A (1:49)

It's time.

B (1:50)

Grab your phone, snap a few pics and sell it on Depop. Listed in minutes with no selling fees. And just like that, a guy 500 miles away just paid full price for your closure. And right on cue. Hey, still got my hoodie? Nope. But I've got tonight's dinner paid for. Start selling on depop where taste recognizes taste list now with no selling fees, payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.

A (2:26)

All right, Jo. Yes, the Andy Weir chat will be at the end of the episode today, so everybody please stay tuned for that. We genuinely had a great time chatting with him about not just this adaptation and his work, but honestly, kind of just like space nerd stuff. We talked a little Star Wars.

B (2:41)

We talked a little Doctor who nerd stuff. Go.

A (2:43)

Nerd stuff.

B (2:44)

Go.

A (2:44)

I mean, always here. Witch stuff. Go. Nerd stuff. Go. Witches, be gone. No, stay.

B (2:49)

Yeah, be.

C (2:50)

Stay.

A (2:50)

Yeah, be. Stay. Be staying. Day Witches programming reminders. Before we get into the deep dive.

B (2:57)

Great question. We've got a bunch of people have been asking us to break down the Dune and Spidey trailers, which we will be doing. That's right. Did they drop a little earlier than we expected? Yes, they did. But we will be getting to that. We will also be checking in on Daredevil.

A (3:09)

That's right.

B (3:10)

That's launching next week. So we will. We've got all that on the horizon. We've got more Chris Nolan movies to get to before the Odyssey is here.

C (3:18)

Here.

B (3:19)

Months away.

A (3:19)

I know. Wild stuff.

B (3:20)

Very exciting. And then, despite the fact that the reboot is canceled, we will be continuing a pace with our Buffy rewatch. Mallory has watched most of, not all of, but most of season four.

A (3:31)

Yeah, I only have a couple episodes left.

B (3:32)

So the word Steve door does mean something to you now. So that's exciting.

A (3:36)

Sure. Boy, does it. You receive some texts from me about that. If you're wondering how can I follow along. Guess what? Normally we say the same shit about that. We've got an update. You could, of course, follow the pod, Right. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys.

B (3:57)

Pew.

A (3:57)

Pew. On Ringerverse. Great stuff. And on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. But guess what? We have new social handles so you can follow House of our pod. That is House of our Pod on Instagram and TikTok.

B (4:11)

It's very exciting. Mallory has a big project coming up that we're hoping to document on social media. I don't want to say anything specifically about it, but it's very exciting and we would love for you to be with us every step of the way. So House of Our Pod.

A (4:28)

Yeah, we've got some ideas cooking for what we're going to get up to on the old Instagram and TikTok. It's going to be fun. Also, the inbox is always open. Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com Send us your thoughts on Buffy Season 4, on the beginning of Daredevil, on the recent Spidey and Dune trailers. Anything else that's coming up? Mall Shadowlord. Uh, what else is coming up soon? Anything else that's airing this spring? Or if you want to start emailing us about things this summer. Great. Do it. We'd love to hear from you. Send us all of your thoughts on Rocky. Even though we're talking about the movie today, we want all of your Rocky emails. Spoiler warning. I mean, it's an obvious one today. If it's in the film Project Hail Mary, which just came out, we can talk about it today. And also if it's hair mailing, Project Hair Mary, which is the wig Watch TM with Joanna Robinson. Tm.

B (5:14)

Yeah. That Jesse Buckley wore as Mary Shelley in the Bride. Bride.

A (5:17)

Yeah. You're used to getting. You are used to getting the making of Futureettes.

B (5:23)

Yeah.

A (5:24)

And this is one that will recalibrate your expectations for what to expect.

B (5:29)

Everybody loves the bride, so what they want is more info about the bride.

A (5:33)

If it happened in either Project Hair Mary or Project Hail Mary, we're going to talk about it today.

B (5:39)

It's on the table.

A (5:40)

If it came up in the book, it could come up much like it came up in the film.

B (5:43)

Strange, esoteric gold thing that's on the table.

A (5:47)

Like, it's a. It's a dish. It looks like it could be half of a.

B (5:50)

An egg. If you're not watching a video podcast, we're talking about a thing that's on the table in front of us. Arjuna has suggested. Yeah, half. Like a dino egg.

A (5:56)

Yeah, it's. Well, now that we've said dinosaur. I don't. I don't want to say this, but it almost makes me hungry. It looks like it could have contained candy.

B (6:04)

Oh, you want to eat. You know, dinosaur.

A (6:05)

I don't.

B (6:06)

Eggs.

A (6:07)

I don't. That's why I specifically said, life finds a way.

B (6:10)

And by life finds a way, you mean your life. You will get your protein count.

A (6:13)

Even if it means stopping protein. I don't know, it just makes me think of, like, cracking it open and, you know, like Easter candy or some sort of, like, could it be filled with Cadbury cream eggs or something?

B (6:23)

Not actual eggs. Candy eggs. That sounds right. That sounds correct. Yeah.

A (6:28)

Eggs with a lot of sugar, maybe some caramel.

B (6:30)

That sounds Rubenes to me. Absolutely.

A (6:32)

Wonderful. Okay, any other programming, reminders, notes about things that may or may not be coming? We're only going to have one pod next week. We didn't say that. But one pod next week. Because I will be on a family visit and then we will be back after that. Yeah. And that's all there is to say about that. And now let's talk about Project Hair Mary. All right, Opening snapshot. Okay. Normally we Talk about movies on Mondays so we have a little more context for like what was the box office, et cetera. It's a Friday. We don't really know. We have some projections though. Looks like this movie is going to do pretty well.

B (7:10)

It does. I'm really excited about that. We'll see exactly how well it does. But like, like if the runtime proves at all like an obstacle to people. Because it's a chunky runtime, it's a long one.

A (7:21)

But I love.

B (7:22)

Really well reviewed.

A (7:23)

No, no, no.

B (7:24)

I love the movie. I think everyone should go see it, obviously. Quite obviously. But get out there. Really well reviewed. Really great audience reaction so far. Yes. Here's my prediction. I think the runtime will be a slight obstacle this weekend, but the word of mouth will be so good that this will have really long, Rocky esque legs. That's what I think.

A (7:43)

Five of them.

B (7:44)

Yeah. Five weekends of good box office returns for Project Hail Mary. I ran into Van at the coffee shop near the office this morning and he was trying to feed me some nonsense about how people like didn't like it, but did like it.

A (7:56)

What?

B (7:57)

By the way, this is Friday morning. So like based on, I guess people seeing it last night.

A (8:01)

Okay.

B (8:01)

He was talking about the people in general. Okay.

A (8:04)

Yeah.

B (8:04)

This is actually largely based off of the review of a relative that works for this company. And he was like, but everyone feels that way. And then I went on the Internet to try to find corroboration for what he said and I found nothing. So Van is spreading misinformation. I think so far I've seen nothing but positive. I'm sure there are people who won't like it, but like I've seen nothing but positive feedback from people who saw it last night, people who loved the book, people who had never read the book. Yes, it does ask for like a big emotional buy in. You know, it's like a very Hope Core kind of movie. But what else do we need right now if not.

A (8:38)

That's true.

B (8:39)

I quite agree.

A (8:39)

Yeah. I mean it's early, early days, but both out there on Yield interwebs and also just anecdotally from folks who've seen it who have chatted with Safari. I agree it's a really positive reception and I think that the. I loved this book. I had super high hopes and expectations and it's met them as a methodically and carefully calibrated but very faithful adaptation. And also for people who have no relationship to the books, you know, it's just a charm and charisma bomb. It is just oozing heart hope. Core is a great way to put it. I love that. And it's visually astonishing. I found the runtime on second viewing even less noticeable. Like, I just. When it ended, I was like, damn, I can sit here for another couple hours. I mean, I would love to keep hanging out with my guy, Rocky.

B (9:24)

Yeah.

A (9:26)

We're gonna go through our longer conversation about the film in a few minutes, but as we like to do here, set the table. Give us a little amuse.

B (9:33)

Bouche.

A (9:34)

How did you enjoy this film each of the times that you've seen it so far?

B (9:40)

Thanks. I love it. First, I saw it with you and Sean, and that was really delightful to get the slightly more cynical film snob reaction. He loved it. He did, yeah. And the Malor Rubin. My heart is always open and full of hope reaction. She loved it. I loved it. As someone who sits sort of somewhere between those usually. And then I saw it again with my nephew and my sister. My nephew project. Hail Mary is his favorite book. And so he's like a 15 year old. And after it, I was like, did they do it? He's like, they did it. So it was really, really great. The first time we saw it, it was like a pretty sparsely attended screening. The second screening I saw was packed, and so it was really nice to see it with a fuller audience.

A (10:24)

A lot of laughter.

B (10:25)

A lot of laughter. Specifically on the Close Encounters joke, which was really fun, really great. But I wanted to start with like a. Just like a big picture. What I've been thinking about as we unofficially close out Space Movie Month, you know, we've been talking about all these space movies, rewatching them, talking to our pals Amanda and Van and Chris and Rob, the whole gang about space movies. And. And something that keeps coming up is like, why do we go to space? The mission's very clear in this movie, right? We have to save Earth.

A (10:54)

So.

B (10:54)

So we go to space. But, like, what opportunities are there in the vast oceans of space? And, like, this idea of, like, that we always like to talk about, which is confronting yourself. What can you find in space? Can you find yourself? I think you brought this up a bit on the space movie draft or perhaps in the Martian. But like, there are moments in this movie. Like there's a moment where Rylan sort of passes out, half hallucinates himself on the beach, and someone's walking towards him, and it's him, you know, so that sort of like. That very sort of visual representation of, like, confronting yourself on this journey who you are. We'll get to more details of that. And there's also this quote from the book that I love. I only have a couple quotes today. I know you have a couple quotes today from the book, but there's quote that I love from a character who did not make the movie adaptation. Good old Steve Hatch.

A (11:41)

Right.

B (11:42)

But he says, do you believe in God? I know it's a personal question. I do. I do. And I think he was pretty awesome to make relativity a thing, don't you? The faster you go, the less time you experience. It's like capital H. He's inviting us to explore the universe, you know, And I just love that this idea that, like, there's something spirit. It's so scientific.

A (12:06)

Yes.

B (12:07)

So scientific. And we love that. We love the science of Andy Weir's stuff. And, like, however much of it might go over my head, I love that it's here. I love that this movie does a great job of nailing the emotions. So you always understand what's happening scientifically, even if you don't understand the jargon. But it's also spiritual. Absolutely. You know, no question. Even though I don't say God with a capital H, he, like, there's a spiritual wonder associated with the space journey and very much present in this story. And I just love that about the book and the movie.

A (12:36)

Beautiful. I thought this was absolutely wonderful. And I love the book so much. I was so excited immediately upon finishing reading it for the first time to, like, start thinking about. And this is another thing we've been tracking across space. Movie Month is like, the aspects of space that are inherently cinematic and, like, as almost a matter of course, are going to stimulate and translate to seeing them on the big screen or hearing, like, the surround sound in the theater, sharing it with other people, you know, the idea of the crew. But, like, the story inside of this vast, expansive film is so intimate. And to be able to pair something that is so deeply rooted in one man's sense of self and journey of growth and discovery and that it is a real yo yo even inside of this movie. Right. It's not linear at all in a wonderful way unlocked by the flashback structure. And then you have this beautiful friendship, a little found family that's just so extremely our shit. Right? And then you put that in outer fucking space, you know, it's like. It's just perfect. And Andy Weir's, which we're gonna talk about the kind of, like, blend of tone in this film and why Drew Goddard and Lord and Miller are such perfect Adapters for this book in particular. And it's such a good pairing for Andy Weir's kind of, like, sensibility in general. I had such an immediate attachment to Rocky. Reading the story for the first time, like, really, really, really fell deeply in love with Rocky. And some of it is the surprise of confronting Rocky for the first time and the humor and the charm and the particular nature of how his, like, speech pattern unfolds and how these people learn to communicate with each other and finding common cause and the empowering aspects of, like, what you can find inside of a relationship that seems like it should be like, I just love all of that. But he's such an indelible creation. He really is. Like, even in the long, long, long, long, long running history of sci fi storytelling on the printed page or on the screen, I just think Rocky is, like, really memorable, truly. And the relationship that Rocky and Grace form is really memorable, truly. And so on the one hand, you finish reading the book for the first time, and I'm like, can't wait to see this rendered at scale. And then there's like, a little bit of panic. Will they be able to capture that? Like, a lot of it, but that specifically. And I just was so. I mean, you have kind of the, like the initial almost wave of relief and then just kind of bliss, like sheer bliss to luxuriate in it. So I had a really wonderful time seeing it for the first time, but then I went again. That was weeks ago that we got to see it together with Sean.

B (15:23)

Then you got to see it with, like, the Gen Pop, like a full theater.

A (15:25)

We went last night, just like, on release night. Gonna circle back in a second to a merch story. Don't let me forget to tell you this. You're gonna love it. This is a classic Mallory Rubin writing it down.

B (15:38)

Merch story.

A (15:40)

And just like, I went to see it with my husband, who also loves the book and also loves Rocky and knows how much I love Rocky. And we were there.

B (15:47)

Are you gonna start saying merch like Matthew McConaughey says? Murph and interstellar Merch. Merch.

A (15:56)

Don't go.

B (15:56)

Merch. Merch.

A (15:57)

I mean, it's entirely possible. I do wear enough Carhartt, I think, to pull off the Cooper in general.

B (16:02)

You and Adam, who also loves the book. We're at the end.

A (16:04)

It was fun to be there because you see, like, people who have brought their kids, right? And they're excited and they're. They're laughing and they're laughing and they're chuckling and Then you've got people who are laughing at, like, callbacks that you'd only understand or cultural references or like, you know, enjoying and appreciating something that's clearly a nod to like a 70s sci fi piece of cinematic history. It's just like, it feels like a movie that a lot of people are gonna like to not only consume and watch, but share together, which is very connected to the story itself, obviously. So I love that.

B (16:34)

I love that. I know that Amanda apologized for using this term, but like, I. Four quadrant, no question.

A (16:40)

It's a four quadrant movie, no question. So I hope it makes a bazillion dollars and gets nominated for a lot of Oscars. Do you think that Rocky will win an Oscar if they have.

B (16:49)

Oh, for Best supporting Actor? Yeah, I think they should have a puppetry Oscar. And I think, you know that I am being very serious when I say that.

A (16:57)

It's just been a really big moment for puppets and thus for you.

B (17:00)

I have a lot of puppetry notes to get to inside of this episode

A (17:05)

of the podcast Merch Corner.

B (17:07)

Yeah. Do you want to start with your merch story?

A (17:10)

Anything you'd like to share? Merch. Merch. Anything you'd like to share about merch in your universe?

B (17:14)

Couple things.

A (17:14)

Yeah, tell me.

B (17:15)

First of all, as you already know, but thank you for setting me up. It did take my sister and my 15 year old nephew. They, like, I heard him chuckle a few times every time, like, Ryland showed up with a new science pun shirt.

A (17:29)

Yeah.

B (17:31)

And then I was talking to my sister earlier this week and she was like, oh, yeah, my younger nephew, not the one who was at the movie. She's like, he loves the periodic table. And she's like, so that's why, you know, we decided to get him that, that periodic table shirt that Rylan Grace wears. And I was like, oh, what about the, ah, the element of the surprise? She was like, oh, the older one wanted that one. And I was like, okay, so I sent you a photo of both my nephews wearing their Rylan Grace shirts, which ties into an email we got. We don't have many project emails, but our listener Rachel saw it last night and had an email for us already where she says a Mal has a lot of fun themed graphic tees. Who do we think is a larger collection? Mal or Rylan Grace?

A (18:12)

I think probably me, just because I imagine it's a larger set of.

B (18:17)

Oh, not just science puns.

A (18:19)

Yeah, exactly. You know, I've got some. Got my Game of Thrones collection, my Star wars etc. But I think inside of one area of passion, Rylan could probably.

B (18:31)

I have potential. Is also a really good one.

A (18:33)

That's a great one. Okay. Also, I mean, he might beat me in like, you know, how many amusing bullet points could you put on a whiteboard? So that's something always muscles. Question mark.

B (18:42)

We're in merch territory.

A (18:43)

We're merged.

B (18:44)

Okay, next question from Rachel. Which tea would Mallory most want for herself and will she be purchasing said merch tea, if available? And then I'm going to say this. I'm going to get to the third bullet point. I'm a circle back to you. At this point, I was a little insulted. I was like, why is this email for? I mean, I know I don't wear graphic T shirts, but I could.

A (19:00)

You could. I wanted to. Is this the year you start? No, I've actually sort of moved away from it a little bit.

B (19:05)

Maybe.

A (19:05)

Maybe it's your. It's your moment.

B (19:06)

I wear them like, you know, working out. I don't wear them on the podcast, but I do, like wear them in the world. Um, but the third bullet point from Rachel was. I don't feel the need to ask Joe what her favorite tea was.

A (19:17)

Yeah.

B (19:18)

Because I have to assume it was the Cat on the Golden Gate Bridge. One as both a cat lover and a berry native. But please confirm Joe.

A (19:23)

Right.

B (19:23)

Rachel. As I was reading her email and I was like, she only asked Mallory. My answer would be the Cat in the Golden Gate Bridge. And then she had that in there. So how does it feel to be

A (19:30)

seen and noticed, to be loved?

B (19:32)

So I just felt really special.

A (19:33)

Seen, known, understood.

B (19:35)

A follow up comment, I think for my sister was like, Ryland didn't get to pack his trunk for the ship.

A (19:42)

Yeah.

B (19:43)

So someone else put all of those shirts in there for him.

A (19:46)

Right.

B (19:46)

Do you think it was Carl? Like, who packed Carl?

A (19:49)

Yeah.

B (19:49)

And do you think Carl was like, oh, yeah, you're getting the Golden Gate Bridge cat shirt?

A (19:53)

Probably.

B (19:53)

There's no laundry in space. I have questions about how all of those shirts.

A (19:56)

I mean, there's the great moment, you know, down on on earth still when he's meeting the crew and kind of like in an embarrassed fashion, like closes his outer rainbow.

B (20:06)

One of his many Shaw collar sweaters that he wears.

A (20:10)

He's got some great.

B (20:11)

I have some questions about the science teacher aesthetic here. I love this movie.

A (20:15)

What do you think of the. Just the kind of like yellow slicker raincoat. That's a great one.

B (20:20)

That seems like standard issue. Like you're on this ship, you get a Gordon's fisherman slicker.

A (20:25)

The beanie. Great stuff.

B (20:27)

The frosted tips.

A (20:29)

Yeah.

B (20:29)

Seemed very. Not science teacher to me.

A (20:32)

And I think.

B (20:33)

I think the reason the frosted. The very bright Ken, like, frosted tips on Ryan Gosling in the flashbacks are meant to say, like, this is what it was like when he had sunshine on his hair, and now he's in space and it's darker. I think that's what it was for. But it looked very, like, looked very Ken to me.

A (20:48)

Yeah.

B (20:49)

The shawl, collar, sweaters. But the. The biggest offense is the glasses acting. His glasses acting is insane down here. If you wore a pair of glasses, you would never smudge them up the way that he does. And apparently it was Gosling's idea to add glasses to make him look smarter, I believe is what I've read in interviews. But I was just like, okay, but you're wearing them in an insane fashion.

A (21:10)

I did like that. He was, like, using them basically as a chin strap on a football helmet. Good gag. When he puts the. The EVA suit helmet on for the first time and they're kind of, like, lopsided. Wonderful stuff. But even I. And I would. I was about to describe myself as a non glasses wearer. I think to be more accurate, an

B (21:28)

obstacle needs glasses but has not yet

A (21:31)

gone to secure them.

B (21:34)

Yeah.

A (21:35)

I had to assume that the constant tossing and handling was. Was not advisable. I was struck by the Chuck Taylors making it to space. You know, text. It's like, expl. You know, the little booties. Yeah, the booties. You know, that's all you need on the ship. Okay.

B (21:50)

To go back to Rachel's question.

A (21:52)

Yeah.

B (21:52)

Which shirt would you most want and will you, or more accurately Adam be purchasing it for you? Does it feel like stolen valor to wear a science pun shirt?

A (22:01)

Yeah. I don't know if science pun shirts are really my corner, my lane. I love science as a pursuit, as you know. I like telescopes. We talked about that with Van. I can't say that I'm scientifically inclined.

B (22:18)

So it's the cat in the Golden Gate Bridge.

A (22:20)

So it's probably one of the cat shirts. Yeah. He also had the cats shirt, but I don't think I would do that necessarily, So I don't know. Will Adam get me a Project Hail Mary shirt? I'd say almost certainly.

B (22:31)

That'll probably be something like Rocky bits, right?

A (22:34)

It would be like a rocky thing.

B (22:35)

It'll just say, like, amaze, amaze on it.

A (22:37)

Maybe I.

B (22:38)

Is this your merch story.

A (22:39)

I have. I would say I've started to secure a number of items already. I'm going a little crazy. I need to. So here's my story. Okay, so first of all, I got the LEGO set. Obviously I had said Arjuna basically this laughed in my face as he should have because he was like, you got to get the LEGO set. And I was like, I'm taking a break. Oh, I've like, I've run out of space for LEGO set.

B (23:03)

I also would have laughed in your face.

A (23:05)

Okay, sure. You're not going to get nothing has

B (23:07)

been Rocky Lego guarantee that you getting the Rocky Lego. A lie.

A (23:12)

I told myself for like 37 seconds that Arjuna and Adam and everyone who knows me was like, this is horseshit. Just like, you're gonna get this. So I got it. Let me tell you something. It's fucking great. I started to build it on Sunday and built little mini Rocky and he's just wonderful. I can't wait to finish it this weekend and then spend a lot of time playing with it and delighting myself. I can't wait to spend a lot of time playing with it and delighting myself. Take it out of contest.

B (23:39)

Well, you know, here at the house of ours.

A (23:42)

So last night went to see the film at a Regal and I'm on Instagram, you know, as we are. And so I had seen what some of the offerings would be and I had said I'm going to be disciplined. I'm not going to get any of the popcorn buckets. Even though I thought they looked really good. How many there are. There are a couple and maybe a few.

B (24:07)

A couple and maybe a few. So.

A (24:10)

But then I had seen on Instagram.

B (24:12)

I'm sorry, how are we delineating between a couple and a few?

A (24:14)

So a couple is two, right? I think I know for sure that the Regals have the Regal. Regal has two for sure. I don't know if like are there different ones at AMC and Cinemark? I'm not sure.

B (24:24)

Okay.

A (24:24)

But I went to a Regal specifically for another item that I saw they had. So I wanna paint the picture for you. I walk up and I'm looking at the display. Okay. And I'm seeking out a specific thing which I will reveal to you in a moment. I don't see it. And So I, a 39 year old adult woman walked up to the lovely person at the concession stand and I said,

B (24:54)

hello. Yeah.

A (24:56)

Have you sold out of the Rocky Shoulder Buddies?

B (25:01)

Shoulder Buddies.

A (25:02)

It's a Shoulder buddy. It's a Rocky Shoulder but it perches on your shoulder and it's like a soft plush, but like it perches and

B (25:09)

then you'd be wearing it right now if you've been able to.

A (25:11)

I plan to have it and sit with him and then bring it in today and have it on the pod. So I said, is that not a

B (25:15)

little too close to like the bad eggs Buffy, sort of like.

A (25:18)

No, not for me. Okay. Not for me.

B (25:20)

We were.

A (25:21)

And he said, we have.

B (25:24)

Oh.

A (25:25)

And I was despondent. But then I got both popcorn buckets instead. I got the space helmet, the gray space helmet, and Rocky in his habitat.

B (25:34)

Okay. This is. All I've. All I've seen so far is the 105 ounce rocky habitat popcorn bucket, the Rocky shoulder buddy, the aforementioned, and then the.

A (25:46)

Maybe the same at all the theaters. I'm not sure.

B (25:48)

The helmet popcorn bucket. That is what I have seen. Listen, great stuff.

A (25:53)

Yeah. I said, I'll take a large cherry. I say that small popcorn.

B (25:56)

So that's just a couple.

A (25:57)

Not a couple comes with a large popcorn. I said, great. But then I didn't put the popcorn in the popcorn buckets without cleaning them.

B (26:03)

Should we talk about this movie? This is my question.

A (26:05)

No shoulder buddy. That's the, that's the, that's the real.

B (26:08)

Here's.

A (26:08)

I'm pretty crushed.

B (26:09)

Before we started recording again, if you're watching this on video, our buddy Preston the Rat is with us always. And Arjuna was saying we should get him a friend.

A (26:18)

That's right. Yeah.

B (26:19)

I was like a little Rocky over there. And I was like looking for Rocky Marsh that we could put there.

A (26:23)

So will Rocky in this like pile of fake moss actually be discernibly Rocky

B (26:31)

under lit or will he just look like a rock?

A (26:33)

Will he just under lit and like

B (26:35)

his little arms should be doing this movie?

A (26:38)

Rocky is like tatted up. I mean, he's got these lovely, like aquamarine spots and his beautiful bands and his like electric accordion arm that he can, you know, he's just. He looks fucking great. Let's talk about that more.

B (26:51)

Let's talk about the film hobbitsanddragonsmail.com if you have a line on. On like a great, A great Rocky that we can sort of put over there in the moss. I'm. I'm curious.

A (26:59)

Oh, man. All right. Deep dive. Not as deep of a dive as usual, honestly, because we have our interview today and also, you know, we're seeing this in theaters. We're not like, able to chronicle every single line of it as we sometimes are. But we're gonna talk about a thing that we love and that's fun. Let's start with the minds behind the movie, the creative team. If anybody did not either listen to watch the Martian pod or has not heard us talk about this on hypedraft or any of the other 900 times in the last couple years that we mentioned how excited we were for this movie because we loved the book. What is your relationship to this book and Andy Weir's work in general? Like, what is it that you love about Andy Weir's stories?

B (27:48)

I just find them. They're a delightful read. They're, I would say, for me, an even more delightful listen. There's something about the patter of his main characters that just really lends itself to the audio space, and particularly this. I've been like, singing the praises of the proudtail Mary audio experience, but, like, particularly experiencing what they do for the Rocky audio inside of that space. Really, really good. So, yeah, I just find his. His books, you know, I love, like, Terry Pratchett, like, there are. There's certain like. Or Douglas Adams, like, smart comedy genre books. And I would put him. He's obviously much more scientifically focused. There's a lot of the science that just goes right over my head and I kind of let it just kind of buzz in the background a little bit. But just fun, funny, smart, doesn't like, talk down to you and. Yeah. And then, you know, the beautiful relationships that are inside these stories. I haven't read Artemis. Me neither. And Andy will make a reference to that in our interview. But the Martian and Project Hail Mary have read and really enjoyed. So. Yeah.

A (28:56)

Same. This is my. I quite enjoy both the Martian and Project Hail Mary. Project Hail Mary is my favorite. It's the one I read first, actually, and then read the Martian after I. Yeah, like, I just think he. I am also not a scientist and I really love sci fi as a genre. His books are hard. Sci fi. There's a lot of information in there on the scientific front, the astrophysics, the math, et cetera. And I think that you can calibrate your relationship to that as you go for sure. So if anybody's like, I'm inclined to try it, but is it going to be too much? I think the way that both film adaptations, the Martian and certainly Project Hail Mary, calibrate the volume of that and distill it down to its essence is, like, really masterfully done. I do enjoy being able to, like, try to learn a little bit as I read, but I never find it to be a barrier for me, which is great. It's still accessible, even though there's a lot of it. I think that his wit and the charm with which he writes, obviously so much of which is just captured brilliantly by Ryan Gosling with this performance and the embodiment of Grace, which was just really delightful to watch. You know, these books are funny. Like, they're really, really funny and they're really entertaining. And there's a lot of levity injected into what is always. Whether it's something like, how will Mark Watney get off Mars? Or how will we figure out a way to thwart Astrophage and save the sun so that we don't enter an ice age.

B (30:21)

Right.

A (30:22)

We talked about this with Amanda on the Marshpod. Like, the fact that there's a mission and a quest and a time sensitive thing and a clock that we're working against, and there's that repulsive engine to the plot, but then a really endearing central character who is in some sort of really dire circumstance. And then the reason that Project Hail Mary is even more, to me memorable than the Martian, which I did quite enjoy. The friendship that you get here. There's a little guy. There's a little guy.

B (30:47)

And if there's a little.

A (30:48)

Is he on my shoulder right now? No, but he is a little buddy.

B (30:50)

Emotionally. Emotionally, he's always on your shoulder.

A (30:52)

And the structure, too. Like, you know, we have in the Martian the logs, which allow Watney to talk to us in a smart way. The cuts back to Nassa, which he is not a part of. I think that's also something that works better for me in Project Hail Mary because even in the flashbacks. And we'll talk a little bit more in a few minutes about some of the slight distinctions and how those are deployed on the screen compared to the book. But Grace is still at the center

B (31:20)

of all of it.

A (31:21)

So he's really truly the throughline and the beating heart. It's just really memorable tales and obviously very ripe for adaptation.

B (31:28)

I got into a little friendly disagreement once again with our pal Van Lathan in the coffee shop this morning about the Martian versus Project Hailman Mary. And I like, I prefer Project Hail Mary.

A (31:35)

As a film or just a story? As a film. Okay.

B (31:37)

I prefer Project Hail Mary, personally. I don't know if it's just because there's like, a little guy, but, like, I'm. I'm less, you know, in the tank for little guys than you are, but, like.

A (31:48)

Well, I mean, I just think that, like, your grogu Slander establishes that clearly.

B (31:52)

But I just think that I. I think there's just. He's just, like, perfected something that he did so well. And the Martian is perfected here. Van was. Van loves the Martian. He says he rewatches it all the time. And we actually got a ton of emails from our listeners. When I asked on the Martian pod, hey, man, do people rewatch this movie? We got a ton of emails from our listeners being like, yes. But what was consistently true for all of them, and Van admitted the same thing was true for him, is they don't really put it on. It's just on. I guess it's on a lot on, like, TNT and stuff like that. That's not how I watch TV anymore, but it certainly was when I watched Shawshank Redemption one million times, because it was just on.

A (32:26)

The original concept for the rewatchables was actually this.

B (32:29)

You know what's on TNT if you

A (32:30)

see it, and you're like, I must stop, because it's so rewashable, right?

B (32:34)

So the Martian has that quality for so many of our listeners. They were all like, how dare you? You know, even our producer Carlos, like, as soon as you're done recording, he's like, I've seen the Martian one million times. So, like. But yeah, Van was talking about how he felt the concept of the Martian is, like, leaner. And I'm like, yeah, it is. It's a leaner, meaner machine. I agree with that. Project Hail Mary has, like, four different endings. To a certain degree, you know, like, that happens. That's all true. I just think the. As a movie, the emotionality is deeper. I think we love a character on an arc. Like, Mark Watney doesn't, like, learn a ton about himself. I mean, he does. He's confronted with surviving by himself. But Mark Watney was always a smart guy and a heroic guy, right? What we learn about Ryland Grace and who he actually was by the end of this movie, and then what the decisions he makes. That we love a character on an arc stuff is much more impactful to me. And then I think also, I strongly believe, and I alluded to this on the Martian podcast, perhaps too much, but, like, that. Daemon's great in the Martian, but Gosling is such a better fit for Andy Weir's humor, Drew Goddard's humor, and then guy rattling around alone in space, or guy with a little. A little guy with him in space, you know, like Gosling. And, you know, not to underestimate the contributions of Lauren Miller, because there's A lot of. There's, there's the guardrails of the book. It's a very faithful adaptation. Even though it's like missing a bunch. It's a very faithful adaptation. There's the guardrails that Drew Goddard put in place of like, how to Adapt an Eddie Weir novel. And then there's like Lord and Miller's fondness for improvisation, which is true in all of their projects. You know, Spider Verse. They talked about, like, not really even having scripts sometimes. And just like Lord and Miller would just like slap post its in the sound booth in front of people and be like, try it this way, try it this way, try it this way to find the right one. In all of the descriptions of how they made this movie, there's just all like, Drew Goddard would write a joke and then he would say, like. And then they'd spend 45 minutes just like trying different versions of it, you know, so that like, improvisation, no bad ideas in a brainstorm. Find the. Find the funniest version of this. Gosling loves to do it. He did it on Barbie. Lord and Miller love to do it. And James Ortiz, who we'll talk about, who voiced Rocky, loves to do it. He comes from live theater. So it's just like all of that's in the mix to create something just like a bit more special to me than the Martian ever was.

A (34:58)

Would you call it a brew? A brew. Let's talk about Goddard and Lord and Miller a bit more here. Let's start with Drew Goddard, because he is also the screenwriter and adapter of the Martian, but of course that film was directed by Ridley Scott. Why is Goddard such a perfect adapter of and translator of the weird text? Like being able to distill it down to its essence without actually diluting or diminishing it.

B (35:33)

I mean, I'm not saying, like, everyone has to listen to all of our podcasts, but I'm not sure I have any more revelations than what we talked about on the Martian podcast when we asked ourselves this question. But to repeat it, I will just say, like, because he worked on Lost, Alias, Buffy, like three of my all time favorite shows. Got was trained by essentially, actually, you know what's funny is the way that Drew Goddard got his job on Buffy was because he was running a survivor pool in the office. And Marty Knoxon, who was a producer on Buffy, like, was part of it. Found him really charming. Is like, we should, we should have this kid Drew come, like, do some stuff with us. So like, he talks about that all the time. How like running the Survivor betting pool in the office is like how he got his first writing gig on more Win for Survivor. You know, I was thinking about Survivor a lot, actually, because. Welcome to Survivor Corner, our weekly Survivor corner on the House of R. Listening to Tyson and Riley on the pot of Spoken this week talk about, like, how those relationships are formed on the island, how it's like such an intensive. Like, you're only with these people for X many days, X many weeks, however, but it's like you've been with them for years because you're in this sort of intensive situation. Same with Rocky and. And Grace. Right.

A (36:46)

Anyway, point being final two, you know, Drew. Yeah, exactly. All the way to the end.

B (36:49)

All the way to the end. Who wins? Rocky, probably. Yeah. But I think that Drew's. Drew's like that Whedon esque patter, which he doesn't fall into sort of like, Rob and I talked about this a little bit on the Prestige pod when we were talking about the Buffy reboot, and it's just sort of like there are some people who have like, tried to imitate the Whedon patter, and it just sort of feels like an empty echo of something. And then there's just like Drew, who is sort of like born from it, you know, and so it just like it works really well. That kind of energy, that kind of back and forth. He never loses the comedy, but he also never loses the emotionality. Like, emotion is so important to him in what he does. And he talks. He's talked about it when he talked about Project Hail Mary that like, again, if the science is confusing but the emotion is clear. Yes. Then people. You won't lose people. And there's that Joss quote we read on one of our Buffy rewatch podcasts where he's like, make them cry, but then, by God, make them laugh. Like, that's the ethos, right? So like the don't be afraid to be sentimental, sappy, all this sort of stuff like that. But then like, hit him with a joke. And that sort of back and forth is my favorite speed to meet a story in.

A (38:05)

I really. Beautifully put and I really agree. And I think, like this particular tale and character, character said and circumstance lends itself so wonderfully to centering and showcasing that blend of impulses and. And instincts. But then it's also like, okay, why does it work effectively inside of a 2 and a half, ish, 2 hour, 40 ish minute movie? But it's like, well, why does it work, period? Because that's life, right? Like, that's the experience of knowing somebody and going through something traumatic and then figuring out a way to pull yourself out of it. Like watching when Rocky has to

B (38:42)

leave

A (38:42)

his habitat, knowingly imperiling himself in order to rescue Grace because it is that important to him. And it's not just risking the pain to that. He, like, what he is going to be inflicted with in that moment, the agony, the anguish it is risking. Will he ever get back there?

B (38:56)

Right.

A (38:56)

And so it is such a meaningful and horrific thing. And I, like, really vividly remember my just abject terror reading it for the first time and how worried I was. And, like, the ability of the film to grip you and destroy you and tear you apart, even though I knew that it was gonna be okay, is an incredible thing. And there's, like, the fact that you are watching Grace agonize and worry and shed these tears, and you are going to have them press their heads together in their version of a hug and just feel the depths of that devotion. It's beautiful.

B (39:37)

But, like, the hug happens, but then it slows, like. And then inside of that moment, Rocky's

A (39:41)

like, how do you know when a hug's over?

B (39:42)

How long do we do this? How do you know when a hug's over?

A (39:45)

It's fantastic.

B (39:46)

This other thing, like, Dru, I don't think we can overstate what Drew has accomplished here, because the book is fantastic. There's incredible bones to this story, but it is what he has described as like, a screenwriter's nightmare. Right? Because it's like, you've got a character alone for a long time that's really hard to write. You've got all this scientific jargon. And he stripped out a bunch of it, but some of it still made the case there. And then he meets someone who doesn't speak English. So there's this language barrier part of the script. And then there's also. We'll talk about the challenge of building Rocky, but a character who cannot emote with facial feature. So the language has to do a lot of work there as well. So a screenwriter's nightmare, but, like, a challenge that he relished and spent a really long time on it.

A (40:38)

The kind of version of that that Lord and Miller had directing. They talked about this a little bit with Sean on the big pic. Everybody give that a listen if you haven't yet. All of the terror, the fear that they felt when they were reading the script. The dream for the first time thinking, like, damn, this is going to be hard. Like, studios are gonna be scared of A co lead who doesn't have a face.

B (41:03)

Right.

A (41:04)

But also, like, the sets that you're gonna have to build and like, okay, this is gonna have to be a puppet because we want Ryan Gosling to perform with a real tangible being, not a tennis ball. I'm paraphrasing, like, what they said to Sean on the pod.

B (41:20)

Andy talked about that.

A (41:22)

Yes. And then in the process of then having to figure out how to do that, and you end up with magic. So, yeah, we got to chat with Andy about the Rocketeers, Right. That was the five puppeteers who are actually there. And like, if you're a nerd, a movie nerd, a genre story nerd, you're hearing. Andyou'll get to hear Andy talk to us about this, hearing Lord and Miller talk to Sean about it. Many other interviews out there. Like, I kind of almost just on reflex, like, was started thinking about Yoda, right? And Empire and like, so, like, connection to something almost sacred here and how

B (41:59)

you end up with these reportedly. So, like Neil Scanlan, who designed Rocky and also designed the Porgs and done a lot of great work with Star wars, etc. Etc. I get really excited whenever I see Neil Scanlon's name on, like, a creature design. This is like what James Ortiz has said in interviews that Neil Scanlon said to him, right? He's like, you're Frank Oz and I'm building you Yoda. And they built it collaboratively. And also in one. In one of the interviews I read, I think it was the inverse interview with Livy Scott. I think Livy's observation was like, that comp is so apt. Not just because Yoda is such an indelible creature and all of this, but when you think about Luke alone on Dagobah and how Mark Hamill talked about how important Frank Oz was for making that a successful sequence, because otherwise it's just like Luke alone on a swamp.

A (42:48)

Well, and then to your point about. Just like, with love and respect to

B (42:51)

R2, R2's also there, obviously.

A (42:52)

Sorry.

B (42:53)

Don't get mad. Stop writing an email, frankly.

A (42:55)

Good save.

B (42:55)

Stop it.

A (42:56)

Good save. Delete, delete. It's like, you know, the only what you take with you idea as well in terms of that arc that Grace is on and, like, what is he bringing and what is he piecing together and slowly unlocking about his history and his choices? And then what does he do with those insights once he is able to stare at them and confront them like they're. And, you know, Lord and Miller, Rashawn also, they Talked a lot about like studying more recently because obviously, I mean, I mean, we're decades away from when Empire came out, right? They talked a lot about studying Dune, Villeneuve's Dune more recently. And like when we left our first screening with Sean, like, we were all obviously talking a lot like Close Encounters, which you already mentioned, 2001. You know this, this story is at once so fully realized and specific and utterly itself in a way that just I think delights us as fans and nerds. Where it's like, this will be a thing that people are talking about for a long time. It's like Project Hail Mary. You hear it, you know what it mean. It evokes a sound, it evokes a feeling, it evokes an image right away. But it is so stitched into a tapestry and to a history right into a legacy of these not only like sci fi stories, but stories of exploration.

B (44:10)

There's a space film grammar that they are like fluent in. You know what I mean? That you can see inside of this. And this is why it was so fun for us to do this space film draft or whatever and revisit all of this. Those movies I also want to like on the creator front, I want to give Ryan Gosling the credit because he's the one who first got the manuscript for this before the book was even published. He got the Project Hill Mary manuscript. He called Lord and Miller. Right. Incredible. I'll let Andy talk about why Drew Goddard was like the only person he wanted as a screenwriter here. But, but Ryan is the first person who was attached to this. Got Lord and Miller.

A (44:43)

Yeah.

B (44:45)

Where Lord Miller go? I don't know the exact order of operations, but like where Lord and Miller goes, so goes Amy Pascal. Amy Pascal is a producer on this Amy Pascal also producer on the Spider Verse movies. I'm just like hugely always rooting for Amy Pascal post Sony leak. But something that, like, because she was ahead of Sony and then the Sony, the, the, the Sony email leak hack happened. I've read a ton of those emails because I had to for the book that I wrote. But it feels like such an invasion to read these people's emails. But what is true about Amy Pascal is that she was. Was always a huge Lord and Miller fan. She, she would write about them constantly. Like, what can we do with them? What can we do with them? What can we do with them? She was a huge Drew Goddard fan. That's. He was going to do the Sinister Six for her. Like, she has been Drew Goddard champion. Lord and Miller champion. I Am so happy for her that, like, spider verse has paid off for her. She did Little Women. She had challengers. She's just, like, been making, like, Pascal Productions, and now she's going to be on the James Bond movies. Like, so, like, Amy Pascal, like, From the Ashes sort of rise for her. A Strange Woman, parodied in the studio by the great Catherine o'. Hara. Like, absolutely. But, like, just has a great eye for talent. And so, like, the Pascal Goddard Lord of Miller Gosling. Andy Weir being quite involved, which he'll talk about in our interview with him. Like, that whole mix is so important. But I just, like, I love the. The. The timeline is that, like, all of those people were in place before the book was even published. And that's like, people. People optioning the rights to a book before it's published. Happens all the time in Hollywood. But, like, having the whole team in place, that's wild. That is, like, extremely rare and. And. And very cool.

A (46:28)

Really, really awesome. Part of that improvisational spirit that you mentioned manifested in the James Ortiz of it all, because this performance that we got is real, is a performance. Right. And they built the spaceship, like, they built that set in full. So this stuff is happening practically around Gosling, and they're moving and they're responding to each other, and they're setting up wires to figure out, is this a zero G scene, Is the centrifuge active? Right. Like, these are not CGI green screen sequences. This is something that was rendered in full and being able to respond that in real time to, like, what was that unlocking about the performance and the chemistry and the relationship that translates to something significant and palpable on screen.

B (47:23)

Absolutely. And, like, again, I don't. I just don't. I don't want to, like, completely. I have this, like, bad tendency to, like, jump on interviews that happen at the end of the podcast. I do, like, I want to let Andy tell the story, but, like, he didn't talk about a lot of the specifics of the puppetry, which, as you know, I'm always eager to talk about. Like, so there are multiple rocketeers, like, operating the puppet. The puppet was created in conjunction with James Ortiz, who is the lead puppeteer and the voice of Rocky. He's a theater guy. He recently did Audrey II and Little Shop of Horrors in the Little Shop of Horrors revival. So he's been doing, like, theater puppetry. This is his first film ever. Incredible. And it's huge.

A (48:02)

What a film to take a first to talk about.

B (48:05)

It was his idea to do the Kind of puppetry where it is like all these different guys on raw on individual legs. So they did that for a lot of of the movie. But there are certain sequences, like when they're in a space where you can't fit. Yeah. You know, all the. All the puppeteers, what you. And our notes called the Volume, but what James Ortiz called the Don't Go Crazy room. And like they can't all fit in there. So what they did is they had an animatronic Rocky that was connected to a puppet that they were operating off camera. So they would still do the puppetry off camera and then the animatronic Rocky would like do it as well and is a digital Rocky. And like some of the like orb moments and stuff like that. But also James Ortiz talked about how he sometimes would get in a hamster ball himself and run around set and bump into things and just like record his dialogue.

A (48:54)

I mean, when Rocky's making his grand entrance into the Hail Mary for the first time, like the most enthusiastic cat playing with a new toy and just rolling around dirty, dirty.

B (49:03)

I mean, the best he's going to like. I just, I think this is one of the greatest like on screen creator creations that we've ever seen.

A (49:14)

It's really sensational.

B (49:15)

Like, this is a quote he gave, I think in that Inverse interview. And I just thought it was so beautiful. There's so many times that we have a job where maybe only 30% of us is invited to work. Hail Mary is the first time in my career where 100% of me was invited to work every day. Me as a sort of sci fi nerd, me as a cinephile, but also me as an improviser and puppeteer and sort of team leader. So I just like, I just think this is such a cool thing. And yeah, like we'll talk a bit more about like how the physical sets that they built and all that sort of stuff like that. But to make it feel as real as possible.

A (49:49)

Yes.

B (49:50)

Is just a huge accom in a space movie with a critter co star is just like an incredible accomplishment of this movie. And this is why I'm always advocating for puppetry. I think it's just like makes a huge difference. Like, is there a version of this with CG Rocky that could have worked maybe, but like, I don't know. I just think there's something so special about a puppet. Put it on a T shirt.

A (50:16)

She's always thinking about puppets.

B (50:18)

I'm always thinking about puppets.

A (50:20)

You're also always thinking about Music. Anything about the score or the needle drops that you want to hit from the just kind of like broader creative tapestry of this film, frontier soundscape is really mesmerizing.

B (50:30)

That was the first thing that like, like, you know, the three of us were really animated to talk about when we got like, we were literally walking out of the darken theater talking about the score for this movie. Daniel Pemberton, amazing Slow horses. You know, done some great work on slow horses.

A (50:46)

What do you think Jackson Lamb would make of Rocky?

B (50:49)

I think he'd be delighted by Rocky, honestly. I think it would. It would melt even Jackson Lamb's heart.

A (50:53)

I agree. And certainly the way that Jackson Lamb slurps noodles, he would have no feedback for Rocky when Rocky finally needs to ingest some sustenance. None at all.

B (51:05)

You know, Daniel worked on with Lord and Miller on the Spider verse movies, so he's like, worked with them for a long time. But he also, he sort of similar to, I think Dune was just like, you know, Greg Fraser, who's a cinematographer on this movie, worked on Dune. So Dune is like a huge inspo around the clock. And one of them is Hans Zimmer. Sort of like really went for. And his team went for like a lot of unusual sounding instruments to sort of create this alien sound inside of the score for Dune. And Daniel Pemberton used the glass harmonica, which you play by get ready. Rubbing wet fingers in spinning glass bowls.

A (51:44)

Rubbing wet fingers in spinning glass. Okay, okay, I'm intrigued.

B (51:49)

The glass harmonica, the crystal basquet, a French instrument that uses metal rods and glass to produce sound. And the onde Martinand, one of the earliest electronic. It might be Andes Martinat, I don't know. But one of the earliest electronic instruments invented in 1928, choral. A lot of choral music. And Daniel Pemberton's intention was to design music that sounds like it comes from a place where humans haven't been right, you know. But the use of the choral is so interesting. And especially like in the needle drops. When I went to go see this with my nephew and my sister, my nephew had this like big reaction to one of the music, one of the songs. And I was like, afterwards, I was like, why were you. You sort of sat up and he was like, oh, I learned that in Spanish class. Like, there's a lot of like needle drops from around the world involved in this. Because this is a global effort. There's a lot of non English language music used in, you know, alongside the Beatles and Harry Styles and stuff like that. There's a Lot of that. So I just, like. Did you have a fav. I know you love dad Rock. Was the. Was it the Kris Kristofferson, like, what really delighted you? The Neil Diamond? How did. How. What did you most enjoy off brand?

A (52:57)

Because I barely engage with contemporary music, but I think because Strat at karaoke was just such a fucking wallop of historic scene. It was gorgeous. I was, like, weeping the second time around again, I guess. Sign of the times, because it was just such an incredible, incredible scene that really, really, really gobsmacked me. I loved it. I can't wait to talk about that more.

B (53:24)

I got really emotional. I mean, I. Oh, Like, I always love a Beatles needle drop because they're always incredibly expensive. So it means that they, like, really wanted this song and, like, to have a Beatles needle drop. When the four Beatles ships.

A (53:38)

Great stuff.

B (53:39)

Set off back to Earth. Our little probes, John, Paul, George, and Ringo set off back to Earth was great. Two of Us is actually. The song that they play is a song that I sang senior year with my pal Liz Clar as part of, like, our, like, senior farewell showcase. We sang Two of Us. Like, that's a song that's very important to me of a very important time in my life. So I actually got, like, really emotional when the. When the. When the, like, percussion started, I was like.

A (54:05)

I was like, let's go.

B (54:06)

It's Two of us. How exciting. And then it's just like, two of us. Like, Rocky Marlin. So beautiful.

A (54:12)

Ah, that's just absolutely wonderful. I love to. We're learning a lot. You shared a lot of musical history about yourself lately. This is a game gift.

B (54:19)

I was a singer. I don't have. I don't have as much of an ear anymore, but I used to have a better ear, and I used to be a singer.

A (54:26)

You sang very memorably on the Martian podcast.

B (54:29)

Memorably. I didn't watch that social media clip because I don't want to know what it sounded like.

A (54:32)

I did. And I was like, jo, sounds great. Just like when you revealed your masterful artistic renderings on the recent Valentine's Day special. The other thing about just the soundscape of the story, obviously, you know, we have all of, like, the tech sounds and everything, but. But Rocky, you know, the journey to discovering and choosing Rocky's voice, which we will talk about when we get more fully into the Rocky Grace relationship in a bit, is obviously a hugely crucial part of the story in the film, and again, very amusing. But Rocky is musical when he is just emoting. Through sound. That is how he's obviously moving and conveying a lot with his. The expression of how he moves his limbs and how he moves his body. But he's using whale song in essence. And so it is very simultaneously, like, I think Rocky is very cat coded and really reminds me. And just the bond. They form this idea of, like, what if you couldn't actually talk to someone, but you had the deepest connection that you've ever experienced with any. It's really like, Rocky really reminds me of Halo, but like the. He really does. He really does.

B (55:43)

He also.

A (55:44)

And I've made a similar comp to like, the.

C (55:46)

The.

A (55:46)

The beeps and boobs of the droids to relationship with, you know, a beloved cat before. But, like, it's also very. Droids beeping and booping.

B (55:53)

Like you.

A (55:55)

If you have a bond with your droid in Star wars, you are communicating in full with them through the little beeps and boops. Right? So on the one hand, I love that they're, like, learning to understand each other through the miming and the mimicry and the pointing and the tapping. Great. You're. You're. You're not tapping. Your pointing bit made me laugh. The puppet shows. It's all just wonderful. One of my favorite gosling deliveries in the movie was like, that's a big ask about the helmet coming up. That's a big ask. It's all great, but so you have these beautiful, you know, like, oh, what's your mate's name? And it's just like listening to sounds from the depths of the ocean for 45 seconds. And so do I love that. We get to hear Rocky speak eventually, of course, but the fact that you can understand what he is trying to convey before you put human words against it is actually really the point, right? As is the point of being in a position where you recognize and understand that a barrier like that doesn't have to be a barrier. That's obviously one of the great takeaways of the story. Right? And we'll talk about that, too. Like, we talked about this with Andy. I think this is like. Like something we've been. That we love about the book and have been anticipating about the movie is it's just like on that Hope core front. That's true in a lot of ways, right. We can save our planet. We can help each other. But also, like, whether it is that global effort on Earth that you mentioned or this bond, this relationship that Rocky and Grace forge, it's like you are looking at somebody who's different from you. And that doesn't matter. It can be the most beautiful connection and relationship that you forge if you choose to try. Right. And I just think that that's, like, a beautiful message in general and obviously one right now in our deeply up

B (57:43)

world, these capital T, divided, capital D times that we find ourselves in.

A (57:48)

Yes, it's just lovely.

B (57:49)

Erica Doll is the name of the sound designer. He also worked on A Quiet Place, which is a very quiet movie. But also the sound is very important in that. But, like, yeah, though the whale song for Rocky. And also just like. And also that goes back also to the puppetry design because, like, when he's singing his mate's name and he's, like, quivering with the emotion and adoration for her that's inside touching the little Mars that's inside the puppetry and inside in this, like, performance of, like. Let me get her beautiful name right? Let me sing it for you. It's just gorgeous, Adrian.

A (58:23)

Absolutely. Just iconic. Iconic.

B (58:25)

Really funny.

A (58:26)

Iconic. Really funny. All right. The stakes, the tones. We've talked about, you know, the mission, Petrova line, astrophage, killing the sun, every other star except one. And so we gotta get there to find out why that's not happening there and if there's something we can learn about it that can help us save Earth. Because we're. The temperatures are gonna drop, we're gonna head to an ice age. The crops are gonna die, the animals are gonna die, the people are gonna die, all because of what's happening, but also because we're gonna tear each other apart. Right. Chilling moment, obviously, in the film when Strat is talking to Grace and is like. And that's if everybody agrees, right, to share and to ration. And guess what?

B (59:09)

They won't.

A (59:10)

And I think that's a really crucial aspect of the story, too, that that is a necessary acknowledgment of the fact that the inclination to team up and work together is, like, not always how it goes, right?

B (59:23)

Well, the fact that it belies.

A (59:24)

So this is.

B (59:25)

This is how it goes in the novel, which. I really love this section of the novel. Right? So, like. Like she says in the novel, no, you don't know, because it gets a lot worse. And then Grace says, worse than half of humanity dying. And she says, of course, leclerc's estimate assumes all the nations of the world work together to share resources and ration food. But do you think that will happen? Do you think the United States, the most powerful military force of all time, is going to sit idly by While half their population starves. How about China? A nation of 1.3 billion people that's always on the verge of famines in the best of times. You think they'll just leave their militarily weak neighbors alone? I shook my head. There'll be wars. Yes, there'll be wars fought for the same reason. Most wars in ancient times were fought for food. They'd use religion or glory or whatever as an excuse, but it was always about food, farmlands and people to work that land. Very Dune.

A (60:16)

Yes, quite.

B (60:17)

But like, yeah, that is so important to stand in contrast to what Rocky and Rylan find with each other in space.

A (60:26)

Yeah. And on the contrast front and you know, obviously this is a reveal to us in full over the course, over the progress of the novel and then the film. But you have the people who are part of this mission, right? There's the three person crew and then their backup. So these six people who have made a choice to go on a suicide mission. It's a one way ticket. They're not coming back. They're gonna send the Beatles back. They're gonna send the probes back, but they're not coming back. And for Grace in the book, there's

B (60:51)

a bunch more fucking. Before that happens.

A (60:53)

There's a lot more. I was glad we got at least the like kind of cheat GR and

B (60:57)

a little like cozying up karaoke party.

A (60:59)

Yeah.

B (61:00)

And the little.

A (61:01)

The great little conversation between. Between Grace and Strad about like oh, people are hooking up. Well, you know, like they're seeking comfort before the end. But yeah, there is a lot more fucking. I. The fact that we glimpsed earlier that Grace is like. Well I would. This is like unthinkable to me that you're doing this thing right. And we get the. Well, you just like need someone to be brave for and then we are building toward that. But you have Grace as a character who is emotionally inclined and empathetic and positioned right away as thoughtful and entrusted with the care of other people. He's not ever selfish character. So this is another kind of delicate dance in the story. Like you know, with the students. Obviously there's like the utility of him explaining some of what is happening. Two children who will be terrified us in the audience. But yeah to us, you know, these

B (61:57)

children in the audience smarted by a

A (61:58)

13 year old wouldn't be the first time. Great line in the book. But you know. Yeah, like using the 13 year old, his students as like avatars for us. Wait, I'm confused. What's happening? What Do I need to know? How bad is it? How quick is it? What clock are we on? But one of the passages in the story that I've always just loved so much is so. It was so. I just can't see because I'm, like, going blind and really need glasses. Have I mentioned that today? So it was that with the apocalypse looming, possibly caused by an alien life form, I stood in front of a bunch of kids and taught them basic science. Because what's the point of even having a world if you're not going to pass it on to the next generation? And this gets to another thing that we've been talking about Across Space month that you've been, you know, centering and identifying is really crucial, and it's very present here in this story. Whereas science. Not just a scientist, but, like, a science teacher who, yes, has been cast out by his academic peers and fellow researchers who thought that his ideas and his disposition were not appropriate. Right. Well, you don't need water to be a life form, et cetera. You know, the idea that he had, like, made a mockery of himself in the halls of knowledge, but then he's like, he's a science. A middle school science teacher, and he's going to be the one who saves the world. Rocky is a mechanic. Like, he's an engineer. And so the idea that you have, like, intellect and ability to, like, think about how to solve a problem and, like, try to interrogate what is happening in the world and figure out a solution, these are our heroes. It's just really, really cool.

B (63:30)

There's, you know, because astronauts are very cool heroes as well. Mark Watney's a cool hero, but, like, the fact that, like, love it. But, like, this is what. This is what Drew Goddard told Ann Thompson for Indiewire. He said, quote, I love watching competent people do their job. And his mom was a schoolteacher. We're not doing a story about the world's greatest astronaut. We're going to start with a school teacher's point of view on a core level. Quote, the school teacher saves the universe. End quote. Sounds preposterous and yet felt so right to me. And I was thinking a lot about, like, I mean, the fact that it's a. Our main character is a school teacher. Yeah, we love teachers. We support teachers. We love scientists. We support science. The. I was thinking a lot about the superhero era. You know what I mean? Like, we're in a really cool era for big films that are. That are branching us outside of the superhero era. And you. And I love the superhero era. And we cover those movies with, like, love and affection. But it is fun and exciting to see your dunes and your project Hail Marys and your whatever else the case may be. That is like a big giant that isn't necessarily tied to this idea of might equals. Right. That's not all that Marvel had to offer specifically, I would say, like, the Stark and Banner Science Bros. Part was a huge part of why Marvel was so endearing. But there is fundamentally. Often this comes down to who can punch the hardest. Right. And that's just like. And essentially that is what the Atreides force is trying to do, which is punch the hardest. But, like, what this story comes down to is there's not gonna be a third act big fight. The fight is gonna be internal about your own. Like, what can I do? And who am I inside of all of this? So, like, this is not to denigrate superhero movies. I love them. But we love diversity of storytelling. And I love that this is something which, like, you're not just your intellectual abilities, which is very important for Ryland to figure out. Why am I here? What do I need to do? How do we fix this?

A (65:31)

This?

B (65:31)

Yeah. And for Rocky to. To figure that out as well. Rocky being like, you're pretty dumb. I have some great ideas. That's the best. But also that emotional journey to empathy for. For Rylan, which is something that is revealed a bit at the end for people who haven't read the books and haven't seen the movies. But upon rewatch, knowing that we're watching this character access emotional, heretofore unplumbed depths inside of him. Like, Rylan Grace is such an interesting character because, you know, I think we did get. I. I did see some comments for people being like, how is someone as hot as Ryan Gosling? Like, man, I'm just not good with relationships, you know, And I'm like, well, hot people can be dysfunctional too. But like, but wouldn't women be trying harder to access the closed off man that is Rylan Grace? But, like, whatever it is about Ryland that has made him sort of like, you know, we hate Mark. Like, have this. This relationship go awry. I think it sources back to when you watch that scene when Strat first comes to find him. And you alluded to this, like, wants him to join this project, and he's like, no, not me. You know, he's like in a full panic because this public shaming of his intellect is one of the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to him. And there's something I actually know. I know a few teachers who are like, like, actually the kind of. It's, it's like, it's like listening to Noah WIILEY Talk about Dr. Robbie on the Pit, where it's like you get to have these great interactions with people and then they like, move on. So you're like their favorite science teacher for a year.

A (67:09)

Yes.

B (67:10)

And then they move on.

A (67:11)

Right.

B (67:12)

And so like, there is. There is this like intimacy there, but then there's just sort of like there's an end point on it and I only have to let you in this far. And also you're a kid, so you're not going to act. Ask for like, greater access to me than I can afford to give, you know, so Rylan Grace has all these, like, sort of hallmarks of a close off person, but he doesn't even know that that's who he is necessarily. As he lets Rocky in and closer and closer and closer in this extreme circumstance that they find themselves out stranded in space together. You know, I, I love that.

A (67:41)

And like the fact that he, with the, the research paper, you know, was shamed and was rejected, but, like, he bet on himself and it didn't work.

B (67:52)

Yeah.

A (67:53)

You know, and that's like devastating. Right. Like, it makes sense. I mean, I think it makes sense just to be afraid. Just to be afraid to go to space and try to do this thing and know you're not making it back. That feels very human and relatable to me. I think we all like to think that we would be like, sign me up. I'm ready to give it all for everyone. But, like, would everyone do that in the moment? Right. This test, like, when you're in the Crucible, I was think of our. Makes me think of Archai Viserys, you know, chunks of his body falling off and like saying to Lyonel, like, you know, I wish I had been tested. Like, maybe, maybe I would have, like. And then Lionel says back to him, like, most people who are tested wish that they hadn't been.

B (68:34)

Right?

A (68:34)

And that's like one of the truest things out there. So I, you know, I think that one of the really like, boy, I mean, every scene with Strat is really good. I loved when Stratt said to Grace, like, don't pretend this is about your students. It's so insulting because, like, calling out the, like, don't use these kids as a shield for your cowardice felt like the thing that she would say in that moment. But then you have something like in the book Ryland looking at the kids in the classroom and being like, man, their generation is the sixth extinction event.

B (69:13)

Oh, no.

A (69:15)

They're sitting here and we're talking about this and they're like, 30 years, that's nothing. Everybody thinks that the thing in the future is not their problem. But for the kids, it's not about, like, shirking the responsibility, like, of an older generation saying, like, I don't care what planet the younger people inherit. It's like they can't conceive of that passage of time and what it would mean to have nothing left by the time they basically reach like the bloom of adulthood. But he is there and knows how precious every moment is. So he's looking at them and he's like, it's already gone and they don't even know it. Right. And so is he using what we're talking about? Yeah. But is it true that he cares about them and wants them to be okay? Yeah.

B (69:51)

This is behind my theory about the generational admiration for interstellar. It's a different experience. Yes. For people who are younger than we are. Like, you know. Yes. I grew up knowing the phrase the ozone layer, but like, it's just different.

A (70:03)

No question.

B (70:04)

For people who are just sort of like, looking at the math of like, how much time we have left and being like, oh, shit.

A (70:10)

Yeah.

B (70:10)

Oh, I love Strat.

A (70:14)

Tell me.

B (70:15)

Sandra Healer is just like, fantastic, incredible in this role.

A (70:21)

And they.

B (70:23)

I think she's the biggest change from the book.

A (70:25)

Yeah.

B (70:25)

Characterization wise, they've. I think the word they use is more humane. Made her slightly more humane, but she's still very like, I, I believe that she would be the person leading this project. No question. It's interesting. I, I relayed this story to you. I won't call them out, but a member of my family, not my 15 year old nephew who had read the book, was like, I pictured her much younger and hotter. And I was just like. And then, and then I was like, on Reddit, I saw someone else, like, wrote the same thing. Like, I really pictured Strat younger and hotter. And it's like, Sandra hiller is like 47. She's described in the book as mid-40s. Like, like, and the. This is like one person. I read it and everyone was yelling at him. So this is not like, representative of a larger argument necessarily, but like,

A (71:17)

he

B (71:17)

was like, well, there's this like, sexual tension between her. I, I pictured Anya Taylor, Joy, and I was just sort of like, you would entrust the savior, salvation of the world to 20 something year old Anya, Taylor, Joy. Like, are you kidding me? Also, Ryan Gosling and Senator Healer are, like, the same age. His beautiful wife is five years older than Sandra, actually. So, like, I think that the, like, free zone of sexual tension that exists between these two characters, like, around that sign of the times performance, like, when they're having the conversation out on the. On the deck. Like, I. It's like. Like, there. There's this thing there that is not, like, purely raw sexuality. It's like emotionality and power and intellect and all these other things wrapped into one. And I just think that, like, Sandra's performance is so funny. Like, she's so dry. She got so many laughs out of me. She's so funny, scary.

A (72:18)

Do it faster.

B (72:19)

Firm, convinced. When she makes her decision at the end of the flashbacks, like, to do what she does, like, it's believable, but it doesn't make you on rewatch hate her. And then you get this moment which is, you know, as you noted in our notes here, like, additive to what happens in the books of, like, her many years later at the end.

A (72:40)

I loved that moment.

B (72:41)

You know, I just think. I think the use of Strat in this movie and the choice of this performer who, you know, has been incredible in everything she's ever done is, like. It's slightly unorthodox, a slightly unorthodox choice, but, like, just the absolute fricking banger. Right. Choice.

A (73:02)

I agree.

B (73:03)

Like, really elevates the movie to something special for me.

A (73:05)

Yeah, I thought. I agree. I think she's absolutely sensational and really just, like, commands and holds every scene that she's in. And I think you're exactly right. Like, you believe that she would be the person not only who can do this thing, which is compel people to participate in this and unite and align toward this quest. Like, a lot of the specific details of what needs to happen are not in the movie. And I think pacing wise and stuff like that, in terms of how often we're cutting back to Earth, it makes sense. We don't spend a long stretch, for example, talking about where do we need the land for all the solar panels

B (73:39)

or the greenhouse gases.

C (73:41)

Yeah.

A (73:41)

But you have to understand that every single person who is partaking in this most essential and urgent of undertakings is all. Everybody is doing this under her oversight and vision and, like, the staunch conviction that it's worth trying. I love the like. And this was obviously in the trailer, but, like, you Americans call it a long shot.

B (74:03)

Right.

A (74:03)

Ah, Hail Mary. I got it. Okay. But it's not just about, like, what is the ship gonna be called? And the mission called in the book and the movie called. It's like the acknowledgement that this is an impossible undertaking, but, like, let's find a way to make it possible. And then the fact that it is not cold like, that there is a unceasing and unyielding commitment and determination, but not a cruelty. To your point, I think that is. That's really the essential element because, like.

B (74:29)

And hard to nail. Like, I don't think of her as,

A (74:32)

like, she's not unfun caring exactly.

B (74:35)

I think, you know, but she's just like, I've been tasked. I have to do it with making this impossible choice. These impossible choices. And, like, I. I'm not feeling sorry for myself that it is my choice. I'm taking it on. But, like, it's an intergalactic trolley problem, you know, and she's just like. She's someone I would trust to solve it, but it's not a decision I would want. I would not want to be in charge of those decisions.

A (75:00)

I love that we get both sides of, like, Grace asking her and basically saying to her, like, it must be really hard, you know, to ask people to do this thing. She's like, it's not actually. Because how can it be hard practically, logically, rationally, if you know what it is for? And it is clearly right and worthy, right and worthwhile. But when it comes time to tell him, okay, I'm not trying to convince you, actually. I'm explaining to you why the thing that's about to happen is about to happen. She's like, sh. She's like, quivering. Because they have a connection. I agree. Like, I thought that the chemistry between them was really electric. And again, even though I know how the story goes, when I was watching. Watching them out on the. The deck before we watch her sing, and then watching him watch her sing, I'm like, are they about to fuck? You know?

B (75:50)

Absolutely. So good.

A (75:51)

But it's more about, like. I mean, it's the sexual.

B (75:55)

And that's commented on in the book. Yes. Like, their connection.

A (75:57)

Yes. Is a sexual draw there. Yes. Is the same thing there for them that is there for the other members of the crew are like, okay, well, we are like, the only people who understand this thing that we're a part of. And also, it's maybe all about to be over either if you're on that ship or if you're not, because who know if it's gonna fucking work. Right? Like, connect and love Each other while you can.

B (76:16)

Yeah.

A (76:17)

But there is, like, a respect and an admiration that they feel for each other. And so that's just, I think, really beautifully, wonderfully captured. And it makes the idea of sacrifice. Like, sacrifice is always more effective when it's presented to us as something that we understand to be true. Tangibly. Like, it's interesting as a concept when it's an abstract, but this is a person she has grown to care about, and she has to say, I'm not giving you a choice in this, actually, at all. I'd like you to make a certain choice, but if you don't, it doesn't matter. You're going anyway. Right. We have to feel what that means for her, and we do. And we have to feel what it means for him on the other side of it. And then to watch him piece this together and understand this thing about himself, this is just incredible. And like, Gosling, on the other side of those moments, conveying such a sense of, like, terror and despair, but then later, shame. And shame. No question.

B (77:17)

Like, something that, you know, we were trying to explain to Shawn that I don't think is, like, quite clear in the movie is the way in which these flashbacks are coming to him in real time as you're watching it, that he is remembering what happened in real time. So the flashback that reveals that it was not his choice to go on the Hail Mary is something that he is learning for the first time in that moment. So, like, earlier, when they're talking about bravery or all this other stuff like that, like, he has to assume he signed up for this mission.

A (77:47)

Yeah.

B (77:48)

And to find out via excavation of his own memories, which is. You know, again, I don't think the movie quite nails that sort of idea. When we see him sort of hunched over himself, that's him processing, like, oh, God.

A (78:01)

Oh, no.

B (78:01)

This is who I am.

A (78:02)

Yes.

B (78:02)

Yes. I'm someone who is too afraid to do the thing that I. That was asked of me. Yes. And it's so impactful. The Sign of the Times karaoke, not just because I love a musical moment, but just sort of their shared conversation without language. Like, similar to Rocky and Ryland, like, this just sort of, like, conversation of looks that they have. Apparently, it was Gosling's idea that she sing because the actress herself likes to sing, and she said she would only do it if she could sing Sign of the Time. So, like, she.

A (78:36)

I have no notes.

B (78:38)

Like, she. She picked the Harry song.

A (78:40)

Great.

B (78:41)

That conversation they have, that's my favorite, but my second favorite moment of the movie and I cried both times is when Carl says, you know who you are. Right. As. As Grace is passing out. You know who you are.

A (78:55)

Yeah.

B (78:56)

You know, and, like, you might not believe in yourself, but I believe in you. Strap believes in you. That you can do this, man. And it's just like, yeah. Oh, to have someone tell you that, I know you know, dude.

A (79:07)

And, like, then you think about the white.

B (79:08)

Not just like, I know who you are.

A (79:09)

You know who you are. You know who you are. It is in there. It's in there. And, like, then you think of the moment where. So Gosling wakes up on the ship. Yeah. Right.

B (79:16)

This great physical comedy stuff. Flippity flopping her. Really good.

A (79:21)

Really. It's. The set design is incredible. The costume design is incredible. Like, all of the production elements are wonderful. His performance is hysterical.

B (79:28)

Wigwatch. Incredible.

A (79:29)

Wigwatch. Go. My goodness.

B (79:31)

Beard. Watch much.

A (79:32)

This is very satisfying when he cuts through the beard. But, like, so in the text, he. I mean, here it's clear he doesn't know what's going on or who he is. In the text, it's like those triggers to the memory. It starts quite memorably where he. He's pulling and he's falling, and the catheter rips out of his penis.

B (79:54)

Yes.

A (79:55)

And there is a trail of blood across the floor, and the red line triggers the Petrova line memory. And so there are all these descriptions in the book of, like, I remembered it all at once. It just kind of showed up in my head without warning or my subconscious wants to tell me something.

B (80:10)

Like, I think it's clear at first that he's like, you know, he wakes up, he doesn't know who he is or why he's there. Right. So, like, that's clear at first. I'm just not sure that the movie did a perfect job of helping people understand that he's discovering all of that.

A (80:24)

I definitely think it's much less clear in the film that that is as what's happening. And we've had some people just tell us that, oh, I didn't know that's what was happening. But I also think it's, like, a little bit less. I don't know, obviously, his memory coming back. It's clear that he wakes up and does not know everything. But the extent to which that is an essential thing that he is trying to overcome is just a little more central in the text. And some of that is obviously very. It's very funny. You know, he'll say a thing or do a thing, and he's like, what kind of weirdo am I? Like, why do I. Why do I say fudge?

B (81:01)

Right?

A (81:01)

It's like, stuff like that.

B (81:02)

I'm a teacher, you know, I know

A (81:04)

Liberia uses imperial units, but I don't know my own name. That's irritating. Like, there's a lot of comedy that comes from it at first. But the reason.

B (81:12)

Am I smart?

A (81:13)

Am I smart? My smart is a great one. But the reason I just brought this up here is when you're talking about Carl, it made me think of one of the first things that he writes down on the whiteboard as he is trying to piece together in the film. The complete sense of who he is, who am I, and what was my life? Why am I here, Carl. Right. And so the fact that, like, is that about, like, the Skittles and, like, we're fathers, Carl, and, like, are you sitting down? And all of that, which is, like, really charming and wonderful.

B (81:47)

Obviously, a memorable trip to the Home Depot or whatever it was. I don't know.

A (81:51)

That looked like fun to, like, you know, the play basketball, basically, with the shopping cart. That looks great.

B (81:57)

Bowling. Some bowling.

A (81:58)

The bowling with the aluminum foil. All wonderful. Is it about all of that? Sure. They shared a very memorable thing together, you know, do we have an expense account? No, but I do. We know I do. The. It's definitely that last moment, though, right? It's the fact that Carl is a person who's, like. Who said the most important thing that anybody could have said to him. It's like, who's Carl? Oh, Carl's the person who told me I could. I know who I am. Right. And there's a level of something inside of him, even though he doesn't know his own name, that knows that that matters. And that's just, like, incredible, right? Also, always muscles, like you said, the heart and the humor all there all at the same time. Great story. Joanna, let me ask you a question about. On the heart front. Cause that's like the. You know, the humor, the heart, all of it's. Or space friendships. Why do we love a friendly alien? You know, what is it about a friendly alien that is so compelling to us? Is it that we don't want to be afraid? We want to know that we don't have to be scared. We want E.T.

B (82:58)

do you want to be a friendly alien?

A (82:59)

You don't love E.T.

B (83:00)

i don't love E.T. as much as you love. I love E.T. i don't love E.T. as much as you love E.T.

A (83:04)

so you want to be. You want to be Scared?

B (83:06)

No, I. I like the gamut.

A (83:08)

Yeah.

B (83:09)

I think sometimes you will be scared. Yeah. And sometimes it's just Jeff Bridges wants to have sex with you. That's Starman. You should watch it. You know, so like, indeed, it could be all kinds of things.

A (83:20)

I like that indeed, it could be. It could be all kinds of things.

B (83:23)

But I do, I do like the idea that like, you know, when. And it's played to great comedic effect, but when Grace first sees another show ship, he's like, ah, you know, like. And tries shittily drives the spacecraft to try to get away from them, you know, like really funny. But like, yeah, his first instinct is like, whatever this scary looking craft is must be terrifying. Yeah, they're here to hurt me, you know, and then the lesson is like, no. And you have to learn to trust this person via taking your helmet off or whatever, you know, going down the thing, opening the canister that has been sent to you. All that stuff is played for laughs, but it's also just sort of like, yeah, he's fearful. And then it's just. And then like, it's a huge. Both times we saw it, it's a huge jump scare. When Rocky first, like, his little hand, like first shows up in that. In that one little window in the rock wall, you know. What I mean is like everyone here is like, ah, you know, and it's like played for her fright, you know, but like, I mean, Rocky's incredible, but like, yeah, you want to believe. It would be lovely to believe that if we met intelligent life in the universe, it wouldn't be what Strat describes, which is not just like the US Superpower. And it's like militarily inferior neighbors, China or whatever. It's like this planet and their intellectually inferior neighbors Earth, you know, would we be conquered? Would we be colonized? Would we be decimated? Like, what would we be?

A (84:44)

So what if we could work together? Well, we got to talk to Andy about this, and this is obviously not just present in this story. Like, well, what if we not only worked together, but became the dearest of friends? Something he just is. It's like almost like a. A foundational belief of his that informs his work and how he thinks about the wider universe. So that was a fun thing to get to hear him talk about because you mentioned the ships moving in tandem in that space dance, which of course makes me think of Wall E. Space dance. Here's another great space dance with the ships instead of Wally and Eva. What was your favorite visual moment in the film? Is it that? Is it something else? Do you have a top tier? This is the one that stands out most powerfully in your mind.

B (85:23)

Now, I do have one.

A (85:26)

Tell me.

B (85:28)

But I. I do. I want to talk about Greg Fraser for a second. Greg Fraser, the cinematographer in this movie, as I mentioned, worked on Dune and the Batman.

A (85:39)

So

B (85:43)

Miller, like, took to Twitter to clarify something that they said at Comic Con, right? Which was like, we use no green screens in this movie. And people are like, what the hell? You didn't mean you use no green screens on this movie, right? So he tweeted this, right?

A (85:57)

They went to Adrian.

B (85:58)

Yeah, they went to space. Don't worry about it. Chris Miller wrote some clarification here. No green screen doesn't mean no vfx. There were in fact thousands of VFX shots of the film. 2018 shots, to be precise. Green screen is something used in lieu of building sets or figuring out locations, lighting in advance, which can be noticeable if not done carefully, and is something we didn't want to do. We built, as you alluded to, we built the entire interior of the Hail Mary shot ship. But within the ship there were still wire and puppeteer removals and ceiling replacements, etc. When Ryan is outside on the hull of the ship. Because when I read this, I was like, what do you mean, no green screen?

A (86:31)

He's in space, Joanna. They went to Adrian.

B (86:35)

We shot him in the front of a black background for space and a shifting hue background when he was up against the aurora of a planet, which allowed for truer interactive light on him than a green screen would. The wide space exteriors and spaceship shots were entirely digital and beautifully done by ilm. Rocky was a seamless blend of puppetry and animation from Framestore and other great work from many more. It really does take a village. We had the best of the best on our side. So, like. And then they've talked about, like, Chris Miller on Twitter has talked about how the process of how they shot this, which is like a process that Greg Fraser has used on both Dune and the Batman, which is shooting. Shooting it digitally. They shot it in letterbox for flashbacks, like widescreen for flashbacks, and then IMAX for space, like bigger format. So the ratio changes in the memories versus when you're in space, depending on where you see the movie. But they shot it digitally, they transfer onto film and they transfer it back digitally, which is like, sounds like an insane process, but as Chris puts it adds warmth and texture to the final format. So you get this, like, though it's shot digitally, it has this warmth and texture to it. So, like, this movie, from the intentionality of the set deck to everything else, the fact that I think it's. Is it. I think Charlie Wood is the production designer. But the way in which they built the ship to have all these different, like, panels and monitors and different languages, because the Hail Mary is the production of, like, many different space programs working together. So they sort of cobbled this spaceship together from all these different

A (88:12)

places.

B (88:12)

So, like, there's this patchwork. It's like a metaphor for the whole story is the patchwork of the ship itself. The way that they, you know, much like the way they made Joseph Gordon Levitt, you know, be able to run around a hallway in Inception. They're on a gimbal. They're turning the set. You know what I mean? There's, like. And Lord and Miller talked about how. This is a long way to my answer, but I will give you an answer. But Lord Miller talked about how. How working on Spider Verse, yeah, sure. Inspired them to just sort of, like, move the camera wherever they wanted to move it and move the set wherever they wanted to move it. They wanted to add this level of surreal surreality to everything. So, like, places on the spaceship would have, like, chairs on the walls. Right. Or, you know, when. When Rylan's writing on the whiteboard and then, like, the cup is magnetic on the side, you know what it means? Because, like, the ship might turn in a different way and the room is still usable from a different angle. All of that stuff is really cool and really inspired by the. Both Spider Verse and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs background that they have in animation of. Just sort of like, we learned, especially in Spider Verse, you think about that final fight and into the Spider Verse, where your camera's just going all over the place and reality is blurring everywhere, and the audience is just with you. And so they're just sort of like, take that ethos over here. All that's to say, I'm actually going to pick the moment when Grace is outside the ship and they flip to the Petrova setting. That's an indelible movie moment. Combination of score, sound, visual effects, performance from El Goncito, Ryan Gosling himself is just, like. You know, it's incredible. Just awe inspiring.

A (89:58)

Yeah. I thought that the ship dance was really cool, and the predator retrieval sequence was obviously very cool and very harrowing. But I agree, it's the shift to the Petrova, that light frequency, that cam, and just the actual gasp that you emit when you see that, when you see the screen go black and red or kind of pink. Incredible. And we're prepared.

B (90:25)

We've seen, like, glimpses of. Of that. So we, like, are prepared for that on a small scale to know what that visual means. Yeah. But to. For his entire world.

A (90:35)

Yes. You're seeing it on a monitor, you're seeing it on a microscope. But then it's our whole. It's the movie theater that you're in. It's a really immersive and. And meaningful and cool way. And I love that. That, like the idea that it is like a visual version of the way that the side science is explained to us. Right. Where you just kind of inherently then understand something. I thought that the kind of like, side shot that we got of the river almost of the light was really cool. But the front, like, when we're behind Grace and he is just surrounded by the dots, by the astrophage and the light, it's just really, really awesome.

B (91:10)

Also the way that that is like

A (91:12)

a depiction of a thing that's killing

B (91:14)

multiple planets and species. Well, you know, like the. As it's the astrophage, that's what it is. And it's beautiful.

A (91:22)

Yeah. I mean, there's like an annihilation kind of quality to that. Right. Where something that is like, so haunting and disturbing and is tearing people and places apart is like, what if it were beautiful flowers? Or like coral reefs? You know, and the idea that. That nature is astonishing in both its beauty and its terror. Right. And like. Yeah. I mean, you know, astrophage is like a. Even just the name and like, it's a little more present in the book Grace kind of naming it and then goes to back to school and like his students say it and he's like, how do you know that? And him kind of, oh, my God, I said this thing to Strad and then it went to the president and then went to the media. Now they know it. Right. And the way that these things are understanding and the way that we communicate about something forges in real time. But then sometimes it is just like you said.

B (92:06)

Yeah. Riley and Grace, welcome to the news cycle.

A (92:08)

Exactly. Or like when he's, you know, the first time that he realized it's like a cell and he's trying to see through. And then, you know, the. The. The moment where he kills the first cell. But like that exchange in the book, it's like, so you poked it with. You poked it with a stick.

B (92:22)

Right?

A (92:22)

So you poked it with a stick. He's like, what yeah, you know, this is great. This is wonderful.

B (92:28)

It took you that long to figure out to poke it with a stick.

A (92:30)

Yeah. We talked about the flashbacks already in terms of just what they kind of unlock structurally. Are there any other moments that we actually see in the flashbacks that you want to hit that we. We. We haven't yet.

B (92:44)

I don't think so. I think they kept it like really nimble, really legible about what was going on. I think if I had any. Well, I guess I've already critiqued it slightly, but I. I will just say our favorite Ken L. Is here. Barely, but not enough. Barely, not enough. I know that guy's one of the funniest guys ever. And so like, you know, and they. He's saddled with a bit of an accent and it's like a whole thing. So I would have just loved a better deployment of one of our great comedic actors inside of this.

A (93:19)

I would have loved more of him as well. He's a delight. And in general, I think a little bit. I mean, I assume that there was

B (93:29)

more and this was once an over

A (93:31)

three hour movie and some of that that we lost, maybe those moments down on earth with the crew. But not only would it have been fun, I mean, I did, you know, I love the little moments that we get when Grace who's, you know, again trying to understand who he is, but who these people are, these dead bodies that he discovered. Do I know them? Right. Who are they? And you get some great moments in the movie where he's looking at, you know, the photos of Yao's family and he's like, you make a funny face in every picture and like he doesn't remember that yet, but he is trying to honor this person and give him this moment.

B (93:58)

I cried the second time I watched it. I cried during those burial scenes.

A (94:02)

Yeah, it's really lovely.

B (94:03)

The Kremlin, he's like badass appear to me.

A (94:07)

Yeah, you're appearing to sneak into the Kremlin. Very funny, very good. But in the text, this is one that always hits me so hard. It's dawning on him one of the memories that's coming back. We were a lot more than friends because he finds himself. He's looking at them or seeing their names and he's like. He just starts crying. Like his body is responding to something that is buried inside that he hasn't unlocked yet. And then there's this passage. We were a lot more than friends and team isn't the right word either. It's stronger than that. It's it's on the tip of my tongue. Finally, the word slides into my conscious mind. It had to wait until I wasn't looking to sneak in. Crew. Yeah, we were a crew. And I'm all that's left, which is like, first of all, I think a really lovely way to kind of, like, honor the genre. The idea that crew could be more than, like, team or family in this context. Because crew is the holiest thing. Right? Lovely. But also that Grace is in a position where he said, no, I'm not gonna go. I'm not gonna do it. And it wasn't cause he didn't love these people. It wasn't because he didn't care about them. It wasn't because they weren't in it together. Right. And that just feels more kind of layered and nuanced and true to, like, an experience than, oh, I'm not going. Cause I don't give a shit about you or if you're okay. It wasn't that at all. But because Rocky is also in this position where he is alone and everyone he came with died and he doesn't know why. And Grace helps him understand and piece it together. Right? And the idea that Rocky can make anything in an instant and figure out a solution to any problem, and he'll figure out the habitat and he'll, you know, obviously, incredible. When Grace at the end asks to go to see his ship and he. Grace has his version of Rocky's bubble. He's like, I'll make the chain. You know, we'll figure out. Why is Grace dumb? Grace is not usually dumb. Why is Grace dumb? Question. But he didn't understand what happened to his shipmates. He didn't understand what happened to his crew, and that this is a shared pain and a shared trauma. To understand what the characters. What the other characters in Grace's crew meant to him. Having even a couple more moments with

B (96:07)

them would have heightened that further, I think so. And, like, how that's communicated inside of the, like, Rocky needing to watch Ryland sleep the best, you know, which is played for comedy when he's just, like, right on top of him and stuff like that. Like, it's really good, but it's also just sort of like he does, you know, like Grace doing that, like, dragging all this stuff into the tunnel because, like, he lost his entire crew.

A (96:31)

I'm a side sleeper anyway.

B (96:32)

Yeah, it's really good.

A (96:33)

Oh, my God. Do you know what line in the book makes me cry the most?

B (96:37)

Tell me.

A (96:38)

I sob like a baby during a lot of the book because it's just really beautiful and their relationship means so much to me. But when they do separate and say goodbye before Grace makes this choice to go back and save Ryan, I drift off to sleep. It feels wrong to sleep without someone watching because like this whole time he's like, what?

B (96:56)

Yeah, what?

A (96:58)

But then of course, when Rocky is healing, he's like, I'm there.

B (97:00)

I'll be by your side.

A (97:01)

I will watch you. And then it's like it has become

B (97:03)

the tap, tap on the glass.

A (97:06)

God, it's like it's become a thing. It was foreign to him. It was alien. It was different. It was not something that felt, but it becomes a share form this culture

B (97:15)

of two, you know what I mean? This culture of two that involves, you know, Rocky watching the Rocky movies or like when Rocky has like a project. Hail Mary, Hatch healed me to bear with me.

A (97:30)

He's like, it's a celebration. Yeah, celebration outfit.

B (97:32)

Well, not just like the celebration, not the celebration outfit, but also just like the ball cap. Like, you know, it's like a cultural exchange. You watch me sleep, I wear your weird clothing. You know what I mean? Like, so they're creating a culture of two. You're a two of us. It's.

A (97:48)

You're a big. You love an ocean vista, I love an ocean vista. You park crevice, but you love an ocean vista. People know it about you. How did you. How would you grade Rockies? I'm in the Hail Mary version of the volume surfing form Hangton.

B (98:02)

Oh yeah. Let's pretend I know anything about surfing.

A (98:04)

I have watched a surfing enthusiast.

B (98:06)

I would love to surf.

A (98:09)

Well, what should we do first? Learn to skateboard or learn to surf?

B (98:12)

I think one will actually help us lead us into another. And one involves falling a couple feet to concrete and the other involves falling into the ocean. So I think we should try skateboarding first. My new landlord is a surfer and I was asking him, I was like, how old were you when you started surfing? And he was like 45. And I was like, sick. So. Damn, it's possible.

A (98:34)

Did you ever boogie board?

B (98:35)

No.

A (98:36)

I used to boogie board when I was a kid.

B (98:37)

Kid.

A (98:38)

And then I got hurt once and then I got scared and then I stopped.

B (98:40)

I love to watch the surfers like in the bay or in Hawaii. And one time when I was living in Hawaii, I don't know if I told you the story, but there was a, like a tsunami warning and like that was so bad that they like evacuated like all the people down below and we lived up the mountain so people came up and, like, spent the day with us, stuff like that. But we were right above Waimea Bay and you could go out and look and there were like surfers out there riding the. The tsunami waves.

A (99:06)

They're chasing the 100 foot wave.

B (99:07)

Oh, we're all there.

A (99:08)

Oh, yeah. Do you watch 100 Foot Wave? No, it's good. Okay. Gorgeous. Like, I mean, first of all, just a kind of fascinating psychological study into why people feel compelled to chase something like that even though they're so. It's so dangerous. It's really. It's a really interesting sports doc and also nature doc and travel doc. The scenery is, like, unbelievable.

B (99:33)

I think it's really sweet that you asked me if I watched a sports dock because I think, you know that I.

A (99:37)

But you love the ocean, so maybe to you it's just a wave dock.

B (99:40)

I don't know. I will say this. Is jumping ahead, but at the end. Yeah, When Grace is essentially, like living in Big Sur, it made me like, he's living on a foggy beach, which is honestly my number one ideal habitat. And here I am in Los Angeles and it's like 900 degrees, so like,

A (100:03)

could not be warmer than it is right now, so.

B (100:06)

So it made me nostalgic for the barrier to see the foggy ocean.

A (100:09)

I thought that the biodome looked amazing. I mean, first of all, it's just.

B (100:12)

They're working on the temp of the ocean.

A (100:13)

They'll get there. That was really funny. He's like, you know, it's just amazing that they did it. It's just amazing that they did it at all. But very reminiscent of when we walked into the studio for the first time and I was like, it's just amazing that we did it at all.

B (100:25)

But does the AC work?

A (100:26)

Does the AC work?

B (100:27)

Is it functional? It's still going.

A (100:30)

Is it? That's great.

B (100:31)

Yeah.

A (100:32)

I love seeing the cliffs in the biodome and how they kind of match the, like, you know, the veining and the colors and the rock. That was all really cool. And the ocean looked wonderful and the fog in the air beautiful. Thought that Grace's living quarters looked great.

B (100:45)

While it really just looks like something you could rent on Airbnb for $9 million a night in Big Sur.

A (100:51)

Should we go to a.

B (100:52)

If Sweden wants to pay for us to go to a Big Sur retreat, you let me know.

A (100:56)

I went to Big Sur once and it was dynamite. Oh, yeah, big surprise.

B (100:59)

But to stay on one of those, like, cliffside, like, mostly made of glass houses that they have on a Big Sur.

A (101:04)

That's a spendy, great, great bookstore cat up in Big Sur. Should we just mention now that there's one crucial change in the story which

B (101:15)

is, I think, the most important adaptive change. And I did ask my nephew if he missed it, and he was like, I think it's better they didn't.

A (101:21)

Yeah. Yeah. So Ryland Gray, you know, they've made an atmosphere in which he can function.

B (101:28)

So he goes to save Rocky.

A (101:30)

Yep.

B (101:31)

Knowing that he will not be able to live, believing he will not be able to live on the planet. And he does not have enough food to last him. So, like, he's like, I'm going to save Rocky and all of Rocky's people. I'm gonna send the Beatles back to Earth so I can save Earth that way.

A (101:45)

Probes.

B (101:45)

Yep, probes, Jeff probes. And then I'll go save Rocky so we can save Aaron, but not. I'll save the Shire, but not for me. Right. Like, he doesn't get to do it.

A (101:57)

And it has been saved.

B (101:59)

They figure out a Big Sur habitat for him. And then in order to solve the

A (102:03)

food problems, gotta make some man burgers. They made.

B (102:06)

They clone his flesh and make him burgers out of human flesh. I was. I called them. They do me burgers or whatever. My nephew's like, oh, actually, I mean, it's just cloned meat. I was like, sure. But that's still fundamentally me. A burger of you, Mallory Rubin.

A (102:21)

Here I go. Yeah.

B (102:23)

If you had to survive and the only way for you to survive, to get the protein that you need.

A (102:28)

Yeah.

B (102:29)

Is for your Iridian friends to clone meat and make it into a burger. Yeah. I'm just gonna assume that you're gonna do it. You're gonna eat the burger to survive. Would you rather it's meat. You meat or meat? Mallory burgers or Joanna burgers?

A (102:47)

Could we do both for some variety?

B (102:50)

Yeah.

A (102:51)

Well, like. Or maybe like Tuesday nights, just sloppy Joe night.

B (102:56)

And please don't say sloppy Joe. I present it.

A (103:04)

We're just trying to, like, you know, maybe. I mean, it's just me. We could make tacos one time.

B (103:09)

Tidy Mal and sloppy Joe.

A (103:10)

Listen it Messy mail.

B (103:13)

There we go. It took me years. But I did get you to admit that you would eat the meat of your friend to survive.

A (103:20)

If I were a member of the Yellow Jackets. If it were me, I would simply not part of a friend.

B (103:26)

I think we just established that you would.

A (103:28)

I think in this circumstance, if I'm like, I have my plane crash, I'm stranded In the wilderness. I have to turn to cannibalism or I die. I'm probably like, I bet I'm pretty unhappy here. Anyway. Anyway, Aid seems pretty cool. I think I'd want to stick around. I'd want to get to interact.

B (103:42)

Well, Darius and Yellow Jackets is beautiful. Trees.

A (103:45)

Yeah. But there's a lot of, like, who did Misty poison the soup? There's a lot of stuff going on.

B (103:51)

There's a lot of shitting in buckets. I would say one time shitting in buckets is too many times. There's.

A (103:58)

In the bucket. We have rules. We have house rules. God damn it. Aerid seems cool, so I'd wanna figure out a way to stick around.

B (104:07)

Flesh burgers.

A (104:09)

You think they. There's no other option. They all seem so smart. There's nothing else to do.

B (104:16)

Too bad he sent his pals out to be buried in space. Cause surely you could harvest those corpses for a second.

A (104:21)

I don't know. They looked pretty. I mean, I guess.

B (104:24)

DNA.

A (104:24)

You could use the bones to make soup.

B (104:25)

Ooh, Some marrow. We're not talking about the physical flesh. We're talking about cloning them.

A (104:30)

Yeah, but then, you know, after you clone it, aren't you gonna use the original material? Cereal? Make a soup? No. I don't know. I. The truth is, I'm not around long enough for any of this to be relevant. I die right away. I'm one of the dead bodies.

B (104:42)

That's true.

A (104:43)

My coma went poorly. I would probably not have brought bags full of vodka, but maybe I would have had some, like, sour ale that Grace. Or in this case, you could have enjoyed after I left. What would you have. Would you have put me.

B (104:54)

I would love to buy you a shirt that just says, my coma went poorly. Well, I remember my coma went poorly.

A (105:04)

I think we all know my coma went poorly. What haven't we hit on the Rocky Grace team up that we want to discuss? Anything else on the design front? We talked about, I guess, the ship. The ship in the tunnel, the xenonite, the way that was all rendered on screen.

B (105:17)

Just astonishing, I should say, that when we went to Comic Con, your first Comic Con, we were in Hall H, and they did this really cool thing in Hall H that I think we probably talked about about when we did our Comic Con episode. But I'll just discuss again. Like, sometimes in a Hall H presentation, they open up the sort of monitors on the side of the hall, and so we were surrounded by, like, blueprints and photos of, like, the tunnel and the ship and all of the work that they had put into the. Remember, like them talking about the light. The light rats, you know, like that they had to like, like I do basically warm the planet in order to like create the light that they needed in order to light the ship. So like, I just think it's incredible also in the design of Rocky, I mean, you mentioned the tats, but also it's like a. I think it's like I'm going to get the puppetry terms from. Please don't kick me out of. The puppetry club doesn't exist. But if it did, I would want to be a part of it. But anyway, I think you would be the founding member. There are treasurer, there are literal puppeteers. Sure, but I'm a mirror enthusiast.

A (106:21)

Isn't that how fan clubs work?

B (106:24)

Nobody said the puppetry club.

A (106:26)

True. I assume you meant fan club, but

B (106:28)

you meant of puppeteers proper club, like the Magic Castle, but make it puppets.

A (106:32)

Okay, I retract the comment.

B (106:37)

Rocky was like a shell, a printed shell so that the light could come through and make his Rocky tatted skin look like translucent like skin. Very cool.

A (106:48)

It was so sad when he had his wounds. Cause he smokes and then he's like

B (106:53)

a shrieking, smoking sound.

A (106:56)

This is so sad.

B (106:58)

Oh yeah, it looked like. It's like ink, you know, bled splotches

A (107:03)

and like scarring, you know, battle wounds. And Grace has his scarring on his arms and stuff. Face still looked perfect even though he smashed it into a screen. Still look great. Listen, must be nice. Must be fucking nice.

B (107:15)

That filler's doing his work.

A (107:19)

Another Rocky visual that I thought was really well done was the echo look. Because echolocation is in general something we come to understand, you know, how is Rocky seeing. We get to see through what Grace looks like to him a couple times. Rocky vision. That was cool. And like, you know, something like the clock moment where again, it's a really simple way to help us understand the texture of how Rocky, quote, unquote, sees and sees the world and how it renders to him and what Grace looks like to him. But then when Rocky makes his little scanner so that he can visually render on his. His little sound wave plate thingy. Is that the technical term? And again, that connects to like Grace in his class.

B (107:56)

I think you just got kicked out of the. Kicked out of the Rocky Club physical.

A (108:02)

No, no one can kick me out of the Rocky club, frankly. I won't leave. I won't go. Sorry, I am in my bone.

B (108:10)

I'm sorry I interrupted you doing sound Waves

A (108:15)

your hands out to do this.

B (108:17)

Is it cool?

A (108:21)

I'm not getting much sleep lately. Blips early. Blip bit. That was great. With the first blip coming really fast and it's like, oh, my God, it's going to be a bomb.

B (108:32)

Just like, bing.

A (108:33)

He's like, oh, guess Mary. We both have egg on our face. That was so funny. And then Blipsy comes much more slowly. He thinks I'm dumb, which. Incredible. What else? Let's see. On the learning to communicate front, do you think they should have gone with Meryl Streep's voice? Would you have chosen Meryl Streep's voice for Bug? If you were choosing a voice for your cat, what would you do? Would you have gone with the French voice?

B (108:57)

Meryl's voice is much too warm for my incredibly mean cat.

A (109:03)

I'm gonna meet. I'm gonna meet Bug, and Bug's gonna

B (109:07)

be very mean to you. I love her.

A (109:09)

Her.

B (109:10)

She's nice to me, except for when she bites and scratches me, but she's really mean to everyone else. But if you. But if anyone. As I said to you already, if anyone can charm my cat, it's you.

A (109:20)

I don't want. I. I don't want to put too much pressure on. On the meeting, but cautiously optimistic. We'll see how it goes.

B (109:26)

And I wish you luck. I wish you good fortune and the great wars to come.

A (109:31)

Thank you. Yeah. Chris's favorite Thrones moment. There you go. It's wild that my first association now with that reference is Chris Rock. I don't know why.

B (109:41)

He's an enthusiast.

A (109:42)

He is. What else? Let's see. Oh, you know what else? I loved the kind of like, because they're bonding, right? And they have this shared pursuit and this shared purpose. So there's the mission aspect. There's a genuine affection and enthusiasm. There's the comedy. There's all that. I got a real kick out of the new roommates, like, getting a little tired of each other sequence work. Crazy.

B (110:05)

The, like, real world confessional. Incredibly good. Yeah, you can hear this. Who is Grace talking to? Killed me.

A (110:15)

That was great. And then, yeah, the choices they both make. You know, the fact that Rocky. Grace has kept something from him, which is, I'm not going home. And Rocky is despondent because he loves Grace. They have become friends. He doesn't want him to die. And he says, you know, like, with his. He couldn't find fix. What happened to his crew can fix this, right? Can fix. It's just like, it hits when his,

B (110:40)

like, little hand comes up to, like, flip the switch. That. That. Oh, my God, Rylan, like, just could not reach.

A (110:46)

Oh, my God. Sweet little Rocky and his little limbs.

B (110:50)

Here's. Here's a quote from James Ortiz which very much underlines what you said about these divided types, right? We are craving stories about connection, about seeing past difference. Past differences. And also things that are full of love and color. There's a reason why those things have existed for such a long time. And that's something that I'm going to try to keep chasing.

A (111:12)

I love it. I do find this to be truly an inspiring story, like, genuinely. And. And I. What they're willing to do for each other, what they're doing on behalf of so many other people. The fact that Grace has this moment of recognition about not having made that choice and then doing it anyway. And Rocky not only, like, the. Because Rocky's like, all right, we have the great moment earlier in the story where he reveals, like, his mate. How long have they been together? We hear this number and Grace makes a joke, right? Honeymoon phase. And Rocky's like, it's not enough, right? Like, they could have these really long lives, but every moment with the person you love is precious.

B (111:48)

Rocky and Adrian.

A (111:50)

Rocky and Adrian. We ship it. Rocky telling Grace that he will give him the fuel to get back to Earth.

B (111:59)

Cost him years.

A (112:00)

Six years slower return to his mate. For everyone on arid who is waiting for this rescue, for the future biodomes that they might build and the meat burgers they might make. So that's a sacrifice, right? And then, of course, Grace having his moment because is the, like, contaminant moment. The talmoeba. Did you ever play Portal? Great video game, like contaminant. The cake is a lie.

B (112:29)

No, the cake is a lie. I'm aware of.

A (112:31)

Yeah, Great video game. It's a. It's a fun. It's fun with like, now I'm probably too old and dumb and slow to figure it out, but back in the day, I can barely get up in the morning how long before.

B (112:41)

But we're going to learn how to surf and skateboard. Yes.

A (112:45)

I. I don't think I'll excel at either. I'll be honest.

B (112:49)

We're gonna get you a lot of padding and it's gonna be great on the back.

A (112:54)

It has breached the vessels, right? And so there's a lot more stuff in the book about, first of all, how they bred the, like, nitrogen resistant strains. We go through a pretty extensive and exhaustive process. It's like Kind of summed up with a quickness here. Used Rocky's breeding tanks, and that was wonderful. And also, there is a problem, which is that Rocky's ship is made of the xenonite that they have learned how to breach.

B (113:23)

So Grace finds a way.

A (113:24)

It does. It does. And Grace is like, okay, I found that person who I'm gonna be brave for, right? I am going to go make sure that Rocky is okay. Like, that moment when Rocky comes back to the tunnel and realizes he came back for him, it's just amazing. It's, like, so moving. Oh, my God. It's just really, really, really touching. So I love.

B (113:49)

And then, of course, like, at the end, not just have we talked about the house in Big Sur and the me burgers, but also just sort of this idea of like, hey, like, you could go home, right? And Ryland being like, like, let me think about it. Let me think about it. He's like, yeah, take a long time. Think about it for a long, long time.

A (114:08)

That's so good. I really, really love that we got. We already alluded to this, but that we got to see Earth because that is a. That is a adaptive choice.

B (114:15)

Well, yeah, in the book, there's like,

A (114:17)

hey, Jeff probes went back.

B (114:20)

Jeff probes went back. But also there's, like, reports that the sun, you know, the Earth sun is back in action, right?

A (114:26)

Like.

B (114:26)

Like, Rylan, Grace gets, like, news that probably it worked, right? But we're not seeing the reality of Strat on the. In the frozen ocean, you know, like, how bad it got before this information came back and how long it took based on her fairly well done old age makeup and wig. Watch.

A (114:46)

Yeah, Looked sensational. Nice way to show us that time has passed, both the planet and on the person. And yeah, you know, you get a little bit of a End of sunshine esque spoilers, like the brightening of the sun, you know, visual, which is nice, but, like, I just love, loved getting to see. Not only just to know definitively, but to see her receive this, right? To see her watch these logs and know that they got to see Rocky is really cool. But also the pride that Grace did

B (115:16)

it and, like, she made the right choice. He was the right person. That little figurine that is of him that she now has this, like, little xenonite.

A (115:24)

Hello, merch lover. Rocky. Rocky. Because who made the puff? Fellow puppet lover. I mean, we knew Rocky was the best, but damn.

B (115:34)

But also, Strat loves merch, apparently, because she put that Funko pop right on her dashboard.

A (115:38)

She did

B (115:40)

she's got her Riley Grace Funko.

A (115:42)

She really did. Anything else that we haven't hit before we get to our interview with Andy Ware. Let's get to Andy. Okay, let's get to it. Our conversation with Project Hail Mary author Andy Weird. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started@redfin.com own the dream this episode

B (116:25)

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A (116:51)

Shop now@palmolive.com this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. We're here with Andy Weir. What a trill. What a thrill. What a treat. What a joy. What a true. Exactly. Exactly. We don't even need sound treatment now on the podcast. We're ready to go. We're very excited to have you here. We are huge fans of your work, of the film adaptations of the world worlds and the characters. We have a lot we want to get to today. Wanted to start with Hope. Hope Connection. What a concept. Yeah, you know, let's start with the small, easy stuff. Sci fi. Great Sci fi can often be a lens into an eternal experience, a moment in time. And the Rocky Grace connection is such a wonderful beacon of hope. And I think especially right now, for people who've read the book, for people who are going to be coming to the story for the first time through the film in a moment that Is, like, very defined by division. It is really a beacon and a reminder of how looking past differences and finding. Forging a bond and finding a connection with somebody who might be different from you can literally save the world. I think it is, like, incredibly inspiring, and I think it's gonna be, like, a real source of inspiration for people who see the movie. So I'm wondering how, when you were crafting the story in the first place, like, how much was the desire to center that kind of lesson and that kind of message part of the thrust of the story you wanted to tell? How much of that emerged in real time? What do you hope people carry with them after they read the book or see the film in that respect?

C (118:53)

Well, I wasn't really trying to push any specific idea or agenda or anything like that. When I write, I never have, like, an overarching moral or ideal behind it. I'm not. Not trying to teach you anything other than maybe a little bit of science. I'm not trying to change your mind on any political issues. I'm not trying to affect you or make you think about anything in the real world. When people are reading my book, I want them to be able to escape reality for a little bit. And when you're done, all I want you to do is put the book away and say, that was fun. That was a good use of my time. That was fun. So there's no real overarching theme or secret message here. But I do. I will be the first to admit I'm a bit of a Pollyanna. I have a very high opinion of humanity and human nature. I think we are an inherently good people. And I do think that the default state of humanity is cooperation, collaboration, and getting along. And it's very easy to get a negative view when you look at the news or whatever, because you see all this negativity, all these bad things happening. But just remember when you're watching that the bad things are on the news, because bad things are newsworthy. They are rare. You don't report things that happen a thousand million times a day. That's not news. So if somebody trips at an intersection and breaks their leg in a city and seven or eight people gather around, pull them out of the road, call 911, wait for an ambulance, maybe get the guy some water, ask if there's any relatives they can call, a bunch of strangers will come together and help that person. And you're not gonna see that on the news because it's so overwhelmingly expected and ordinary for people to do that that it doesn't even register. It's like the vast majority of people in that situation would do the same thing. It's automatic. So I have a high opinion of humanity and cooperation.

B (120:50)

I mean, I love that. I love that you describe yourself as a Pollyanna. Rylan Grace describes himself as an optimist inside of this book. So I'm curious. I'm always interested in the author self insert, like how much of you is in Ryland? And then what is it like then to see Ryan Gosling play this character on screen?

C (121:10)

Well, I mean, he's not as handsome as I am, obviously. Not quite.

B (121:12)

Not quite.

C (121:13)

I mean, but there's only so much

B (121:14)

that he can try.

C (121:16)

He's just a mortal man. No. So interestingly, Ryland Grace is the first character of mine in a book that isn't directly based on my own personality. Mark Watney is just straight up me, okay? He's just me with all the things I like about myself magnified and all the things I don't like about myself erased.

B (121:38)

Isn't she nice?

C (121:39)

He's the idealized version of me. It's great. I'm smart. He's really smart. I'm kind of funny. He's really funny. I'm afraid to fly. I have to take Valium to fly. He doesn't have that problem.

A (121:49)

How do you feel about potatoes though?

C (121:51)

I love potatoes actually and I actually like disco. So there are some differences, but yeah. So that's Mark Watney. Now Artemis, also known as Andy Weir's other book. The main character is a 26 year old Saudi woman who grew up on the moon. So obviously that's just like me.

B (122:11)

Exactly, in every way.

C (122:13)

But jokes aside, she really is just like me because. Because she has all the character flaws that I had when I was her age. I gave her kind of more of the darker side of my personality when I was 26. Just like jazz, I was ostensibly very intelligent, yet still managing to make really bad life choices. Most of my problems were self inflicted. I just completely relatable Tails all this time. Yeah, I was my own worst enemy. So. So although you may not think it when you look at a 26 year old Saudi woman who grew up on the moon, she is also a self insertion character. Ryland was the first time I sat down and I said like, okay, for once I'm not just gonna base a character on myself. I'm gonna make a new character out of whole cloth. So I made him like, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, but I wouldn't consider myself Overly innocent. Right. I wouldn't consider myself naive and Ryland is a little bit naive and he's also not super brave and he's also like, you know, he's got his flaws. And so I created that character out of whole cloth, so that's the first time I did that. If you're looking for the self insertion character in Project Hail Mary, it's Strat.

A (123:25)

Oh, thought you're gonna say, and that's less.

C (123:28)

No, no, it's Strat. Strat is less who I am, but who I would love to be.

B (123:34)

What about what?

C (123:35)

Wouldn't you love to just cut through any and all red tape? Wouldn't you like to just be able to just say, no, we're gonna do it this way instead? Like, you have an objective, you're working toward that objective, and literally everyone on earth has to get out of your way. Isn't that a awesome power fantasy with a phone call?

A (123:55)

Heavy burden, though. Heavy burden. Heavy burden though seems intense and stressful,

C (123:59)

but it's kind of a cool power fantasy. Wouldn't you like to be able to to. And also she has the luxury, in my opinion, of having an absolute clarity of morality. She's like, this isn't something that is like really? You maybe feel one way, feel another way. She's like, my job is to save humanity from extinction and anything I do toward that goal is worth it, is

B (124:24)

the right thing to do.

A (124:25)

Riola saw Gerrera Lutheran Clarity of purpose vibes here. Highest praise I can give you.

C (124:33)

You can argue with Sol Gerrera's methods.

A (124:35)

You could got some notes with the

B (124:36)

rhino intake if you wanted to. You know,

C (124:41)

you can argue with some of those rebel leaders methods. There is, you know, she was just like put in charge and utilize it. And she herself was even like, yeah, I'm probably going to go to jail as soon as this is over, but I don't mind sacrificing my own well being either. Everything's got to go for.

A (124:58)

You mentioned the morality, the sense of morality that Strat possesses. You mentioned when describing Grace a moment ago, the aspect of bravery and how that's obviously a key part of his journey. That was something that we wanted to ask you about as well. Because I think the realization in the book, in the film, for the reader or viewer, but also for Rylan himself, is this dawning recognition of the experience of his own life is coming back into the. Is an incredibly rich and poignant moment in the story that I think is extremely relatable. Much more relatable to Me to be the person who was too afraid to do the big thing. Right. And Joe and I are Game of Thrones obsessives. We talk a lot about one of our favorite lines from the first novel, a Game of Thrones Branon Ned. Can a man be brave if he's afraid? That is the only time a man can be brave. Right. It's something that we talk about as this, like, heartbeat of a lot of the characters and the stories that we love. And so I'm. You know, then you build toward this moment where Rocky is in peril. I just love Rocky.

B (126:05)

We were talking about this for a while. How stressful that part of the book is.

A (126:08)

Yeah. And so you build so authentically.

C (126:11)

That's good.

A (126:11)

You build so authentically toward this moment when Grace decides to go help his friend. It's so earned. And you understand why he is ready to make a sacrifice that he wasn't ready to make. Right. And I'm curious why it felt important to show us a main character who, in many respects, objectively, is a hero, a savior, the person who is going to ensure that humanity can carry on through the lens of cowardice.

B (126:40)

I just love that.

C (126:42)

Well, yeah, that was the core concept I came up with for his personality. And when you look back at all of his life, you see that his kind of fears and anxieties have driven most of his life decisions. He retreated from academia to the safety of being a middle school teacher. None of his kids are gonna challenge him intellectually.

B (127:06)

Right.

C (127:06)

He gets to be the cool, kind of worshiped cool guy teacher, and that's a comfortable spot for him. And so.

B (127:14)

Yeah.

C (127:14)

And, I mean, that's much more in line with who I kind of empathize with than the fearless hero. I'm the fearful hero. It's funny because when I wrote the book, I thought to myself, I was like, I would never be willing to sacrifice myself to save the world. I'd really want someone to do it. But not me, of course.

B (127:36)

Someone should do this.

C (127:37)

Someone should definitely do this. Someone should. Someone who is not me should do this.

A (127:42)

Happy to show up to some meetings. I love a brainstorm.

B (127:45)

No, bad idea to brainstorm.

C (127:47)

But what's weird is, in the intervening time, my wife and I have had a kid, and so now I have a little boy. He's four years old. And now I'm like, okay, I would die to save the world because he's on it. Right. And so it's kind of strange just the way that parenthood changes you. That's not really the focus of what we're talking about today. But it was just an interesting side note of just how much. How much it's affected me. I'm like, okay, now, if it was, like, me or nothing and I had to die to save the world, well, then I would. Whereas other times, I'd be like, can we talk about this?

B (128:21)

I mean, I love that part of the book, though, where Ryland is thinking about the kids and his class and their future. Even though he doesn't have his own biological kids, that future, his emotional investment in those kids seems so important.

C (128:36)

He cares about his students.

A (128:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (128:39)

I wanted to ask you. So there's a moment in the film. Huge fans of the book.

A (128:43)

We've.

C (128:44)

Did you see. You saw the film?

A (128:45)

We did.

B (128:45)

Yeah, we did see the film. We're huge fans of the book. We read it multiple times. We cried like that.

A (128:51)

Sobbed like a baby.

B (128:52)

Okay, good. She's an easy cry, but, yeah.

C (128:54)

Did you cry?

B (128:55)

I did.

C (128:55)

Okay, good, good.

B (128:56)

I did.

C (128:56)

Good, good, good.

B (128:58)

You got us.

C (128:58)

That's when one thing, like, me and Drew, who wrote the screenplay, and Ryan and everybody was like, did you cry?

A (129:05)

Oh, yeah.

C (129:06)

Stopped reading the book.

A (129:07)

And then Jo, we had the privilege of seeing it together and was, like, looking over at me to make it.

B (129:12)

Yeah. I was watching her, like, clutch her chest, and I would.

A (129:15)

You know, the eyeballs would start glistening. And they did.

B (129:17)

And they did. They did. But there's a moment in the movie that is not in the book that I love, which is Sandra Houler's character, Strat, is singing. And it's this, like, really beautiful moment that I understand was sort of put in because she enjoyed singing around set. That's the story that's going around that Lord and Miller were just like. Ryan and Lord and Miller were like, she likes to sing, so we're gonna

A (129:37)

put it in the movie.

B (129:37)

Maybe that's not true, but I was just curious if there was a moment in the movie that's not in your book that you particularly really enjoyed watching.

C (129:45)

Huh. Okay. So now that means I need to think through the movie in terms of, like, not, you know, comparing to my book and then deleting and re. Sorting. I think I liked the stuff where Ryland, shortly after he wakes up, wakes up and he still doesn't really know what he's supposed to do, and he's, like, dancing around with a mop.

B (130:12)

Yeah.

C (130:14)

So that wasn't in the book. And that was actually just Ryan. Ryan came up with that.

B (130:18)

Oh, really?

C (130:19)

Yeah. He literally went, like, while we were shooting those scenes. He really, literally went and got, like, a mop from the corner of the soundstage and dressed it up. And we called her Moppy Ringwald.

B (130:30)

Sensational. No, no. Incredible.

A (130:32)

Genuinely.

C (130:33)

So that's Moppy Ringwald.

A (130:34)

Rocky.

C (130:36)

Yep.

A (130:37)

One of the great creations in the history of story.

C (130:39)

Oh, thank you.

B (130:39)

I genuinely am a sincere personality, being very sincere.

A (130:43)

I just love Rocky. We love Rocky. A lot of people at the Ringer, our company, love Rocky. Space friendships, chance meetings, surprising connections. You are not only a creator of great stories, but you're a consumer. Right. You're a fan, and you have been for your whole life. So. So are there stories or relationships like duos? These surprising chance meetings on the road, that meant a lot to you when you were a reader or a viewer, that, on some level, however, consciously or not, inspired this bond between Grace and Rocky.

C (131:17)

Maybe. I mean, the only thing I can think of that's a little bit like. It would be, like, Enemy Mine. It's a movie with Dennis Quaid and, I think Louis Gossett Jr. And they're. Louis Gusta Jr. Is an alien and Dennis Quaid. There's, like, a war going on, and they're both pilots, and they shoot each other down, and they both end up stranded on this planet, and then they have to work together, and they become, like, close friends and stuff like that.

A (131:41)

Beautiful.

C (131:42)

So there's that. But, you know, this. I mean, Rocky and Rylan didn't start off antagonistic like those two did.

A (131:49)

Right. So puppet shows, you know, a passion for the arts. Right away, sharing a passion. You love puppets.

B (131:56)

I do love puppets. You love a puppet.

C (131:58)

Yeah. I mean, they had a common cause, and they're both science nerds. I mean, they were sent there for that purpose. So get a couple of nerds together, they'll be like, what can't they solve? Yeah, what can't they solve? And, Yeah, I don't know. I just. Like I said, it goes back to that Pollyanna nature of mine. So there's, you know, Chi Xingu. God help me, I think I probably pronounced it wrong. But the three body problems.

A (132:23)

Yeah.

C (132:24)

You know, he has a different approach. He has, like, the Dark Forest theory. The Dark Forest theory is that you can't trust an alien race because by the time you could even communicate with them, they could also be destroying you at the same time. And that is, you know, kind of a bleak outlook. But I don't necessarily buy into that, because when I started to put together, like, Rocky's Species, I said, like, okay, what are the qualities a life form would need. Need in order to become an intelligent life form. And not just an intelligent life form, but one that can make spacecraft to get to that level of technological development. And I said, what is the bare minimum you need? What do you need? I said, well, first off, they have to be tribal. They have to gather in groups. They can't be like bears who hate each other and stuff like that. They have to have a pack instinct like humans do and mates. Well, not necessarily, but they have to. They have to have a pack instinct where they. Where they gather and cooperate for the greater good of their. Of their tribe or their pack. And the reason for that is there's no way that a single entity could develop everything from rocks to space travel. Right? So they need to be able to work together. They need to be able to specialize. The only way to specialize is if you have this guy's making shoes, that guy is making bread, and so on. Okay? So you need the concept of a society or you're not going to be able to do it. Another thing you need is you need language, absolutely necessary, so you can convey information from one member of the tribe to another. And so that information lives longer than your death. So if you die, the things you learned are passed on to others.

A (134:08)

That's why we podcast.

C (134:09)

Yeah, that's true. You're doing this for humanity.

B (134:14)

Yeah, it's very important.

C (134:15)

Thank you.

B (134:15)

Yeah, you're welcome.

C (134:16)

Thank you for your sacrifice.

B (134:18)

You're welcome.

C (134:19)

Yeah, you're welcome. Anyway, and then the next thing they need is, and I think this is critically important, is compassion and empathy.

A (134:27)

Yes.

C (134:27)

You cannot have a tribe, and you won't see this anywhere on Earth. You can't have a tribe of beings that do not have some form of compassion or empathy or concern for members of their tribe. And that's not just in humans. That's also in wolves and prairie dogs. And everything that gathers together in groups

A (134:51)

dies with a pack, survives the compassion

B (134:53)

of a prairie dog.

C (134:55)

They will cooperate, they'll help each other out, and so you need to have that compassion. So now then, to get into science, stuff like that, you need to have a certain curiosity and a desire to learn. You need to be able to formulate hypothetical scenarios in your mind and then want to find out what happens. So all these things need to be true in any alien that you might ever meet, because otherwise they wouldn't be out in space if any of those things are missing. So you have an entity that already has a concept built in of cooperation, collaboration, language, Pack instinct, empathy. So that, to me means it's more likely that if we ever met an alien, it would be a pleasant affair.

B (135:42)

I love that.

A (135:43)

That's a compelling argument.

B (135:44)

I really love that.

A (135:45)

Me too.

B (135:46)

You've really brightened my worldview, my galaxy view. Honestly.

C (135:49)

Glad I could help.

B (135:51)

I'm curious about, you know, obviously you worked with Drew Goddard before on the Martian. And I'm curious what it is about Dru or what it is about Lord and Miller that you feel like they're the right people to adapt to your work. And what have they said about this book that you're like, they get it. They really get it.

C (136:06)

Well, those are different answers, right. For Drew, it's just. I know, like, he proved with the Martian, he gets me. He understands, like, what I'm going for. We're kind of on the same wavelength, so I know. I felt very confident handing it over to Drew. And when we were so on the Martian, they just gave me money and told me to go away. And that was fine. But on Project Hail Mary, I'm a producer, so I actually had some saying. And we all agreed we wanted Drew to write the screenplay, and he was not available. He was busy working on other projects, and he was going to be busy for months. So we said, we'll wait. So we put this entire extraordinarily expensive project on hold for Drew Goddard just so that we could have Drew be our. We didn't have a number two on our list of screenwriters. We waited for Drew and, like, you know, he nailed it, as always. So that's like, why I wanted. Why we all wanted Dru. Now, as for Lord Miller, they're perfect for it because we have a deuteragonist in this story that is a five legged crab rock spider with no face who speaks in whale song. And it is absolutely critical that the audience love and empathize with this. And everybody knew from top to bottom from the very beginning this movie will live and die on how well we execute Rocky.

B (137:27)

We were nervous, not, like unoptimistic, but we were just like, they gotta get Rocky.

C (137:30)

We have to get Rocky, right? We have to nail it. And Lord and Miller, with their history of animation, they know how to do that. They know how to do it. And it's like, you don't need a face to show emotion. You just need body language. And that's why we had like a crack team of puppeteers. That's the other thing is just for anyone out there listening, this is the vast majority, like, 99.9% of the scenes where you see Rocky, that's a practical effect. That's not cgi. That is a puppet.

A (138:01)

This is huge for you.

B (138:02)

I love puppets.

A (138:03)

I love puppets.

C (138:04)

The only times we ever used CG for Rocky was when it was absolutely impossible to do it with puppeteering. Like, you know, if he's moving around in an area where it's impossible to get puppeteers going or if he's doing something, that's impossible. But it's extremely rare for there to be a CG Rocky. It almost never happens. Almost every time you see him online, that's a puppeteer. There was a crew of six puppeteers who had to be in their ninja outfits, hiding in various places, some of them underneath the set, some of them up in the ceiling, some of them hanging from wires, doing all this stuff. Parts of Rocky were remote controlled with very advanced servos and stuff like that. It was all amazing. We called them the Rocketeers.

A (138:46)

And tough to see someone else living your dream. Really, really hard.

B (138:50)

But also the naming the Moppy Ringwald and the Rocketeers.

C (138:53)

The Rocketeers, yeah.

B (138:54)

Doing a lot of branding on this set. I love it.

C (138:56)

And James Ortiz was the head puppeteer. And now it's been announced that, yeah, we.

B (139:01)

When we originally did the voice as well.

C (139:03)

Yeah, he did the voice of Rocky. When we originally did it, he was doing all the voice. And we thought we'll probably get, like, some really well known performer.

B (139:11)

Meryl Streep.

A (139:11)

Meryl Streep.

C (139:11)

Meryl Streep.

B (139:12)

What a wonderful moment.

C (139:14)

That was actually. Meryl Streep.

A (139:15)

I know.

C (139:16)

Oh, yeah, Great. But we were thinking we'll get some. But then James did such a wonderful performance that we're like, yeah, we're keeping that.

B (139:24)

Oh, that's great.

C (139:26)

But that enables things that, like, people don't realize how much actors are part of the creative process. Actors don't just, like, read the lines and put the appropriate emotion in. They riff. They say, like, they get very, very into the character that they're doing and saying, wouldn't he say something more like this? Or what if he did something more like that? Wouldn't that be more in line with what he's doing? And so there was a lot of back and forth riffing, and you can't do that very well against, like, a tennis ball on a stick. Right. But when there's Rocky right there moving around, like, doing things, doing all the body language, the puppeteers are there. James Ortiz can riff with, you know, in character with Ryan. That's why we got, like, a lot of the magic of their dynamic because it's too real. Actors playing off each other.

B (140:17)

And you couldn't just put a voiceover back in and capture that same magic.

C (140:21)

Well, I mean, we could. We owe it to the dynamic between Ryan and James. That's what I mean, that we did that. But, yeah, we could have shafted James and replaced him with another.

B (140:32)

Oh, you could have, but it wouldn't have been as good. What was the call to Meryl like? How did you get Meryl involved?

C (140:37)

I wasn't involved.

B (140:38)

Okay.

C (140:38)

That was an off the cuff by Ryan. He was just typing through and they were just saying, okay, now imagine. Because we have the things. Now imagine this voice plays, that voice plays. And he's just like, do, do, do. And he's like, meryl Streep, she can play anything. And that was just an off the cuff thing. And we were like, can we get her? Can we get her?

B (140:57)

Are you like Ryan now? You have to make the call for Meryl.

C (141:00)

I think it was like someone in the production. I don't know.

B (141:03)

I love it.

C (141:04)

I mean, I guess she was willing to do it. I mean, it's not like, really hard for her to say one line. And she's pretty chill. I guess she gave us permission. And in the early version, it was just somebody doing a Meryl Streep impression. But then we got the real one.

B (141:21)

I love it.

A (141:22)

I mean, what an honor to show Rocky.

C (141:24)

In this era of AI Doing fairly convincing impersonations of performers, we now have the real Meryl Streep pretending to be an AI Pretending to be Meryl Streep.

B (141:41)

As if an AI could really capture Never. The beauty of never. Yeah, yeah.

A (141:45)

Thinking about the Rocketeers, the puppetry. This is now kind of a.

B (141:49)

It's a great Rocky impression you just did.

C (141:51)

Yes.

A (141:52)

Well, there's something, you know.

B (141:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (141:53)

I liked how they did the Heisman. I can't do it really sitting down, but it definitely did the Heisman. Yeah. It was wonderful stuff. I was going to ask you, though. Now thinking of Raki as a corporeal being and not a cgi insert harder. But still, it's a thought experiment. Let's engage. You can put Rocky in any other fictional universe and see him engage with any other characters that you love. Where are you putting him? Can be from? And you can time travel as well.

B (142:18)

Any.

A (142:19)

Any moment in time in the history of cinema, the history of story, you could do it right now. You could say, let's just put him with Grogu and optimize the Merch outcomes. That would be my pick.

B (142:27)

Okay.

A (142:28)

Throwing it out there, but you can go anywhere. You can go back to films you loved when you were a kid. Anything.

C (142:35)

I mean, I feel like he should be in some sort of science fiction universe.

A (142:38)

Of course.

C (142:39)

Sure. It doesn't necessarily have to be by your rules, but.

A (142:41)

No, no, you can put him in Gladiator.

B (142:43)

A science officer on the Enterprise.

C (142:46)

Yeah, right. He'd fit right in. He'd fit right in on a Starfleet vessel. He'd fit right in in Star Wars.

A (142:53)

I agree. Let's put him with Grogu.

C (142:55)

Put him with Grogu.

A (142:57)

Can you imagine? I mean, the Internet would explode.

C (143:00)

Well, there's a LEGO set that they made and it comes with, like, a little Rocky.

B (143:05)

I'm aware.

C (143:06)

Yeah.

B (143:06)

Have you pre ordered it already?

C (143:07)

I mean, you have to assemble it. What's funny is that LEGO set, aside from custom, like, printing, like, decals that are on the legos, there's no unique. There's no unique LEGO bricks in there. It's all made out of existing. There's no special.

A (143:23)

Jeez. Yeah, I love.

C (143:25)

So Rocky is actually like part of a flower pot for his body. And then like, there's a bunch of.

A (143:32)

This is beautiful. To me, it feels right. Rocky is elemental and a part of everything.

B (143:36)

Yeah.

A (143:36)

That's how I'm gonna look at it.

B (143:38)

I love that. I'm curious as a fan of sci fi, so I love space movies and I love inside of a space movie when they make like, the spaceships dance. You know what I mean? It's just like one of my favorite visuals. And I was curious if there's like, if you have a favorite space movie that is not one of your own, and if there's a trope or an element of a space movie that you're

A (144:00)

like, we gotta do this.

B (144:01)

We gotta make the spaceship dance or

A (144:03)

something like that, you know?

C (144:05)

I don't know. Let's see. My favorite space movies are exactly what you would think they are. They're like Star Trek II or Afcon and the Empire Strikes Back.

A (144:16)

Great movies.

C (144:17)

Yeah. So I am a baby basic. I don't know if you can say I'm sweet. I'm a basic bitch. So am I. Yeah, basic. So am I. I'm a basic bitch when it comes to my sci fi loves. Although my first love is, my first true love above Star Trek and Star wars is Doctor who. That's my.

B (144:38)

I made her watch.

A (144:38)

I watched all of it. All of it. To share it with Joe

B (144:44)

era.

C (144:44)

I knew it. I Knew they were gonna punk it out like that.

A (144:46)

Well, give it.

C (144:47)

I have seen all of it.

B (144:49)

Who's your doctor?

C (144:50)

The fifth doctor. Peter Davis.

B (144:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (144:52)

What about of the new era, so that I can participate in the conversation.

C (144:55)

I mean, gotta be the 10th. Does anybody not like the 10th the most?

A (144:58)

I have, like, a real crush on 12.

B (145:00)

She does love 12, but I've got a real. But you have. You have 10's shoes.

A (145:04)

I do have 10's Converse that you got me. That was a wonderful gift. 10 is my guys. While we like 11, we've got some fondness, some affection for 11. It's a big Matt Smith podcast.

B (145:12)

Davidson. Really snappy dress there.

C (145:14)

Yeah. Very nice look in his cricket outfit.

A (145:17)

Yeah, I went for.

C (145:18)

Yeah. So while we were shooting phm, we were shooting it in at Shepparton Studios, which is just near Richmond, which is a suburb of London. Well, Peter Davison lives in Richmond and so I got to meet him.

A (145:32)

Damn.

C (145:32)

I got to. I just, like, made a. It's like my UK editor's friend is his wife. Whatever. Just some six degrees to Kevin Bacon kind of thing.

B (145:42)

Amazing.

C (145:42)

And six degrees to Peter Davidson. And I'm like, I would love to buy him a drink or something like that. And so he came just to my hotel and we hung out for like an hour chatting. And that was like. So this. That was like. I was just so giddy, you know? So this is me in the middle of a period where I would go have, like a half hour meeting with Ryan Gosling every day, and I'm like,

B (146:05)

I'm gonna meet people now.

A (146:06)

Time for the real highlights. Yeah. So what I'm hearing, We're putting Rocky in Doctor who.

B (146:11)

We're putting Rocky in the tardis.

C (146:12)

Oh, yeah, that would work.

B (146:13)

Rocky could operate all of the levers in the TARDIS at the same time.

C (146:16)

I mean, he's got five arms and the TARDIS has six panels.

B (146:20)

Okay, fair. You know what?

C (146:21)

So fair point.

B (146:22)

Just got stunted on. Yeah, just got stunted on. It's fine, it's fine.

C (146:25)

Well, also, he needs to be in a separate. You know.

A (146:28)

That's right, the bubble.

C (146:29)

Although I'm sure the Doctor could whip up some sort of force field thing that, like.

A (146:32)

No question.

B (146:34)

I love it.

A (146:35)

We're good.

B (146:35)

I think we did it right.

A (146:36)

Fantastic stuff.

B (146:37)

This is wonderful. Incredibly generous. We heard you had it out and I didn't want to hold you.

A (146:44)

I don't want to keep you. We can keep chatting. We're happy to sit. We're not going to hang.

C (146:48)

I'M going to do what my masters tell me to do.

A (146:51)

You're a busy man. You're a busy man.

C (146:52)

I learned that as a rule on any of these press tours, there's like just the nearest woman is the person who will tell you what to do. And that's probably the best.

B (147:01)

I mean, Jillian's the best person ever.

C (147:02)

Jillian is awesome. Jillian's awesome. I'm like, look for the purple. Purple hair.

B (147:06)

Yeah, exactly.

C (147:06)

Look for the purple hair.

B (147:07)

All the purple hair.

C (147:08)

You know, it's like, look for the girl with a crooked smile. You know, look for the girl with the purple hair.

A (147:13)

You solved it.

B (147:14)

She will romantic.

C (147:16)

She's probably in the next room right now.

B (147:19)

Jillian, you rule. All right.

A (147:20)

Best Jillian. Thank you, Andy.

C (147:23)

Well, thank you for having me. It's lots of fun.

B (147:25)

Yeah.

A (147:25)

Blast.

B (147:27)

Okay.

A (147:28)

What a wonderful conversation. We were definitely wearing the exact same clothing.

B (147:31)

My hair absolutely look the same. It's fine.

A (147:33)

I can't remember what your hair looked like when we did that interview. Maybe it did look the same.

B (147:36)

Whoever knows?

A (147:38)

Thank you to Andy Weir for joining us today. Thank you to Rocky, obviously for inspiring us to love and laugh and try to save each other in our worlds.

B (147:49)

Thanks to Jillian.

A (147:50)

Thank you to Jillian.

B (147:52)

Legend, icon Jillian Smith Chang who got handy here.

A (147:57)

Man. Man, she's the best.

B (147:59)

Yep.

A (148:00)

Carlos to Carlos Chiroga ct. CT is with us. Helping out again today.

B (148:05)

Arjun Kapel, Jomy Aden. Anyone else, Rocky, Amaze and puppets. Thank you to puppets most of all. Bye.

A (148:27)

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