‘Spider-Noir’ Season 1 and Mantzoukas Recommends With Jason Mantzoukas!

Summary

House of R: ‘Spider-Noir’ Season 1 and Mantzoukas Recommends With Jason Mantzoukas!

Podcast: House of R (The Ringer)
Date: May 30, 2026
Hosts: Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson
Guest: Jason Mantzoukas

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Episode Overview

This episode welcomes acclaimed comedic actor and podcaster Jason Mantzoukas for the last installment of "Friend of the Pod Month." The main focus is a deep-dive review of Spider-Noir Season 1, with a spirited, candid critique of the series’ strengths, challenges, and standout moments. Jason also brings a round of anime and TV recommendations—anchored by his deep affection for Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End. The crew also touches on fandom, spoilers, the art of performance, and the ongoing evolution of the fantasy/sci-fi landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introductions and Banter (00:06–02:14)

• Joanna and Mallory welcome Jason Mantzoukas as the “closer” of Friend of the Pod Month.
• Jason jokes about disliking sports despite throwing out references.
• Warm rapport and self-deprecating sports banter establish the playful, irreverent tone.

2. Programming & Fan Engagement (03:44–06:12)

• Teasers for upcoming House of R content, summer hype meters, and behind-the-scenes details (“our innocence is preserved in amber” re: pre-recorded drafts — Joanna, 04:22).
• Joking relitigation of past podcast drafts, highlighting the community aspect of fandom.

3. Star Wars Deep Dive (06:12–10:32)

• Lively discussion on drafting Star Wars characters and memorable duos.
• Jason’s take: "The Skywalkers are the baby boomers. It’s time to go. Time to die. It’s over. You had your moment." (09:07)
• Universally shared desire for more self-contained stories outside the Skywalker saga.

4. Fandom Tastes & Unfiltered Opinions (10:40–16:20)

• Mailbags, drafts, spoilers, and the evolution of TV/film spoiler culture.
• All three hosts express being mostly unbothered by spoilers. (“Oh yeah. They're cautious babies.” — Jason, 15:25)

5. Transition to Spider-Noir (16:20–17:17)

• Setting the table for a Spider-Noir Season 1 review.
• Jason, Mallory, and Joanna admit little background with the character apart from the Spider-verse movies. All cite Nicolas Cage’s indefinable energy as a major draw.

6. Spider-Noir Season 1: In-Depth Review

Character & Performance (17:25–24:35)

• All hosts’ primary exposure: Spider-Verse films, and especially, Nic Cage’s performance.
• Jason: “Cage is maybe… pound for pound, one of the most interesting, most bizarre, most captivating actors that we have.” (17:50)

Series Strengths & Weaknesses (24:08–28:20)

• General Reaction: Entertaining but narratively uneven and perhaps overextended.
• Jason: “Somehow… too much going on and also not enough, for me to do eight one hour episodes… Should have been a movie.” (24:08)
• Joanna: Praises the cast—Brendan Gleeson, Lucas Haas, Lee Jun Lee, Lamorne Morris—but notes that pacing and focus drift in the back half.
• Lamorne Morris (“Robbie Robertson”) and Janet Ruiz noted as standouts with best “case of the week” and group dynamics.

Tone, Style, & Visuals (28:20–37:33)

• Nic Cage’s unpredictable, occasionally leashless performance is both asset and liability.
• Lack of tonal control: When Cage and Megawatt are both on screen, it can feel like “comic book energy at 100,” but this isn’t always matched by the rest of the cast.
• Praise for the black-and-white presentation—unanimous agreement that this is the show’s visual sweet spot. “Black and white really covered for a lot of stuff…” (34:23)
• Frustration at the availability of a color version: “It is against the entire ethos of the character.” — Jason (36:13)

Plot & Structure Critique (37:33–54:17)

• Overstuffed with flashbacks, yet underdeveloped in story clarity and emotional stakes.
• Sinister Six component and Nazi war trauma origins—difficult to follow and sometimes derivative of other superhero fare (“a little Bucky/Hydra…”).
• Flashbacks muddle character ages and diminish stakes.
• Lack of a compelling singular villain arc; mayoral plotline is underbaked and hard to care about.
• “There's so much going on, but I'm not really invested in any of it. Nor… clear who they want me [to root for].” — Jason (32:04)

Humor & Standout Moments (54:17–71:03)

• Favorite comedic moments:
  • Cage’s “happy” Ben Reilly, singing “I love cheesecake in the morning, with you.” (69:12)
  • The montage of Ben drunkenly revealing he’s Spider-Man to Janet multiple times (57:13)
  • Bar fight one-shot, “drunk Cage” acting, and spider-powers as bodily comedy.
  • Megawatt’s mispronunciation of “grandeur” as “grandior.” (64:12)
• Jason: “Crickety Crackity was every work for me, every single time. And I was like, oh, I wish there was 30% more weird David Lynchy stuff going on.” (42:24)
• There’s a consistent desire for the show to let loose and lean into its own weirdness.

Emotional Impact & Missed Opportunities (73:04–76:42)

• Emotional beats (e.g., Ruby’s death, Ben’s grief) mostly fall flat—critiqued as generic or unearned.
• Jason: "For a young person to be struggling—this is Peter Parker’s struggle… For a 60-something to be saying words that make more sense from a young person..." (77:19)

Supporting Cast & Villains (58:01–62:35)

• Praise for Lamorne Morris and the dynamic with Janet and Frankie.
• Villain design (especially in black & white) is highlighted, but characterization lacks depth—Flint, Cat, and Silvermane are muddled.

Visual Effects & “Case of the Week” Format (82:24–83:49)

• Some visual effects, especially the swinging Spider-Man double, are called out as weak—likely a budget issue versus film versions.

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7. Mantzoukas Recommends: Anime & More (86:07–112:09)

Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End (86:07–102:24)

• Jason’s passionate pitch for Frieren as “balm… for my life.”
  • Explores themes of grief, memory, time, and found family.
  • Praised for structure—“the end is the beginning” as a post-quest reflection (“Lord of the Rings ends, then what?”).
  • “It scratches that itch to me that Great British Bake Off does… It feels wonderfully cozy.” (91:21)
• Deep, moving discussion about the nature of love, regret, and grief through the show’s lens. Mallory: “So much of life is a journey toward gratitude and appreciation.” (98:25)
• Joanna: “As she revisits and understands him better and thinks about it more and views him from a different perspective, she’s like, ‘Oh, this person was so much more important to me than I appreciated at the time…’” (103:03)

The Apothecary Diaries (104:09–111:22)

• Rishikesh Hirway’s description (as relayed by Jason): “An upstairs, downstairs House MD set in feudal China. Jane Austen. Will they, won’t they? But also a medical mystery procedural.” (105:10)
• Mallory and Joanna both start the show based on Jason’s rec. Strong case-of-the-week world-building; quickly builds to bigger arcs.

Delicious in Dungeon & Ascendance of a Bookworm

• Delicious in Dungeon: Dungeon-crawl cooking show—a unique culinary adventure.
• Ascendance of a Bookworm: A former librarian reborn in a world without books—immediately has the title crowd hooked.

Primal (Genndy Tartakovsky)

• “Maybe the single best masterpiece of visual storytelling because there is no dialogue…”—pure visual narrative.

Notable Quotes

• “Are you a sub guy or a dub guy?” (110:21)
  • Jason watches subtitles first, then dubs on rewatches (for shows with rich storytelling).
• “I'm a 53-year-old man who has a Crunchyroll subscription and no children, which is a lie I checked.” (86:07)

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8. Quickfire Recommendations & Pop Culture Corner (115:07–133:44)

Taskmaster (UK)

• Jason dishes on his time as a contestant—strategies, chaos, favorite seasons (start with S19!).
• Joanna and Jason revel in their love of the UK comedy panel show, waxing about the beauty of its format.

Other TV: Bookish, Dark Winds, Wonder Man, and more

• Bookish (Mark Gatiss), Dark Winds (Zahn McClarnon), Wonder Man (Marvel), Man on Fire (Yahya Abdul-Mateen II).
• Candid industry tales: Jason failed his Rings of Power dialect audition—cheerfully admits defeat.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Spider-Noir’s tonal whiplash:
  “If everyone is Megawatt, everyone is in the right movie.” — Joanna (43:06)

• On the endless Skywalker saga:
  “The Skywalkers are the baby boomers. It’s time to go. Time to die. It’s over. You had your moment.” — Jason (09:07)

• On spoilers:
  “Oh yeah. They're cautious babies.” — Jason (15:25)

• On Cage:
  “All I want is for Ben Mankiewicz to try and corral Nic Cage [on TCM].” — Jason (41:07)

• On anime’s emotional power:
  “So much of life is a journey toward gratitude and appreciation.” — Mallory (98:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening banter & sports talk — 00:06–01:38
• Friend of the Pod wrap-up, meta pod-talk — 01:31–03:44
• Star Wars draft & Skywalker fatigue — 06:12–10:32
• Spider-Noir discourse begins — 16:47
• Season 1 overall take — 24:08–28:20
• Black-and-white vs. color debate — 33:49–37:33
• Spoilers and adaptation talk — 15:14–16:21
• Best moments & visual gags — 54:17–71:03
• Villains & supporting cast — 58:01–62:35
• Anime recommendations with in-depth Frieren chat — 86:07–112:09
• Taskmaster & UK panel show lovefest — 115:07–125:34

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

• Warm, chaotic, and deeply nerdy. There’s a relentless commitment to joyfully interrogating and occasionally dismantling beloved genre storytelling.
• Spider-Noir is fun but flawed—bolstered by Cage’s unhinged performance and dynamic side characters, let down by a baggy, unfocused plot and confused tone.
• Anime as comfort: Jason’s recommendations, especially Frieren, become a surprisingly profound meditation on time, loss, and the value of memory.
• The House of R team remains committed to bringing friends, laughter, and deeply-considered cultural analysis to genre fandom every week.

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Quick Reference (for listeners pressed for time):

• Spider-Noir worth binging for Cage, Lamorne Morris, visual style—lower your expectations on plot and pacing.
• Watch Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End immediately.
• Color Spider-Noir: “Preposterous, against the ethos.” (36:13)
• Taskmaster S19—start here for maximum Mantzoukas.
• Expect more Spider-Verse, Hot D, and speculative fiction explorations from this crew next week and beyond.

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[Closing stinger: “Soft, supple straw.” (135:10)]

Transcript

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Foreign.

[Mallory Rubin]

And welcome to House of R. A Ringer Verse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. She's Joanna Robinson. And Friend of the Pod Month would not have been complete without Jason fucking Mantzoukas.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Let's go. I'm setting the tone. We're getting this done. SH Style.

[Mallory Rubin]

SH reference. Right away. I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would you say he's the friend of the pod? This is our last Friend of the Pod Month episode.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, am I the last. Oh, wow. What an honor.

[Mallory Rubin]

Last guest in the history of the podcast. Unless something goes really wrong today, which, like, I rule it out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Inaugural Friend of the Pod Month.

[Mallory Rubin]

You are.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm honored to crowning achievement. To please be batting cleanup.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To do a sports reference.

[Mallory Rubin]

We both made a baseball reference.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Did I do it right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I went with closer, which I think is slightly more appropriate.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's also acceptable. What?

[Joanna Robinson]

The promise is that you don't care for sports.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I hate sports.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what I mean? Here's my deal. Where's my kid?

[Mallory Rubin]

Right there.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right there. I hate sports.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're all yours.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not interested. Ringer.com.

[Mallory Rubin]

yeah, well, you've mentioned a hockey show and you've made a batting cleanup reference.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

God damn it. I fucked it up already.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait to see how you incorporate the NBA Finals into the discussion today.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Are they happening right now? And I don't know. I couldn't tell you which teams are in the NBA Finals if it's happening.

[Mallory Rubin]

You guys have enough Knicks fans in your life.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The Knicks. Oh, I know. The Knicks are a thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oklahoma Is City Thunder.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wow.

[Mallory Rubin]

What do you do?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They're doing. Don't. Don't. Joanna. Don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know you're a Spurs.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Do not become because of Wemb.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because Wemby is a fantasy literature nerd. So the spurs are a part of your life because of Wemby.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do know that Wemby showed up to a game wearing a garment last night.

[Mallory Rubin]

He did.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's all I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

He sits down in the locker room. He reads like Brandon Brando. Sando. Brandon Sanderson.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wow.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're going to talk about all that. We're going to talk about season one of Spider Noir. We're going to talk a little frieren. You're going to recommend some other anime to us that you think we should check out? Honestly, I don't really know what we're going to talk about today.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Come up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anyway.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm a 53 year old man with a Crunchyroll subscription. I have no children and things are going great.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're home. This is where you belong.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm thrilled to be here.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait to get into it. We will do that right after this.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Do do do do Doogey doogie doo doo doo.

[Mallory Rubin]

This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Call it all trainers. The Pokemon in target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here and the lineup is kind of incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

A few are sure to be fan faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles, and even caboodles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which feels perfect because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure. And Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit.

[Joanna Robinson]

The first drop is in store May 2 online May 3 with the second drop June 6. Explore [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Weathertech.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need Weathertech floor liners in the summer. Unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those Weathertech seat protectors. So, just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need Weathertech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today.

[Mallory Rubin]

Programming remote reminders. Yeah, quick ones. What's coming next week? 2026 Summer Hype Meter, which, let's just say it quickly, take people behind the curtain here. I'm going to be in Sweden next week. I will not be in the country. We thus recorded the 2026 Summer Hype Meter. Not a day early, not half a day early.

[Joanna Robinson]

Days ago.

[Mallory Rubin]

A full week early. Multiple trailers have been released since we recorded it, which we know it is already quite stale. There are illusions on the podcast like, hey, they're probably going to drop a House of the Dragon Season 3 trailer, aren't they? Hey, we'll probably lear About X Men 97 Season 2, won't we?

[Joanna Robinson]

Guess what?

[Mallory Rubin]

All of that happened.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't worry about it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the order remains the same.

[Joanna Robinson]

Our innocence is preserved in amber.

[Mallory Rubin]

There you go.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Was there any kind of. Well, Mal, I'll just ask. How well behaved were you in the hype draft?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I'd say that I've mellowed in my old age. Oh, I think, Yeah, I think that I, you know, I.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You didn't go after anybody or take it personally.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, this is the meter.

[Mallory Rubin]

The meter is Calm in the hype draft. I think I was pretty well behaved this year. On the big pick Star wars draft recently, I was well behaved for, I'd say, 80% of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And then when I was at any of the clips, I was. When I was not allowed at the

[Jason Mantzoukas]

end to select, I was not allowed at the end is a real issue,

[Mallory Rubin]

which is, like, ludicrous. And then it really.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Rapio is not a sky. Wait, of course he is. What?

[Mallory Rubin]

Of course he is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What are we talking about? You tried to draft 3PO, R2D2. Absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I tried to do R2 and 3PO both, and then I tried to make the case for both. Then I tried to do Midi Chlorians as Anakin's father. And. And then I actually had to take shmee. It was a whole thing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You took Shmee?

[Joanna Robinson]

I had no choice.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had waited till the last round. Oh, God, let me throw this one nugget at you.

[Joanna Robinson]

How many of our podcasts are we gonna spend relitigating all of them?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Did anybody get Cobb Vanth?

[Mallory Rubin]

Uh, well, it's funny you should mention that, because then Joanna and Damon Lindelof and I did on our Mando Grogu primer, a mini draft, a duo Star wars duo's draft. And three PO and R2 were just waiting for me in the fourth round, but I didn't take them, I think because of ptsd.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, that's.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then ended up at the very drafter got them. I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something happened.

[Mallory Rubin]

TikTok Band and Cad Bane, which it

[Joanna Robinson]

really all went to. And C3PO and then won the vote.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had won four drafts in a row across podcast.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, but you're not keeping track.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I lost a couple in a row, and I think it's good. It's good for.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, you think it's good to be humbled.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's good for me to, you know, to stay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stay in tune with my limitations. You were very cool about me winning that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think you crushed it. You crushed it. You crushed it. It's easier to lose by, like, 70%, which is what happened, than what I have a hard time with is if I lose by like, 2% and I then. Actually, though, I did tell you I couldn't sleep for two nights after the draft, which was true.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Why?

[Joanna Robinson]

She's doing fine. She's doing fine.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What were you. What were you. Because of the 3PO?

[Joanna Robinson]

Because I took R2 and C3PO out.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had taken Heron and Kenan as my love interest, which I Had to pick. I love that you were not going to do that.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was not going to do that.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so they would have made it back to me on the tournament.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wait a minute. You took them as your love pick instead of the Duchess Satine and Obi Wan?

[Mallory Rubin]

Obi was off the board because I had taken him and Anakin and it was all. But just. It had all gotten away from me.

[Joanna Robinson]

I got Han and Leia in the first round and then it was just

[Mallory Rubin]

kind of over for me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's pretty good. Honestly, that's pretty good. But I do think Kanan and Hera is dynamite. No.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a great, thrilling.

[Mallory Rubin]

They would have been there for me at the end. Instead I had to pick Cad being

[Jason Mantzoukas]

a comeback at the end as a romantic couple. By the way, we all want it.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're shipping that Vance with anything, honestly.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, their. Their first meeting was very flirtatious.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's some crackling energy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh yeah. I think it's electric.

[Joanna Robinson]

Who, who doesn't love a slow saunter out of the distance?

[Mallory Rubin]

A healing fuck in the bacta tank. Why not?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah. When Cadbain, and I'm going to say

[Joanna Robinson]

this like fucking in a hot tub, but it's bad.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's bad for you. You get a bunch of chlorine up in there.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're going to.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You're definitely going to need antibiotics afterwards.

[Mallory Rubin]

But you're in a bacta tank. So it's all healing in real time. It's almost like getting stabbed by a lightsaber. It's cauterizing, you know, the damage and the healing all at once.

[Joanna Robinson]

When Ken's review is getting fucked in the back to tank, why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

I would try it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would try the light to have the lightsaber.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I would try it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Anything. Once.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I would try it at least once. I'm so glad you're on the record. Yeah, that's the pull quote. Would try it fucking in the back to tank at least once.

[Joanna Robinson]

If the bacta tank is rocking, don't come and knock it. Or sloshing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When Cobb Vanth showed up in that episode. Not rather. Rather when Cad Bane showed up in that episode to gunsling with Cobb Vanth. When Kevin was walking down in live action, I stood up and started screaming.

[Mallory Rubin]

You clapped. You cried?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I cried. I was like, it's Kevin. It's Kevin again. I'm at that point a 50 year old man alone in my house screaming, I'm doing great. Yeah, boy. I wish we could have been on to talk about Maul. I Loved the pods about Mal. I loved Maul.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was so good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It was great. It was so great to be back with him. I loved all the cast of characters around it. I know we're not here to talk about male, we're here to talk about spider New. But I fucking loved Maul because all I want is smaller, self contained stories inside this world.

[Joanna Robinson]

Get the Skywalkers out of there, man.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Get these fuckers out of here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Get them out of the canon and out of the drafts.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The Skywalkers. Here's my larger hit us. The Skywalkers are the baby boomers. It's time to go.

[Mallory Rubin]

Time to die.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's time to go. It's over. You had your moment. We're done with you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Move on.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are you going to Gen X? Are you going to like, is it Gen Alpha's time in Star Wars?

[Joanna Robinson]

Gen X simply does not want to be involved.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Nope. As a proud member of Gen X, I'm shocked I'm even here.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll have you back for mall season two.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, but I would love it. Please.

[Mallory Rubin]

We can't wait for that show.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I would love nothing more.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you think that Spy Bot lives on in the clouds?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. Yeah, okay. That was Sam Weber kind of told us as much.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Doesn't Spy Bot remind you of the assassin who wore the hat that looked like Spy Bot?

[Mallory Rubin]

What was that guy's name in Justin? Mando Grogu. Yeah, Embold with the shank looks like his hat looks like a shield.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And that guy was going to show up as Spybot's like operator or some version of that.

[Joanna Robinson]

You haven't seen Mandalorian and Grogu yet?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I have not seen Mandalorian and Grogu yet.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you claim.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, and I am being honest. I would tell you I anticipate not liking it in all honesty. Or I anticipate having something that you

[Mallory Rubin]

like and you'll have notes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I anticipate having a struggle with it, but I also don't think it's for me. Here's the thing. The stuff that I don't like about Star wars and I love all Star wars, boy, am I so happy we're still in these stories. It's not for me. But what I love, I love and when it fails me and Mal's for you. Mal. Dynamite. Loved every goddamn minute of it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, fantastic. Same, same. Can't wait for season two. I love Star wars animation.

[Joanna Robinson]

What else is coming up?

[Mallory Rubin]

Hype meter is Tuesday, I think. And then you will be doing at the end of the Week. A Lestat primer with some friends.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fictional bands. Fictional bands.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yep. Love this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rishi Hirway, Jess McKenna are coming to talk about fictional bands.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I love this because that's. And I'm gonna have a callback for that in a little bit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, look at you. Are you an interview with the Vampire Watcher?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I am not an interview with the Vampire Watcher, but you have gotten me so close so many times that I do feel like there's gonna come a moment when I don't have something that's one of my shows and I'm gonna be like, oh, yeah, this. And I'm gonna be obsessed with. I can. The way you talk about it. I know I'm gonna like it. You know, I just gotta get into it.

[Mallory Rubin]

I watched the first two seasons for Jo for Gift Swaps and made her watch Landman and Fire and Ash in exchange.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Avatar.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Welcome. Welcome to. I'm out on Avatar. But boy, I'm all in on Landman

[Joanna Robinson]

even after season two.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Especially because of season two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Did you watch season two? Are you aware that Billy Bob's character fucks an omelet at one point?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Are you? And are you aware.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very noise.

[Joanna Robinson]

How literally are we talking about?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, sticks a stick in an hour.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. It is pretty clear.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't like to completion.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No. Yeah. And we don't watch him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pleasure.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. No. Kind of to make a point.

[Joanna Robinson]

To make a point to, like, stunt on someone. Like, I put my dick in your omelet.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was his omelet.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It was his omelet. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Landman.

[Joanna Robinson]

Landman.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To even try and explain it, you're like, wow, they really did it. They really did a thing. And I would say if Landman season three doesn't feature Billy Bob in the car, rolling calls more, I'll be furious.

[Mallory Rubin]

And they all have.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Because that's what 80% of season two is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did we go to Michael's this season? Drunkenly go to Michael's, which is my favorite part, as you know of season one, when Ally Larder got drunk on

[Mallory Rubin]

Margarita and went to get Michael's product placement for Michaels.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, they didn't. But where did they go? They did go someplace to do something with the old people. Again.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was it because strip club was also seasonal?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. They love the old people's storyline. And Landman is so nuts.

[Mallory Rubin]

A lot of the old people person focus of Landman, though, it shifted not only to the home front.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

But to the pool in the backyard.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. Sam Elliott getting like aqua therapy held by cradled. Yes. Cradled by a woman in the pool

[Mallory Rubin]

who Billy Bob had found.

[Joanna Robinson]

I regret to inform you I'm back in.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You're back in at night club.

[Mallory Rubin]

Welcome.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And the pool water is warm.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mustache, look in the Great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. Resplendent. And he spends most of the season watching the sun.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

The worst mistake they made in Justified is when Sam Elliott showed up without the mustache. And you're like, what's the point?

[Mallory Rubin]

I quite agree. But you can't shave the mustache.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can.

[Mallory Rubin]

So you're going to do the Lestat pad. Then we are going to have a disclosure day pod, and then it's just basically House of the Dragon time. After that, we'll have a couple other things. But we are not Lestat premiere. Of course, we're not far away from Hot D, season three. You excited?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not really.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, boy.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what we're hearing. That's the word on the street. On the street.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right. Did you watch the trailer today?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. I'm wondering if there will be an uptick in hype from today's trailer.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did Night of the Seven Kingdoms make you more hype or less hype?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Less hype because I enjoyed it so much for the simplicity of its storytelling. That, again, kind of like what I'm talking about with Star wars inside of. And I'm not a Game of Thrones reader, to be clear, so I am. I exclusively understand it through the shows. And Night of the Seven Kingdoms just crushed it. And then I went and listened to the audiobook of all of the novellas, which were dynamite and made me so excited for the rest of it. House of the Dragon is so sprawling and so big, and it just hasn't hooked me in the same way. I'll watch it. I'll get around to watching it, but I will not be like, oh, it's on good. Boom every Sunday night, or whatever. You know, Like, I'm. I don't think it's going to be dominant.

[Mallory Rubin]

Damn it.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll see.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm holding on.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I feel the same about Lord of the Rings.

[Joanna Robinson]

Rings of Power.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Rings of Power, rather. Both of them have just lost me enough that it isn't like, week to week. I'm kept up. In other words, you know, I'll do it, but it's. They're not like, ooh, I got to. I got to go.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have to start potting about Landman so that Manzukas keeps listening to.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're not going to listen to us, by the way.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I still listen. I'm listening to you guys talk about. You guys are spoiling shows that I'm then watching weeks later. But I don't care.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I also don't care about spoilers.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean it must be hard in your.

[Joanna Robinson]

Your.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm not a. It's not. I don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're an actor.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. What's the point in the industry, it's. What do we. We're allowed to hear. Part of the reason I used to like watching stuff was because I would hear people describe it or I would read a review that described it or whatever. Like I should be allowed to know what happens in these things.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just don't understand. Like for those of us who love to like read the book and then watch the thing that's based on the book that's essentially like it. It doesn't change it for me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh no.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean me neither. I think a lot of listeners feel differently about it.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I'm always.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh yeah. They're cautious babies.

[Joanna Robinson]

Spoiler warning.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spoiler warning for today. All of Spider Noir season one because this dropped as a binge on MGM and then Amazon. So this is on Prime Video on Amazon.

[Joanna Robinson]

The whole first season is on a real platform that exists.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Mgm.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, mgm.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I've got it. Don't worry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Two days before.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, don't worry. I've got it for Sas. Rogue heroes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

One of my all time favorite Stephen Knight shows.

[Mallory Rubin]

You guys in CR love Rogue Heroes. I know that about all three of them have not seen the show.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, the best.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've not seen the show.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, he was in the binge miss movie that I watched to do a Binge miss.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jody. Tom. Glen Carney. Your guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's a good grill.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's really good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. It's a great cast and it. The show is a blast.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe there will be rogue hero spoilers today. There will definitely be Spider noir spoilers because the entire season is fair game for our discussion today. Later today we're going to talk about frieren.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So like I think that that because we have not finished the spoilers will be a little lighter there. Oh sure. Will be more like premise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's what I'll say. And this is just true of anime.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

They tell you the whole thing in the opening song.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Opening credits song is always like here's the story we're about to tell you.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's banger that opening credits.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Always. And every season it changes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. So we're going to Talk about all of that today. What else might we spoil? What do you think?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I suspect we'll talk about the Spider Verse movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So those will. I'm sure, all of Spider Man's. All of Spider man comics.

[Mallory Rubin]

Canon.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Comics. Canon. Although I looked into Spider man or Spider Noir comics, there weren't a ton, and I didn't dig too deep. Me neither, if I'm being honest.

[Joanna Robinson]

So no Spider Noir comics.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, you don't have to worry about

[Mallory Rubin]

any comics kind of things.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Sadly, I would have loved something that had a heavier comics lift to just to talk comics, but. But I didn't find much that was super compelling.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, let's get to it. Let's swing into Spider Noir season one. What is your history with this character? Jason, let's start with you.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So it is simply from the Spider Verse movies. Truly, this was my introduction, as I suspect it was for all of us, you know, or for most. And loved it. Loved the. What a great character establishment in that first movie to all of the characters to be introduced to that group of characters and then have one of them be not just a noir black and white, all the archetypes and tropes of a noir story, but have it be voiced by Nic Cage, who is maybe for me, pound for pound, one of the most interesting, most bizarre, most captivating actors that we have. You know. You know, I do a podcast called how did this get made? And for 15 years, we've been covering terrible movies that are so bad you have to watch them. And when I tell you we've done probably 20 Nicolas Cage movies, there was

[Joanna Robinson]

that run of time where he was trying to pay off his massive debt, where he did like five VOD movies

[Jason Mantzoukas]

a year, and we covered a lot of them. Season of the Witch, we're talking the Wicker man, although that's not exactly just for money, but, you know, there's a ton of.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's a ton you've never heard of that Nic Cage did. Um, speaking of, can I. Can I tell my origin story with. With Jason, of course.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yes. We've never potted before.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's never potted before. The three of us have potted before.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was working at Vanity Fair, and I got a pitch to talk to Jason Manzoukas, who is one of my favorite podcasters. Cause I was an absolute. How did this get made? Obsessive and. But, like, you're trying to be a professional journalist, right? So Jason gets on the line, and I'm just interviewing him about the project that he was working On. And I didn't say anything about being a fan of yours. Cause I was trying to be, like, cool and professional. Meanwhile, I'm like, internally freaking out. And then right towards the end, Jason's like, I just want to let you know, Joanne, I listened to your podcast and I was like, I listened to your podcast and he was like, too late. I said it first. Now it just sounds like you're saying it because I said it. And I was like, God damn it. Anyway, so that's the first time I talked to you.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And that was your. The first time, I think I heard you was the Dave Chen cast of Kings podcast that I listened to all the time. Yeah. During that era.

[Joanna Robinson]

Years ago.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Many years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then I think. And then we met at ATX Festival

[Joanna Robinson]

because I was moderating that league panel. Yeah, yeah. And then you're like, can I hug you? And I was like, yes. Anyway.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Really great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Really, you are.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And here we are podcasting together.

[Joanna Robinson]

It only about spider noir.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. It only took another 12 years, probably.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thanks.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To get us here.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thanks.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Thank you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Nicolas Cage.

[Mallory Rubin]

What can't that man do?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Uh, I mean, quite a bit, actually.

[Mallory Rubin]

Matt lighting him up today.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And I think we found some of the limitations maybe.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we might have. Do you feel like in the scene inside of the show, when he is in the movie theater eating a hot dog watching James Cagney. Do you. And, like, just muttering the lines back, which we later find out is how he learned how to be human again after being bitten by man spider or whatever it was.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you feel like that's just documentary footage of Nic Cage of the movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Entire film.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm certain he made them do the whole. Made him make sure we're watching this scene. He is. So there's a great. It might be Vanity Fair. It might be one of the magazines that does the. You know, an actor breaks down their roles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And he did one. This is some years ago. But. And he's going through. And what's wonderful about Nicholas Cage is like, he's such a chaotic and crazy and unpredictable actor in all of the best ways and frankly, all of the worst ways. But to hear him talk about his process for so many of these bananas characters, you are like, oh, there is not just a method to his madness, but there is madness to his method. You know, like, it is fascinating to watch. I very much think people should watch it just to get insights into the fact that he's talking about, like, you know, whatever movie crazy Dumb, you know, gone in 60 seconds or con Air. But he's like, talking about Brett.

[Mallory Rubin]

Couple classics, you know what I mean?

[Joanna Robinson]

It could happen to you. And he's like, well, it's like, what

[Mallory Rubin]

was the quote he had that was making its way around about. About this? I think it was from the Esquire feature. And he was like, 70. It's 70% Humphrey Bogart, 30% Bugs Bunny.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. That's great.

[Mallory Rubin]

I believe was.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, it's in there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not to say, like, cite multiple interviews I did when I worked at vf, But I one time I did interview Nicolas Cage about some terrible VOD movie that he made that no one saw. And I was asked, because I'm me. I was asking him about comic books, but I think he thought because he was talking to someone at Vanity Fair that I was, like, making fun of him for comic books, which of course I would never. I was genuinely curious to talk to him about comic books. And he's like, I'm not. I'm not just sitting here with my tray of lemon cookies and my glass of milk reading comic books all the time. And I was just like, first of all, I am.

[Mallory Rubin]

That sounds great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was like, that's so specific. So you certainly are. Like, you definitely are. But also, that was not an insult to ask you about comic book.

[Mallory Rubin]

What an astronaut.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kal El, Like, I know this about you, and I think it's cool and weird, but, like, yeah. He was like, I'm not sitting here with my tray of lemon cookies. And I was like, well, we should all be sitting here with our trays.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, I wish there was a tray of lemon cookies right now.

[Mallory Rubin]

I agree. He's a lemon cookies guy. Sansa's a lemon cakes girl. It's amazing how much lemon based zesty baked goods come up here on this podcast. Two, twice. Can you think of any others?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We'll put one in here.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll think of one by the end of the day.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think the comedy rule of three.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Joe, same for you. Spider Verse. Any other history with spider noir as a character? Spider Verse movies. Yeah, same. And I think we all like. It was such a. I mean, the Spider Verse films in general, obviously, just wonderful. We adore the two that we've gotten so far. Can't wait for the third. I think that even by the standard of loving the first movie, spider noir like, really popped for people.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I feel like, yeah, especially. I mean, it's so fun to play with those tropes. It's so fun to Be inside of when he's not in like in the. We'll talk about it in this show, but especially in that movie, in those two movies, it's a blast to have like a hard boiled, you know, detective roaming around and he's perfect for it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And the idea in the Spider verse films of like this mashup of fully realized, utterly specific, unapologetic comics energy where you get this like tapestry of all these different figures who are there to be for 30 seconds, 75 seconds, whatever it is, the most diluted, distilled version of that comics character. And then it's like, well, that was super fun. What will it be like over eight episodes of a standalone series built around this character? Right. That's the question. So I remember when this was announced, I was like very hyped, Genuinely very hyped.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lot of questions.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which I think was where we all were for a little while. Opening snapshot. Overall take here. How did you actually find season one of Spider Noir boy?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So speaking of Bugs Bunny, I found it. It's a tough one for me because there's a lot of stuff that I really liked and really enjoyed. For me, I will say it's a little bit of. There is simultaneously somehow I made a note in here. Too much going on and also not enough for me to do eight one hour episodes. You know, I mean like, I think

[Joanna Robinson]

it should have been a great movie.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It should have been a movie and. Or a series of episodes that added up to movie length.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what I mean? Like it should have been shorter and told a1.1 thrust of a story.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There was too much going on, too many things. And it was also not enough of an understanding of what story I was being told. So I was getting lost and. And then I didn't get back into it and enjoy it. And there was, I think, great set pieces. There was a lot of incredibly fun stuff, great performances. I really enjoyed it. But it wore out its welcome a little bit. And I'd say the second half I found myself checking my phone a little bit or not as invested, I'll say. And I watched it, I should say as a binge. I watched it all at once within 48 hours. Yeah, you know, I watched the whole thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I did the same and I feel like it was like perhaps the back half wouldn't have felt so tedious to me to a certain degree if it had felt fresher. And I wasn't like four hours into my experience already. I think the cast is incredible. Like to get Brennan Gleeson here, just, like, doubling it up. Like, incredible. I was spoilers, right? I was excited and then sad because I was like, lucas Haas finally gets to do something so cool. And then he was gone. Jack Houston is addicted to us. Not seeing his beautiful face all the time. Boardwalk Empire surprised me. I know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Very similar, kind of, you know, or an external for the role.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Lee Jun Lee has been like, loved. Loved her in Babylon. Loved her in Sinners. Like, she's on a real role in terms of stuff. So, like, look at, like, Amy Aquino here. Like, absolute stage legend here for an episode or two to play the doctor. So, like, just an incredible Morris.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, like,

[Joanna Robinson]

Lamorne is the show for me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's great. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the show I kind of am more curious about, you know?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Lamort, like, however tired I got at the end, I was always invested in what Lamorne's character, like, what Joe. Robbie Robertson was doing. And also Janet Ruiz.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Terrific.

[Joanna Robinson]

Robbie and Janet, like, kind of were the show for me. Nick Cage is so fun. And then I feel like, towards the back half, or I was just a little tired, it felt like any leash came off of him. Do you know what I mean?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I feel like he needs that leash on him in order for us to enjoy.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's the thing I love, because I

[Jason Mantzoukas]

will say if he. Without those moments of true bananas. Nick.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, no, no.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think I might have liked it even less.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no, no.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I think the physical, like, when he's, like, doing his spider shit, it's incredible. When he's doing his spider shit, I loved that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, my God. It feels. That's. You know what? And I wonder what you guys think about this. I kept being like, ooh, Especially in those moments or in the moment where he, in the flashback when he's, like, finds out the webbing is coming from his body and all that body horror stuff, I was like, ooh, I wish this. I wish they'd given Sam Raimi this. I wish Sam Raimi had been in charge of this property and this Spider man, because, boy, would that be interesting. Because I think Raimi especially, too, loves this era of filmmaking. Loves. This is. This is Sam Raimi. Like, when he's with the Coen brothers era, Sam Raimi, you know what I mean? There's a lot of this movie that has Miller's Crossing mapped onto it, where Brendan Gleeson is the Albert Finney character and Cage is the Gabriel Byrne character.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, he did Darkman, which is essentially perfect.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Great. Exactly. And That I was like, ooh, I would love a Sam Raimi noir. Working with Nic Cage. That would be very interesting to me because that, I think would have made it feel a little bit more layered or deeper or something. A little bit. It felt broad strokes at times. Like, just noir. Broad strokes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had a lot of fun with it. I watched it over a couple days, so I was able to space out the episodes a little bit, which I think maybe helped me avoid the feeling at the very end. Like, I was like, boy, I have to, like, get through this. Because actually, I think the back half of the season I actually enjoyed more than the front of the season. Like, I think once we got some of the flashback clarity. And then mostly when. Because I loved Robbie and Janet so much, I think mostly when the three of them all got to really interact in the primary story together, that was just, like, such a treat and such a thrill. And particularly when Nic Cage just went nuts in episode seven and eight. That was when I was having the best time and laughing the most. And I was in the beginning of the season having a good time and enjoying it, but not laughing at the oddity and specificity of the performance. Performance as much as I had anticipated. And so when some more of those, like, deliberate affectations started to surface, I was just like, I feel like I am watching the show that I thought I was gonna be watching the whole time. So I really enjoyed it. I had a good time. I think what you guys said about what you were saying about just the pace and the flow over the season and, like, that's. I, I, I, I agree, Jason, with the, the observation that simultaneously there was, like, a lot going on in terms of moving pieces and parts, but then you have a little bit of those, like, ubiquity of all of the fights are gonna end up being on, like, a street, you know, in the old timey city. And, like, just the. I think the Silvermane part of it was a touch less interesting to me than some of the other strands of the story. So when it all kind of, like, oriented around that at the end, even though I liked those episodes quite a bit, it felt a little small. I think some of it also is just the kind of 2026. We are all watching comic book adaptations for the millionth time. And, like, the, you know, you are like, okay, we're Tombstone. We've been talking about Tombstone coming in a movie this summer, and here's Tombstone, Sandman again, et cetera. But that's just part of It.

[Joanna Robinson]

I didn't mind how small. I like. I kind of liked it. It felt small and, like, contained and, like, felt like it was shot on a studio backlot. Like, I. I kind of liked, to your point about mall. Like, I just kind of liked that we were in this, like, very little world in this one mayoral race and this one, you know, like, all this sort of stuff is contained. I think what was really tough for me in the back, I think here's what it was. Nick Cage having the leash off, as you point out, is always an exciting time. This guy that got with love and respect to play Megawatt was so aggravating to me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But why did you feel like he made big choices that couldn't be back?

[Joanna Robinson]

That I felt like you could not put both of those energies in the same stretch of episodes. And for me to vibe with him,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

everybody needs to be back or everybody else needs to be. To match them. Because they are very vividly in comic book. You know, they are in, you know, not just comic book, but also the rat. A tat. Tat. 30s, 40s noir. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had a hard time with him in his first couple episodes when he started to, like, be more fully incorporated into the main plot.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was like, oh, we're sticking with this.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I kind of. I kind of loved it by the end, actually, because. I don't know, there was just something so amusing about him. Like the Goodnight, sweet Prince Hamlet quote at the end. I'm like, this is.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was just Shakespeare.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He was everywhere.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Fumbling Shakespeare. The whole. Maybe that's what bothered me. He was misquoting Shakespeare, and it was bothering me.

[Mallory Rubin]

But it's, like, amusing because he's a dipshit who thinks he's like, you know, finally got the literal.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I get the doll around him.

[Mallory Rubin]

It just was. I thought it was amusing. And I like that he actually said to the other. To like, to. To Flint, why are we listening to this guy? Which felt like actually a necessary story. Beat for one of the guys with powers to say, like, why I love Jack Houston.

[Joanna Robinson]

But tracking Flint's, like, loyalty motif versus the love story with Kat versus the story.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is what I mean by, like, there's so much going on, but I'm not really invested in any of it. Nor do I understand, nor am I clear. Who. What they want me. What do they want me to feel like? Who do they want me?

[Mallory Rubin]

Are we supposed to root for Kat?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Rooting for Kat and Flint or Kat and Ben or Cat and Silvermane or Cat on Her own or what? You know, like. And I was like. And I kept being like, is this cat gonna be. Is this Kat Hardy gonna be Felicia Hardy? Is this person gonna be Black Cat? Is that what they're setting up here? I'm not sure. Like, there's a lot that I was, like, bringing comics lore to it and trying to figure out, oh, are they trying to assemble the Sinister 6 with all these guys? Okay. No, not really. And then all the flashbacks for me were hurting, not helping. Same in a lot of ways.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Especially because it just became putting them all together as if they fought at the same time in the same war. Really put into stark contrast just how much the age difference is between these guys. You know, I mean, like, Jack Houston and that crew are however old. They are mid to late 30s. And Cage is, like, mid-60s.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's, like, 62. So his, like, sort of floppy forelock flashback wig wasn't doing all the work.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, you think that was a wig?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. You think so?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, no. That's interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I hadn't thought of that.

[Joanna Robinson]

Had you considered it, perhaps that. That's not his hairline.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think that's a wig.

[Joanna Robinson]

Huh. Interesting.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You think Cage is wigging it up on this? That's interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Every day of his life, perhaps every time he leaves the house.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The wigs were nuts.

[Mallory Rubin]

Particularly so in the. What did they call it? The true hue.

[Joanna Robinson]

Tru.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hue. Color. Oh, unbelievable. And the true human.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's a good question.

[Joanna Robinson]

So much better in black and white.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Did you guys watch black and white or color?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, I watched black and white, and then Mal and I talked about it. I went back in and watched the last episode, a little bit of it in color, just to, like, see what it looked like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did the reverse. I watched a little bit of the first episode in color.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Just because that's what it booted up initially. And while I was trying to figure

[Mallory Rubin]

out how to, like, dear God, make it stop.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

How to watch it in black and white. So I watched probably the first 10 minutes in color and went to black and white and was glad I did, because I felt like black and white really covered for a lot of stuff that I think I would have been

[Joanna Robinson]

even more aggravated by, like, the design on the henches. You know, like your. Your tombstones, your megawatts looked so good in black and white. I thought they looked incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think that's part of why I liked the show so much, is the black and white was just such a specific and immersive, like, visual choice, and it Obviously helps heighten not only the comic book palette. Like, this book has been drawn in the specific way with this artist's intention, but also, obviously, the. Like. This is a 30s noir story. This is a crime story. This is a gritty pop your collar on your trench coat, and we're going to go solve a crime into. Your point, Joe. Like, this neighborhood that feels like it has a sense of place, and this is the club we go to. I thought that the black and white really heightened all of that effectively. And, like, even stuff like, you know, he's got the darker webs. The way that. That looked in the black and white. The way that the. The war goggles.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The goggles was such a good effect in black and white.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like the glow.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Really simple stuff. Like, I thought played great in black and white. Awesome. And helped, I guess, you know, plaster over some of the stuff that I think would have been just not as good or a little bit feeling like herky jerky.

[Joanna Robinson]

I wish they hadn't released it in Colorado.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, why do you think that's what I was just gonna ask is, like, why do you think they did give people the choice? They just think people weren't gonna want

[Jason Mantzoukas]

to watch a black and white show. I think there's a generational cutoff that not watch black and white movies. They won't, because they didn't ever. And so those movies are old, you know, or what? Like, old old. Not like, you know, sort of old. Like, imagine you're born in the year 2000. Like a movie from the 40s. Like, to watch His Girl Friday or to watch Maltese Falcon or something is a crazy. I mean, these are the best movies ever made, but, like, a crazy thing to a kid. So I think they want those kids watching this thing, so they got to put it in color, which is preposterous.

[Joanna Robinson]

Bummer.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, it is against the entire ethos of the character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And I think especially because the show is really trying to say, this is gonna be its own thing. This, like, actually is. This, like, wouldn't belong in the mcu. Right. And we're not shying away from that. We're actually trying to, like, amplify and heighten that so that it feels like its own thing and its own distinct flavor and energy. Lean into that. Just say to people, if you wanna watch it, you gotta watch it in black and white. That's how it's supposed to look. It looks amazing. The color. I watched the. I did the same. I did the end of the season in color. And the true hue at the end, and it was just. Was like, not only not as gripping, it, like, looked kind of bad, I

[Joanna Robinson]

assume it looked like way cheaper.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Very strong.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And it would, you know, the. I don't think it's successful as a movie necessarily, but Sin City, to me, was the movie that I kept thinking of, both the comics and then the movie adaptation. Because of that playing with the black and white like that, with this kind of noir y storyline. I really. I was like, ooh, I wish this had a little bit more of the grittiness that Sin City had. Sin City just had, like. I just wish there had been more. It felt very clean.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, in a way that I was like, oh, where's the grime? Where's the grit? I wanted a little bit more of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you think on the grime grit front that you could get a syringe to go right through the soft spot of somebody's eye?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I thought that was. I loved that moment and I wanted more. That's a great example of a beat that I wanted more. And I loved specifically that Robbie did it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That it wasn't during a fight that Ben thought to do it. I loved that consistently throughout. Ben is bad at being Spider man, you know, and that was satisfying, I think, and was a smart move.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I love, like, so when you're watching his spider fight and fumble around or whatever, that's its own. You know, there's all this meta commentary of, like, does he still have it? He's still got it. Like, all this sort of stuff like that. But when you're watching Nick Cage fight, I was like, I like how believably, like, sort of shambling and effortful it was for him. Like, I really liked that hit.

[Mallory Rubin]

The sweet spot of enhancing where this character is and the fact that he's been struggling with who he wants to be. The loss, the pain, the age, all of it. The, like, the fact that he's embrace, you know, inverting and embracing with. With no power comes no responsibility. That's the thing. He's championing without running a foul. It never tipped into De Niro and the Irishman, where you're like, wait, no, this just actually doesn't look like a thing to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, boy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, I agree, I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it was great. On the Nic Cage front, what else do we want to say about Nic Cage's Ben Reilly, the spider?

[Joanna Robinson]

I want to say this, one of my favorite things that happened throughout, like, and I love this in any sort of private eye show, this Is like a classic Veronica Mars setup, is I have to weasel my way into something, so I'm just going to, like, pretend to be this, that or the other thing. I just thought all of those sequences were really fun. And then he.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I. Because. And it's so funny you said Veronica Mars, because I wrote it in my. As a Gen X, I wrote it in mine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Is this Nicolas Cage's Fletch?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Because I was like, every time he has to get in to knock on a door or do something, he's not doing it inexplicably. He could be Ben Reilly for all these interactions. These people don't matter to the story. But he's still like, I gotta get into your apartment. I guess I'm the plumber. And I was like, this is. And you know that this is Nic Cage showing up and being like, I'm doing this one. Like this. This is a great story about him getting cast in Green Hornet, the Seth Rogen Green Hornet movie, and insists to play the villain that eventually Christoph Waltz plays. But Nic Cage said, I will only do it if I can do it with dreadlocks and a Jamaican accent.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Robert Pattinson is like, I'm gonna bring this energy to a lot of things that I do. He's like, I saw what Gary Oldman did in True Romance, and that's gotta be me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think Pattinson is cribbing off Gary oldman and Nick ca. 100%. Absolutely.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, what a beautiful. What a beautiful stuff.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What a Venn diagram of madness.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

The accent, like, the whatever our Pats is doing, whatever accent, whatever new voice he's doing in every project is so exciting. Specifically, he shows up. I forget which one it is, but he shows up and he does the Bette Davis. What a dump. And it made me laugh so hard. And I was just like. I feel like Nick Cage is just like, I'm gonna cite this. I'm gonna do this 1949 Bette Davis movie line right now. And I was just like, he does it throughout.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He references stuff throughout. When he says. When he references. Wait, what movie does he reference? And say it's still in the. It's still playing right now. Maltese Falcon. I can't remember what movie he says, it's actually in theaters right now. And I was like, he is just. It's that improv rule of play to the height of your intelligence. Everything Nic Cage knows, Ben Reilly knows, which is like, he has complete film history.

[Joanna Robinson]

All the Turner Classic Mov. Do you Think they should give Nic Cage his own TCM show.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

One million percent. I would watch that. I mean, that's the move. Like, I want Nic Cage to have a movie podcast, a movie show, anything where he curates. And all I want is for Ben Mankiewicz to try and corral Nic Cage.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what I was gonna say in talking about it's gotta be together. Absolutely. And Ben just, like, sweating and, like, pulling his collar open as he's trying

[Jason Mantzoukas]

to wrangle it, as they're trying to introduce Asphalt Jungle.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like when I forget, what was the name of the movie he did with Petter Pascal. The like, yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not Dream scenario. Work of staggering genius.

[Joanna Robinson]

Unbearable weight of massive talent. When they're talking about the cabinet of Dr. Caligari and he's just, like, monologuing about it, I'm like, this is just Nick Cave talking about a movie that he loves.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, and it's just. I would watch that Turner Classic Movie show every day, happily.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, a million percent. That would be a blast. Because he is so smart and so interested and interesting that all I want to do is watch Nick Cage be curious about a thing and then execute on it. And that's what this. At the best, that's what this has all over it is when he's doing Nic Cage stuff, when they let him loose. It's electric and it's nonsense. A lot of the times, the crazy,

[Joanna Robinson]

oh, I'm a spider.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, leg spider. Crickety Crackity. Crickety Crackity was every work for me, every single time. And I was like, oh, I wish there was 30% more weird David Lynchy stuff going on. Like, I kept being like, ooh, I wish Werner Herzog or Lars Von Trier directed this. I wish this was weirder is what I kept wanting. I kept wanting it to be actually as weird as Nicolas Cage, rather than Nicolas Cage seeming like the weird thing. The weird thing in this slick noir pastiche.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's why I wound up talking myself into more megawatts. Actually. Everyone is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, if everyone is megawatts, everyone is in the right movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

But, yeah, when he's like, you know, getting drunk, getting plastered, the bar fight was incredible. I love that he's describing. Their appendages are rather like straws. Veritable party whistles, you know, like, this is cocaine. This is amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

The director of the last two episodes, Greg Ytanis, who did some House of the Dragon, Presumed Innocent, and I really, that he brought a lot. He did a lot of, like, comic book, you Know, painting of. Of the action. And then that fight, that bar fight is for a lot of it, a oner. And it's like, a lot of oners. I'm like, all right, we get it. But I thought that one was really good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, I thought it was really good. I agree. And not all the fight choreography worked for me, but this one did. And especially because it had the. It's just the entry, the entrance of him being in the bar, and these guys come in, they, blah, blah, blah. And then him just following him out. And then he puts the thing on, then he walks back in. It's clearly him still. It's obvious to everybody that this is the guy who was just in it. And then the fight unfolds. And just that little setup of him being, like, knowing he's gotta put the mask on, but he's got a drunk that was dynamite and all. Nic Cage being drunk. Acting, I'll watch forever. Or being on drugs. Acting, I'll watch forever.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, Mandy. Every time.

[Mallory Rubin]

And of the, like, he has to enter a place and do something very audacious, kind of for no reason. I think my favorite example of that was. Cause, you know, he goes, he needs to get into his own apartment to get his suitcase. So he's like. He grabs the mop, and he does it an extra degree. But, like, he does have to pretend he's there with maintenance to infiltrate. Okay. When Dr. Faber catches him looking through the files in her office. And so he has to pretend he's a patient. Now, he does need a cover story for why he is behind her desk in the office. But the voice.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The specific story, the number of times. He's like, floor two down on floor two. I gotta make sure Google map it for me. Like, it was just so. It dialed up to a thousand.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's so crazy. And what's so weird about it is that's Nic Cage. Humphrey Bogart would never do this. James Bunny would never do this. This is Bugs Bunny. This is the Bugs Bunny. You're right.

[Mallory Rubin]

But my favorite.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, I'm hopping. But La' More Morris, who, again, like, every single second. So good when he gets to do not just, like, a Nick Cage impression, but a Jimmy Cagney as Nick Cage impression. So funny. Like, I hope he had the best time of his life doing that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Some of my favorite scenes were Nic Cage and the little kid Frankie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, Frankie. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Frankie is executing, like, straight up Little Rascals energy throughout. And I was like, give me more of this. Give me more of the, like, Little kid. Street urchin geometrics. Yeah, that was killing me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Frankie and Janet. I would also watch a Frankie Janet spin off just with their lives.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just some tutoring.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, incredible. Let's talk more about Janet, and let's talk more about Robbie and Frankie. If you like, the supporting characters, the supporting heroes, because we're gonna hit villains separately. Yeah, this was definitely the highlight.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Boy, wouldn't it have been great if the office with them was the hub, was the center of the story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hope for season two, like, because we end with Riley and Ruiz. I'm like, you know, And I'm like, okay, Robbie's got a paper to run, and that's a. That's a large job, so I hope his paper goes well.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not in today's. Not in today's world.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I was like, I just want the three I was thinking a lot about. I've been bringing up Perry Mason a lot on podcasts for some reasons, but Perry Mason, It's Perry Mason, Della street, his Girl Friday, essentially, and then Paul Drake, his investigator. And it's the three of them. And I was just like, that's the setup here. It's just like you've got your investigative journalist and you've got your. His Girl Friday, who also, like, knows how to sashay into a police station and get everyone to do what she wants to do. And, like, I just. I love the three of them.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And if you're gonna do it this way, if you want one hour episodes or whatever, and you want eight of them, don't make it one storyline.

[Joanna Robinson]

Case of the week.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Make it either case of the week or every two episodes is a case.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, the Silvermane stuff. Even though I love all those performers, that was where I started to feel Silvermane isn't.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, you know what?

[Mallory Rubin]

It is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And I wrote this down, too. It is. I had similar problems with this that I had with Daredevil, which was, what is the story we're telling? Is it these small pieces or is it this big piece? It felt, again, both too much and not enough for me to understand what the story was, how to receive it in terms of, like.

[Mallory Rubin]

For Joe, the Daredevil story was Bullseye feeds a cat. And it worked.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it worked for me. No, but this is the problem with the eight to ten episode seasons because, you know, we've been rewatching Buffy, or if you talk about Veronica Mars.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Love Buffy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Both of those shows have mastered in the 2224 episode season. Your case of the week for Veronica Mars or your Monster of the week for Buffy. But then you've got an overarching big bad storyline that is just seeded throughout. Exactly. You know, and then. Or like, you know, Beaver Casablancas or like whatever is happening in the background is just sort of like dropped here. Dropped here. You would get Silvermane like seated throughout. But he wouldn't. You wouldn't need to like spend so much time with him in every episode. Now listen. I could listen to Brennan Glenn Gleason, who. Who has the best accent in the world. And I am obsessed with the fact that Donald Gleason sounds exactly like him, you know, despite not coming from a working class background at all. I just think they sound delightful. But it was. The balance was off. Way off.

[Mallory Rubin]

The fighting is the point. It's what gives the whiskey its taste though.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

All time line.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was a really good line.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He had great stuff. It just was. He wasn't. It wasn't a compelling enough story to maintain a singular villain for a one hour episode who didn't himself have a story of his own. You know, even the kingpin has a more substantial storyline.

[Joanna Robinson]

Vanessa.

[Mallory Rubin]

Vanessa. Especially because of the grip on power in the city. That is a really interesting comp. Because like, I of course cared about the mayoral race.

[Joanna Robinson]

You were thinking about Spencer. I cared about his unwell.

[Mallory Rubin]

Unfortunately. We all are. I was, you know, of course invested in how Ben was going to navigate Silvermane and how Cat was going to. But I didn't give a shit about the. The mayoral.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm not tracking it at all.

[Mallory Rubin]

Money in the back room and all that stuff.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't even know who he's running against.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I mean. Right. And there are the illusions at the end. He's named at the end,

[Joanna Robinson]

Michael Kostroff, who's the. From the Wire. Like, I love him and I thought he did a great job with his like wire room glasses and his. And his vest and is like, I'm your mayor. Like I loved all that. But yeah, the whole story is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's not. It's not. It's not relevant to us enjoying this at all. And. And in fact could all go away. And the streamlined version of this street level Spider man story would be so much more satisfying. Spider man shouldn't be concerned with the mayoral race in a lot of instances.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, for the most part.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, truly.

[Joanna Robinson]

What I will say though is that I was worried because, you know, when we meet Ben Reilly and we find out about. Welcome to the Dead Wives Club. Ruby.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he has like hung up the mask. He's not doing it anymore. I was worried about the whole Surf Dracula question. Right. You know about the Surf Dracula thing, right? Which is that tweet of someone wrote about how you make a show called Surf Dracula and then you spend 10 episodes before we finally get to see Dracula surfing. And it's like, I was like, how long are we gonna have to wait to see him, Spider Man? And we did not have to wait that long. And for that I was really grateful. But because he's hung up the mask, we don't get a lot of those. This is the foe I'm fighting this week. You know what I mean? Because he's not in that mode. But in season two, we could. He could.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It suffers a little bit from. There's like a rule in improv, which is we're improvising a scene together. So don't play someone who doesn't want to be here. Don't be one of. It's just a surefire way to have a hard scene. If the person's like, I gotta go actually, or I don't want to be on this date, or, you know what I mean? Whatever. Whatever it is, want to be there, choose to be there. And part of it is he doesn't want to be Spider man. And all we want is for him to be Spider Man. And so it's a bit of a tough lift for him to spend the whole season trying to get rid of this in a way that I'm like, no, I want you to want this. I understand what's happened. But we haven't been privy to the story of Ruby and we don't know his origin story really, except for the broad strokes, which I'm fine with. But I want him to want to be Spider man because I want to feel as though that case of the week that, oh, that person's being robbed because Spider man is street level, friendly, neighborhood Spider Man. That's his deal. It's not big, gigantic concerns. It is small neighborhood concerns. And that's what I love about also a noir, a detective that is local. It is street level, you know, and that's great. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

The thing about his struggle with the Spider identity and the Ruby remorse and all of that, that I quite liked over the course of the season and when it kind of like culminated, it brings us back to Janet and Robbie and those relationships. Because, like that scene on the bench between Ben and Robbie, like, when he. When Ben is like, you know, I used to like it. Cause, like, it felt good and now it doesn't. That Was really interesting. And I thought that felt like a very, you know, kind of relatable and human note. Have all of that been bitten by a man spider while rescuing POWs and then became Pete Peter? I'm no longer Peter. I'm Ben Reilly. I haven't had the opportunity yet to be bitten.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Ben Reilly is the name of the Spider man clone in the comics, which I was like, oh, are they trying to be that Ben Reilly? But no, they're just.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. Here is like a new. I've taken on a new identity.

[Joanna Robinson]

The wig is not blonde.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did love. I will say. And I know we're jumping around and I apologize. I'm part of the problem in that. But I loved the moment. So, so much is going on that I feel like the story that I really enjoyed the most. And I know I said I didn't like the flashbacks, which I didn't like, but the moment where you realize Nicolas Cage is just out of frame of the picture of all of them taken in the war. All of these guys who have superpowers were captured and liberated, and we find out, oh, Nicolas Cage was right there, just off to the side. That I thought was a great moment in a way that I was like, I wish that I guess more of his struggle had been this ptsd. All of his powers are related to the war. Their powers are related to the war. The war is not over. They've brought the war home. What is that? How does that impact and influence whether or not he wants to be Spider Man? Because part of being Spider man is always connecting to this central trauma of what is new. Modern monstrous warfare. You know, that was interesting to me. Less so than even Silvermane or other things. But it was, again, so mushy with all the other stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think too, because the gang of villains, you know, Silvermane's henches, they're like. One of the things we learned in the season is that they're on this clock. Right. So their powers manifested much later. This is recently have come to the fore for them. And that means they're gonna die. And that's why they need the antidote that Faber tries to make from his liver.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is this where your liver is, by the way? Because he was bleeding from, like, I don't think. I don't think that's where the liver is. But I don't know, maybe that's how you access it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

If you're an evil.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm not internous. In.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

In the 66 universe, that's where everybody's Liver.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Is that what this one is? I can't remember what. What number universally, everybody's organs are all jumbled up.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, certainly the man spider, I mean, it's God. It's everywhere.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah, big time.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so the fact that this thing that he, like, has come to really resent, you know, he has these powers, but they weren't enough to save his love, and so he doesn't want to use them at all. He doesn't want to help people anymore. It just brings them despair. That's the thing that's going to maybe spare these other guys from their feet. Those are really thematically rich strands of the story that I agree. I wish we had spent, like, a little bit more time there. The thing about the flashback that I think is just difficult in 2026, like, modern superhero TV movie life to not do when you're watching it is like, you kind. I don't know, I'm like, you can't not think about, like, Bucky and Hydra and just the similarities of the. Like, you were a pow. We took you, we experimented on you, we turned you into this thing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so then, like, I don't know. I think most of the show felt so completely and utterly unique that the parts on the origin story beat that feel a little bit more reminiscent of another thing I wrote in my notes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, three episodes in, I was like, they're not doing Origins story at all. How refreshing. And then they're like, jk, we're doing it as a flashback.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's so hard to resist the pull. But I feel like most of the times when somebody resists the pull, it works out.

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, we know with Spider Man, I mean, that was the whole joke of spider verse. They're like, yada, yada, yada. This is what happened to me. And it was like, it's played for laughs. Then here we have, like, a dramatic, surreal flashback.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, even in Homecoming, we never, you know, we get the illusions to it. Like, when you can do what I can and you don't, and the bad things happen, they happen because of you. But we never see it all, for we get it.

[Joanna Robinson]

A spider, a man spider, bit you. We get it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Would you rather be bitten by a radioactive spider?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or man spider.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes, a radioactive spider.

[Mallory Rubin]

The spider for sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

A little spider that I can then crunch.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The man spider was terrifying, Terrifying.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Which I really enjoyed. And I also felt like there wasn't enough. There wasn't enough, like, weight given to, like, what the fuck? Like, everybody should have been very upsetting. What's going on? And everybody's like, okay, so this guy who's half Spider and half man.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, they do, like, burn it. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a lot.

[Mallory Rubin]

One of the things I loved about Janet was just how competent she was. That was so, so wonderful. And like, you mentioned the, you know, the cultivating the relationships, you know, bringing the lunch to the cops to get the information. And then the way that. That actually, like, doesn't just feel like it's there simply to tell us. Janet can do her own thing. It pays off. She gets the call later. It's like, stitched throughout the story. And because Ben, who is, like, often falling so short throughout the story, kind of finds himself actually out loud saying a few times, like, it's like, you guys forget that I do this for a living. You know, about. About the PI work.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

To then have him say at the end, like, you're. You're better at this than I am. And we know that that is true. Very smart.

[Joanna Robinson]

When he, like, tells her that he's Spider. Spider man.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was my.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just like. Yeah, I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I love that as a gag. That was my message where he's drunkenly revealed to her.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the fact that he has retained none of that and has done it multiple times. That was so, so, so funny.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I loved it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I thought he was so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Spider's busy. Janet.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's so good. He was so good at being goofy, which I was so happy because I was a little afraid that it was going to be. He was going to try and really do Humphrey Bogart throughout. So the silliness was very refreshing and I thought was very welcome. And he crush it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And then we have the heart from Janet and Robbie in those relationships. So that was really great. On the villain front, who was your favorite? Either Silvermane or any of his. It could be Lucas Haas. It could be Winston Tombstone. Sandman. We know it's not Megawatt for Joe.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know. I think the design on Megawatt was so cool in the black and white. I thought that looked incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I liked Tombstone just. Cause I thought that he had the most interesting story. You know, he had an arc. You know, Sandman was fine. I wanted Cat to have more depth. I wanted that character to have another layer because she was super interesting and is captivating to watch and was electric on screen. So I was like, ooh. I just wanted. That's why I kept being like, is she black Cat? Is this A. Is she casing this? Is she going to steal what's going on here?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think they were just using the name eventually. You know what I mean? No, I really agree with you. I think that like the Flint. Felicia, the Flint cat thing was the. Was the mushiest part of the whole thing was just sort of like theirs is the love story we're supposed to believe in. He ultimately makes a decision at the end of the day, because of her, he gets to get the antidote essentially so that they can run off to like Santorini or wherever they're going to be, live happily ever after. But then like, why are we meant to buy into the, the Ben cat thing at all, honestly?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And when we are, when we're excited about it, when he's like saying to Janet like, I'm so excited we're leaving tomorrow. Like, I was like, do you believe this?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's what I was like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Does he believe you're a 62 year old man? Get it together guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was packing. Like, I feel like she was gonna go.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then she said to him at the end, like, if not for Flynn, I would have gone. I liked his retort. I liked his like, you know, it's one thing to like fuck around with the guy, but then to like sail away and keep him on the hook. And she. And it's like, oh no. I mean, it was like he deserved to say it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I did have a. I did Google at one point how old the actress was who's playing Felicia Cat Hardy. Because I was like wondering about the age difference and it popped up immediately in the Google search, which means a lot of people were wondering about that age difference. She's in her early 40s, which is just like older than I thought she was. And there are comments throughout that, that Silvermane's like a younger model and like stuff like that. I mean she looks incredible, you know, young 40s, young 60s. Still an age gap. But I was just like, it's not as gross as I thought it was.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But I also, I didn't believe for an instant that there was an actual vibe love connection.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no, no, not at all. But like she was going to go with him. Like the plot is, I guess was

[Jason Mantzoukas]

in that was that simply because it was the only. The path of least resistance to extricate. Extricate herself from the situation. You know what I mean?

[Joanna Robinson]

I think because she thought Flint was gone and so she's like the next guy.

[Mallory Rubin]

I tried to burn down Silvermane's place. It didn't Work out. I wanted to be with Flint. It didn't work out. So, like, I guess this Ben Reilly seems like a good enough guy when

[Joanna Robinson]

she throws herself out of the window, which I quite liked because, like, women in spider stories always get thrown off the roof. So the fact that she threw herself out the window, I was like, that's great. She gives him this, like, the look she gives him as she's being sort of reeled back in is very much like, oh, it's the spider.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hello. You know, once, you know, he's the spider.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, and it's also that it's, you know, like, in Noir Tour, if she is our femme fatale, like, her interest can't be trusted.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, she should have been like, that's a story I would have preferred, is that she's playing him the whole time. But I feel like it was trying to have it both ways.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think it was. I think it very much was.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have the big betrayal. But then she's trying to come back to him earnestly at the end. Even when she goes to Janet, she's like, I didn't. I'm here to, like, make sure he's okay. It's like, dean, right? I didn't want anything.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She's a villain. I think. I think she should be a villain. Not a villain, like, with malice.

[Mallory Rubin]

I should be.

[Joanna Robinson]

She should be looking out for herself.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, that's all. That's all. I mean, you know, but in a way that is absolutely negative for him and that she is remorseless, I think should be part of it, you know,

[Joanna Robinson]

And I still think she should get her guy and still go to Santorini, by the way.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, Absolutely. But it just. It made it, again, mushy enough that I was like, who am I supposed to. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? What is this? What is the story is what I kept having trouble with. And then as it would start to come into view, there would be, like, an entire episode that is just Nicholas Cage in a mental institution. And I was like, okay, so we're doing one of these. We're doing, like, a bottle episode for him where he's just in a mental institution. I was like, this is. I've heard that it was crazy. It was so crazy. I loved it because it gave us all this madness. But I was also like, we don't have time for this, man. Like, I'm not interested in. And stopping down to tell this part of it now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I think Flint didn't totally land. I agree And I think what you're mentioning Boardwalk Empire and Jack Huston earlier. I do like the casting on the we're back in a prohibition era story and you associate Richard with that time. But he is so handsome and he's

[Joanna Robinson]

like, put some shit on my face and there they'll take me seriously.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's like a bizarre version of like, you know, Tom Hardy can never show his face or something. I don't understand what's going on with that. But I didn't think that this flint marker was like, particularly charismatic or interesting. Yeah, no, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, but I thought his design was very cool. Yeah, I thought all like the tombstone megawatt Sandman designs were like the way that the sand moved around his face, at least in black and white, looked quite good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I didn't think Megawatt looked as good in the true hue because then it's like the kind of like orangey neon creep up the face versus.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, I didn't see anything.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, but in black and white. I agree.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, I thought, and I thought it was good that they didn't try and do too much for those three guys. You know, they didn't try and full sandman him, you know, only at the

[Joanna Robinson]

end you get the like the hand out of the pile of sand moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I did. Like when he got smushed between the cars and just exploded like a dune

[Joanna Robinson]

blowing in the wind.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was very fun. On the Megawatt front, in case he doesn't come up again, just want to share this quote. You ever shut up? No. Why would I deny the world a moment of my grandior? Who has ever said grandeur that way in their life? Grand Dior. That killed me. I was cracking up. What a bizarre, truly bizarre performance from that.

[Joanna Robinson]

When I looked up that like, okay, with love and respect to that guy. When I looked up and found out that he was like a Nickelodeon kid, I'm like, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But that's the thing where I'm like, oh, this is where I wish Sam Raimi had done it. Or if you want to see, to me the perfect execution of director and this version of Nicolas Cage. I urge everyone at home to please take a moment tonight to put on Bad Lieutenant, Port of Call New Orleans. This is Werner Herzog directing Nicolas Cage in one of the most unhinged, delightfully so performances in modern cinema. There are multiple points of. There are multiple shots where you are looking at the existing action through the point of view of a lizard that is also there. So it is some Nuts level stuff. I cannot recommend it enough. And it is this Nicolas Cage just

[Joanna Robinson]

totally unhinged double feature with Mandy or.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Great, okay, great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Take your preferred substance of choice.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh my God.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you think anyone told Werner Herzog to move the lizard and he said, no, you're a coward. Just like when they tried to replace the puppet Grogu was using.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory's gonna make this one a Herzog moment about Grogu.

[Mallory Rubin]

Either that or the video where you see him actually get shot by.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah, yeah. By Klaus Kinsky.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, just one of the Gruyzzi.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And the short where he eats his boot. All of it. All of it. All of Fitzcarraldo. All of us. Absolutely fucking nuts.

[Mallory Rubin]

What a guy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A true every. Just do yourself a favor also and watch the Werner Herzog directed commercial for salt. For his friend's salt.

[Joanna Robinson]

I've never seen this salt.

[Mallory Rubin]

The thing you bought.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I got the salt. It worked. I bought the salt.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where is it?

[Mallory Rubin]

What?

[Joanna Robinson]

Where does it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm sure it's on YouTube on the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like Orson Welles, like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, it's just. No, it's a real commercial.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, the Orson Welles one is too.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, I know, but I mean, it's like.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's just like an actual finished commercial that went to there.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes, okay. Correct. It's. And it's so Werner Herzog. It's amazing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exciting.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

All the lizard shots on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, Werner Herzog. They're talking about that movie and she's talking about all these shots that are from the point of view of the lizard. And he says that it's Herzogian. He calls it Herzogian. And I was like, I love this guy so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

Incredible. What's Benzo? Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Who knows? That's not for me to decide.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, it was for Werner to decide.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, I wouldn't claim to have that.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can't give yourself a nickname.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I can't have that gravitas the way that he does. Does.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right, well, we'll figure out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He also claims to not dream. I love it. Silence.

[Mallory Rubin]

He says he doesn't remember his dreams.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He says he doesn't dream.

[Mallory Rubin]

Does not dream. Like his mood conscious is not active while he's asleep. That doesn't seem possible. I don't think that's true.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have I ever told you my favorite joke from the league?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No. What is it?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's when your character says Gattaca instead of Attica.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Was that an improv or was that in the script?

[Mallory Rubin]

Just take.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just claim it. And if you claim it I'm gonna say it's Mr. Ganderkin.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think it might have been in the script. Cause we didn't have scripts, we just had outlines. And so Jeff would usually like have some. If he had a bit or a joke, he would give us that. And I think Gattaca might have been a Jeff pitch. I don't remember though. It's absolutely something I would have improvised.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's call it Manzoukian.

[Mallory Rubin]

Positively, positively Manzukian. Any other funny scenes or moments that you guys want to highlight that we haven't talked about already? We talked about the I already know you're Spider. You're the Spider montage with Janet, which was my pick for this. I also enjoyed when she said he was yellow and he's like a coward, like a banana.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Really funny. I loved all that stuff. We talked about this scene where he's doing the stretching and all this. There's a couple, but there's one in particular that genuine and it's especially if you really. I'd love for somebody to clip it and meme it or whatever because he comes in with the suitcase with his costume in it and it looks like just. That scene looks like a version of Death of a Salesman directed by Guy Madden. It's like true, insane, next level otherworld stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love when you see it before you quite understand what it is and you're like, what's okay?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, whatever it is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Those were the moments that I felt like really engaged by the show. When it was weird, you know, because when it's trying to do the story, it's not weird at all. And it's very on rails. Unsuccessfully.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would say I love too in his like when he's doing the physical comedy of the shriveled up spider and all of that, you know, because Spider man, so many of the comics, the origin of Peter Parker, of this is so rooted in the like young person goes through puberty and comes to terms with like, I've got a tingle and then I'm slinging white stuff out of my body. What's happening? Yeah, the idea of like old washed Ben Reilly spider noir being like, guys, I'm. I'm in the refractory period. I'm going to need a minute. No more web sleep.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Really funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like that was really.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That was really funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just great.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I also loved. I wrote when he. Him playing Happy Ben Reilly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When he sings I love Cheesecake in the morning with you. I was like, what is he up to? I guarantee that's an improv. There's absolutely no way that was in the script. He's just riffing in a way that I recognize as the insufferable riffing that I do on sets. That people are like, will this guy just please stop?

[Mallory Rubin]

How manzukian.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But boy, are they finding out. Absolutely wonderful stuff I love having. Eating cheesecake in the. I love cheesecake in the morning with you really got me. The whole happy performance I really loved. I'm just trying to go through all the stuff that I flagged as I have.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. What about just. The bottle is just labeled antidote.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, my God. Incredible. Very, very, very good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And the people keep looking at it and being like, what is this? Yeah, well, I got news for you. It's the antidote.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I also loved when Robbie.

[Joanna Robinson]

I described on the label. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

When Robbie. Robbie comes in and then Janet is found. And the whole bit about, like. Well, it seemed, like, seemed dumb to bring it in. And he's like, yeah, this is, like, so much better. That was great. I loved that. I also enjoyed when he called Cat Lady Judas. That just made me laugh.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Also, everybody knows he's the Spider.

[Mallory Rubin]

Too many people know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's so bad at keeping the secret.

[Mallory Rubin]

Too many people know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know what I mean? That I was like, be better at this.

[Joanna Robinson]

It felt very like Mandalorian. I was like, does he have to kill every single person?

[Mallory Rubin]

Must go bathe in the living water so. So that he can be redeemed. Violation. Like that rando fucking bartender knows.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, that bartender definitely knows for sure. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I was like, now what's the. I mean, I guess he's drunk. I couldn't figure that out. I was like, spider man really protects his secret identity.

[Mallory Rubin]

He had that amazing Janet montage where he's hammered or plastered as he likes and then has no. Is not able to retain the fact that he has, like, revealed his own identity. Yeah, he's not going to know that. That bartender knows. So that's a liability.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's Todd Fields, Freaks, that he says is still in theaters, which is still playing in theaters. I was like, oh, God bless you. You know, he's like, what year is it exactly? What time. What year I want.

[Joanna Robinson]

What year is it exactly? When he made a reference to a 19. I know we're in a different world. When he made a reference to a 1949 Bette Davis movie, I'm like, are we in 1949?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are we in. Are we. Have we traveled into the 1950s?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Freaks is much earlier. Freaks is the 30s, I think.

[Joanna Robinson]

How much after World War II. Are we meant to be?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You know, I don't know. And that's a great question. And. And the movie doesn't want you to ask these questions.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where is the liver inside of your body?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yep. Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Don't ask these questions.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, this is. Don't interrogate. Don't, don't, don't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Was Prohibition the exact same time in this continuity?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, that's the best time because,

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, are they supposed to be World War I?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's World War II. It's World War I. That. That is true. But.

[Joanna Robinson]

But then, like, then it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it then the movie?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So then for him to be quoting that 1949 movies makes no sense at all.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

As long as you could still wax poetic about really wanting a hot dog, I'm willing to accept that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Loved all the hot dog stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

So much hot dog stuff and the glass.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So much voice work. He's doing so much business. I mean, and the wigs are doing. The wigs are positively, like, truly like nuts. Level. The tight one in modern, in contemporary time. But then the floppy one in the flashbacks was really getting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Also. This is my matinee idol moment with

[Jason Mantzoukas]

his white vest and shirt on, like, gauzy. Those flashbacks were trouble.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do you think it was his decision to say that he only had one clean glass and then he found another glass and it was dirty, but he would drink from the dirty one and then not just turn on the sink and rinse it? Do you think that was his choice? Because he definitely could have just turned on the sink.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, like, there's a million.

[Joanna Robinson]

I feel like when she. Because I feel like in that moment she goes, ben. But I really feel like she wanted to be like, nick, stop.

[Mallory Rubin]

Nick, you can just rinse the glass.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Nick, we're already over.

[Joanna Robinson]

What about the emotion?

[Mallory Rubin]

Did any of the emotional moments hit you? I mentioned I really liked the bench scene between Robbie and Ben at the end. I quite enjoyed that. I thought that was like a.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There was some good stuff. But yeah, there was nothing. There was no emotional storyline that I felt particularly connected to, which is, I think why I wanted more from the detective story.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Why I wanted more shoe leather because I wasn't like, oh, but at least I'm having fun inside of this emotional storyline. No, it was kind of neither nor

[Mallory Rubin]

true leather for Werner Herzog to meet.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. Yes. Chomp, chomp.

[Joanna Robinson]

With love and respect to the poor drowned Ruby. None of that stuff worked for me. No, truly agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

Poor, poor drowned Ruby.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just zero percent Work for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

It does also seem. We don't know all the particulars. He should have been able to get to her. I think he's the Spider.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

When he told the story, it's just

[Joanna Robinson]

like I was drunk at the time.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then they cut back to him like, oh, wait a minute. So he was an asshole.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He was like, I was supposed to meet her, but I was a good time Johnny.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was out of the eyes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And his like his outfit, he's wearing like a patterned, you know, jacket. And he's like, ah, a big nick case. I was like, I fucking love this.

[Joanna Robinson]

And he's like, she died. Cause I was a piece of shit.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oops. Yeah, I don't. It didn't work for me either. For that reason. I was like, I don't understand. Cause it's also like he's doing Sam Spade. He's doing classic noir Humphrey Bogart. But then when he's not, he's really not. He's broad in every single way. In that Bugs Bunny way, in a way that I was like, well then I don't believe if you were then a bad guy, a Sam Spade, a callous. A Parker, you know, like a callous remorseless person. Then be that still as the Spider, you know, be murderous, be.

[Joanna Robinson]

But the drum they bang so many times is like, the spider will save people. He's a good guy. He will interven.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I really wish that, like, I wish that it. Not that I wish for another like Gwen Stacy moment, but I wish it had been more like a Gwen Stacy moment where it's like I even I, the Spider man couldn't get her. Not. I was drunk somewhere in a bar and then I stopped to put my spider suit on and then just kind of floated uselessly in the water.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. By the time I got into the leak, I definitely still could have saved her for sure.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He was so close.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, but he was drunk a couple.

[Mallory Rubin]

Couple whiskey tumblers deep at that point. I think I. It's interesting because like, what you guys are saying, the, the. The selfish, callous, like not a great guy thing he's done is decide to stop being the Spider for five years. Right. And so then when like Robbie and his friends have to talk him into like, you know, when Robbie says, like, well, you. You have the choice to like help these people now.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's.

[Mallory Rubin]

But the I. I think to your point, like the part where he is. Because the Cat and Ruby stuff doesn't really work.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

The place that the Lady Judith stuff stuff sends Ben to actually still did work for me, particularly because he's being so goofy. He's not. He's like, mining the depths of his feelings. He's doing it in a kind of like, really exaggerated way. So when he's in the. The fight with the guys at the bar, these strangers who. He feels like the need to defend himself too, even though they, like, they are not. They're nobody of consequence to him. And he's like, you know, maybe the spider's a guy just like anyone else. You ever think about that? You ever wonder what his problems were? He's swinging around, burning buildings, saving people. You ever think he feels the heat or. Or get sad or tired or lonely? I was thinking, like, even dragons get lonely from Hot D with Viserys.

[Joanna Robinson]

But did you have that under your most emotional moment, Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, that was my tears because I didn't have a lot of other contenders. So I think the Bender, like, that's

[Jason Mantzoukas]

an example of something that I like and love. And all of it works with the exception of there's a dissonance to it coming out of the mouth of someone. So see, for a 60 something to be saying words that make more sense from a young person. For a young person to be strung. This is Peter Parker's struggle. Peter Parker's struggle is how do I maintain my life and give myself wholly to others? You know, like, what is this? And to love someone is to put them in danger. And all of these component things that he is in his 60s and still lamenting.

[Joanna Robinson]

So he went to war when he was in his 50s.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Got it. And that again, it's that thing which is like, oh, I'm so glad it's Nick Cage. And of course. But do you think they even had a conversation that's like, we gotta get a younger actor. If it is in fact live action. You know, Nic Cage is perfect for the voice of animated Ben Reilly or animated spider noir.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I like that he was washed.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just don't think you can give him this soldier backstory.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't think so.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't make him contemporary.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not with these guys. Not with these other guys who. Unless you make them all old, you know. And it is the 40s dude.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And it was from the teens.

[Mallory Rubin]

Megawatt. 60 is. He's like, I'm a stop.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he's all wrinkly and look at me, Ma. Top of the world. That would be great.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which. Which effect did you guys like? The best of the just styling and like, which again, I think the.

[Joanna Robinson]

The henchman face Stuff looked really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I thought.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I think. And this is not truly. This is not an effect, but I think, in a way, the black and white version of it is the effect that I got the most out of. Like, it helped immerse me in this world that it was referencing and always referencing all of the kind of classic cinema. Cinemagraphic. What's the word I want?

[Joanna Robinson]

Cinematography.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Cinema. Yeah, Cine.

[Joanna Robinson]

Cinematographic.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like. Right. I'm trying to find the same word, but you know what I'm saying? Like, all those visual cues, all the cinematic cues, but specifically camera. Like, all this stuff, the canted angles,

[Joanna Robinson]

a lot of up angles, a lot

[Jason Mantzoukas]

of the people, the blinds, and the stark contrast between light and dark, and all this stuff that's, like, all the pieces of noir. I really enjoyed and really helped me, because I think if that hadn't been. If I'd watched the color version, I think I would have liked it quite a bit less. It helped put me in the mindset of. Of those movies that I love and those. That kind of storytelling.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I was most curious to see how the effect of Sandman translated. I think just because, like, the Sandman looks so horrible in Spider Man 3. It was interesting to see a different design on Sandman, and it was just refreshing to have it be anything but

[Joanna Robinson]

just his, like, little fist.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the shape and stuff. Yeah, but.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I was like, what's it gonna look like? Is it golden? And it kind of wasn't. Almost like, more like gravel than sand. And then when he went. It's like the sand has turned to glass from Megawatt's heat. It's like a kind of ocean blue. It looks a little different.

[Joanna Robinson]

I had such an Avatar Bender moment, like, when Megawatt was fighting Sandman. And I was like, what happens when lightning hits sand? Glass, bitches. There you go. She had said that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, but how would he have said lightning?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Glass.

[Joanna Robinson]

Glass, bitches.

[Mallory Rubin]

I did, like, when Megawatt got thrown in front of the train during the final battle. That was fun.

[Joanna Robinson]

I enjoyed that. Conductor.

[Mallory Rubin]

We also did, like, a full John Wick 2 Hall of Mirrors.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Cat Silvermane.

[Joanna Robinson]

Horrible.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, that was strange.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I didn't get that either. Again, I. I was really waiting, eager

[Joanna Robinson]

for the show to be done at that point.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Same. And especially, I was like. Especially because I felt like the Silvermane. The crime storyline for me ended around episode five or six. And then seven and eight just felt interminably long because seven was mostly the mental hospital. Amy Aquino digging his Liver out and making like them her young son who's an old man. Like, I was like, what is going on?

[Joanna Robinson]

Good old Freckles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Freckles. Not nearly enough freckles on his face to have the nickname Freckles. But anyway, just throwing that out there.

[Joanna Robinson]

Then he died right away, man.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah, he died straight away. Both of them. Both of them straight to death.

[Mallory Rubin]

We didn't see a lot of blood. And then the building explodes, so now they're dead.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Anything if you were. If Cat for Kat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Cat goes to the doctor and is like, are you telling me if you know who the spider is, then you can create an antidote? She should go to Ben and be like, hey, go to the doctor. She can create an antidote from your whatever genetic makeup or whatever liver, and

[Joanna Robinson]

instead it's seven pints of your blood.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So then we were weirdly like, oh, they have to kidnap it. I was like, I don't understand any of them this, like, why they did it like this, you know, that didn't make sense to me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And then that element, like you said already, of are we supposed to really resent her for that? Are we still supposed to be rooting for her even though she's done this? Not just bad thing, but needless.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. Ultimately it felt like he might want to find a cure as well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So why. Why have to do this against his will versus, I think if someone approached him and said, we might be able to cure you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

You don't have to be the spider anymore. And he could be. Be like, great, right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Crazy doctor trying to. Decades age down her, like, trying to, like, force a Benjamin Buttoning of her son in her secret lab full of

[Joanna Robinson]

basically the thing from the Prestige.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was gonna say, like, alien resurrection vibes in there for sure. Fallouts of Vault 4, you know, with all the. The mashups of the. The animals and the people. Very strange. Very strange concept. And I really enjoy. What else have we not hit for Spider noir that anybody wants to touch on?

[Joanna Robinson]

I will just say in terms of the bad effects, you know, the Digital Double, the Swinging Spider Man Digital Double looked pretty bad most of the time, like, especially in the landing sort of moments. But I think the spider suit was so cool looking.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I just think, like, in the fight, like, even with the hat on, like, it just looked really cool.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The texture of it is cool. The goggles are great. And the goggles are really good at, especially in the black and white, obviously, at giving you context for where he is in Dark environments, which I loved that as a. Just like a visual cue. It was, it was terrific.

[Mallory Rubin]

I also liked when he was like. Because the Silverman phone call thing, like he, like this guy with a sock on his head, like he can't understand

[Joanna Robinson]

a word he says.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like pretty annoying actually.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was just.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was. That was very good. Why did you think the double looked bad? Like because of the. That convincingly Nic Cage or like he's too. Is it. Cause he.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, just the physics were off on like the land. The landing. It just looked like too light and too like Gumby as it, as it landed just.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

It should have been more like hobbling from.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It looked like animation from the Sam Raimi movies. It looked like old, you know, it just wasn't. It had that problem, which I think is probably endemic with all of their shows. They just don't have the money.

[Joanna Robinson]

Exactly.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To do it as well as it can be done for eight episodes of a TV show.

[Joanna Robinson]

It makes you appreciate like how good of a job they do with Tom Holland's digital double and stuff like that on those.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, maybe it's not too late to get Nic Cage into Billy Elliot before season two of Spider Noir and then have him become like an expert dancer and do his own stunts.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

It is too late to get Nick Cage into it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Billy Elliot is the middle.

[Mallory Rubin]

If he's trying to replicate Todd Holland's grace and limberness. Yeah. I mean he could do something else. Will he be able to do like a Rihanna?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wait, was Holland Billy Elliot on the stage? On the stage.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jamie Bell on the screen.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So both Billy Elliots have became superheroes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Body horror superheroes. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Isn't that interesting?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, sure is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What does that say about the world we're living in? We'll be right back with more Hustle bars.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by NOS Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat and gears. Every checkered flag and trophy raised. Every lap, every race, every hard fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of NOS Energy. High performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal Human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of NOS Energy and get out after it.

[Mallory Rubin]

This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN and get a real offer. Down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises. Just an experience you can trust. Like your offer. Accept it, schedule pickup and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana pickup fees may apply. All right, it's time for a favorite tradition across the ringer podcast network, Man Zoukas recommends.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, okay, here we go. All right, so I want. I'm here to talk about anime. This is very new to me. I'm a very new to anime person. Like I said, I'm a 53 year old man who has a Crunchyroll subscription and no children, which is a lie. I checked.

[Joanna Robinson]

You looked it up.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's cool.

[Joanna Robinson]

In California only or nationwide, by the way.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Good question. It is. They're locking it down in some states. I read an article about this show, Free RIN Beyond Journey's End. I don't know whenever it was airing season one. So a couple years ago that made it sound so interesting and right up my alley that I sought it out. I subscribed to Crunchyroll and I watched it and became obsessed with it. And this show I've watched in its entirety at least six or seven times. I've watched it constantly. It's like. It is. It's a real balm. It's been a real balm in my life, I'd say, in the years since it came into my life. And it is incredible storytelling. On. Wait. Correct. Have you guys watched. How much have you guys watched?

[Joanna Robinson]

I watched like five episodes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I want to say I'm through episode 10, season one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And so I've watched all of it. There's just two seasons and season. It's like 36 episodes total or something like that? I believe so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, okay, but. And it's based on a manga that I have not read and purposefully will not read because I don't want to be spoiled as to what's going on in this context because I'm so enjoying this interpretation of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sometimes spoilers matter sometimes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

If you told me that something happened in it, I wouldn't be mad at you, but I'm enjoying receiving the story like this. So I Don't want to first do it this way and then receive the entirety of the story. And just. So I'll break it down for people. Cause I think your show in specific is. This show is for your demo. Yeah, this is a show that is about. It's called Beyond Journey's End. And so at the very beginning of this story is the very end of the story that has been before, which is a party of heroes. Adventurers managed to defeat the Demon King, who's been just a absolute brutal, terrible figure in this world for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. A big bad. And the party of heroes is a warrior, Himmel the warrior. Rather, Himmel the hero. A warrior Eisen, the kind of priest Heider, and the mage who is Frieren, who's the in. And the show is about an elf, Frieren, who is. Because she's an elf immortal. And you are watching a show that is about people fighting dragons and being on an adventure. And it is for shows like this, it is a found family show. It is a Lord of the Rings. It is a fellowship show. It is people in pursuit of a task that is so big, but along the way, they are doing things. They're helping other people with their needs and engaging in smaller acts of service throughout the land. And you're watching it from the point of view of a character, Freegren, who's essentially immortal, who becomes consumed with and heartbroken by this idea that she does not know how to have human relationships with people because their lifespans are so short. To her, they're on this adventure that for the group of heroes, is so totemic for them because it's a decade of their lives. And she's like, that's nothing. And she's like, I'll see you in 50 years. We'll meet again to see the meteor storm again in 50 years. And when she sees them, they're all old and dying, and she hasn't aged a beat. And they are all. It sends her into this kind of existential crisis. And she then takes on an apprentice, starts to assemble a new group that she. So the show is bouncing between her and her apprentice, Fearne, who is maybe one of my favorite characters in all of stories. Now they're young warriors, Stark. And they are now walking the path that she walked in her former fellowship, in her former group. They are walking the same path, encountering some of the same townspeople, encountering some of the same bad guys. But really, it's about learning how to connect with people. And learning how to be a friend and a human being and how to really connect with people. And that, to me, I think, is. What I think is wonderful about the show is I watch a lot of shows, anime shows that are about people fighting demons and people fighting dragons. Jujutsu Kaisen and demon slayer and all these shows that are. That are sentenced to being a hero. These are great shows that are a blast. But Frieren, to me is those things happen throughout the. But really it's about the slice of life, moment to moment, episodic nature of their group of friends getting to be closer with each other. And it is so satisfying and so sweet. And I think that's why I keep coming back to it. It scratches that itch to me that, like, great British bake off does like. It feels wonderfully cozy to be in Frieren's world with her. I'm curious what you guys have thought so far, knowing that you've only watched a lot, little bit of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm immediately kind of obsessed with it. And I should say thank you so much. Like, you're the impetus for me watching it. But our listeners have been trying to get us to watch it for a while. They were right. You're right. The premise, and I think this is okay to say because it is the premise of the show is that, you know, the death of Himmel, the hero, which is what starts everything starts her introspection and her emotional sort of awakening, that idea. And we flashback constantly to them. As you know, I check it off your bingo card. I have to talk about Westworld season one. Westworld season one. She's walking that same path that she walked before and remembering what it was like. There's this will they, won't they? Between Frieren and Himmel. But we, the viewer, know they never will because he's died. And it is so much pain to watch. It's a comfort. It is a bomb. It's a cozy show. It's a cup of tea, it's a quilt. But it's also like that very conceit, that very premise of he's so in love with her and she's so oblivious and, you know, she's never going to figure it out before he dies because we already watched him die. And so I'm just going to watch him, like, pine for her and then her regret, not understanding what he meant to her.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, when she goes back and finds him 50 years later and he turns around and he says, frieren. And she says, hill, you're so Old. And she's. The wonderful thing about Frieren is she's blunt, she's tactless. She is so just forthright, cold, removed. She does not connect emotionally with people. And you're right, it is. It's the death of Himmel, the hero that sets this whole thing in motion. And she starts to sob and she's basically like, I didn't. I thought I had more time to get to know him. I thought the sentiment of I thought I had more time is so central to what she's going through. And again, she's immortal. But the time she's now aware of is our time is the human's time, the humans that are around her, you know, and then her making more of an effort to connect with Aizen, to connect with Heiter and try and find them and, and make sure that she is of service to them in their later years because she knows that they are also dying. And that that's how when she comes to Heiter and she's, you know, coming to him to be like, this is the end of your life. Is there anything I can do? He says, will you take this girl on Fearne as an apprentice? And then there's this great episode that is, you know, a ruse. Yeah, a ruse that takes place over many years. That's the other thing that's great about the show is the show is. Is constantly expanding and collapsing time. You know, like when they arrive in a village, you know, Frieren will be like, we could stay here a little while. And Fearne will be like, what's a little while? And Frieren will be like two or three years. It'll take us two or three years to clear this beach or whatever. And so you're just really very kind. Maybe it's because I am middle aged and thinking about time so much and time seems to be to me, speeding up in a way that is really unsettling. The way that Frieren talks about having time and the way that everybody else talks about not having time is so potent and so heartbreaking. You know, there's just. It is a show that is so light and fun, but then about such real heavy, like existential issues. It's absolute dynamite.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

It made me think a lot about Avatar the Last Airbender, you know. Yeah. Like that sort of found family. Yes. There are these big adventures we have, but it's about the relationships that we build, the friends we made along the way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Isn't it always?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And it is like episode to episode them going into towns and having to tackle small problems. The small problems though, that connect them to the people around them and that that's what's. And the younger Fearne and Stark are constantly saying, why are we doing this? Why are we wasting time helping these people clear the beach? And she's like. Or why. Why does Himmel have statues everywhere?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I love the statues.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's this idea of like, make people's lives better, make people's lives easier and they will remember you. You know, like that is your legacy is to have helped these people, not to have slain the dragon or whatever. That's great. But you know, like, it's just, oh boy, do I love this.

[Mallory Rubin]

And also like to learn that you can slay the dragon by yourself. You know, in Stark's case, I get a real kick out of Stark. I love him. Yeah, I'm absolutely loving it and Adam's loving it. It's like we're, we're. I think the first season's 28 episodes, so like we've barely, you know, barely begun our journey. But just the first 10 especially because where we are through right now is the, these demon confrontations, the multi arc stretch that is like really intense in terms of thinking about like morality and what you get to decide about like

[Jason Mantzoukas]

what is good, who is good and who is bad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's getting quite, really complex. Yeah. And very complex.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And what's really interesting. And neither of you have gotten there yet, and this is not a spoiler, I don't think, but the second half of season one is in its entirety a test. It is. They are being. They have to achieve a certain grade of witchcraft, of mastery over magic, which Frieren has above and beyond. But. And so what you're doing is like they're just building out the world and then giving you really all these unique and fun puzzles to get them involved.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Like you said, existential. There is something deeply philosophical. Philosophical and existential about it. It's quite poignant and moving. It's like very smart and deft. I, I have found it like very entertaining and compelling, but also deeply moving. I mean the log line of like Limberg, Ben Limberg. Our colleague Ben Limberg was the first person who pitched it to me actually. And he pitched it as like, much like I think many of the Bhad Bhabies have. It's basically like Lord of the Rings ends and then.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. Which was obviously.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, it's like George R.R. martin being like, what's Aragon's tax policy? You know what I Mean or whatever.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're a little crazy. The baby orcs and the little cradles.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. What happens after Robert's Rebellion?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And that's what this is. Like, this Beyond Journey's End is the title of the show. Like, once that big, once the big story's over, what next?

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. And, like, to use the familiar archetypes that if you are a fan of Lord of the Rings, you're gonna like. Okay, so we have art that's all really great and really fun, but when Lindbergh pitched it to me and he was describing it about grief, I was like, I don't know if this is the right time. And then when you pitched it to me, when I saw you and Halo had just died, you were like. I think that's why you would love it because. Sorry.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like, why are you apologizing?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think, like, it is very much about, like, missing people, but it's about. The way you put it to me was like. It's about, like, learning to feel the gift of those memories.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Keeping them in your mind.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, like, that's been really lovely. And, like, it's sad to. To think about loss as I'm watching. I think that's why we've been going very slowly through it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But

[Mallory Rubin]

it has been very cathartic, too, to just think about, I don't know, how the new experiences that you have in your life and the new bonds that you form allow you to think back with grief and sorrow and longing, but also just with so much gratitude and that so much of life is a journey toward gratitude and appreciation. So I really loved that part of it. And I think, like, you know, this was early.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like this.

[Mallory Rubin]

God, it might be, like, the second episode, but, like, the blue flowers, like, looking to put the. Yeah, the blue flowers on Himmel's statue.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And just, like, I loved Himmel and taking the time. Taking the time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Taking the time to find them and just, like, do something that also is fleeting because those flowers will die and they won't be there next time, but means something. It's like the, like, shit's paying attention to things. It's how we show love. You know, it's the Bill and Frank, Last of Us idea. And, like, that's just been really nice. And then, yeah, we're always talking about, you know, time. Now I have the Buffy angel version of that, which has been really fun. And I always like to think about, like, you know, Loki and Thor and Jane and, like, say goodbye. And, like, it made me think Too. Of like Durin and Elrond and in Rings of Power. And when Elrond shows up and it's been 20 years and his friend is like, you just like, forgot about me. What are you talking about?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Totally. Oh, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that idea of perspective and the way that Frieren is just learning to appreciate the people and like, that's been cool when they go to these different towns and communities, the statues and the way that these heroes and like, for us in story, in the world of story and culture, like these. These archetypes, right, that like, that has sustained these villages. Like this thing that happened there. And the idea that it is worth remembering and worth remarking up. And like, the promises, you know, the promises that someone will return to help them again. And then Frieren, a person who had not. Or a mage, an elf who had not thought about that then being in the position to be the one to ensure that that, like, prophecy can be fulfilled.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And she is largely forgotten.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like, it is Himmel the hero who. The statues are all of Himmel.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's very rare. Is it that there's a statue of all four of them. It happens, but very rare. But it's Himmel the hero all. And then every once in a while, someone will be like, he traveled with an Elven mage. Do you know her? You know, and I don't know if

[Mallory Rubin]

this will be a recurring through line. I assume so. But the way that there are different kind of legends around her, like, it's like Frieren the Slayer is where I am now.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm like, well, and you also get to meet. This is also a world that. She is one of very few elves left alive. Like tremendously few. So in those instances in the future where you do meet another elves, it's very impactful. Or there's. Without just giving too many things away. There are also a couple of instances where they find statues of people they don't recognize. It's not a statue of Himmel the hero. It's a statue of. Let's just say, the hero of the south, who I will name but not say anything else about. That's season two. And absolutely my favorite episode of season two is about the hero of the South. It is electric storytelling. I think I've watched it all, like I said, so many times. I had spinal fusion surgery last year and was in bed for about six weeks and watched it over and over and over. It is the most satisfying watch. It is so each. It is so rewarding to keep digging into it. It Is like a perfect storybook. You know, there's just something. And what they're doing in season two. Super interested. That's the other thing is. Is, like, you think it's going. You think you understand what it's doing. And like I said, the back half of season one is this large exam that they all are taking. Sort of, you know, this kind of. It's in this different architecture.

[Joanna Robinson]

The trial.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then in season two, back to kind of itinerant, moving towards Aureole, kind of on our path towards Mount Doom or, you know, whatever, and all of the kind of little adventures there are.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Guys, come on.

[Mallory Rubin]

We're loving it now. Can I get you recommendation?

[Joanna Robinson]

One other thing I want to say is, like, that structure that I find that love story structure really profound as it relates to what you were saying about grief. Because there's this. The way in which you're watching. I'm only five episodes in, but the way in which it seems to me that, like, Himmel was in love with her, and she is sort of realizing that she was. Was in love with him. And she is falling in love with him to a certain degree via her memories of him. And as she revisits and understands him better and thinks about it more and views him from a different perspective, like, she's like, oh, this person was so much more important to me than I appreciated at the time. And then I realized. And so I think that is such a huge part of what grief is or can be, is just this sort of like, even deepening of a bond. You already, you know, he was already a good friend of her, but in the loss of him and then in the memory of him and in this journey that physically takes her from memory to memory to memory, she falls in love with him in a way that is just so. I mean, human and so us.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, yeah. And it really is so very much about her having to force herself to think about a tiny fraction of her life. These 10 years that she spent with this party of heroes is just a. She is, again, thousands of years old for her. So she's excavating it because it was. She's realizing how impactful and important it was. And in fact, those relationships and the relationships now with Fern and Stark are, as the show goes on, foundationally changing her in an incredible way.

[Joanna Robinson]

And how it change. Yeah, to your point, how it changes how she can connect to people now.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, so I'm obsessed with this show, and another friend of mine also obsessed with this show. Rishikeshirway.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Who is, you know, a friend of mine. And we're talking about it, blah, blah, blah. And have you watched Freerancy? Oh, we're watching it. I watched amazing. Blah, blah, blah. We're going back and forth. And so. And I was saying, I'm just gonna. I, I, I clipped this because I was like, oh, I want. My other recommendation is a recommendation from Rishi. And this was the text back and forth. He says, apothecary Diaries, question mark. And I say, haven't watched. I loved Delicious in Dungeon. That was one of my recommendations, which is also fantastic. But he says, apothecary Diaries is great. And then this is what made me immediately. I'm not kidding. Immediately. Press play. On episode one of Apothecary Diaries. He says, an upstairs, downstairs house MD set in feudal China. Jane Austen.

[Joanna Robinson]

Y.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Will they, won't they? But also a medical mystery procedural. And I was like, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[Joanna Robinson]

I can tell you my experience with Rishi is that, like, nobody gives a specific recommendation better than he does.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's the greatest. It is the Apothecary Diaries. There's only two seasons of it. So again, another. Because one of my things with anime is a lot of these shows have massive catalogs of episodes. Can't do it. I'm not gonna do it. But this, I was like, there was only one season, I think, when he recommended it. So I was like, yes. And I got this. Do you have either of you?

[Mallory Rubin]

I watched the first one last night.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, great. What'd you think?

[Mallory Rubin]

I will be watching it as soon as I get home tonight.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought it was incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So what? Do you know the setup at all? Okay, so I think Rishi's description is very good. It is in the opening moments of episode one. It's about a younger who is the daughter to an apothecary. It's feudal China. She works in the pleasure district, creating salves and balms and medicines for the sex workers in a brothel. She is kidnapped and sold into essentially slavery in the rear palace where all the emperor's courtesans live. Courtesans or concubines. Concubines, sorry. Where the emperor's concubines live. And she is meant to be just like a servant there. But then they slowly realize that she has an apothecary skill set. And so they start to put her to work solving the mysteries of the palace. So it is palace intrigue. It is also a will they, won't they? Between her and the guy that runs the Rear Palace Master Jinshi, who is. Well, I won't say anything more about.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're all eunuchs. So there's a little bit of a. For Thrones fans, a little missy and the worm energy here, which I'm enjoying only one episode in.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And so it really becomes this story where she is trying. She's. She just exists now in this new world and is. Maomao is her name and she is one of my all time favorite characters in stories. Now I'm obsessed with this character because she is, it is. It's like it is a medical. It's a mystery procedural, but it's always building out these character relationships and these character dynamics that she has with the other ladies in waiting with the staff of the Rear Palace. All this intrigue, all of these assassination attempts. There's so much going on. And her cursory knowledge of and ability to. She's also obsessed with poisons.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not just that they exist, but she wants to drink them all. She wants to drink all poisons to see what they do learn on the job. She's like really into like getting poisonous, being poisoned. She becomes a taster and she's. And there's a great moment where she's like, she's just like being a taster and she's like, oh, it's good. Everything's good. And then she's like, this is poison and it's awesome and it's just, it's Glee. It's absolutely. This show is fantastic. And then similarly to Frieren, they make big moves in later storylines that aren't so that it doesn't just feel like, you know, like case of the week because it does feel like a little bit of what we were saying we wished for. Spider Noir. It does feel in season one like kind of case of the Wiki while it establishes all these relationships, which I think is really smart. And then season two kind of cracks it open into those relationship flipping it so that those relationships become the focus and the case of the week kind of fades a little bit. Really fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was wondering about that because I just, I watched the first episode before bed last night. Loved it, excited to watch more. But I wasn't sure what that. Because it does have the likes. The setup of. Okay. And then she'll, she'll. They now know that she has this skill. Also I love just the little detail of like she's the only serving girl who can read. So like she kind of outs herself as like the one who left this clue because he write it's that was like. Those little details were really.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There's a character you're going to love coming up.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm. I'm excited.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The other MAU MAU, they're also very excited for you.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a lot. A lot of hot people in the show. A lot of hot cartoons. You know, I love a hot cartoon cartoon. But I was curious about the balance of case of the week versus bigger story because I've got hot D brain. But it had a little bit of a House of the Dragon like in the first episode. But maybe that's just that case is the emperor's difference and their different kids.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Certainly that's a component of it, but it's not. Every case is about that.

[Joanna Robinson]

How long are the episodes?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

22 minutes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So much story in the.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was like an incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And you barely have scratched the surface. There's. And that's the thing they do very well is it just keeps revealing. A much larger story is at play. A much larger. All of these people are actually connected by these three storylines. And it takes her so long to figure a lot of this out. It's dynamite. And it's also this and Frieren, I also think in particular are beautiful. They're not just great shows. Great stories, immersive storytelling, artistically beautifully rendered.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I ask you a really important question?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are you a sub guy or a dub guy?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, great question. So for Frieren, I watch it the first time through subtitles. I watch it in Japanese. And then all my subsequent rewatches are in English. And the actors are great. For Apothecary Diaries, I did the same thing for the shows like Jujutsu Kaisen. For the more just fighty, actiony shows, I just listened to the English dub. Cause I'm there mostly for the spectacle and less the immersive storytelling.

[Joanna Robinson]

Got it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And so. But these shows I watch first time through. Cause I've watched both of them a lot. Cause there's only two seasons of both of these shows. So it is. You can do it over and over again. But the. The people they have doing the English dub are terrific. Free Ren especially. And MAU MAU is. Is. Whoever's doing that voice is great in.

[Mallory Rubin]

In Apothecary Diaries, I'm doing the subs subtitles so far. First time. Which is, I think, a good way to do it. It obviously just, you know, practically. It can't be like looking down at like a sandwich or something.

[Joanna Robinson]

You love to look at your sandwich.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, as you guys both know, we do like to like sit at our TV trades and like us can gotta be like locked in for the subs. But it's been really fun to maybe

[Jason Mantzoukas]

not to jump back to spider Noir, but remember the scene where Nicolas Cage is eating the sandwich in front of the telephone booth, waiting for the phone call?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. That was incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's eating this scene like he's eating this sandwich. It is just chomp, chomp, chomp.

[Joanna Robinson]

That was great. That was good. Wonderful.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Both of these shows I think are 10 out of 10. Like master. I think Frieren is a master masterpiece.

[Joanna Robinson]

Crunchyroll is the watch.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Crunchyroll.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're both on Netflix right now though. They are both on Netflix.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did not know.

[Joanna Robinson]

I just wanted to support Crunchyroll because Tyler from Crunchyroll has been emailing me

[Mallory Rubin]

for a little while. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Shout out Tyler.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shout out, Tyler.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So I'll just throw a delicious. And dungeon. Incredible show.

[Mallory Rubin]

What a ton of it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is. Characters, similarly, adventurers. They're not heroes, they're adventurers. They're exploring a dungeon that appears to have no bottom. They are traveling into elements and areas that have never been been traveled before. They're looking for treasure, they're looking for this, they're looking for that. But what this show is unique is they are constantly coming across monsters and flora and fauna that are trying to attack them and kill them and all this stuff. And when they do and they win, one of their warrior sets up and cooks it all. So the show starts down for meal prep and eating. I've seen a clip from this wonderful. Cause he's like, you know, and I just take this, the scorpion and I cut the tip off and it does all the film language of like Master Chef. Not one of those kind of like a cooking show. It becomes all of the film language of those shows. And it's awesome.

[Mallory Rubin]

Top Chef, delicious dungeon.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There's a show called that I'm now 10 episodes in into that I feel like you guys would like which is called Ascendance of a Bookworm.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh my God. Well, you have us from the title alone, obviously.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is about a woman who is like. I'm gonna say like a 20 year old woman. Something like that. I think she's college or just out of college librarian, obsessed with books. Love it dies. Oh, is this is the opening moments of the show is reborn into a world without books. And the show is about her?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh no.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She's also a child. She's like 5 or 6 years old or something like that. But she still has the knowledge Of a. And she's in. The world is kind of like medieval almost. You know what I mean? And there are no books or there are so few books and nobody knows how to read. She knows how to read. She can count. She knows numbers. So she's like a six year old who's like. Immediately like. People are like, what's your deal, man? And she's just obsessed with making books and all about books and reading and stories and. And it's terrific.

[Joanna Robinson]

So this is like Himesh Patel telling everyone about the Beatles.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's very similar. Yes, very similar. I mentioned a bunch of other stuff. I'm going to mention a couple of more things. Genndi Tartakovsky's Primal is maybe the single best masterpiece of visual storytelling because there is no dialogue. It is just a caveman befriends a dinosaur as if it's his pet. And they. And it is just visually a masterpiece. You cannot believe what an incredible bit of visual storytelling the TV show Primal is. I'm gonna go away from animation for a brief moment here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Just because I think you guys will like this if you don't know it yet. Are you familiar with the Mark Gaddis show Bookish?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

I've not seen it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What do you think, Johanna Robinson, about Bookish?

[Joanna Robinson]

I love it. I'm obsessed with it. Yeah, Yeah. I love. I think he's so funny.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Same, same. I think it's great. It's worth seeking out. It is a Sherlock Holmesian post World War II detective show set in like a very post World War II London. And Mark Gaddis working with the police to help solve mysteries. Great, great, great stuff. And last but not least, I will ask you, Joanna Robinson, specifically, how do you feel about season 21 of Taskmaster?

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it seriously season 21?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It is. Currently season 21 is airing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ah, we call it Kumail season.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's the Kumail Nanjiani season. Oh, yeah, Kumail,

[Joanna Robinson]

your season of Taskmaster,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

season 19 was one of the most

[Joanna Robinson]

important things that's ever happened in my life because you are a real crossover breakout into the US Market of Taskmaster big time. And I had friends that I was trying to get watch Taskmaster for literally like eight years.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And finally they watched it because A, it's a bit more accessible on YouTube now, and B, they're like, oh, Jason Benzookis is on. I'll watch.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, I. That's how I got friends to watch it who I couldn't get to watch on. I had to be on it.

[Mallory Rubin]

This Season is Mansookian. When.

[Joanna Robinson]

When we ran into each other at Matteo and you were like, hi, Joanna Robinson. We're meeting each other face to face the first time. And I was like, I would like to now grill you about your experience on Taskmaster. It hadn't even premiered yet. And I was like, well, tell me, does this happen on Taskmaster? And does this happen on Taskmaster? This season is. Is really good. It's funny watching Kumail, I feel like he's kind of trying to do what you did, but your energy is so distinct. And his energy is so distinct that, like, it's reading completely different.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah. Well, I think. I don't know that he's trying to. Well, he had. I will say this. He had not seen mine when he did it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So because of when mine aired and when he shot.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He is doing what he chose to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Which I love. Because I think. And I do. And I don't think I'm wrong. I think Camille would say this. I think Camille wants to.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I did not.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, no. You just wanted to cause chaos.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

My whole thing was, if I'm winning, I can't be doing my thing. Yes. And I said as much to Alex. I said, listen, you cannot let me win because I then can't. I have to be able to operate from behind. My whole bit only works if I'm losing.

[Joanna Robinson]

As a Taskmaster veteran, a veteran of

[Jason Mantzoukas]

the Taskmaster wars, maybe that is, like the greatest. The greatest reference of my. I like it. It was the greatest experience. Work wise. Yeah. Go ahead.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you feel about the egg bit in season 20?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm loving it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm loving it.

[Joanna Robinson]

So, okay. The premise of Taskmaster, right, Is that they assemble a panel of comedians, and they have previously. How long ago do you tape the tasks?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It depends. Season to season. But, you know, like, within. Within the previous six months, you've probably come for a couple of instances to shoot.

[Joanna Robinson]

You've been filmed to complete all of the. And then the show is the comedians assemble in studio, and each episode, they break up the tasks into, like, let's say, five, four or five tasks at a time. And there's interstitial of the comedians in the studio. But once you get in the studio and this has happened a couple times, some contestants will find out that there was a task that was only assigned to them and to no one else. And one of the panelists this season, this is the worst it's ever been. Cause usually it's just, like, one task. Oh, I had to, like, count all these P's or whatever. And nobody else had to. And this season, he has been given an egg that he has to keep on his person at all times and not break it. So it's, like, hooked to him in this little, like, harness that he's in a protective case.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But in the tasks, he's got it built into his head.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. And it has to. When a signal is given, he has to be able to present his egg at any given moment within 30 seconds. But he's the only person in the entire show.

[Mallory Rubin]

What happens?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But he doesn't know that.

[Mallory Rubin]

What happens if he breaks it? What happens? What if he drops it?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Who knows?

[Mallory Rubin]

Who knows? He's not broken the egg.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Here's the thing about Taskmaster. It's a big. Who cares?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's. He's not benefiting from it. He's not losing anything from it. But you feel like, I gotta do this task. I gotta do this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Alex tells me I have to do it, so I have to do it. So, like, it's such an elaborate. He had to have an unbroken egg on him, the same egg at allegedly at all times. And none of the rest of the contestants had to do it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, it's so funny. And they. It's this guy. It couldn't have been a better person. Joel is. Is. He has the childlike wonder of a person. He's delighted to be there. He's having the best time. It's working. But I think it would have been. If anybody else had gotten it, it would have been a much different story.

[Mallory Rubin]

One of my favorite.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree. Cause they would have been like, people speak. Some people can be.

[Mallory Rubin]

So what was your specific task?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I didn't get one. So my season didn't have a one person gets singled out task. It only happens every once in a while. There was one Mark had to eat text them every day. And he did it for, like, a year.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then they were like, it wasn't

[Joanna Robinson]

a real task in the studio.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That was just a prank.

[Joanna Robinson]

You don't understand how much of my life has been spent doing this. It's so funny. I also love Joanna Paige, who's on this season, who I know from Gavin and Stacy, but, like, she's one of the welshest people you'll ever meet. And there's just this, like, energy of a certain contest contestant where it's just like, mom energy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's like Rosie Ramsey in my season.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Kooky mom energy. And they're just like, just the blend of comedians that they get is so incredible.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

She does a thing that I love on a Taskmaster season that happens only every once in a while. And I think because she is. They are really letting her run with it or they're including her because she's so good. And also she does a thing where she just starts telling a story. She just starts telling a story about her life. And it's all about, like, the time she clogged the toilet at her in law's house and they had to get a plunger and this and that. So that gets her into. And that's why I've brought a plunger here today, you know, and her stories are so fantastic and she's so funny. And I don't know Gavin and Stacey. So one of the things that I love about Taskmaster is it is, for me, an introduction to so many people that I previously either did not know or have only a cursory understanding of. Like, I know what Gavin and Stacy is. Never seen it.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would say 90% of British comedians that I know, I know from. And they're like some of my favorite, you know, like, oh, yeah. So like. But Armando Inucci is like one of the panelists this season, and.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And watching him do the goofiest stuff is so satisfying.

[Joanna Robinson]

My discovery from your season was Fatiha,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

who was like, incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

So funny. But similarly, like, she could just start telling a story, and you just let her tell her story about her Batman bedroom or whatever, let her cook.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Because you shoot for like, we would shoot for like three and a half, four hours to be cut down into like 45 minutes. And a lot of it was just Fatiha telling stories that were so fucking funny that they would just let her go because it was like we were enjoying it so much. Yeah, great, Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also feel that, like. Cause the UK SNL that just launched, they have like, a couple former Taskmaster games.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. They have Anya, they have Emma. CD is on there.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I'm just sort of like, I feel slightly ahead because I'm like, I know you from Taskmaster.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I love it. This season is great. I'll say. If you're not a Taskmaster fan, start with season 19, of course. Obviously, then my other favorite seasons would be 5, 7. Sam Campbell.

[Joanna Robinson]

What are my numbers? Like, what are the Sam Campbell seasons?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

5 is Aisling Bee and Nish Kumar and the legend Bob Mortimer.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, my God.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Incredible seven is James Acaster, Rod Gilbert and that crew. Absolutely. Sam Campbell is 15 or 13. No, I can't remember. Somewhere in those that run is Sam Australian comedian Sam Campbell, who is one of the most unique comedic voices I've heard in a decade, cannot break him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Never been broken.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Have you seen last one Laughing?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes. Last one Laughing is so him and

[Jason Mantzoukas]

David Mitchell going head to head as and like, screaming in each other's faces. Not laughing is some of the most bananas stuff I've ever seen.

[Joanna Robinson]

They broke the show. They broke the show.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Season one of the last one, Laughing. Laughing had my favorite duo, which is Bob Mortimer, who is a full genius, and Richard Aoadi, who I think is the funniest person alive. And those two trying to break people and trying to team up and break other people or break each other.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, like watching Richard break, which never happens, but broke on that show. Joe Wilkinson's one of my favorite of all time. Who? Taskmaster, of course.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The potato.

[Joanna Robinson]

Laughing like, oh, my God, the potato.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The potato.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's. That's my favorite. That might be my favorite.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's a great one. I mean, what. And that's two. What is that? That's like. Yeah. This season, I think, is a great ensemble. I'm very into it. I was just back in London and had lunch with my whole cast. We had the best time. The lunch lasted nine hours. It was crazy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I just tell you, maybe to, like, get you into Jason's season of his. His lure is not enough for you. One of his co panelists, Matthew Bainton, is where the shortest shorts that have ever existed.

[Mallory Rubin]

You pick one outfit, like, like Paul Mescal shorts, shorter.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Did you watch British Ghosts?

[Joanna Robinson]

No.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's so funny. And, like, other than you. He was the other person I was most familiar with on YouTube.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes. Well, he is like a superstar.

[Joanna Robinson]

Super famous.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

But he's wearing. You pick like, an outfit, and sometimes it's like a super weird outfit. You know, like, Noel Fielding is, you know, like, wearing that yellow boiler suit sort of thing.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Phil Wang's wearing, like, the jumpsuit, the Kill Bill jumpsuit or the Bruce Lee jumpsuit. Know, you.

[Joanna Robinson]

You pick, like, one thing to wear for all your tasks for, like, continuity reasons and stuff like that. Matthew picks the shortest shorts known to men. And some of these tasks make you, like, crawl around on the ground and all this stuff. And they just had to, like, blur out his.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, his nuts are falling out constantly. And he's the most embarrassed man. He is like, he's mortified, but it's happening constantly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Those are short shards.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, boy, it's so funny.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, they're a little too loose around.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, yeah. They're like runners Short.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's why the nuts are just, like, constantly flopping out.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's so funny. He was. He made me laugh so hard.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm so sorry. I could talk about Task.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's a great season. It's a. My season is probably the best season that's ever been. But. But. But no, please. Everybody should watch Taskmaster. Start right now or. And it's. The beauty of the show is all of it. And in its entirety, every episode is on YouTube for free.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So you can access it immediately.

[Joanna Robinson]

You get caught up at any time.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's great. I want to thank you for the recommendation on this show of lovesick or scrotal recall, as I heard it was called. I didn't know. Fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, my God, it's so good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Obsessed. I want. I. Desperately. I think that me and Daniel Ng or Inge Ings.

[Joanna Robinson]

There's an S on the end.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

O is. Oh, okay. I think he and I need to be in something together being absolute lunatics.

[Joanna Robinson]

Do you feel like he kind of stole your look? Your swag?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not at all. I mean, he looks great. It's not my look. I thought he looked great, though.

[Mallory Rubin]

He would have been a great laughing

[Jason Mantzoukas]

storm if I could pull off a British accent. You know, I was asked to audition for the Lord of the Rings. Not the Lord of the Rings. Of Power. Rings of Power. Asked to audition for Rings of Power. Power. With a very specific British accent. I was told with this British accent. I was like, okay, great. So I hired a dialect coach. I did two sessions with the dialect coach, like, two hours each session. And at the end of the second one, she was like, I don't think you got it. And I was like, I agree with you.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can we hear it?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not even remotely. You can't? No, because I can't do it at all. And I literally called my agent, and I was like, yeah, you can turn it down. I'm not. There's just no way. We're not gonna get there. And truthfully, I was like, I'm underwater with that. I couldn't wrap my head around it now.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm just devastated that we don't have you on Rings of Power.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I know, right? Wouldn't that be funny?

[Mallory Rubin]

What if you had gone in and just made a completely different choice? You could have been the megawatt.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, boy. Yeah. If I'd done it as, like, a

[Joanna Robinson]

rattata tat on top of the world.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm a star. Oh, wow.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The grandior. The grandior. Go of Middle Earth.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hey, is Gadriel here. Yeah. Were you going to be Halbrand?

[Joanna Robinson]

Were you guys and Dolls? I could do this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, man, what a. What a treat this was.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, my God. Come on.

[Mallory Rubin]

Come back.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, come back whenever you want me. Whenever you want me. I mean, there's so many things to talk about.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we don't want to. I mean, we want you back for Shadow Lord Season 2, but we don't want to wait.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We can do it before that. Yeah, we've got stuff on the horizon. I mean, you bring me in whenever you want.

[Mallory Rubin]

What are you most excited for the

[Joanna Robinson]

rest of this year in the nerd summer hype?

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a good question.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What's in the hype right now?

[Mallory Rubin]

We've got the Odyssey coming. We've got a Spider man movie. Hot D, which you already said, eat

[Jason Mantzoukas]

shit, hot D. I'm super excited for the Odyssey.

[Mallory Rubin]

Lanterns.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Lanterns. I'm genuinely curious about. Lanterns is one that, for me, I'm like, it could go great, or it could be kind of just a whatever, you know, if it's a whatever, that's disappointing. But if it works and it. But it. I'm a little nervous. I will say I'm a little nervous, but I have high hopes. Star wars is. I'm always looking for more Star wars, but, boy, it's tough. It's tough out here now that Andor is over. It's tough out here to be looking forward to Star wars stories right now. I still wish we would get the daemon's original script, the Lakeith Stansfield Protestant

[Joanna Robinson]

Reformation inside of Force.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, there's a lot that I want Star wars to do that I just don't think. I mean, I'm still waiting for Dark Disciple. I'm still waiting for a Quinlan Vos appearance. There's people and stuff that I'm interested in, but nothing right now that I'm like, ah, I can't wait for them to do this, you know, because it doesn't seem like they want to do this.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where are you in the other D.C. stuff? You excited for Supergirl? Clayface.

[Joanna Robinson]

Clayface. Supergirl.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm super excited for. I loved that. I thought that book was incredible. So I'm very excited for that. Just conceptually, I think if that. If they do a good job adapting that book, I think it's great. I'm excited. I'm very much enjoying James Gunn's dc, so from Creature Commandos to Superman TV film, I think so far, I'm very satisfied. Marvel, yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Where's your doomsday hype? Do you Check the countdown clock every single day.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't. I don't know jack about doomsday. I'm like out. It's not that I'm out.

[Joanna Robinson]

What about the Vision show? I'm very excited about that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Super curious. Of course. I'm super curious about what that'll be because I think they are what I. Oh and let me be clear. I loved Wonder Man. I felt Wonder man was terrific in a way that I was like do this. Just don't worry about the larger story or the multiverse or the this or the of that. Just tell me a story about characters. Give me a slice of life. And I mean I really appreciated also that it was like out of work struggling actors in Hollywood. Like so much of it rang true. Trying to do a self tape. Oh my God, it was so good. And. And I think he's dynamite malls that

[Mallory Rubin]

they were going to.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was like incredible. A new LA resident. Joey.

[Mallory Rubin]

Joey Pants's house.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Oh my God. So funny. And I thought he was so good. Yehia or Yahya.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yaya. Thank you. I thought he was so good. And then flip. I'm watching him now in the man on Fire series which is. He's incredible in that. In a completely different lane. I thought he was fantastic in ambulance. I think he's great. But like the one two punch in this year of Wonder man and man on Fire are incredible. This guy is fantastic because Wonder man is so.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was so stealthily like funny and you know, like.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And insecure.

[Joanna Robinson]

How seriously he took himself was so funny. And then I imagine man on Fire is not a laugh a minute.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not at all. It's just a action shoot em up. You know it's based on the movie. It's. You know, it's a prequel for the Denzel character in that movie. And it's fantastic in that way that like all of the uncle shows that I watch. Your Bosches. You're justified. You know all those shows that I. You're. I will shout out the best show on television that nobody watching or talking about. I don't think you guys would cover it. But I'm still shocked that the watch isn't covering it. Is Dark Wind is the Tony Hillerman books is unreal. I think this show is. Zahn McClarnon is unbelievable. That single episode of Westworld, I was like what the fuck?

[Joanna Robinson]

A Kichita. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

All of his stuff in Fargo, unreal. And this show. He is exceptional and should be winning every award if awards matter, which they don't. But he is electric to watch in this show. And the show is phenomenal.

[Joanna Robinson]

Which season was Robert Redford showed up for?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Like him and George R.R. martin are in a prison cell in season three at the beginning of season three. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. That show I think is a absolutely phenomenal watch and a world that is just every season they are excavating more and more of these stories and more and more of these characters. And it is. And servicing a procedural kind of, you know, who done it every time. And it's awesome.

[Joanna Robinson]

Excellent.

[Mallory Rubin]

Make Chris and Andy talk about it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

These idiots.

[Mallory Rubin]

I thought they.

[Joanna Robinson]

They started with that.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Did they?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't know.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know if they kept kept up with it, but I know they started okay.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They better.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would feel worse if they hadn't started or they had and they hadn't told you.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

By the way, the ladder lad. Cuz it took me a couple of years to get Chris to watch Shoresy. I recommended it so many times because of sports. I was like I think you'd like this. It's sports.

[Joanna Robinson]

Have you heard of sports? This show does it. But Canadian sports. Jason, thank you so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

This was such a treat, such a pleasure.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is one of my absolute favorite shows. I listen to you guys. I spend so many hours a week with you both in my ears. It is truly absolutely wonderful to be here. Thank you for.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's my last question for all of us. Lamour Morris, Emmy winner. Morris, yes.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

For Fargo, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Uh huh. Fantastic in this. Jake Johnson, incredible in the spider verse movies. What is Max Greenfield's to round out?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, great question.

[Joanna Robinson]

The new girl.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which should he be?

[Joanna Robinson]

Which spider project is for him?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's a great question.

[Joanna Robinson]

Boy hobbits and dragonsmail.com. yeah, Sony, are you listening? Put Max Greenfield in a spider joke.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Let's figure it out.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's deserves.

[Mallory Rubin]

He'd be great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, he would.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you Jason, you're the best. Come back soon. And thank you not only to Jason obviously for being such a wonderful guest today. What a treat this was. Thank you to the rest of the crew. Carlos, Scott, Jacob ct, Arjuna Jomi, the whole gang helping us out as always. We will be back next week for an already out of date but still sincerely enthusiastic, 2026 summer hype meter. Joe will have a Lestat primer and a fictional musical bands episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's more of like like a fictional bands episode. Less le primer, more a very musical

[Mallory Rubin]

house of priming you for the mood of watching Sam Reed as leat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sing while covered in scars on stage.

[Joanna Robinson]

Correct.

[Mallory Rubin]

And we'll be talking about.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Did you go to the concert?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's. No, Next week. Right next to me. Oh.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh. It hasn't happened yet. Okay. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

She'll be there in spirit.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will.

[Mallory Rubin]

She'll be there in spirit. All right. Come back soon.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Can't wait.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's. It's too big to hold with one hand.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what this is exactly? It's the people who do the memes about, like, they read a line from Romantasy, and it's like, it was so big, I couldn't hold it in one hand. And then they're holding, like, a jar of pickles, and it's like, that can't. That's not a thing. That's what this water bottle is like. And then the straw is not soft and supple. It's, like, really hard.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Okay, now it's trending back to Romantasy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Isn't it always?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Soft, supple straw. That's how it should be. I wrap my lips around this soft, supple straw.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's rock hard and not in a good way,

[Jason Mantzoukas]

but by the way. Oh. What?

[Mallory Rubin]

Karma?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not karma. I think. I think. I think Joanna's water ball just came for us all. Joanna's water bottle is so horny. From your water bottle. Wow. This is what House of R is all about.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can someone come help, please?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is in the show, right? This better all be in the show.

[Mallory Rubin]

This can be the stinger.