B (2:58)

Yeah, happy to be the Zack Snyder of this pod. I come first.

A (3:01)

Wow.

B (3:02)

Then James comes along, cleans up my mess.

A (3:05)

Are you going to start a. Yeah, exactly. Are you going to start a campaign much like hashtag makesola to happen for hashtag release the Limburg cut.

B (3:12)

That one's going so well, Ben.

A (3:14)

There's a limberg cut of another sort. Button mash. What? What? On the programming reminders front, do the people need to know? Do the Bhad Bhabies need to know what is coming up next week? And Bey, it's a busy time.

B (3:26)

We're right in the thick of things. This was supposed to be Grand Theft Auto season, and now it is not. But many other big games have moved in to fill the void. There's been sort of a feeding frenzy on the schedule, so we covered Hollow Knight Silksong last week. The surprise drop. We'll be returning to that on Friday, not long after this pod drops, when we'll also be covering Borderlands 4. And then after that we've got a new Silent Hill game coming. We've got Ghost of Yotei coming in a couple weeks. There's so much Hades 2. Another surprise drop. So the games keep coming fast and furious. Thrilling it is.

A (4:06)

Remember when you convinced yourself and tried to convince the voting public that GTA 6 would be coming out this year?

B (4:12)

The hype has only built since then. We're getting a full year of hype.

A (4:16)

Can't wait for you to pick it again next year.

B (4:20)

I believe next year. Second time's the charm.

A (4:23)

There you go. Over on House of R. Joanna and Rob and I will be covering, of course, the finale. Already finale time for Alien Earth. So that'll be drop in next Tuesday evening. Excited to see how that season of TV concludes, and Joe and I are hoping to have a special guest for that as well. Stay tuned.

B (4:41)

James Gunn.

A (4:45)

Is he watching Alien Earth? It's entirely possible, Ben. Spoiler warning. I think it's already implied, but just to state it explicitly, anything that has happened so far in Peacemaker season 2 through episode 5 could come up today. We have not seen beyond that. Nobody has, and so there were no future spoilers coming. If it happened in Peacemaker Season 1, it could in theory come up today. And if it's happened in the dcu, DC Comics, the dceu, anything related to any dimension, alternate or otherwise in the DC Comics Sphere couldn't theory come up today, so prepare accordingly. Anything else on the reminders front that you would like to share, like subscribe, follow, etc.

B (5:27)

I have seen Superman, unlike certain previous guests who discussed Peacemaker on this podcast. So I've. I've prepared for that if Superman comes up at some point.

A (5:37)

Did you go to the movie theater?

B (5:38)

No, I watched it at home.

A (5:41)

You're the best. You're the best. Okay, we got a lot to cover today. Let's get to the opening snapshot. Okay, Ben, opening snapshot time. We need to acclimate each other. The bad babies. Eagle, if he's listening, give us a quick taste. What is your experience been like catching up on Peacemaker? How have you found the show in general, and how have you found season two through episode five?

B (6:10)

I've caught up quickly because I was pretty slow on the uptake, as you know. I have rectified that oversight. I've binged just to catch up for this pod and potential future pods. And it actually worked out well, I think, because if I had watched season one when it aired, I probably would have forgotten everything that happened and I.

A (6:27)

Would have watched three and a half years.

B (6:28)

So life hack, just wait and watch. But I guess I was a little apprehensive maybe about diving in. Maybe this is why I was a late adopter. Just because we've seen so many superhero shows in this vein in the Boys, Gen V, Invincible, Umbrella Academy, kind of irreverent counterculture of superhero sort of show, to the point that it's not even really a counterculture anymore. It's maybe the dominant culture when it comes to these shows. So between that and then between the multiverse aspects, again, I was a little reluctant, like, what will this offer that we haven't seen before? But you said, you know what, I think you're going to like this show.

A (7:09)

Yeah, I felt pretty confident.

B (7:11)

I like the show. So turns out that there's more room in my heart for shows like this. And it's just. It's done particularly well. Of course, we love a found family show on House of R. This is a good one. Love the gang, love the 11th Street Kids. I made myself an honorary member, even though I just joined and season two's been. Been good, I think, you know, it's. It's that sort of adjustment acclimation period where the gang got together, right. And sort of settled their differences and bonded and had so many emotional moments. And then we do a sort of reset this season where everyone's scattered to the winds and when are we going to see these people working together again? But we've seen ways for them to connect. Some unlikely pairings, in fact, which I've quite enjoyed. So it's nice to see that they're keeping up with each other, even if they haven't hung out all together all that often to this point.

A (8:06)

I'm thrilled, though not surprised, that you've enjoyed your time with the 11th Street Kids. I thought that in general, just kind of the vibe, the pace, the sense of humor and sensibility of the show would be to your liking, but also just more broadly, I think obviously you appreciate fictional universes that have a fully realized sense of self, and I think that is undeniable with Peacemaker. I've really been enjoying season two as well. You know, I had the pleasure of covering the season two premiere with Mike Golick Jr. That was a super fun pod. Great to get to chat with Golick and talk about the premiere. I love the premiere and I'm excited to be able to check in. We were initially thinking, well, we would check in at the literal mid season mark after episode four, but I'm glad ultimately that we ended up doing it after episode five because this is such a fascinating place to leave our characters. Closing that door. Now obviously episode five also ends with the stated declaration that the gang is gonna go find Kris, they're gonna bring him back. But I found myself totally swept up at the end of episode five. The reading of the letter, which spoiler will be coming up in one of my categories today, was just that, like that, that blend in Peacemaker as a show and in Gun properties in general, that I really gravitate toward where I am. Like I've spent 30 to 40, depending on the length of an episode, minutes laughing, being grossed out by some sort of horrendous inventive act of violence, finding myself astonished at the extent of the crude humor, and then realizing I'm wiping a tear away from my eye because I'm so moved by the depth of devotion and affection that has developed between the characters. So I think that that has been really creatively positioned for subsequent exploration with the trip through and the closing of the door into the alternate reality. I agree with what you said about how in season two, the long gap, I mean, you're not wrong, man. That was a minute between seasons. And I like that these moments in the season so far. I talked about this in the interview with gun, but something like the rooftop hang in episode two felt really useful, not only for us as viewers, but for the characters themselves, like. Right. What is it like for these people to be back together, both with each other and in our lives? And I think finding a number of disrupted, thwarted, halted personal and professional circumstances is like, you know, dramatically rich, obviously. But then something as bold as we're gonna send this guy into a world that he couldn't possibly resist. And the journey is, I presume, about him learning to appreciate the things he has in the other place. Yes. I'm really intrigued by that. I think it's a strong premise for a second season and, you know, who knows what we'll get beyond that? But, yeah, rich text. So our categories today are gonna be best and ever.

B (11:12)

We will see if it turns out to be true.

A (11:15)

I've got some. Some skepticism on that front. I think the best dimension ever has got to be the one with the imp su jizz and the Cheerios. That just seems like a good time. Good time.

B (11:25)

You mentioned on the previous Pod, Dark Matter and Apple TV special, and also I was thinking of Counterpart, which is a show that no one watched except me, I think, because it was on Stars at the time, but just a great show. J.K. simmons. And just thought provoking two seasons of what would happen if you met an alternate self who had a different life and a different family and the road not taken and all of that. So it is material that's been explored elsewhere in fiction before. No question.

A (11:55)

Yeah.

B (11:55)

Not with these characters. And we've come to care about these characters because as crude as the show can be at times, in that trademark gun way, it does very much have a heart also in that trademark gun way.

A (12:09)

Yeah. I find that the. You know, we talk about this a lot, but in multiversal storytelling, confronting another version of yourself that I'm always quite interested in, what you learn is fixed or fluid about who you are based on the circumstances that surround you. And obviously Chris will learn some of that in the space that he is filling. But that was just a real shock to me. Still, the fact that alternate Peacemaker was dispensed with so rapidly, and then it's about being able to really slot into that life that he is no longer inhabiting. So that's an interesting creative choice.

B (12:42)

We've got some cat of a sidekick, at least not a wing of. I mean, how many times would would Prime Chris have checked out at this point if not for Eagle's efforts?

A (12:51)

Listen, it was one of the first things I flagged at the beginning of the season. The absence of Eagle over there, quite alarming, tells me a lot about that Chris tells me pretty much all I need to know about that Chris, as does the fact that he kept a bust of his own head in his bedroom. Yes, I'm caught up.

B (13:03)

We've learned more about him from Harcourt and perhaps how faithful he was in that relationship, but the lack of that's also badly alone. Clearly he lacks that bond that is so special to the Kris that we know and love.

A (13:18)

Great stuff. Well, we will talk about some of the choices that were featured in that reality to make it a compelling place not only for the characters but for viewers at home. We're going to talk about some of the stuff that's made us laugh, some of the stuff that's made us weep. But there's only one place to begin the mid season awards with you, with me here on House of R and it is by talking about Eagly. So let's get to our mid season superlatives. Let's start with the most important Eagly moment.

B (13:49)

So many moments.

A (13:51)

I know.

B (13:51)

How can we narrow it down?

A (13:53)

Oh, and we should say because we did the pot on the first episode of the season, we're going to at least attempt to primarily focus on episodes 2, 3, 4 and 5 as like the eligible texts for these categories. But at some point you might pick something for episode one, I might pick something for episode one, we might reference things that happen in episode one, but we're going to try to hit 2, 3, 4 and 5 most frequently in the category. So what do you got on the easy front?

B (14:19)

A lot of emotional moments, another hug with an actual completed selfie. But I'm going to go with one of the more violent displays that we have seen from Eagly thus far. This might have some overlap with our next category, but probably when he single handedly, single beakedly just kicked Argus's ass, who thought unbelievable that no one was home and discovered to their dismay that there was an Eagly home security system. He made very short work of them. I feel nervous as I. I don't doubt that you do. Every time that he faces fire when he's on the receiving end, I mean he's been hunted, he's been targeted throughout this season, but didn't really break a sweat. I don't know if eagles sweat seems unlikely but. But it was water off a duck's back, I guess because some said he was a duck in fact. So that was just really we've seen, you know, from time to time obviously he has swooped in and come to Chris's rescue, but that was just a solo Act. He wasn't even a sidekick. He was just taking center stage at that point. And we've seen a lot of eye violence, not only in this show, but. But Superman also. Just like a literal tough look at times in these properties, but that just, you know, casually plucking out the eyeball and dispensing with just showed us what Eagly's made of. Not that we didn't already know.

A (15:46)

Unsurprisingly. This is my pick as well. I kind of don't know how it couldn't be. I was thinking back with some more sentimental bonding I have. Okay. Like, I have a. A tie here, I guess, because. Yeah, I think. I just think we can't really understate the potential mythology and lore significance of what happened with Eagly at the end of episode five. Like finding out that Eagly is in fact the prime eagle. Like a creature of legend, which I talked to Gun about it and, you know, it sounds like this is not just like a blood loss and hallucinogenic fueled vision from Red St. Wild, but in fact an indicator that Eagly is, as we have always suspected and frankly, dare I say, known. Mystical, mythical, magical, all of it. So that was. That was a great way not only to, I think, lean into the fact that everybody is obsessed with Eagly, but also weaponize in a way that I'm with you. Like, kind of genuinely pains me when I watch Weaponize our Terror. Like, the fake out of. I don't like to see any animals killed in fictional stories, so I. I mourn for that other eagle too. But the fake out of, like, was that Eagly. You know, after the way that eagle looked at what happened with the ingesting of the poisoned vermin, it was just all so stressful. And then the way that all of those other eagles swooped in to aid Eagly in taking down this monstrous force really reminded me of like all of the. The wolves gathering around Nymeria, you know, really had that vibe like a. The mythical beast perched and looking inward.

B (17:38)

So that I was reminded of another Game of Thrones. Were you getting oral? The wildling vibes.

A (17:44)

Certainly. Any. Anytime there's like a face talent scratch. There's.

B (17:48)

There was war game.

A (17:49)

There's gonna be that more or less, right? There's going to be that association. Well, yeah, the. The drone cam. Yeah. So that I think has to be a contender here for this category. But at the end of the day. And I will get to. You're right, I have a sentimental moment coming as well. But I think that Your pick. It's just hard to top what was in essence a like hero strut sequence that was set to music where Eagly single clawedly took down an entire unit of Professional Assassins. Like, it was incredible. I mean, I was again very stressed because I don't want to see him in harm's way. And the show has taught us that it will actually hurt him. You know, we saw he took that fire in season one, right. And was like on that table, on that slab. It was horrible. So it's not like I assume going into one of these sequences that Eagly is going to be okay. And obviously we've watched enough James Gunn properties over the years to know that he will take an animal away from us, he will make us sob, he will make us mourn. No question. So I'm always very anxious. But there was something about that where right away you're like, Eagly is gonna just dust these fools. And he did. You, I think are are using conservative language to describe what he did with mild muted language to describe what he did with that eyeball. He didn't just disappear expense with it. The twirling in the air. There was a flourish of the sinews and fibers and veins and connective tissue so that the blood rainbowed in the sky. I mean that was just really memorable stuff. And then the dirty money track popping in as he like wobbled towards the camera. Pay me dirty money. I'm your favorite monkey. Watch me go. I slacked Arjuna. And I'm like, it's possible we just witnessed the most important television episode ever. And then I don't think that was how it was received.

C (19:52)

But.

A (19:55)

Watching that scene, it felt that way.

B (19:56)

There were some style points. That was not his first eyeball extraction. I think we can tell he's a veteran.

A (20:02)

Certainly not.

B (20:02)

And then he turns out to be the lord of all eagles or whatever at the end. And you know, I feel like still.

A (20:09)

Tough to open like a baloney package though. It's true. Something humanizing challenge.

B (20:14)

Yeah. But it did cross my mind since there doesn't seem to be an equally eagle equivalent in the alternate universe. Well, maybe this is a way to have Chris leave everything behind when he assumes this alternate identity. Fortunately not the case. But yeah, equally usage rate just in general is up this season.

A (20:33)

Right?

B (20:33)

He's getting more minutes, it seems to me, which I know, maybe that's your input. I'm sure you're happy about it.

A (20:39)

But you hear this all the time about TV shows versus movies. You start a program, you don't really know what you have. Sometimes you're like, this character is only going to be around two episodes and then you say they're the co star of five seasons.

B (20:49)

Yes. He's the Jesse Pinkman of Peacemaker.

A (20:52)

Exactly. When you have a star this powerful who has gripped the masses this fully, you got to use them. You got to use them.

B (20:59)

And I feel like the effects have improved. Maybe it's that three and a half year gap, but he's, he looks more natural to me.

A (21:05)

He's emoting very compellingly and like, compared.

B (21:09)

To, to Krypto, who is precious, of course, also. But when I watched that movie with my wife, she was like, I wish Crypto were a real dog. Not just in the sense that we all wish he were real and not just a fictional creation, but also, you know, you could kind of tell he was cg, which is understandable because he flies and he's super strong, etc. But like Eagle, he passes muster for me. Maybe that's just because I have less familiarity with eagle behavior than with dog behavior.

A (21:34)

I was going to say, I think there' cover in the fact that like most of the people who are watching are just less used to how an eagle or raccoon moves than a dog. But it's where it's, it's to the point in general about the effects. Like my other smuggle for this category is the moment where when Adebayo and Vigilante are leaving to go get Chris and they say goodbye to Eagly and he just kind of wobbles and squawks and chirps really despondently, like in a way that to me was so evocative and reminiscent of like how Halo behaves when we have to leave and he's like, don't go. I don't want you to go. I don't want to be alone. I'm sure this reminded you of Grumb as well. Yeah. That to me is magical. But I'm like, this is, this is just like how a pet behaves at the door when you have to go and they don't want you to. I love it.

B (22:20)

You did, I think, establish that Eagle is canonically more cat coded than dog coded. Which maybe that's just your, your bias. As a cat first person.

A (22:29)

I love all animals.

B (22:30)

I think I agree with you, even as a dog guy. But there's elements of both. There's just a lot to love.

A (22:35)

Yeah. When you're using your claws that much. I think it's just very.

B (22:38)

Yeah.

A (22:38)

Coded. Okay, let's get to the next category, which is best fight sequence. It sounds like some from something you've already said that you face the same struggle I did, which was making your pick for the Eagle category and then immediately being like, wait, is that my pick for best fight sequence too? But I did end up landing on an alternate nomination. Did you?

B (22:57)

That's probably my pick if I'm gonna go with my heart. But you could say it's kind of, you know, there's a lot to choose from here too. Of course there's. We're sort of staying away from the premiere. But there is the Harcourt Barf.

A (23:08)

Feel free. Feel free to nominate that.

B (23:10)

That's up there. I just want to mention it. You talked about it, so we don't have to dwell on it. And I guess also just the full on action sequence that Chris partakes in when he's in the alternate universe. And that was like an action movie. Just dropped into an episode of Peacemaker, basically.

A (23:26)

So that's my stuff. That's my pick. But I'll drill down on something specific inside of it. So this was in episode three when Peacemaker just destroys the Sons of Liberty. And the alternate dimension has been said. But I would like to award in this category the double ear Double pencil kill.

B (23:47)

Yeah.

A (23:47)

The pencil swirly kill.

B (23:49)

Yeah.

A (23:49)

Which I assume was inspired by John Wick. I mean, feels like it has to be, but who knows? As soon as he grabbed the pencils from the cup on the desk, you knew, you knew what he was grabbing them for. But I'm thinking of all sorts of things. Both in the ear with him lowering Kris, hiding in the ceiling, lowering himself from the ceiling. Having the hand eye coordination to get both in the air at once. And then the control. The pencils don't snap. And then he swirls the subtitling in this sequence is flesh squelching. Gross.

B (24:23)

We love a squelch subtitle.

A (24:25)

We love the squelch here at House of Squad.

B (24:26)

It reminded me.

A (24:27)

So how could I not pick it?

B (24:28)

Battle of Endor where the Ewoks let the. The logs go and crush the atsd. That was this move, but with a skull, essentially.

A (24:36)

So it's a mashup of the events on Endor and John Wick.

B (24:40)

Yeah.

A (24:40)

What are we going to complain about?

B (24:42)

It's a good crossover.

A (24:45)

Okay, let's get to our next category. This is a. Maybe a more crowded field. I kind of think we're going to have the same pick here anyway though. Let's find out. Favorite new character. Favorite new character.

B (24:55)

I gotta go with my man, Tim Meadows.

A (24:58)

That's my.

B (24:59)

Yeah. How could it. How could it not be?

C (25:00)

He's an icon.

A (25:02)

This is. This is so entertaining. He's so. His tone is so perfect for this dialog and, like, the. The kind of witty repartee that's necessary in these scenes. Did you have a favorite moment so far with our guy Langston Fleury do.

B (25:16)

And it might cross over with another category that we're going to get to.

A (25:19)

But we don't have another category devoted to two people performing a blowjob at once. So I'm wondering what you're going to mention now.

B (25:27)

True, there was that, but I think earlier in that exchange, or a different exchange, I mean, the bird blindness conversation. Just the concept of bird blindness, the concept of having an academic book, learning knowledge of hummingbirds, but not knowing what that means in practical terms, not being able to distinguish between an eagle and a duck. Just. Yes. He's added so much to this season. That's all. I'll say.

A (25:55)

Bird blindness was the kind of thing definitely, where if you showed somebody a scene absent the awareness of who made the show, and they, like, didn't necessarily know that John Economos, the other character in that scene, was in Peacemaker or something, if they had been deprived of enough knowledge to know for sure that it was Peacemaker, but had seen James Gunn's stuff before, I think they'd be like, this is a James Gunn scene.

B (26:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (26:21)

The nicknames Ginger Cool, it's better than Diebeard. I'm glad Ginger Cool has entered our lives. I just think that he has been such an effective vessel for Peacemaker's very specific. Not just crude humor. Obviously, he's being used heavily on that front, but kind of just like the deliberately absurd nature of the humor. He's been great there, and I really like the way that he's had effective scenes and moments with a number of different characters. Obviously, mostly it's been with Economos, and I kind of always love Economos scenes as a rule, so that's helpful. But, you know, there's some interesting tension with Bordeaux. There is some tension with judomaster. And then we get a little moment at the end of the stretch of episodes we're covering that feels really important. It's good that you did that moment with Economos, and by extension, hardcore, about booking Chris. Like, the little glimpse of morality or humanity inside of the PEZ dispenser of insults. It's like, I think, important to have glimpse so far. So, yeah, he's been just really entertaining.

B (27:32)

And then when we leave him in episode five, he's kind of frozen out a little bit by this budding whatever it is between Flag and Sasha. So maybe he's on the outs there. Who knows where his loyalties lie. Is he someone who could be turned, could be a powerful ally? So we'll see. And yeah, I love that about the show. Just the running bits throughout a season or across multiple seasons and the nicknames is one of them. But even there it's funny. But there's also some growth because Economos basically shuts that down in this season. Right. Whereas Diebeard is a running thing throughout season one. And then we get the just heart wrenching, tear jerking origin story of the actual die bearding.

A (28:13)

One of my favorite moments of season one.

B (28:15)

Yeah. And of course, you know, he's like the unlikely action hero of season one who comes in and cleans up whenever he's pressed into service. So that or like, you know, judomaster, just all the things that keep coming back that you think were just tossed off almost. And then it's just a bit that runs throughout the show. So yeah, he's been huge addition. Just, just has elevated, raised the series game.

A (28:38)

You mentioned Rick Flag Sr. And Sasha Bordeaux. Obviously Flag has been in other properties. This is not a new character, not a debut, but Sasha Bordeaux is a new figure in the story. What is your read on that vibe? Obviously the flirtation is palpable, it's active, it's ratcheting up as we go. But then you're pairing that with something like as they're driving out to the cabin to try to try to reach the rift in time to try to catch Peacemaker using it, there's that look, that look that passes from Sasha to Flag. Is she playing him? Is she trying to use her sexual power to what, gain access to information, bend him to her will? What is your. What is your. Do you have a prediction for what we're going to see on that front?

B (29:27)

Seemed like there was some manipulation going on maybe. I mean it was kind of a sudden. Come on. And yeah, I don't know exactly what her motivations are. That's one of the things I like about this season, is that everyone does have kind of multiple motivations going on here.

A (29:44)

Yeah. And a lot of divided loyalties and.

B (29:46)

Pulls in multiple directions and things that we've just discovered this season. Just, you know, the relationships between the Ricks Jr. And Harcourt, of course, and how that colors Harcourt's relationship with Peacemaker or Both peacemakers. Right. So it's kind of complicated because we've got multiple couples and love triangles or whatever. But yeah, that. And what you just mentioned with, with Flurry, is Flurry a Nick Fury Nick Fury Flurry? Is that something? I don't know. I don't know if that's intentional. Like, the 30 seconds to Mars Denigration seemed to be.

A (30:21)

That was so savage.

B (30:22)

But no, it does seem like we can't completely read all of these characters even more than halfway through the season now. And so there's a lot about this alternate universe that we are still discovering, but also about these new characters especially.

A (30:36)

Yeah. And then the characters who we can read and we feel like we have a clearer beat on and understand better. We still. One of the things that we understand, we still see is that like there are competing draws on their heart, on their mind. Like, I really liked how we built towards something like Adebaya. Just saying to Harcourt, like, you are who I thought you were, actually. But the fact that there are moments of doubt, you know, is important and I think human. This is a good transition into our next category. Which is the most compelling relationship for you through five episodes of season two. Is it one of the ones you just mentioned? Is it Kristen Harcourt? Is it something else? What are you picking here? Can you even pick?

B (31:17)

Yeah, I mean, to me, the heart of the show really is Chris and Adebayo, and it still is, I think. So that's not a new answer. Obviously, we got some clarity on. On them moving past her reluctant betrayal of him last season and they've patched things up and maybe it's brought them closer in a way, but just both of them kind of being in this in between stage and not being employed and possibly putting ads that people are interpreting the wrong way in magazines that no one reads. You know, they're both unwanted in a way, and they're bonding over that. And Harcourt's been in sort of the same boat. So, you know, this team has broken up and they've all just scattered and they're trying to find their way apart or together. But that is still just sort of the beating part of this show. No offense to Adrian. VIJ would hate to hear me say this, obviously, and to put any relationship with Peacemaker over his own. But that to me is just still why I'm watching first and foremost.

A (32:20)

Yeah. So I have a related but slightly tweaked just because I'm cheating version of that. I will say I did consider because this is a season two, mid season check in exercise, I did consider going with Chris and alternate dimension Keith, because I think that is just like a fantastic choice on a storytelling front to present Chris Smith with the brother whose loss in his universe has defined his entire life, with a father as well, who is alive and loves him, and Amelia, who he has, in fact, been romantically involved with and might be romantically involved with again, all of that, but Keith in particular, just because we've gotten more conversations between them and more interactions between them so far through five episodes. But I'm like, I'm with you. I kind of couldn't talk myself into something that wasn't an 11th street kids pick here. It's just that I like that is for me also the heart of the show and the soul of the show. And you said it. I love a found family. This is very Guardians coded to, like, not just found family, but the misfits who find a sense of belonging and acceptance with each other. I'm going without a Biochrist, but I'm expanding it. I'm going with Adebayo and everyone. Every single Adebayo pairing has worked for me this season, obviously for all the reasons you said. With Adebayo and Chris, I'm with you. I have no. I have nothing to add and no counterarguments. That relationship is just, like, wonderful. I think the Adebayo vigilante scenes have been incredible. The Adebayo Harcourt scenes have been great. The Adebayo economo scenes have been great. I'm surprised you didn't pick that just because of the Grand Theft Auto mention. You know, even the stuff with Key and the dogs, it's like basically every single scene that Adebayo is in is good. And the fact that those relationships all feel not only compelling because Daniel Brooks is such a compelling performer and the character is so winning, but because each of them actually does feel, like, distinct to how those two characters would interact. And then you get something like, I don't know, the fact that she is the one that Adebayo is the one who's, like, there to hug and cradle vigilante when he breaks down and is experiencing this wave of emotion was just so touching. You know, she's the person everybody else can confide in or look to. She's always the one who's going to tell the other person what they need to hear. And I think that Adebayo's ability to juggle and balance, like, really unflinching, unyielding feedback, like, I'm your friend and so it's my responsibility to tell you something uncomfortable and unpleasant with always still empathy and tenderness. Like, I thought the, the scene with Chris where he revealed everything and she was like, have you considered that, like that none of that is real and you just walked into a magical sphere that's showing you what you want. I was like, I don't think that's what's happening in the show, but she's making me think of something interesting there. Right. And when she said, like, you know, we just, we carry the things in us that we need to confront, she's wise, she's tender, she's obviously hysterical, she's a badass. So she's the best. And I just love that we've gotten to see her featured with so many different members of this core group in the collective, but also in those distinct pairings, I think it's been great.

B (35:45)

Yeah, no, she's. She's the glue guy, the glue girl of the show. She's kind of like the. The O negative universal donor she can do scenes with. And there feels like there's a real heartfelt relationship there. And yeah, with Kris, it's maybe particularly poignant just because of everything they've been through. And, you know, they're kind of striking off on their own, or at least they attempted to at first. You know, she wants to fit in and she wants to be part of this larger establishment, but then she goes rogue and speaks up and is blackballed because of that. And then Chris wants to join the justice gang and they don't want him, and so he's just doing his own thing and she's trying to start her own business. And so that's sort of touching slash inspiring and. Yeah, what you're saying, I think that's something I've appreciated about this season, even though I want to see the gang get together again. The fact that we've seen all of these, like almost every permutation of the members of this group splitting off on their own and not even for some sort of story related reason is the thing. It's not like, oh, we've got to go do this, and so we're the only two people who are available or something. We just meet them midstream, like, we don't even know. Did they just text each other and.

A (36:55)

Say it's like the rhythm of their lives?

C (36:57)

Yeah, right.

B (36:57)

And, you know, I mean, the most notable example of that, of course, is this boat hookup that we still have not seen but have heard about. And that's a little jarring. Why didn't we See this. Maybe we still will. But even all of these lower stakes pairing where. Where people are just hanging out, people who you don't really think of as being the closest in that group and you wouldn't maybe have pictured them hanging out on their own without kind of the social lubricant of the other group members.

A (37:23)

Yeah.

B (37:24)

And yet they are. And we just kind of meet them there as if this is like a regular occurrence for them to hang out. And that's. That's special. That just reinforces this bond even though we haven't gotten to see these characters together as often.

A (37:36)

Yeah, I'm with you. Let's switch tones from the. The feels to the laughs.

B (37:41)

Yeah.

A (37:43)

Most amusing sequence.

B (37:44)

Yeah. This is where I was hinting at the bird blindness. If I had to choose the most amusing sequence, I'd probably double up on this. But yeah. Honorable mention, I guess. Speaking of unlikely pairings. Vigilante tenderly tucking economists into bed in the bathtub. Which was explored further in the Stinger.

A (38:06)

Yeah.

B (38:06)

Loved that. Cherished that.

A (38:08)

Yeah.

B (38:09)

There are so many funny exchanges this season. But that stood out, I guess in addition to the. The bird blindness, which just kind of takes the cake for me this year.

A (38:17)

Yeah. My pick here, which is not a pick but is also not a cop out because I mean it as sincerely as I've ever meant anything, is everything that Vigilante does, which just continues to really work for me. I think that. I think the Vigilante is a riot. I particularly enjoyed if I'll. I'll drill down further on of all of his. Like, quiz me on this creature. I. Yes, exactly. Quiz me on this creature that I'm going to tell you I know a ton about and I don't actually know anything about the Crowfax have been my favorite on that front. I thought his response in episode two to be excluded from the orgy was just vintage Vigilante and very good. The like dancing with the mop after using the bonesaw to clean up the grisly body disposal. Also in episode two was exceptional. You've alluded to the conversation on the porch between Adebayo and Vigilante about his read on the conversation that he overheard with one of the gentlemen who has come across her ad. Very memorable response from Vigilante there. That was really something. So that's. Yeah, I think it's hard for me not to pick a Vigilante moment when talking about the things that have made me laugh the most in the show. I will award though as like an honorable mention here. I think Economos is also incredibly amusing. And the thing that made me laugh the most on the Economos front this season so far was in episode five when he and Harcourt go into the break room and she's like trying to tell him to convince him to book Kris. And she's like, you know, you were just giving me shit about trying to get my job back. And he said, yeah, but we exist on completely different moral spectrums. I'm famously a gigantic pussy. For me, just looking somebody directly in the eyes is an act of heroism.

B (40:18)

Yeah.

A (40:19)

Incredible stuff. He's the best.

B (40:21)

Yeah. And of course.

A (40:22)

And then shout out.

B (40:23)

Quite courageous at times. As rises to the moment, he rises to the occasion when he has to. Not we love eye contact, but with machine gunning white supremacists, if that's what the. The moment requires.

A (40:35)

So, yeah, we love a reluctant, surprising hero. I do think we should also shout out the woman in the the drugstore who was part of the beaker scene. And yes, the guy was like, is that bad? And she said, it's not good. It's not good. That was really funny.

B (40:54)

I like that Vigilante Adebayo scene just because he's so often the oblivious one who is failing to pick up on the social cues. And in that instance, at least he's.

A (41:04)

A little more worldly.

B (41:05)

Yeah, he'll surprise you from time to time. Not with his knowledge of owls or manta race. I'm still thinking about the. The owl's eyes being tubes. Wouldn't the tubes just be all over the ground if that were the case? Excellent point.

A (41:19)

I'm still thinking about manta rays being the pancake of the sea vigilante. I'm like. I think of all the things I'm most excited for on what episodes six, seven and eight, like, presumably have in store for us. And like, we should say again, they didn't send screeners for those episodes. We have not seen them. I don't believe anybody has seen them. That makes me think there's a lot of stuff coming in those episodes. Two of the three remaining episodes are. They're all written by James Gunn. Two of them are also directed by James Gunn. Sure, there's a ton coming. I'm sure there are. A lot of big dcu connective tissue reveals. The thing I'm like, maybe most excited for is just Vigilante finding another version of Vigilante at some point. I can't believe we're lucky enough to get treated to that. I hope.

B (42:04)

Yeah.

A (42:07)

Let's cry again.

B (42:08)

Okay.

A (42:11)

Most Touching moment.

C (42:12)

Oof.

B (42:14)

Yeah. I mean, I think when Chris decides to leave, I know that's. That's probably what I do. Right.

A (42:22)

But, yeah.

B (42:23)

Yeah. How do you top that? Just.

A (42:25)

Oh, my God.

B (42:26)

To shut the door, figuratively, literally, on his entire life and start fresh and think that Harcourt is. He's. He's under a misapprehension about what she was doing and why she was doing it. So there's sort of a. A misunderstanding there. And just fleeing this world because he thinks he's not wanted there, obviously. His whole arc, where he seemed to validate everything, like he's been on a journey. Right. He's evolved as a character, and yet he's not really treated any differently by most people. He's still kind of dismissed as a joke.

A (43:00)

Right.

B (43:00)

He is, you know, regarded as a killer. Like, he can't put his past behind him. To be fair, it's. It's a troublesome past. Perhaps there's some penance that must be paid here. But, yeah, people have not really realized that this is a new peacemaker, that he's turned over a new leaf. And so that's sad that he thinks that he can't change in this world, that that door is closed, and so he has to close it and go to this other world that he thinks will be a happier, warmer place. Yeah.

A (43:28)

I thought this was, like, very moving and really sad. And the combination of, like, the letter, the reading of the letter. I just loved stylistically, the shift from Adebayo reading it to the other 11th street kids into us hearing Chris read it in voiceover form as we start to glimpse and see little bits and pieces of his new life. The top trio with Eagly by their side in the sky in this dimension where he is adored. And I think what you. What you said is exactly right. It's like this great combination of. I think it's interesting enough to say that other place has the things that I want or that I think I want. And so I am drawn toward it. Like, how could you not be? But to pair that with in this Other Place just rejects me. Time and again, no matter what I do, I actually have tried to be a better person. I have, like, reflected and attempted to learn, and it's not enough. I still don't feel like this is the place where I can build a life. I've tried again and again to make up for my mistakes, he said, but I'm not sure redemption is something that's truly possible, at least not here. So I'm going to make A life in the other world. I'm going to be a brother to my brother, a son to my dad, and I'm going to tell Amelia. Yes. And then, like, that cut to Harcourt's face. She knows how he feels about her, obviously. Like, he's been making that abundantly clear. But for her to have to, like, process, okay, that is a part of the reason that he has chosen to leave his entire existence behind to go try to be with me, a me who wants him. It's all just really good. And I love, like, just the simplicity of, in the letter, him saying, I'll cherish life. Like, I just thought that was a great little touch. And you've got Guns N Roses, November Rain is playing. And then you cut to Vigilante breaking down. It was, like, really good. And then Chris has been summoned to battle the Kaiju. And then that return, coated in Kaiju goo, running toward Harcourt, running toward the thing that he thinks is going to make him happy. And it's not that I want him to be miserable in that other world, but I am very invested in him embracing the fact that the things that actually have value and make him happy are already present in his life. That doesn't diminish the losses. That doesn't diminish the trauma. But finding value in these other things and finding a way to recognize that those other people, like, love him, too and have them go try to find him and show him that and tell him that, I think, will be, like, a really great way to end this season, if that's where it's going.

B (46:00)

So, yeah, yeah, I considered kind of the polar opposite emotionally, which was the rooftop scene that you alluded to earlier in episode two when they do all get back together and Economos is there, even trying and failing to catch beers thrown to him by Vigilante. Like, that moment. You know, obviously, there's the subtext there with Harcourt and Chris and there's some tension and there's drama, but most of it is just. It's nice to see these guys back together again. Obviously, that's episode two. We only had to put up with one episode when they were just splintered, but just to see that they could be back together. And, you know, in retrospect, I guess it's even more poignant to look at that scene after episode five.

A (46:41)

Yeah, for sure.

B (46:42)

After Chris decides that he actually has to leave. Because in that scene, there's still hope that this group can make it together. And then that turns out not to be the case for now. But I'M still holding out hope for our friends made.

A (46:54)

So, yeah. Most creative use of the alternate reality. What is, what is your pick here? Is it the obvious? Is it the brother is alive, Keith is here? Is it something else?

B (47:07)

I didn't choose the, the Keith Chris relationship as you considered because, you know, to this point, and I hope this will change, but we haven't gotten that much depth to it. It's all just kind of, you know, Keith and the father are kind of these cardboard cutouts basically of like these are the happy family members that I never had. We haven't really gotten that much of a sense of their relationship. And maybe now that he's over there full time, we will. And perhaps it won't be quite as rosy as it seems. But it's funny, like, I really appreciated when the only use of the multiverse in this series was just as a storage closet.

A (47:43)

Yeah. Because. Yeah.

B (47:45)

So on some level I miss just having, you know, quantum unfolding chamber. That's just a place to store stuff or put your helmets or have eagly take eagly for a fly in the morning.

A (47:55)

Stretch those wings. Yeah.

B (47:57)

Yeah, I like that. And so there's part of me that's sort of sad that it, it went beyond that because that was kind of a fun little bit just poking fun at how much multiverse there in everything these days. But yeah, I mean this might also be connected to the next category and last category we talk about. But it's not just that Keith is here and the dad is here. And by the way, I have to shout out because Jo would if she were here the wig work on Robert Patrick in the flashback scenes in episode four. We go back 35 years and the only hunting mullet. Yeah. Is that he's got the mullet. It's very much a original Dexter approach to de aging. Just have a funny looking wig and call it a day. But you know, I think the reappearance of, of Rick Flag Jr. That's my pick too. Yeah, that's. That adds a lot to this story.

A (48:51)

This is great. I, I, as, as Golic and I talked about in the, in the premiere pod, I was hoping that this was going to happen simply based on. It had never occurred to me actually. Just based on how the season was teased and the trailers where it was very clear like other dimensions were going to be a part of this. I was not thinking about, oh, are we gonna confront a still alive version of Rick Flag Jr. And have to face all of that trauma? And obviously, because as you alluded to earlier, like, we didn't know until this season about the history between Harcourt and Rick Flag Jr. The depth of the friendship, but also the romantic involvement. I would not have had any way of anticipating that there would be, like, an even deeper tangling and entangling of that web. But when we heard that word, when we heard Jarhead, it was just like, they're teasing that. Who else could this possibly be, right? So that was pretty fun to have a couple episodes of Theory Corner Anticipation, but then not have to wait too long for the payoff. And I really hope that we get more because I will say I thought, as always, Joel Kidman is always, always a delight. He's always great. I thought the. Actually, even though I'm always the hottest, coolest, suavest, most capable person in the room, in this reality, I'm like, yeah, really nervous around my girlfriend, who I think likes another dude better. And like, you know, the whole bit with like, the cubicles and him trying to eavesdrop and spy and the, the, the. The anxious reaction to being found out because of the trash can banging, like, all of that was really comedic and fun. And I like deploying him differently in that respect. I hope we get more time between Rick Flag Jr. In that world and Peacemaker himself, because I thought that was a little hurried, his response. I was waiting for him to completely crumble in the literal face of one of the great mistakes in the history of his life. We moved on from it pretty quickly. So I assume that there's. There will be a lot of things that Chris Smith is uncovering about life in that world that make him less comfortable, there are less content or have to face the things that that version of. Of him continue to face and learn that that version of him did things that he now has to be responsible for, basically, but that is his responsibility. The, The. The grief and trauma that he brings on the Rick Flag front. So, yeah, I don't know, like, I don't know how many episodes he's going to appear in, but I hope we get a little, A little more on that front.

B (51:29)

Yeah, me too. And that's deepened the relationship in the prime universe too, just because, you know, we get a deeper insight now into Harcourt, who really has the same grudge against Peacemaker that Flag Sr. Does. Obviously, she's handling it in a slightly different way and not completely pummeling him, at least physically, verbally, sometimes, even if she's not trying to kill him to get revenge. You can understand why she's been a bit frosty with him. Why she might be reluctant to invest in this relationship given the previous relationship with a guy Peacemaker killed. So, you know, you might have assumed that's just her. Her tough, you know, hard bitten exterior. Right. But obviously there's much more to that that we.

A (52:11)

Yeah. If you've developed feelings for the guy you swore to. To pursue vengeance against. Yeah. That would be a complicated thing to have to navigate. So. I agree. That's been. That's been enriching in all respects. Last category, as always. A crowded field.

B (52:28)

Yeah.

A (52:29)

Most innovative use of a gun verse regular. I once again assume that we have the same pick here, but perhaps not.

B (52:37)

Well, so this was where I was kind of counting Flag. I don't know whether by gun verse regular you mean just, you know, the multiple flags have appeared all over the.

A (52:46)

Gun verse meaning any. It doesn't even have to be contained to D.C. anything that he has made the performers who he likes to feature a spoiler. I'm going with Michael Rooker as Ray St. Wild here.

B (52:56)

Yeah. Yes. No, I like Merle Dixon, the Eagle Hunter. That was kind of an out of left field choice even for this show. Yeah, that's a good one.

C (53:06)

Yeah.

B (53:06)

I mean, I'd stick with Flag, I guess, just because it's a great one. Joel Kinnaman, Shout out for All Mankind Coming Back Soonish. But the way that that's enriched the show, the relationships, you know, not just an actor we like, but also. Yeah, it's just added a lot of layers to this whole thing. But it's true, he does have his. His troupe, his cast of characters, his ensemble that he made over and over.

A (53:30)

Sometimes the layers are emotional, like the ones you just beautifully peeled back for us. And sometimes the layers are layers of flavor. And I would like to share a quote with you from one of the. The Stingers have been really fun. The Stingers, which are basically like, as you. As you've noted, a brief little expanded versions of scenes. We've already gotten Red St. Wilde, a character who I always love to see. Michael Rooker, whether he's wearing a decorative hat or a magical fin or anything else. I was appalled in the run up to season two to learn that there would be a character whose entire role in the story was to hunt Eagly. I was dismayed and frankly full of despair. But of course this has been like so debauched and deranged that it's been very entertaining. I do have questions about whether a wound. I know head wounds bleed quite freely, but whether you could be pooling enough blood on Your fingers to trace the outline of the prime eagle that many hours after you had originally injured yourself. I'm not sure. But what I will say is mystical powers at play. I guess so yeah. Four days old. Hints of cold cuts, tater chips. I got hints of peppermints, Spam twizzlers, M&MS. Fruity Pebbles and protein powder. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Tikka masala, lima beans, Pad Thai, A five wagyu, Beluga caviar. Oh my God. That Eagle eats better than I do. That is of course red St Wild. Breaking down all of the flavors as he nibbles and gnashes on a four day old dried out glob of Eagly's shit in the stinger itself. That is interrupted by a number of responses from an absolutely incredulous John economist.

B (55:22)

Goes on a little longer. There's a longer list of ingredients.

A (55:26)

Unbelievable.

B (55:27)

Even your devotion to eagle. I think he surpasses you even if it's for nefarious reasons.

A (55:33)

Exactly.

B (55:34)

No, I worry about the bowels of that bird just because of how many trace elements are in here. I think economists mentioned you got all that from. From one. He ate all that between.

A (55:46)

Maybe.

B (55:46)

Maybe this lingers, I don't know, stays in the system. Maybe it's the mystical powers again. But yeah, Rip seemingly. Apparently that was very. Not to spoil anything, but very. The end of weapons sort of scene.

A (56:02)

I've not seen. I've not seen that film. I'm not sure if I would be able to handle seeing weapons. Seems like that. Does that mean that a number of eagles kill a person and then at one point another one of the eagles brings a finger to somebody and that person says I'm going to pretend you.

B (56:17)

Found that not that different from that.

A (56:19)

Okay.

B (56:19)

Yeah.

A (56:20)

Interesting.

B (56:21)

Yeah, just a tease.

A (56:23)

All right, Ben, those are our mid season awards. Is there anything else that you'd like to say about Peacemaker through five episodes of season two?

B (56:30)

Well, I don't know if you pry it all with gun, but do we want to do any speculation theory corner about this alternate universe? I guess we can return to throw.

A (56:39)

Out any theories that you have if you've got them. What's on your mind?

B (56:43)

Very conspicuous absence of non white people in this world. Which many have pointed out. Perhaps suggestive of the nature of this reality. Maybe that is why Auggie is so happy in this world. Everything's going great for him. People have speculated that the absence of any kind of American iconography, the fact that there's no Eagly, anything like that. Are we even in a United States. Is this some sort of alternate history scenario? How did we end up with this very homogeneous mix of people? So is that what Chris will find out potentially here? That it's not so much that he can't be happy with this long lost loving dad he never had and. And the long lost brother and hopefully Harcourt, but also what is happening in this society. Exactly what has not been stated plainly that has perhaps been hinted at. So I don't know if that's why this has all been shrouded in mystery or if it has more to do with cameos which Gun has also teased.

C (57:45)

Could be both.

A (57:46)

Probably both, yeah, for sure. My guess would be that cameos, big DCU tie ins, whatever sets up the events of man of Tomorrow, as Gunn has been teasing, including in our chat today, that that stuff is probably coming in episode eight and that there are other notable reveals in episode six and seven. But who knows, I mean, maybe we'll get some, some. Some DC ties sooner. Yeah, I think that whatever the specifics are, broadly what you are getting at feels very likely to me that there has to be a confronting of the. The micro and the macro, the intimate and the societal. Like what is different? What do you crave, what do you feel? What do you do you confront that you need to reject inside of a family unit or a relationship, but also then society at large. That will be a. A fascinating thing to watch. This Chris Smith seems like the.

B (58:45)

The original Chris who was killed here was not necessarily a better guy. Even if he has a happier family situation.

A (58:50)

Certainly not. Yeah. Yeah.

B (58:52)

He's seemingly just as violent, maybe unfaithful. Etc. Something's gone wrong with Harcourt. So why is it then that he has embraced in this version of society? Maybe he's not a better version of peacemaker. Maybe it's a worse version of a world.

A (59:09)

Right.

B (59:09)

And so ye what is tolerated and embraced. And maybe Chris realizes I'm flawed, but at least I'm. I'm in a better world that is demanding more of me or.

A (59:19)

Well, and I don't think it'll be quite as like, I don't. I would be shocked if it was like and this world is actually this world's bad and our world is great. Like obviously that's not the case, but I think having to interrogate when you're seeking validation, who are you seeking it from and what are they validating you for? Is a rich text to parse with this character. Undeniably so. Yeah, that would be really interesting and I'm curious to how long it takes the 11th street kids to open the door to figure out how to use the machine. Obviously, Adebayo's witness did. She has some sense. Are they going to immediately, in episode six, also be in this other reality and trying to compel him? Or is it going to take them a little bit of time to get to that place? How many other people are going to break through with them in the process of trying to do that? Are they going to cause. And I don't think he's just gonna do what he did in Superman again. But, like, we've heard enough mentions and had enough reminders of the rift in Metropolis to, I think, be on our guard. For there are the, like, interpersonal and community thematically resonant aspects of the story. And then I think there will be the, like, question of, basically, the canon, the multiverse. What is moving between worlds that we also surely will be spending time on or have to confront in some capacity. So are our pals gonna do something that unleashes some sort of horror back into the prime continuity? Like, is that. Is that possible? I think that we will. Do you think we're gonna have to say goodbye to anybody?

B (61:00)

I wouldn't be shocked. I guess we've gotten attached. And then I guess the question of who the most likely cameo is. They're the heavy hitters, obviously. I don't know if this is the most likely, but I'd love to see Mr. Terrific show up again. Here we go again. More multiverse nonsense. More pocket dimensions.

A (61:19)

Yeah, that would be great. I am not ruling out a Lex Luthor cameo. Given the Belle Reeve, like, argus of it all, I think that feels like, you know, I don't know. Nicole seems really busy taking, frankly, perfect selfies. I don't. I don't know. But that feels like something that it would make sense for us to see. What's Lex up to in prison? And also just all of these different, like, arbiters of power and aspects of government intervention or control. Like, I think that would be at home here if we got a little glimpse of Lex at some point. But, yeah.

B (62:02)

And how do these relationships that Peacemaker is trying to just appropriate, how did those really resonate? Like, can you just slide into someone else's life that you murdered and pick that up seamlessly? It might be the same person on the outside in the exterior, but obviously, different shared histories, different memories, different personalities. And so, yeah, those will probably clash in some way. You probably can't just slide into this alternate universe and feel at home there, even if you Have Eagle by your side.

A (62:31)

Yeah, I would expect not. I think that Chris did not do a very close reading of the newspaper headlines in the library. To your point about what's really going on in this world, that seems clear, but also, like, we've gotten a couple moments where Keith is like, what's wrong with you today? You know, and can. Obviously there's an acknowledgment that Chris is behaving oddly, but when does that shift into, you are not recognizable as my brother. You are not recognizable as a person in my life. And does that become. How much of this will be about Chris saying, this is not right for me? After all, this is not what I want. After all, how much of it is that he is going to keep seeking it, desiring it, and then it will turn against him? You are not the right one. Like, I could see. I could see either of those. I could see any. Any number of versions of that.

B (63:12)

So, yeah.

A (63:13)

Yeah. I just hope Eagly's okay. I. I'm. I really. I don't want to say goodbye to anybody, but I will not accept saying goodbye to Eagly. Adebayo Economos. I don't want to say goodbye to Vigilante, but, like, I feel like at any point he could just get chopped into a million pieces or, like, dissolved in acid or something.

B (63:29)

So, yeah, I'm hoping Eagly is untouchable at this point, that there's some powerful plot armor there. It would be tough. But, yeah, now I just. I hope that this Chris doesn't fall back into the. The wayward ways of this other Chris who's been popping pills and who knows what else. I'd like to see him lift for once. We just never see Peacemaker's workout routine, which I've been waiting for. Let's see him hitting those delts. When does he find the time?

A (63:54)

This is a classic you take.

B (63:56)

I mean, he's poisoning himself constantly. He's taken all sorts of abuse, he's beaten up, he's bloody. But we never actually see him training the way that we know he must be at some point. So give me a glimpse at least of that before the show is over.

A (64:11)

I support you. I'm really invested in judomaster's Flamin Hot Cheeto consumption. Will he be able to find Cheetos in this alternate reality? I don't know, but it feels right that that's what I'm looking for. And you're looking for. What's the 3am gym routine? It tracks. It tracks.

B (64:24)

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A (64:54)

All right, Ben, thank you for joining me for our mid season awards. Let's go now to my mid season chat with James Gunn. All right, everyone. I told him it was copacetic, but he showed up anyway. Yeah, it's J Gun. Welcome back to the pod. I'm so excited to chat today. We have more time today than the six and a half minutes we had last time. So we have a lot to get to about episode five, the season to date, the future, et cetera.

C (65:20)

Let's do it.

A (65:21)

Can't wait. All right, episode five. Let's start there. It ends with a real emotional wallop. Chris's decision to go inhabit his variant's life in the alternate dimension and to close the door behind him. And of course, his letter to the 11th street kids. Chris has arrived at a moment that I think actually a lot of people confront, which is it's not that he couldn't change, it's that he tried to. And in some ways he actually did. And then it felt like it didn't matter, right? It felt like it didn't make a difference. And that was true for him in the most intimate ways in his life. You know, obviously his father, his brother, Amelia. And it's also then true, like in Mass at scale. One world is mocking him through an open mic and the other one cheers him as he drives by. So there's validation in one world, in the places he would think, think to look, the places that he would think he should seek it. And so how, of course, could that not be tempting? But I'm really struck through just at least what we've glimpsed of the other dimension through five episodes by what seems to be missing there. No eagly for that other Chris. Right? Our Chris had to bring his own.

C (66:25)

He brought his eagle.

A (66:26)

Yeah, tells me a lot. And at least based on what we've seen so far, no 11th street kids like no friend group of that sort. So to the extent that you can answer this, given that you're obviously not going to tell us what happens in the final three episodes, more thematically, how much of what you were interested in exploring this season and how much of Chris's journey this season is about realizing that he does actually have the love and the appreciation that he seeks, just in a different form.

C (66:55)

Yeah, I don't think that's really giving away. I think that definitely the season is to a great deal is about acceptance. It's about accepting who we are. It's about accepting what we have in life. It's like not looking for other things outside of ourselves to make ourselves happy, but instead of being grateful for the things that we do have. And I think that Chris is going to the other world because of all the sort of, you know, big, you know, checklist things. It has a father who loves him, a brother who's still alive, a world that thinks he's a hero, but he's also going to escape. You know, he has changed, but that doesn't mean just because you've changed, you don't have to deal with all of the things that you've created in your life because of your actions. And our lives are what we create. Our lives are born of our choices. And, and Chris is choosing to say, I'm not going to deal with the fact that I did this and this and this in my life. You know, I'm not saying that the justice gang is right for making fun of him, but he killed people not too carefully in his early life. And that's not exactly something that, you know, you know, Guy Gardner making a crack about him that's sort of, you know, homophobic, isn't actually, you know, that bad in comparison, you know, so, yeah, I think that's really. That is a lot about what the season's about.

A (68:36)

Yeah, well, let's stick on that. On that subject of just, like, choices and the decisions that we make and how they define us. Because something that I've really been struck by this season is, like, how much of it seems to be about split loyalties both across character groups, but then also, you know, inside of each individual heart and mind. My co host here on the pod, and I like, fairly routinely, very regularly quote George R.R. martin quoting William Faulkner. Conflict in the human heart. It's the only thing worth writing about. And one of the really delicious aspects of season two, I think, so far, is that sometimes that manifests, as I've heard you put it, in water, seeking its own level. So when we hear Harcourt declare in a flashback that the person who killed Rick Flagg Jr. Will pay, I believe, believe her. I think that's completely sincere. Right. And then now we have this additional ability to, like, understand how, how she received Chris in season one and, and, and why. And then we also understand why she might be so resistant to her feelings for him evolving organically in real time. Because it's not just like, do I want to sleep with the guy who killed my ex and my best friend? It's also, okay, I have to keep telling this guy that I'm not as fucked up as he is, because admitting that I am means that I'm as bad as someone I'm supposed to hate. And that's, like, a pretty heavy realization to work your way toward. But I think it's more honest, right? It ultimately is more honest. And so, like, structurally, I'm curious how important it is to have inside of a season like this, a framework that feels very precise. Chris or Rick, the 11th Street Kids or Argus, when really those choices are just portals of another sort inside of this story, like, into understanding and hopefully accepting who you are and how you want to live your life.

C (70:33)

Yeah, I mean, I do. I think that, you know, from one point of view, you know, it takes something incredibly simple to have the most complex reactions on this group of human beings. And I think that it is. It's. You know, that was really, really, for me, like, the. The throughway into this season, because I do. I think I know these characters as well as I know any other characters. And in the same way I think that in the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, the secret protagonist all along was. I think that you can see in this season a lot of ways the protagonist is Harcourt, whose journey is equally important to peacemakers. And as peacemakers and making the big choices, they're having necessary repercussions on what Harcourt needs to face about herself. And she's dealing with the more. The more simple, you know, concept of somebody who seemingly loves her, just totally loves her. And that is. That's what also complicates Chris Journey, because Chris obviously loves Harcourt, and he's pretty. You know, he's not totally open about it, but we'll find out a lot more in the next episode. But, you know, he. He obviously really cares deeply for her. And so what is he sacrificing by going to this other world? And we see what I guess I always called Thirst Court, but the Internet now. Soft Court.

A (72:22)

Yeah.

C (72:23)

You know what. What is Soft Court? I mean, like, you know, he doesn't love. He doesn't love Soft Court software is cosplaying his hardcore in his brain. And so what is it is that. I mean, he doesn't have. He doesn't know who this woman is. He's right with her on a bench for five minutes. He doesn't know he's in love with her because he's in love with somebody else who looks exactly like her, you know?

A (72:48)

Yeah. Yeah. And of course, there's this, like, a version of that with Keith and with his father. It's like when you see the face of the thing you miss or the thing you want, of course you're. You're gonna seek it out, but that's not actually. It's not the same person. And that life is not your life. So I think this is just such a fascinating setting and context to, like, continue to explore that evolution and introspection. And I think, like, one of the things that you're hitting is the surprising nature of the bonds that develop between people in real time. And I just love the 11th Street Kids and that found friendship group and the way that it kind of ensnared all of them in a fashion they could not possibly have anticipated. That's one of my favorite things that can happen in a story. And I think, unsurprisingly, because of that just state of play. For me, one of my favorite scenes of the season so far was the rooftop hang in episode two. I just thought it was great, and obviously a great way, especially after the long gap between seasons, to remind us of those unlikely ties that these misfits have forged together and then all of the particular dynamics and pairings inside of that larger whole. But I think what I loved most about it was just the way that it cemented the ordinary inside of this extraordinary setting. And I think that sometimes that can feel like a magic trick to ground relationships in heightened world. Like the Avengers eating shawarma or, you know, drinking beers while trying to lift Mjolnir. Or, like, one of my favorite examples of this ever is Podrick singing Jenny of Oldstones before the Battle of Winterfell. It's just, like, amazing when things like that happen. You know, people being people for a minute right before they're asked to go be heroes again. And I'm curious, when you have a scene like that and a moment like that, what you are most focused on showcasing and centering inside of that and why it feels so important.

C (74:37)

Well, I think, you know, people like seeing the. You know, it's very simple. I mean, people like seeing the 11th Street Kids together and. And we don't. Next episode, we have a lot. But I think that there is, you know, there, you know, it's important that we focus on those moments and make the most of them. And I think that is just kind of reminding our audience, yeah, this is A group of friends. And at the end of the day, you know, Peacemaker, it is not the same type of show as, you know, even Game of Thrones or whatever, because it isn't a superhero show for sure. It isn't Captain America and the Winter Soldier. It's about a group of people, two of whom happen to put on costumes and go out and do some silly stuff. But at the end of the day, this season would much more likely be called Christopher Smith than Peacemaker. That's really who it's about. And the amount of times he even has on the Peacemaker costume so far that we've seen is not that many. It isn't about, you know, that it's about these. This group of human beings, one of whom, you know, two of whom who actually put on. On costumes and a couple of others who are pretty indebted into the sort of, you know, spy world, you know.

A (75:50)

Right, yeah, yeah. I'm curious, like in terms of what we know about everybody and what we don't at this point, just this idea of continuing to flesh out the past, like inside of that character set. This story is just very much rooted more broadly. The past shapes us. Right. And continues to shape us. And some of that has of course, been core text since the first season. And it's just foundational to how we have understood the characters, you know, Chris, his dad, Keith, et cetera. Some of that is being unfurled for us and revealed to us in real time, like Harcourt's history with Flag Jr. Of course, this season, that's a huge one. And I think that part of why the show can home at the right frequency as an ensemble is because it is actually like the season could be called Chris Smith, but it's not, as you mentioned earlier, with kind of the co protagonist just about Chris. And it's not fully oriented just around our understanding of Kris. Life we understand now increasingly. Well, there's always more to learn. But we understand what Harcourt has lost. We understand what Adebayo has sacrificed. We understand how this is one of my favorite through lines of the show so far. We understand how economos anxieties drive him and shape him, which is just such a human thing. Right. So I'm curious which character you're most interested in taking us deeper into next in terms of the past life?

C (77:19)

Well, yeah, I mean, I do think that, you know, in the same way I talked about Harcourt being so much the center of this season. I think last season it really was so much about, you know, Adebayo. Yeah, I Think last season was really about their friendship and this time it's about whatever you want to call it, a friendship or a romance, you know. And I think also we do get glimpses of say, John Economos and how he got hired by CIA, caught him breaking into the organization. He was a black hat, he was a child, he was pulled and he's been there ever since.

A (77:49)

That's how I got recruited. Yeah.

C (77:52)

It says so much about that character though, Right. Because he's incredibly talented guy who's focused his entire life on one thing, which is not really a thing he chose to do. It's a thing he had to do because otherwise he would have gone to jail.

A (78:05)

Right.

C (78:07)

And so, you know, but I do, you know, and then I think then of course we have Adrian, who I think in this recent episode was one of the most surprising things for me with Adrian, which was. It was surprising for me when I wrote it actually, because I am kind of going on the journey with these characters as I'm writing. And a lot of times they're doing what I've kind of planned out, but a lot of times they're sort of taking their own path. And when Adrien breaks down, that to me is a big thing where it's like, oh, I think there is a part of this character because I always think of Adrien as the guy who doesn't change. Like, they all have their arcs, they all change. Harcourt's in a worse place. Adam's in a. Much like despite her certain circumstances, Adam Biles in a kind of kick ass place like she is. Her life is miserable.

A (78:58)

Right.

C (78:59)

Her relationship is a mess, but she is kind of happy. You know, you kind of see that she is somebody who's found who she is and she no one else does.

A (79:11)

Yeah, she's very assured.

C (79:12)

Yes. And you know, she's happy and optimistic when nobody else is, you know, you know, economist is living this life of this thing that he didn't want to go back to. ARGUS he's afraid of going, going of being there. He doesn't want to be there, but he's afraid to leave. And so they all change. They're all different than they were from last season, except for Vigilante who is, you know, stunted emotionally and psychologically in so many ways. But we do see this moment when he loses his peacemaker and he breaks down sobbing and then the fact that it's his arch enemy, really, his Lex Luther is out of bio and that's comforts him and holds him as he cries and I really like that moment, and I know it was terrifying for Freddie as an actor, but it was like, I really like seeing that part of Vigilante that we don't normally see.

A (80:02)

Me, too. Yeah, I thought that was lovely. And I was actually going to ask you about this later, but I think now feels like an appropriate time. I wanted to talk to you about the way that the really authentic emotion can kind of catch us in real time, because I had a really lovely experience when I chatted with David Denman for our listeners who plays Keith heading into the season. And when I asked him about discovering and exploring what alt Keith, what Keith 2 unlocks, but also unmoors for Chris, he got choked up. He got choked up talking about young Chris and young Keith and the protection that Chris would have needed when he was a boy that he didn't have. And he said it made him think of his own kids. And then he said, like, it makes me emotional, and I'm not supposed to be emotional talking about stuff on a TV show. But, like, my response to that was like, no, that's what we do here, you know, and, like, it's been one of the great joys of the podcast and of, like, you know, just, like, luxuriating in these worlds that we love and then sharing them with each other and with our listeners. Because, you know, when people talk about the stories that they love and what inhabiting those worlds can help them process about their own lives and their own experiences, it just can be this, like, really liberating, kind of amazing thing. And I'm curious, like, you know, I'm on the other end of that, right? But I'm curious for you, like, what that feels like is a privilege, but also kind of a responsibility, like, knowing that the stories you're putting into the world can do that for people, whether they're your characters or your performers or your audience.

C (81:42)

Well, first of all, let me start with what it's like for me from the initial standpoint is I'm sobbing constantly while I'm writing this stuff. I cry all the time. And there's a scene in next week's episode that I have cried every single time I've seen the scene Jen and I last night were watching because we're doing the podcast, the companion podcast, and we had to watch the podcast that went along with that episod to okay it for the HBO guys, and. And I got choked up then, you know, when we're talking about the scene and what the scene means. So I'm as invested or more invested than anyone in this, these characters. I was like that with the Guardians also, you know, but I, I think that anything that allows people to really, truly feel emotions that are of, that are about the relationships between human beings or that are the nature of us being lonely and needing connection, which I think is what all, you know, all of my stuff is about at the end of the day is, is a really a positive thing to be able to put into the world. And so whether it's just a little twinge in your heart or whether it's actual tears or sobbing or whatever, I mean, that is, that is, that's the pinnacle of what I can do. That's bigger than a jump scare or laughing or whatever. That's really what matters the most to me, you know, because I think that these characters, you know, these characters that we fall in love with, we fall in love with them in the same way we fall in love with our friends and our family in the same way we fall in love with ourselves. I mean, I think, you know, people are always surprised that the characters I see myself in, I think that people are always surprised that Rocket was totally me in Guardians. I see myself in Lex more than anyone else in Superman. I see myself in Harcourt in this show more than anybody else. Those are the characters that I kind of myself in. And so there is, I'm not doing any of this therapeutically. That isn't my goal ever. But that doesn't mean that's not the result.

A (83:53)

Right? Yeah, of course. I, oh, there are so many different places we could go from there. I, I, let's stick. You mentioned Rocket a couple times. So, so let's, let's stick there because my emotional connection to Rocket was supreme. I mean, we did like a three, I, I've covered all of the Guardians movies in depth on the pods over the years. We did like a three hour pod on volume three and I basically stopped through the entire thing. It was, I couldn't, I couldn't stop. And so I must, for the second interview in a row, ask you about Eagly who. You know, it's just in the midst of a remarkable season. Look like all I need to do on the Guardians three front is invoke the names Rocket, Lila, Teefs and Floor. And everybody who's watching or listening to this podcast is just going to need to go back to therapy immediately. So Floor.

C (84:44)

Floor is one of the hard. Floor is one of the hardest. Yeah, it really is. Floor is brutal. Yeah, Florida was brutal for me. Floor was brutal. Like, I, I don't know how I was ever able to, but it just. It's what happened, you know, I mean, I was describing Rocket's backstory, and I had to, you know, that's just what happened.

A (85:03)

Well, okay, so this is actually what I want to ask you, because, you know, I. I would like to thank you for. For treating us to the Eagly hero strut at the end of episode two. Just remarkable stuff. Astonishing. Astonishing stuff. But I do want to ask you about, like, seeing these animals in peril in your stories. I know you're an animal lover. I'm an animal lover. When I watched Red St. Wild Hunt Eagly, I found myself overcome with, like, a frankly alarming desire to crawl through my television and push him into his ritual fire. Like, so how much of this is, like, intentional as you're setting down to craft your stories? How much of it is just where you go in real time? Like, when we see these creatures in these states of peril, it obviously is deeply distressing and a source of torment, but that speaks to ultimately how deep our investment is in the characters and in the world and in their relationships and them and the people who love them. So I'm wondering, like, how much of this is. You told me last time, time we chatted, that it's. It's safer to love an animal than it is to love a human. Like, is it about that? Is it about never deluding ourselves into thinking that anyone is safe?

C (86:21)

I mean, I think it's. I don't think it's about any of those things. I think, like. Like, I hate to be too simplistic with all of this, but, you know, like, this is. We're a planet full of animals and humans, and so it makes sense that our stories are animals and humans. I probably see animals as a greater percentage of my life than most people do. Most people probably see animals as being 0.5% of their lives and humans as being 99 point whatever. It's 50. 50. You know, my dogs are with me all the time. You know, I just. My animals are. They're a big part. And it's what I love. Like, in the same way, you know, in the same way, you know, a vigilante does. I love animals, so and so I think that it's just a matter of when I'm telling stories. It's. It's. It's going to be that some of them are animals. And I was excited to be able to get into a little bit more Eagly storytelling this season, you know, knowing that we could, you know, afford It. And have he got his own fight scene? I mean, I always wanted to tell. Have an episode that was all eagle. Like, you know, I always.

A (87:29)

The dream.

C (87:30)

I thought about doing legally episode, but it didn't. It didn't. You know, I just didn't work overall story. But here we. We do find out that Eagly is not, you know, perhaps not just an ordinary eagle. If you read what it says. And oh, man, I wish I could bring you what he's. What it says in the script. But it's, It's. It's about who Eagly is and that he is. He is not just an eagle. He is. He's the prime eagle.

A (87:56)

I mean, okay, so he is. He is actually the. The primary goal foretold in myth. This isn't just like. And that's how it seems because he does. He brings the other eagles with him. He is there as they're like clear leader and overlord. But there is a little bit too of the like red saint wild. It really seems like a I'm going to do my own research kind of guy.

C (88:18)

Yeah, he is doing my own research and he just. I think he just happened to stumble upon 1% of what he would say of the truth.

A (88:25)

Okay. I love this. Does this.

C (88:28)

I do not think that killing Eagly would purge the country of its transgressions against Native American peoples.

A (88:35)

Seems unlikely. Does this mean then if that is in fact who Eagly is, if this lore is real, that the other dimension does in fact have that Eagly as well in that standing as well, and he's just not a part of Chris's life?

C (88:53)

I don't think you can. I don't think you can say that again, but that you can say that at all.

A (88:57)

All.

C (88:58)

But I. I do think that you can kind of ask a question a second about why was Eagly tapping at the door in the first place?

A (89:05)

Right.

C (89:06)

What's if. If Eagly is, you know, the prime eagle. You know, if Eagly is an avatar of God in some way, what is he doing with. He's. He's obviously leading Peacemaker on this journey that, you know, he seems like maybe not beyond. We don't know. Like he's. He's eagle. He's the leader. Right?

A (89:30)

He's the guide.

C (89:31)

He's. He's the guide.

A (89:32)

He's the guide. Chris thought he just. It was too cold and he needed to stretch those wings. No, he needed to help you discover who you're meant to be, Chris. Animals, they're the best. Incredible stuff. I love this Every now and then I watch the show and I'm like, you know, so moved by the characters, all of them. I just. You know, I love. I love all of them, but I'm like, man, Eagly and Vigilante. We've done something important here.

C (89:56)

It's hard to. Yes, the charm of Vigilante, you know, Vigilante is so. He's so morally repugnant.

B (90:02)

I know.

C (90:03)

He is morally repugnant. I mean, he says in the second episode of the first season that he kills people for doing graffiti with his bare hands and enjoys it.

A (90:14)

Yeah. Relishes in it. I find him so entertaining. It's just incredible. Should we assume, given your personal passion for crows, that all of his other obsessions, the spiders, the owls, the manta rays, are also things that you personally care deeply about? That's reserved for the crows.

C (90:33)

No, he's got the same animal. He does not like all the same animals as I do. My animals are different. I like rhinos. I like crows. I like. Platypuses are my favorite. I like. I like cheetahs. I like. There's so many animals I like, but I don't. I'm not a big spider guy. I don't care. I don't care about bugs in general. Manta rays are pretty cool. I think that's pretty cool. But I prefer a manatee to a man, so I have.

A (91:03)

We.

C (91:04)

We do not have total crossover.

B (91:05)

We're not.

A (91:07)

Okay, that's reassuring. I have to be honest.

C (91:11)

Really?

A (91:12)

That's good. I think you and Vigilante not having total crossovers is good news. That's great. Let's talk about spiders. Maybe not totally your bag, but obviously music is. When I got to chat with the cast at the beginning of the season, I perhaps controversially asked everybody to make a nomination for the season three theme song, either on behalf of their own, you know, musical preferences and leanings or their characters. They could do either, and I would like to now share their suggestions with you.

C (91:44)

Oh, this is. This is fascinating. Okay.

A (91:48)

You can grade them. You can say whether one is eliminated or moving forward. You could sit there in silence and judge everyone. It's up to you. Okay. And I should say that almost everybody, though not everybody, but almost everybody, started with some sort of preamble about how you are the lord of the playlist. They wouldn't dare. But then everybody made a pick at the end.

C (92:07)

Okay, good. I want to hear this. I want to hear this.

A (92:10)

Okay.

C (92:10)

And then I'll rank them. I'll rank them for you.

A (92:12)

Perfect. Okay. So I'll run through them and then. And then let's hear your power ranking. Okay. Jen eventually went with 90s grunge on behalf of Harcourt because Harcourt really did not like Vibe with Peacemaker's glam metal leanings and feel. So Jen thought that this would be like, for Harcourt, classic grunge versus glam metal as a clash. Okay. So that was the nomination. Frank recommended Casey and the Sunshine Band. I'm your boogey, ma', am, with Jen leading the dance.

C (92:49)

Okay, well, already I'm going to get. I just know these people well enough that I know Frank's going to come in last place, so let's just give him last place, just off the bat. All right.

A (92:58)

Okay. It'll be a great surprise if anybody manages to beat him to the bottom. Soul wanted to go with a salsa dance with Sasha leading and Steve working as her assistant.

C (93:11)

Oh, my God.

A (93:13)

Incredible to think of that. Think about. Yeah.

B (93:16)

Yes.

A (93:18)

Steve recommended David Bowie. Let's dance. Said he wanted to stick with a glam rock sensibility.

B (93:25)

Okay.

A (93:27)

David went with Ignite by Fear is our tradition. Calls you a savant. Said he would never dream of picking a song ahead of anything that you had suggested, but then said he picked this because it's a song that his boys really love and his friend is in the band. Freddie did not hesitate. He immediately suggested Bewitched Roller Coaster on behalf of Vigilante.

C (93:50)

Okay.

A (93:51)

Inspires up.

B (93:54)

Right.

A (93:55)

He was ready. He was ready to answer. And Danielle was the only one who just would refuse. Was like, I'm letting James pick.

C (94:05)

Oh, my gosh. Danielle. Well, Danielle wins. Of course she wins for holding back. You know, that's hard to rank. I mean, I got to give free props. He made me laugh. So I think that, you know, if we did a vigilante themed song. I love the fact that Vigilante, his real music he listens to by himself, is totally different than the music he pretends to jam out to you with. Peacemaker. You know, he's like that kid in school who pretends to like cool music, but. Really?

A (94:32)

Of course. Yeah. So whatever. They're playing at Fennel Field. So he's just been, like, mainlining for years.

C (94:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it goes even deeper into girl pop and stuff, you know, I think he likes Sensational, you know?

A (94:48)

Yeah.

C (94:48)

I mean, his ringtone's Barbie Girl, so, I mean, what do you.

A (94:51)

He's. He's an icon. He just is.

C (94:55)

So I'll give. I'll give him number one.

A (94:57)

Okay.

C (94:59)

Yeah, that's not only is 90s grunge very, very hardcore, it's also very Jennifer Holland. But, you know, I think. Yeah, definitely, Definitely. Frank is in the lake.

A (95:13)

Frank. Frank.

C (95:14)

Okay. Frank's a really old man, but he's not old enough to be. I mean, he's 70s, you know, Casey and the Sunshine Band old.

A (95:23)

I mean, you know, my, my.

C (95:25)

I'm.

A (95:25)

I'm here like on a. On a Saturday, just listening to Bob Dylan. I'm 38. Who cares? Some of us are old souls.

C (95:33)

You know, Frank is. He keeps posting on Instagram about. You know, trying to prove to me is that he's a good dancer. And he. He's. He's the worst.

A (95:44)

I. I thought everybody did well. I think that's a difficult prompt and that everybody did well. He had to. He had to wear a suit. A lot of people got to wear, like Athleisure. He had to wear a suit.

C (95:53)

What? You can remember dance moves if you're wearing. He's terrible. Terrible. He's not as bad as Rooker, but he's really terrible. But bad.

A (96:03)

I mean, Rooker got to dance again, you know, Barely closed over the open flame.

C (96:08)

That dancing was pretty good.

A (96:10)

What a showing.

C (96:11)

He's a 70 year old man. That's pret crazy. He went all night.

A (96:15)

It was impressive. It was impressive. Okay, Franken, last Freddie in first. That feels appropriate. I have so many more questions. We're down to like 10, 15 minutes, so I want to. I want to ask you a couple broader DCU questions if. If you'll. If you'll indulge me. And then if we have some extra time, we can. We can maybe do some rapid fire at the end. Connective tissue. You know, you're at the dawn of a new entwined universe. What can we expect on the DCU connectivity front in the final three episodes of season two? Is there anything you could tease for us or tell us about the volume or nature of what those connections might be? How season two, obviously, Superman the film, and Peacemaker season two are already deeply entwined. Everything with the dimensional rift. Every time I saw Superman in the theater, the biggest cheer of the film was when Peacemaker showed up. So obviously the connections are already apparent. Guy Gardner, Hawkgirl, Maxwell Lord, et cetera.

C (97:22)

What about moving forward? Incredibly important to. I mean, listen, I want to make sure that people can pick up and watch something without having to see something before it.

A (97:31)

Yeah.

C (97:32)

So that said, episode eight is as important to man of Tomorrow as anything. So.

A (97:39)

Okay. Interesting. Yeah, interesting. Intriguing. So, Mana, tomorrow, you've recently Announced the date obviously, quite, quite soon. July 2027. Exciting, thrilling, curious about, like, how you navigate these tonal shifts as you're working on all of these things either. The things that you are directly showrunning, directing, et cetera, but also just more broadly, you know, overseeing the dcu. All of your stories have always featured, you know, I think, a. The blend of heart and humor that is really unmistakably yours. But going from a show like Peacemaker, which, as you've noted, is not for kids, which people should expect to be kind of depraved and which rewards that anticipation, two different sensibilities and tones. Is that challenging when it is in such a tight span of time? Is that a stimulating creative pursuit? How do you navigate that as you're actually working on all of these things in tandem?

C (98:42)

I don't really. It doesn't. I don't even think. I never even give it a thought. I, I think I, I, I. You know, when I'm writing a movie or a TV show or whatever, there's a definite lane that it's in. There's a, a part of what is natural to that story, you know, so, you know, characters in one project versus another. There's definitely a different vibe. And it isn't only like, you know, you know, language or dirtiness or anything. Like, there's a different vibe to Peacemaker. It's just much more gritty and grounded in a certain way. It's. Gravity is a much bigger part of the story. And even when actors come in from. I'm trying to remember where we are the season you're in five, so. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot more to come. Yeah, but, you know, when we see characters that are in both worlds, you know, instantly I noticed that there, there, there's a shift in the performances, like rounded thing in Peacemaker, and there's something more glorious in a Superman. But even between projects, I don't think that the, you know, the story in man of Tomorrow is. It is slightly tonally different from Superman. They aren't the same. It's, it's Superman's more comic book in some ways in man of Tomorrow. And it has to do with the, you know, the dual characters of Lex and Superman at the center of man of Tomorrow and other things. But, you know, I think even in the Guardians movies, if you look at them, they are, they are slightly different from movie to movie. And, and I think that's part of the, the fun of everything for me. You know, I always love when I, you know, like I was so excited when Aliens and Predator got to team up, you know, because they were totally different types of movies. Alien, a big goofy comic book movie. And you know, aliens are kind of these gritty, scary things. And even those movies are very different. So I always love that. I love the mashup of different genres and seeing these, these characters go from one genre to the other. I'm watching the dailies of Clayface all the time. I'm like, this is totally different, you know, watching, watching episodes of Lanterns, which is also very grounded, but not grounded in same sort of comedic fucked up way as Peacemaker, but grounded in a much more sort of serious way, I guess you could say, you know, and each of these things are different. And what is so fun for me is for them to be in, in the same world and to really give the different creators a lot of leeway in what they, they can do.

B (101:25)

Right?

C (101:25)

When I say that I also include myself when I'm working on different projects.

A (101:28)

Projects, right? How, how crucial does that, that variance feel to just like successful longevity, you know, where the genre specificity of each particular story, the sensibility, the ethos, the tone, the vibe, the essence, the way that a character can, as you noted, like, be slightly distinct inside of one particular rapper than, than in another. But also like these things all have to fit, fit together, right? It has to track, it has to make sense, it has to hold. You know, I, I, I, I have always like, thought that these universes that manage to span not only character sets, but large swaths of time for us in real life as consumers, that that is like a really elemental foundational strand of the DNA is that variance. And I'm curious, like, yeah, how, how crucial that feels, feels to you.

C (102:20)

I think that you, when you see some of the things that have really lasted for a long time, you know, for, for me, the DCU is, is less about, oh, let's tell this big overriding story that everything is going to lead to this moment. And there's things that are like that, you know, there's things that we see when we talk about some of the stuff with Eagle earlier. I mean, you know, there's things that are part of a bigger story that I'm telling and we're all telling in different ways, we're all adding to it, but it's much more about creating a universe that people can enter into and exist within in any point of time. And if you think of the DC planet Earth, which of course it's extensive, you know, extended arm, other galaxies and universes and that you can enter into any place on that at any time, at any point of time. And that's what's fun to me, is go into this other universe that exists. And so for me, that is. That is what's. That's. That's what Star wars is, and that's what Game of Thrones Thrones is. You know, those are the two that, to me, you know, Game of Thrones obviously doesn't have the longevity of Star wars, but Star wars has the longevity and people still get excited about it.

A (103:33)

Oh, yeah, no question.

C (103:35)

No question. That's the one that, to me, is, you know, exciting.

A (103:40)

Interesting. Okay. I love this. Grogu. Eagly team up when. Let's talk about a crossover event.

C (103:48)

What universe? We don't know that. We don't know.

A (103:51)

My God. Boy. Now that's all I'm gonna be able to think about. Boy, it's you.

B (103:56)

You.

A (103:56)

So you said, like Eagly part of this larger plan. Will Eagly and Crypto share. Share a seed together in Supergirl, you know?

C (104:05)

No, they will not.

A (104:07)

Okay. Maybe one day. I'm not gonna give up hope. I'm not gonna give up hope.

C (104:11)

We're not even on Earth and Supergirl, it's. We're off. You know, I mean, it's not. There's nothing. It's not like there's nothing on it, but, like, for the. It's a story now. It's a space. It's a space epic.

A (104:21)

Well, I believe that Eagly is equipped to go to space.

C (104:25)

I'd like to see him in a little helmet.

A (104:27)

Yeah.

C (104:28)

Astronauts.

A (104:29)

Exactly. Yeah. That would be wonderful.

C (104:31)

He would be so furious. He'd be furious.

A (104:33)

That's true. I want him to be happy more than all. I prefer he be happy than I be happy. So I'll. I'll accept that answer.

C (104:38)

I don't think he's ever really that happy. I mean, he's not. I mean, he's. You know, maybe when he's getting bet by peace, but you don't. You know, he's pretty cranky.

A (104:46)

He is. It's part of his charm. You know, he knows his own mind. No one else is going to trick him into being happy. He's got to find his own happiness. Which upcoming DCU property would Vigilante most enjoy? Is it clay face?

C (105:04)

Oh, boy. Well, I don't. Oh, you mean watching?

A (105:09)

Yeah.

C (105:10)

Oh, I think he'd get too scared. I. I imagine that he's a. A baby about interesting.

A (105:16)

He can inflict horrors directly, but he.

C (105:18)

Can'T I think he is probably.

A (105:20)

He can't passively receive them.

C (105:22)

I think he is probably unable to watch horror movies because they are too scary.

A (105:27)

I love this. Just one more thing that I love about my guy, Adrian. This is the best.

B (105:32)

Best.

A (105:32)

He's the best. Oh, man, I could see him really, really rocking out to Supergirl, though.

C (105:39)

Yeah, I think he would. Oh, he would love Supergirl. He would love Supergirl.

B (105:43)

Yeah.

A (105:44)

Yeah. Great.

B (105:45)

Yeah.

A (105:46)

You mentioned earlier that Lex is one of the characters, along with Harcourt, along with. With Rocket, who you see yourself in the boast. Maybe you put the most of yourself in. No, I think that's. It's fascinating. People are complex. But I am curious, you know, from on the man of Tomorrow front, I mean, the first thing you posted about it was there's Lex right there. Right. And to the extent that this is something you can like engage with at all, what. Given your real personal connection to that character and your interpretation of and rendering of that character, what are you most interested in exploring on the Lex front in man of Torture Tomorrow and in the future more broadly?

C (106:30)

Yeah, I think I'm just more interested in getting into the heart of Lex and seeing how he fits into all of this. I. I think that getting to know Lex more as a human being, I think we saw, you know, a lot about the evil part of Lex. I don't think, you know, sorry, he's pretty evil. He's pretty guy. But I think that I just want to. To get to know. I think he as a character is really interesting. I think that his. There's something, despite everything, that is incredibly heroic about Lex. Take aside, like morality, which is hard to do, but here is this guy who's saying, you can hold up a building, you can shoot down, you know, planes with your eyes. Fuck you. I kick your ass because I'm better than you.

B (107:26)

Right.

C (107:27)

And that is. You can't. I, I can't help but admire his tenacity and his sort of ego and his all. I mean, his ambition is beyond compare.

A (107:38)

Yeah, he puts in the work.

C (107:40)

So is his jealousy. I mean, his jealousy is crazy. I mean, he does this thing that so many of us do, comparing ourselves to other people and judging our own successes by the metrics of others. And that's a. That's an. It's something, to me, that's fascinating about Lex, something that I've done a lot in my life and there's not a great thing about me, nor about Lex, but it makes him full. And. And to me, he's so much more Full than most of these villains that we've seen in these movies because he's got his reasons for everything. And, you know, he's the underdog. You know, at the end of the day, the is the underdog. I mean, yeah, sure, he's got a lot of corporate power and these other things that he can use to manipulate things, but he can't fly in outer space. He can't lift up a building. He can't punch, you know, something across the, you know, three states. He's a guy. And. And I fucking. I love that.

A (108:41)

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I'm really excited to see. To see what you do with Lex in the future. We're down to our final minute here. Here. Gonna try to. I'm gonna attempt to ask this in a way you. There is like even a 1% chance you might engage with.

C (108:56)

Okay, go for it.

A (108:58)

We'll see. Batman, Batman. Casting news.

C (109:05)

There's just. There's no news, unfortunately.

A (109:07)

Like, so here. Here's isn't done.

C (109:09)

I mean, I've got. Got somebody writing a script. I think it's really good, you know, but it isn't finished yet.

A (109:17)

So. Yeah, here's my question.

C (109:21)

Yeah.

A (109:23)

Your podcast that goes up after every episode. I would say that there are corners of the Internet who are paying close attention to any comment you make that might be perceived as a clue on the scouting and casting front. Is that something that people should be doing at this moment in time? If you say you're watching something, I.

C (109:49)

Mean, do I have ideas about actors to play Batman? Absolutely, I do. I have guys I like. I have guys that are at the top of the list for me, just like I had people that were at the top of the list for Superman. But let me tell you something. Those aren't the people that. They aren't David Corenswet.

A (110:03)

Right.

C (110:03)

So they didn't get the job. So people can guess and maybe they'll be right about certain things. I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about specifically. Specifically. But. But that doesn't mean that's going to be, you know, I mean.

A (110:17)

Right.

B (110:18)

Okay.

C (110:19)

Totally up in the air.

A (110:20)

I mean, I'm early days. Yes.

C (110:22)

You know, we'd have to screen test. We'd have to do the whole thing. It's unlikely that I'm going to hire someone that's like, oh, it's, you know, whatever. It's. Sylvester Stallone is Batman. We're just hiring him. He's not gonna, you know, audition, you know, I'm saying I'm making up a huge star doesn't audition. It's unlikely that Batman's going to be one of those guys. But it's possible. It is possible. I know, like, one actor in particular who is, you know, pretty big star that wants to be Batman. We've talked about it, but I don't. I don't think. But I'm not sure that's the case.

A (110:53)

Right. Okay. Okay. Intriguing. Pay attention. Watch this space. Watch this space.

C (111:01)

Such a terrible answer, but it's an honest answer. That's. That's the truth. It's like. It's.

A (111:05)

Of course.

C (111:06)

Answer.

A (111:07)

Yeah, Yeah. A lot of people are like, james Gunn is watching 1923. Like, what does it mean?

C (111:14)

Okay, I see what you're talking.

A (111:15)

Yeah.

C (111:16)

But listen, I think it's a really good TV show. Like, it was like, I can't believe how good that show was.

A (111:23)

I consume every single second of the Sheridan verse.

B (111:25)

So, yeah, I watch a lot of it.

C (111:29)

But don't you find that 1923 is kind of at the peak of all that?

A (111:32)

Yeah, I think 1883 and 1923 are my favorites. I think that the prequel spinoffs are sensational, emotional. They're great.

C (111:39)

I think it's 1923 first.

A (111:42)

Yeah.

C (111:42)

Then Landman.

A (111:44)

Landman is, to me, like a different. Almost a different stratosphere of, like, the human experience. I just can't believe Landman is real. I. When the trailer dropped for Landman last week, I have never activated so many group chats that quickly. It was like a global event here in my life.

C (112:02)

You're into everything that's like a world.

A (112:06)

Yeah. If it feels like a universe, if the characters are fully realized. Like, I cannot believe that the characters in Landman say and do the things they do, but I believe that those characters say and do the things that they do. It's just unbelievable to me.

C (112:19)

But what is. Does the Sheridan get as much for putting in, like, actors in different parts of the world? Even though he's reusing actors, does he get trouble for that? Like, I do?

A (112:32)

No. I mean, I tr. I would say he is observed with interest, but more as like a. I. I think people, like, consider it kind of a. Almost like a bizarre creative affectation or something. Like.

C (112:52)

But, like, I watched that. I watched that. He does that. I'm like, well, that's cool. I love seeing the same actor show up and, you know. Yeah, I guess It's. It's in 1920. Which one is she?

A (113:04)

Yeah, the. The dot. Yes. In 1923. And then she's the daughter and Landman.

C (113:08)

And then, like, who's in, you know, both Landman in the. The, you know, Jeremy Renner show and whatever.

A (113:13)

Yes. Yeah.

C (113:14)

I like that those, Those actors show up, and to me, that's cool.

A (113:18)

Yeah.

C (113:18)

But somehow in the dcu, people take it when the same actors would show up as if that means it's not real. And I'm like. Like, it does mean that it's. It touches. It isn't real.

B (113:31)

None.

C (113:32)

None of it's real, but somehow it seems to ruin the illusion for people. So I'll only do it with Michael Rooker.

A (113:40)

I think you're. You're. You're free to continue to put Michael Rooker in everything you make for the rest of the time. I think it's. It's always a delight. It's always a delight to see him, you know, I think it's also probably helpful that he's often wearing either a fin or a hat, you know, some sort of active costume. No, people do certainly talk about that with the sheriff in casting, but it's. Yeah, I. I think that it's. Something about it does feel distinct. But my. I think my favorite example of it is you. I assume you watch Yellowstone proper as well.

C (114:09)

I've only watched one episode. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not.

A (114:12)

Oh, my God.

B (114:13)

You.

C (114:13)

I'm not a heavy, lucky.

A (114:15)

Oh, my God. I. Well, okay. I was going to say I won't spoil then one of the crossover performances that is just like, I don't care. From 1883 to Yellowstone. There's a character in 1883 who appears in Yellowstone as just this, like, there's kind of a meek presence in 1883, and then it becomes a kind of like fixer assassin.

C (114:37)

Right.

A (114:38)

Shocking stuff.

C (114:40)

I love that. I love. I love stuff like that. I love stuff like. Well, that's what was funny. I mean, what was fun. One of the most fun things of doing this season of Peacemaker was Joel Kinnaman, you know, coming in from being a stud and everything. Like, literally, he has never not played a student.

A (114:55)

Like, he's always cool.

C (114:56)

Yeah, it's like this mealy mouth, you know, you know, guy who's just. It's just. He was so good. He was so funny.

A (115:09)

I love the trash can moment. That was really.

B (115:11)

Oh, that's delightful.

C (115:14)

Yeah. Because, I mean, the trash can part was in the script and I wasn't there on that day, so I didn't see Greg shoot that. And the trash. Trash can part was in the script. But wasn't. What wasn't in the script was that he goes, big deal. Big. And it still makes me laugh every time.

A (115:33)

You know, it's the best. That was really, really fun to see him pop up. I. Yeah, I, I'm. And also just obviously in general with like, multiversal storytelling. That is such a cool thing to be able to do is to like, bring. To resurface a character in a new way. Can I very quickly take you to theory corner? This will take 10 seconds. Is the alien who comes out of the door to incinerate the vermin, the rude fella who won't strike up a neighborly conversation with Chris? Is that another Chris Smith?

C (116:11)

No. Let me tell you, the alien people have asked me a lot of things about the alien. Means nothing. He is simply the. The irritating neighbor that like, he's like the. I think of him as the irritating neighbor from Home Improvement. You know what I mean? He's the guy next door that he, you know, from any old sitcom that has, you know, the. The irritating neighbor character. You know, So I don't think he's. He's like. He's like what Mel Tuck was in season one, you know?

A (116:45)

Right.

C (116:45)

The OPP version of that on the other side of the. The dimension.

A (116:49)

It was great. I liked the idea that perhaps that alien. Maybe the impu. Jizzed and the Cheerios. That these were all little Chris Smiths from One of the 99 tourists running around wreaking havoc in some form and being happy.

C (117:02)

You'll be happy. But. Yeah, that's. I think that the alien is. But I did. I do like. I don't know what I. I do kind of have in my head what he does.

B (117:10)

Does.

C (117:11)

I think he's probably a janitor of some type.

A (117:14)

Okay.

C (117:15)

He's working in a building and those things aren't safe to be burning in their own world. So they take them into the other dimension. He's just constantly capturing and murdering the vermin from the other planet and putting them into the. The thing there.

A (117:32)

Horrible.

C (117:33)

It's horrible. It's not very. It is environmentally. And who knows what kind of fumes poor peacemaker's breathing in when he goes.

A (117:42)

I know. Yeah. What's like the ventilation in the quantum unfolding chamber? It makes you think. It makes you think. Okay. So something like judomaster's obsession with Flamin Hot Cheetos. Who among us really bears fruit when he leaves the cheetah dust handprint on the note. Great, great stuff. Multi season payoff on that front. The Alien who won't talk to Chris. Just a dude who's trying to do his job.

C (118:08)

Just trying to do his job. Doesn't have any interest in Chris or what he has to say. And he's just bothersome to him because he just needs to. He wants to get home after. You know, he's probably got a quota of. Of things, a vermin he has to destroy. So, yeah, that's. That's all. That's all that is. But, you know, I say that, but I don't want people to think this show is canon, because I may decide something different.

A (118:34)

Okay, so the house. House of our podcast, not canon. You reserve the right to. Maybe it is, though, in one behind one of the 99 doors. That's the thing.

C (118:43)

Maybe. And I. And, you know, but I like when I had judomaster eating, you know, Flamin Hot Cheetos in episode three of season one. I didn't know that was going to lead to him, you know, leaving his tracks into the other dimensions. Mention.

A (118:56)

I. I love a spicy snack. I love a Flamin Hot Cheeto. I. I would love to know, like, what that guy's toilet paper budget is exclusively eat in Flamin Hot Cheetos is. It's a choice. Will we see other signature stacks for other characters? Like, do you. Is that part of your. Your headcanon? Like, this is loves.

C (119:16)

You know, I don't know if you want to pronounce them Chacos or Chocos.

A (119:19)

That's right.

C (119:20)

I say Chocos. I understand that I'm saying it wrong. I don't know. But, yeah, we know about that. And I'm sure that other characters will have some snacks that they enjoy. Obviously, Harkorn enjoys a good Bud Light.

A (119:36)

A coffee and a Bud Light Balance balanced diet black coffee and a Bud Light Fantastic. All right, well, that's a perfect endnote, I think. James, thank you so much for joining us and for all of the time. Thanks for chatting about Peacemaker. Thanks for chatting about the dcu. Thanks for chatting about everybody's favorite beverages and snacks. I look forward to seeing the rest of the season. I look forward to seeing what routine household objects Peacemaker kills somebody with next.

B (120:00)

Cool.

C (120:01)

Thank you so much.

A (120:02)

Thank you. All right, Ben, we did it. We handed out awards. We chatted with James Gunn. You found a way to mention delts. Not a muscle that I'm familiar with or could point to. Is that this one?

B (120:16)

Yeah, that's around there.

A (120:17)

Well, okay.

B (120:17)

No, little farther over. Yeah.

A (120:19)

All right, I will take your word for it. Thank you. For joining me for this. You know, usually the last couple years in mid mid September, I've become very accustomed to being able to chat with you regularly about the playoff prospects for my beloved Baltimore Orioles. We had to find something else to talk about this year.

B (120:35)

Yeah, in one of the other alternate universes behind some door, I'm sure the Orioles have made the playoffs. But thank you for, for prodding me belatedly to watch Peaceful Maker. I'm glad I did.

A (120:45)

I'm glad you did as well. I'm glad that you're enjoying it. Thank you to you for joining me today. Thank you to James Gunn for making the time to chat with us and thank you to the 9,000 people who helped produce this podcast over multiple days of recording and production. Carlos Cheraboga, John Richter, Kevin Kurgan, Cameron Dinwiddie Bell, Roman Arjuna, Ramga Powell and of course on the social Jomi A. Dener on until next time.