‘Following’ and ‘Insomnia’ | Nolan Revisited

Summary

House of R: ‘Following’ and ‘Insomnia’ Revisited | A Dream of Nolan Spring

April 25, 2026 | The Ringer | Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson

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Brief Overview

This episode of House of R is a deep dive into Following (1998) and Insomnia (2002), as part of an ongoing Christopher Nolan retrospective. Hosts Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson revisit Nolan’s debut and his first studio thriller, examining their themes, filmmaking quirks, and influence within his oeuvre. They break down plot intricacies, signature Nolan motifs, and celebrate the idiosyncratic elements that run through his filmography, from non-linear structure to questions of guilt, identity, and morality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Series Context and Programming (05:10–06:46)

• The viewing order is intentionally non-linear to reflect and honor Nolan's preferred style.
• The retrospective will continue with Tenet, more Batman entries, and Oppenheimer, all leading up to Nolan’s upcoming epic, The Odyssey.
• Spoiler warning: Plots and twists of both films are overtly discussed—listeners are advised to watch beforehand.

2. ‘Following’ Deep Dive (07:15–32:59)

Production & Overview

• Debut film, shot in the UK for $6,000, black-and-white (for budget; easier to light).
• Premiered at San Francisco International Film Festival (08:15).
• Nolan wrote Memento’s script while editing Following, strategically positioning himself for his next project (08:49).

Plot & Style Breakdown

• Follows a hapless, unemployed writer (Bill) who randomly follows strangers, gets pulled into a world of crime and deception.
• Told in an aggressively non-linear, noir style, it “smuggles an insecure-writer story into a noir genre tale” (10:06).
• Hosts note that all the core Nolan elements are present: unreliable narrators, identity games, object fetishism, insert shots, foils/twinning, storytelling about storytelling.

Mallory (11:38):

"It's like those tiny little dehydrated dinosaurs you put in water, and then they grow—That’s what Following is for Nolan's career..."

Low-Budget Creativity Shapes Nolan’s Style

• Black-and-white for budget and speed (13:19).
• Tricks like “dry running” scenes for clean audio, origin of totem/object insertion shots, intercutting and cross-cutting as editing/coverage cheats—distinctive Nolan methods that persist in his blockbusters.

Joanna (13:10):

"This might be the most important Nolan film to watch to understand his whole thing."

Nolan Hallmarks Originating in ‘Following’

• Crime/heist structures, “man’s inability to know himself,” objects/totems (seahorses, earrings, etc), duality/twinning, nonlinear stories, ticking scores and sound design, and a protagonist as audience surrogate.

Mallory (24:56):

"The invitation right away...you are meant to be confused. It's an invitation to feel comfortable in that confusion."

Thematic Throughlines

• Protagonists actively deceived—audience is aligned with their confusion.
• Rules and their inevitable violation; the driving psychological engine is “What is hidden versus what is revealed, and how objects tell us about people” (19:55).
• Anchors for the audience: steady, well-lit scenes up front to build trust before dropping into narrative chaos (29:34).
• Cheap props substituting for “student film” guns (hammer as weapon), later rationalized narratively.

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3. ‘Insomnia’ Deep Dive (32:59–53:27)

Production & Adaptation Origin

• First major studio film after Memento, adapted from a Norwegian thriller (34:00). Nolan directs, but not credited as writer (though he revised the script).
• Significantly increased budget and top-tier stars: Al Pacino, Robin Williams, Hilary Swank.

Comparing Adaptation Choices

• Nolan’s version gives the protagonist Dormer greater moral ambiguity and guilt than the original, centering the question: “Can you know your own mind?”
• Insomnia’s ending is fundamentally more optimistic (“hopecore”)—Nolan wants viewers to leave feeling resolved, in contrast to the bleak Norwegian original.

Joanna (42:38):

"He wants to make something entertaining that's slightly intellectual but not so much that you feel like you're struggling...but with catharsis and reconciliation."

Themes & Techniques

• Guilt and self-deception central: Dormer’s actions are ambiguous, and he’s tormented by uncertainty.
• Robin Williams’s antagonist Finch as a classic Nolan “mirror” or rival—measuring stick men.
• Stylistic continuity: brief non-linear flashes and insert shots, physical representations of Dormer’s encroaching sleeplessness.
• The Alaskan setting as a psychological and narrative device—its “relentless sun” mirroring Dormer’s internal unrest.

Quotes

Robin Williams’s Finch to Pacino’s Dormer (70:25):

"Motivations are everything, Will. What did you see through the fog?"

Mallory (24:56, on audience perspective):

"It's an invitation to feel comfortable in that confusion."

Joanna (50:56, quoting Nolan):

“The film Insomnia is about responses to guilt...the film says something about the role of guilt in defining morality..."

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4. Signature Segments & Hallmark Categories (56:46–101:56)

Funniest Line/Moment

• Mallory highlights Pacino’s repeated “halibut” jokes as a wry comic thread in Insomnia (57:20).
• Joanna points out the scene in Insomnia where Pacino and Williams play “good cop/bad cop,” both trying to outdo each other.

Sickest Set Piece (62:06–67:34)

• Insomnia: Log chase and fog shootout are standouts. Hosts discuss how these sequences embody action-as-storytelling, a Nolan strength.
• Following: Bill’s awkward home haircut, but especially a memorable, architecturally distinct door (“sickest piece of the set”).

Nolan’s “Most Nolan” Elements (99:07–101:03)

• Following: “Literally everything is a Nolanism.” It’s his career’s veritable Rosetta Stone.
• Insomnia: The “measuring stick men” (Dormer and Finch), classic Nolan, reflecting his fascination with dual rivals locked in moral and psychological battle.

Stealth MVP

• Mallory: The “16mm black-and-white” film stock in Following; in Insomnia, the relentless Alaskan landscape and its interplay with the locals’ mindset.
• Joanna: Robin Williams’s performance—underrated, “tremendous in this movie" (82:07).

Most Baffling Accent (75:45–77:37)

• Both hosts riff on Pacino’s “all over the map” accent in Insomnia: sometimes Southern, sometimes New York, sometimes Californian, always completely inexplicable.

Most Satisfying Twist (89:23–94:57)

• Following: A masterpiece of layered deception, where every plot thread turns with a twist, especially the realization that Bill has been meticulously incepted into taking the blame for murder and burglary.
• Insomnia: The reveal involving the planted murder weapon (“heating vent near the floorboards”), echoing narrative misdirection—shades of The Dark Knight.

Actor Who Should’ve Returned to Nolanverse (96:25)

• Alex Haw, who played Cobb in Following, gets universal acclaim. “Why is Alex Haw not one of the most famous people alive?...So suave, so charming, so twisted. So watchable...” (96:30).

Miscasting & Female Characterization (86:37–88:49)

• They critique Nolan’s struggles with ingenue-type female roles, specifically Hilary Swank’s underwritten Ellie in Insomnia.
• Discussion of Maura Tierney’s “ghostly” lodge worker—thinly sketched, possibly not even “real,” less a character than a device for Dormer's self-talk.

Most Exquisitely Gorgeous Shot (72:47–75:28)

• Overwhelming favorite: Insomnia’s opening—a tiny plane dwarfed by stark snowy mountains, visually setting up themes of being overwhelmed and isolated.
• Runner-up: Following’s intimate pan over totemic objects; a testament to the cinematic value of the small and cheap.

Horniest Moment (94:57–96:12)

• The underwear-sniffing “inhales deeply” moment in Following is called out as “absolutely filthy.”
• A joking nomination: “Anytime someone breathes, you’re like, they’re coming!” (95:22).

Final Reflections

• Following as Nolan’s essential “skeleton key”—if you want to ‘get’ him, start here (13:10).
• Insomnia showcases Nolan’s ability to make twisty, psychological fare accessible, “hopeful,” and resonant with broad audiences.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On following’s DNA:
  Mallory (11:53): “Remember. . .those little dehydrated dinosaurs. . . you put them in water and they’d grow—That’s what Following is.”

• On narrative anchors:
  Joanna (29:34): “If the first few minutes the camera looks good and the sound looks good, you are drawn in. . . Then you can forgive how shaky and shitty the camera work looks later.”

• On Pacino’s accent:
  Joanna (77:19): “Sometimes it’s Southern, sometimes it’s Bronx, and sometimes it’s L.A. I don’t know what he’s doing. I don’t think he knows what he’s doing. . .”

• On Robin Williams’s performance:
  Joanna (82:07): “Robin Williams is, like, tremendous in this movie. . .I actually think Robin Williams is, like, tremendous in this movie.”

• On the core of Nolan’s worldview:
  Joanna (42:38): “He wants catharsis and reconciliation. You want to go home uplifted.”

• On narrative technique:
  Mallory (24:56): “It’s an invitation to feel comfortable in that confusion.”

• On “measuring stick” men:
  Mallory (99:26): “The idea of Dormer and Finch. . . watching rivals who are also parallel peers. . .such a consistent way through which Nolan positions his characters and explores his ideas.”

• On the most Nolan shot:
  Joanna (73:03): “Here's Chris with a lot of money. . .able to show you just something, like, really shiny and gorgeous. . .”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:19] Following background, origin, and summary
• [08:49] Nolan’s parallel writing/editing of Following and Memento
• [10:06] Plot and stylistic analysis of Following
• [13:10] Low-budget on-set innovations and their influence
• [24:12] Audience-as-protagonist storytelling philosophy
• [29:34] "Anchor" techniques to guide the viewer
• [32:59] Transition to Insomnia and difference from other Nolan films
• [34:00] Adaptation choices vs. Norwegian original
• [42:38] “Hopecore” and why Nolan likes cathartic, comprehensible endings
• [50:56] Quotations from Nolan on guilt and morality
• [57:20] Funniest moment: “Halibut fishing capital of the world”
• [62:06] Sickest set piece: Insomnia log chase/fog shootout
• [75:45] Most baffling accent: Pacino’s wild choices
• [89:23] Most satisfying twist: The many layers of deception and frame-ups in Following
• [94:57] A (not so) horny film—the “underwear” moment
• [96:25] Alex Haw (Cobb in Following): why wasn’t he in more Nolan films?
• [99:07] Most “Nolan” elements—what he brings to these stories
• [101:03] Anticipation for Nolan’s Odyssey
• [104:09] End-of-episode reflections

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Takeaways for Nolan Fans & Newcomers

• Following is essential viewing to decode Nolan’s entire approach to story and style. It showcases nearly every Nolan trope, from objects-as-totems to twisty self-deceit to plot as puzzle box.
• Insomnia is a pivotal, under-rated Nolan film. It’s a bridge between his indie roots and Hollywood, with star turns from Pacino and Robin Williams (the latter especially hailed by hosts as a stealth MVP).
• Both films reveal Nolan’s preoccupations: guilt, unreliable narration, psychological doubles (“measuring stick men”), plot-anchored structure, and audience immersion via confusion.
• Despite becoming known for blockbusters, Nolan’s technical and thematic fingerprints trace directly back to these formative projects.

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Looking Ahead

• Anticipation is high for Nolan’s The Odyssey—how will he adapt a mythic “get home” tale with his signature structure, psychology, and technological bravura?
• Will the “great men” theme, guilt, and the “structure as meaning” techniques found in these early films return for his most ambitious project yet?
• Inserted sidebar: an animated musical adaptation of The Odyssey is also coming—possibly the closest we’ll ever get to a Nolan musical.

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“You can’t reason with the sun. Trust us, we’ve tried.”
— House of R, sign-off, [106:13]

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Episode summary by House of R Deep Dive.

Transcript

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Hello. Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson, that's Mallory Rubin and we're here today to talk to you about one Mr. Christopher, not sir Christopher Nolan actually. Hello.

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Wow.

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How are you doing?

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I mean I love that I got a little accent work from you this early.

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Oh yeah.

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What a treat on a Friday morning.

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It's quite an accent heavy time we're going to have here today.

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Sure is.

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We are talking about two Christopher Nolan films as a double feature on the podcast we're doing following, which is his sort of first film and then Insomnia.

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Yes.

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Are all of these movies being done out of order? Yes. Do I have a few regrets about that? Somewhat. But is it right in keeping with Christopher Nolan style? It is so just such an easy

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way for us to just say it was always the intention because he is a non linear storyteller.

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He loves a non linear story and we'll discuss that a lot when we get to following right after this.

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This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Calling all trainers Pokemon is celebrating 30 years and the party is at Target.

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That's right. Pokemon and Target are launching a limited time collection designed for trainers across every era of fandom.

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We're talking over a hundred exclusive pieces you won't find anywhere else. Shirts, water bottles and more.

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The first drop appears in stores May

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2 and online May 3 before the collection evolves with the second drop on June 6.

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Explore [e-mail]. Quick zippy programming reminders. Yeah, so we are covering Daredevil Week to week until the finale. So we will be back with another Daredevil episode next week. You will not be here. Alas, I will cry. But one Mr. Robert Mahoney will be in your place.

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Incredible.

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So we will do our best. It's. It's not the same but we will do our best.

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I mean people thought it was exciting when Jessica Jones showed up, but a Rob Mahoney appearance?

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Rob Mahoney.

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Sheesh.

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House of the Dragon we think we are hoping against hope there will be a trailer drop this weekend because as you sleuthed out, a couple of the actors will be at a con this weekend. So we think big panel. We're getting a season three trailer.

[B]

If we get it, at a minimum, we get a date for the season. We can start our countdown.

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Would be nice.

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Be great.

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It's 44 days until the vampire list dies. Also, did you see the Cobb Van thing? No. So some fans.

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Is there a countdown clock out in the world? Has it broken? Contain on beyond House of R Some

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folks from Star Wars Explained I think is the name of the account encountered Jon Favreau. Cause you know he's on the, he's on the circuit already for Mando Grogu and they're like is Cobb Vanth alive? And he's like oh yeah, he's out there, he's okay. And they're like great, then where is he? Can we see him again? So I got tagged in that video a lot. So thanks, thanks for doing that work. Star Wars Explained. We appreciate you. As we mentioned Daredevil, House of the Dragon. Speaking of Star Wars Mall, we will be doing a finale episode for the mall animated series.

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I can't wait.

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You're really gonna wanna tune in. I like don't wanna over promise and under deliver but you're gonna wanna tune in.

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And also we should just say if anyone has not checked out the show

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yet, it's really good.

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Really genuinely. We recommend you catch up before the finale. First of all, it's a zippy watch. Brief episodes. It's like each one is somewhere between what, 22 and 32 minutes. But that includes the credits and stuff. You can easily catch up and be ready to watch the finale live. And it's been a blast. It's been a blast. A wonderful character, a very interesting story. Check it out and join us for the finale.

[A]

Love it. How can folks keep track of all the things that we got going on?

[B]

Easy. Follow the pod. That's it. Follow House of R. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify. Incredible stuff. Follow the Ringoverse YouTube channel and follow the new House of R social handles. We have a House of our Instagram and a House of R TikTok House of our pot.

[A]

Email us hobbits and dragons gmail.com. hopefully the Dragons will be here soon. We can only hope.

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Yeah.

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Hobbies at the end of the year,

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a lot of Hobbit news out in the world as well.

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Something to think about.

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All right, exciting.

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Spoiler warning for following and Insomnia. Two movies that are quite old but do have twists and turns to them. So do they. If you have not seen them, I really recommend you go watch them. Following is a really quick watch. Like what, 90 minutes or something like that. Less. Less than an hour and eight minutes. Okay. Really short. And Insomnia's got Al Pacino in it, so what more could you want from life? But we will be spoiling all the twists and turns. So that's. And actually, I think what I'm going to do, which we haven't been doing, is I might do like a little brief recap before we talk about it, because I don't think a ton of people have seen following and maybe it's been a while since you've seen Insomnia, so if you didn't watch them or rewatch them. But following is just on Tubi. That's where I watched it. So enjoy it. I don't always plug to be when I can, I will. It's very ringer core. Okay, sure is. And why are we doing this Nolan series if this is the first year joining us for a Nolan movie experience? It's because, a, there were a couple of anniversaries last year, so we thought it would be fun. And then B, the Odyssey is this year, so we thought we'd just do it all. It's a very malar rubin thing to do. Watch a couple Nolan movies and be like, you know what? I got to watch them all.

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Do them all.

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So that's what we're doing. We've got a couple left. Tenant.

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That's right.

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And a few Batman.

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Boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Oppenheimer.

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Oh, and Oppenheimer. The Oscar one.

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That one.

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The most recent one.

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So, yeah, we head into this podcast with six remaining, but we exit this

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podcast with four remaining July 17th.

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Look at that.

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Knocked it out. July 17th is when the Odyssey is coming. And we'll talk about that at the end of I can't wait to see that movie. I know, boy. So we're going to do sort of like quick snapshot. We're going to do following first. Then we're going to do Insomnia. Then we're going to do our categories, which will. Both films are. Are qualified. Eligible is the word I wanted. Eligible for those categories.

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Qualify also. Totally fine. It did. It did. It worked.

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All right, so let's start with the following. Okay. Directed by Christopher Nolan.

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Yes.

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Screenplay by Christopher Nolan. April 24, 1998 is when it premiered at the San Francisco International Film Festival. Baby. I used to volunteer for that festival. It's a very cool one at the theater in San Francisco. I've seen some really great movies there. So that's a really fun origin story for Christopher Nolan. Sort of like US Tour. And he talked a lot about how he made this film in the uk but there was no. There's no market available for movies made for no budget in the UK that just wasn't really a thing. So though they made this in the uk, he's like, we had to go to the US in order to show it. And at that time, you know, Clerks or El Mariachi, there were, like, a bunch of movies out in the world that had been made for $0 that he was like, you can get those out at the festival circuit, but only in the US So this is sort of the origin story of Nolan becoming like, a very British sensibility filmmaker, but also kind of an American filmmaker at the same time.

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This is one of the most British movies, too.

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Oh, I agree.

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You're like, we are in London.

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Absolutely. Budget, $6,000.

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That is just remarkable.

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It looks really good, actually, for $6. And we'll talk about some of the sort of budgetary tricks and tips that he has for making this movie. Box office, $126,000. Pretty decent return on investment, I guess.

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Yeah.

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And several film festival awards. And what he talked. He's talked about how he coincidentally, while he was editing this film, he wrote the screenplay for Memento. He was doing those at the same time.

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Abso. And I would say, quite apparent, actually.

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He didn't do it intentionally, like, with this in mind. But what he said is he was like, it's not a bad thing to do, because when I was on the festival circuit with this movie as a sort of calling card, the question people want to ask you always is, what are you going to do next? And I was like, bam, here's my script for Memento. So he was like, it was just. It was a pure happy accident happenstance. Overachiever. Writing one masterpiece while editing another. But he had his answer ready and it helped, I think. Grease the wheels for what happened with Memento. You can listen to that podcast, which we did quite recently. Okay. So general discussion. Something we want to do. We're not going to go in depth of following. Let's. I keep calling it the following. It's just following. Let's say briefly what following is, if folks haven't seen it, is a black and white, shortish but long ish feature film.

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Yep.

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About a young man, a hapless unemployed writer.

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Yes.

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Who to pass the time, starts following people.

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Yes. To learn about them.

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To learn about them. Maybe we'll help his craft. Something like that. And then he gets sucked into a scheme where there is a femme fatale, there's a cool guy in a suit teaching him how to follow people, how to B and E and all this other stuff.

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It is told.

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Correct me, stop me if you've heard this before. Non linearly. Right. We're hopping all like even more so than I think any of his other movies. We are hopping around in time. It is a noir sort of framework and Nolan has talked about the fact that he was like I was quite young and unexperienced and I didn't think that any of my experiences in the world would be interesting to people. He's like. So I feel like I found via the noir genre, found a way to smuggle a story of basically like an insecure writer, which Nolan sort of saw himself as into a larger, more exciting genre tale. You know, he's like the noir genre has always worked as a way to take a psychological study and turn it into something more like action adventure based. So that is what he is doing here. But something did anything else, I mean. And then things go poorly for our happiness here.

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Yeah. We got a Batman logo.

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There is a Batman logo.

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Just an incredible little like Easter egg. Was it all here? Just.

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Just a Leo. Not in Inception, but pointing meme. Exactly. Talk about non linear storytelling.

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My. I had not seen this movie. This was the only Nolan I had seen insomnia, but I had not seen it in quite a while. I had not seen following. So in some ways I felt like I had because as you're about to outline, it is in a really kind of remarkable way a template for the rest of the filmography to come. And just how Christopher Nolan thinks about storytelling and what is interesting to him in terms of the form and the craft.

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It's all there.

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It's amazing. And then there was it reminded me a little bit of. Remember. I don't. Maybe they still make these. I don't know. When we were kids, remember, you got those little, like, dehydrated, tiny, little, like dinosaurs, and you would put them in water and then they would, like. That's what following is.

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It's a little desiccated dinosaur that later will become Inception or Interstellar.

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And then this is gonna be the other movies. Like, it really is kind of amazing. And it's very, like, lovely in terms of the visual style. We're gonna talk about some of the performers and the impression that they left on us. I also love. And this is something else that we have tracked across the films, but there is such a, like, meta. The movie maker storyteller, Inception, putting himself into the story aspects of, like, this film. For Nolan, why is he interested in filmmaking? Like, this idea of how, you know, the young man, Bill or Dan, Danny, we'll call him, many things over the course of the film because he goes by multiple names in the film. But this idea of, like, I am interested in people, and so I look at what they do and I think about their lives and I inhabit. I do what I do writing, but also following so that I can inhabit a new skin. And, like, you feel that every time Christopher Nolan makes one of these movies. So that was just so fascinating. And I really thought this was excellent. So, obviously it's like, a helpful thing to just understand how he has approached his work from the word go. But I think people just really enjoy it.

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I would say that, like, I completely agree with you. I actually think this might be the most important Nolan film to watch, to understand his whole thing.

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Yeah.

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At the end of the day, but some of these sort of. We made this for $6,000. Necessity, mother of invention. Details of this film. It's black and white, and so it's quite striking. But the reason it's black and white is because it's much further, faster and cheaper to light and set up in black and white so you don't have to worry about lighting a color scene, you know. So that's why they did that. Basically, they made this film over a number of weekends. He was like. We had. We had in the past made some short films where we just got all of our friends together on a weekend. And the way we approached this was as if we made several short films over several weekends and sort of cobbled it together into this final product. He. He wrote the script out linearly and then he chopped it back up into this nonlinear story and He. It was such a pain in the ass. He was like, I had to go back and rewrite to make sure that you could at least somewhat follow what was going on, that he never did it that way again. That ever after, when he does Memento or anything else is told out of order. He wrote it that way, out of order. And so this was like him trying something, saying, well, that didn't work, or that caused me a lot of extra work. But basically they filmed it over several weekends. He was at the time working in sort of corporate videography. And so he learned how to set up and take down, you know, lighting and cameras really quickly. And so he's just like, we worked as quickly as possible. We got a bunch of mates together to do this. Essentially, the black and white is to save us time and money. The something on this list that I'm about to read that I put together of, like, all the things that are here that are then present in other Nolan films. One of them was sort of this idea of, like, objects and totems.

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Yes.

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Because there are these, like, curio boxes, essentially, that we find out that every

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man has a box which is a lie.

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But, like, you know, this sort of mystery box of objects that one of our main characters puts together and plants in these various apartments. And so you get these, what are. What are called insert shots of just sort of a seahorse or an earring or whatever the case may be. And Nolan has talked about that's a very cheap way to make your film look beautiful because you can quickly light and film sort of like an object insert shot, and it sort of heightens the value. But if you think about that idea of, like, fascination with objects and you take it over to Inception or a number of other things.

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Yeah, the totems. Yeah.

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Is like a wild. Again, this is the origin here is the budget and trying to make it look nice. Or he talks about this idea of dry running a scene which I had never heard of before, but basically because he was like, it's so hard in these made for $6,000 films to get the sound to work. And we'll talk about sound when we talk about Tenet. Obviously one of your favorite things to talk about. But it's so hard to get the sound to sound right because the cameras are so loud or you can't control the environment that you're in and all this sort of stuff like that. And he was like, so we would film the scene.

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Yeah.

[A]

And then we would dry run it, which means run the scene without the camera. Rolling. And use that audio without the sound of the camera in the scene. And he's like, we did that for the movies that we shot. We did that for the Batman movies. We ran it with IMAX cameras that are so loud. And then we would dry run it again without the cameras rolling and use that audio for the final cut. I was like, that's a trick he learned on his student film. He then used for Batman. This isn't technically a student film, but it essentially is. And then what was the other one? Oh, intercutting. Intercutting, which he does in a lot of his films, which is like you're watching a scene and we cut to action happening elsewhere or a memory or something like that. He says it's a cheap and easy way to give you coverage for when you need a cut in a scene so you don't have to do set the camera up in a ton of places or do a ton of shots. You can shoot your back and forth conversation of two men talking in a room and cut to someone running in the street. Again, this non linear sort of what is happening over here. And it's a way to give you coverage, like on an edit that you need to make a cheap and easy way to do that. And he's like. And then I just kept doing this like, intercutting, cross cutting technique in a lot of my movies. And so it's just like fascinating, you know, on the cheap. Filmmaking becomes his stylistic hallmark going forward.

[B]

And like, it's been such a. I love learning all of that about these kind of like origin days and the formative days. Right. And how those lessons really stuck. But one of the fun things about him as a filmmaker and studying his work across the years is how often something about the style and the form of the craft is directly connected to something inside of the story, whether it's the plot or the theme. Like, those things so often feel really intimately entwined. And that's part of why people have such a deep connection to his movies. Like, we've talked about this across so many of the films. And, you know, thinking about the kind of like camera pants in this film or the way that the set is used, there are so many little moments where that is directly then deployed in the story in ways both subtle or overt. You know, you have something like the roof sequence and Bill kind of moving his way through the laundry, around the edge and what's out of view. And we kind of know it's. And there's cop, right? And like there's something so Menacing about just the use of angles and what they can hide or how is this fire escape gonna be used, right? This skinny ladder, like, things like that. So much of it is about what might be on the top of the door frame or under a floor mat, right? The way that every object, some of which has some sort of filming utility, like, where are the characters gonna stand in front of this door? When all I am doing is ultimately filming a door. And trying to dramatically compelling becomes such an active engine of the story where it's like I planted the seed about how people actually do put the keys under the mat. And then this fucker bought it so fully that he went out and got a new format. You know, all of those little things are so great. And like, you know, the totems and these objects like to see here in this movie, this idea of the box and what do these objects reveal about what you think is important? And Cobb telling Bill in the early stretches of the film when he's recruiting him, but really, as we learn, like, something else. Right. Needs to set him up to be the decoy. Like the idea that, well, yeah, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to fence some of this stuff. And, like, some of it's about the money, but I don't even make all my money this way. And obviously we will learn across the story that there's a whole other thing going on with Cobb. But even the hook is like, it's about what you can learn about people and also that they want you to see it. Like the way that the idea of the object, what is hidden, what is out in people, want you to know something about who they are through the things that they possess. Like, that's such an active story beat here in terms of just like.

[A]

And that's so Inception and it's so Prestige. I was thinking about the Prestige a lot. When Cobb is talking about, like, sort of. He's like using hand gestures to explain sort of like the boxes and the human nature and stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm watching Michael Caine explain what the Turn and the Prestige is. You know, like, there's just all these fingerprints of future movies inside of this. So again, do I kind of wish we had watched all of these in order? So when we talked Prestige or Inception, I could have talked about following maybe, but that's not what we did. I love everything you just said. I thought that was so brilliant. Let's. Let's run through some of these. Not every single, not a comprehensive list, but one I put together. Maybe you have some additions here. So crime heist, right? Something he loves. Man's inability to know himself.

[B]

Crucial.

[A]

Very important.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Curios and objects and totems and boxes, mirrors and foils and duality. What happens to our guy Bill, is eventually he makes himself over to look like Cobb. He cuts his hair, he gets a nice suit, all this sort of stuff like that. So this idea of. We talked about this, about, like, twinning or foils is something that he is constantly interested. Whether it's like the Joker and Batman or it's like Christian Bail, Hugh Jackman and the Prestige or whatever the case may be. There is often sort of this, you know, or Harvey Dent or whatever. You know, there's this duality of man or the way in which you are reflected elsewhere. Personal style. This like Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Inspo. Inspired by the French New Wave. This sort of like, very. Like the way that Cobb. And by the way, there's a man named Cobb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is Leonardo DiCaprio's character's name in Inception, but there's a man named Cobb in this movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The way he's dressed and. And just like, impeccably styled is something that, you know, will return to an Inception. You know, you can think about, like, Joseph Gordon Levin and his suits or, you know, Cobb and his suits and stuff like that. It also made me think of Chris Nolan, who developed this, like, very distinctive personal style. When you look at what Chris Nolan looked like when he made this movie, it's much closer to the way that Bill looks like at the beginning of his journey, which is just sort of like a bit scraggly and, you know, and then, like, Nolan just turns into this, like, crisp Oxford, you know, lush overcoat, sort of wearing kind of guy, this uniform that he create for himself. A man named Cobb. Stop. You've heard this before. A dead woman.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Stories told nonlinearly. Ticking on the score. This score is, like, very cool and distinctive and once again, I think, often deployed to cover their sound issues. But there's this sort of like, whistling, shrieking sound on the score. And then also like the sound of a clock sort of taking you through twist within twists.

[B]

Oh, yeah, boy.

[A]

Explaining the world and how the human mind works and. And the noir element. So would you. So something we're gonna talk about when we talk about insomnia, but I'm curious if you think this theme is here. I think this idea of the most important thing inside of a Nolan story. Chris identified this theme when we were talking about Dunkirk of someone just trying to get home, which I think you can apply to so many stories. And I think you can apply to Insomnia, which we'll talk about in a second. I don't know that I would really. I struggle to quite find it here, but I think there's sort of psychological ways in which you could apply that here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think maybe even more importantly, Nolan really loves to put the viewer in with a protagonist who doesn't know what the fuck is going on. I would say Inception is an exception there, because DiCaprio is our protagonist, but the Ariadne character is supposed to be the, like, audience insert, who's, like, floundering and doesn't have all the information, but she's less of a point of view. But when you think about we're with Leonard trying to figure out what's going on in Memento, or, you know, we're with Makane. Makane doesn't have all the information for what's going on in his journey. Like, it's very important that we feel drawn in and in the same sort of confused, hapless. I mean, certainly when we get to Tenet Boat as our protagonist. So when the mystery is swirling around, we're not frustrated that we're so far behind where the main character. The main character is also being.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

Actively deceived, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Same with the Prestige. You know, like we are with these two men as they are constantly being fooled by each other. Yes. And so I think that's such a key element to what's going on here. And with Dunkirk, it's a little less active, like, twisty store making. But. But you're with these soldiers on the beach who are. Or in the air who are bewildered and don't have all the information and are just sort of like, can't see the larger picture of how do we get out of here? So I think that's like, a very clever way that Nolan makes the intentionally mysterious and challenging sort of twisty storytelling not make the audience feel frustrated or dumb, that they're not quite in on

[B]

it and what's going on. Yeah. And we talked about that a lot with Memento. The invitation right away and the understanding that you are meant to be confused then is like a. It's an invitation to feel comfortable in that confusion. Yeah. It's so neat to see how many of these elements are present here as this. Like this. This kind of core germ of DNA. I think the other, like, the other two things that feel present here, that continue to be present. And they're related to things we already went through. But like the idea of rules. Yeah, the idea of, like, you know, never follow the same person twice. That was the one I broke first. Like, there are rules and you are meant to understand them. And then we as the audience are meant to understand that there will be a violation of those rules, either because somebody has been led actively into violating them or from some sort of error or pull on your conscience, whatever the case may be, to give us that structure so that we understand the structure will be violated. Yeah. And then, you know, and this is very connected to the. Like, can, you know, your own mind? Like all of the things that connect to the mind, Right. The heists, the crimes, the very much literalized in this film. But, like, there's always the aspect of like the crime against your mind too. So the violation of the mind. Right. And the violation of the question about the raising. Chris's observation and that question about. Is every story in some way back ending Home? Like, this feels like the one. I agree with what you said. Like, the different way to frame it and think about it and home in a different way. This is also, I think, the one that is kind of like maybe most about trying to leave home. Like trying to break out of this place that you feel stuck and limited. And like, the way that part of how Cobb really gets in Bill's head and fucks with him is like, this guy, well, he might want to be a writer, he might think he's a writer, but that's not the same thing as being a writer, you know. And like, oh, maybe he's a student and like, oh, the conversation about the tapes and the musical tastes like. Like it's so.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, again, if you haven't seen following, basically what happens is that Bill, our hapless writer, in an attempt to sort of like prove something or whatever to Cobb, the more polished criminal he encounters, has them break and enter into his own apartment. Right.

[B]

Which knew he would.

[A]

Cobb already knew that. And so Cobb is walking around his apartment and just like she shit talking his music or the decor or his typewriter. You know, if you were a real writer, you'd have a word processor. He's not a real writer. You know, just like basically like nagging Bill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While Bill is sort of like trying to like, show off his place and be like, isn't this interesting? And he's like, pretty sad, pathetic. Whoever lives here is pretty pathetic. It's like, it's very funny.

[B]

Yeah, it is quite a comical scene. And like the, you know, the fact that when Bill, Danny, inhabiting the character of Danny at this point, asks the blonde because they have broken into her place, we get many sequences across the film where we see exactly how that played out. And then what we are building toward, which is understanding that Cobb and the blonde are in cahoots, and then actually the layer beyond that, which is that she's not even not in on and is in fact one of the targets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very upsetting. The like moment where Bill slash Dani asks the blonde what did it feel like being broken into? And her response is, most people ask, what did they take? Yeah, you know, and I thought that was. So that was the movie in miniature. But also like Nolan's examination of human nature in miniature. Right. I'm curious about the way people feel. I'm a writer. Gosh.

[A]

Gosh.

[B]

Like her perfect.

[A]

Her disdain inside of her delivery of

[B]

gosh is really, really good.

[A]

Two final things that I want to mention that Nolan has talked about in terms of that idea. He was. He's. He talked a lot about inside of this film in. In years later when he was asked about it, about. Yes. Wanting the audience to. Wanting to trust the audience, that they will go along with a memento style story or a prestige style story where you are just kind of chasing the plot as it's being told out of order. That there's something that anchors you. We've talked constantly about these anchors in Inception. It's like the different. It's raining on this level. The light is warm on this level. Or there's no gravity on this level. You know, like what. Or. And the snowing on this level, like, what is there to anchor you so you don't feel at sea in Dunkirk? You know, like what. What is there to keep you on solid ground? And he said inside of this film, something that he did is we open in the police station with our main character, our hapless main character telling the story. As you mentioned, like, the rule is this. That's the first rule I broke. Right.

[B]

He started confess.

[A]

Right. The camera's very steady in that sequence. It's like a. It's a dolly. It's a dolly shot. It's very, like, polished. Dalin Nolan, his uncle is there, who I had a real moment. I just forgot that that was their uncle. And I was like, wow, they got this guy who's in a bunch of their films in this movie. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's their uncle. But he lends this because he's a. He was. He's not like a huge actor, but he was an experienced actor. So Chris Nolan was able to call his uncle John Nolan, who's in the Batman films and stuff like that, in for this police interrogation scene. And so you get a polished performer. Yes, a very contained environment where your camera can be, like, later on the street. We're handheld. A lot of handheld camera, very steady camera work. The sound on that scene is better than the sound in the rest of the movie because they could control that environment. So he's like, when you go in and watch a film like this at a festival, if the first few minutes the camera looks good and the sound looks good, you are drawn into the story. And then you can forgive how shaky and shitty the camera work looks later and how bad the sound is later. He's like, so all of that is there to sort of suck you in and establish in a world, and also in the world of especially noir storytelling, give you, the audience, a guarantee that we will circle back to this police station and you will know by the end of the movie, you will get some sort of resolution on all of these strands of the plot. Because we started in this police station, and we will come back and end in this police station. So all of that is meant to dupe people into. Think they're, like, watching a movie that's a bit more polished than it actually is and give the audience an anchor as they sort of get tossed about by the waves of the story to come. And then the last budgetary thing that I thought was so funny is he's like. I always hated how in student films, he's like, the guns always look stupid. You could never get the right replica. You could never get it to fire. Right? Blah, blah. He's like, so we just made it a hammer. He was like, we couldn't do guns, so we just made the weapon a hammer. We could make a rubber hammer, and that's just easy and fine. And I was like.

[B]

And then it ends up making sense for the story. Cause it's like you can use it as a crowbar to break in. And you can put it in your, you know, your waistband, and of course it's okay. Well, the hammer was used in this other crime that the blonde witnessed. And then Bill, as Danny, will use it when he's stealing the money from the safe. And then it will have the blood on it that he has admitted to using. And then it will have the blonde's blood on it from what Cobb does. And he will have implicated himself without meaning to. Really kind of amazing how those puzzle pieces all end up fitting together and the like promise of certain scenes. The combination of the mooring orienting thing that you just described with the police station. But then we have the chaos around it of using that technique in other ways. Like there are so many glimpses of future states all in another time. The bruising and the.

[A]

Yeah, that's very Memento. Right. Like, how did he get the bruising on his face to orient you? When does he cut his hair? When does he start wearing a suit? When did the. When did the wooden drawing model, little figurine get broken? You know, the underwear, all of that stuff. Yeah, really good. Anything else you want to say about following before we hop over to Insomnia? Okay. Insomnia. This is, you know, it goes following Memento, then Insomnia. And Insomnia is his first big budget studio film. And he goes from Memento.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To a fucking Al Pacino movie.

[B]

Wild.

[A]

And this is a real test for Christopher Nolan. Like, as a director, he makes following Memento and then he makes a big budget shot in a challenging environment. Al Pacino movie. This is an adaptation of a Norwegian film, so. Directed by Christopher Nolan, screenplay by Hilary Seitz, based on the Norwegian film Insomnia by Nicola for Binius and Eric Schuldberg. That's my guess. And it's the only. Only Nolan film to not have been at least co written by Christopher Nolan. And I think it shows. Yeah, Nolan wanted to write this, allegedly. Apocryphally, Nolan wanted to write the screenplay, but Warner Brothers said no. But he did do a pretty significant rewrite on Seiss's original script. But I think as much as I do like this film, I think it lacks a certain something. And again, we talked about this with Memento, where I was like, is Memento Christopher Nolan film? In a way, but it's also him chasing Fincher, you know, and following is him like chasing Kevin Smith and Tarantino and the French New Wave and stuff like that. And I think we're just. And Insomnia is an adaptation of an existent Norwegian film that he quite liked. And he was like, this is an interesting thing to do, but ironically, I don't think it's till we're like in Batman, which is, you know, is really when like a Nolan film starts. Starts to take shape. Even though that's again, him playing inside of someone else's frame, framework and world. Yeah. US wide release May 24, 2002 budget 46 million. That's versus mementos. 5 to 9 million budget box office domestic 113.8 million. That's very good. Yeah, Return on that.

[B]

So, I mean, Al Pacino and Robin Williams and Hillary Swank.

[A]

I mean, and quite a cast. Some snow. I'm Maura Tierney. I have a lot to say about Maura.

[B]

Tyranny.

[A]

Okay. Where Were you in 2002? Ellen from the Affair. Do you remember when you, like, watched this film? Was it in 2002? Was it later? What do you remember?

[B]

I'm not sure.

[A]

I don't remember when I watched this film.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know when I saw this for the first time, though. I'm pretty sure that my mom showed this to me because she was just such a huge Pacino and Robin Williams fan. So I think I saw this movie before I had really. I mean, I definitely saw this movie before I had any relationship to Christopher Nolan's work. I can't tell you the exact year. It was probably shortly after it came out, though. So I would have been in, like, probably late high school, most likely when I saw this for the first time. I think undeniably, I actually quite like this movie. I think it's really good in a very satisfying, propulsive watch on the mystery front and the thriller front and also a mind fuck. I think that the. Not his script point. It is undeniably the least Nolan y movie in his filmography. I think, like, by a comfortable margin. I don't. Honestly don't even know what else anyone can make the case for on that front. But even still, there are all of these Nolan hallmarks and Nolan touches. You know, it is very much about the mind, sleep, consciousness, perception. You know, most. Most crucially of all. And again, even stylistically, there are. While we move linear in a linear capacity through the unfolding contemporary plot that is happening up in Alaska, we're still getting these glimpses. We're getting these little. Oh, drops of blood.

[A]

The.

[B]

Almost like your eye, like your pupil dilating in your eye, like, version of the blood on the fibers, you know, bloomin.

[A]

And we don't find out until much later what that is. Well, it's like the opening credit images and then we see it a bunch and then we find out right at the.

[B]

Towards the end. So that's from like, the case that we will learn about and the choices that Dormer made. But then the things that start happening in the flow of the story also resurface in that way. We keep flashing to Hap's dead, dying face. Right. So there are still These little glimpses out of order and these little interstitials and the use of the quick cuts and the edits and the interstitials to kind of present that confusion, baby, haziness, you know, so all of that is

[A]

still here and like the haziness of the lack of sleep, the foggy conditions in sort of this big shootout scene. And I think what you. The Nolan of it all, you can find most in the adaptive changes from the Norwegian version. So the Norwegian version, which was a like a. A very well regarded sort of like huge Norwegian film. Stellan Skarsgrd in the Al Pacino role, love it. His character is like much more of a scumbag. The Stellan version of the character, he's like a bit of a sex pest. Accost like a couple women inside of the film. There's less ambiguity. I think the most Nolan element in the sort of can you know, your own mind aspect is Pacino's character inside of this version is like, I don't know if I meant to shoot him or not. I couldn't see him. But when I came up to him, he was afraid of me. And you know, like that. That scene.

[B]

And he thought I meant to. So, like, maybe I did.

[A]

And so that scene is like so crucial to what makes this different from. In the Norwegian version is just like, it's a clear accident. But the similar thing happens in that, like in the follow up. The actual suspect, a crime writer, has something on him. He gives him the whole we're not so different, you and I pitch, which is very present here with Robin Williams and Al Pacino, a very like, Joker, Bruce Wayne dynamic. There's even like similar blocking in their confrontation on the ferry. Like, there's some great videos online where you can watch people like, have put together the footage of Pacino and Robin Williams on the ferry and Christian Bale and Heath Ledger in the interrogation room. And the Dark Knight. There's a lot of the Dark Knight inside of this movie. This is one we haven't done yet. So I'm excited to watch that one and think about insomnia a lot. But that's an adaptive change that I think really underlines what Nolan is interested in. In that sort of like, I don't know, I can't know my own mind. I don't know myself. And then the ending is very significantly different in the Norwegian version. You know, he gets his man. He doesn't die. The young female cop does put the bullet casing on the table to say, like, I know what you did, but she doesn't really say anything to him about it. And then he just sort of drives home and it's this like, he's a bad. You know, Stella's version is like a bad dude. He got away with it and, like. But, like, what will that mean for his future? The end of that movie is very spooky. It's sort of like the. The. The color sort of starts to fade to black, but his eyes are still, like, sort of white and bright in this very, like, insomnia, but, like, spooky way. In. In Nolan's version, Pacino dies. And he dies in this conversation with Hilary Swank's character, where. Which again, is very. The Dark Knight, which is just sort of like. She's like, I'll basically cover this up for you. Right. And he's like, no, hold on to your honor. Right. So this very, like, sort of like what the city needs, you know, what are the choices make? What are the stories we tell? And it's very, you know, hope core, actually, for, like, Pacino, who has done well, wrong for the right reason in the past. You know, in. In the Norwegian version, this character slept with a witness. There's no sort of, like, moral ambiguity or question to that. He, like, did something transgressive. Yeah. In this version of the story, Pacino's character falsified evidence to capture someone that he is very sure did something absolutely horrendous. So for the greater idea of justice, he did something illegal and dicey. And so. And this question, his question of trying to conceal what he did is not just an act of self preservation because there's this added moral murkiness of if. If internal investigation takes me down, every person I ever put away goes back on the street. So it's not. There's this, like. It's not just self motivated. There's this, like, larger conscience to it. So this idea of a hope core kind of ending is really crucial to Nolan, which is so interesting because a lot of his stories end despite all the twists and turns, I would say, other than Memento, despite all the twists and turns, there's usually some sort of, like, clear resolution. The good guys usually win to a certain degree. And there's just sort of like, Cobb gets to go home, you know, like the Dunkirk boys get to go home. Like, this happens. So there's this idea of, like, redemption arc. Don't lose your way. And whether that's to, like. I think it's to. Part of Nolan's endeavor is to tell these interesting, complicated Twisty stories that are challenging. Ish, but also not so challenging that a general audience can't enjoy it. Not morally challenging to you. Doesn't leave like the original Norwegian version leaves you this really un, unsettled, like, creepy feeling. And I don't think that insomnia leaves you with that. That feeling. So he wants audiences to go home feeling like they've solved a puzzle, they've had a good time. And like, Matthew McConaughey got reunited with his daughter, you know, and so there's this line from this cob line from Inception that I think is also like a key thesis statement for what Nolan does in his sort of more Hollywood era of his career, which is positive emotion trumps negative emotion every time. We all yearn for reconciliation, for catharsis. That feels to me to be a Nolan idea of what people want from a story. You want to be fooled, but you want catharsis and reconciliation. You want to go home uplifted. He wants to make something entertaining that is slightly intellectual but not so intellectual that you feel like you're struggling and has done a bang up job of it in his career. But this is like, it's all here in this adaptive choice he makes in the ending of Insomnia to just be like, we're not gonna make you go home and feel creepy about what you just watched. We're gonna give you a more conventional crime thriller ending to this story. And I think that's, like, very fascinating.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's kind of a magic trick to take stories that are so deeply internal and introspective and allow those, like, lessons and moral insights to permeate outward into the wider world. And I think it's like, you know, it is the fact that so many of these stories are capers or thrillers and that in some sense somebody is doing something that is wrong or outside of the bounds of, like, social or legal norms and the structures of society. Like, to be able to then ensure that the audience is in the position of saying, I am rooting for that person at the siding with them, even though they operated in a capacity that maybe wasn't as neat and tidy as my feeling about it is pretty incredible. To be able to pull off it feels like another kind of meta aspect of the way that his movies really mirror the way that he thinks about life. And like, I think that the Ellie Dormer ending and that change that you're identifying, like, you know, she is. He's dying. So, like, that's a bad outcome. But he Got the guy who he knows did it, and she has absolved him. And then he has, like, said to her, don't let your. Don't go down this path. So it's like. It's messy in some ways, but I agree with you that there is such

[A]

a clarity he's dying because, like, there's a consequence for what he did. So he's dying, and he gets to die like a hero.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, you know, the fact that, like, in theory, in terms of the plot engine, certainly in the event, you know, the conversation, like the dinner at the Lodge between him and his partner Hap and what. Hap's like, gonna cut a deal, man. You know, in the call, like, the Internal affairs guy who's like, you're gonna fuck up.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Even the. The way that the. The great insult that Dormer, that Pacino levies against Finch is like, you know, he's basically like, I've been interested in cops since I was 7 and, you know, my grandma, and that's why I wanted to write these crime fiction. And he's like, you would have done great in Internal Affairs. It's like the actual threat of Internal affairs crushing down on him is nothing ultimately. It moves the story. It's a catalyst for some exciting events, but it's nothing compared to that guilt and that shame that is internal. And the questioning, because I love. It's such a crucial little thing we do get when he is bearing his soul. We have a couple kind of confessional moments, Right? There's a lot of confessions between Dormer and Finch, which is, of course, very interesting as a dynamic and a choice. You know, the way that Finch is like, we're partners. Even when Dormer goes back to the lodge and Martineau's like, you're a new partner. Said he. And you're like, what? And then you sort of realize, oh, this is, like, what he's gonna call himself. We're in this together. Right? Then he has the. Dormer has the confession to the Mara Tyranny character. And then, of course, with Ellie.

[A]

Can we call that a character?

[B]

I like that. She's like, well, you know, you either were born here or you came here to get away from something, and I wasn't born here. It's like spinoff when. But he says, I knew even then, like, it was the right thing to do, and I'm glad I did it. And that guy belonged in jail. And now I don't wanna make choices that change that outcome because that's where he deserves to rot. But I knew even then as I did it, that it was gonna get me. Like, I knew that it was gonna catch up to me, and it has. And so even if it is more like the pull on his conscience or his worry that this precocious cop who he has met, the Hilary Swank character who's like, I stud. Is that scar from. Holy shit. Like, I studied my thesis on you. And those are the papers that she ends up opening to piece together the. Oh, he carries a backup weapon. And it's satisfying how that all stitches

[A]

together her extremely unsubtle grope of his backup weapon.

[B]

Yeah. That's not how I would give someone a goodbye hug. Great. Little weird moment there. But, like, you know, this person who worships him and deifies him and then has to question him and feel the sense of betrayal not just in his actions and what it means, but, like, well, what does it mean if I put all my stock and sense of my profession and worldview into this person who I realize is not who I thought they were, and then to build pretty quickly toward the end and, like, I understand why you did the thing that you did. It's. That's like. There's a version of that that's, like, really messy and gnarly. Like, cops saying they can take justice into their own hand to get the audiences to the place where they're like, I'm glad that she gave him peace at the end is kind of an amazing thing to be able to pull off. It certainly helps you understand why Nolan is so interested in, like, the Mind Heist team and Inception, but also, just like, Batman is, like, the proto vigilante, you know, someone who is like, yeah, I will make the decision that is right. Because I can't trust society to do it the way that they're supposed to.

[A]

Is here it all is corruption inside of Gotham pd, You know, like, all of that's there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I will say for myself, I don't remember when I watched this movie. I have no memory of watching it, though I definitely did. But what I do remember it as being part of 2002, the year of, like, dark Robin Williams performances. One hour photo death to Smoochie. This movie, it was just a real, like, Robin Williams is trying something. And a lot of people hated that and felt really uncomfortable about that. And I actually think Robin Williams is, like, tremendous in this movie. And Nolan has talked about. And I don't know if this is just sort of like, you know, since Robin Williams has passed, like, you know, something like that, but, like, Nolan made a movie with Al Pacino, and he's like, Robin Williams is one of the best actors I worked with. He's like. He's just one of the best performers I've ever worked with. And I think what he's doing here is so human and complex and compelling and watchable. And there's just, like. There's that charm that. That Robin Williams is so easily capable of, but also just something really rotten underneath that and menacing that is also here. And this idea of the antagonist who thinks he knows you better than you know yourself, and often he does. He. He outwits you. He is two steps ahead of you. He knows what. He can predict your behavior, and so he's gonna do something that's gonna string you.

[B]

Then that makes. Oh, you forgot about the wild card.

[A]

Did he? You know, Right. The Joker and Batman or Cobb and Bill. You know, like what. You know, what is it about these. These two minds that are linked, that are inextricably entwined, et cetera. Anything else you want to talk about in terms of this movie? Oh, warning. If you decide you want to watch the Norwegian version does thedogdie.com in the American version, there's a dead dog in this movie, but he shoots a dead dog.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the Norwegian version, he kills the dog in order to get the same effect. So both horrible. I would say one is worse.

[B]

I mean, certainly killing a dog is appalling and very.

[A]

The dog is already a corpse.

[B]

I think the way that this. The dog corpse in this movie and the trash heap is deployed is quite disturbing.

[A]

It's disturbing. There's a lot of. And there's a lot of, like, violence, and much more so than in, like, Dunkirk, a little war movie. Anything else you want to say?

[B]

No. I mean, I agree that Robin Williams is amazing in this movie, and I think the fact that you have so much you bring to the film with your experience with him as a viewer, and, like, you're ready to laugh and be charmed. And then it's just so upsetting and Mooring to see him in a role like this. Very effective. So, yeah, I think they're both great.

[A]

I guess I'll end with this quote from Nolan about the theme of guilt, which we saw with Leonard, Memento, our guys in the Prestige, Cobb and his guilt over what happened with Mal and Inception, Bruce Oppenheimer, et cetera, et cetera. Nolan said to me, the film Insomnia is about responses to guilt, and you've got two characters who deal with guilt in opposite ways. In fact, that's what makes the relationship between them quite interesting. I think on a thematic level, the film says something about the role of guilt in defining morality or suggesting morality. Both characters, in some sense have transgressed to cause they're reacting to guilt so humans will err. But how do you feel on the other side of that error? Are you consumed by the guilt of what you did, or are you sort of trying to justify it, which is what Robin Williams character is doing in this movie. Deny it, reshape what happened in your own mind, et cetera, et cetera? Or are you unable to sleep, literally? Yep. Which is what happened to Pacino. Okay. Anything else you want to say?

[B]

I texted you this, but my only real knock on insomnia is this movie's version of the film doesn't work. The story doesn't work with the cell phone. Is the story doesn't work with the sleep mask.

[A]

This is going to come up in my category. The movie doesn't make sense.

[B]

He's fine.

[A]

But as I've talked about with you and with Rob, this is a theme of all of my podcasts. It's like, and I use a sleep mask every night, but once you start, you cannot. So that's just a cautionary tale.

[B]

I feel at some point he would have tried to put something over his face.

[A]

I have another note on this.

[B]

Taping up the sides of the shade with, like, tape that haphazardly pile stuff, pillows and furniture.

[A]

You noted this in the notes. But in going through Nolan talking about Insomnia, like, original interviews that he did when it came out, and people were talking about what kind of movies he wants to make in the future. And he said, quote, I'd like to do all kinds of movies, except maybe musicals or any other type of movie is of interest to me. So, Nolan, brutal for you. Anti musical. I hate that. And here's why I hate that. There's a real musicality to the way that he, like, tells his movies and edits his movies. And if you think about Joseph Gordon Levitt, like, rapesing around a hallway, like, that's halfway to a musical as it is. So, like, the devastation here is Christopher Nolan would make a great musical if he wanted to.

[B]

I'm saying this with confidence. He will change his mind about this. He's too interested in playing in different genres to never attempt it.

[A]

Which. Which existed musical would you most want to see?

[B]

Chris, you tell me. You're the one who's equipped, the one

[A]

that always comes up when, like, in. In my group chats. With friends who when we talk about like musicals we want to see made or when there's like someone who comes at like we were talking about Connor Story and Hudson Williams from the now Peabody award winning heated rivalry. Also shout out to andor for winning its second Peabody Award. Good job andor I love the Peabody Awards. They always get it right. Connor Story and Hudson Williams of heated rivalry fame. When we were sort of analyzing like whether they can sing, whether they can dance, you know, and they, they both can definitely dance. Can they sing? Unclear. We'll. We'll see. We were talking about Tom Holland and of course he can. He can dance, he can sing. He was on Broadway. And so like, what always comes up when we talk about this is Guys and Dolls. Like do we want to see Guys and dolls made by and I would love to see Men in suits. Christopher Nolan, this is for you. Moral ambiguity. Men in Suits tell give us Guys and Dolls directed by Christopher Nolan. I'd love to see it. All right, this is our 13 combination of superlatives and sundries and either following or insomnia is eligible in every single category. We had to cut some categories as we often do because they just simply do not apply to these movies. And we're talking about this episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Weathertech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weathertech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those Weathertech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling. Does this sound like you listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away? Trim 5 via gusokumab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy. And for adults with active psoriatic arthritis, serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim fire. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfire, including important safety information. Why so serious? Funniest line slash moment. What do you have?

[B]

So not the most, like, hysterically funny films, but I did have contenders for both movies, actually. My pick for insomnia was easy. The halibut stuff absolutely kills me. Pacino, who is hysterical in certain moments in this role, gets off the plane, this enthusiastic greeting from Ellie. And then Will Dormer looks at the sign and says, halibut fishing capital of the world. Okay.

[A]

It's just incredible.

[B]

And then they get to the menu and then they're at the, at the lodge, at the restaurant and it's like, well, we got the Halibut Calabresi. We got the Halibut Olympian. Keep going. Halibut Cajun style. Boy, I can't wait to see what they've got for dessert.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just kills me.

[A]

Very good. Mine are less like, laugh out loud. But I did like. So I would say for insomnia and then I want to hear your following nomination. But in the interrogation scene when Robin Williams character first comes in.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And he and Pacino have already had a conversation with Pacino's like, don't go heavy on this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let that fine Randy indicate. Jonathan Jackson of General Hospital fame. Really excited to see him. I love Lucky from General Hospital.

[B]

Let's talk about something that ports you back to like our youth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, he was one of the real, like, come on.

[A]

Yeah. Playing a real dirtbag here. But he's like, don't leave them to Randy. And then like, he just proceeds to just like put his foot on the, on the gas about this Randy theory. And then you see Pacino trying to be like, well, but we don't know about that. It's just really funny to me.

[B]

Their dynamic in that scene is so good. The look when he mentions, oh, the gun and oh, yeah, you know, it's the heating bed and the floorboards. It's really, really great.

[A]

What's your following on?

[B]

Would our talk everlasting guy? Should he have been Anakin Skywalker?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What a fascinating alternate history.

[A]

Jonathan Jackson. Okay, so General Hospital was Did you have a soap opera where, like, where were you?

[B]

Dining light.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Heart. Jess, up. Why do you think I'm so obsessed with Frank Grillo? It's one of my formative crushes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yep. Is it clarifying to know that.

[A]

Yes. And I would say Lucky from General Hospital. There you go.

[B]

Well, more age appropriate. Pick

[A]

Lucky from General Hospital, who's Luke and Laura's son, Jonathan Jackson. Lucky and Elizabeth. Very like. It's just like. Have I told you about how we watch General Hospital in college?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

So you know soap operas. I don't know if. If kids these days have a relationship with soap operas for, like. But for our generation, it's like, you're home sick. Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Or you're pretending to be sick so you can stay home to watch General Hospital.

[A]

And it's very. It's very, like, kind of for. It's like, for. For grownups. It's like TV shows for grownups during the day that it was, like, tame enough that a kid could watch it, but felt, like, close enough to Melrose Place or, like, something like that.

[B]

They were like, for sure.

[A]

Or during the summer, like, you. You can, like, watch them during the summer or something like that.

[B]

And, like, the grocery store aisle, there

[A]

were always, like, the Soap Opera Digest.

[B]

The Soap Opera Digest. You were like, ooh, I wonder what that's about. And then you wanted to find out. Oh, man.

[A]

But in college, I met Tracy and Jackie, and we all discovered that, like, we. General Hospital was our like. And this is the thing about soap opera storytelling is, like, it's told in such a way that, like, if you miss months at a time, you could dip back in, and you're pretty well oriented. It's fine. Tracy and Jackie were like, we also, like, watch General Hospital. So Jackie, I think it was Jackie set up a VCR to tape General Hospital every day of the week. And then on Friday afternoons, we would get together, like, put on the tape with all the episodes of General Hospital that week and, like, make brownies and watch General Hospital and, like, fast forward through the storylines we didn't care about in all the commercials. And so you could get it done in, like, two hours, basically. And it was just, like.

[B]

It was incredible. I'm trying to college experience. Only way to make that more firmly rooted in our age group, because vcr. Vcr. General Hospital making brownies. Easy Bake Oven. That might be the one way.

[A]

No, but, like, box brownies, for sure. Box brownies. Delicious.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, man.

[A]

Great time.

[B]

Love knowing this about you.

[A]

Yeah, Truly Jonathan Jackson. Jackson should have been much bigger than he was, I think. I know. Yeah.

[B]

He would have been a good Anakin.

[A]

He would have been a great.

[B]

Obviously we have so much affection for Hayden, but he would have been. He would have been a good Anakin. We already talked about the. On the following front, the Bill taking Cobb to his own place in that whole sequence. I, I love the scene between Cobb and the blonde toward the end. She's like, did you have to beat him? Did you have to sleep with him? You told me to. Well, I said you should if you had to. But that's not really the same as telling you to. I would like to clarify. That's not the part I picked for funniest. That's actually really fucked up and dark. But then he says, did you enjoy it? Because he's jealous. Right? And then she says, did you enjoy beating him up? And Cobb says, of course. And then she just goes, so good.

[A]

Great stuff for the blonde in the final days of her life. Oh, man. We're bringing this back. It was absent for Memento, but it's back here for Insomnia. Unless you have something from following, you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling. Sickest set piece.

[B]

Yeah. What were your fault? What would even be eligible for following the Giving yourself a haircut in your laundry room slash bathroom slash kitchenette with giant shears. That's a set piece. In a way. It seemed dangerous.

[A]

Something. I will say this is a different interpretation of the words set and piece. But there's a very distinctive, very cool looking door to the bar that has these holes in it. A piece of the set. Sickest piece of the set. Look at you in following is that door. And it just reminded me of like, I think Nolan has done a good job later in his career of just like finding cool bits of architecture that exist in the world to like use heightened reality. He wants his films always look real but slightly heightened. And I think using that door is sort of like an early version of that, you know, similar to what we talked about the motel in Memento and how he likes want it to look like if MC Escher designed a motel courtyard, you know, like here's this door that like looks very odd and distinctive. But I think for Insomnia, I think it's the log. The log chase.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, so my two, my. The contenders are fog chase or log chase. So yeah, I went with fogger log. Fogger log. Yeah. I mean, maybe because Foggy's on my mind.

[A]

So I'm a little bit more of a loggy or a little bit more of a fog. Is that. Is that everyone has two wolves inside of them? One's a log, one's fog. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so you're going. Going far. Give us the log case.

[A]

Action without dialogue. You know, we have Pacino chasing Robin Williams across these logs on. On. I don't know. Is it a flume? I don't know what a flume is. Water.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Pacino eventually falls under and then there's this like harrowing sequence where he can't find. And then he gets a ladder and he gets out. And then Williams is still sort of like running in the logs and looks back at him and then keeps running. And so it's like action as storytelling versus dialogue is storytelling.

[B]

He's almost like daring him to shoot him too when he stands there.

[A]

And it's very like following is so impressive for a number of reasons, but mainly for writing reasons. Like it's, you know, and I think memento similarly mainly for writing reasons. There's like great performances, great concept, great editing, all this other stuff like that. But like, they're so well written. But what Nolan eventually will do is also do storytelling through non dialogue action sequences. We'll talk about this a lot when we get to Tenet. You know, certainly talked about it at the Dark Knight or with Batman Begins, et cetera, et cetera. Inception. And so I think this log chase, fog chase is also very good, obviously, and very consequential to the plot of the movie. But I don't know, there was something about the log chase that I was just like. I was like, oh, set piece is back on the table, baby. I'm excited.

[B]

So I think I do really like the log chase too. And I like that stare down and taunt at the end. I think there is one degree for me with the long chase of like we're watching pretty like old dudes, like, who I think probably should not have even been able to balance for that long.

[A]

Pacino does not belong on a lot.

[B]

The fence hopping is maybe even more incredible in that respect. There's a little bit of that too, with the fog chase, because even just the kind of initial after the megaphone is. Is accidentally activated, tipping off Finch in his. His version of a murder cloak. Welcome to the podcast.

[A]

You know, he fits that anorak. Is that what that is? What's a flume and what's an anorak? I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, there's a little bit of that too. With, like, the running on the. The rocks. And you're like, I believe he should probably fall and, like, just die.

[A]

Break a hip anyway. Break a hip at least.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What's the problem with Pacino?

[A]

Jumps down, like, the ladder into the water. And I'm like, his knees are broken.

[B]

I do think that's a broken. That's like a broken leg, an exploded Achilles, something. And also, the ladder is right there. Why? That said, I do really love that sequence because of how the story is reflected in the physicality of the action. The idea of just what it tells us before the action begins unfolding, actually about how Dormer thinks as a detective, like, luring their mark to the. This scene by floating the. We're looking for the bag that she left the party with Story. And the media was like, oh, this guy's mind is working in a different way and at a different level. So that's just kind of. You're, like, really, I think, gripped by the story at that point. Then everything goes to shit. The chase begins. So it's such a great cat and mouse pursuit, but then it's flipped on its head so effectively, because it's like, wait, I think I'm the cat and he's the mouse. Is that not right? Am I being led? Am I being lured? What? Will he very quickly be able to, like, lord over me? And then just the. You already mentioned this earlier, but, like, the literal fog before we get to the fog of sleep deprivation. It's effective because it leads to this confusion. And then the question of, like, well, wait, was I confused? Which is obviously just very crucial. Was it a mistake? Was it an active choice? This idea of, like, not being able to, like, see or understand your surroundings or the decisions that you make so much of that, which is basically like, the examination of Dormer's mind throughout the rest of the film is given to us in a physical, palpable way in the fog. In the fog chase. And it just looks really cool. And it's scary because you're like, shit. They probably can't see each other. Someone's gonna get shot. And then that is, in fact, what happens. So it's very memorable.

[A]

Very good. All right. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Who's the real villain of this movie?

[B]

Yeah. What do you have here?

[A]

Here I have more tyranny who's going to come up again later. Or whoever owns this lodge for not putting blackout curtains on the windows. If you're in a place where the sun doesn't set. Okay. We've talked about our experience in the Sweden hotels.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which were mixed neg for a lot of reasons. But I will say this is like the light when we were in Sweden, it was bright very late and bright very early. Like the amount of dark.

[B]

10:30 when we left the bars. And it was.

[A]

Was up at like three years. Something like that. But effective blackout in those. No ac, no open windows. But effective blackout on the windows. And that's how it should be if you run an establishment in a place where the sun is up. That easily permeable shade with the like cracks on either side. Are you kidding me?

[B]

Totally nuts.

[A]

I have blackout curtains in my house. Same which, as you know, I literally just hung last night. But like. So. Yeah, that's. That's the villain of this movie.

[B]

Great one. I mean, maybe it doesn't feel like as sound or necessary of an investment because for five months of the year, the sun's never up. Who knows, you know, Trying to keep the lodge liquid. I don't know. It is crazy.

[A]

It rains nine months out of the year in Seattle, but you still need windows. I don't know. Yeah.

[B]

You're not like, well, it doesn't rain for a few months, so I don't need an umbrella or rain boots or a jacket. Yeah. The shade situation is nuts. Truly nuts. Great pick. So you mentioned you read those Nolan quotes and his.

[A]

About guilt.

[B]

About guilt. And I think a kind of related aspect of that is something that stems from guilt, that stems from shame, that stems from the uncertainty that we feel because of those things, which is just like our capacity. So this is the insomnia pick. Our capacity for self deception, you know, which is like again, very present across his filmography. And I think this is a really interesting examination of it because it is active text. Right. It's subtle in certain respects, but the characters are discussing it. Like, I just love when Dormer says to Finch on the ferry, you're my job. You're what I'm paid to do. You're about to mysterious to me as a blocked toilet is to a plumber. Sick burn. Honestly, reasons for doing what you did. Who gives a. And for like the whole time he's saying that you're. You're like, yeah, preach. Right? And then Finch says, motivations are everything, Will, what did you see through the fog? And you're like. He was undone by that one question.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Ellie saying to him when she picks him up one morning, waiting for him. A good cop can't sleep because A piece of the puzzle's missing. And a bad cop can't sleep because his conscience won't let him. You said that once. And he's like, I did Ellie.

[A]

Throwing his words back at him.

[B]

Incredible. Constantly, Finch, who is using him and trying to best him and use him as a shield. You're a good man. I know that. Even if you've forgotten it. Like, this is all such a fucked up psychodrama that preys upon the fact that Will is not sure if that's true anymore or whether if it's not true, that's justified.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If it makes. If it ensures that other people, like we were talking about earlier, like Dobbs, are put away. So when Will says to Rachel, the Martierni character, they've reopened, they would have reopened Dobbs case, and he'd have walked. And now that's not gonna happen. And I don't know how I feel about that. He's really grappling with this. Even though his choices indicate a moral clarity. This is just so interesting. And then, of course, the end, you know, resolution with Ellie where, like, you know, did you mean to shoot Hap? I don't know anymore. I don't know. I couldn't see him through the fog. And then what you already shared about him being afraid. But then when Ellie says at the end, like, you didn't mean to do it. And I know that even if you don't. I know that even if you don't, like, we don't. He's never the one who says to us. And I have reached a place of certainty. So it's just such a destabilizing place to be. And I really like the way that the movie. Exactly. And said it's great, I think, for following. If I had to throw something out, I guess I would say, like, maybe this is sort of fucked up, because I think broadly, we both really like when stories are like, you want something more for yourself, go get it. But there's an examination here of, like, lack of contentment with who you are. When that shifts from ambition and intention into greed.

[A]

Like, not just greed, but also, like, it makes you so vulnerable to manipulation.

[B]

Yeah. Cobb saying you take it away, you show them what they had. Right. And, like, he's doing that to Bill without Bill realizing it.

[A]

I loved that. That line, really.

[B]

You take it away, you show them what they had. Oh, my God, man.

[A]

All right. Are you watching closely? Most exquisitely gorgeous shot. This was very easy for me. I don't know if it was for you.

[B]

I actually also Had a pretty easy time with this. Yeah. Which.

[A]

This is the opening of Insomnia, definitely. This is the plane on the mountain. Like, how tiny the plane is with the snowy mountains everywhere. And, like, having watched Following Memento quite recently, you're just sort of like, here's Chris with a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here's Chris able to show you just something, like, really shiny and gorgeous. Just like the way that he uses the natural landscape throughout the movie to sort of, you know, underpin the story. How tiny the people look in this daunting wilderness and the way in which that location where the sun is, is just going to, you know, slowly cook this guy's brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he returned. You know, like, you think about Dunkirk a lot when you see that shot, and you just sort of like how tiny humans are in the vastness of the natural world that surrounds them. So I just thought that was like.

[B]

It's gorgeous. It is so beautiful and kind of astonishing. And it is one of those shots where you're like, it's just amazing that there are places like this in the world you could go see. I love to remind me a lot,

[A]

weirdly, this is my obligatory talking about Westworld on this. But, like, the way that they use Monument Valley, like, the way that they use that landscape inside of that to just make everyone look so small on

[B]

this, I really love that. The kind of, like, the vastness aspect. But, like, also, there's something about. So when. Because we go in a few, we go over the kind of, like, the icy glacier, then there's, like, the water stretch, but the ice, the way that. That's like. It's a white snowscape, this glacial stretch, but it's, like, the blue and then the mess of, like, the soot and the dirt on top of it. Like, there's a version of it where the purest thing you could see is just like a glacier out in the wild. But it's like, no, this is mess, messy. This is befouled in some way. And then I really like that. It's, like, spiky. It almost looks to me like the ice is. Has taken the form of, like, the steeple of a church, you know, but on repeat time and time again. So this question of, like, how.

[A]

Girl, I like that about spirituality and

[B]

your religion and your faith and whether that's going to be questioned, really, really great. It's just such a memorable opening shot. You mentioned my contender from following already, which is. Is the pan of the box, the seahorse, the candy necklace, this really gentle, lovely pan of objects that tell you something about someone's life.

[A]

Also following is just such a rewarding rewatch because when you go back to the beginning and you see that, it's like Cobb assembling the box in the first place. You know what I mean? It's just. It's really fun.

[B]

Yeah, it really is. And there's something about too. Like, so much of that movie is about, like, the voyeurism, but in that little moment, there's like a gentleness and like a genuine curiosity that is mixed in with that.

[A]

It's really, really great.

[B]

All right, here comes the easiest category of the pod.

[A]

It's back. Well, there's only one reason why it's here. Doesn't always apply, but it sure does apply here. Oh, my God, he doesn't speak English. If he does, it's with an accent thicker than sauerkraut sauce. This is the most baffling accent category. Mallory, take it away.

[B]

Listen, we had.

[A]

We were like, this has to be here for insomnia.

[B]

Now we have the pleasure of working at the Ringer, where there's a podcast called the Rewatchables. And for basically a decade, they have been talking and chronicling some of the ways that Al Pacino, one of the great performers in the history of the world. To be clear, one of our great actors every so often makes a choice. And there are a lot of the great, like. Like Al Pacino is yelling something moments in this movie, but the accent, given how much of this story hinges on this, is an LA cop and they've been flown up cuz I A is breathing down their necks. And so they're here to help.

[A]

Even if he was a New York guy transplanted to la, almost no questions then. Sure. That's not what we get.

[B]

It's like my guy is at the Red river rivalry, and you're just trying to figure out if he's a Sooners fan or a Longhorns fan fan. I don't understand what this accent is.

[A]

You said Alabama. Is that what you were saying?

[B]

Initially I said I floated Arkansas to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then I think I landed on, like, on more of a Red River, Texas, Oklahoma thing. But perhaps we should consult Mahoney.

[A]

I was going like, Kentucky.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

The truth is it's all over the map, because sometimes it's Southern, sometimes it's like Bronx.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And sometimes it's like L. A. I don't know what he's doing. I don't think he knows what he's Doing. Doing. He's Al Pacino. He can do whatever he wants. It's great. Hooah. Like, whatever. Never a dull moment with Al Pacino. But the accent work in this movie is absolutely baffling.

[B]

It's a. It's really amazing. It's hysterical.

[A]

All right. Amateurs seek this on get eaten. Power stays in the shadows. Stealth. MVP of this movie that not enough people talk about. Hmm.

[B]

So it's an interesting one with following given, like, I would say, and maybe we've just been missing out on these conversations. That would be sad. But I don't know that there's like a not enough people talk about following discourse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you can almost just say the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say inside of it, though, that 16 millimeter black and white film choice and all of the things that you've already, like, beautifully outlined about what led to that and the necessity of invention. It looks great. And it's so specific. It is so hyper specific. And it really, I think also, like, there's this kind of, like, gritty, we're on the streets of London and this fire escape, and we're like, you know, oh, we'd be really excited to have this half a bottle of wine that we stole kind of aspect. It all just feels, like, really great. And I think just something about the runtime, too. It's like, that could be a Black Mirror episode. Mm. You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know. The visual presentation of it is just. I found it when I first booted it up. I was like, wait, what? But then I really loved it. And I like, I. I like that it exists in that form. So, yeah, I think that's my pick for following.

[A]

Do you have an insomnia pick?

[B]

We've already talked about it, but I think just so I'll build on, it's the location. But I think inside of that, because obviously all the things we've already talked about about, like the making the people feel small, the fact that the sun is not setting. The great early, like, you know, oh, how far is the school? It's like, my bro, it's like 10 o' clock at night. Like, the kids are not at school. You have no idea what time it is. The way that. That part of how Finch is fucking with Dormer throughout the film is like, how many nights has it been since you last slept? And then he's like, you broke my record. You broke my record. Midnight on night six. But then inside of the location, yeah. The other element is the locals. And I think this is a Very important aspect of the film because you have these big city cops.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Questionable accents, but big city cops. Donovan has no questionable accent. It's really Pacino.

[A]

Specifically, is this, say, pro Tanya category?

[B]

Tanya, as the striving, estranged bestie taken to the dump is. She's memorable. Certainly very upsetting car ride sequence. But no, like you mentioned Randy. Randy, like the just really great dirt bag. Boyfriend.

[A]

Boyfriend. If you want to say Jonathan Jackson.

[B]

Jonathan Jackson. Less so Tanya. But sure, we can put them in together. We've kind of made fun a little bit of Rachel and the Lodge already. But I think the idea. Not expertly deployed, but like. Like the idea that, like, even the way when they wait, they check in and she's like lower 48, you know, just the idea that, like, people who are up there are like, you're not from here, but you also haven't made the choice to be here. And that kind of distinction and gap. And then the way that the. The cops have a different relationship to that. So you have like, Ellie, who, as we've talked about is like, you're my hero. I can't believe you're here to like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Teach me these things. You get to write that down. Oh, should I should. I'm driving. No, I'm just like, with you.

[A]

But you.

[B]

But then Nikki Katz character Fred is like, we know how forensics work up here from the minute they show up. He's like, you don't need to come here to tell us how to do our jobs. So that dynamic is interesting because it is something that Finch actively exploits. He knows that the local cops are going to be more. That he's going to be able to lead them, bait them, but also that they're going to want to be the ones who crash the. Not the guys who were flown up from the big city. So you know this. Like, you don't know who we are and how we live, and you think that we need your help and we don't.

[A]

Were you thinking a lot about the most recent season of True Detective when you were.

[B]

Yes, definitely. I mean, especially because of the, you know, when is the sun up or down? And how does that completely fuck with you? And I thought that was even more interesting, the sun never being up. Like, night country.

[A]

Night country.

[B]

And what that would do to you. I mean, I would definitely, definitely, definitely, like, not be able to handle either, I don't think. Yeah, but it's such an interesting thing to say. Like, what happens when. Now we both have, I think, very complicated relationships with sleep and a healthy Sleep cycle.

[A]

But like chardonnay, Melatonin.

[B]

And my Blake taught me. My Blake. Tommy Boot the TV on. The idea of, like, even if your life doesn't actually neatly operate against these rhythms, like. Like, it could and maybe it should, and if that is ripped away from you as a possibility, something that's kind of like core to human biology is so interesting.

[A]

My answer here, I already mentioned. I think it's Robin Williams. I think this is like a really underrated Robin Williams performance. And like, he's one of my favorite. I mean, like, obviously, like, whatever, whatever. Do you know what I watched my last night back home before I moved down here?

[B]

Jack?

[A]

Yeah, the classic.

[B]

I used to watch that all the time when I was a kid. Dead poets.

[A]

No. My best friend Diana and I, we went out and we got like, with some friends. Got these like, sushi boats at the sushi place. Amazing. Drank too much sake. Went home with our friend Paul. He stayed over. We watched Aladdin. Just. Cause, like, it came up and I was just like, aladdin rules. I'm just putting Aladdin. It's like one of those, like, drunk decisions where you're just sort of like, you know what we should watch right now? Aladdin.

[B]

Never a bad idea.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I mean, Aladdin rules the moment.

[A]

Aladdin, where the genie, as played perfectly by Robin Williams, goes, be yourself. I think is one of the funniest jokes in all of Disney animation. I think it's so good. Anyway. Rob Williams, I really don't like.

[B]

My favorite. My favorite, like, OG Disney animated anime,

[A]

Aladdin manga, Sleeping Beauty, but Aladdin's. And then Robin Hood, but then Aladdin's up there.

[B]

There's so many good ones. Lion King, great.

[A]

Robin Will. I. I think what devastates me more than like, a lot of other things when I think about Robin Williams, you know, like local barrier legend. Like, we used to see him all the time in Marin County. Like, etc. Etc. Is the way sort of like his audience kind of turned on him towards the end of his career. Like, he just. He ended his life thinking that he wasn't like. Like didn't have the juice or whatever because, like. And I just. That devastates me. Like, he was always incredible and like, not every project he was in was incredible, but he was always incredible. And so like, again, this. This Year of death to smoochie and 24 hour photo and insomnia was a real like, what is Robin Williams doing? Kind of year. But I'm like, I don't know. Insomnia rips he's really good at it. Yeah. All right. You're waiting on a train. A train that will take you far away. This is usually the best dead wife moment. We don't have dead wife wives in this movie, so don't worry.

[B]

There are some dead women.

[A]

There's many dead girls. Here's where I'm gonna pitch you my insomnia theory. Tell me, is Maura Tierney a ghost? The only two people who talk to her are Hap and Pacino, basically. Right.

[B]

She answers the phone.

[A]

Yeah. She's not actually a ghost. She's just. Her character is so thin.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

And she really just exists so that Al Pacino can monologue to her at one point that I'm like, I think this is better if she doesn't exist at all. She's not a real person.

[B]

You know what? It would explain. She does seem to be. And again, Dormer is always awake, but that's not good. She does seem to be the only person who's responsible for being awake to run the lodge at all hours of the day. If you're a ghost, that's probably fine.

[A]

I've decided she's a ghost. It's a better. It's a better version of. We're going to talk about female characterization in the next category, too.

[B]

But, like, can ghosts flip on light switches? Huh? Be like, it's actually dark in here.

[A]

Swayze learned how to move objects and ghosts. Come on. Of course. These are the ghost rules. What's your. What's your answer here?

[B]

So I think that it's pretty great in following that, the blonde before she is, of course, killed because there's got to be a dead girl.

[A]

Also, she doesn't have a name.

[B]

Top.

[A]

A lot of people in the movie don't have a name, but, like, she's the third main character.

[B]

She is the third main character, and

[A]

she doesn't have a name.

[B]

Yes, I think it is great that it's very Vertigo.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

But, like, yes, for sure. I think it's great that the blonde, despite not having a name, is an actual character in the story. She is not just dead from the jump. She's, like, there the entire time. And she is an active participant in the tale, so that was refreshing. Obviously, an insomnia. Kay is dead right away.

[A]

It's very Twin Peaks Laura Palmer, dead girl wrapped in plastic sort of thing.

[B]

You know, she's speaking through the clues she left behind. Sure. That's. And, in fact, Pacino's like, if we can know her, maybe we can Know him?

[A]

Sure. So, again, what a great use for her. That's tough.

[B]

That's tougher. So I prefer the blonde to be like, I'm actually hearing the story. That was nice.

[A]

All right. He's the hero Gotham deserves and not the one it needs right now. Who was regrettably miscast and who would you replace him with?

[B]

I honestly didn't have anything for this.

[A]

I have an answer for this, and it underlines my working thesis about women in Nolan movies. My answer is Hilary. I don't think Hilary Swank as Ellie is, like, as compelling as I would like her to be. Yeah, it's an identifiable character. Yeah, for sure. Archetype. But, like, this is. Maybe I just hate women, which is something we're open to exploring on this podcast. But, like, my answer has been like, Elliot Page in Inception or Katie Holmes in Batman Begins. I think there's like an ingenue type character that Nolan is pretty bad at. I think those. He struggles with those characters. He's better at femme fatales. So when you get Mal in Inception or you get Carrie Moss in Memento, or I would even say like Elizabeth Debicki in Tenet, like, who's not quite a femme fatale but is, like, has a bit more to her than these, like, sort of wide eyed, innocent type characters, I think he really struggles with that. I think an exception is, you know, and like Anne Hathaway's Catwoman, et cetera, et cetera. So good. An exception would be Anne Hathaway in Interstellar, which I think is a similar mode but much better executed. And I actually think Rebecca hall in the Prestige is another example of that. Yeah. Jonathan Nolan co written. So I. I think this is like an archetype that Chris Nolan struggles with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, no women really to be seen in Dunkirk, et cetera, et cetera. Like our dead wife moment. Like, this is just an ongoing interrogation of the way which Kristen Nolan writes women. But like, I think Hilary Swank.

[B]

This is between Hilary Swank's two Oscars. Is that right? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I just, you know, Ellie is just like, not that interesting at, unfortunately. So I think this is just a character type he struggles with, but there isn't really that kind of character in the Odyssey, so it's not something we have to worry about because Penelope is not that. And again, it's Anne Hathaway, which he's, you know, proven that he's gonna crush it, you know, et cetera. So. And all the other women are scheming ladies, so can't wait to watch them scheme. You don't really have an answer for this. Hi, Daimler.

[B]

I didn't really have any.

[A]

No, not really. I guess I would say, you know, following I have endless sort of grace for. Because this is like, let's get our friends together to put on a show. But, you know, the actors playing Bill is not tremendous. The actress playing the blonde is not tremendous. We'll talk about the other main character of the movie and our thoughts. Yeah, exactly. But. But, you know, if you were to remake the remake following with some more polished professional actors, you know, you could say that. But that doesn't really feel like, fair to talk about.

[B]

So.

[A]

So, all right. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled. Most satisfying twist.

[B]

I mean, it has to be this. Ha. I. I think that this has to be from following like, this is. This is one of the really, like, great, thrilling ones across the whole filmography. And it's a filmography full of satisfying twists. Like cop. The cut. The phone call to Cobb. And then cutting and realizing the cob looks great. Little chest hair on display. There against the window is one with the blonde. And you're like, whoa. And then we build and build and build from there. Beating Bill. God, it's perfect. The photos worked. I even got him to cut his hair and change his clothes. God, it was so embarrassing when we went to his place. Like, he's boasting. You're like, oh, my Lord. You already start to replay every moment you've seen, right? Learning that the bruises came from Cobb, from that fight. Fight Cobb. Then the glove in his mouth. In his mouth is so wild. Cobb attempting to frame Bill. The discussion with the blonde about being taken in for questioning. This dead woman. No, they wouldn't believe it says, seeking someone of roughly the same appearance, roughly the same way of working. So the learning that he lured him into this entire, like, do you want to learn how to be a thief? How to be a burner?

[A]

Look like me and act like me,

[B]

because I need them to be able to mistake you for me. But then, no, not actually. It's all. There's more twists to come. The blonde tells Danny. Bill about Cobb needing a decoy. Tells him this to get caught robbing a place that leads Danny to go confess. And you're like, it's all falling apart for Cobb. No, it hasn't. This is all what he wanted.

[A]

Schemes, plotsman plots.

[B]

He wanted Bill to go to the cops and implicate himself. The cop saying, you see, we don't actually have any unsolved murders of old ladies? The way that your heart fucking sinks for this character, for this poor duped fool. This mark is like so effective. Cobb kills the blonde for the bald cunt. Tough one for that guy. He wasn't that bald. Some receding hairline.

[A]

But everyone, his character's name is the bald guy.

[B]

It sure is. The blood stained carpet coming back into play. The blackmail for having stashed this thing. After witnessing this murder. We found her this morning. The cop says, framed. He has been framed for the blondes murder. The hammer coming back into the play. He has confessed to using it. It's covered in her blood and the blood that he already said would be there. The shoebox under his bed. Every man has a box. Has the underwear saucy that he has been again incepted into taking. And the address. The Deloitte. The credit card. You can't afford this meal. Well, guess what? I'm gonna show you how to get it for free. I'm gonna take you to this place and tell you that one of the things I do is like people are out of town and I just move in. But I'm not gonna tell you that that's what I did with this place. You're only gonna find out when you realize it was part of what fucked you. Because that's the credit card you signed. And this guy came home and said his credit card never showed up. It's just kind of amazing how all of the twists build. The twists build sequentially in a story we're watching out of order. It's really, really satisfying and like really fun and quite a bummer for our guy Bill slash Dan.

[A]

Bill kind of sucks, so I'm not that worried about him. But it's just so sad. I just had. Yeah, I had everything that cop does and like, I think and especially the very like Hitchcockian like explaining the plot to the woman he's about to kill sort of moment is. Is very good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Going back and rewatching the part with the hammer. How he incepted the hammer and like that is so. I love that because he. He rattles off a couple options. Hammer's in the middle. Yeah. You know, and then our guy Bill just takes the bait. He's like, hammer. And then he's like, oh yeah, you can use it for this, that and the other thing.

[B]

And even like that's after their fight. So just kind of knowing, trusting that he would still reach out to him again. The level of like this, this man is totally in my power. And in my thrall is my only other option.

[A]

I mean, I completely agree with you and everything you said. Perfect answer. My only option for. Or my main option for insomnia is the location of the gun. So in this interrogation scene, when Robin Williams comes into the station and he looks at Pacino, and Pacino has planted the gun in the heating vent near the floorboards of Robin Williams. So when Robin Williams turns him and it's like, you know, a heating vent near the floorboard, Pacino goes, oh, he found the gun that I planted in his place, and he put it in a similar place in good old General Hospital's Jonathan Jackson's house. So we have this, like, race against the clock while the cops are trying to get a warrant for Jonathan Jackson's house. Randy, if you want to use character name, but why would I? And so we're cutting back and forth between Pagino desperately searching around Randy's place to find the heating vent where the. Where the gun is, is while the cops are trying to get the warrant, and the cops show up, and it turns out that Robin Williams, knowing that Pacino would do that, put the gun in the oil can and hit it somewhere else. And that is very. It's A, very good. And B, very choose between Rachel and Harvey Dent and go race and find one. And oops, I put them in opposite places.

[B]

And also oil will be involved.

[A]

And also oil will be involved. Like, it's. It's. There's so much Dark Knight in insomnia. It's so crazy. All right. It's not I who. Who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me. Nolan is not known for his sexual content, but let's go ahead and try to excavate the horniest moment of this film.

[B]

I think it's. The subtitling is.

[A]

Oh, you love a subtitle.

[B]

Inhales deeply as Cobb takes double fistfuls of the blonde's underwear and goes, oh,

[A]

girl, that's not horny.

[B]

That's disgusting.

[A]

Absolutely filthy.

[B]

It's pretty horny when Dani heads upstairs, and the blonde's like, I'm gonna go get dressed. And she, like, looks at him in the mirror. That's pretty hot, though. I don't like that he kisses with his eyes open. No, no.

[A]

Here's what I've discovered about you this week. Anytime someone breathes in a movie or TV show, you're like, they're coming. All right, I want to give it to. Because I didn't quite remember the plot of Insomnia when I Was watching it. The look that Hap shares with with Moore. Attorney, who may or may not be a ghost. At check in, I was like, you two are going to fuck.

[B]

Oh, for sure. No question.

[A]

You know, Hap has a wife. And he's like, I'm turning you in because of my wife. And he mentions his wife. He says my wife, like a hundred times at their halibut dinner. But there were vibes he definitely wanted to fuck more. Attorney who may or may not be a ghost.

[B]

So your pick is not cutting to ghost. Hotelier Rachel curled up on Pacino's bed in the morning after he confessed all of his sins to her. And she was like, this room is actually pretty dark. Go to bed. You won't know. Okay, I will. It's not that.

[A]

No.

[B]

Do you think they.

[A]

No. All right. For me, I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship. A line from Tenant, a movie we will get to eventually. Actor who never returned to the Nolan verse, but should have. We have the same answer.

[B]

I'm sorry. Why is Alex Haw, who plays Cobb in following, not one of the most famous people alive?

[A]

Why did he stop acting so good in following? Dude, he's in incredible with love and respect. Like, oh, reason the movie works because, yeah, again, Bill and the blonde are like, giving. We're making this movie with our friend level acting, and he's giving something else entirely. So suave, so charming, so twisted. So all of these things. Like, he's so watchable. He's so fun. He's so all this sort of stuff like that. And you texted me after I'd already discovered this, you were like, he never acted again. And I sent you this devastating article he wrote in, like, an architecture because he became an architect.

[B]

Seems like he's a very successful.

[A]

Where he's like, he became an architect. And so around when I think Batman Begins came out, he wrote an article that was like, I was in Batman, director Christopher Nolan's first film. And then he's just like, it was a lock we made. And like, whatever. And I found it very boring and I didn't really like it, so I became an architect instead. But he's so good. He's amazing in following. It's a crime against theater, film, television that he has not become an actor.

[B]

He is like. And not only do I wish that we had just gotten to see him continue. Continue to. To act and perform because he's just very compelling. I really wish we had gotten to see him in another Nolan movie because he is such a classic Nolan Chameleon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, he is such. Listen, I'm on the record over the course of this Nolan rewatch run of saying, and maybe I'll not only change this at the end, but probably have contradicted this five times already. But I think you can make the case that, like, Hardy as Eames in Inception is, like, maybe the single most perfect casting of anything in the R. Is just unbelievable and undeniable.

[A]

I think I agree with you, but

[B]

I'm like, could this guy have, like, played Eames?

[A]

He could have, but I don't want

[B]

anyone other than Hardy to play Eames.

[A]

Almost just, like, add another member to the team at Inception, so that outlet

[B]

is capable of doing that.

[A]

He should have been on the team in Inception, man. Yeah, absolutely. He should have shown up in some, like, in some capacity somewhere. That would have just been a really exciting. Because, like, he. He does that a few times. We talked about that. Like, Mark Boone Jr. Like, he. He does that a couple times with, like, actors he's used, and they show up in his earlier stuff, and they show up in smaller roles later. The way he uses his uncle, like, whatever. It would just been really fun. I'm too late to put Alex ha in the Oscar.

[B]

He definitely could have been in the Prestige.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, Inception most of all, I think Inception, he could have been in Dunkirk.

[A]

Yeah. A random soldier in Dunkirk. Sorry, Benedict Britterton, get him out of there and put Alex on. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Some men just want to watch the world burn. The most known thing about this movie for following, I think it's literally everything.

[B]

Literally everything is my bullet point. You know, we've talked about it already. I think we've also talked about my insomnia pick. But just to kind of, like, reiterate it here at the end, you outlined this earlier, the measuring stick men. Like, this idea of Dormer and Finch.

[A]

Measuring stick men is such a good way to put it.

[B]

Thanks, buddy.

[A]

Such a good way.

[B]

You know, the two leaders of Prestige, you know, watching the way that Jackman and Bale are rivals who are also parallel peers. Batman and the Joker. Have you heard of them, lads? But also Batman and Bane. Batman and Ra's. Like, this is just such a consistent way through which Nolan positions his characters and explores his ideas and, like, again, to see at the beginning of his filmography how well done that is, it's like, it makes sense that he keeps returning to it.

[A]

So, yeah, I think that's the pick. Love it. All right. Our greatest accomplishments cannot be behind us. What should that also Be the quote for the horny category. What aspect of Nolan's upcoming the Odyssey are you thinking about? Slash most hyped for this week?

[B]

You know, this is a pretty lame and obvious answer, but I think just like, because Fog. Yeah. Water. Once again, water. I think because we're talking about like following as the most skeleton key blueprint esque film in the filmography and then Insomnia as a really good, fun, well made film that is maybe the least Nolan y. Even though it has those Nolan touches. The Odyssey, as we have talked about many times here with our big pig pals, it's the story. When you're like, what are the stories? You're like talking about about the Bible. You're talking about the Gilgamesh. You're talking about Gilgamesh. You're talking about. Yeah, they're like, you know, a handful of things that we're going to invoke. Yeah, we're going to get the Bard in here.

[A]

I always love talking about Gilgamesh.

[B]

Going to get mythology in here. Yeah, me same. You know, Gilgamesh, one of my favorite Philip Roth choices in the great American novel. Just incredible stuff.

[A]

When we talk about Inkado, that's my question.

[B]

All right, so just what is Christopher Nolan's version of the Odyssey? Like how does he put his fingerprints on a story that so many people know and that has influenced so many other tales? How much of it is gonna be

[A]

structure like the flashback to war which I'm anticipating we're gonna get?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This idea of like Odysseus is someone like who has to constantly question like, am I a hero? Like who? What can he know himself? Again, Ciara's great observation of people just trying to get home.

[B]

I mean that's been great men.

[A]

Great men. That's what I loved. Now we're sort of like rewinding and going back through the filmography. Fitting Batman Begins being that origin of that great man concept is really. Because I don't. We couldn't really dig it out of these first three films. But it's there. That's where it started, was our, you know, first film that we did. And that's why I put that category in there. So like, you know, we lead up to Oppenheimer and that is like such a like quote unquote, capital G, capital A, I'm a great man sort of thing. But like who is Odysseus inside of all of this? Yeah, yeah. All right, here's what I'm talking about. And it's sideways related imax. It's not about the imax. Thanks so much for making fun of my. I just both my and Chris Roland's commitment to technological advances.

[B]

I love imax. I. I wish there were more IMAX screens, as you know. I don't understand.

[A]

I don't think I just said imax. I think I talked about.

[B]

You definitely did not just say imax.

[A]

Specific technical things. This is sideways related, but it was just announced this week that there will be another adaptation of the Odyssey from Jerry Bruckheimer and it's an animated version. It's an adaptation of Epic the Musical, which is a nine part series of album musicals referred to as sagas, written and produced in their entirety by Puerto Rican actor and singer songwriter Jorge Rivera Herons. And it was released between 2022 and 2024. It's a sung through adaptation of the Odyssey. So we're gonna get an animated musical of the Odyssey. So eat your heart out, Christopher Nolan. This could have been you.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, if he had the courage to make a musical.

[A]

Well, the sirens will sing.

[B]

I mean, they fucking better.

[A]

They better. Chris, if your sirens don't sing, if they're just like shrieking or cooing, I'm out.

[B]

Yeah, it could be like a honking.

[A]

Oh, you're thinking of mermaids and Harry Potter. That's what you're thinking about. Come to the bottom of the lake. All right. Anyway, Gilly weed. All right. So yeah, there's going to be an animated Epic, the musical adaptation of the Odyssey. It's a slight cheap but like we just did this like a week ago, so there hasn't been a lot of new news about the Odyssey. Anything else you want to say before we go? I'm really excited that we did this. Your idea to do these together. I thought that was a really good idea.

[B]

This was great. I am so happy that I have now seen the film following by Christopher Nolan. Feel really glad that I've watched that and understand and how it's helpful. This was a blast. I continue to just have a genuinely great time revisiting these movies or visiting them for the first time in the case of following. And you know, it's all building toward. We, we've said it's all building toward the Odyssey and I guess in some ways that's true. However, isn't it just really building toward us finally watching Tenen again

[A]

and we have a plan for that?

[B]

Isn't that what it's all actually about?

[A]

Thank you to our fellow insomniacs.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Carla Shiraboga, Scott Lee, Jacob Cornette, Jamie Yugich, Kai Grady Arduna, Rainbow Powell and Jami Adeneron.

[B]

Squash.

[A]

Thanks for the team. Thank you to Mallory Rubin.

[B]

Should we go to Alaska? Sure. Have you been? No. Me neither.

[A]

Actually, I don't really want to go to Alaska.

[B]

I'll go by myself. Okay. Can I borrow a sleep mask?

[A]

I would rather go to, like, Iceland.

[B]

I would also do that.

[A]

Yeah, why not both? Let's go to Iceland. Okay.

[B]

Are we going to New Zealand? Yes, in a couple years. Eclipse.

[A]

Yeah, we got a lot of plans. None of them will be executed. Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you to everyone who watches and listens to the show. We will be back with, we hope, Hot D. Hopefully.

[B]

Hopefully.

[A]

Definitely some daredevil. Definitely some Maul Shadow Lord. And we've got some fun ideas for May that we're really excited about. A big theme month coming up.

[B]

And how many days until the Empire Lestat?

[A]

Four days until the Vampire Lestat. I was looking up sort of like glitter. I could get to sort of like put it on my face. Look at you. Yeah, look at you.

[B]

You silver or will it be red to look like specks of blood?

[A]

No. Lestat loves a silver glitter moment.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Just something to think about. See you soon.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless. But so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.