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- [00:00]
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Foreign. Hello.
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Welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. I officially live in Los Angeles. That's Mallory Rubin. She lives in the same town I do. How you doing, Mallory?
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A
It's the thrill of my life to share a studio, a podcast, a city, a creative mind, a rich and vibrant experience, and a life with you. And I'd also like to say. Nice shot, Lebowitz. Memento.
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B
Nice Memento. Here we are. Okay, so it is 25ish years later. Yeah, Memento. Part of our Nolan trek to the Odyssey. This is something that we have been doing slowly but surely, and then we're gonna have to ramp it up.
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A
Three months away.
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B
Odyssey will be here quite soon, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 movies left. It's fine. We're halfway there.
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A
Yeah, we're halfway exactly.
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It's time for everything to go from black and white to color, and we'll get into all Memento right after this. Okay. Before we go backwards and forwards in time and explore the limitations of memory and. And reality and all of that.
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A
Just.
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B
Just a small task here for the theme of the week for us. Yeah. What else do we have going on this week? Here's what's happened. Yes, we watched a couple episodes of Daredevil, and we were like, huh, that was pretty nice. But it was okay. And then we watched the beginning of. Or nope, I'm gonna say we. We watched the beginning of episode four, and we went, oh, my gosh. Daredevil, episode four. Our guy Dex. My guy Dex. But he can be ours if you want to share him.
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A
Sure. Yeah.
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B
Feeding cats, doing all sorts of stuff. So we're gonna do a Daredevil mid season check in later this week.
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A
We are.
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B
We're watch episode five, then we will do a sort of halfway through the season.
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A
I'm expecting big things for episode five. Just feels like the mid season should happen. Great time to check back in.
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Yeah. You have some theories. We'll see how they pan out.
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It's just a long way into the season for certain characters to not have appeared, so my hopes are high. We'll find out.
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B
Okay, so that's something we have coming up. We have some. I have some, like, big plans for May now that I'm here in studio. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about that. So we will. We will see what. What. What comes in May. But there's a lot going on, a lot that we're excited for, not to mention House of the Dragons coming later on, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Mallory Rubin. How can folks keep track of everything we're doing?
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A
Oh, follow the pod. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R. Here we are in our beautiful new studio together. What a wonderful thing. What a wonderful thing. You can also follow House of R on our new Instagram and TikTok HouseOfArpod. And you can send us your emails because the inbox is always open.
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B
Hobbitsanddragonmail.com okay, so the Nolan Trek.
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A
That's right.
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Here we are.
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A
Yes.
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B
As I mentioned, six more films to go.
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A
Yes.
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B
Two Batman films.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Some lesser works. The following and Insomnia. And then Tenet.
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A
That's right.
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B
And then the big boy, Oppenheimer.
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A
Tenet definitely I think the leader in the like bad babies reaching out and saying, give Tenet the appropriate consideration that it deserves.
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All we are saying is give peace and Tenet a chance. That's what our listeners are saying.
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A
I am excited to revisit Tenant. I truly am. It's been a minute since I saw that and could not hear a single word that was uttered in it, so I'm excited.
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B
Watching it at home with the closed captioning on it might be just like a completely different experience for you. Are you gonna do the closed captioning when you watch it?
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A
I don't think I'll have a choice. I mean, I'll watch it without and then I'll watch it again with. But I did watch it at home. And then you watch time and that made no difference.
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B
And then you'll watch it backwards.
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A
Yes, exactly.
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B
Okay. Do you feel like this time, this is the, like, sort of most spiritual twin to Memento, Ace Tenant.
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A
I think that obviously, like, one of the fun things about doing this Nolan revisitation in the run up to the Odyssey is realizing how many of the films not only navigate like memory or dreamscape or something, but the idea of time and the passage of time both in our lives, but also structurally and formally in the process of making a movie. So the non linear nature of this movie, I think certainly Tenet is difficult not to think about, especially given that this is like early in his career. Tenet is late in his career. That's like a fascinating thing across many, many years, decades of storytelling. But you know, Dunkirk, the like distillation of time inside of certain storylines that were moving in. And we realize as you watch that movie, like time is passing differently inside of those three storylines compared to interstellar time dilation, obviously. Inception, Limbo the way the time moves more quickly as you go deeper down the layers, et cetera. So so many of his films, I mean, it's also like, you know, the theme of great men, which we've talked about across the episodes. The dead wives, the through lines are like, really undeniable, which has been like, again, part of the fun of the journey here. The dead wife.
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Urtext I don't question.
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No question.
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B
Patient Zero.
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A
Unbelievable. Yeah.
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All right, so let's get into some quick facts. Directed by Christopher Nolan. Have you heard of him?
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A
I have.
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Screenplay by Chris Nolan. Based on the shorts. It's complicated, but based ish on the short story Memento Mori by my beloved Jonah Nolan. Jonathan Nolan US wide release March 16, 2001 budget 5 to 9 million dollars. Yeah, on the cheap.
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Wild.
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This is made on the cheap. Box office domestic $25 million international $14 million. A worldwide $39 million return on a 5 to 9 million dollar investment.
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Pretty good.
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Pretty, pretty good.
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A
Would have cost more if Brad Pitt had been in it. Certainly we'll talk about that, but pretty fucking good. And obviously a movie that has a lasting cultural impact and legacy and level of adoration that, well, exceeds that already impressive gap between what it cost to make and what it earned at the box office. This is a movie that people have a lot of affection for and maybe more accurate than affection is admiration for. I think this is something that people consider like a very impressive feat of filmmaking and something that very early in the Nolan brother run declared them as not only like intellectual filmmakers, but filmmakers of bold intention, which is one of the things I really love about it, especially as we are considering 25 years of moviemaking.
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B
I mean, I love this movie. I think I talked about this how my friend and I watched this right before we went to go see Inception in theaters. We like rewatched Memento at home.
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A
And then how high were you on that day?
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B
We were on Red Bull, but no other drugs. So close enough. But we went to like a midnight showing of Inception. So it was like this, oh, my gosh, from, you know, like 9 to 11. And then we went to go see Inception from midnight to whatever. So what a journey. It was a great evening.
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A
Had a great sound like it.
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B
This is a huge, of course, a huge call for a director. But I think what's interesting, you mentioned Brad Pitt. I think if you. If they had gotten Brad Pitt to be in this movie, then this becomes part of like a Brad Pitt mindfuck trilogy with seven with Fight Club. And so it becomes really clear when you think, I mean, like, they bleached Guy Pearce's hair. Like, they're clearly trying to invoke Brad here. Right. And so, in doing so, it's very clear that Nolan is trying, in a way, to make a Fincher movie here. And so there's a lot of smudgy fingerprints of all the things that he's interested in, in terms of, like, time and memory and all of the things that you've mentioned. And a lot of that formal, how do we mess with the flow of time or color versus black and white or different layers of reality? All that sort of stuff. Like, there's stuff that is undeniably Nolan, But I think it's really fun to watch as. As a young new filmmaker trying to sort of belong to a trend which then later, you know, and to a certain degree, when Nolan makes the Batman films, he's also trying to sort of be part of an existent. And then eventually we'll get to things that we just call, this is a Nolan movie.
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Yes.
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B
You know, that's not an honorific he had yet here at the beginning of his career. He's just trying to sort of like, you know, in Jonathan Nolan's idea of what if there's a guy who cannot form new memories.
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Yes.
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And then in Christopher Nolan's idea of what if I tell this story backwards?
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A
Amazing. Let's just put a.
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Put a hat on a hat and do that. So those two ideas combined create this incredible confection. But once again, he's sort of. It's fun to watch directors at the beginning of their career really sort of try to play in structures that were created by other people, buildings that were created by other people. And certainly Fincher is playing in buildings that were created by other people, and then slowly just sort of created landscapes, worlds, entire worlds that are their very own.
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A
I love that. And, you know, I think we've been getting at aspects of that as we've gone, because we haven't gone. We can pretend it was just deliberately that we were always intending to do the entire filmography and decided not to go in chronological order. But we started with, like, these are three movies, a couple of which have anniversaries last year, and one of which we just really want to talk about because we're talking about these others. And then we thought, the Odyssey is next year. Let's do them all. Right. And so we've had moments to consider, like, a version of that. But I really agree with you that this is a great moment to kind of present that Thesis more fully. Because what we were talking about a few minutes ago with these through lines, these undeniable strands of DNA that are like inextricable from all aspects of consideration. When Nolan is like, this is a story that I am drawn to and this is my version of it that I want to tell. But one of the things that is I think like so consistently intriguing about him as a filmmaker is that he does dabble in those different genres. And so you have here not only the other filmmakers who he admires, who their influence is present here, but then you, you know, you read these stories about like, oh, Soderbergh was like, I gotta help get this movie distributed, right? All of these things track and make sense. You have something like Dunkirk, which is a period piece. You have something like Oppenheimer, which is a historical drama at astonishing scale. So he has never ceased being interested in dabbling across different genres. And yet we did hit that point, as you noted, where it's like that becomes part of a Venn diagram. But the largest circle is like, this is a Nolan movie. The Nolan movies are always going to be another genre. I mean he's about to do the Odyssey. Like that's like the ultimate genre movie
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B
in a grand literary adaptation, a biopic, this that, you know, a World War II epic. Like all this sort of stuff and then. But. But they all in their own way and you know, we haven't seen the Odyssey. We don't know how it's. We know the story, but we don't know exactly how it's structured.
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A
But in, in there will be something funky.
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B
But in thinking about, you know, watching Memento and thinking about watching Leonard think about his wife, you know, watching Cobb think about his wife, you know, we know that like, you know, Odysseus is going to be thinking about his wife.
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You know, this is trying to get him.
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And like in terms of when does. When will we be flashing back to the war versus Odysseus's sort of adventures on the sea versus like what happens when he gets home, you know, in order. Will all of those stories be told?
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A
You know, there is zero chance that it is sequential.
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Non linear is what we would have to guess. And so that's exciting to me to think about that very.
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A
And like to be at the early days here where it's like smaller and cheaper and more street level. That feels so it's because they're early in their careers. It's out of necessity, it's practical at the time, but like it feels so appropriate because he's telling a. Like a gritty tale. Right. There's a thriller aspect. I am navigating the streets of my former life trying to figure out this thing.
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B
It's.
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A
There's a noir quality to it. Certainly the California setting is, like, helpful in that respect. It's not the last time, obviously, that Nolan was interested in somebody in the story or us as the audience engaging with a mystery. But when you get to, like, prestige a movie we both love and have already talked about, there are so many puzzle elements to that movie, much as there are here. It could not feel, like, more distinct in terms of the style of it than Memento does. And so his ability to, like, kind of strike that balance where each movie is a little bit new. Right. Obviously, we have, like, the Batman trilogy, but, you know, you have a space movie. They're all a little bit new in terms of the setting and the genre that they dabble in, but everything inside of them is unmistakably Nolan. Like, you can't watch one of these movies and not know that it's a Chris Nolan movie.
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B
I think also that something that we clocked, I think, initially when we were talking about Inception, this idea of legibility, how, however confusing and naughty with a K, the structure is right, you can follow what's happening. Cause there are clues that will help you, whether it's we're in black and white or we're in color. But also, it rewards rewatching. And this is something, you know, this is baked into the story we're watching here. When we see Leonard's wife talking about rereading a book and the pleasure of rereading a book, you know, and so Nolan's like, come rewatch my films, and if you rewatch, especially my, like, most mysterious films, you will see the answers were always there right at the beginning for you. Right. Leonard's wearing a suit that doesn't fit him right from the very beginning. You know, like, there are questions you can ask yourself from the very, very beginning of this movie.
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A
It fits him better than it should. But, yes, it is right away something that, you know, there's just a lot
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B
that's just right there at the very beginning of the movie for you that, upon rewatch, becomes more and more and more satisfying. And it's. It can be disorienting to watch a Kushner Nolan movie for the first time. But I don't think you're ever at sea so much that you can't follow the emotional reality of what's going on. And for this especially I would say in light of the idea of this fitting inside of the world of Fight Club or Seven two movies that I really, really like, but I don't feel as emotionally connected to as I do to this movie. And this is, you know, my ongoing thesis being that, like, when Jonathan and Chris work together, that is the perfect pairing of sentimentality and intellect to create this kind of story that I respond to best. And so I think Leonard's quest being so emotionally rooted in the pain of the loss of his wife and his inability to properly grieve her. Right. You know, how can I heal if I can't feel time? You know, like, all of these sort of ideas, um, that is stickier to me than some of the like, albeit very fun, sort of like, social critique aspects of particularly Fight Club, but also seven. But among all of those, those three stories, and a lot of what Nolan likes to tell after this is this idea of, can we ever know ourselves? Are we always the most unreliable narrator to ourselves? Right. And that's, you know, I love, you know, thinking about that when it comes to the prestige. Thinking about that when it comes to this movie, Leonard is. Is an unreliable narrator for us, but, like, more importantly, an unreliable narrator for himself.
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A
Yes. And it's one of the really indelible spoilers for the rest of the way, you know, one of the most indelible aspects of the movie. And I think there are honestly any point and stretch of the film you could say, like, this is the most memorable visual, or this is the line or idea, you know, it's part of. I'm excited about the categories today because I think it's the hard exercise yet in isolating a specific moment or scene. Because inherently, the nature of the way the movie is told is that the black and white sequences are moving chronologically in one direction. The color sequences are moving backwards, and they always overlap a little bit to give you that connective tissue to understand how they're being stitched together. But that bleed, it's, you know, like, anytime we get something wrong or forget something on the pod today, we just have the meta cover of, like. Well, it's just really. We're just, like, channeling Leonard's spirit here. But, you know, the fact that the choice. I agree with you. I think that the movie. Because the movie invites you to be such a sleuth as you're watching it, there's, like, a little bit of comfort that. That grants you understand right away that you're not supposed to understand right away. Right. And so trying to figure it out and piece it together is part of the fun. There's like a really kind of engaging, immersive, like almost experiential quality to watching Memento, certainly for the first time. But I agree with you. I think it's. I will say that was an interesting part of prepping for this pod was like revisiting some of the commentary around it when it first came out. And you know, if this were rewatchables, Bill would be pulling Ebert quotes and stuff. And like there's definitely a little bit of a. When I came back to it a second time, like it wasn't as fun. That's not my experience or your experience with it. And I don't think it will. It will be our listeners experience with it. I think it is such an interesting thing to like identify those strands and look for those clues on a rewatch.
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B
I agree. I can understand that, that like, if, if the biggest pleasure you derive was sort of the twist or something like that, then you're like, well, I know the twist, but that's not how you and I watch things.
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A
Exactly. Yeah. And I think like the, the way that structure serves as. I mean, this is a movie featuring mirrors in a number of respects. Right? Mirrors so that you can see backwards, tattoos, et cetera.
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B
Photographs.
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A
Photographs. Boy, what really makes you want to have a Polaroid and take pictures and the compressed Polaroid that like you can kind of wear as a little, A little purse. Great stuff. I love that.
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B
There's, you know, there's a number of times where he's like sort of adjusting it and it reminds me of like a gun hole.
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A
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually like, I had. It had been a few years since I had seen Memento. And so the first time I was rewatching this a couple weeks ago, like I had to pause. I was like, is that a. Because there are many guns in the film as well. And you're like, oh, no. Right. That's how he carries Polaroid. Really fun. But you know, the structure is putting us intentionally, deliberately in that mirror position for Leonard. Leonard can't remember more than the few moments he is inhabiting end his life before the injury. Right. That is his, to use his word, condition. And so the fact that we are watching those events backwards puts us in that exact spot that he's inhabiting. We only know what he knows in that moment. We can't, we can't know what came before because we haven't seen it yet. He can't know what came before because he can't Remember it. And that's just a really big, really brilliant and interesting choice that unlocks a degree of empathy for you as a viewer that then makes you either really destabilized by what happens at the end or complicit in it. And obviously, I think one of the things we'll talk about today is, like, where we stand on, you know, do you believe what Teddy says? One of the things that's interesting about the movie is kind of doesn't matter because Leonard makes the choice that he makes anyway to say, you're going to
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B
be my John G. Right?
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A
But it's just like, boy, it's fun, it's thematically rich, it's really well performed, and it's, like, very tidy and contained for a film with such big ideas and intention. Like, it's so compact compared to so many of Nolan's, like, sweeping grand epics that follow. It's really interesting to consider.
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B
And I think that to your point about the, you know, the shoestring budget and the compact nature, again, like Christopher Nolan, such a new filmmaker getting this movie made with, yeah, it's made on a shoestring. But Guy Pierce is coming off of LA Confidential. Carrie Moss is coming off the Matrix. Joe Pantoliano is coming off of the Matrix. You know, like, these are three actors who are coming off some of the buzziest films that ever were in the late 90s. And so there was a lot of shine and excitement to it. I remember. So this is like really early days of me reading movie blogs. This is like the beginning of being, like, someone who reads entertainment websites. And there was the one that I got sucked into because they had a robust Buffy vampire slayer message board. But the one I got sucked into was Canadian website called Corona. It was like Corona BC ca, I believe is the. Was. The URL does not exist anymore. I didn't even, like, go on the Wayback Machine. I should have to just poke around. But I, like, I. I was on there every day. That was like my entertainment website. And I was on the message boards and I wasn't like. I wasn't like it anyway, you know, I'm just reading. No, I would post a little bit, but, like, there, you know, in the early days of message boards, maybe this is still the case. Probably still the case in, like, certain subreddits or whatever. There are people who are like. You're like, oh, I remember that person. I was not like a memorable person on this. On these message boards. I was very. I was very young and very, like, new to the Internet. But what I remember is the first news write up I saw of this movie coming out, the guy who ran the website would just call it Autumn. He would just write it backwards all the time because of the structure of the story.
- [21:20]
A
I love it.
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B
And it was just like a bit that he did. And I just, like, that's how I say it in my head. I just say, really? Yeah. I say otnemem in my head.
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A
Oh, my God. It imprinted on you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I love knowing this about you. That's a beautiful memory.
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B
But. But I just think that, like. So Krisnel, early in his career, getting this movie made with the help of an idea germ from his brother, who was still in school, and his girlfriend, who is now his wife, and his enduring producing partner, Emma. Emma got this in front of the right people so that it could get made. So it's a family affair in every way. Emma gets a tattoo parlor named after herself in this movie.
- [22:00]
A
That's right.
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B
Yeah. But.
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A
But I love that.
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B
That it's just sort of like, made with the family structure around him that he still very much interacts with and relies upon. You mentioned the Brad Pitt of it all.
- [22:11]
A
Yes.
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B
Initially cast had to pass on it due to scheduling conflict. The Brad Pitt what if of was cast and Almost Famous and dropped out. So Billy Crudup says thank you very much and was cast in this and couldn't do it. And so Guy Pearce says, thank you so much for this, you know, building block of my career. An interesting what if for Brad Pitt here in 2000.
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A
I do. I mean, Brad Pitt's, you know, just obviously always great. I do think that we agree that Almost Famous just shouldn't be touched. So any kind of alternate history there is.
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B
I know, but I think about Sarah Pauley all the time. I love Kate Hudson as Penny Lane, but Sarah Pauley as Penny Lane is a different movie. And it's really intriguing to me.
- [22:54]
A
Yeah, I think. I do think, and I think Guy Pierce is wonderful as Leonard. Brad Pitt would have killed this.
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B
Brad Pitt would have killed this, but I think he would have just overshadowed it. It would have been a Brad Pitt movie. It would have been a Chris. I don't think it would have been as much of a calling card for Christopher Nolan. It would have burnished Brad Pitt's career.
- [23:12]
A
Or would even more people right away have discovered it because it was Brad Pitt? And even more people right away have said, like, oh, my God, what are these Nolan brothers up to?
- [23:20]
B
Some other options here. Charlie Sheen. Horrible.
- [23:23]
A
That's a no yeah.
- [23:24]
B
Alec Baldwin. Possible 2000. Alec Baldwin. I can see it.
- [23:27]
A
Interesting.
- [23:28]
B
Aaron Eckhart. Nolan will come back to him.
- [23:31]
A
He sure will. Yeah.
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B
Tom Jane, Honestly, I love Tom Jane.
- [23:35]
A
Like, if you think he would have been good. Yeah, yeah, he would have been good.
- [23:37]
B
If you think about, you know, the Expanse, like what Tom Jane does in the beginning of the Expanse, this is like, essentially the same role. So I'm a big Tom Jane fan personally. But Guy Peer is fantastic coming off of LA Confidential, so people are like, very used to him in this noir setting, his voiceover work in this. I was a huge Priscilla Queen of the Desert fan. So, Guy, I don't know if you've ever. Have you seen Priscilla Queen of the Desert?
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A
I don't think so.
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B
Oh, my God. Guy Pearce, Hugo Weaving, Terence Stamp. It is like one of the best movies that has ever. But Guy Pierce is doing something so entirely different that movie. So, like seeing Priscilla Cooney in the desert and then LA Confidential and then this, I was like, guy Pearce is going to be the biggest star alive star in the whole world. That didn't happen for him. And I'm curious. I'm curious if he's in enough. But, you know, despite it just being on the rewatchables, how rewatchable for younger generations is LA Confidential? Memento certainly is part of Nolan's filmography. Has to be like, sort of essential viewing for certain people and then like Killian mcu. Right. Iron Man. But there's. I was thinking about this, like, there wasn't. Like, there isn't a friend. You know, he's not in a Matrix or he wasn't in Lord of the Rings or, you know, like, there isn't. There isn't a thing that I know that everyone watches all the time, right?
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A
But even brutalist boys are. Are just eating. I mean, they're thriving.
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B
You know, he kills a Brutalist. Really good Prometheus fans are like, what are you talking about? It's Guy Pierce. But I don't know, I'm curious, like, what his hobbitsandragonsmail.com if you're a young listener of this podcast, do you know who Guy Pearce is?
- [25:19]
A
Oh, man, this is a sad question.
- [25:21]
B
You even have to ask. I think he should be, but I don't know.
- [25:24]
A
This bums me out. I love Guy Pearce. I've always loved him. And I'll save this for one of the categories that we have today, but I did find myself, really, especially because you get a few movies into Nolan's filmography, and as we have tracked across the pods. He uses so many of the same performers across his film. And I was like, boy, you know, who never showed up again. Turns out there's an answer for that, which we'll get to later in the pod. But he's just wonderful and I think he has, like, such a presence. I find his Leonard to be, like a really wonderful combination of heartwarming. And you feel so keenly and deeply for him so quickly. And there are these moments of just like grave despair. And then you watch him do these things and obviously he's navigating this life circumstances. So even when he does these things, you have this level of like, empathy and understanding and forgiveness. And then you get to the end and you're like, holy fuck. And he could just command all of that. I find the quality of the. Especially in the black and white sequences, the phone calls, there is a. And so much of the movie is just his voice. There is a, like, lullaby, like, hypnotic quality to the way that he is speaking in those scenes that really kind of heightens that effect of I'm sucked in. In full. This has my complete attention, but I'm also like. Like Leonard. While I just like, snap to and like, you know, there's just something that kind of like, lulls you.
- [26:52]
B
Yeah.
- [26:52]
A
Into this, like, hypnotic state. So that's just. That's really interesting. I think he's great. LA Confidential is one of my dad's favorite movies, like, ever. So, you know, that is one of my main associations. But I. I do think for me, with, you know, love and respect to Iron Man 3, I think memento is like my first association with Guy Pierce all these years later.
- [27:18]
B
It's not a bad one.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah.
- [27:20]
B
I honestly think the movie of his that I've seen the most is Priscilla Quinn in the Desert. But I think that any answer is a good answer for Guy Pearce. And I just. I do think that he should have been even bigger than he was. I think there's something about. Yeah, the timbre of his voice, the, you know, the slight what's going on there of his, like, sort of Australian English accent. That's part of it, you know, like, his American accent's very good, but there is just slightly off. There's specificity to have you speaking for this part of it that is very interesting. This played Venice Film Festival, then Tiff, then Sundance, which is in the model of Memento, A very unusual order for a movie to play. Like venison. Tiff is normal. But to go from Tiff to Sundance is like, that's usually the previous year would have played Sundance or something like that, but that is how we got it. And another fun fact that I think is just really interesting to think about at the time is that Jonathan Nolan designed the website for Memento, and they were going for a real, like, Blair Witch Project viral moment, which they will revisit again when they do the Dark Knight. You know, the Joker stuff was very inspired by this. But I just, like. It's just such of a moment of just like, we're making a mystery box movie. We've built a weird little website. You know, like, come, come enjoy. Come welcome into our world.
- [28:45]
A
You know, there are a lot of great little aspects of this film's, like, kind of early stretch of time. You know, the DVD menu, like, Leonard's tattoos, like, things that just feel.
- [28:57]
B
So you can unlock the chronological order
- [29:00]
A
if you play, if you get the
- [29:01]
B
right answers, some questions.
- [29:02]
A
Yeah. Which is like a great and smart way to include, like, a bonus feature on a dvd, if you wanted to watch this, like, in order. And, you know, it's interesting, too, to, like, hear Nolan talk over the years about, like. And this makes complete sense, crafting the story that way initially and then, of course, breaking it up and reordering it to actually make the movie, like. Yeah. You would need to understand what the story was in sequence. It's a fascinating thing. But watching it that way, which I've never done but would be interested to do.
- [29:29]
B
I've done it. Yeah.
- [29:30]
A
Would just be, like, such a radically different experience.
- [29:34]
B
I think it's an interesting experiment, but it's not like a more rewarding experience.
- [29:39]
A
Yeah. And I imagine it's like quite a bit, like, less rewarding, actually, as an experience, which then you start to get into how much of what makes the movie so effective is the story itself versus the structure. And that's, like, an interesting thing to consider. But then. And then, you know, I thought it. Because this was a Jonathan Nolan idea
- [29:57]
B
and story, and he did publish Memento Mori.
- [30:00]
A
Memento Mori, which, like, in just this recent stretch of time, makes me, of course, think right away of Ray Fiennes 28 years later. Wonderful, wonderful association to have with that incredible scene. The fact that that was published, even though the story existed and was the germ of this film that that was then published after, so it was nominated for Best Original Screenplay at the Academy Awards, is just like a fascinating kind of meta. Like a fascinating little bit of sequencing there that it's just like an interesting little nugget in the history of the film.
- [30:30]
B
Something I've mentioned a couple times when going through this Nolan filmography, especially for the Jonah Nolan movies that we've covered, is that when I was trying to unlock the mystery of season one of Westworld, I spent a lot of time studying Jonathan Nolan's other stories to really help me understand, like, what he was most interested in. These theses, and I think Inception, Prestige and this movie were incredibly instructive to me in understanding I don't need to spoil Westworld season one for anyone. Even though you cannot find Westworld anymore, it, like, has kind of. Yeah, it's not on HBO anymore.
- [31:09]
A
Is that true?
- [31:10]
B
Yeah, it's, like, Vanished.
- [31:11]
A
What?
- [31:11]
B
That's true.
- [31:12]
A
Oh, no.
- [31:13]
B
Kai Grady and I were looking for it the other day because we were both, like, we're the only ones we know who, like, watched all of Westworld, but geez, the. The mystery of season one of Westworld is so twisty and fun, and I will not spoil it for people. But in order to figure it out before it was revealed on the show, which was something, you know, I was only able to do because I would, like, study. And so, like, when. When you watch Leonard talk about memory and memory and healing and the way in which his memory prevents him from processing his grief or feeling understanding love in the passage of time, where you think about in Interstellar. I think I said Inception earlier. I meant Interstellar. When you think about Interstellar and you think about Anne Hathaway's character talking about love as this force that stretches across galaxies and stuff like that. And then you watch Westworld, and without spoiling what the twist is, you watch someone struggle with their memory and flashes of memory and sort of disassociating into different parts of their own timeline. It's just fascinating to me that these ideas were here from the very beginning for these brothers and for Jonathan Nolan especially. So when I think about what is the piece of art that was most influenced by Memento, I think it might be Westworld, actually, which, again, I don't know how enduring that is, but it was a huge. Like, the first season is incredible, massive, and, like, incredibly good. And I'm really grateful that it exists, and I don't think it exists without this movie existing. So. And that idea is still kicking around inside of his head.
- [32:54]
A
You know, I love that, and I like having the Jonathan Nolan version of that. Given how much time we've emphasized that idea for Christopher Nolan, you know, what are the through lines, even in a different form and, like, you know, memory. This is such a specific way to explore a specific challenge with memory. Like, Leonard has gone through a trauma and an emotional one and a physical one, and cannot form new memories.
- [33:23]
B
Right. But can create lies for himself.
- [33:26]
A
But can and. And. And everything about the cond. The way the film explores conditioning and the habits.
- [33:31]
B
That's what I mean.
- [33:32]
A
Like the.
- [33:32]
B
Remember Sammy Jenkins, like, sort of like, lie that he concocts for himself that he can. Upon repetition, you know, only every time I see it, like, do you tell me that story? He has conditioned himself into this thing. I think that's the most fascinating thing, is, like, you can't form new memories, but you can form a new lie. A false. You can plant a false memory.
- [33:52]
A
Yeah. And you can form the parameters for how you navigate your circumstance. Right. And the things that you tell other people in yourself. And so, like, you know, memory as a concept to explore and a thing to play with, and specifically a lens to then examine questions of, like, well, who are you? Based on what your connection to your own memory is? And I love the way, like, this will come up in some of the categories, but, like, when Leonard kind of tears down memory and props up fact as, like, a, you know, champions fact as the. The thing that you can really put your trust in, and then you come to understand, like, what it means to think that way. But, like, you know, there are so many different reasons that a person's memory can be affected. Right. Illness, trauma, injury, technology. Like, the way that you explore what happens. Debilitating fatigue.
- [34:39]
B
Some of us are just huffing creatine to try to preserve our crumbling brains, you know?
- [34:44]
A
Exactly. So, like, this is such a specific rendering of it, but it does tap into larger questions. And I love. I love that more broadly, as we. We've talked about this many times over the years, a number of podcasts, like, you know, and Black Mirror Pods, talking about, like, an episode, like, Play Test or something, which is not my favorite Black Mirror episode, but is one I really admire because, you know, this question of, like, can you trust your own mind? Is always of a fascinating one because, like, what does it mean if you can't? And how do you navigate that? And there are obviously really devastating things that people can go through as they are grappling with that. And it can happen slowly, and you can be really aware of it, or it can happen just instantly, and you have no ability to, like, even understand what has happened until it has. You know, it's like, one of the
- [35:26]
B
more
- [35:28]
A
unmooring aspects of your humanity that you could have to, like, learn to relate to and Assess in a new way. And so the fact that Leonard is such a active interrogator of his own memory is, like, one of the things that makes this such a unique way to explore what memory means. He is consciously aware of it as he could possibly be.
- [35:49]
B
No, but he is and he isn't. Because, like, you watch him set up these parameters for himself, and then you watch someone on the phone just be like, he's actually a drug dealer, and he just like, scratches out his own note. Just takes the, you know, never answer the phone, but just like, takes the word of someone. Like, we watch him be led by Natalie, by all these people. You know what I mean?
- [36:08]
A
For sure. I mean, just, he is aware that he can't form new memories. Like, he is aware of his core circumstance or his condition. And that awareness guides every choice he makes, however passively or actively.
- [36:20]
B
I hear how we're, like, agreeing and disagreeing, but I do think there is just like such a. His certainty of, like, poor Sammy couldn't do these things, but I figured out a system, so I'm fine. So there's like a. There's an awareness, but then there's just this self delusion of just, like, all the ways in which he is just, like, completely unselfaware.
- [36:37]
A
Yes.
- [36:38]
B
And again, how can any of us actually be aware of ourselves? And I think that that is something that Christopher Nolan especially really believes, is that we are all delusional and we all cannot see ourselves clearly. And all of these great men, you know, when we talk about Oppenheimer, when we talk about all these other things, just sort of like, there are things that Oppenheimer, let's say, as a person, is aware of the things that he. The damage that he has done to the world that he is aware of, that weighs heavy on him. And then there are personal actions that he has enacted that he just sort of completely blind to.
- [37:09]
A
That's the dissonance that I think is so rich. Leonard is aware on an almost like, intellectual, like, theoretical level of the context of a circumstance, but he is not aware of his own ability to navigate that, because how could he, based on the specifics of this condition, but also because how can any person be right? And so, like, you get to something like Teddy saying at the end, sammy, gonna throw this out there. Like, it was your wife who needed the insulin. Right. It was your wife who was a diabetic. And the way that you flash to this pinch of the thigh that we'd seen previously, and then we see it with the insulin syringe and then we flash back again to the pinch, and Leonard's like, no, but the seed of doubt. A seed of doubt he won't retain in a couple minutes. Still has the ability to, like, completely destabilize him in that moment is fascinating, honestly.
- [38:10]
B
My favorite line delivery of the whole movie is Joey Pants. When he's like, my wife wasn't a diabetic. He goes, you sure?
- [38:18]
A
Yeah. I mean, joey Pants is so fucking good in this movie.
- [38:21]
B
You sure? And he kind of smiles at him in a way that's just, like, so diabolical. It's the best.
- [38:26]
A
He's amazing. Yeah.
- [38:28]
B
Anything else do you want to say, sort of broadly, before we get into, you know, there's a lot we can sort of.
- [38:32]
A
Yeah, no, I don't think so.
- [38:34]
B
When it comes to our categories.
- [38:35]
A
Let's get to our categories.
- [38:36]
B
All right. Memento top 15. A combination of superlatives and other sundries.
- [38:40]
A
Lovely. When you host with cut water, canned cocktails. Expect company, entertain effortlessly. Cut water, real cocktails, perfectly mixed. Copyright 2026 Cut Water Spirits, San Diego, CA.
- [38:55]
B
Enjoy responsibly. All right, we've shaved a few categories off because this doesn't, you know, not all of the broader Nolan sort of big, grand set piece ideas fit here in this movie. Though I will say he said that he intentionally shot the motel. You know, there's a couple motels in this movie, but the main motel in this movie, to look like an M.C. escher drawing, like, where you just, like, are constantly confronted by, like, stairs and railings and all this sort of stuff like that, and doors and, you know, Leonard's in two different rooms inside of the same motel, if. If only two, perhaps more, et cetera, et cetera. And so, you know, he's trying to make a Penrose staircase out of just an ordinary motel that he has, you know, only a couple mil to shoot at and stuff like that.
- [39:44]
A
Where's Arthur to come in and say, paradox, bitch?
- [39:46]
B
Paradox bitch. All right, first category. Why so serious? Funniest line or moment of the movie?
- [39:55]
A
So it's not the funniest film, but it does. There are funny moments.
- [39:59]
B
I have a couple answers.
- [40:00]
A
Yeah, there are funny moments. So I had one Natalie nominee, and I have two Teddy contenders here. So I will go as my main pick before I hit the. The two runners up with When Leonard finds Teddy, like, waiting, reclined in the Jag and says, you're still here because of Natalie.
- [40:22]
B
Leonard says, who's Natalie?
- [40:23]
A
And the way that Joey pants as Teddy says, schmuck, Whose house do you think you just like? Something about that schmuck just kills me. And then Leonard pulls out the Polaroids and Teddy says, oh, that's right. Take a look at your pictures. I bet you got one of her. And then looks at it. Oh, nice shot. Leaving. It's just incredible. It's really hysterical. It's like vintage Joey pants. So that is my. My pick. What is your. What is your winner here?
- [40:52]
B
I mean, I think the most obvious one for me is I don't think they'd let someone like me carry a gun.
- [40:57]
A
That's my runner up.
- [40:58]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:59]
A
And then.
- [40:59]
B
I fucking hope not from Teddi.
- [41:02]
A
That's my runner up.
- [41:02]
B
It's so good on the gun front, though. Nothing except the Gideon Bible where he pulls a door open and there's just a gun there. Great moment.
- [41:11]
A
Genuinely great moment. And then I also.
- [41:12]
B
I think it's really funny, even though it's, like, very, like, sad and scary when Natalie just hides all the pens, when she just takes all the pens with her and you don't know, like, for the first time, you don't really know sort of like, like, why she's doing it or what she's done or whatever. But when you rewatch, I just think it's like, like, very smart and really good. She's grabbed.
- [41:30]
A
She grabbed him with the quickness. My Natalie nominee is when they're at the cafe and it's like, so you have information for me? Is that what your little note says? Yeah. And then she says, must be tough living your life according to a couple scraps of paper. You mix your laundry list with your grocery list and you'll end up eating your underwear for breakfast.
- [41:46]
B
Very good.
- [41:46]
A
Tough feedback, but anything else well delivered? Nah, those were my. That was my top three.
- [41:51]
B
Karin Moss is really good at this movie, okay?
- [41:54]
A
She is.
- [41:54]
B
You either die here or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Who is the real villain of this movie?
- [42:00]
A
What's your pick?
- [42:03]
B
Our healthcare system.
- [42:06]
A
Yeah. The insurance system.
- [42:07]
B
Yeah, the health care.
- [42:08]
A
The.
- [42:09]
B
The health insurance.
- [42:09]
A
That's a great one.
- [42:10]
B
Yeah. I might be living out with a pit too much, but I'm just sort of like. I was like, oh, this is. This is an indictment of health insurance.
- [42:19]
A
Yeah, it's the. The flashes to Leonard and the Jankis family are quite distressing. Whatever level of reliability or unreliability is actually at play there. The scene in particular where, like, she visits him at the office and he's like, we shouldn't even be talking, and this and that. That was just. Just. It's all quite upsetting.
- [42:44]
B
Yeah.
- [42:46]
A
Mine is just sort of like the thing we've talked about a lot already, which is just memory. But more specifically, the way that memory is not presented is just like this haloed thing. You know, the fact that we get to see from all angles. Well, okay, you see somebody who is struggling to grapple with the absence of the ability to form new memories. But then that person, Leonard, is saying, like, when he basically lectures Teddy about memories, not even, like, not perfect, not even good. And then, of course, I think of something like the Affair, you know, and how we get, like, to see how unreliable memory is.
- [43:22]
B
For me, it's Westworld. For you, it's the Affair. The Urtex we will always come back to.
- [43:26]
A
Exactly. And Leonard's like, facts, not memories. That's how you investigate.
- [43:29]
B
I know.
- [43:29]
A
It's what I used to do. Look, memory can change the shape of a room. It can change the color of a car. And memories can be distorted. They're just an interpretation. They're not a record, and they're irrelevant if you have the facts and you have moments where, like, Natalie Teddy, across different parts of the film, say to Leonard, a version of, like, you're not even gonna remember this if you do it. Like, if you get the vengeance you seek, will you even feel it? And, you know, very rewarding on a rewatch to see those seeds planted really early, knowing where we're going and the choice Leonard will make at the very end to haunt Teddy, to hunt John G. But this idea that memory is this missing thing that has radically altered his life and also something that saying, not only do I not need it, it is less helpful and less reliable and less sure than the fact that I can write on a paper and learn to trust my own handwriting. And, like, that is a warped idea that leads him to a very dark place. And so the way that we look at memory from all angles, depending on whose vantage point we're in in a given moment and who is, like, espousing a certain idea. But then, even when inside of one perspective, like Leonard's, we. We see a different relationship to that at the end is really fascinating.
- [44:41]
B
The something, a fact that I learned that I didn't know before preparing for this pod is the license plate. That Teddy's license plate throughout this movie is two different license plates that Christopher Nolan swapped out on the car. And in one, it's the letter I, U at the end, and the other, it's the number one in you. Because Leonard writes down the license plate. And he just draws a straight line. Yes.
- [45:11]
A
Yeah.
- [45:11]
B
And the tattoo artist interprets that as a one. But on the license plate, on the DMV thing, it's an I. But physically, the license plate in the color timeline is both, which is just like a fun little detail of just like, hey, guys, what's reality? What's real? Anyway, I love it. The other. Oh, the motel industrial complex, Bert. All right.
- [45:37]
A
Oh, man.
- [45:37]
B
Are you watching closely? The most exquisitely gorgeous shot. Wally Pfister, you know, longtime collaborator of Christopher Nolan, is on this movie here. It's the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Yes. What do you want to call out here?
- [45:51]
A
Okay, so I am going with a bookend, but it's a joint pick. It's the. Both of my picks are Polaroid moments. A Polaroid early and a Polaroid late. So the opening. Just the opening visual of the film that starts over the opening credits, the visual of the Polaroid, you know, the hand is shaking it. It's the peak of just the jankus. Like, you don't really know. You don't know yet, but you're starting to see things. And the way that the Polaroid is rewinding out of clarity, out of focus, out of development, it's a visual primer for us of, like, the way the movie is gonna work. Right. What the logic of the movie is gonna be. It's obviously very like, whoa, what am I watching right away? There's the mystery of, like, what you're actually seeing in the Polaroid. That's a lot of blood. You know, whose body is that? Like, all of the questions right away. And again, the peak of the tattoo, because the Polaroids, the tattoo, the notes, there are all of these different aspects of the visual language, the tapestry of the film. And so you're getting a lot of that right away. And it's also just fucking cool and really memorable. And then at the end, the Polaroid is what melds the timelines with Jimmy G. When we're looking in at the Jimmy G black and white Polaroid. And as it is developing, it, merging, morphs into color, and the timelines have connected at last. And that's, you know, there's like, maybe, like the first one is just the beginning of the movie. That's like, maybe like 10ish minutes left at the movie. But it's basically the end of the film.
- [47:15]
B
Yeah.
- [47:16]
A
And so the way that the Polaroids are visually deployed at the beginning and end to tell us how the time of the movie is going to function and also just Looks so, like, distinct and specific to this film. It's just great.
- [47:28]
B
Does the bullet casing going into the gun give you tenet flashbacks?
- [47:34]
A
I mean, now it does. Yeah, now it does. No, it gives me tenet hype and excitement to revisit that film that I have very little attachment to currently.
- [47:42]
B
I mean, I think the Polaroid is the right answer. It is just so iconic and the way it's used differently at the beginning of the end. But for me, I think it's the flash of Lenny and Sammy's seat. Like, when you see Stephen Tobolowski, Sammy, in the chair in the institution and someone walks and, like, for just a few frames, it's Guy Pierce as Lenny in the. In the seat. And it's just sort of like. It's so quick blinking, you might miss it. Gotta watch this back at home, you know, to sort of make sure. But, like, what that tells us about the story. And also that idea of, like, even before you understand that perhaps, according to Teddy, at least, Lenny's the one who killed his wife via insulin overdose. That idea of, like, pretending to recognize, you know, like, Stephen Topolowski is so good as Sammy. Like, really good casting, I think. But just sort of that sort of, like, puppy dog look on his face as people walk by because he can't remember everything. But he's just, like. Is pretending to, like, to get that pat on the head, as the voiceover tells us. But then you have Lenny, like, sitting in that chair and you think about the way in which. Even before. Again, even before he better understands the way in which he's blurred these stories in his mind. This is something that I've learned to do to cope in the world, to be less embarrassed by the way my memory works. You pretend, yeah, devastating. Okay. I can't remember to forget you. The scene you think about the most.
- [49:21]
A
This is a good example of a category that's just really hard for this movie, I think. But again, I went with something early in the film that I think is not only just excellent in and of itself but is such an effective primer for what the movie is gonna be and also such a lasting aspect of how you think about what it was. So I'm going with the first full glimpse of Leonard's tattoo torso and arms and legs as he is studying.
- [49:49]
B
He's studying.
- [49:49]
A
He gets. He opens the envelope. He's studying John G's license. And then he's looking at all of his tattoos and, you know, recounting the information and the facts to himself. And then this Is the stretch where on the heels. He has just explained to us his system and looked at this information. And then he goes to change. He sees everything. And then he will write, kill him. This is the, like, in this stretch, the path to writing. Yeah, it's you. I found you, you fuck. Writing. He is the one. And then kill him. And we get to see, you know, as he is refreshing on this and we are seeing for the first time. John G. Raped and murdered my wife. Find him and kill him. She is gone. Time still passes. Consider the source. Memory is treachery. Don't trust your weakness.
- [50:28]
B
Eat.
- [50:29]
A
Which he has placed strategically right above his own dick. I guess the idea is that that's where he's, like, definitely gonna look every day.
- [50:35]
B
You know, if his tummy is rumbling and he's like, oh, I should eat, maybe, would you get eat tattooed on
- [50:42]
A
your pubic bone in a very different. For very different reasons in a very different context. You know, it's multifunctional, which is, I guess, good for Leonard, something to think about.
- [50:52]
B
I love that you felt like that. You need to clarify that. As if that's not exactly what I was talking about. In what font would you get the word eat attached?
- [50:59]
A
I've got some notes on Leonard's font. Obviously, he's doing some of these himself, and then he's going to the parlor for some.
- [51:04]
B
That's another, like, stick and poke.
- [51:06]
A
Yeah, for us. Yeah. The snapping of the pen to get the ink and the sterilizing. For us, for people who have any familiarity with, like, tattoos and the healing process, you know, you can see the very raw red in certain areas. You're like, that's fresh, right? So many of these are. They're healed, right? You know, they're like. Your tattoo artist is posting this on Instagram. Like, caught a healed one, you know, so, you know, like, time has passed right away. But then we see the facts, right? Male, white, first name John or James, last name G. Drug dealer. That's one of the very, very fresh ones. Car, license number, et cetera. So he thinks he's pieced this together. And it's just so harrowing because not only are we like, okay, wow, this is how the movie is gonna function. This is what the visual language of the film and the journey of discovery, repeat on repeat, right inside of these scenes is gonna be. But there's something that's just so indelible about that kind of glimpse of the landscape. Using your own body as your notepad for these facts that you're amassing and you wonder, it's such an effective way really quickly in the film to make you think, what would this person have had to go through to get to this point?
- [52:09]
B
Right.
- [52:09]
A
What is his reality that he's raped, like.
- [52:12]
B
Yeah, on his, like, collarbone. You know what I mean?
- [52:15]
A
One button off your shirt, it's like the first thing anyone sees, Right.
- [52:18]
B
Like, it's what Natalie is confronted with when she wakes up. That word.
- [52:21]
A
Yeah. What does that tell you so quickly about his life?
- [52:26]
B
What is written forwards and what is written backwards and what is written like upside down or, you know, right side up and all that sort of stuff like that. The one that really kills me is the first name John or, or James. Because it feels really clear because the or James is in a different, you know, handwriting. So it just seems really clear to me that like Teddy wanting to expand his options for like drug dealers that they can go after is like, call them one day was just like. Or it's James. You know, let's just add other J names to your arm in perpetuity. What's going to happen to Lenny now that Teddy's no longer there to like, lead him around by the nose? Like, what's.
- [52:58]
A
That's a great question. And what'll. I guess he'll keep, he'll keep finding weight because his, his, his purpose is completely entwined with being able to go on this, like perpetual hunt. Right. To seek this vengeance endlessly. So I guess he is at the point where he will find a way to generate that for himself. I thought you were gonna ask what happens when Teddy, when Leonard runs out of skin, like, does he have to start getting tattoos removed so that he has fresh patches to then tattoo again? He's.
- [53:26]
B
His whole back is clear. He's got a lot of real estate.
- [53:28]
A
I mean, at a certain point though, he's gonna run out. He's gonna run out the.
- [53:33]
B
I mean, maybe he'll die before that. Yeah, maybe don't just come back to town again, like really sketchy plan and just be like, get out of town diamond.
- [53:40]
A
That, that part makes no sense. My guy Leo been though. Always great to see him. Always great to see him.
- [53:46]
B
All right, my answer for this is. So Harriet Sansom Harris, who plays Mrs. Jenkiss, who is like a, perhaps a complete construction of Lenny's own mind. I love this actress. She was a long running guest star in Frasier, but she's also incredible in the Phantom thread.
- [54:08]
A
She's just a great.
- [54:10]
B
Wherever she shows up, I think she's so good in this movie. I Think she runs away with a lot of the movie for me, but it's just the scene where she dies, even if it's a fake memory, just again. And I also think Stephen Tobolowski is really good. So just sort of like his, you know, cheerful and her despair, you know,
- [54:39]
A
winding the clock hand every time.
- [54:40]
B
And then just sort of like his absolute desolation once she's dead, you know, and his bewilderment or even earlier, like, when she's sort of like frustratedly yelling at him and he's just like confused and upset and all this sort of stuff like that, or, you know, this is, this is, this is a classic smuggle. But like, honestly, any of her scenes when she goes to talk to Lenny in his office, you know, what I mean, is asking about her husband. But, but I think for me it's. It's. It's, you know, time for my shot. Time for my shot. Time for my shot. You know, it's just like that. I think about that a lot.
- [55:13]
A
Yeah, it's really upsetting. I love, I love those scenes because they, like. I mean, I don't know that the much about the movie is subtle, but, like, you know, meme bracket complimentary.
- [55:25]
B
Right.
- [55:25]
A
Like, I, I. That her character in particular ask the question of, like, well, what would you be able to tolerate, really, like, if you were being honest with yourself? Because the fact that the relationship that is presented to us is rooted in love. Right. That it's like the framing is the reason it is so hard is because I look at him and I recognize the person who I love. And he is able to do these things for me that stem from care and preservation and a nurturing spirit inside of this partnership. But we can't break through beyond that. So the idea that the thing that keeps you together, your affection and your desire to help each other would be the thing that made it impossible for you, even though you still love that person, to actually accept and like that it would be really hard is a. Even inside of the fiction and unreliability of the film feels like just a true novel about interrogating, like, what people are, what people want to believe that they're capable of. And then what it looks like to actually try to navigate something that is. Is really challenging. So I love that aspect of it too.
- [56:33]
B
Swear to me this movie is rated R, but still, if you could add. So, like, unlike a lot of the other one, which is rated R, so, like, it's not at a loss for swear words, but we've been enjoying adding Swear words to other Chris Rollin movies. So I just thought we would. Would do it here as well. So if you could add an extra F bomb or any other swear, where would you put it?
- [56:51]
A
Yeah, this was hard because there are so many. There are so many fuck utterances in this film. And so, like, any scene that I thought, oh, this would be a good candidate, someone sets up inside of that very scene. But even so, I will go with Bert in the like, oh, I've been found out with my multiple hotel rooms. He does actually say, I fucked up in that scene. But later, a few lines later when they're leaving the room. Leonard, always get a fucking receipt.
- [57:19]
B
Yeah, that would be my nominee.
- [57:21]
A
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna write that down. Always get a fucking receipt.
- [57:24]
B
And then he doesn't. Yeah, I think Mark Boone Jr. Is really good as Bert. I think. Talk about bookend lines or bookend Polaroids. I think. Where the fuck was I? As, like, a final line of this movie. I don't know. I actually have two minds about it because, like, it's a line that I wouldn't mind a little pepper on. But also, like, now where. Where was I? Is so innocent and just sort of like nowhere, like, so casual. Now where was I? Yes, because, like, all the agitation of the previous minutes are gone.
- [58:03]
A
Right.
- [58:03]
B
So I kind of.
- [58:04]
A
Yeah, there's like a return to a state.
- [58:07]
B
Nagging. My own answer. But that was my best answer that
- [58:10]
A
I came up with with. I like it.
- [58:13]
B
Amateur. Seek the sun, get eaten. Power stays in the shadows. Stealth. MVP of this movie that not enough people talk about.
- [58:19]
A
I thought this was hard because I think so many aspects of this film are widely celebrated.
- [58:26]
B
So it's like, what, you know, what haven't we explored?
- [58:28]
A
Yeah. And this is the type of category where we'd normally be like, the editing, but it's like, you know, we're talking Oscar nom here. Right. And you can't talk about the film without talking about the editing, things like that. I don't think it would be a good faith argument to pretend that people don't talk about the Polaroids as an iconic aspect of this film. But I will. My pick will be inside of that. Specifically, just the. The image choice in each photo. Like the actual facial expression or positioning. You know, the big, broad smile on Lenny's face and the blood on his body. And we're like, what's. What has been captured here? Exactly. Or the fact that the Natalie Polaroid is opaque and obscured and, like, kind of like dappled in sun to the point where it's almost in shadow.
- [59:11]
B
You know, the mugging would never.
- [59:12]
A
Honestly, I know the mugging that Teddy is doing. So just, like, the specific. Because in the flow of the film, you know, Leonard is just like, hey, you know. And sometimes he's like. Teddy's like, well, let me move over here. And there's more of a kind of active pose. And sometimes he just takes a picture of Natalie before she even realizes what's happening. But then what the film is communicating through the. The actual image that has been captured of each of those people I really like. And then especially because, you know, you get the, like, oh, you gotta burn it. You get the kind of crumpled. But you see, like. Oh, there's, like, a part of a body that you can still identify. And what are we. What mystery are we gonna unravel next? Like, I wanted to just say, like, Joey Pants, because I think he's the best, but I don't think that would be stealth necessarily.
- [59:54]
B
No, no, no. My answer is twofold.
- [59:58]
A
Okay.
- [59:59]
B
The bleach job on Guy Pierce is doing a lot of work. I have a lot of questions about it, though, because it's not even, like, trying to be realistically blonde. It just looks like a bleach job. So how often does he have a tattoo somewhere that's like, remember to bleach your roots? Like, sure. But he has the blonde hair in the flashbacks as well, so he was always bleaching his hair.
- [60:17]
A
Yeah, neatly gelled.
- [60:18]
B
Yeah, neatly gelled over. But, like, again, that felt very like Brad Pitt, Jason or something like that. But, yeah, the bleach job on. On. On. Lenny is. Is doing a lot of good work just to put us in this sort of, like, dirt bag, late 90s, early aughts, sort of noir era. But also, my honest answer is whatever pen he's using to write on the Polaroid that is inky enough that it, like, looks nice but does not smudge.
- [60:50]
A
It doesn't.
- [60:51]
B
It never smudges. It's not a ballpoint.
- [60:54]
A
It. It's.
- [60:54]
B
It's a felt tip. But it doesn't smudge on the Polaroid.
- [60:57]
A
It's important.
- [60:58]
B
What is. What miracle pen is this?
- [61:01]
A
That's a great question. And where's the note that reminds him exactly which pen type that he likes best?
- [61:05]
B
I'm sure he's somewhere.
- [61:07]
A
Yeah, no question. That's a great pick. I love all of the penmanship aspects, like the fact that we learn. He's gotta learn to trust your own handwriting. Right. And then the way that, like, he writes he uses cursive.
- [61:17]
B
He uses, you know, do not trust her.
- [61:19]
A
Yeah. So that he could. It's convert. When he sees it later, he'll know to cross it out, that it's not legit. Like, that stuff is all. That's great.
- [61:24]
B
Great. All right.
- [61:27]
A
You're waiting on a train.
- [61:28]
B
A train that will take you far away. Best dead wife moment.
- [61:33]
A
Crowded field.
- [61:36]
B
Oh, my God.
- [61:37]
A
Okay, I have a pick. And then a couple runners up after you give your pick.
- [61:43]
B
Completely wild.
- [61:44]
A
This is astonishing stuff.
- [61:45]
B
I
- [61:48]
A
will put a pin in it and come back to it when we finish the whole rewatch. But I think there's a chance that this stands the test of time as the ultimate winner of this category at the very end. Because it is just a quote about how cool it is to have a dead wife. And I would like to read it to you now. Teddy laying into Lenny about his Nick. To have a dead wife. Like, man, oh, you're just like. You're whiny. You gotta always keep seeking. And here's what he says. All you do is moan. I'm the one that has to live with what you've done. I'm the one that put it all together. You. You wander around. You're playing detective. You're living a dream, kid. A dead wife to pine for. A sense of purpose to your life. A romantic quest that you wouldn't end even if I wasn't in the picture. A character in this movie, Joey Pants's Teddy, says out loud in a Christopher Nolan film. You're living the dream, man. You got a dead wife.
- [62:48]
B
So sick to have a dead wife.
- [62:50]
A
Look at all that purpose. Whoa. Look at all that purpose, bro.
- [62:52]
B
Such pining your wife.
- [62:54]
A
You get to pine.
- [62:55]
B
Such quest.
- [62:55]
A
Your dead wife goals.
- [62:58]
B
Wild. Oh, my God. Extraordinary stuff.
- [63:03]
A
Just incredible.
- [63:07]
B
So I'm. I'm gonna bleed this into my next category because actually, okay, I think Georgia Fox, who plays the aforementioned dead wife, is the person I would recast in this movie.
- [63:16]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [63:17]
B
Yeah.
- [63:18]
A
I think that's a good pick.
- [63:18]
B
I think it's a tough. You know, unlike Marion Cotillard in Inception, she doesn't even, like. She has like, one scene where she gets lines. You know what I mean? It's just like. Yeah, so it's just a lot of, like, you know, and Georgia Fox was in CSI at this moment. You know, like, she was some. She was an identifiable TV face, a West Wing CSI face that you could put in this movie. I just don't think she conveys dead wife to pine for in her performance here.
- [63:48]
A
Tough feedback.
- [63:48]
B
She's beautiful. She's beautiful, but, like, I don't feel like, in the sort of, like, romantic. I've seen many a dead wife paraded through the Nolan filmography, and this is, I think, maybe one of the most lackluster for you.
- [64:01]
A
This dead wife doesn't rate.
- [64:02]
B
She just doesn't do it for me. You know, maybe he should have said when Joey. When Joey Pants is like a dead wife to pine for. He's like, yeah, but I mean, a lesser dead wife. Honestly, in the list of dead wives, Georgia Fox is a great live woman in certain things, but I don't think she's. She's crushing in the dead wife. Dead wife exists in flashbacks only.
- [64:20]
A
Honestly, an incredible take.
- [64:22]
B
Also, I don't understand why a woman with her hair texture would brush her hair with a. With a boar bristle round brush. That's just her hairbrush. A boar bristle round brush. Nobody was on set to tell the Nolans this is not the brush that she would use. Really? Like, when that sex worker was like. And he's like, don't use it. She's like, listen, I don't want to.
- [64:45]
A
You know what this would do to
- [64:46]
B
my crunchy blonde curls. Bad things.
- [64:49]
A
Yeah. More enthusiasm for asking if she should wear the bra. And ultimately, like, really pushing to keep using the brush. Just put it around the room as though, you know, they were, like, your thing.
- [65:00]
B
So, yeah, I'm gonna, I guess, you know, late breaking. I think I am gonna give it to Asking a prostitute to strew your dead wife's items around the room.
- [65:10]
A
It's a choice.
- [65:10]
B
Unless you just place the clock and the book and the brush somewhere, not to mention flung the bra somewhere.
- [65:18]
A
Teddy bear.
- [65:19]
B
Yeah, the teddy bear.
- [65:20]
A
The teddy bear.
- [65:22]
B
Mallory, if I ever die and you need to collect, like, a few of my possessions to remember me by, please let it not be a teddy bear.
- [65:30]
A
What should it be?
- [65:31]
B
There's so many options.
- [65:32]
A
Faramid.
- [65:34]
B
Yeah, well, no, the mead's gone, but, like, definitely some books. For sure.
- [65:38]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [65:38]
B
There's, like, plenty of items.
- [65:40]
A
Claudius the God and his wife. But I would.
- [65:42]
B
Yeah, not that book necessarily, but I would say not. I mean, I do have a teddy bear that I've owned since I was a child, but it, like, exists in, like, a chest that I have with, like, blankets that I had as a child, but it's not, like, a thing that I cradle and own and. And cherish. It's just like a relic of my childhood.
- [65:58]
A
I'll find other items.
- [65:59]
B
I'm Committing now, I don't think. You know, despite her questionable hair brushing technique, I don't think she was, like, cradling that teddy bear around.
- [66:06]
A
I'm very confused.
- [66:07]
B
Well, it is.
- [66:08]
A
You know, he does kind of say when he's burning things, how much of your. Yeah, how many times have I done this?
- [66:13]
B
Breaking the bottom of the barrel.
- [66:15]
A
We're deep into the possessions, though. The fact that the book, this prized and sacred thing is there.
- [66:21]
B
It's an interesting reread, honestly. But also, how many cars has he just abandoned with more of her stuff in it? You know what I mean?
- [66:29]
A
Great question.
- [66:30]
B
Was there other stuff in the truck?
- [66:32]
A
These tracks are fresh, like bullets on the seat.
- [66:35]
B
I don't know.
- [66:35]
A
How many of my dead ones.
- [66:37]
B
Does he still have that house?
- [66:39]
A
You know, I wondered about that as well.
- [66:41]
B
Does he go back and pilfer more items?
- [66:43]
A
Some nice natural light in there, I thought.
- [66:45]
B
Lovely.
- [66:45]
A
You know, the book scene is. You know, we already talked about it, but that was one of my runners up. Just because it is, like, the parallel to Leonard's own experience when you're like, how much of this experience of reading this book is about what you remember and obtain versus what, what it feels like to navigate it. It's again, not subtle, but it's good. I like, as another runner up, when Natalie tells Leonard to just, like, close your eyes and really remember. Like, really remember, and we're flashing and everything we see and he's saying these, like, beautiful things. You can just feel the details, the bits and pieces you never bothered to put into words. You put these together and you get the feel of a person enough to know how much you miss them. That's a very moving moment of the film. But I love that everything we see now, you could turn this the other way and say, interesting that that dead wife never left the house. We never really got to see any other.
- [67:31]
B
She loved that kitchen.
- [67:32]
A
Loved.
- [67:33]
B
She loved to gaze out the window of her kitchen that she was imprisoned in and then sit at the table.
- [67:39]
A
Maybe she only read one book because she never got to go to the bookstore.
- [67:42]
B
Floral dresses, possible.
- [67:44]
A
But I do like that every moment we see is, like, routine. That that's the kind of thing he's remembering. Not like a honeymoon or a grand, like, experience. Just like what it was like to be in a home that you shared with this person.
- [67:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, I do. I do think it's interesting. I've seen many side by sides on the old Internet of like. They're pretty much near identical shots of Mal in Inception and Georgia Fox's character in this. In this movie, also true to form. Is this right? Oh, no, Catherine. She has a name. Catherine. That's true. Mrs. Jenkins does not have a name. She's a fictional creation. But she's just Sammy's wife.
- [68:25]
A
Listen, Gwyn was named in the Seven Kingdoms. Don't be greedy. But don't be greedy.
- [68:34]
B
Catherine Shelby just wandering around this kitchen where she is in her little loop of the kitchen and the bedroom and the kitchen and the bedroom and the bathroom in the middle of the night. That's her. But yeah, there are shots like her lying sideways in the bed, her sitting at the kitchen table. There are identical shots of Marion Cotillard in Inception. And I hope that was intentional. But it's also possible that when Christopher Nolan's like, what does a wife do? And he's like, lay in a bed, sit at a table, or if it's his own wife, answer all my emails and my phone calls for me. I don't know. What does a wife do? I love Nolan movies.
- [69:08]
A
They're the best. Oh, man.
- [69:11]
B
He's the hero Gotham deserves. I'm not the one it needs right now. I already answered this one. But who was regrettably miscast in this movie?
- [69:16]
A
I'm gonna go with your. I think. I think that's your case is strong. And I think that's the right answer. Let me toss out a kind of hot take contender here, though.
- [69:27]
B
Okay.
- [69:28]
A
I don't even think I agree with this. I don't agree with it as I suggested. But I want to float it for a reason. Okay. We both love Big Steve just had a. When we were doing Basic Instinct, there was a fascinating. Like that guy for Tobolowski. And it's like. In some ways you could say he's like the ultimate.
- [69:48]
B
I think he is that guy.
- [69:49]
A
Like, he's the ultimate.
- [69:50]
B
That guy. I tried to argue that on the sneakers we watched.
- [69:52]
A
That's right.
- [69:52]
B
That I thought he should replant Joey Pantoliano.
- [69:55]
A
Yeah. And then this keeps his. None of us can break through.
- [69:59]
B
But I'm with you, Steven. You deserve it.
- [70:02]
A
Every time he shows up, I'm thrilled. He's great. So I do not want to recast him because I think he's always wonderful. And I really agree with what you said earlier. That that expression. What he is conveying with his eyes and the wideness and the. Is so effective at communicating what the Sammy character is supposed to communicate to us. So I asked this for one reason and one reason only. And we can just discard it right away if we don't like it. Is there any logic to recasting him with an actor who looks. Who's a different actor but looks more like Guy Pearce to make the like. Wait, are Lenny and Sammy the same character thing?
- [70:41]
B
Brad Pitt, Thomas Jane, Tommy Jane. No, If I were put Thomas Dean in this movie, I put him in the Callum Keith Rennie, okay.
- [70:51]
A
Oh, yeah, he'd be a good dad.
- [70:53]
B
I don't think. I. I think Callum Keith Rennie is really good in Battlestar. Obviously, as you already shouted him out. I don't think he's great in this movie.
- [71:01]
A
No, he has like two and a half minutes.
- [71:04]
B
I think Larry Holden, who plays Jimmy is also not that great. I think there are some people down the cast list. And by down the cast list, I mean number six and seven because it's a very short cat cast list. But like, we're saving money. We're doing our best. But I feel like, you know, were we to make this now, that would be Cillian Murphy.
- [71:21]
A
It would be. Yeah.
- [71:22]
B
And you know that to be true.
- [71:23]
A
It's definitely true. Jimmy, he wore that suit well. I will say he wore that suit well.
- [71:29]
B
I just think Natalie could have.
- [71:30]
A
Should have been filthy by the way. He was like dragged across the flirtation. Probably being choked to death. He probably should have shit his pants.
- [71:36]
B
Does why does he take off his clothing and put on Jimmy's clothing?
- [71:41]
A
I don't, I don't know.
- [71:42]
B
This is like.
- [71:42]
A
How many times has he done something?
- [71:43]
B
Yeah, is this the, like, was the plaid shirt the previous Jimmy, you know, like, like the previous John G's plaid shirt, you know, like, is this a part of his ritualistic healing?
- [71:51]
A
I think that is a really reasonable deduction because again, who knows how any, how accurate, if at all, any of the flashbacks that we've seen are. But like, you're not getting that, like, I'm wearing like plaid and no vest. He's a driving by suit.
- [72:04]
B
He's a madman kind of guy.
- [72:05]
A
Yeah, exactly. So. But again, it's any of it.
- [72:07]
B
So this is his trophy. Is like.
- [72:09]
A
Yeah, he's like taking their suit in the car. He's not taking their literal skin, but like the skin of the life that they lead.
- [72:14]
B
I mean, it's great for the movie because he shows up to the bar in Jimmy's suit in his car. It's, it's, you know, you can't come in here like, looking like that. Like, all of that stuff is really good.
- [72:25]
A
Yeah.
- [72:25]
B
But like, why does he do that? I mean, Bizarre thing to do.
- [72:31]
A
Perhaps he never wrote himself a note saying, like, do your laundry and buy. Buy new clothes. Like, this is, you know, so this. He's. Shower and soap and towel.
- [72:41]
B
So this thing that I have, like, dragged through the dirt, and it's possibly got some blood stains on it or whatever. This is what I mean. It looks great on him.
- [72:47]
A
It does.
- [72:48]
B
It looks really good. It does.
- [72:49]
A
Yeah.
- [72:51]
B
Okay, Toobo, you're gonna recast Hobo.
- [72:55]
A
I couldn't bring myself to say it with. With. With. As Shea Serrano would say. I couldn't say it with my chest. Yeah. I couldn't say it with my chest.
- [73:03]
B
You. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled. Most satisfying twist.
- [73:09]
A
I mean, it's the ending.
- [73:10]
B
Yep. Sammy Jenkins.
- [73:11]
A
Okay.
- [73:11]
B
Right.
- [73:12]
A
So let's use this as a quote since it's so obvious and we agree and there are fun little twists and reveals along the way. I like.
- [73:17]
B
When I took several categories out, I was like, should I take the twist category out of a medito?
- [73:21]
A
The movie.
- [73:22]
B
The movie.
- [73:24]
A
There are a lot of great.
- [73:26]
B
They're mini twists.
- [73:26]
A
Yeah. Like, everything with Natalie, like, is really satisfying. Yeah. Teddy.
- [73:32]
B
Multiple motel rooms.
- [73:34]
A
Yes. Yeah. Okay, so, but let's just. Since we agree, it's the ending and it's specifically, like, Leonard's choice about what he is going to tell himself. Right. You think? I just want another puzzle to solve, another John G. To look for. You're John G. So you can be my John G. Do I lie to myself to be happy? In your case, Teddy, yes, I will. Chills. Where are you on how much of what Teddy tells Lenny is true? It's a good moment to talk about that for a second.
- [73:58]
B
Yeah. That's a great, great prompt. So Nolan has said.
- [74:03]
A
Yeah.
- [74:04]
B
That definitely something happened in the bathroom. Like, that's not invented. So definitely something happened in the bathroom. Whether or not the insulin thing happened is not something that he has confirmed one way or another.
- [74:14]
A
Right, Right.
- [74:15]
B
I think it's a better story if it is true.
- [74:18]
A
I agree. I agree.
- [74:20]
B
If Leonard killed his wife because I think the core of his quest to avenge the person who killed his wife, and he is the person who killed
- [74:29]
A
his wife, then you never reach the end. Yeah.
- [74:32]
B
And. And, like, you are so consumed with. Because in theory. Well, of course, because not in theory. She survives the attack. So it's not like. Like immediate. Like, as soon as he lost his ability to make memories, he wasn't immediately on this vengeance quest. There was a moment in his life when he was Just like pinching her thigh and, and giving her injections or whatever. So like he was, he was living a more sedate, post accident life. Yeah. And then he is so traumatized not just by what happened in the bathroom, but by his. I mean, did he kill her? Could you say that directly? But like, like in his complicit. Complicity in that. Yeah, that he's then driven on this unsolvable quest to find the person when he's the person who did it. You know, harrowing to confront Penrose Stairs just.
- [75:21]
A
That's right.
- [75:22]
B
You know, running around.
- [75:23]
A
Exactly. I am in the same place. I. So my feeling on it is like,
- [75:27]
B
like similar to Cobb, you know, Cobb being like, I'm. I did this to her.
- [75:31]
A
You know, Joey Pants. Like you, you couldn't have a more perfect person in that scene because he is. And I'm blanking on where Nolan said this, but I know he, I'm paraphrasing, but he has said like, oh, it's really fascinating to the Nolans that like many people who see this movie don't want to believe Teddy because they've seen.
- [76:00]
B
That's classic. Honestly. That's classic fight club like behavior and also. Or like having a post of Scarface on your wall, honestly.
- [76:08]
A
Yeah. Yes.
- [76:09]
B
And also like loving Breaking Bad.
- [76:11]
A
Just like Walt.
- [76:12]
B
What a guy.
- [76:13]
A
I'm rooting for ya. Redemption is possible. Is there an epilogue?
- [76:20]
B
Is there a Stinger?
- [76:21]
A
Haven't given up. Are we sure he's dead?
- [76:23]
B
I'm not sure.
- [76:24]
A
But the idea that you've basically been conditioned all movie through Leonardo, don't believe his lies and then you get maybe the truth that you're like primed to believe it is a lie. And you're rooted in Leonard's experience and point of view such that there is a point of view that you can be rooted in.
- [76:40]
B
Right. But like Lenny, what a guy.
- [76:43]
A
I, you know, Joey Pants is a smart ass and he's a, this is part of his, his undying charm. Like he's like a little bit of a demon in all of these scenes and he's to trying so funny and witty and sharp and like, you know, the acid that is like drenched over every word he says. But he's played a lot of bad guys over the years and so you're not always like, Joey Pants is definitely playing a good guy. And so especially because you have,
- [77:09]
B
you
- [77:09]
A
have all of these reasons, even in this scene, this moment of reveal to say, well, you have your own agenda. You have a, a reason that was just presented clearly to deceive Leonard, to lead him to a place that suits you. You also know he won't remember this. So there's all of that in the brew. And yet, despite that, my feeling on it. And I love that. And this is like, you know, we've had so many Nolan movies that have a version of this. Like, you can just keep debating it forever. And that's part of what's fun and interesting about it, that there's, like an invitation to the viewer to say, well, what do you think about this? I'm not going to tell you definitively. Maybe it'll be pretty clear, but. But it's not definitive. And I feel that what he. That what Teddy says about, like, you killed this guy a year ago, and I thought it would pull you out of this.
- [77:56]
B
I love that line delivery when he's like, I thought so too. You know what I mean? There's just like something kind of. There's emotion there for him.
- [78:02]
A
Like, to me, that feels definitively true.
- [78:05]
B
I agree.
- [78:06]
A
The Sammy Lenny one is a little bit more. How do I feel about this? But I also land where you land because I think it's a more interesting story if that's the case. And the fact that, like, ultimately the. The. The key in that moment is that Leonard does not know, and I think
- [78:28]
B
it's because he refuses to accept it that makes it feel all the more true.
- [78:32]
A
I agree.
- [78:32]
B
You know?
- [78:33]
A
Yeah, I agree.
- [78:35]
B
All right. It's not who I am. It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me. Nolan is not known for his sexual content, but let's go ahead and try to excavate the horniest moment of this film. I think there's a clear answer here.
- [78:46]
A
Tell me.
- [78:48]
B
And maybe this is. Reveal something about me. I believe it is Natalie spitting in the beer the way that Carrie Anne Moss does that. What I think is extremely horny.
- [78:59]
A
Oh, my God, I love this pick. Incredible.
- [79:02]
B
Yeah, there's just something. The way that she spits.
- [79:04]
A
Spitting on something else.
- [79:05]
B
She's known. She. She knows her way around a spit is what I think also.
- [79:10]
A
Do they. No, no, it's on the screen.
- [79:11]
B
Do they. Do they fuck? Is that your interpretation?
- [79:14]
A
So I don't think so.
- [79:16]
B
I don't think so either.
- [79:17]
A
But there are horny moments around. This is obviously, like, kind of a fraught aspect of this where, like, Leonard could not.
- [79:23]
B
What's sex life for? Like, because the timing is inconsistent for when his memory resets in that stretch in particular. And so could his memory reset mid act yeah.
- [79:35]
A
And I assume why he's probably not engaging, right? Because he wouldn't remember how he sold started, so that's tough. The spitting is just an iconic choice. I have really no notes on that. That's incredible.
- [79:48]
B
I think she's incredible. I think she's. For my sort of like, late 90s into early odds sort of aesthetic moment or whatever. I think she's hotter in this even than she is in the Matrix. I think she's so hot.
- [79:59]
A
One A and one B. I think
- [80:00]
B
she's so hot in this movie. Like, the smudged eyeliner, just like I think she is. And like, how, like, her disdain, the way that she manipulates him, but then the way that she is actually, like, has some tenderness for him as well. Is just like Femme Fatale at its finest.
- [80:15]
A
She's great.
- [80:16]
B
The way she says, freaky tattoos.
- [80:18]
A
Lovely. I will throw out another Natalie nominee when they wake up together. And then he's getting dressed and leaving. The way she kisses him as they part and says, I think you will, like, remember me. Like, I'm gonna give you a reason. And then he doesn't, which is pretty sad. But for like 0.5 seconds there, I was pretty hot.
- [80:34]
B
There's also a shot of her, you know, after he's told the story about, you know, the warmth, the warmth of the bed. They just got up or something like that. And she's sort of doing the same, you know, thinking about Jimmy.
- [80:49]
A
Yes.
- [80:49]
B
Her eyes. I mean, like, her eyes are so beautiful. They both have beautiful, beautiful, like blue green eyes. And like when they're sitting across from each other at the diner, it's just sort of like flash on flash, like gorgeousness. But there's a shot of her in the bed in the dark, and her eyes are just kind of like flashing in the darkness. And I just think that she is wonderful in this movie. And similar to Guy Pierce, I think K. Karen Moss is forever Trinity in the Matrix. So that is like something that has cemented her career forever.
- [81:20]
A
Yes.
- [81:21]
B
But I think. I think she should have been so much bigger than she was.
- [81:24]
A
If only the acolyte had taken off.
- [81:28]
B
Yeah. That wouldn't have helped her, would it? I don't know.
- [81:31]
A
So nobody picked the Dodd and Lenny naked shower fight. Interesting.
- [81:35]
B
Well, you could pick that if you want to.
- [81:36]
A
There's my runner up. Okay.
- [81:37]
B
It's pretty good.
- [81:38]
A
Yeah.
- [81:41]
B
An idea is like a virus. Resilient. Highly contagious. The line that hits the hardest 25ish
- [81:46]
A
years later is, can't remember to forget you disqualified because it's one of the names of our category. Or is it a language you can use it? I think that's pretty good for a reason. It's memorable for a reason. Probably tried this before.
- [81:59]
B
I think mine is burned.
- [82:00]
A
Truckloads of your stuff. Can't remember to forget you.
- [82:02]
B
Yeah, that one's really good. If we can't make memories we can't heal is mine. So it's like they're very similar of the same vein. I think I can't remember to forget you. I think whoever wrote that line, whether it was Christopher himself, whether Jonah was involved, whether Emma tossed it out from the other room when she was stuck in the kitchen or whatever, I don't know. But Emma Nolan is very accomplished. Obviously, that was just a joke about poor Kathryn Shelby being stuck in the kitchen. Emma Nolan's not stuck in the kitchen. But what wrote that line. Let's give it to Chris. I love him. He's great. I hope that he bought himself something shiny that day. It's a great line. I hope he felt great writing it.
- [82:39]
A
Really great. I have a few runners up that are a little less maybe like, oh, people are still quoting it years later, but that I find very impactful. Early in the film, Teddy gun to his face, Lenny poised to shoot him. You don't know who you are. I'm Leonard Shelby. I'm from San Francisco. That's who you were. That's not what you've become. I just love that exchange. And then especially because we see it, you know, in the process of the film that earlier he has said versions of that, but the way he says it there.
- [83:05]
B
Where is that house in San Francisco? I don't.
- [83:07]
A
Great question.
- [83:08]
B
I don't think so.
- [83:09]
A
Great question. Leonard and Adam, anybody says he's from
- [83:12]
B
San Francisco, what he really means is he's from Marin or possibly some, like, Piedmont, but I don't think he's from San Francisco.
- [83:20]
A
So I'm a Northern California geography from you here. Yeah.
- [83:23]
B
They're in like, a little, like, idyllic little cottage, suburbia home that doesn't exist in San Francisco proper from just outside of San Francisco.
- [83:32]
A
Oh, man. Leonard And Natalie at the cafe, she. This is when she says, you're not even gonna remember your revenge if you get it. And this is when he says, the world doesn't just disappear when you close your eyes, does it? Which obviously comes back into play at the end. So that's a great line and a great idea and a very interesting and rich idea. Boy. On the beautiful Joey Pantis bringing A lot of levity and a lot of menace. But then he has these quiet, gentle little moments that just will, in the middle of a scene, knock you over. And one of my favorite examples of that in this film with his performance, his portrayal of Teddy, is when Lenny and Teddy are having lunch. And Teddy's just trying to remind Lenny, you. You actually are alive. Like, you're not gone. And Lenny says, he destroyed my ability to live. And then Teddy reaches over and he just, like, puts his hand on your. To feel the pulse. Like, you're living. It's just. It's perfect. And the way he says it is just so memorable to me.
- [84:29]
B
What he said for revenge.
- [84:31]
A
Yes. Only for revenge.
- [84:32]
B
Only for revenge.
- [84:32]
A
And then lastly, Teddy, should I do
- [84:35]
B
that to you next time you come in and you're like, I'm so tired and I feel like I'm dying. And I'll just gently put my hand on your throat and say youy're living.
- [84:40]
A
You're living. And I'll say only for this podcast. And then we'll see what happens. One hour and 53. Teddy, when he's cornered by Lenny at the Jimmy G hit. So you lie to yourself to be happy. There's nothing wrong with that. We all do it. Which is just so, so, so true. So Teddy just, like, bringing the. Bringing the gospel there.
- [85:06]
B
That takes me to the next category. You think darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born and emulded by it. All right, so most devastating moments. I think it's Lenny lying to himself.
- [85:18]
A
Yeah.
- [85:18]
B
You know, like the revelation that he perhaps had a hand in killing his wife. All these other things for sure. But like, that he knowingly. Yeah. Creates a puzzle for himself to solve. I'll do it. You know, you'll be my Dan G. Right.
- [85:37]
A
Very tough.
- [85:40]
B
We're just, like, thinking about him, like, redacting the police files, you know. Oh, my God.
- [85:44]
A
Pulling out the 12 pages and. Yeah.
- [85:46]
B
Just to create a narrative that can work for his broken brain is really tough.
- [85:52]
A
That's a great pick.
- [85:53]
B
I am.
- [85:54]
A
I'm going with let's bring the dead wife back for another minute here. When Teddi is in bed with Natalie and they're talking about her, which was a scene I've already mentioned, but I just find this is, like, the performance from both of them in this scene is so good. I don't even know how long she's been gone. This is what he says. And, like, it just really bowls you over, like, to think about what would that be like to not even know the period of loss that has come to define every aspect of your existence. We've already talked about the scene a number of times because this is what builds toward. I lie here not knowing how long I've been alone. So how can I heal? How am I supposed to heal if I can't feel time? So it's like, it's a good kind of mission statement for so many of the things that this movie. But also, just like Nolan, more broadly, is interested in exploring, you know, loss and grief and pain and memory and time and healing and wounds and how these things are all entwined. And this like. Like, examination of how, you know, if you're not able to feel that time and to heal because you understand the time is passing. And, like, emotionally, intellectually, when you lose someone, you're like, I will never. This will never stop hurting as much as it does right now. But, like, you know, the nature of just moving through the world is that one day you realize, like, it's been a little longer than it was yesterday since I thought about this, right? And that, like, Lenny can't have that,
- [87:11]
B
and you form new attachments and new connections. Which he can't do.
- [87:13]
A
Yeah. Yes, exactly.
- [87:15]
B
Yes.
- [87:15]
A
Cause there's the, like, the really intense, like, you know, can you even get, like, can you even get free? Like, can you feel fear? You know, can you get scared? But then, right, what are the other things that he's not able to feel? You know, and how does that all then form the kind of, like, smoothie of his experience every day? It's just, oh, man, how am I
- [87:34]
B
supposed to heal if I can't feel time? I just. Again, if you can find season one of Westworld, I really recommend you watch it. It's. That is like a thesis of that show. Okay. For me, I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship. Actors who never returned to the Nolan verse, but should have. You have Guy Pearce here.
- [87:53]
A
Yeah. I was like, hey, you know, it's pretty weird that Guy Pearce has never been in another Nolan movie. What's up with that? And there's a Vanity Fair article from very recently from 2024, the brutalist run. I would like to read you this passage. And who knows, right? This is Guy Pearce, his accounting of it. But I was like, what? Have you been in touch with Christopher Nolan over the years? Not really, but he spoke to me about roles a few times over the years. The first Batman and the Prestige. But there was an executive at Warner Brothers who quite openly said to my agent, I don't get Guy Pierce. I'm never going to get Guy Pierce. I'm never going to employ Guy Pearce. So in a way that's good to know. I mean, fair enough. There are some actors I don't get. But it meant I could never work with Chris Bracket. Warner Brothers had not responded to a request for comment. And then the follow up question. Wait, wait, hold on. So when exec at Warner Brothers just had a no Guy Pierce policy, did you do something to offend him? I think he just didn't believe in me as an actor. So there were times when Nolan was like, hey, my old buddy Guy would be great. And the exec said no, Guy. Yes. They flew me to London to discuss the Liam Neeson role for Batman Wild. And I think it was decided on my flight that I wasn't going to be in the movie. So I got there and Chris is like, hey, you want to see the Batmobile and get dinner? Decent consolation prize. Honestly. Listen, no one's done with Warner Brothers now, so. Yeah, so now my time has come. I. There had to be some explanation for why he was never in another Nolan movie. But, like, that's a fucking bummer. That's a hot bummer.
- [89:30]
B
Interesting. But he's not in the Odyssey that we know of. Wouldn't it be great if Guy Pierce just shows up somewhere in the Odyssey rowing a boat?
- [89:41]
A
Yeah, rowing a boat. Get him in there. It's not too late.
- [89:44]
B
We're not at Warner Brothers anymore, so it's time to work together. Okay. Interesting, Interesting. Maybe we need to. Maybe this needs to be like the Cillian Murphy story where it's just like Guy is the lead of his next movie and Guy wins his Oscar for it. He. I wouldn't have been mad if he had won for the Brutalist. He's very, very good at the Brutalist and he was nominated. I wouldn't have been mad about that.
- [90:05]
A
But yeah, okay.
- [90:08]
B
Yeah, Guy Paris is probably my answer. But I mean, Joey Pants also, or Carrie Anne Moss. Why not? Mark Boone Jr. And Tom Lennon who are in this movie are both also in other. Or Harriet Sansom Harris. Like, honestly, like, there's a lot of options in this movie.
- [90:24]
A
Is it too late to get Joey Pants in the Odyssey?
- [90:26]
B
Oh, he's in the Odyssey. You didn't know this? He plays the head siren.
- [90:31]
A
He can do it. There's nothing he can't do. There's nothing Joey Pants can't do.
- [90:35]
B
It's the teddy mustache. It's the teddy must. But like, you know, he's just warbling like a dream. It's great. Wouldn't you throw yourself overboard for Joey Pants?
- [90:44]
A
Without hesitation.
- [90:44]
B
I know. I agree. Okay. Some men just want to watch the world burn. The most Nolan thing about this movie,
- [90:52]
A
I mean, it's just.
- [90:52]
B
All of it. Memory.
- [90:53]
A
Memory. Yeah. The nonlinear structure, I think, like we talked about at the top of the
- [90:57]
B
pod, but it's legibility inside of that.
- [90:59]
A
Yes.
- [91:00]
B
All of it. A category that I snipped out that we often do is this idea of, like, the great man. And I just don't think. Think that concept really exists in this movie.
- [91:08]
A
Too much Dead Wife.
- [91:10]
B
Yeah.
- [91:10]
A
To make room for.
- [91:11]
B
We had to turn down a little bit of the Dead Wife. So to make room for.
- [91:15]
A
The recalibration is coming. Like 30 seconds for dead Wife. And then all.
- [91:19]
B
Great, man.
- [91:21]
A
Had to balance it across time.
- [91:26]
B
I don't know. Oppenheimer has a lot of room for dead girlfriend.
- [91:28]
A
That's true.
- [91:29]
B
Counts. So, you know. All right.
- [91:31]
A
So does Inception.
- [91:32]
B
All right. Our greatest accomplishments cannot be behind us. What aspect of Nolan's upcoming the Odyssey are you thinking about? Slash. Most hyped for this month?
- [91:41]
A
Trials, I think. You know, the idea of, like, trials on the road to a goal.
- [91:46]
B
I love you. And I have different interpretations of this category every time, which is like. You're like, how does this movie. Yeah. Here's my answer. Tom Holland. Tom Holland has seen the Odyssey. He says it's a masterpiece. He says that there are sequences that he. He was insisted had to be cgi. And Nolan's like, nope.
- [92:12]
A
Great stuff.
- [92:12]
B
Practical effects, buddy. That's a lot of planning and a lot of money in the Adriatic Sea. So you know what? Here we go. We're going to do it. Anything else you want to say? Okay. So trials, you were saying? Yeah. Okay.
- [92:25]
A
Yeah.
- [92:25]
B
Great.
- [92:26]
A
I can't believe the Odyssey's in three months. I'm hyped.
- [92:28]
B
Okay, which Nolan movie should we do next?
- [92:31]
A
Let's see. So we have.
- [92:34]
B
We have the Dark Knight. Dark Knight Rises.
- [92:36]
A
Yeah. Have you heard of them? Classic us to not have done those yet. Following insomnia tenant, Oppenheimer.
- [92:46]
B
Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com. have you some thoughts and feelings? Actually, I have an idea, but I don't want to say it yet.
- [92:52]
A
I think we're thinking the same thing.
- [92:53]
B
Okay.
- [92:53]
A
Yeah, great. If the scheduling works. Yes, I think that should be next.
- [92:56]
B
Okay, great. All right.
- [92:59]
A
What the fuck are they talking about? But we know.
- [93:01]
B
We know. We're locked in. All right. Anything else you want to say?
- [93:04]
A
I was Literally going to text you that yesterday when you mentioned.
- [93:07]
B
Yes, exactly. It was on my mind, honestly, when I said it too. Okay, it's fine. Don't worry. This all stays in. Who should we thank today?
- [93:18]
A
Oh, man. Let's see.
- [93:19]
B
Carlos. Scott Lee.
- [93:21]
A
Scott Lee. Jacob is here with us.
- [93:23]
B
Jacob's here.
- [93:25]
A
The whole crew.
- [93:26]
B
Everyone here. Arjuna Ramore. Arjuna denaron.
- [93:29]
A
Yeah. We saw Jack Wilson earlier. Let's say hi to Jack. Thank you to the whole crew. What a wonderful time here at Sycamore.
- [93:34]
B
We'll be back with the Daredevil check in. What percentage of that podcast am I allowed to dedicate to Dex?
- [93:41]
A
As much as you want.
- [93:42]
B
Great. We'll be back for a Dex check in.
- [93:44]
A
But you do have to make a sunny side out bag for a cat
- [93:47]
B
at some point on the regular.
- [93:49]
A
Great.
- [93:49]
B
My cat. I don't know that I want to give my cat an egg. I feel like she would just vomit. Vomit, you know?
- [93:53]
A
No, that's. She would like it.
- [93:55]
B
Okay, I will make an egg for my cat and I will film it for you. Content and the Instagram, perhaps.
- [94:03]
A
I will.
- [94:04]
B
I will not, however, be having a banana milkshake.
- [94:09]
A
It's funny. Adam and I had a pretty long discussion. I think that sounds delicious.
- [94:12]
B
One flaw.
- [94:13]
A
It sounds delicious. I like a banana pudding. I like a banana ice cream. Banana cream pie. Banana and cream pairs wonderfully together.
- [94:21]
B
No, no, no, no, no. Banana in a smoothie.
- [94:24]
A
You can fix him. Well, sure, but that's a whole different thing.
- [94:26]
B
But, like, where's banana? Okay, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm sipping in the Daredevil pod, but where does banana rank on? Like, if you had all the flavors to choose from in your milkshake, it
- [94:34]
A
wouldn't be my first choice.
- [94:35]
B
Is it above strawberry?
- [94:37]
A
It's probably delicious. No, certainly not. I love. I love a strawberry milkshake.
- [94:40]
B
So, like, the Neapolitan flavors, chocolate, vanilla, strawberry are going above. Is it above an Oreo milkshake?
- [94:47]
A
Depends on the mood, and it depends on the establishment. Are they known for their banana milkshake milkshakes?
- [94:52]
B
I think bananas just like. I would take a coffee milkshake over it. I love, like, coffee is like my.
- [94:57]
A
I do like coffee ice cream.
- [94:58]
B
Like, yeah, that's my number one favorite. Oh, I would take. I would take, like, a mint ship milkshake over banana. Like, banana is just like. So actually, I think if they said we only have banana, I would say, I will not be having a milkshake. Yeah, well, I would say, give me plain vanilla. They would say, we don't have it. I said, that's impossible because you have to start with vanilla and add the banana to it. So there's no way you don't have vanilla milkshake. And they would just be like, sorry. And I would go, what if were
- [95:23]
A
using a banana ice cream?
- [95:25]
B
Disgusting.
- [95:26]
A
Delicious.
- [95:27]
B
Absolutely filthy.
- [95:28]
A
Oh, there's a banana ice cream that I love. You have to order it from Kentucky, but I will be doing that so that you can taste it from Crank and boom on Gold belly State of Kentucky.
- [95:39]
B
Delicious. Worth it. I would rather we go to Kentucky than you fly a milkshake from Kentucky.
- [95:46]
A
It arrives. It's not a milkshake. It's a pint of ice cream to prove to you that you can make the banana ice cream from the pint. There is chocolate in it, so it's one.
- [95:54]
B
Well, we'll be back.
- [95:55]
A
Carlos, you can just clip all of that and put it in the dare to hold up.
- [96:01]
B
Thank you to everyone. Thank you to you, Mallory. We will be continuing with Nolan hobbitsanddragons gmail.com if you have strong thoughts about which Nolan movie about milkshakes, banana or otherwise, or about Daredevil feeding eggs to cats. Anything else, we will look forward to that. We'll see you soon,
- [96:19]
A
Sam.