazy.

[A]

We love news. We love local news.

[B]

We are two journalists.

[A]

We.

[B]

We love.

[A]

We love that this is a pro news film. Yes. I was like, wow, Steven Silberg is out here fighting for journalism. I love that.

[B]

That's definitely not how it would happen in 26. What you would do.

[A]

No.

[B]

Margaret won't make eye contact with Hugo right away. And she says out loud, in the

[A]

movie, you're the guy who knows everything.

[B]

You're the guy who knows everything. It's like, oh, come on. Come on, guys.

[A]

You just said the thing.

[B]

I actually think, because Josh o' Connor is one of my favorite actors, I think he is just.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Since the crown, he's. I fucking love him.

[A]

Did you see the. The junket interview that he did with. With Eve Houston, who plays Jane, where they were asked, like, sort of another

[B]

one of my favorites, as you know.

[A]

Oh, I know. They were her eyes.

[B]

She's just dynamite.

[A]

When they asked them, like, what conspiracy they would want to get to the bottom of, did you say this?

[B]

What did he say?

[A]

It's not what he said, it's what she said. They were sitting side by side and she goes, princess Diana. And he's like, what do you mean? And she looked at him and she's

[B]

like,

[A]

started dying laughing, like, it was really good.

[B]

She is so, so good in the nick. And I think one of the best parts of Bad Sister, she's just.

[A]

You love her.

[B]

I think she's kind of a common genius, actually. Like, especially in Bad Sisters, what they do with Becca. I really love her. Josh o' Connor is a wonderful performer. I think he's great. He's still really good in the movie, but he also has to carry some clunky lines.

[A]

And I think it's pretty wasteful.

[B]

He and Jane have to interact in a way that two people who are in a relationship and care about each other enough.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To go do this thing together. Neither of them bails on the other. He doesn't say, oh, well, you have like, Jane that's not enough for me to basically show up with this backpack and try to hold onto the device.

[A]

Been taken over.

[B]

Right. He's like, it wasn't you.

[A]

He doesn't abandon. He doesn't, like, part ways.

[B]

I'm gonna let you stay in the next bed.

[A]

I'm gonna let you. I'm gonna tie your hands up.

[B]

Yes. But I will hold the paper and the hand with the hotel name on it, even though I put everything else away.

[A]

And I will not blindfold you. We tied the hands and we didn't close the eyes.

[B]

Yeah. And she is just facing him. It's a good note. Also, like, lean into the kink at that point.

[A]

You know, why not invite Colin Firth into your relationship?

[B]

Oh, my God. I mean, that would be great. They end up kind of. And, you know, it's. They're learning things about each other. That's the COVID is this. They both have their secrets. She was going to become a nun and didn't tell them. He is going to be the whistleblower for the biggest reveal on the history of humanity. Not exactly one to one, but we all have our own versions of those things. Yeah. There's some charm in a sequence like that when he's like, you were going

[A]

to be a nun?

[B]

And she's like, we've had sex. What do you think? Again, I think she's just wonderful. But the way that it, you know, when I got out of prison for my cyber crimes is just like kind of a tough bit of exposition to have to unload in a scene, I

[A]

think relationship, like, okay, so looking at Last Crusade or, like. Or Jurassic park, if you prefer, like, two of the best movies ever made. We anchor this journey inside of relationship journeys.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so for, like, Sam Neill and the kids, it's like, do I. I hate kids. No, actually, do I have a place in this world where I am interested? It is a father child thing in a certain way, for sure. Last Crusade. It's entirely a father.

[B]

You.

[A]

You have this great story that is just hinged entire. Indy's on this mission to find his dad. He only goes through the trials because they shot Sean Connery and he's gotta, like, pour some magical hydrogen peroxide on the wound. Like, all of that is. Is so personal.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Which is just delicious in this, you know, situationally. Like. Like, I could tell that he cared about Jane right away because the plot was like, he's doing everything he can to, like, get her out of this situation. Despite the high stakes of this, you know, McGuffin that he's carrying. Like, that's. That's all. That's all there but like, it. The movie then veers away from his relationship to her to, like, his connection to Emily Blunt's character. And not like, you can't sort of move through things, but in like, Road Movie, if you're thinking about, like, the Bourne Identity or something like that, like, a road movie should be about, like, what are these two people and what are they learning about each other? Like, I would really have liked if it was maybe it's Emily Blunt and Josh o' Connor from the beginning and they, like, don't understand why they have this connection and are figuring it out and why are we a dyad in the forest and all this sort of stuff like that. Or, you know, it's about the relationship between Jane and. And Kellner, but that's sort of just dropped in a way that is confusing to me. So I don't know. Josh o'. Connor. This is just not what. I get why you cast him. Because he has. Oh, for sure, he's so talented in general, but he also has that childlike face, that sort of like, he can do that childlike one. And we'll talk about the Spielberg face a bit more later. But, like, I get why you cast him, but I just don't think they used him to the best of his abilities and he can do so much.

[B]

Emily Blunt, however, just an unbelievable performance sensation. Will she get nominated for an Oscar? She should.

[A]

She should.

[B]

I hope she does.

[A]

Golden Globe for sure. Golden Globe for sure. It sort of depends on how I

[B]

can see Disclosure Day being a big Golden Globes movie, for sure.

[A]

Hollywood Foreign Press is so excited about Disclosure Day. But, you know, this is. I would love for her to get Oscar. I think she should because, like, it's a. It's an emotional performance. It's a funny performance, and I think comedy should be more readily recognized at the Oscars. I think she deserves it in general.

[B]

Like, I think that the humor of the movie was one of the really successful parts and she's the engine of so much of that. I thought that all of the. Margaret Jackson.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Emily Blunt, Wyatt Russell scenes were amazing. Just amazing.

[A]

The hospital, like, the hospital hysterical.

[B]

Like, is her reaction to him revealing this trauma and the dreams and the singing.

[A]

It's like, you do.

[B]

You do. Yes. Every night. You know, they're both just so great in that scene. The, like when they cut through the bathroom into the other patient's room because her. She has at this point clicked. She Spoke in fluent Russian. She's spoken Korean. She doesn't. She's had the interaction with the cop who pulled her over with people on the local news set. You know, you gotta get out. So she has a different level of awareness of what is happening to her, because, like, the. When she's speaking these other languages, which is. She doesn't know, but when she tells the cop these innermost truths about how he feels about his wife, his new baby, et cetera, she doesn't. She's like, what the fuck just happened? So when she looks at Jackson and is like, she doesn't have to say out loud what he's thinking. The comedy is in not saying it and saying to him, oh, you. How dare you think that? Because it's, like, about their relationship. And then later, there is a little bit more of an overt at the convenience store gas station when she'll end up splitting. Like, you wouldn't move. You wouldn't go with me if I moved.

[A]

Like, you want me to go.

[B]

You want to say, you have your thing. We've grown apart. People grow apart. The. I think in some ways, not only the single, like, funniest maybe moment, but the.

[A]

The.

[B]

To me, the encapsulation of why the humor was so important as, like, a pressure valve release in the film was actually in a stretch of the movie that I thought wasn't as successful. But toward the end, when they get back to the station, they are about to on via broadcast news, as we have said many times, and we'll continue to say throughout the podcast, because it is just so perplexing, reveal this instead of just putting it on the Internet. The fact that Daniel, at the beginning of the movie, on the phone with Hugo was like, I'm going to just put it on the Internet right now. And Hugo's like, don't you dare. And I felt. It felt so keenly like they had that in there, just to basically acknowledge that the Internet existed, which is, like, pretty rough anyway, you know, getting everybody ready, convincing the station head, like, okay, where's the control room? Where's the this? And everything is so we know that Scanlan knows where she's going. They're gonna be there soon. The generator.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The tension is so keen. And then it's like, do you want makeup? Yeah. Like, that's just gold. It's so good.

[A]

And like, listen, I so appreciate the comedy that's here again, almost entirely carried by Emily Blunt inside of this movie because, like, I feel like more movies used to have that just sort of Like, a sense of humor throughout. Again, rewatching Last Crusade or even Jurassic Park. Like, you know, not the only two great movies that exist, but, like, you can have action and intensity and emotionality and also just, like, keep things, like, funny and entertaining. And, like, Harrison Ford is, like, incredible at that. Inside of Last Crusade. I knew, but, like, the exchange when they're in the speedboat in Last Crusade and he's like, are you crazy? Don't go between them. And she's like, go between them.

[B]

Are you crazy? I mean, like, it's just, like, so

[A]

funny, and I'm just like, that's. You know, And Project Hail Mary had that in spades. Like, it was just, like, so emotional and so funny throughout. And I just think that, like, we often lose it, you know, like, we're so excited for the Odyssey, and we're so excited for Dune Part 3. Those are not gonna be funny movies. And that's okay. Things don't have to be. But I think the more we can have that sort of like. Like, you know, that you want to be entertained. You want to eat your popcorn, hear your John Williams score.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And laugh.

[B]

You want to be entertained and laugh. And also, in a story especially, that is, in part oriented around assessing and interrogating what the human experience is supposed to be, you have to include. That is part of why I just find I don't enjoy War of the World. It's not as a story, but that adaptation is so. So it's a fun action movie. And maybe that can actually transition us into talking a little bit about the action and the filmmaking for another beat. But I'm like, I just. I mean, this is, like, not to be. I'm not hoping they all die, but, like, not really a family. I'm, like, rooting for as I watch that movie. It's so grim.

[A]

Great. Dakota Johnson. It is kind of amazing performance. But, like. But, like, I mean, she's.

[B]

She's so good at all. But, like, you know, we talked a lot about the pace already and that this is very much a chase movie. We talked about some of the camera work, but what else on that front in terms of just the actual craft of filmmaking and what Spielberg can do, that is just God tier.

[A]

I mean, when we were standing in the lobby outside of our screening, I believe it was Sean who was like, I don't even understand how his camera did some of the things that it did in that, like. But one of the most impressive things, the camera. Like, when Emily Blunt comes into the newsroom for the first Time. That is like a really impressive nimbleness of the camera.

[B]

That's the great one. Yeah.

[A]

When Kellner, as played by Josh o', Connor, is trying to creep up on this farmhouse and there's a million and one agents around and he's just sort of like creeping through the field and then into the car and stuff like that. Again, what the camera does is dazzling. We can't wait to see the behind the scenes of like, how they actually, like, physically accomplish that. And at the same time, we're like, literally every single agent would have hurt him and turned like, yeah, it's an

[B]

open fence and like some branches hiding him.

[A]

Bizarre. Like, absolutely, genuinely bizarre. Yeah, this is a lot. So the camera stuff I think is always impressive with Spielberg. Visually. There's this. I was trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm like, what is it about earlier Spielberg that I feel so lush? And then later Spielberg all has this same sort of like, flat aesthetic to me. So Janis Kaminski, who's his longtime collaborator since Schindler's List and, you know, an incredible talent, has this process that he likes to do called bleach bypass, which sort of washes out the color. It's an intentional stylistic washing out of the color. They use it in Saving Private Ryan to sort of give you that like, gritty war, war torn feeling. There's constant dust in the air sort of thing. Works so well in Minority Report to give you this sort of dystopian surveillance state. Everything is kind of chilly and blue and sort of faded in that movie. I love it. I think it looks amazing. He also did Catch Me if youf can, which is like quite colorful and poppy, but like, that sort of washed out look becomes this kind of go to palette going forward. It's the hallmark of their collab and especially with Spielberg's increasing reliance. Or sort of like Robert Zemeckis, one of our great innovative filmmakers who became enchanted by the idea of cgi. But unlike, you know, your Villeneuve's or your Nolans, like, doesn't use CGI in a way that like, can match the kind of storytelling that he told before. So, like, why do the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park? Not all of them. Those brontosauruses. I have some notes, but, like, why do the dinosaurs in Jurassic park look better than the animals in this movie? And, you know, perhaps that's intentional.

[B]

I think the most charitable possible explanation is that the CGI fox, the cardinals, the deer, the raccoon shout out that

[A]

raccoon are like alien hallucinations Right.

[B]

The aliens choose to present as alien, as animals in order to like soothe the children they're abducting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Slash choosing.

[A]

Is that, Is that, is that an alien? Then is the bird that comes into her beautiful loft in Kansas City on a weather girl's salary. Is that an alien or is that just a bird that reminds her of her alien experience?

[B]

No, I think, I think definitely that's

[A]

an alien that's like.

[B]

Because that's when her activation happens. So for Daniel, because they have this shared force dyad moment when they're 10. Right. When they're children. And then he unlocks earlier, as we learn, in a super smooth, smoothly delivered bit of exposition about like. Well, in college you were flunking and doing a lot of ketamine and couldn't make. And he's like, I couldn't form connections with any other people because of the math. In my mind, his activation happens earlier and that's what facilitates. It's his ability to. Why we learn he's like recruited at Wardex and all that. But her activation is inside of the movie via Kitchenbird.

[A]

So the kitchen bird is an alien. It's not a bird. Fine. And I can buy into that. I just don't. Again, when we are asked to consider this in the larger scope of Spielberg's filmography and we think of the pop of red, of Elliot's hoodie for sure. Or the sunburst worst colors of Close Encounters. Oh my God.

[B]

Opening the door. And the orange.

[A]

Exactly. You know, and so that just visceral, vibrant wonder that is. That is inside of those experiences. And then more the world again is like washed out intentionally so because this is just like. That's a different though there are. There's like the red lights inside of that landscape that sort of have impact, but here, like, you know, you've got a lot of bright white lens flare, washed out ness. That just doesn't make me feel like I am stepping into a wider world of wonder and exploration and discovery.

[B]

I think that the effect of so the cause. We have three of these sonic screwdriver esque devices in the primary story. Right? Yeah. So there's the one that Daniel has absconded with. There's the Hugo one, and then there's the Scanlan one that he is using to dive into.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When we get to see. And when crucially Margaret and Daniel get to see, they're watching a movie of their own life. Right. In the role of like storytelling and film and filmmaking is very present there. And just in general, in that kind of fairy tale esque presentation and rendering of that sequence. The rings that are made of those devices that go down over each of them to kind of imbue them with these abilities. Right. They're respective dyad and the Force abilities. He will be able to speak the language of the universe. Mathematics. Mathematics. I love that.

[A]

It's very. Contact.

[B]

It's really. Yeah, for sure. There's some contact was on my mind actually with the religion stuff as well in terms of like how would actually like religion. I'm always thinking that the effect on the eyeball, the deer who then morphs into the alien over the face. The moment in the hospital where Emily Blunt face is like visible against the bald head of the guy who's pretending to be in the FBI. Exactly. Incredible. Pretending to be on the FBI agent. Some of those visuals I thought were like really gripping. They were all in the trailers. And so actually I was like, I think more excited for what the visual palette of the film would be based on the teases and glimpses we got. But that was the extent of it. Right. You don't see that like really cool eye effect of that ring of devices in their pupils outside of the moments that we had basically already seen and seen in the posters, et cetera, on the like CGI animal front. And I want to talk just for another minute here about like the role that movies and stories play in the. In the film. And especially like thinking about that through the lens of where Spielberg is in his career and thinking about the role of the stories that he has told and wanted to tell and what that unlocks for us. Right.

[A]

So.

[B]

So I think the most generous read on the CGI that I can attempt to provide is that the animals are supposed to look strange and uncanny because they're trying to say this is a child's experience of basically their version of a fairy tale. So it would look like an animal pulled out of a storybook, pulled out of the Hansel and Gretel.

[A]

The gingerbread house. Gingerbread house.

[B]

That you are walking through the curtain of warm water and the snow that isn't cold on your bare feet into that experience. I don't like, mind that. I think it's like slightly distracting actually how they look in the movie, the fox in particular. But I think that that logic kind of holds for me. Whether it works for everyone is like the idea that the. I had that you, you, you've. You hit this early and we've come on, come at it a few times. Like I. I wrote every time I wrote in our doc, like, like abducted Sl Chosen, you know, because it is, I think, given that so much of the film hinges around the people are the. Are the bad ones, the aliens are misunderstood and let's give them a chance and oh my God, look at what we're doing to them. But could we do it a different way? They are at the end of the day leading these two children out of their homes into their ship and altering their minds and their very beings in a way that they will not understand for decades.

[A]

We'll call it calls them trauma.

[B]

Deep trauma. I thought that one of the most harrowing moments in the movie was because you have the brain scan after the clicking on the broadcast and then the collapse. It's like most people will be relieved to hear there was no stroke, there's no mass. But then the Parkinson's thing comes up, right? Like when the doctor asking, like, when did your father's. What was the time for the onset of your father's Parkinson's? And she's like, that's not what this is, is it? And then when Daniel and Margaret are on the train and she's having a panic attack and he's calming her, I hands like, this is what this is with my father. That was so intense and that was so great. And like connecting to your childhood trauma. Not only this moment that she's like, I don't want to think about that. I don't want to look at that until I have to. And then Daniel is in a different place where he's like, I have these missing aspects of my life. You can, you can look at somebody and understand everything that's ever happened to them. Can you tell me about when I was a kid? That's like, really interesting. I thought that was all really good and cool. I. I think the fact that like we go to, at the end of the day, Margaret's childhood home, which Hugo and his team have built inside of a soundstage. They have. They are making a movie, right? They're making a movie.

[A]

Oscar winning production design. Where did they get all of like.

[B]

I know. Where'd they get all of those pre, like Instagram era? How do they know every.

[A]

Every detail of her childhood? That's fine.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

They're a shady, shadowy, that conspiracy or organization. So they've been inside all of our homes. Fine.

[B]

That's like just a movie. They're making a movie to help them understand what has happened to them.

[A]

My favorite interpretation of this is me. Yes. Ending your point of Close Encounters.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is that Richard Dreyfus's character, you know, and we've been talking about this a lot with the. With the Nolan films, like, what story Christopher Nolan is telling about being a creator that takes you away from your family and the pain of that or the defense of that, you know. And so for Richard Dreyfus, who is the creator inside, you know, the artist who makes the mashed potato, you know, incredible scene like all of that, he's the artist, he's the creator, he's the storyteller, he's the director. And what he has to do is more important than being with his family at. That's the story of that movie, you know. And like, I don't agree with that, but I think it's a compelling story to tell and it really unlocks something for me inside of that. And I. I love when. I think it's interesting when directors do that because, like, it's incred. It can be incredibly flawed. But they're like defense of their own lifestyle choices of like, this is the decision that I've made. Is that like my art and. And the role it will play in the world. Drive, you know, drive character is like. Like making a connection with alien Earth, alien life. And people are just like, yep, that's the same as me making movies. That's the same. Same. And so, yeah, the Colman Domingo as Spielberg. I mean, if. If I'm putting an author insert into a movie, I'd love for Colman Domingo to play me. Sounds great.

[B]

What an absolute honor.

[A]

Sounds great.

[B]

What an absolute honor.

[A]

Yeah, he's kind of in like Spielberg drag the whole movie. It's kind of amazing.

[B]

He's just so good.

[A]

But yeah, I do think that idea of like, like, let's set the scene and take you back into this. And they're, you know, they're the audience in this movie and like Spielberg face, which is something I always love to talk about inside of this movie. When the two of them are sitting there and their faces are like tilted up and the light is on them, like, that's. That's the most Spielberg face. I. I will say this, and I hesitate to say it, but I'm going to say it. Emily Blunt is so good in this movie. She's an incredible person, an incredible talented person. She has also put a lot of like, Botox and filler in her face. And the face is moving more in this movie than certainly did in Devil Wars Prada 2, and certainly than it has like, I think an Oppenheimer in like, in a while. It's moving a bit more. But, like, when, like Spielberg face is your. Is your signature move. And one of those faces, the, the, the most talented performer in your movie has. And here's what I'll say. I've been in LA two months. I've had five different people recommend their Botox person to me. Like, this, this is just a reality. This is a reality of living in Los Angeles. We're on camera, we're doing a fucking photo shoot next week. Like, you know what I mean?

[B]

Absolutely horrible.

[A]

No one asked for this. But yeah, like, I've had and by the way, like, people I like and admire and who. And whose faces actually look quite normal. But, like, you know, you get this sort of like dysmorphic thing with your face when you're inside of this industry. And I get it and I'm not judging her, but it has impacted her instrument. And, you know, Spielberg face, which is like one of, you know, like, Elliot Neaty is like a huge example of that. But like Sam Neill and Laura Dern, when they're like, looking at the brontosaurus for the first time. Roy Scheider, when he's looking at the shark in the water, like, my pal Mat Patches, like, coined this phrase in 2011. There's this great video essay about it by Kevin Lee that he made in 2011 off of Matt Essay. But, like, it's one of his greatest instruments. It's this look of wonder and a dolly in. And it's just like. And the way he uses, when he uses it. Harrison Ford's so good at it in Indiana Jones when he uses it, where he shows you the face before he shows you what they're looking at.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And so that we get to, like, wonder along with the person. Like, what is there on astonishment? It's so powerful. I love. So anyway, like. And it's always like, this is what it's like to go to the movies is how I always think about it. You know what I mean? And so, like, for Emily Blunt and Josh o' Connor, in that scene, they're going to the movies. The movie's about their life. You know, it's the Fabelmans of their life or whatever, you know, but, like, what are they gonna learn in her

[B]

childhood bedroom and watch a movie about their own life? I really love what you're, what you, what you said about the Richard Dreyfus character and Close Encounters and the stand in for this important thing that you have to do. It made me think that, like, it's a little bit of a Cat Stevens, Father and son esque.

[A]

Cats in the Cradle sort of thing.

[B]

Like the idea that you have different perspectives depending on where you are in your life. Because he's also, I think, undeniably the son. Trying to say, like, my father had a more important. Oh, absolutely.

[A]

He is. He is definitely also the son.

[B]

And justify that, which is just so interesting. Even just the movie opening with the wrestling match is like. Wrestling is a sport theater, but. But it's theater, and it is about buying in even though you know you're being lied to. And obviously, that is kind of like a inspired place to. To start. I love that dyad in the Force. What haven't we hit here, if anything? Actually, I think we did this that you would like to. To talk about. Yeah, I guess there's the, like, passenger thing, you know, that there are kind of like passengers trying to understand, are

[A]

we deep divers, Mellor?

[B]

We sure are deep divers. I like when you're using the thing. You're a diver. And then she says, because she's not. Before. This is before she holds the device she dropped in. I like that.

[A]

The terminology.

[B]

That was fun and interesting. I do have a note for the aliens here. Okay, I get that we, in addition to abducting the children, are choosing them. So there's this chosen one aspect.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Two chosen ones. Great. Why now? Hugo is our source for this, so maybe he's wrong, but there are always two of you. Only two of you.

[A]

There must be two. They must be beautiful and one boy, one girl.

[B]

They must be two hot Brits pretending to be Americans. That's the. Shouldn't the aliens have some, like, contingency plans and redundancies?

[A]

Yeah, what if Josh O', Connor, like, OD'd in college or whatever? Who would be their math guy then? Do they have to start over? Have they done this for many cycles and this is the first time their chosen ones made it to fruition?

[B]

Oh, my God. I know. But they had to wait decades to find out if they were gonna.

[A]

All this has happened before, and it will happen again. There you go. Also, are Josh o' Connor and Emily Blunt supposed to be the same age in this movie?

[B]

I think so. Which. Which power set would you prefer to have? Would you prefer to be speaking the language of the universe, mathematics, or would you prefer to be able to look into some. Look into somebody's eyes or talk to them on the phone or engage with them in any way and understand everything that has ever happened to them, everything about them?

[A]

And I can appear as the person

[B]

and you can appear as their, like, dead wife. If you need to just get through to the parking lot, to your car. You need to. You need to escape with the quickness. And you're like, I am your dad and I never told you I loved you.

[A]

Math. It's obviously Emily Blair.

[B]

They're so. It's so I could speak any language.

[A]

He got the math talent. That's unbelievable.

[B]

And the idea that they're, you know, the alien will whisper to him at the end, and then he will whisper to her, and then she ends on that kind of chilling listen.

[A]

I mean, I guess. But, like, if she speaks, click. Can she not click herself?

[B]

What an interesting question. And she not click herself. Incredible. Yeah, it's. I. I also think it seems overwhelming. Obviously, that's part of the comedy and fun of the movie, is that she's very frazzled by, like, oh, yeah. Unfolding in real time. But it would be kind of intense to, like, I don't actually want to know. Reading minds would be powerful, but I don't really actually want to know what's going on in everybody's head.

[A]

It's a classic in, you know, it happens in an episode of Buffy. Earshot. Like, when you get this power, it is so overwhelming, you cannot function.

[B]

You learn that your mom fucked Giles twice.

[A]

What's a stevedore?

[B]

Ward X? 79 years of coverups. This question of who owns the truth, who deserves to know the truth? Whose decision is that? Right. What do people do with the truth once they receive it or confront it? Who controls it, who disseminates it? All of it. So there's this whistleblower aspect with Daniel, with Hugo, with his team. This is like, plenty of whistleblowing in the world, right? The idea that somebody would come across information and then decide they had to act upon it. Believable. An interesting, like, core building block. And what can the movie do based on those building blocks? Aspect of this is that Daniel has done this thing. When he shows Jane the footage, he's escaped with all of the flash drives.

[A]

Fun productions of that on the flash drives.

[B]

I did like those. And on the clicking front, satisfying the click in and out of the thing that he plugs them into. Don't know what. What that's called. Not a computer.

[A]

Flash drive.

[B]

Flash drive, sure.

[A]

No, that's the drive.

[B]

That's the drive. Flash port, a dongle. I don't know.

[A]

Don't email us. I don't care to know.

[B]

So Hugo, I would say, has the more in terms of what is important for us to Understand about a person's potential response to this. Hugo deciding to do this is more important than Daniel because Daniel has been coded since he was abducted child to make this decision.

[A]

It's also like Hugo's movement that Daniel is sort of like swept up in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wouldn't it be nice to know a bit more about Hugo?

[B]

Yeah, it would. And the other people.

[A]

He's the person who sort of like started this revolution in his relationship and

[B]

he was punished by this.

[A]

An angel.

[B]

Yes, in a way, by an alien that freed him and then felt this was wrong, what they were doing.

[A]

Hints of his relationship with Scanlan, you know, But I would like to know more of that.

[B]

That.

[A]

And in order to do so. Yeah. I would cut the entire religion subplot, despite finding it interesting. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Tell me why.

[A]

And like, I thought Elizabeth Marvel, who plays the. The nun. Fantastic. I love that actress. Like, I love her. So as a. As a hand in hand question.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And something that is here in all of the Spielberg's stories. Not just like, you know, his exploration of like, you know, the very traumatic experience of Jewish people in the world, but also just like, you know, ET as this sort of like Christ, like, can heal people, sort of figure. Or like Moses come down to the mountain in Close Encounters. Or like, you know, a fucking Holy Grail, you know, like watching Last Crusade

[B]

reminds me to tell you I'm finally reading Everlasting, having the time of my life.

[A]

It's so good.

[B]

It's one hour.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's so exciting.

[B]

I'll text you updates.

[A]

The search for the cup of Christ is a search for the divine in all of us is a line from Last Crusade. Marcus Brody, who got lost in his own museum, sometimes has very interesting things to say. But like, you know, or what Henry says when they're on the crossroads, which is just sort of like the search for the Grail is not search for glory. It's we're fighting against evil. Like these big questions of religiosity and faith. And a bigger something as bigger than we are is hand in hand with this idea of UFOs and extraterrestrials. And how is there a larger force in the galaxy? Is there. How small are we compared to what's going on in the cosmos is, you know, and Spielberg has talked about this, is there, you know, do all of us across the galaxy, in all our different, you know, alien forms, you have an idea of a God or, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or are the aliens of God? Can. Can faith coexist with the concept with the proof, the evidence of aliens. And that's the thing in Indiana Jones. These sort of, like, relics that are sprinkled throughout this adventure and ultimately in Crystal Skull of aliens. But, like, these relics that prove. Yes, you know, yes, there are Old Testament, you know, ghost spirit things in Raiders, there is, you know, a Grail knight and Grail Christ's cup. In Last Crusade, there is proof of God. So there is proof of aliens in this movie. And I understand the impulse to connect those two themes. And I do think the line, we haven't lost f. You haven't lost faith in God, you've lost faith in people. That is a banger line. I'm really compelling. But I think they really failed in just the way they disseminated this across the characters. Like, I think it would have been. And again, I thought Eve Hewson was really good in this movie, but I think it would have been for Economy of Story or whatever, to make either Josh o' Connor's character or Emily Blunt's character, like the religious person who's grappling with this thing, you know, to make it sort of this other. What if that had been the case

[B]

and then couldn't do it because of Knives Out.

[A]

He's so good at Knives Out.

[B]

He's so good at Knives Out.

[A]

You're so right to call that out. That's such a better execution of this. Like, yeah, I just. So funny. He's great in that one, you know, Like, I, I, I like the idea of it, and I think the execution of it is really shoddy, and I think you could just so easily slice it out of the movie. Yes. And not really miss it. Her. Her Emily Blunt saying, I don't want to be a messiah. Like, don't kneel to me. And this, like, unwilling, you know, speaking in tongues. This, like. And I was thinking a lot about Samantha Morton in In Minority Report, this prophet who is traumatized by her power and her connection, her ability to see the future. So this is obviously an archetype that's interesting to Spielberg, and so that's an interesting journey for Emily Blunt's character. But I think Jane becomes so ancillary to the plot that it becomes a side quest that bogs down the last part of the movie.

[B]

I, I agree. I think it's like, it makes sense both in terms of that connection to the larger filmography and just in the sense that this is very much, at its core a movie about belief and our capacity for belief in. And I love what you're saying about those Moments of proof of like a definitive confirmation of something inside of thinking about faith. Because faith. And I am not a religious person, as I've said many times on many pods, and neither are you. Faith is like believing in what you can't see.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And what you can't prove. So like assessing all of that together is. Is fascinating. I think that the impulse to say for Jane to have a journey of. Of evolution where her doubt, when she receives that, she's horrified. Just as we understand Hugo was, as we know, Daniel was very upset to see the footage that she sees of the interrogations and the torment. But she worries, worries about how the masses would receive this information, what it would do to them, what it would do to their faith. And I like that phone call to Sister Mara and as you noted, like what she says in response about Jane's personal experience with faith and belief. But also more broadly, what we should. The credit we should give people for being able to hold many different truths in their mind at what once I thought was really interesting. I. It's very, it's just very. I think half baked. There could be less of it in the movie or there could be more of it. Yeah. And I think either of those would work. It's an interesting area of examination that is just simply like not fully teased out. You mentioned that I don't want to be a messiah moment. And I thought that was really emblematic of how this wasn't fully baked because Terry, I think her name is Terry1. If you go Hugo's team members who left seeing Margaret who goes around and says all of their names. Not that they needed more proof at that point, but proving her power to them. Right. Kneels down and grasps her hand. And we have had these conversations between Jane and Daniel. We have the, the, the Jane Sister Mara conversation. It. None of it aligns with the end of the movie. I think the questions that the movie is asking about doubt and varying responses are appropriate to ask. But the movie ends in a place of uniformity and consensus and like widespread credulity. Exactly. So it doesn't, it doesn't just coalesce.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In that respect. I did, I. I read this, I read this. There's a really a Vox piece from Dylan Scott that basically just outlines and like we should say, haven't said a couple things here. Part of the backdrop of this movie is like World War 3 is about to break out. Right. So there's that too.

[A]

In terms it has taken us nearly two hours to mention.

[B]

World War Three is about that the

[A]

premise of this movie is that the world is poised on the, on the verge of World War Three. But it is so stupidly executed because it just like is so inconsequential but consequential at the same time.

[B]

Supposed to. A lot of the final act hinges on the like this would be the thing that pulled everybody away from.

[A]

Lay down your arms. Yeah. What it.

[B]

No, we also haven't mentioned just some of the real world recent like current events. You know, the Obama comments which was amazing. And then of course the just inanity of Trump and his administration. Oh, we've got these. Oh, we've got files.

[A]

And everyone was like, huh, kept scrolling.

[B]

Exactly. So that's, that is important to mention

[A]

a God will not be scrolled. You know what I mean? Lestat. Lestat with us always.

[B]

This, this, this Dylan Scott Vox piece about Disclosure Day and, and its assessment of what religious people and people of faith would do in the wake of a revelation of this nature that we are not alone in the universe. And it, this piece just outline. I don't, I do not know a lot about this.

[A]

You know who'd be really cool about it? The Pope.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I dubbed Pope.

[B]

Who's Pope would be amazing about it.

[A]

The Pope who rules Pope will be great about it.

[B]

Really fascinating. You know, not obviously a complete accounting of every single religious person's standing on this matter, but the idea that actually a lot of people of faith, a lot of religious scholars in particular theologians have said not only I think there's probably life out there, but that, that I can, that that fits with my view of God. So I think there's like an entire movie that could be centered around this that would be riveting.

[A]

Well, that, you know, I was scrolling around trying to see like what people thought of this movie. And again, like plenty of people liked it. But, but the, the disappointment that some people had because it's in the trailer is that they were like, they thought Disclosure Day would be like the beginning or the first act of this movie.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that the aftermath would be what the substance of the movie was. That is not the case. It ends with listen. And then that's where we leave it. And so yeah, I mean, Disclosure Day two.

[B]

Yeah. More disclosures.

[A]

The Fall still disclosing Disclosure Night.

[B]

Disclosed Disclosure Night

[A]

about the fallout.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

That's kind of, you know, kind of interesting.

[B]

What about empathy as a superpower? Because in addition to religion, like, that's another kind of core theme and big idea that is certainly one of the areas where the Idea of World War three poised to erupt. These are connected also. Obviously the filmmaker trying to reach you through the power of story to say no. Except not only your fellow man, but your fellow being. Wherever they might come from. The aliens have that interest. As you noted about Rocky and Grace, the aliens have the interest in certain stories in getting to know us and understand and speak to us and through us us. What if we showed the same openness? Hugo says that empathy is an evolutionary advantage. That is one of the things that he says in the movie. Now we love to talk about empathy in our, in the stories that we cover. I think we believe that empathy can actually be a superpower. And this is certainly something in many different stories. Not just space movies, not just alien movies. Like when we, when we potted about andor we talked about this, we heard from people a lot that part of what, what this part of what genre stories can do is they can get you to think about how you receive the news around you. I think we'll talk about this maybe more in a minute when we get

[A]

to the ending and what, what didn't

[B]

totally work about it. But at its core, the idea that just opening your heart and mind to another person or being's experience is a better and more worthwhile and more holy perhaps way to live. Very interesting. I don't know that it felt totally do.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

But it was.

[A]

I, I, I agree. Empathy. Empathy rocks. This movie. This movie. Dare say empathy. Pretty good.

[B]

Empathy. Got a sign.

[A]

Math bad. Empathy great. That's how I feel.

[B]

We, we just didn't always have a no math policy. We always have a no a no math.

[A]

It's my flaw. It's my failing mathematicians of the world. I support you, but it's just not.

[B]

Math is not well for me here at House of Bar. Anything else on the ward X and like the, the bad guys and the COVID up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That we haven't hit that you want to talk about. I did like watching Colin Firth bite down on that mouth guard. I just find him always.

[A]

Do you want to say what you wrote in the notes?

[B]

I wrote bite me like that mouthguard. Daddy parenthesis. Is this still a meme? I don't know. Do the kids still do that or are they still like me?

[A]

Are you seated? Are you sad? I'm sad. Are you sitting? I'm sad. I am sitting. I'm sad.

[B]

You know Colin fans, Firth, one of the most important people in my life for decades on end at this point. Just a delight to see him. What'd you make of the accent.

[A]

I mean, I actually thought it was fine.

[B]

It was great. It was a deliberate choice, but very like posh, military, industrial complex, controlling asshole. Which is what it needed to be.

[A]

Well, I kind of really, I think it's baffling that he just sat down,

[B]

but I don't understand that.

[A]

But I kind of like liked Colin Firth in this movie.

[B]

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I thought he was a lot of fun. The diving was super, super cool. I mean we mentioned that earlier.

[A]

I did think that Jane stuff was really cool. I think, I think employing this actress who has these incredible eyes and giving us the like change of eye color as the signal and her attempt, you know, the slightly heavy handed but like using the crucifix to sort of like, you know, be in her own body and stay there and stay alert. I thought all of that was like, you know, pretty cool.

[B]

I liked that as well. Pretty cool. On the whistleblower front. I did think, you know, again, not, not every Daniel line was the most memorable in the movie, but I did, I liked and Josh o'. Connor, you know, he's so. When he is like really imploring and

[A]

he was like, we gotta disclose this today.

[B]

Well, didn't Hugo. Wasn't Hugo the one who was like, this will be the day to remember. I did really like. Because Daniel and Jane have a kind of fascinating philosophical debate about this. Is it up to him? Should it be up to him? Right. And she has her reason to fear and her own journey there. But I just. When he says it's not theirs. Right? Like there's the proprietary aspect of Wardex and what data they have and what they, what they do. Wave reporting, development and extraction. Real, real ominous name for your company right there. When he's like, they don't.

[A]

What did the aliens do if not extract those children from their bedrooms?

[B]

I know. God. Aliens. We have some notes. We do.

[A]

Consent is king aliens. And you did not give any to those children.

[B]

The aliens are better than the people. But they still. They're making some mistakes. They're making some mistakes. They are. Sorry. They're wearing some interesting athleisure though. The aliens are wearing. I have to focus on those. The alien. The creature design. But, but I did. I liked the kind of like jumpsuit athleisure wearing.

[A]

Have you seen the memes where people are saying he looks like Wemby?

[B]

I mean, absolutely, yes. And you know the, the.

[A]

And I know who that is.

[B]

And I get that reference you're all in on the NBA finals, which I, Which I love. It's a thrill. Sports Joe is really just thriving.

[A]

I would say medium in for you.

[B]

That's all in. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The most in I've ever been in basketball.

[B]

The idea, they don't know the truth. It doesn't belong to them any more than like the air or the light. I liked that. That was a good moment. The device does too much. Just plain and simple does too much. They can use it for anything they want.

[A]

Yeah. I love that you called it a sonic screwdriver. It made me feel like our entire watch through of Doctor who, despite not covering the new series and it being now canceled and buried is sheesh, worth it. But it's foundational sci fi text and you get it now and you can get it when it weird. I would put Rocky and the Tardis and you're like, I get that reference.

[B]

I know. I felt really at home in that moment. And then he turned to you and he was like, did she actually watch all of it? And you were like, no.

[A]

Well, I haven't seen all of it. Andy Weir, calm down. Okay, let's talk about the ending.

[B]

The ending. Boy.

[A]

Okay, listen. So here's another thing I want to admire about this movie. Tell me, Courtney Grace, who plays the reporter, the New York based reporter who is responsible for like narrating the footage. I think this whole sequence is baffling. Doesn't make sense. Would never work on people this way. The way that everyone immediately starts streaming this footage, is it like the way that they have like secret magic AI detectors in ground truth pixels? Is that a thing? Sorry, if it's a real thing, do you think. You don't think that first of all, 90% of the world would be like, this is AI or this is fake news or whatever. And then also like the other news organizations that you know is like picked up by the BBC and every, you know, like all around the world, all Jazeera, like et cetera, et cetera. They wouldn't be like, let's pause and authenticate this before we start. Also live streaming this footage. Like it's so pro journalism, but antithetical to what journalism actually is, that I. That I can't even stand it. But Courtney Grace's performance I thought was extraordinarily good. And if I were a casting director out there, I'd be like, I want her. Like, that's such a good, like intro. She's been in a bunch of stuff. But like as news reporter number five or like this, that or the other thing. And so like this is just Like a really cool showcase for an actress that I thought did a phenomenal job with all this. But let's go back to Spielberg face for a second, please.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So she's like, barrel down the camera. She's emotional, she's doing all this stuff. She's fantastic. Everyone else, this is true to the world. Head down on your phone.

[B]

Screen zombies. Yeah.

[A]

Screen zombies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Slack is that giving me look up in wonder at. At this thing that has come to our planet? No. We're all like this, this. And we're all agreeing that this is real and it's going to stop World War iii.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And change us fundamentally as people. And we're all going to listen to this, you know, weather girl, tell us what the aliens in their athleisure are saying. I'm like, I'm sorry, maybe I am

[B]

just like, I had the same response.

[A]

Maybe this is. I. I think it's Pat and Oswald. I think about this all the time. I think it's. Pat Osmold had a standup where he. It was some live show I went to where he was talking about Jer seeing Jerry Maguire and he saw Jerry Maguire, I think it was like on New Year's or something like that. And there's this line that Jerry Maguire says where he goes, we live in a cynical world. And whoever he was watching with was like, fuck you. Like loud at the screen because he just thought it was like such a dumb line. But I think about that all the time. Like, we live in a cynical world. Maybe I'm just like too Jerry Maguire for my own good. But I just could not buy into this. And I was like, what if this had been a period piece set in the 1950s or something like this and everyone's just sort of. Of like, you know, the flash drives wouldn't have been a thing. But like, you know, if we're like a different world where we can all watch the moon landing and most of us believe it's real or like, you know, whatever the case may be. And like, that's such a good call

[B]

up though, is like, there's just simply no way that everybody has the same response to this and says, like, yeah, not only do I believe this and I have no follow up questions, but it's the most important thing in my life right away. And I have. The movie is communicating to other us. The intention of that ending is. And we will now align and at least listen. And at least listen to what this

[A]

lady has to say.

[B]

It's just simply not what would happen there's no way I. So the period piece thing is interesting because on the one hand, as I've said many times as we both have, like, I think we are just in complete alignment. The movie doesn't really totally track in 2026. I think that's just true. However, the engine of the film is the idea of like, like the 79 year cover up and feeding back to Roswell and this like the fact that our institutions of passure. Yeah, but then we're just like that's where close encounters in ETR 77 and 82 and like those movies just down

[A]

the road, you know what I mean?

[B]

So maybe we should just do that again. But like. Yeah, I think this movie, the idea of disclosure day, the whistleblowing, the not just accepting that there's light life elsewhere, that we're not alone and that we should be open to that and embrace it, but that we have to challenge the figures in our countries and our lives, whether they are government officials. Though of course the. One of the things in the movie is like Nixon up now. The presidents aren't even read in because they become civilians after years. Kind of another example actually of like an interesting idea that's like almost like tossed away.

[A]

He's trying to like impress like Ed Sullivan essentially like really funny.

[B]

And so now this is like, you know the. Yes, the Department of Defense is a part of this. But this is like Wardex is like a private company. Right. And like that all makes sense. You know, they'd be profiting. They're just. They're finding at these crash sites alien tech. This is not a new thing. It's something we're certainly very open to. There's no trouble believing this part of the movie. This is like Spider Man Homecoming, right? You find the alien tech and you use it for your ads. Of course that would happen. No question that would happen. They're retrofitting and reverse engineering to try to make new tech and they're using what they've discovered. They're taking the aliens and they're holding them and they're torturing them and they're tormenting them and they're trying to learn and they're not actually learning anything of consequence. That all makes sense. I don't know if what Spielberg is interested in doing in this movie is possible, if it's a period piece, because it feels like it. The foundation is the undeniable aspect of a period of time of withholding and obfuscating and denying the public the truth that they deserve to know. But then it's like the response that people have. So using broadcast news instead of the Internet. Aspects like that have to be different because they have to feel more of the moment. It's a difficult melding attempt, I think, to say the story requires 80 years of deception, but the response does not feel like it exists in a period of time that's 80 years after Roswell.

[A]

That's not who we are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and unfortunately. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the ending of this movie.

[B]

It's very, very, very, very, very, very strange at the end.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. Even just the way the people in the various newsrooms are responding and like, it's. None of that made any sense. It's funny because when everybody boots up the photo, the shot in particular on the airplane, I'm just like, literally, like, not everyone has, like, WI fi up, like, stuff like that. Whatever. It is fun, though. We do have real life examples of, like, you know, the great meme, like, everybody's watching the World cup and the one dude is watching.

[A]

One just came out this week.

[B]

Avatar. Incredible. Like, you know, I'm certainly.

[A]

There you are. I'm just here.

[B]

There are certainly moments where everyone's like, I got to watch. Was every single person in the world doing this?

[A]

No.

[B]

But was every, like, American sports fan, like, I'm watching the. The end of game four, and this is the most insane thing that's ever happened in the NBA Finals.

[A]

Like, actually.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Extraordinary.

[B]

Yes. You know, the World cup is about to happen. Happen. Like. Like, I like that you called out the Martian conversation we had about what other. And that was one of the questions you asked on the pod was like, what other moments.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Could make us behave and respond this way?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think every one person.

[A]

Should one person have been watching Lord of the Rings or.

[B]

That would have been amazing. Let's just, like, get in the director's cut. Yeah. Let's just like, get one shot of that Gandalf.

[A]

That Gandalf shot from.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's hard enough to kind of believe that everybody would pay attention right away because it's just like you have your screen zombies and your people who are on their phones all the time. And they would see it. Sure. But they'd move on. They're, like, looking at, like. And so am I. Like, they're scrolling cat reels and stuff like that. They're scrolling. That's what we do. Like, our brains are rotting and melting because we can't stop. Just, like falling deeper into the abyss of Internet nonsense.

[A]

Like brain soup messes that Steven Spielberg's beautiful message of empathy and connection feels. But I just, I'm sorry.

[B]

So it's like, like, would people even all watch it in the first place? But then would they all respond that way? I would like to believe that everybody, this is about to. I'm going to say something dark here. Like, I would really like to believe that everybody would see the footage of the aliens, like, cut in half and their entrails out and crusty and being tormented and say, we can't accept it. We can't allow it. Unfortunately, we live in a world where that happens to people all the time.

[A]

And people are just in our country

[B]

and all over the world and they're like, some people are like, this is not acceptable. I can't allow it. I have to do something. Some people are like, I feel very disturbed and I don't know how to navigate that. That's like, of something we heard from a lot of people during andor. That was really powerful to talk about. And some people are like, I'm moving on to the next meme or I'm not paying attention. I don't even know what's going on in the world.

[A]

It's, it's so confusing. I mean, like, it's why I do think this idea of Spielberg wanting to send out this message into the world of like, empathy being so important.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is interesting and timely because. Yeah. Like, when you're on the scroll and you're just sort of like, like images of like, Palestine or whatever are just sort of like, coming up in your feed and like, I, I never scroll past that because, like, I would like the most garbage person on the planet if I ever did. But also, like, what am I helping anything by just, like, watching this video? That's not like, helping. I'm just telling myself I'm not the worst person in the world because I, like, didn't ignore it that way. But, like, you know when that happens and you're like, I just came here to escape and turn my brain off, and now you're asking me to engage this thing. It just blunts you. We talked about this. Yeah, we talked about this in andor just blunts you because then the next thing you see is like a cat video. And so then it all becomes this soup of the, of, of nothing, you know? And I, I, I think it's a devastating thing that's happening to us, but,

[B]

like, it's a deeply lamentable and, and, and we're, we've magic to confront.

[A]

We've never been more connected and we've never been more callous, I think. And, you know, it's just.

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I'm not. I don't want to like, advocate for like, a preachier ending or anything. I don't think that would be appropriate, and I don't think that's what the movie's trying to do. But it does feel like there's a distinction between the movie encouraging us to believe that an outcome like that is possible, which I think is powerful. And maybe the movie saying this is what we think would happen.

[A]

And I just.

[B]

Which is harder, I think, to just.

[A]

Like, I'm trying to fix it, and I can't fix it because if it had been like, what if it were coordinated? We're gonna show ourselves to the world, you know, like, you know, UFOs crafts will appear in the sky or whatever the case may be at a coordinated time. This is disclosure day. And here we are.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We've seen those movies a lot in the 90s. Mass hysteria. People screaming and running and crying and crashing their cars and fire hydrants exploding, like, you know, so I don't know. I wish we lived in a world where I could buy into the ending of this movie. But we don't.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And. But Emily Blunt, you were great.

[B]

She was. I another, like, I don't know that anybody but me cares about this. But another thing, in the end, the final act, that kind of takes me out of it a little bit. Not at the level of how are the people of the world responding to what has been disclosed, or is local news and then broadcast news the way that this would instantly reach everybody in 2026. But we get these interesting glimpses of all the footage. Some of it is like, you've got some fun, like, kind of Easter egg connections. I find it really perplexing why we have like, basically one, one and a half ish alien designs. There are a lot of different shapes.

[A]

Gilbert loves the grays. He loves. He loves. They're different sizes, stature.

[B]

But it's like, is it cause they're kids and adults or are they actually different? Like, did they just get taller or.

[A]

That'd be horrible because the little ones are getting anyway.

[B]

But like, you know, they've got. They've all got. Got their big heads and their big eyes and their gray skin and their long fingers, their spindly fingers. And, you know, ET Looks different, but like, I would say general shape. Ajace Close Encounters aliens are incredibly similar to how the aliens in here look. And short yeah, exactly. And War of the Worlds is the tripod design, obviously very different, but the craftsmen inside, you know, they have the very different, like, head plumes. But I'd say the design outside of that is not, not like so radically different. I'm kind of like, where's like the equivalent of Rocky, you know, just like if the idea is.

[A]

Or like in the Doctor who universe, like, you know.

[B]

Yeah, there's life everywhere.

[A]

One of them is a gelatinous blob.

[B]

Exactly. Like give us the kind of like everything everywhere, all at once. Like hot dog finger equivalent here of just like something.

[A]

I mean, they kind of did have hot dog fingers, but I take your point.

[B]

Yes, you're right. That's actually all we have here is the hot dog fingers.

[A]

You want the rocks, you want the sentient rocks.

[B]

Something just this feels like a way to reinforce visually in a movie where movie making and what we can do through story and visual language can remind us of our place in the world.

[A]

It's funny.

[B]

Show us how big the world is.

[A]

It's funny that we got this far. There's this story about aliens and, and religious belief and all of this. And I didn't mention in crop circles and I didn't mention one of my favorite movies actually, which is Signs. I love Signs. And like Signs is about, you know, a smaller scale story about a family and a community and the belief and a more violent incursion, obviously. But like, that's such a dumb movie. I really love it and how it handles this sort of like slack jawed, it's real kind of moment makes so much more sense to me. I don't know.

[B]

I think some of it is of the moment and some of it is it doesn't feel like there's an advancement of the thesis, which is where we

[A]

started, where you were just sort of like, I love E.T. i love close Encounters. War of the World's happened, but we've

[B]

done it and we've done it more successfully. Like the aliens are here. They came to Earth. They're actually not the bad guys. And let's embrace them and show at the end that actually we can. We've. We've just done that before.

[A]

So you're just ready for Disclosure night and what comes next? What does the Pope have to say about all this? Tune in. Number one, my hype draft, 2028, disclosure night.

[B]

I texted you, Sean and Rob last night that I would be taking gato in. Of the 2027 hyped draft, no one replied.

[A]

I was thinking about Flo And I was like, is Flo going to be, like, displaced by gato for you?

[B]

Nothing can ever displace Flo. Flo is eternal.

[A]

Do we want to disclose the fact on this disclosure day that Danny Heifetz has been texting us cat photos from his honeymoon?

[B]

From his honeymoon?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On his honeymoon.

[A]

He's a special person.

[B]

He's great. Some of those pictures are amazing. Yeah. Portrait.

[A]

He's like, portrait mode. Portrait mode.

[B]

And then. But he's using live photo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so you could really see his process of how he's zooming in

[A]

before he actually really careful if you send a live photo, Mallory, because she will always.

[B]

Don't do it.

[A]

She'll always long click it. Don't do it every time.

[B]

Can't help it. Can't help it. Do we do it? Did we hit anything else you want to hit?

[A]

I think we did it.

[B]

Great. We'll see everybody on Monday for our special announcement, our disclosure day.

[A]

You know what? It's better than the ending of this movie.

[B]

Disclosure day, a movie that I had fun watching and have a lot of notes.

[A]

Son, once again, I'm sorry I elbowed you so forcefully.

[B]

I. I'm glad you did. I. Because I'm not apologizing for clicking in your ear. Damn. So you have poor click. You abhor crevice. You love an ocean vista. These are things I know to be true. Thank yous. Thank you to our team Wardex crew here operating in the shadows.

[A]

You're the Colman Domingo. And we're all your disciples.

[B]

Carlos Chiraboga. Yeah. Scott Lee.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Jacob Cornette.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Arjuna Ramgapel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Jomia Deneran.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Squad. Amazing Squad. The truth doesn't belong to them any more than the light or the air. But they are our squad.

[A]

Beautiful. David Kep. Sometimes you can say things.

[B]

We'll see everybody on Monday for Lestat, later next week for Dark Knight Rise. Prizes. And then Hot D season three, baby.

[A]

Let's go.

[B]

Bye. Bye.

[A]

You can't reason with the sun.

[B]

Trust us, we've tried.

[A]

This summer, it's time to put that

[B]

angry ball of fire on mute.

[A]

Columbia's this omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless. But so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more

[B]

time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia.

[A]

Engineered for whatever.