'Stranger Things' Season 5, Episode 7 Deep Dive

Summary

House of R – 'Stranger Things' Season 5, Episode 7: “The Bridge” Deep Dive

Podcast: House of R, The Ringer
Hosts: Joanna Robinson & Mallory Rubin
Date: December 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this insightful, often hilarious, and deeply affectionate deep dive, Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin break down "Stranger Things" Season 5, Episode 7 ("The Bridge")—the penultimate episode of the entire series. Recorded in their holiday pajamas, the hosts process the high stakes, emotional reunions, big reveals, world-building deepening, and mounting lore as Netflix's flagship series barrels toward its epic finale.

The hosts bring their signature blend of deep textual analysis, listener engagement, playful banter, and a deluge of theories—about time travel, character deaths, D&D lore, 80s references, and of course, the fate of Ted Wheeler. They discuss the show's emotional core, its mythology reveals about the Upside Down, character arcs, fan reactions, and what they hope (and fear) from the finale.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Where We Are in 'Stranger Things'

• Joanna and Mallory clarify: They have not seen the finale and are theorizing alongside the audience.
• "We're with all of you, in the dark. Alone and scared and wondering what's to come for our faves as they head into the Upside Down." (Joanna, 04:43)
• Reminder: Everything up through S5E7 is on the table, but no spoilers from stage show material are included.

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2. Listener Mailbag Highlights (06:40–14:43; throughout)

• Commercial Easter Eggs: Listeners noticed actors from the show appearing in commercials (e.g. Karen Wheeler's Tide ad, Jonathan & Nancy's credit card spot) and how possible prop clues hint at their plot importance, like the flamethrower.
  • "I have to assume that the flamethrower is going to play a very pivotal role at the end." (Mallory, 08:46)
• The Forgotten Parents: Recurring listener/fan joke: no one checking on Ted Wheeler. Hosts also lament the lack of follow-up on Max’s mom and other parents’ fates in post-apocalypse Hawkins.
• High School History Ignored: Confusion over why Hopper & Joyce haven’t referenced their known high school connection to Henry Creel, despite in-show confirmation. ("I'm just baffled that this hasn't come up." – Mallory, 11:49)
• Pop Culture References: Fans (and the hosts) bristle at “Rise of Skywalker” comparisons, prefer the show’s true 80s inspiration ("Goonies did it first!"), and celebrate D&D and Lord of the Rings nods.

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3. Reactions to Season 5’s Storytelling Structure (15:21–22:51)

• S5E7 is the “calm before the storm,” reminiscent of great battle setup episodes (e.g., "A Night of the Seven Kingdoms" from Game of Thrones).
• Concern over time left to resolve mythology, while maintaining emotional character moments, heightened by Duffer Brothers’ promises to "tie up the remaining loose ends and answer any questions that remain.” (Mallory, quoting Deadline, 16:48)
  • Joanna’s worry: a checklist approach to resolving threads may overshadow the emotional aspect that makes the show great.
  • Mallory counters with faith, rooted in the show’s history of strong season finales: “They tend to nail the balance front and centering the characters.” (20:07)

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4. Character Moments & Emotional Payoffs

Max & Lucas’s Reunion (24:12–32:53)

• The powerful emotional core: Max waking from coma, her first reunion with Lucas, anchored by the show’s signature needle drop ("When It's Cold I'd Like To Die" by Moby – a shortcut to pain).
  • "Turns out the whole time I didn't even need it. I just needed you. Just you." (Max to Lucas, paraphrased, 29:30)
  • "Sadie and Caleb… are just like, yeah, they're amazing. Heads and shoulders above everyone else." (Joanna, 30:07)
• Both hosts lament missing emotional beats and the underused parent drama, especially the handwavey handling of Max’s mom.

Medical Realism and Vicky the Candy Striper (33:12–37:06)

• Laughter and exasperation at Vicky, a student hospital volunteer, suddenly becoming Max’s medical expert ("I don't believe in wearing shoes inside, as you know, but… you don't put feet on the podcast." – Joanna, 10:42).
• Noted realism gap: "You can't just, like, fast forward through this sort of thing." (Joanna, 34:39)

Team Erica, Murray & Mr. Clark (40:23–44:24)

• A highlight is the levity and scientific curiosity in this group, especially Mr. Clark’s “speak ‘friend’ and enter” Lord of the Rings joke.
  • "Nothing maybe has ever been better in Stranger Things to me than that… If you know, you know.” (Joanna, 41:27)
• The Voyager call-signs evoke science/nature motif and scientific awe.

Mike’s First Time in the Upside Down (45:29–47:39)

• Hosts note the missed emotional opportunity of showing Mike’s first time in the Upside Down, drawing a parallel to Avengers Endgame’s “raise your hand if you’ve been to space” beat.

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5. Plot & Lore Explanations: The Abyss, the Bridge & the Pain Tree

The “Pain Tree,” Vecna’s Lair, & D&D/Mythology Parallels (51:25–54:24)

• Hosts explore how Vecna’s lair visually echoes both a skeletal hand and a spider—a deliberate tie to D&D lore (“the Hand of Vecna”) and his own monologuing about spiders.
  • "It looks like this thing that in D&D lore is very associated with, like, the power that you could tap into… but also the evil that you would be welcoming into your life." (Mallory, 52:11)
  • Connection to his worldview and why he preys “on the weak” ("They are gods of our world, the most important of all predators… They bring balance and order…" – quoting Vecna).

Timeline & Exotic Matter Debate (77:32–86:37)

• Intense, step-by-step parsing of the show's timeline as revealed by Dustin's lore dump about the Abyss and the role of Brenner.
  • “Is this correct? You can travel between… the dimensions before the upside down wormhole bridge exists?...” (Mallory, 82:02)
  • Grappling with paradoxes about when the Upside Down was created, how it’s frozen in time, and how Brenner’s research fits—a demonstration of Mallory’s timeline expertise.
  • “I feel like this is a case where it probably does all work or they will be able to make it work. What I don't love about it is… having to, like, stop on the eve of the end… and think this actively about whether this is all going to like, click into place and work.” (Mallory, 85:00)

Holly’s Horror, the Kids in the Pain Tree, and Vecna’s Tactics (89:17–94:30)

• Discussion of Holly’s attempted escape from the pain tree, her struggle, the “Vecna yo-yo,” and why Vecna might actually have saved her mid-fall.
  • “Let me recap a few things. So last pod, Jo: Steve is right, Eddie died for nothing. This pod, Jo: Vecna saved Holly’s life. You’re on fire right now.” (Mallory, 58:14)
• Henry’s Lord of the Flies/Yellowjackets-style mind control and why it’s harrowing to watch ("The way in which they are so under his spell and how quickly he turns that into violence, all in the name of the Light…" – Joanna, 90:38).

The "Twelve Kids" Clock Theory (93:42–94:09; 116:30)

• Mallory continues theorizing about the significance of the number twelve—disciples, hands on a clock, D&D symbolism—though Jo notes the snag: Vecna plus 12 kids actually makes 13 at the table.

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6. Team Dynamics & Comic Relief

• Steve’s Beanstalk Plan:
  • Favorite plan demonstrations (flashlight up the Slinky).
  • Steve’s idea gets validation at last ("It’s probably gotta be that." – Mallory, 97:41).
• Robin’s Quip on Steve’s Anatomy:
  • Robin teases Steve ("Steve hears that all the time and goes in anyway, don’t you?" – 95:25), spinning a running joke about Steve’s confidence—an audience hit, if out of character for Robin.
• Nancy’s Gun Mania:
  • Nancy, never missing a beat, arms up as “Rambo Nancy” and bonds with Hopper over commando antics.

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7. Emotional/Character Set Pieces

Steve & Dustin’s Heartfelt Reconciliation (120:04–121:54)

• A much-needed resolution after earlier estrangement:
  • “Instead of just being there for you, I just got angry about it… I really miss you. I miss my best friend.” (Steve, paraphrased, 121:35)
  • “Things were different” lands as a powerful summation of their relationship changes.

Will’s Coming Out Scene (122:11–133:23)

• Mixed feelings from both hosts regarding execution, though both praise Noah Schnapp’s performance and the emotional impact on viewers.
  • “I think it was a huge misfire to have all of these people in the room. …I just feel like I don’t think they nailed it. But again, I’ve been really curious how it lands with other people.” (Joanna, 126:38)
  • "I'm fascinated by the quotes about... this starting... as just a Will and Joyce moment and them feeling like that wasn't working. I'm really surprised by that." (Mallory, 127:35)
  • Listener email highlights the significance of the moment to queer teens, and speculates about how Hopper would have responded to Will’s coming out.
  • Noted: The show actively makes the Vecna tactic of using closeted shame a meta point, connecting Will’s confession—and the series’ ongoing discussion of otherness—directly to the core themes.

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8. Theory Corner Highlights (Common Throughout; especially 61:29–66:13, 138:30 onward)

• Numerous “wild brainstorms” on mechanics for battling Vecna—ranging from 11 flying, Will building a literal beanstalk (capitalizing on vine control hints), to Kali projecting herself as a decoy.
• "Can Will build a beanstalk so we don’t have to do this on Vecna’s clock? …Invite us to the brainstorm; we have some ideas." (Joanna, 62:38)
• Ongoing speculation about time travel (hourglass/circular clock visual clues), the possibility of a tragic or bittersweet final scene set at New Year’s 1990, and—through humor and exasperation—when, if ever, Ted Wheeler will appear again.

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9. Final (Pre-Finale) Predictions and Hopes

• Deaths: Consensus is that the main characters will mostly survive, with Kali (Eight) a likely casualty (perhaps by her own wish). Murray and Ted Wheeler’s fates remain up in the air.
  • "I really hope so. I'm scared still… But I really… hope they're okay." (Mallory, on Steve & Dustin, 143:59)
• Will Eleven Die or Lose Powers?: Most likely to be depowered but survive.
• Will the Finale Stick the Landing?: Both hosts are “nervous but hopeful,” given Duffer promises and the show’s affectionate (if messy) link to emotion and character.
• Hopper’s Threat and Finale Stakes: Debate over Hopper's threat to kill Kali ("That was even for Hop, really weird…"), and whether it will lead to a Joel-and-Ellie, Last of Us–style rupture between him and Eleven if he acts on it.
• Banter on Final Scene: New Year’s Eve, 1990—”We did it. We did the 80s”—posited as a satisfying bookend to the show’s decade.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Lines

• "We're with all of you, in the dark. Alone and scared and wondering what's to come for our faves…"
  — Joanna, 04:43

• "I guess my big hope for the finale is that there's enough time left to give us all of the insights that we're craving...without losing the key space for those character moments…"
  — Mallory, 18:35

• "Turns out the whole time I didn't even need it. I just needed you. Just you."
  — Max to Lucas, 29:30

• "[The flamethrower] is going to play a very pivotal role at the end."
  — Mallory, 08:46

• "Nothing maybe has ever been better in Stranger Things to me than that [Mr. Clark’s Fellowship of the Ring joke]… If you know, you know."
  — Joanna, 41:27

• "Robin, the lesbian, being like, ‘Steve's canonically huge cock... and he does it anyway. Classic Robin joke."
  — Joanna, 96:00

• "Let me recap a few things. So last pod, Jo: Steve is right, Eddie died for nothing. This pod, Jo: Vecna saved Holly’s life. You’re on fire right now."
  — Mallory, 58:14

• "I think it's been really interesting, to think about…how much do they know about season five when they made season four?...I’m excited to know everything in the finale and then try to paste it all together and make a picture that makes sense."
  — Joanna, 55:46

• "Things were different, is like, that. That line really hit for me."
  — Joanna (Steve/Dustin reconciliation), 121:38

• "I think it's very interesting that Hopper isn't there because...I wouldn't expect him...He's got some emotional regulation issues..."
  — Joanna (on Will’s coming out scene), 123:10

• "For Henry to say, like, this is what he showed me, this future...And for Will to say, L, You need me and I need to be there and I'm ready to be. And like, I won't give Henry...control my fear."
  — Mallory, 135:00

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 0:00–4:43 – Holiday/pajama edition intro, emotional stakes set, still spoiler-free for finale
• 6:40–14:43 – Listener mailbag: commercial Easter eggs, forgotten parents, overlooked high school connections, fan engagement
• 15:21–22:51 – Emotional scene-setting: endgame structure, Duffer Bros. promises, character hopes vs. lore-checklist anxiety
• 24:12–32:53 – Max wakes up, reuniting with Lucas, emotional needle drops, acting praise
• 33:12–37:06 – Vicky’s “nurse” role, hospital absurdities, parent-offscreen mysteries
• 40:23–47:39 – Erica/Murray/Mr. Clark’s science hijinks, Mr. Clark’s great Lord of the Rings joke, Mike’s first time in the Upside Down
• 51:25–54:24 – The Pain Tree, Vecna’s lair spider/hand symbolism, D&D meta-lore
• 58:14 – “Vecna’s yo-yo” (Vecna saving Holly)
• 77:32–86:37 – Timeline and upside down creation debate; Mallory’s timeline obsession shines
• 89:17–94:30 – Holly’s horror, mind-control table, clock/disciples theory
• 95:25–96:58 – Robin’s jokes about Steve’s ‘assets’, planning metaphors, levity amid dire plans
• 120:04–121:54 – Steve & Dustin emotional reconciliation and “If I die, you die”
• 122:11–133:23 – Will’s coming out scene; hosts’ mixed review, listener email from queer teens
• 138:30–143:36 – Theory corner: beanstalk plans, final death predictions, Hopper’s threat, what’s coming for Eleven & Kali
• 146:23–147:11 – Hoping for a “New Year’s 1990” closing scene; feelings about the coming end

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Final Thoughts

Both hosts are excited, anxious, and hopeful for Stranger Things’ end. They praise the emotional through-lines—the friendships, the trauma bonds, the growth—while poking fun at the show’s lore confusion and highlighting its meta-strengths. They encourage listeners to write in with finale reactions and theories ([e-mail]) and preview what's next for House of R.

The episode is a literary, nerdy, lore-friendly love letter to what Stranger Things has meant for nearly a decade. With one episode left, the wait for answers—and the final emotional punches—has never felt higher.

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For more, subscribe to House of R on Spotify or your podcatcher of choice, and send your reactions, questions, or emotional support for Ted Wheeler to [e-mail].

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello. Welcome to a very special holiday. We're in our pajamas edition of House of Art. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, bedecked in flannel, it's Mallory Rubin.

[B]

Mallory, how you doing, snookums? You mad, mad genius. There's nobody else I'd want to be recording with for multiple hours on a holiday other than you. Great to see you as always, my darling.

[A]

My dear, my darling one. We're here to talk about Stranger Things Season five, Volume two, Part two, AKA episode seven.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Of Stranger Things season five. I mean, we're basking Christmas cheer to true the new is on the horizon. We have only one more episode of Stranger Things left in the world. And so we have a lot to talk about and we're going to get into all of that after this.

[B]

This episode of House of R is presented by Target. Stranger Things has returned to Target and it's time to visit Hawkins for the final time.

[A]

Step back into the 80s with righteous exclusives like a funko pop of Steve and the Squawk van, the epic Squawk satin bomber jacket and the Stranger things you may upside down capsule shaped like a walkie talkie.

[B]

New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target.

[A]

All right, so as we mentioned before, we are covering Stranger Things Episode 7 today. Chapter 7, the Bridge. Right. Written by the Duffers, directed by Shawn Levy and also the Duffer brothers, but also team up. Episode 8, the finale is coming on New Year's Eve.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Have we a million percent nailed down our planned coverage of that episode to our episode. Episode of television? No, but stay tuned because we have some ideas.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we'll be covering it.

[A]

It's a question of when we will be covering.

[B]

We will be covering it.

[A]

Yeah. I also want to mention that, you know, over on the Prestige TV feed, by the time this episode come out, there should be an episode of the Prestige TV podcast with Mali Rubin and yours truly talking about the heated rivalry finale. So that is waiting for you at the cottage. I saw a bunch of memes over the last week of people saying, like, I'm going straight to Hawkins, Indiana and then I'm taking off for the cottage. Like that's how people want to spend their holidays. And I say that's great.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

It's wonderful.

[B]

Ideal.

[A]

Anything you want to tease at the very beginning of the of the year that you're excited about thing episodes we plan to do the beginning of the year or since we didn't discuss it Previously. Would you rather not talk about it?

[B]

No. I mean, January is going to be a delight. Yeah. Let's tease away. We're gonna do our annual House of Our Hypedraft sometime in January. That's always a blast. What a fun time that is. Of course, we as promised, we'll be covering Buffy Season three, which are almost.

[A]

You're almost done with.

[B]

Or you finish one episode.

[A]

One left.

[B]

So one. It's not ready for it to end. What a wonderful season of tv. Very exciting that has been. I can't wait to dive right back into my rewatch my second time through to prep for those pods. So that's coming in just a few weeks, so that's exciting. And then a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is coming. So talk to Thrones is back. The House of Our deep dives into all things Westeros. Jester on the bend. I mean, January is going to be an absolute bounty of podcasting goodness for us. I can't wait.

[A]

I could not be more excited. How can folks make sure that they don't miss any of that?

[B]

Mally Rubin, thanks for asking. Here's what I would recommend. Follow the Pod. You're like, when exactly will your finale podcast drop? Let me tell you the best way to find out. Follow the pod. And then when it's there, it'll be there and you'll know it. It'll be there in your feeds waiting for you. Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R in the Spotify app. Amazing. You can also, of course, follow the Ringerverse YouTube channel while you're at it. Follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. The Ringerverse is on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere.

[A]

So.

[B]

So that's all wonderful. And of course, keep the emails coming. We want to hear from you on the Stranger Things finale. Tell us how you're feeling after the finale. What questions do you still have? How did it hit you and sit with you emotionally? How are you coping with our time in Hawkins, concluding at last? Send us all of your Stranger things emails to hobbitsanddragonsmail.com and of course, send us your emails about anything else that you might want to hear us talk about next year. Buffy Season three, Dunkin Egg. All of it.

[A]

Any of it. Brilliant. Brilliant. All right, spoiler warning. Season 5, Episode 7 Up through that, we have not seen the finale. We have no idea what was the finale. We are with all of you, in the dark Alone and scared and wondering what's to come for our faves as they head into the Upside Down. But we don't know. But up through episode seven, anything that has ever had to do with Stranger Things is on the table. Except for I don't really have any stage show stuff that I really feel like is additive today. Is there anything that you want to talk to, Melanie?

[B]

I think we talked about it all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Last pod in the, in this, the sectioned off first shadow section. So if you, if you want to catch up on that or haven't yet, you can find that in the prior pot on episodes five and six. I don't think. Yeah, we have anything to we add beyond what we covered there though obviously it is still top of mind.

[A]

And as we mentioned in our last pod, which covers episodes five and six of, of this season, we will have a rather robust theory corner section. Right. Because again, we've not seen the finale. We're with all of you wondering about how, how things are going to go for our faves. So that is the plan at the end of the pod. If you're not into theories, don't worry, they might come up.

[B]

I'm not promising that I want to be in real time as we go. Some contextually relevant. I can't make a vow that I know I won't be able to uphold. But we will also hit them at the end. Maybe someone will come in real time in a way that feels appropriate. You know what, we're in pajamas today. You know, it's a holiday pajama podcast. Anything could happen.

[A]

We are doing our very best. Okay, should we go now to our opening snapshot?

[B]

Let's do it. So good, so good, so good. New year new gear. Thousands of fresh active styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save on top brands like Nike, Puma and free people starting at just $35. How did I not know Rack has Adidas? There's always something new. Plus, join the Nordy Club to shop new arrivals first, unlock exclusive discounts and more. Great brands, great prices. That's why you wreck.

[A]

I want to start with a couple. I mean, we did get a number of emails from listeners who were, you know, up on the 25th, ready and willing and waiting to email us. So thank you so much for spending your holidays emailing hobbitsanddragosmail.com. we really appreciate you. First, I want to flag an email we got from our listener Sarah, who after Karen Wheeler pulled her move with the oxygen tank in the dryer in previous episode, she Pointed out that the actress who plays Karen Wheeler, Cara Buono, did a laundry commercial that's right. For Tide, right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

As Karen Wheeler, before the season started the podcast Lord and savior Ted Wheeler, of course, use a golf club in his Target ad.

[B]

What, if anything, Mallory, should we read.

[A]

Into Jonathan and Nancy's credit card commercial? Have we touched on that already in regards to, like, the wedding ring, their misaligned agendas, or is there something yet on the horizon? Or is that. And, I mean, I'm just. I'm unwilling to write it off after the laundry situation and the golf club situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What Easter eggs await us in Jonathan and Nancy's credit card commercial?

[B]

This is just a fantastic email. Great work from Sarah. Great work for the BHAD babies, as always. I will freely admit that I had completely forgotten about the Buono Tide commercial until watching football on Netflix on Christmas Day, where every single Stranger Things commercial was packed together into an ad break, which was a great way to revisit it. Really, you know, really made me crave a Gatorade in a glass bottle. It's working. It's working, folks. And so, yeah, the laundry. The laundry connection was like, oh, my God, look at this. Here we go. I think that the thing that feels top of mind in the Discover Card commercial that Nancy and Jonathan have done has to be the flamethrower, because there's this really, like, dramatic build to the flamethrower. We have seen as they're collecting their. Their arms and then their artillery prepping for battle. You know, what is everybody armed with? What are they holding? Obviously, as we've chronicled at length across our many podcasts and were recently reminded of when we had to cook those particles right back out of our Franken demo. Heat Fire. Really crucial when battling the hive mind. And so I have to assume that the flamethrower is going to play a very pivotal role at the end.

[A]

Great call. I think that's the one. Are there any other commercials that were missing that. That starred actors in them? Like, because Clues waiting for us.

[B]

We had the Gatorade. We had Target, Tide, Discover.

[A]

No, free from us. But these are all brands.

[B]

Maybe there's something else. It's entirely possible.

[A]

Speaking of no free ads. No free ads from us here on this podcast. But we did have several folks notice that your incredible husband Adam came through with the Hanukkah gift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And got you the stranger's helmet from the Acolyte. So you can buy that for. I don't know if it's still available, if it's sold out, but Adam got right on top of it. Adam got it and Mallory has it and a lot of people noticed it. So great job, Adam.

[B]

Great job, Adam. As always. As I already told you via text, because I had mentioned on a recent pod, maybe our best fights of the century so far episode, I was like, man, I sure did talk about this helmet a lot. And Adam never got it for me. What a rare miss. And when he gifted it to me mere nights after that, he was like, how dare you believe you doubted. I can't believe you lost faith right at the end.

[A]

Frankly, I agree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What has Adam ever done to make you lose faith in his gift?

[B]

He got me some great Stranger Things sneakers as well. On the, on the no free ads front, I got the. I got the upside down Nike dunks. I got the Steve Harrington Nike Air Max ones. Great stuff, great stuff. I was thinking of wearing some of them today because I haven't yet worn. I don't believe in wearing shoes inside, as you know, but I haven't yet worn them outside. And so I thought this could be the one time we don't wear them. But you can't. You're not.

[A]

You don't put feet on the podcast.

[B]

We're not. We're not putting our feet on main on the pod.

[A]

Absolutely not. All right. Our listener Christina asked, and we've asked this before, but I think it's worth underlining, especially like in this episode when we're talking about Henry a good amount in a. In a group planning setting, Christina asks what is wrong with these adults not mentioning their relationship from high school with Henry and November 6th. So November 6th aside, if that is canon, why haven't they mentioned or remembered anything relevant? It's bugging me more than it should. Mallory, where are you on this? On the. On the Hopper and Joyce went to high school with Henry and nobody's talking about it.

[B]

Perplexing in a way I can barely believe, I just don't understand it. I think that there's a lot of joy and nearing the end of the story threads in our tapestry are lining value of having the adults and the kids teaming up together. It allows for many moments where eleven and Hopper can have a conversation very naturally in the flow of the events of a given episode. Joyce and Will can do the same. Probably most crucially of all, Murray, Mr. Clark and Erica can have very valuable exchanges.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Everybody's together. We're no longer like in our like fractured siloed plots. Our character set has converged. We talked last pod for a while. And I think we're both still feeling this about the, the trade offs of that and the things that you're missing, you know, the more kind of like organic. We're not just a military unit charging into battle. We're going about our normal day and life.

[A]

Scooping an ice cream. We're skipping.

[B]

Yeah, scooping ice cream, hanging out at the mall, et cetera, going to class. And so in theory, if you're going to lose that aspect, that core aspect of prior seasons in order to put everybody into the fight together, it should be specifically because you want information like this to be able to be shared. In addition, of course, to the emotional catharsis and payoff of these long running plot lines and relationships. So I'm just baffled that this hasn't come up. And it is, it's confusing. Particularly so given all of what we've already discussed at length across the prior pods about, like how the canon is being incorporated or not.

[A]

I mean, leaving stage canon aside, if we want to, for this purposes, we got a, in show mention of the fact that Joyce and Henry were at high school together right when Max went back through the memory. So this is like, even if the stage show didn't exist, the show has made it clear that Joyce and Henry Creel, even though it, it absolutely blows the timeline we previously understood out of the water. Yes, as of season five, they were in high school together and nobody's talking about it. And it's very odd.

[B]

Okay, maybe it'll come up still. Maybe Max, you know, we're driving into battle at the end of the episode. Again, spoilers at this point fully. We're driving, we're driving into the Upside Down. We've loaded up the truck. Everybody's in there, Everybody's getting ready. We're dodging bullets. Not everybody. Not everybody, but many people. Is it too late to be trading information at this point or is there still an opportunity for more information to come? And I guess that's a question in general. How much time do we have left?

[A]

Wouldn't it be so funny if Joyce or Hopper decided to bring it up like mere seconds before? Oh, that's interesting. You know, I went to high school with Henry.

[B]

Henry, Henry.

[A]

We're bringing this up now. Okay, last but not least, in this mailbag section, I should say we have a couple more emails, sort of like throughout the outline, but this is the last dedicated to the mailbag section. Several listeners wrote in to say, how dare you invoke Rise of Skywalker in the sort of like the telescope Wayfinder sort of connection that we made of aligning the capture to the Sith Wayfinder. The Rise of Skywalker. When of course, Goonies did this before with the coin, obviously. Of course.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yes. We were just saying Rise of Skywalker has ruined it. Goonies goodies and even originated, I'm sure, like a much older movie originated. Goonies utilized it. Goodies is of course text for Stranger Things. We're just saying. And I believe the phrase Mallory used was Rise of Skywalker. Ptsd. And that's all. That's all. I just think it's ruined forever now. Thanks, J.J. abrams. All right, Anything else you want to say about that, Mallory? Okay, a reminder, it is still November 6th. This episode all takes place on the same day. That's wild. Especially given like, the massive amount of planning Operation Beanstalk seems like it's going to require. But we can talk about that a little bit later. More importantly, Mallory, I mean, we already kind of talked about this last week, but is there anything you want to add to our. How are we feeling about season five so far? Anything that episode seven changes in terms of your what you were talking about last time?

[B]

No, I think everything that I said last time still, you know, feels like it holds, obviously. In many ways, episode seven is a kind of classic. Calm before the storm, resetting battle prep game planning on the eve of the climactic circumstances to come.

[A]

I I so on par with the Night of the Seven Kingdoms. One of our favorite Game of Thrones.

[B]

Episode had been here singing if we had to the butthole. Yeah, if instead of butthole surfers we had gotten Jenny's song. You know, who knows, who knows how we would be feeling today? I think this is often the case, of course, when we get to the end of not only a season of mythology rich and full tv, but certainly a series like how much time do we have left to do everything that we have to do? And I thought it was interesting to see in the duffers had an interview with Deadline and they talked about a lot. Actually. I thought of you in many moments reading through the interview. But one of them was Titanic confirmed as no surprise as an influence for floating on the table amid the rapidly falling soon to be hardening goop. But also almost famous in terms of like the plane ride and you think you're going to die. So what do you confess? So you got a little, little almost Famous nod there in the Deadline interview.

[A]

Interesting. A Lester Bangs drop in this episode.

[B]

Indeed, indeed.

[A]

Support it.

[B]

I love that always, of course. But so here's what in this Deadline article the duffers had to say about what's left to do in the finale. Quote, the goal is to tie up the remaining loose ends and answer any questions that remain, Ross teases. There are a few specifically big ones. Henry and his backstory and then 11 and what this all means for her and Kali. Now, that quote in this article that is written off of I'm sure quite a long interview is obviously, I think, not a complete list of everything that is left to do in the finale, of course. But I think it's an interesting encapsulation that there are some really big things left to do and also for everybody watching at home, surely. And the level and depth of attachment that we have to all of these characters. So many small things. You know, one of them is obviously, is anyone going to check on Ted Wheeler ever high on my list. I don't know how many other people feel that way. It's interesting kind of to think back on the flow of the season and how many of these big character beats and moments and conversations we've gotten between really central sets, duos or larger sets. You know, Steve and Dustin have reconciled now, for example, Jonathan and Nancy have broken through and said the things that they needed to say.

[A]

Well.

[B]

That makes me a little nervous, actually, that the finale might be more oriented around like we have to just get all of the lore stuff locked in. I would love to get answers onto the mythology front, as you know, of course, but I just really hope, I think my big hope for the finale is that there's enough time left to give us all of the insights that we're craving and that we desire without losing the key space for those character moments that are so central to what has drawn us to stranger things across a decade of our lives.

[A]

Speaking of J.J. abrams, this is, this is actually J.J. abrams adjacent. But whenever a showrunner says we're gonna answer every single question and tied up every single loose end, to me that sounds like post loss finale PTSD for any showrunner because they do not want to be in the same position that loss found itself in, where people fairly or unfairly were accusing that show of not answering any questions. And then that was just became its reputation like, well, they didn't answer this and they didn't answer that. For me personally, for my taste, I care so much less. I mean there are certain things that I want answers for. I, I, you know, since they've been teasing Henry's backstory, I do want, you know, to get all of this information stuff like that. It's not like I don't want any of that, but I. I abhor the thought of inside the writer's room. A massive checklist of. We need to check off all of these questions. Yeah. And. And that swallowing air time went to your point. What we care much more about and what I think something like the Lost finale absolutely nails is em. Emotional resonance and uplift and devastation and all. And. And the heartbreak of saying goodbye. Yeah. Leaving your characters that you love so much. Will they be okay in the future? You know, like all these other things. So it can definitely do both. I just get a little nervous whenever. And. And they're certainly not the first to do it, but whenever I hear a showrunner say that to me, it just makes sounds like they're scared of being accused of something, you know, by. By the people who watch TV a little differently than I watch tv.

[B]

I guess I would say that's why I shared the quote. That's my worry as well. And I will say this to pull me back out of the worry. Now, I think the end of a series is different from the end of individual seasons, and it heightens that impulse that you're identifying. But this has been one of the fun things, I think I always felt this in real time watching Stranger Things, but this has been one of the really fun things in the rewatch. And talking about each season together, they tend to nail the ends of these seasons. They tend to nail the finales not only on the plot front, but on the balance front and centering the characters. And like, this was one of the things that I think we both really loved getting to highlight and talk about together is pulling yourself into, like, four to five moments that there shouldn't and maybe in other shows wouldn't be room and space and time for. And just like watch the Never Ending Story. Dustin and Susie. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Dustin and Susie break into song and sing the Never Ending Story. So that's, my dear hope is that there's still room for that signature Stranger Things brew here at the end.

[A]

And I hope that's the case. But I will say, like, having, you know, part of the reason why we decided to slightly punish ourselves and do a podcast on the day after Christmas is we wanted to see, like, how people were reacting to these episodes because we recorded our first one, you know, before they dropped. And so, you know, I. I spent the last. I didn't do any work on Christmas. My apologies to the world. But I did this morning spend a lot of time on the various social sort of trying to troll through and get a sense of, like, how people felt about these episodes. And the number one like, like, meme joke reaction that I saw was centered on people yelling at Max to run. And so that idea of which. Which I. Yeah.

[B]

Which we talked about last pod. Yeah.

[A]

But Max running or not running, which happens a few times. The lack of hustle for Max. Fine. That pause to talk to Holly about what it. What heroism inherent in her. All of that sort of stuff. Which is a. Which a conversation we liked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we talked about sort of like it happened inside of a moment where, you know, Dustin and Susie singing while we're waiting for Plank's constant. There was something about the way they wrote that where, like, be it Joyce banging your head against the wall or whatever the case may be. Where they're like, we realize. Yes. That we don't have time for this. And there's something about the way it happened with. With that Max, Holly conversation of like, btws, you can't come with me and we're gonna sit here and talk about it for a little while.

[B]

Brutal.

[A]

Yeah. That just like, didn't work with that urgency of something else. So, like, yes, they can do it. They very recently, in my view, didn't land the plane on that. But hope springs eternal. And all I want is for the finale to be great. So I'm hoping that.

[B]

I really hope it is.

[A]

Yeah. All right. Episode 7 Deep Dive shall we do it? This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. With Rocket Money, you can track all.

[B]

Your subscriptions and canceling in the app just takes a few taps, meaning you.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

All right. Speaking of, Ms. Mayfield wakes up. I'm gonna get to the Lucas and Max stuff, which I think is very emotionally good, as you teased last week. But first I need to say this.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

No one decides to tell Max's mom that she's awake. And we got a lot of emails about what's going on with Max's moms from listeners, right? Yeah. And a lot of people suggested, like, maybe her mom didn't survive the earthquake, the rifts, or something like that. I was like, okay, if that's the case, that's something Max should know, right? Someone should tell Max that her mom died while she was in a coma. Maybe.

[B]

Maybe Ted Wheeler can tell her when they decide to check on Ted. God damn it.

[A]

So nobody. Max's mom's not involved. Nobody tells her that her daughter's awake. As far as we see, nobody talks. Max has no questions about her mom. They've just completely forgotten about a lot of these parents. Right, like, what's going on with Dustin's mom right now? Right, like, what. How are you going to do that? Yeah, like, what's going on?

[B]

How are the Sinclairs?

[A]

Right. How are the Sinclairs? So, like, I mean, if no one gives a. About Ted, I guess there's, like, no chance that anyone's gonna give a. About Dustin's mom. But I care. But Arlister. Rachel wrote this, like, really funny piece about sort of, like, what. What's going on day to day in Hawkins. In Military Occupied Hawkins. Like, Max's mom, who was already sort of, like, at the end of her rope, like, having, you know, they were sort of in financially dire straits in season four. Did the rift swallow up where they were living? It was right near a gate.

[B]

So it was right near a gate.

[A]

Right. What is she doing for work? What is anyone. What is everyone doing for work in Military Occupied Hawkins? And basically, Rachel was like, what's the tax policy in Post Occupied Hawkins? Right? Like, what's going on? And I have a question with that, and we'll get to in a second as it pertains to Vicky, but, like, yeah, yeah, these are questions again, you know, in their, like, checklist of. These are questions people have. I don't know if they had what's going on with Max's mom on their list, but I just think if you're gonna put a character in a coma for 20 months and we've met a parent over a couple seasons. Then, like, that should be part of the story you're telling. I don't know any. Is this pinging for you or how do you feel about it?

[B]

Yeah, because I think it's one of the things that across the the season, the town of Hawkins, but also, like the community of our character set and the world and universe of the show feel richer like we already have just because of our core, our. Our party, and then the expanded character set. We have plenty of reason to want to defend Hawkins, to want Hawkins to survive. We have been shown the Shire. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's done. But it's been meaningful to understand, first of all, it's just been comedy gold to have so many different reasons to say, do any of the parents know where their kids are at any point? But it's been meaningful to understand what each individual home life is like. I mean, we've even spent time with, like, Barb's parents. You know, we had a KFC dinner with Barb. We know they kept Barb's photo next to the toilet. And I only have one or two pods left to say that, so I've got to keep mentioning it while I can. God damn it. But, yeah, like, I think part of it is it added to the. The really just full sense of the world. And so that feels like it's a. In a moment where the story is, in theory, never felt bigger. It actually makes you feel smaller to not check in on those characters, but it does. Another thing, more importantly, I think even than that, which is make characters who people love for a lot of different reasons. But I think a shared feeling is these, These characters, these kids who we've watched grow from middle school into high school, and they felt isolated and alone, and they have their party and their D and D games, and they grow and they change and they grow apart and they make their way back together. Their hearts are so big, and we've watched them struggle and learn and grow. The fact that they don't, like, care about their families and if they're okay is honestly just like, disqualifying on the humanity front. So that is a, I think, a miscalculation in terms of how we have been trained to think. Think about how these people now, I, I'm. I acknowledge, as I say that literally every season, they're like, don't worry about where I am. I'm not checking in on you. But we're, like, repeatedly reminded by Lucas that his theory, if my theory is Right. The words. This is it. It's go time.

[A]

Erica and Lucas don't want to call.

[B]

To say, hi, I love you, just in case. That feels like a. It feels like a missing beat.

[A]

You know, literally the only person who's thinking this line is Derek, who's like, should we go home to be with our parents? Maybe Perhaps Delightful Derek.

[B]

Once again, if I try to talk me out of delightful Derek being the MVP of the season. You won't. You won't.

[A]

All right, let's talk about this genuinely very beautiful and emotional reunion between Max and Lucas before I get to some guts I want to pick. We. We. The emotional shorthand, that is when it's cold, I'd like to die by Moby, which they've used since season one.

[B]

Yeah. Will's rescue in season one. Right. Max. Max. In season four, Max apparel nearly dying.

[A]

So it's just like. It's just a shortcut to pain.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Thanks so much. And then we get the, like. I knew you were there. I always knew you were still there. I saw you waiting for me, playing my song. You bored of it yet? Are you? Turns out the whole time I didn't even need it. I just needed you. Just you. Now, listen, last week, did I say I really don't like how the music was the anchor. It was so important this whole time. And then. Just kidding. It's not important, Holly. You can get home without it. Did that bother me last. Last time? Yes. Do the actors absolutely deliver on this, like, constant esque. Penny, you answered. I just need you. Just you. I promise, I promise. I swear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and I've talked about this before, like, I think Sadie, I genuinely think of the young performers. I think Gaten and Sadie and Caleb, all three Broadway kids, are just like, yeah, they're amazing. Heads and shoulders above everyone else. I just think they're so good and we're so lucky that they put Sadie and Caleb together when they did. And like, you know, their stuff in season four was just extraordinary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, so to finally get the two of them getting to talk to each other with love and respect to Holly Wheeler just, like, meant a lot to me. So this. This was like, really hit me inside of a scenario I found baffling and upsetting. As you know, I was really irritated about everything that happened in that laundry room, but.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But their emotional reunion was very important to me.

[B]

Yeah. And this is sort of what we talked about at the end of last pod, that there was an emotional truth that not only was acceptable, but actually Quite powerful inside of the sort of messy storyboard mechanics and sequencing of what we got there. And this is, I think, further evidence of that. I also thought that the scene between Lucas and Max was wonderful and extremely touching and moving. I loved also on the needle drop front, the segue, the transition, the morphing from running up that hill into the Moby. That was just a great little touch to kind of move us across time. I thought that the Are you okay? Just the way that Lucas choked out are you okay? You hurt anywhere was so wonderful. And like asking if, specifically asking if Max could feel his hand because you know, of course Max is saying like he can't feel much. Okay, can you see? So it takes us back to the terror of the Attic in season four and our just sense of complete dismay and despair watching everything at the end of season four. But then it also ports us into that season five little beam of hope and light when Max like realized that she could feel his hand on hers.

[A]

Stood there and didn't move and just watched Lucas hold her hand. Exactly that.

[B]

Exactly that. So, yeah, it's just really paying off with these two. And this is of course the stuff again that like we're alluding to in our opening snapshot discussion of kind of like forecasting what might the finale bring? These are the moments that we want space for.

[A]

Sadly, I need it again. I am, I am optimistic about the finale, but sadly, you know, Lucas is going into the Upside down and Max is staying back at the radio station. So they're going to be, you know, unless there's like an epilogue with them, they're going to be, I think separated for the bulk of the finale. Maybe we'll get some over the radio again. You do a lot of acting on a telephone. Please watch the Constant the last episode. But like, you know, there's, there's this.

[B]

We might see them at the movie theater before the end. We simply must.

[A]

If they. If they survive. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Unlike Victor Creel, Max is not blind. Any thoughts on this? Does this feel like 11, like tied into the sort of like loose mumbo jumbo of eleven brought her back to life and so was also like. And you get to keep your vision while you're at it or anything?

[B]

No, I don't think so because Victor blinds himself later right at the penitentiary. So he's like doing it to punish himself with the razor blade. So I think, I think that that feels distinct from what Max suffered through and that the 20 month coma or non coma, that was really actually a trance. The trauma of her body would have.

[A]

Healed bleeding from her eyes, but they're fine now. Okay. All right.

[B]

Yeah, I think they just healed.

[A]

On the medical front, I just need to say this really quickly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Vicky is a candy stripe. And I don't know that everyone, like, knows what that is, but, like, that. She is not a nurse. She is a student volunteer at the hospital. Twenty months ago, she was in high school again. What is occupied Hawkins, Indiana, like, on the sort of, like, accelerated fast track medical front? I don't know, is this, like, wartime? And she's like a triage candy striper and she knows a bunch of stuff, but she comes in with all of this, like, medical advice and knowledge and essentially becomes Max's nurse for the rest of the season, it seems like. Right. Because Max is back at the radio station. Vicki's with her. Right. So, like, they turned this teenager into a hospital volunteer, and now she's in charge of a. Of a girl who was in a 20 month, albeit magical coma. And it just seems to me when she starts doling out advice, I'm like, you're not a nurse. And I was watching in with Diana. Diana was like, I thought she was a nurse. I was like, no, she's a candy.

[B]

Striper, which is different.

[A]

And, like, you've not been to medical school. Usually if you're a candy striper, you're, like, changing bedpans, like that's what you're doing. And so again, military, occupied Hawkins. I don't know what the vibe is, but that really, like, that bumped for me in a way that I. Maybe it's because I. My mom's a nurse. I come from a family of medical professions. I'm like, you can't just, like, fast forward through this sort of thing. So I don't know.

[B]

I. Obviously it's crucial from a plot perspective that we, you know, in the prior episodes came to understand that Max had just been in the trance, not, in fact, in a coma. That was perplexing and defying medical understanding. So when this happened with Vicky, I was focusing more on just like, okay, I don't know why Vicky feels confident saying this to Max at all. Let's do an exam, something. But also then, to your point, she wouldn't be the one qualified to give the exam. I'm more just like, okay, Max's injuries have healed. She was in a trance. She wasn't actually in a coma. The part where I really was thinking about this was the subsequent scene with.

[A]

Karen where.

[B]

Listen, Blono. Delivering, as always, our girl Karen Wheeler getting the opportunity to shine time again.

[A]

The permas looked better, but she's killing it.

[B]

If you think I'm gonna stay in bed when my daughter needs me, you're out of your goddamn mind. Okay, great. Karen's getting her a moment after hero moment.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Vicky basically came in with Karen and did the possible side effects. Big pharma advertising read section of a commercial in real time in Stranger Things you could get an infection, hemorrhage, God forbid, stop breathing. I'm waiting for her to be like possible limb loss, anal leakage, like, you know, what else might Mickey tell Karen Wheeler awaits. And again, will anybody think of Ted? But like, okay, on the one hand, I guess anybody could probably tell Karen Wheeler that this is a bad idea because literal days ago she was mauled by a demogorgon. And as we chronicled at the beginning of the season was two days ago.

[A]

Could not speak, had to play Pictionary in order to get her point across.

[B]

Had to vary dramatically. Right Henry? And she mustered the strength to do so. And again, good for her. But her neck was sliced open by a demogorgon. Everyone knows she's not ready to leave. So even then I was like, okay, I believe that Vicky would tell her that she's not ready to leave because anybody would tell her that she's not ready to leave. Your point is a well made one though.

[A]

It is Dr. Vicky. I await your. Your impressive medical future given that you already feel very qualified to take care of all this other stuff. Okay.

[B]

When she graduates med school, we're going to Enzo to celebrate.

[A]

I mean at this time it's really happening. To celebrate. Okay, so Karen is sent back to. Not on the show anymore.

[B]

No one gives a shit. I asked you a serious question.

[A]

No one gives a shit about Ted.

[B]

In your head, Cannon. Is Karen going to go check on. On Ted right now? She's staying at the hospital.

[A]

No.

[B]

No one is going to check on Ted or see if he's okay. The hospital was attacked by demo dogs and is now under.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Military occupation.

[A]

No one gives a single shit. Maybe Hollywood when she gets back. Maybe Holly will check. Very tough guys. As I told you, Nell Fisher, who plays Holly like has in interviews being like, everyone forgets about Ted. What about dad? Yeah, come on now you get us. We're going to get back to Holly in a second. We're sort of lump some of her stuff together because we get sort of like intermittent check ins on like what's going on, Holly? We're going to get all that together. But let's go into the Upstate Upside Down. Jonathan and Nancy have survived, unlike Leonardo DiCaprio have survived their Titanic moment.

[B]

Damn. Spoiler. Tough one there.

[A]

Spoiler for Titanic, a movie literally everyone saw in 1997. And Dustin and Steve break Jonathan and Nancy out. I did love the moment when Dusty, like, embraces Nancy too tightly and he's like, was that weird? Blah, blah. It was like, to me, a nice call back to the fact that, like, Dustin had a massive crush on Nancy season one. We haven't heard anything about Sue's. Nancy's back on the market. We haven't heard anything about Susie for the entire season. I'm just saying, if you want to bring back it. I mean, we were just talking about how we like the idea of Nancy finding herself outside of who she's dating. But Nancy and Dusty and Dustin shared of like, beautiful dance together at the snowball.

[B]

You think of the snowball is great.

[A]

Maybe, Maybe his say.

[B]

I like to think that Dustin and Susie are going strong. I think that Nancy should take some time for herself and then look for some age appropriate dating partners. But, you know, I like that you.

[A]

Manage like an age gap, Mallory. You don't mind an age gap.

[B]

What I like is. We'll talk about this a little bit. We get to Buffy season three, which tested even me this front. But I like. Oh, boy. You know. Are you, like, receiving your card yet? Kind of an age gap. But, you know, I. I love the bold takes that you bring. You know, of course, famously during the rewatch, Karen should have Billy. One of your finest tastes. I mean, one of your finest.

[A]

No one, no one disagrees. I think even Ted would be like, yeah, she probably should have.

[B]

Including Karen. Oh, man.

[A]

All right, so I'm just gonna drop this. We're getting obviously more lore dump from dustin later. Right? Dr. Brenner's notebook from 83. This thing is a good gold mine. All his research into the gate, how he created it, what it really is. I'm still deciphering it, but yeah, this shit will fry your brain.

[B]

Yeah, I'll put a pin in all of my questions because I have many until we get to the rundown.

[A]

So many.

[B]

Yeah, well, we will. We will hit that all when we get to Dustin.

[A]

Tease that you were delighted by this trio, but any comments you want to make on Team erica Murray and Mr. Clark. Murray, as ever, very committed to the nickname bit.

[B]

Yeah, snookum's a sticking Mr. Clark.

[A]

Yeah, I really, I like on the one hand, you and I have been having these conversations about like, do they have room for all these characters? Like, let's. Let's trim it down to our original. But Mr. Clark has been here from the beginning. And watching Mr. Clark enjoy himself scientifically and this like little balloon experiment that they do and then like later getting to experience the upside down and stuff like that, like this actually like really works for me.

[B]

Yeah. And previously, having fucked the librarian just the night Prior, I mean, Mr. Clark is enjoying himself in all stars sorts of ways. Great for him.

[A]

Clark responsible for the moment in this episode that is the number one source of the Bhad Bhab emails, which is the Lord of the Fellowship of the Ring reference. When he speaks friend, the Elvish word for friend, when he opens friend and.

[B]

Enter simply a perfect television moment. And we will not accept arguments to the contrary that was there for us.

[A]

I mean, nothing maybe has ever been better in Stranger Things to me than that because they just breeze past it and it's like if you know, you know, and then don't worry about it, you know, which is how many of.

[B]

The Lord of the Rings references across the seasons.

[A]

I've loved how we've tracked.

[B]

That was of course fantastic. I like. I agree. I really like that Mr. Clark is here at the end. I got quite a kick out of when we get to the plates. The fact that they have enlisted him, pulled him into this, pulled him out of a potential, you know, morning delight session with sugar Lump and her sugar lump and have not told him why. Which is just like, I can't believe.

[A]

You came back to the Sugar Lump.

[B]

You knew I was going.

[A]

You're incredible. November 7th awaits. Mr. Clark is going to be fine. He's not going into the Upside Down. He will be able. He and the librarian will be able to enjoy themselves for many. November's to come. That's what I think.

[B]

I hope so. To come indeed. I love this Voyager stretch with the Voyager Alpha, Voyager Beta and Voyager Gamma. I think that first of all, Erica with Marie and Mr. Clark is just genuine comedy gold and I'm really enjoying it. So that's been fun injecting. Things are tense, things are dire. Injecting a little levity. We need it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I loved this visual of the balloons as they're attempting to tag dusted.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And it really was pinging up for me. Pixar classic up. And I would just like to say I'm throwing this out there. Is there time between now and the finale? I don't know if the magic beanstalk radio tower plan doesn't work. Let's just use the balloons. I'm just. I'm throwing it out there.

[A]

No bad ideas in a brainstorm.

[B]

Here's what else I loved about this. The voyager made me think NASA, right? Using voyagers, the call signs. This idea of exploring and expeditions and what knowledge awaits beyond. I think that's the perfect thing that Mr. Clark would suggest for their call signs. But just more broadly, it takes me all the way back to season one. I mean, Mr. Clark has been the source of so many scientific insights from. For the group and thus for us as. As viewers across the years. Right. The flea and the acrobat. How the compass and a pull. What will be pulling it. All of that originally, like, they learned from Mr. Clark. This idea of the Curiosity voyage and the Curiosity door, which was so at the fore, back at the beginning of the show. Like, I love invoking that in the call signs right here and reminding us that just especially, you know, we talked about this last pod, and there were many moments in this episode and in their plotting and planning and just, like, theorizing and sleuthing about what's going on where. That magic and science idea, the melding of it, the question, you know, as. As when we talked about this at length when we just covered Alien Earth, you know, what is. What is the difference, really? Some would say that that's a question that Arthur C. Clark asked, and some wouldn't.

[A]

Some might.

[B]

It's a little house of our callback for anybody who didn't listen to the Alien Earth shows. So I just.

[A]

Just.

[B]

I love that he's here, and it feels right, and it feels like a nice way to connect us across seasons. I'm very happy to. I will say.

[A]

As I mentioned last week, I'm getting a little burned on, like, all the. All the, like. Let me explain how something works moments that we've gotten this season. Dustin does a pretty solid one in this episode. Steve also, like, you know, joins in on the fun. So, like. But I don't think anyone's done it better than Mr. Clark. I think Mr. Clark is like, the. The best version of that throughout the seasons. So there we go. No problem. Robin used the phrase pancaked, both in talking to Mrs. Wheeler and then sort of again here a few times. That made me very worried about Holly's fall. I didn't think they were actually gonna, like, splat Holly after all this time we spent with her, but I was just like, it's in too close proximity.

[B]

I think I thought it was just one more way to remind Us that the show is not engaging with Ted Wheeler, who just wants someone to pass him in a bacon even though the plate is empty, and has had to share his pancakes with these kids season after season.

[A]

I would encourage you, for the rest of this pod, to find a way to connect every single word to Ted Wheeler. I think you can do it. I think you can do it. I believe in you. So Mr. Clark remains confused yet game. You know, as. As we're figuring all of this out, the moment where Hop's like, you're overthinking it, buddy. We actually have a superhero here with us who could get. Take that camera down, all that sort of stuff like that. 11 eventually peels open the metal plate covering the rift, and the search party enters the Upside Down. Vicki speaks for all of us when she asks how breathable the air is. Woman of the people, always on our minds. Mr. Clark looking closely at a. At a viney tentacle seemingly having, like, a confused yet scientifically euphoric blast sort of in this. Correct. If I'm wrong, Mally Rubin, this is Mike Wheeler's first time in the Upside Down. Right. And we don't take a beat to deal with that, which seems absolutely insane to me. I would leave every single Murray snookums on the table if it meant we had a minute or two. Yeah. For Mike to process being in the. Mike Wheeler, one of our main characters. Yeah. Processing being in the Upside down for the first time.

[B]

This is pretty wild, I guess, like. Yeah, I guess going through the. Going into the tunnel area and you're breathing some. You're off in some particles, but it's not the full. The full thrust of it. Yeah. That is wild, huh?

[A]

Just. Just a note I have maybe. You know, it reminded me I was thinking about in Avengers end game when it's like, raise your hand if you've been to space. Sort of like moment, you know, like, is there a way to deal with this that feels economical, you know, like, because we can't all be Eddie or like, you know, there's a number of people who've gotten, like, a very, you know, concentrated amount of time to grapple with what it means to be in the Upside Down. What is this place? And maybe they don't feel like they have time for that. It's just like, Mike, you know, not to mention Lucas or like, whatever, but, like, you know, Mike is just Mike Wheeler, you know?

[B]

I love the end game call. What's the. What is the comp to seeing the galactic reflection in Steve Rogers's eye? Is it Mike huffing a particle, coughing.

[A]

On a toxic and fetal. Our beloved characters of sci fi fantasy. Dandruff. Yeah. Okay. All right, let's go to Holly. Speaking of Wheelers in the Upside down, not in the Upside down, how devastated slash surprised were you by the reveal that Holly, the kids weren't in the Upside down at all?

[B]

This is a tough.

[A]

I was like, holy, the hell are we now? Sort of thing.

[B]

So this is good. And we've been, you know, across the season building, you know, from what Will is glimps glimpsed through the demo cam and the painting and little glimpses that we've had of, like, plugged in children and we got to see in the last couple episodes. Vecna plugged in. And the horror of the. The pulsing sack. The pulsing sack above him.

[A]

Do you want to connect pulsing sack to Ted Wheeler, or would you rather leave that alone?

[B]

This is why. It's just. It's a collaboration. It's a partnership. You know, we find a way together in this stretch. Holly waking in Vector. We. We got a little bit of a. It's not a return to form in general in season five on the subtitle front, but we did get some nice, like, mysterious. Mysterious slithering and things of that nature, which I appreciated. It was good to see some of the subtitles there. Holly. I think we both want to talk more about what we saw with the claw imagery and the shape and of course, just where we are, which we'll hit in a second. Just quickly on the Holly, because she frees herself.

[A]

She pushes, and it's like a process.

[B]

Oh, yeah. She's got to break through the membrane, pull the plug out, kick, and claw her way free. And then she coughs up, like, purges out the particles, which we've now seen many times. Right. Of course, we saw this famously at the end of season two, when these are, like, expelled out of Will but.

[A]

Came out of the Demogorgon.

[B]

The middle of this season is reminding us heavily with the Franken demo, and now this.

[A]

So do you feel like if 11 particle corner. If 11 is purged of any particle that's inside of her, will it purify? Purify her blood is not a phrase I really like, but, you know, will it make her blood unspecial and, you know, free her from persecution?

[B]

Yeah, I think this is one of the theory corner things. I mean, there's obviously. And we've been speculating about this for. For years with the hive mind and how obviously Will tapping into the hive mind has Made the hive mind very central already. But in terms of, like, depowering the hive mind, the, like, kill the one kill, the many aspect of it, of just the hive mind falling if the top of the head of the snake falls, but also the idea that the hive mind could be depowered by our powered set pulling the particles out of them. There's that which is interesting to think about. But then, yeah, you've got this on my mind. Like, with, like, the potential end game.

[A]

Can we Pearl not an 11 death.

[B]

But 11 without her superpowers and embracing the idea of heroism in another form.

[A]

Is that what you think Nancy Wheeler is going to do with the flamethrower?

[B]

Just burn 11 to a crisp and then I will walk out and be like, I might be some particles to shed. So I'm good.

[A]

I might feel crispy, but my blood is no longer cursed. Tell me. Think about. All right, Just some quick initial impressions of what the show is calling the Abyss and what Diana and I in our house called the bowser level of this whole platform.

[B]

And they're calling the clothing the Pain Tree. I saw this on the official Netflix website, which I, unless I missed it, was not uttered in the show, but the Netflix site called it the Pain Tree, capitalized as though it were an official name.

[A]

Okay. I had written here Vecna's palace, but I rebranded to paint Tree. I have some notes. Vecna, if you're trying to promote a cuddly or softer side of yourself, come to the paintry, come to the light.

[B]

I'm telling you, this is maybe not.

[A]

The phrase you want, but. Okay. Does this paint tree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look to you more like a skeletal hand, an upside down dead spider slash mind flayer. Right. Like a bug on its back with, like, its little legs in the air or. And we actually got several emails about this from the listeners. The Skeksis Castle is actually called, I think, like the Crystal Palace. Skeksis Castle from the Dark Crystal Night. I don't think know that you've seen the Dark Crystal. I think you haven't. So I linked the image here. Look at it.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. That definitely is a reference set as well for the show. So that seems entirely plausible. I thought hand, claw and spider immediately, which I think is not only, like, visually very apparent. Like, it's. It's. I'm sure everybody thought those two things looking at it, but with Vecna, with Henry, the invoking the hand and invoking the spider imagery is perfect because on the one hand, now, anybody who watched Ringer Quest knows I am no DND expert, nor will I claim to be. I have played it exactly one time. It was with my colleagues and we filmed it and I had a blast. And I can't wait to do it again. It was great. I'm like, how have I not been playing this my entire life? But I haven't been playing it in my entire life. We know, though, that Vecna severed hand is like a part of the D and D VNA canon. And this idea of the. The hand of Vecna is like a powerful artifact. So that felt notable to me that it looks like this thing that in D and D lore is very associated with, like, the power that you could tap into if you acquire that artifact, but as I understand it, also the evil that you would be welcoming into your life. And then, of course, the spider imagery, because as we've talked about ad nauseam at this point, this was so core to Henry explained explaining his worldview, what he where and how he found a sense of peace and belonging and some idea generation, inspiration, and how he thinks about the kind of world that he's trying to build. I found a nest of black widows living inside a vent, he said in season four, most people fear spiders. They detest them. And yet I found them endlessly fascinating. More than that, I found a great comfort in them, a kinship. Like me, they are solitary creatures and deeply misunderstood. They are gods of our world, the most important of all predators. They immobile and feed on the weak, bringing balance and order to an unstable ecosystem. So no accident that he's telling these kids, like, Will, why do you think I take the kids? Because they're weak? And then he's taking them and collecting them in a vessel that looks like his God.

[A]

Fun. Love that idea. I think it's been really interesting to think about, for me at least to think about, like, how much do they know about season five, when they made season four? And like, yeah, we've talked about some of those things, but I thought it was really interesting, you know, like, you cited this Deadline interview. There's a great People magazine, a bunch of interviews that they published. Hollywood Reporter has a great Duffer interview, et cetera, et cetera. And they were talking about how when they were talking to Sadie Sink about whether or not she'd be in this season, they were like, don't worry, we're not killing you. You're coming back in the season. But they said they didn't know they were going to use Holly Wheeler at that point. And Holly, such a huge Part of this season that I was like, wow. So they knew what they wanted to do with Max in season five, but they did not even know. They were like, max will be stuck in Vecna's mind. And that's interesting to them. But they didn't know that, like, how they were going to use Holly Wheeler, which is just massive. I thought that was fascinating. So when you. When we talk about things like a spider monologue or whatever, I'm like, I'm curious just my own mind, like, how much had they, like, really figured out about Henry's relationship with the mind Flayer and, like, all of that and complicated, as we've talked about in the. In the stage show stuff which comes between the seasons, we're not gonna, like, bring up here, but, like, did they contradict their. Certainly in many places, they've already contradicted their own canon. So, like, it's just. It's. I. I'm excited to know everything.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

In the finale. And then try to, like, paste it all together and make a picture that makes sense. All right, so Holly. I'm just, like, really, like, Max's pep talk stuck because she saw that she was not in the Upside down, and that did not stop her. Not that she really knows what the Upside down is anyway, but, like, she's just like, okay, run home. You know, Max is like, it'll look like Hawkins, so just find your home. And then she goes, what the is this does not look like home? And she takes off and she goes and she figures out a rift, and she uses her young child hands to pry it up as Vecna is actively stalking across, you know, the. You know, we see him sort of lower behind her, like a spider, and then, you know, like, stalking across the thing after her. And then she just, like, chucks herself through the gate and intimate air. I mean, again, I did not think that Holly was going to die here, but when you see the X marks the spot of the Hawkins lab sort of like rising up through the mist, you're just like, what the hell is gonna happen here? And then, yeah, you know, this is sort of happens back and forth in time or whatever. But, like, eventually we see Nancy's sort of very devastated face as Holly is suspended in midair and then yoinked back up to. To the abyss and plugged back into the pain tree and. And then, like, back to. To Creole Mansion. Let's be honest. Vecna saved her life. Like, this is just another elite take. Does he have some flaws? I have some notes For Vecna, I have a few.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Holly Wheeler would have died if he had not yoinked her back up out of the sky. There's no way that ends any other way, right?

[B]

You don't think that the exotic.

[A]

This is amazing. Fall into the middle of the exotic. Oh, and we all know how well things happen to things that come near the exotic matter.

[B]

Maybe the exotic matter field slows her and she lands into some still hardening goo. And then soft enough.

[A]

Soft enough to cushion her fall.

[B]

To cushion or fall. And then just like her fellows, none of it hardens on her person in a way that would lead to any biologically pressing concerns.

[A]

Great.

[B]

That could have happened.

[A]

Great theory. Alternatively, Vecna has some voices.

[B]

Vecna. You're in on Vecna as a hero. So let me. Let me. Let me recap a few things. So last pod, Joe Colon. Steve is right. Eddie died for nothing. This pod, Joe Vecna saved Holly's life. I love it. You're on fire right now. Yes, of course. This is great. The Vecna Yo Yo. A couple of things.

[A]

Why is that not merch that the Netflix store is selling?

[B]

Yes. We're still waiting for the TVA official notebook that meets our needs. But if we don't have a Vecna, if we don't have a back made yo yo by the finale, like, it's just a miss. What are we doing? It's a miss. On the design front when Holly pushed her way through. It's not obviously quite. Nothing's gonna ever measure up to like the. The through the trailer and the trailer gate. That was just all time stuff. But it was effective. Very quickly, as we're gonna get to Dustin. Explaining everything in the wormhole and the bridge between these two realities, the abyss and our world. When Holly pokes her head through, we have the color palette and the visual cues that were in the upside down, but it clearly like the. The terrain is clearly the abyss on that side. Not Hawkins. Which, like, of course it should be. It is. But it helps to just cement for us in one other way. Yeah. How this space is functioning and what it is. So I liked that. I thought that was useful. I'm on the like, how is the information that we're sharing front? How is it taking root and what knowledge trees might spout? What beanstalks of a different sort might spout.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Am I like completely missing something? Nobody, after all of this information is shared is like, wait, Vecna. Because Nancy says it was Vecna. He pulled her Back. And I'm like. She was. You could see her. She was right there. If he can pull her back, can't we use our powers on the other? We're like, how are we gonna get up there? How about we use our superpowers?

[A]

Well, can anyone fly? Push?

[B]

We can.

[A]

What are we pushing? What are we pushing?

[B]

A person.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

Let's do a mega force jump up to the abyss.

[A]

We're like bomb set spiking someone. And who are.

[B]

Who are we picking? I'm just saying. Is it a perfectly.

[A]

And we being 11?

[B]

11'S gotta send someone up there, maybe herself. I'm just saying, Joe, she's gonna bump.

[A]

Set, spike herself up.

[B]

It wasn't even tossed out as an idea to be discarded, which I just find odd because it's like Vecna could pull somebody basically across the entire bridge. Logic would indicate that we can then push somebody.

[A]

I'm just saying. I think at least it should have been an idea floated before helicopter, maybe. You know what I mean?

[B]

Or between helicopter and we've got a beanstalk already. We'll talk. We'll get to the beanstalk. But not to throw shade at my. My dude Steve, who finally, for once got to, like, hear people say, you're what a genius. Steve's plan is. Let's basically wait until the last second before her dimensions collide and we're dead forever.

[A]

Well, here's. Here's where I will put some theory corner out for you.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

Yeah, we were wondering why we were getting this whole will the builder sort of idea earlier.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So not to mention the sort of, like, can 11 bump set spike herself up to the sky? Great question. You asked some great questions. Can will the builder not vine bend? You know, Allah, Korra, and Avatar the last bender and, like, make a literal beanstalk so we don't have to do this on Vecna's clock. We could do this on our clock. I don't know. Just a thought. We have invite us to the brainstorm. We have some ideas. But, like, I was wondering if. If after all of this, is there any way, after all of this, the squawk tower doesn't work for some reason, even though it's Steve's idea. But, like, does it. Does it get crumpled or something like that and it doesn't work and we need something else to get us up there. And is it 11 flying as. As we've been sort of hinting this whole time, or is it will building a literal beanstalk out of the vines that you know, Mr. Clark was staring meaningfully at. At a certain point inside of this episode.

[B]

I really like that theory. I think that's a great. That's a great one. It doesn't seem like the radio tower thing that seems there's. There are a lot of holes in that place.

[A]

On the other hand, is this why we watch Jonathan? Jonathan.

[B]

Yeah. Race up it.

[A]

Race. Go all the way up a bit. So maybe, I mean, we had some.

[B]

Questions about the CGI at that point. So that makes me a little nervous.

[A]

Well, actually, I think it actually made me feel better about that cgi because I was so confused about that. But now that I know that they had to build that in a space where they could change, flip the background to the upside down, I was like, oh, okay. You know what I mean? They have like, there's that big brain.

[B]

There's that big brain at work. You see across time and space. The real wormhole, the wormhole of the mind. I had another builder related adjacent theory. Like I was thinking, I like the beanstalk one a lot because that. That seems right. Like, given that we know now he could canonically he can control and move the vines.

[A]

I mean, like, why else tell us that if it's not going to matter?

[B]

Here's my kind of semi related question on the Wyatt teleside. If it's not going to matter front. One of the things that Will says is if, if I could do all of that. This is after he's like told Joyce about the building. Yes, if I could do all of that, what could he do with 12 more like me? Okay, so there's the like beanstalk theory leader in the clubhouse. There's like, basically, if Will built the tunnels, can he unbuild them in some way? But I don't know what that does other than collapse the town, which is not sure if that helps them. We're just helping. We're just doing Vecna's job for. For him at that point. So can he do that to the abyss be. And can he specifically, can they all do it to the abyss? Can will and these 12 kids, like team up and compromise that reality back to the instead of ours? And then obviously we go through the like, oh, no, he's not like the merging clarification that Vecna, who I have to say does not strike me as a geologist. Like, I don't know the structural integrity of either reality is going to survive that kind of incursion. So we've got notes on everybody's plans, including Vecna's but if incursion just gave me multiverse ptsd. Yeah. I mean, well, you know, yeah, I'll throw some music notes your way to bring you back into the light, but, like, could we compromise the abyss? Collapse that world before it can crash into our own and merge? Take down Vecta and the Mind Flayer? Imagine the power up with 12. The logic holds. Like, if our. I don't know. I wonder. I guess I'm not. I don't know if that makes sense either, given that it is canonically established in this episode that Vecna is creating rifts up in the abyss too. So, like, there's already some structural integrity stuff happening up there by his design.

[A]

Can I.

[B]

But I wonder.

[A]

And maybe I'm. You know, you can call me Steve Harrington if you want to. Maybe I'm, like, completely missing something. But, like, how does Will know that? I mean, we know that Holly somehow broke through whatever the crust was, but when Will is, like, he hasn't just been doing that. He's been making rifts in the abyss. And I'm just like, how do you know that Holly got through one gate? How do you know that? Vectors. Did I miss something about that?

[B]

I guess through the hive mind. Like, I guess through the connection to the hive mind, Will. The various cams. Will. Because he knows things, because he penetrated his mind. He saw into the pain tree, into the lair.

[A]

Yeah. And did he see his to do list? And it's like, Tuesday, make more riffs maybe.

[B]

I was like, I just saw a hospital sign with a room number. So they're both just seeing a lot of printed words. But, yeah, I guess there's that, right? I mean, murder, kidnapping, murder.

[A]

Make another rift.

[B]

Cupcakes with. Cupcakes with jelly, fruit wedges.

[A]

Keep everyone calm on the bean. On the beanstalk front. I just want to say we got a couple emails from listeners because they know how much I love the musical into the woods, which deals with beanstalks and. And a giant. Giants in the sky. This idea of, like, there are giants in the sky. So, like, thinking of Vecna as, like, you know, the. The. This giant force. Not physically giant, but giant force that can just sort of like, yoink a girl up out of midair, save her life and, you know, something to think about. I don't really want to talk about the military subplot. Is there anything that you want to say about K and Sullivan and Akers? This is a real miss for me in general this season, but is there anything you want to say?

[B]

I just this is a bummer that, like, this hasn't landed a little bit more. And, you know, we talked about this across season four and five now. But, you know, if you're going to introduce like a third, we have a pretty key central tension. Right. So if we're going to introduce a third arm, we have to to some degree care about that. I think the way that we have achieved that on the 11 front with what's happening with Kali and Elle is giving us that. Right. The fact that they. But like, you almost are achieving that in absentia. It's like K as an idea. The. And I mean, that's literalized in this episode where, you know, eleven's like, well, we could blow the lab. Well, we could kill Gay. And every time eight is like, whoa.

[A]

I feel like there was a way, I mean, like, I understand. To have the military and the scientist continues a theme from season from the very beginning. Yeah. But I feel like there was a way to put those stakes on Colleen Elle of just sort of like, if our blood exists out here, there's still a way to open a. You know what I mean? Like, you know, whatever you needed to create the storyline of, we have to stay behind or we have to die in order for this to be truly over. There's a way to do that without Dr. K and all of that in the mix, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's very interesting for us from the 11 perspective. But I don't. I just don't give a about K or no Chris Sullivan Acres at all. I guess, like, with Acres, it felt in this stretch maybe like they're setting up the idea of like an active mutiny, you know, that Kay's army could turn in full because, I mean, obviously everybody is converging in the upside down now. You know, Acres and his soldiers, they still see that the plate is up. He's like, eleven's getting sloppy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Follow him in. They're not in there at that moment, but then they will be returning in. So it's all. All ends up in the same place, I guess. But this idea that, you know, he's like, how am I supposed to know what to request if I don't know what the hell I'm fighting? Introduces the very real possibility that at some point everybody's like this, like, if you're not going to tell me what I'm fighting, I'm not going to keep putting my life on the line for something that we don't understand.

[A]

They're certainly seeding, like, Acres mutiny. It would be interesting if he took the whole. They call the wolf pack. Is that right? Okay, this one goes out to Mr. Clark. They call it a bridge.

[B]

Oh, bridge.

[A]

All right, so everyone's back at the radio station.

[B]

Very good. Yeah.

[A]

The show, once again, is trying to pretend that Will and Max have a relationship, when, as far as I can remember, he hated all the girls in season three because he was jealous that they were occupying the time of his friends and then moved to California immediately after. And while that gave him time to bond with 11. So I understand the will and 11 stuff. They were living in California together. He never saw Max again until she was in a coma. So what I, like, I don't mind characters meeting each other and, like, forming bonds, but they keep acting like Will and Max have been pals this whole time when, like, it's like Legolas and Frodo. Like, they never had a conversation. Like, I don't. I don't. This is the. I don't know why this is bugging me, but it's bugging me a bit.

[B]

I think this is another example of where something that could be a bug can actually be turned into a feature. If the show makes space for literally one liner, like maybe two. Because I think there's a way to.

[A]

Say.

[B]

We have the trauma. Bond trauma of this, which is true. And we understand. Understand that as viewers, without them explicitly telling us. But I think there's a way to have the characters engage with that idea, to explain why they are united through, like, a shared experience, even though it's a little bit distinct for each of them. Right. A shared experience that unites them. So Eleven and Max have this deep relationship.

[A]

They went to the mall together.

[B]

They went to the mall together once.

[A]

They spin the bottle.

[B]

They shared comics once.

[A]

So there's one.

[B]

One of the deeper relationships of the show is her soul. They care about each other. Right. We know that, as you noted, Will and Jane have their entire bonding sequence and are like a literal family. Right. And I think there's some aspect of us, like, accepting and believing that Max's import to 11, like, that will soak some of that up, absorb some of that. But I think just somewhere in this season, saying, like, this is one of the few people in the world who genuinely, truly, fully understands what I'm talking about and what I've been through. And we can kind of unite as a team in that respect. When the key wheel smacks in and they talk, that's, like, a spot for it.

[A]

No. And that's a. You know, it's a good scene. But like, the. Like when he runs up to her and she's like, oh, I leave you alone for like two seconds and you're a sorcerer. And I'm like, do you mean several years ago, the last time you saw each other when you weren't friends then? Like, I don't. Yeah. Makes me feel like they're hoping we forget that these two people were never friends and we can just be like, oh, they've all grown up together. Do you know what I mean? So anyway, Lucas giving Max a tour, though, is very, very sweet.

[B]

That was great. Not quite the back game, but it's pretty sweet. Was very funny. Another shout out for our guy, Jimmy Fast Hands. Will he come into play at the end?

[A]

No, but hope springs eternal. Mallory, who are you most excited to see? Jimmy Fast Hands or Ted Wheeler up and about?

[B]

Maybe Jimmy will make his way back after his famous escape. Will make his way back into the quarantine zone and he will be the one who checks on Ted.

[A]

I like Ted Wheeler. Were they golfing buddies, do you think?

[B]

Maybe. Maybe this is like a bonus featurette after the finale, you know, Jimmy's adventures out outside of not only the Big Mac, but the entire Hawkins qz. And he's a man of the people. He's been the voice of the people, a DJ for years. And it takes it upon himself to tell the true story. Enough of these, like, newscasters who come in at the end of a season, and they're like, these people just thought they lived in a simple town, but no, they're on top of a hellmouth. We need Jimmy Fast Hands to come in and collect and amass all the facts to tell the true story. And is there a better source for him, I ask you, than Ted Wheeler?

[A]

Mallory knows that Netflix is out here clamoring for Stranger Things spin off and she is just. Just pitched them here a Jimmy Fast Hands spin off show run by Mallory Rubin, who says no. Okay, speaking of, like, it just takes a few lines to sort of like, make you feel okay with certain decisions or whatever. I'm still not. I still don't feel great about Max right at the very end being like, by the way, you can't come with me, Holly. But at least we get this beat where she is, like, expressing remorse and angst around it to Lucas. Right? She's all alone in there, Lucas. Alone with that monster. And I was so sure that she could make it out. Out. And I was so stupid. You had to try. I should have stayed there and I should have kept her safe and Then Lucas is like, no, then we would all be screwed. We wouldn't know this, that or the other thing. Like, absolutely, you made the right decision. But like, her wrestling with that sits a bit better for me than like Dustin being like, lol. I was wrong. I was exotic matter. When I told you to, you know, I told you to destroy it. I shouldn't have. It's just like, it's moments like that where I was just like, yes, Max should grapple with the fact that she left Holly alone there. And I'm glad that this moment is here, you know?

[B]

Agreed, Agreed.

[A]

It's Dustin's turn for a big info dump with visual aids.

[B]

Sure is.

[A]

And Gaten pretty good at it, honestly. I know. I just. And more than that, more than Gaten being really good at the translucent Breaking Bad esque through the whiteboard, sort of like shot of all of that. It's really sweet to watch Mr. Clark watch Dustin, like his quote unquote protege, as Erica called it. Like, it's just like really great.

[B]

Really great.

[A]

Like really sweet.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I got really emotional with it. So I agree. I love that.

[B]

Almost as moving and powerful as Mr. Clark's little side glance at Erica when she said, what a pussy about Vecna fleeing back to the abyss. It's just great to have Mr. Clark.

[A]

Here for all of these payoffs when he and Erica say wormhole together, you know, like, all that was great. All of that stuff is. Is really great. And like, I think one of our listeners had suggested that this moment would come and it would be really fun to have Erica explain it to people because she just learned about in class and that would have been fun. Dustin is a. Is also a great alternative.

[B]

We also got this felt vintage to me in a great nostalgic Stranger Things way. Like another world that I've coined the Abyss. It takes me back to season one and Veil of Shadows. And Dustin is our guide so often talking about Vecna.

[A]

Talking about the mind flare.

[B]

Yeah, like whether it ends up being right or wrong wrong. Like, he's so often the voice of these explanations. And also just the, like, you know, the fact that Mr. Clark knows the DND term. Right. So he's like a realm of pure chaos and evil. Because Robin's like, any particular reason why you're calling that? And you know, you've got saying Jesus Christ and rolling his eyes. Like it just felt like all of the. The using the DND is like this. This crucial touchstone of framing device for us to understand what's happening in Hawkins. But the way that the different characters relate to like the believers, the believers.

[A]

And the non believers sort of thing.

[B]

Yeah, the gate game as the text, as the. The sacred text. Like, I just loved that.

[A]

And in this moment, the people who don't. In this room, the people who don't know D D are the ones on the outside of the conversation versus how our pals usually feel on the outside themselves. Okay. Everyone eventually joins in the brainstorming session. No, I bet it isn't a brainstorm. With extra details from Holly11, etc helping to form this picture of Vecna's full plan. Plan. I've already talked about my confusion around Will's Rift based intel. But like, how did this, like, you know, oh, because of this. You know, how did all of this coming together as. As Dustin was explaining this? You know, we get this nice visual aid which I thought, like, you know, it's. It's interesting that inside of this bridge with has. Which has the abyss at the top. The way that they're drawing it, the abyss at the top, and then the upside down. And then Hawkins. That Hawkins is sort of like the upside down thing inside of this structure that. It sort of like hurts my head to think of it that way. But we have to just completely flip our idea of the map in order. You know, they could have drawn it the other way. But since the abyss is. Since gravity works a certain way inside of this wormhole. Is that how worms work? I don't know. But that. That. That puts Hawkins all the way on the bottom of this stacked structure. And I thought that was interesting.

[B]

That's. I. That's a great shout because it almost introduces a little bit of a, like, Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor turning the painting around in his office element to it. It's like that's what Vecna would want us to.

[A]

To think, you know, we are the light. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's a. That's a great shout. So I agree. I thought having Dustin do this was the right choice. I thought he very effectively explained it. We. We kind of like teased last episode that, you know, there are some questions. I don't know actually at this point, if we're going to get additional answers to this. I believe we will.

[A]

Duffers told Deadline that all questions would be answered in the final questions will be answered. This is your. This is your timeline question, right?

[B]

Yeah. And this is. I want to, like, people really should.

[A]

Know better than to mess with the timeline around you.

[B]

No, no, no, no. It's not. It's not that I'm trying. Well, I'm trying to like. I'm trying to wrap my mind around how many of these answers we already have, how many remain to. And how much room there is for some sort of. What you were saying a few minutes ago. This maybe just doesn't totally like clock. Because they figured out some of this as they were going.

[A]

Okay, so what. What. What are you trying to square right now? What's not squaring for you?

[B]

It's not yet that it's not totally squaring. I don't know. Okay, so we. We. Dustin says he was lost for years. I believe. I believe the Abyss is the true home of the Demogorgon Savines, the Mind Slayer. All the nasty shit we found in the Upside Down. It's where all those years ago you banished Henry. Now we have have seen the visuals of where 11 sent Henry in 79 and where the Pain Tree is and his lair is now. Like this is. They match, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so we know that we also have. And this is actually interesting with like the. The just the wormhole and the bridge and how it works. We talked about this last pod, how unusual it was to see. We just got the visual clarity when we panned out with the. The BMW cam of like.

[A]

No, actually images of the Upside Down.

[B]

We're not speculating anymore. Like this is definitive. We're showing it to you. This is what is going on here. We have two realities and the Upside down is a bridge, a wormhole in between. Okay, so like we know those things. That's like set now, which is helpful. You mentioned this earlier when Dustin was talking about the journals that he said Brenner created the gate. Okay, here is what they say in this stretch, he was lost for years. And he would have stayed lost, meaning Henry, if it wasn't for Brenner. Then Elle says he had me find Henry. And then Dustin says, and when you made remote contact with the abyss, the bridge formed. Now, if we are understanding the idea of the bridge correctly, saying the bridge and the. The Upside down are interchange. That's interchangeable, Right? So they're saying here that the Upside down formed when 11 made remote contact with the Demogorgon. What we saw in season one opening the Mother Gate. Okay, so if the idea is that Brenner led 11 to create the upside down, the bridge formed, but 11 had sent Henry through the gate previously in 79, then I'm trying to wrap my mind around that sequencing is there. Are we traveling between the dimensions before the bridge?

[A]

I think so. I think it's like she sent him. She didn't create the bridge in that moment.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even though that is what's called the Mother Gate. Right.

[B]

There's travel between the dimensions before the upside down wormhole bridge exists.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so we're on the. This is how I think this seems. Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And what they're explaining to us.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Did Brenner generate the exotic matter? The exotic matter was generated by what eleven did. Like who. How did the exotic matter come into play? I'm not a theoretical physicist, so I don't understand that. Frankly, I don't know if we need to understand it. It's there. It's stabilizing the upside down. That's probably the key thing, right? Is he just studying what's already there? But he's got these notebooks full of information. And if the upside down is frozen in time on that November date in 83, then how are those four full already? How are those notebooks full of that information?

[A]

It means.

[B]

Well, well, because Will and Vecna is what freezes the upside down, not 11 opening it.

[A]

So there's.

[B]

There's a little bit of time. But is it a.

[A]

Is there an.

[B]

Is that. Is that what we are. So you can basically. Is this correct? You can travel between. People were traveling between the dimensions pre upside down, then 11 creates the upside down, and then it creates. Freezes in time because of Will and Vecta on November 6, 8, 3.

[A]

Is that why it froze? She opened the mother gate on November 6, 1983, and then Will was also taken on November 6, but she opened it on November 6.

[B]

Right. So did she. Did 11 create it and freeze it all in one instance? It's frozen in the moment of its creation.

[A]

Why not? Why. Why would it be Will and not the person in the first place?

[B]

Then I don't understand how Brenner's notebooks are free full of that stuff.

[A]

Is there any. And I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there any chance that those notes were made between 79 and 83?

[B]

But how would he have notes on the exotic matter stabilizing the bridge? If the bridge.

[A]

Great. Question is, is it possible this stage show stuff, Honestly. But I don't know how to talk about that. So.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Because.

[A]

Because. Because here. Here's a way I can talk about it.

[B]

Well, yeah, because they're saying, right, there's 11 sending Henry through in 79, but then there's 11 kind of in the sequence we saw in season one, touching the demogorgon.

[A]

And that. Right. That's the Mother Gate opening the Mother Gate.

[B]

That's the forging of the bridge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Based on this. This scene in this explanation. The Upside down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the 83 timeline.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

So then how is Brenner understudying and understanding the exotic matter?

[A]

Is it theoretical?

[B]

Maybe he is. It is. So that's. I guess that's. Is that what Dustin is deducing when he's saying created that Brenner's notebook is like an experiment? He was try. A thing he was trying to do?

[A]

I mean, because that's part of what he said.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He sends 11 right. Psychically out there to try to make connection with the Abyss, essentially. Right. Because the Demogorgons and. Because the Upside down doesn't exist yet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So the Demogorgons in the abyss. So he. He tortures and forces a child to make this. We have notes to make this connection.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so you could say, Even though it's 11, who technically does it because he's. She's doing it as his, like, puppet, in a sense, he opened the gate.

[B]

So was his objective just once again.

[A]

Dustin, giving a man credit for a woman's work. You know what I mean? I love it.

[B]

Okay, so that all makes sense to me. So is this where we are heading into the finale that Brenner was working, not just looking for Henry, which we've now known for some time, but specifically was actually trying to create a wormhole so that there would be a way to travel between these worlds? That's what our assumption is heading into the finale?

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Let me tell you what I like about this.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

What I don't like about it is I don't think it's great. Are we just like, am I just dumb and everyone else is like, I don't have any of these questions. This is not a problem. I'm good.

[A]

Maybe. Absolutely not. I actually think. I mean, I know you don't think that of yourself, but, like, I actually think you're thinking about this, as is often the case. And I was making a joke before, but, like, honestly, as is often the case, if there's a date involved, you're gonna make sure it aligns in your timeline. And I'm not making fun of you for that. That is just how your brain works. And a lot of people are not watching the show that way. And totally like. And so. And I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong way to do it, but I do think that, like.

[B]

We.

[A]

All benefit from the fact that your brain works that way. And, you know, it's like, it's like when you were doing. You were. You took this timeline math to Noah Hawley when talking about alien Earth. And Noah Hawley had a total spin out in the interview because he didn't have an answer for you. You know what I mean? So, like, what a time that was. Hire Mallory Rubin to come into your writer's room. See, like, say your timeline doesn't match up because so often it doesn't, you know.

[B]

Very kind. I feel like this is. This is a case where it probably does all work or they will be able to make it work. What I don't love about is I don't love actually having to, like, stop on the eve of the end, on the precipice of the end, and think this actively about whether this is all going to like, click into place and work.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What I do like about it.

[A]

Is.

[B]

That it is yet again, potentially a melding of the supernatural and the scientific, which I think is cool and appropriate at the end. And I like that that was kind of actively invoked, you know, recently in the last couple stretch of episodes. So, yeah, I don't know. This is.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

Like we talked about briefly last part. It's a big change in the. At the end, the final season to say, like, the Upside down is not what you thought it was. It's this. So that makes sense.

[A]

I will say. And I. I didn't know this because I have not spent a ton of time on the Stranger Things subreddit between seasons, but apparently between season four and this season, the Upside down is a wormhole was a very popular theory. I didn't know that. But like, apparently like a bunch of people on the subreddit were on top of this. So I think that's interesting.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

And I. I am curious how much time and space they have to make this all make sense in the. In the finale. Let's go back to the abyss. And by the abyss, I mean Creole. The Creole mansion inside of everyone's mind as they are plugged into the pain tree. I thought this is. So Holly comes back. Henry, after saving her life, gently lays her. Her down in. In the bed and then goes to. Absolutely. With the minds of the various children in this house. Yeah. Deeply manipulative Jamie Campbell Bower just dropping some of the most, like, devious little smirks and smiles as he manipulates and warps these children to his will. But he convinces them to be his little soldiers. Essentially, and try to, like, try to bring Holly back to the light. Back to the light. This is so horrifying. This is, like, culty language, obviously, like, just really, really tough stuff watching these kids. You know, Mary, Holly's best friend. Yeah. Does get a boombox to the face. It should be noticed.

[B]

Right to the noggin.

[A]

Mary. Mary, first of all, blows up Holly's crush on Maine for no reason. Genuinely none.

[B]

Is nothing sacred?

[A]

No one needed to know that she had a crush. Joshua, everyone. Apparently a couple people already knew, but you did not need to put that out there. Absolutely. Josh didn't know. So, like, why. Why would you say that, Mary?

[B]

Huge violation of the friendship code.

[A]

Deeply bad. Then when everyone's gathered in the room and Holly's like, in, like, my first moment of, like, I'm not sure this is, like, perfect acting from Nell, but, like, the desperation. You have to believe me, appealing to. To dipshit Derek and him, like, abandoning her because he's thinking about his family. I thought that was well done. I was convinced that she was just sort of like, oh, okay, okay. I was so confused. Blah, blah. And when she pulled that boombox move, I did not see it coming. I thought it was, like, great. I thought it was really interesting to see Holly do something similar to what we saw Henry do down the mineshaft, which is, like, active head bludgeoning violence that seems a little extreme for the scenario. A little step beyond. Like, then, speaking of, the kids just descend on her, like, Lord of the Flies, yellow jacket style. That little blonde mullet kid calls her a. And, like. And Mary pulls her best friend is choking her with her own necklace until it breaks and Holly's like, metaphorical powers drain. And then she falls down the stairs. And, like, the last we see of her. We'll get to that later. But with blood still trickling down her face, she sits at, like, concussed at the table. But, like, I thought this was so scary to watch these kids who we've. I mean, again, according to the timeline that you've put together, they've only had a couple days under Mr. Whatsit's thrall.

[B]

But, like, so really confused by that.

[A]

But, like, you know, Derek's in the barracks when he was sort of, like, manipulating them, like, the way in which they are so under his spell and how quickly he turns that into violence, all in the name of the Light, I thought was just, like, really well done and really creepy stuff.

[B]

So I agree. I thought this was harrowing and in a really great and effective way. Lord of the Flies was on my mind as well. I love the Yellowjackets shout too. And they're both apt because, you know, obviously the show is set in hawkins. And so Mr. Whatsit recruiting, finding his 12 kids in from Hawkins Middle, like, makes sense. That's where the story is set. But a little, if you kind of pan back, it's like if you were just finding 12 kids with weak minds, would he just recruit from one class at school? This, though, is where you feel the, the wisdom of that storytelling choice because when you get that Lord of the Flies or Yellowjackets comp, you have, have kids who know each other and have a shared history with each other, thrust into the group think in a way that just is more believable, I think, than if they were all strangers. So I ended up like, really liking that they had all come from just like the same playground and school bus group shout out the kid in the ET Phone home shirt. Love, love to see our references just right there in Stranger Things. That's great. I, I was watching Derek with such interest because he, you know, he's throughout this. These sequences, like the expression on his face. He still knows, I think, what he believes to be true. But he's been so scared. Effectively worked by. Yeah, by Vecna with these visuals, these visuals of his family murdered and mutilated, that he feels like he has to conform. And you know, anytime we think of conformity, we think back to Eddie in his great speech in season four. You know, conformity, that's what killing the kids. It's like the, the, the. The what? Those moments when it's too scary to say, I can do a different thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's when the evil really seeps in. So this was another great way, I think, of reinforcing like a core idea at the heart of the show across seasons. Obviously Henry here is invoking the black thing again. So we get, you know, more Wrinkle in time, more Camazot still here on our minds as well. I, I was struck on the theory corner front. We've talked a lot already about 12 kids. Why 12 disciples, 12 hands on a clock. When Henry says, we need her tonight or we will fail, that was really interesting to me because I think there's a difference between. I would like to have 12 kids because that feels like the best and most effective way to amplify my power. And like, 12 is better than 11, but wouldn't 11 be better than 10 and certainly better than 0? What? We need her tonight or we will fail told me was especially because it was paired with, as is the case many times in this episode, including at the very end. But here, when he says that there's a clock ticking underneath him talking. And so it's once again just like, why 12 exactly, if not 12 hands on the clock? And so I have not given up.

[A]

On that on the one hand yet us on the other hand, I had a real 12 hands on the clock fell apart for me when they were all sat around the table and he was also sat there so that it was 13. It was 13 spaces, not 12. You know what I mean?

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

If he had sat them around a circular table and like trader style and just like walked behind them as they were chanting. That's 12 hands on a clock. But they're at a long rectangular table. That's fine. You could have a long rectangular clock. It's. It's the 80s clocks are fun shaped. But 13 spots on the at the table versus 12.

[B]

Could he be the like cuckoo atop the grandfather clock? You know, the grandfather clock from Creel Mansion?

[A]

I want to give you everything you want, so. Sure.

[B]

Or let me throw one more thing your way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You mentioned that Holly is freely, freely bleeding from the head at the end of the episode. Maybe Vector is looking across and he's like, gotta be honest, don't know if I can work my mind magic. If you are concussed, can you be pulled into the mind palace if you have a concussion? If you're in active concussion protocol. Something to think about.

[A]

One other thing. I mean, you've already talked about the Dark Crystal. Someday I will figure out a reason for us to do like a Jim Henson 80s episode so I can like, have you watch Dark Crystal in Labyrinth. I'm in. In the Labyrinth, David Bowie's Goblin King puts a clock up. You know, this is the amount of time you have. It's a beautiful, like, elegant, sort of grandfathery clock face. 13 hours on the clock. So you know something I think about, I was thinking a lot about Labyrinth because Will's whole, like, I'll tell everyone my secret and then he doesn't have anything on me is like classic Sarah from Labyrinth. You have no power over me hero moment. So I'm always thinking about the labyrinth, to be honest with you.

[B]

Were you thinking about it when Steve Harrington's penis was invoked? Because one thing I do know about Labyrinth is that you have told me before that the Bowie penis very visible through his.

[A]

Here we go. Mallory, a moment for you to discuss. Steve has an idea and this is what we hear. What do you mean? We'll just fly through it. What? Idiot? Just fly through it. Those roses are, like, 40ft wide. It's too big. It's not gonna fit. Steve hears that all the time and goes in anyway, don't you? What the hell is wrong with you? Yeah. Did you love this? Was this great? Of course. Did it seem you liked it? Did it feel like something Robin would say in that moment?

[B]

No, it definitely felt like something Murray would say. He was nodding, like, appreciatively.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's like, that's my kind of joke about these young adults.

[A]

Or like, Eddie, who called Steve big boy. Like, you know what I mean? Like. But Robin the lesbian being, like, Steve's canonically huge cock, in which women ask him not to use it because too big. And he does it anyway. Classic Robin joke.

[B]

Okay, well, now I feel. Now I feel weird saying I loved it, but I did. So now it, of course, takes us back to. In this season, the whole, like, isn't a gate just like, a bopper? Soft on the inside? We can fit. We could drive in. We can fit Beamer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, the phallic symbol of, like, the guy with the shiny sports car. Of course.

[A]

Course.

[B]

It's all connected. Robin was not a part of that sequence. So that might be in our mind as viewers, but she is not alluding to that. She's undeniably talking about Steve Harrington's giant dick. Yeah, that's the only way to read this exchange.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And, you know, not the only interesting moment in the episode to think about how many people are in the room for a given thing being shared. But this is one of them, certainly.

[A]

All right, Operation Beanstalk. What is your favorite prop used to describe a plan this season? Was it Lucas with the popcorn, Robin with the vinyl, or Steve here with the slinky and the flashlight? Or am I missing any? You've got. You've got, I guess, Mike and his little figurines. Any. Any. Any other props that you particularly enjoy this season?

[B]

Oh, good question. I guess it's kind of especially right on the heels of Steve. You've got a big dong. Probably has to be Steve grabbing a flashlight and then shoving it up a Slinky. Yeah, yeah, it's probably gotta be that.

[A]

It's like the. You know, and the. He's like, no, please stop.

[B]

Very plentiful meme on TikTok and Instagram right now, in the romantasy boom era of, like, all the different videos, when there's a line in one of these books, about like, she could barely fit both hands around it. It's like steady progression for different household items until you get to something for which that would be true. You know, let's give Steve a moment.

[A]

For you and I are not on the same algorithm in this regard, but I. I get that one.

[B]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I get served that one fairly routinely. Where. Where are you on Steve's. Not Steve having the. The Beanstalk plan and like, light bulb moment, but on everybody else kind of receiving it with. Yeah, that's the one. That's the. That's the one. That's the kind of land.

[A]

I think. Because Dustin backs him up. Yeah. And Dustin is so often like the originator of a plan. So I think that's really helpful. And I don't mind that this is Steve's idea. Given, like, again, we watched Steve scramble up the tower at the beginning of the season. So, like, they gave us a reason to understand that Steve would be thinking about this. And I think it matter. I think I'm willing. There's so many nits I picked in this episode, obviously, but I'm really willing to hand wave it so that later we get Dustin, like, tell him he's a genius for coming up with the plan. And that just to me a lot emotionally. So, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Rubik's Cube. Not even a good measure of intelligence. Very important. Love that we got that.

[A]

All right. Speaking of nist to pick, tell me if I'm wrong about this. 11 gets involved. Quote, the Upside down is under his lair. I think they mean pain Tree, but that's fine. The Upside down is under his lair and it's still frozen in time, which means everything should be there for Brer's experiments, including ellipses. The bath. Mallory, isn't there famously no water in the Upside Down. Just asking.

[B]

We do swim through Watergate into just demo bat hell.

[A]

The pool. Barb in the pool. No water vines, but no water, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where all the tunnels are. Go around the bodies of water in. In. In Hawkins, though that might be more structurally than anything else.

[B]

Yeah, it's a good flag. It's a good flag. So is this our characters not identifying something that they should know? And this is just an over.

[A]

Is there water in Murray's truck along with everyone else? Are they porting in there toting in their own water for the bath? I'm sure they're bringing their own bags of salt. They love a bag of salt. So I'm sure they're bringing in their own bags of salt. Do you think they've got tanks of water with them?

[B]

Maybe. Okay, those were those tanks shattered by the free reign of bullets that didn't hit a single person peppering the side of the truck. That hit no human flesh. That's an interesting question, I guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was there water anywhere in the. In Dr. K's lab? Like, did we see.

[A]

But that's not where they're going. They're not going to the Hawkins lab.

[B]

Yeah, no, but, like, that would be evidence that you could bring it in and it wouldn't, like, immediately evaporate or something.

[A]

No, I mean, I don't think water, like, evaporates in the Upside Down. I just don't think there's, like. There's no running water in the Upside down is what I would guess. So, you know, maybe they just have a bunch of kegs of water in the truck. That's entirely possible. Okay. 8 also wants to help. Kali's like, 11 doesn't have to do this alone. And a little bit later, we hear Hopper and Joyce discuss it in a way that I once again find very troubling. When Hopper says that Callie makes. Makes that Cali makes one false move, I swear to God, I'm gonna kill her. I'm gonna kill her. I will not hesitate.

[B]

This was even for Hop, really weird and weirder, actually, that Joyce wasn't like.

[A]

What? She's a child.

[B]

Deep breath, my guy. Let's workshop it.

[A]

No.

[B]

Bad idea. In a brainstorm. Except for that one. Now, I will say I am not responding. I am not receiving Callie's pitch to Elle in a way that warms me to Cali. I think that Cali is sharing something. That is true. But I am like, you are leading a character I care about to a fiend that I don't want. Yes.

[A]

Guess what? Suicide packs. I'm against them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Brave take for me, but I just thought I would share it.

[B]

So I'm not mibing with.

[A]

With.

[B]

With with what Kali is pitching Elle on here, but I think that Hopper has taken this to such an extreme and worrying place, and then, you know, on the theory corner front. So we have a lot of different places we can potentially go with this. Like Dustin says, the bridge collapses, and with it, the abyss, the demos, the mind flare, all the gone. Later we will hear Kali and Elle just talk about this. Making the pact, as you say, and. And colleague pitching this pact. Like, when it all goes, we stay behind and we go with it. Then there's no blood to. To take, no weapons to make, no child soldiers. To put out into the world. One possibility is that Eleven decides to do that. We talked about this for a long time. Last. One possibility is that Eleven decides to do it. Maybe that leads to her death. I don't think either of us think that's. That her death is the most likely outcome. Maybe it leads to some sort of depowerment. What if 11 decides, despite the little nod that she and Kylie share in the truck on the way into the Upside down, at the very end of the episode? A little confirmation, right? Like, we're on the same page here. 11 decides, I don't want to stay behind. And Kylie tries to force her to basically shifting from suicide pact to murder. And then Hopper kills. Hopper kills her. What's our response to it then?

[A]

Yeah, I would. I would. That would sit easier with me if it wasn't premeditated. I know him saying that he's gonna do it is, like, tough.

[B]

It's. It's. It's weird.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Can I. Can I present to you a theory that I am recently enchanted with?

[B]

Is it about Ted Wheeler?

[A]

It can be. Anything can be. What is it?

[B]

Great.

[A]

Tell me. Because we saw Kali project herself somewhere earlier this season when she and hop and 11 took off and she put that projection there so that K and the army people could think that she was still there. I became enamored of this idea that, like. And this is me creating, like, an involved fan fiction. But if, like, they decide not to do the suicide pact, but there still needs to be something that has to be done, and Kali has decided that she's gonna do it. She's like, I will follow you. I'll catch up with you. And then she, like, projects herself as if she's with them as they race away from whatever it is, but she actually has to stay behind. And so 11 thinks that Kali's there, but she's not. And then the, like, the vision will start to, like, flicker because they've gotten out of range. And that's when she realizes that Kali never made it out and that she's still in wherever it is. And I don't love that because we raised this earlier. I can't remember if we said on the pod, but you and I talked about this, okay? This idea that, like, Kali is going to be the death, that everyone else is going to live and Kali's going to die. And, like, they brought her back just so there would be a character that we know that dies and everyone else lives. And you and I both were like. Like, I don't like the idea of that. That feels off. Yeah. But, like, the way in which she keeps talking about how she wants to die. Yeah. Feels like the Duffers giving themselves permission to kill her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's eager to go so we don't have to feel bad about killing her.

[B]

And that worries me. I. That's a good.

[A]

I. That's.

[B]

That projection theory is a good one. I agree with you that the projections feel destined to come into play in some capacity here at the end. They obviously have to. I like that. As a potential path to how. So what you already said it would feel a little. Just kind of, like, fucked up to bring Kali back just to kill her. There's that. That's the more generous and empathetic read on it. Now I'll shift to being a dick. I just don't care. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

Not a character I care about. And frankly, I actually sort of appreciate that they brought her back.

[A]

Not.

[B]

Not. Not. Not to march to death. I still think that's a miscalculation if that's where we're going. But when the first volume ended on the Collier reveal, I'm like, I don't know that there's enough time left to make me, like, really care about this character in this relationship.

[A]

And they're like. And they're like, don't worry. We're not gonna try.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Kind of.

[B]

I don't mind that. Actually, like the way that. That K has been used in that respect. Not necessarily as a character we're supposed to be warming to. To have an understanding of. To have empathy for. We do, I think, have a good sense at this point of what has driven Kali to this place, why Kali is thinking the way that she's thinking about these choices that I think is. Is actually been done pretty well. But if Kali.

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

I'm not, like, mourning if Eight bites it at the end. I have no attachment to Eight. Well, I think I would feel for.

[A]

I think what they would make that. Make it be about 11's grief.

[B]

Yes. And that was not about.

[A]

That was being sad that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Eight is dead.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think. You know. Okay. As you. As you mentioned, it's really hard to keep Theory Corner in Theory Corner. I'm just gonna.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna say here's. Here's Matt Duffer in the Hollywood Reporter interview saying, quote, there's not going to be a red wedding situation. We're not trying to shock or upset anyone. I hope by the time people get to the end of the finale, that it just feels like there's something inevitable about what happens to me. And before that, he said, like, it's. It's not Game of Thrones, by the way. Not a ton of main characters died in Game of Thrones anyway. But it felt like, to me, that's a showrunner signaling we're not gonna kill people, which we've been talking about all season. Like, what if? Yeah, I. I saw a lot of people online today, this morning, frustrated that Jonathan and Nancy didn't die. And I, as you know, I loved that scene, and I actually, like, love that. That's, like, maybe one of my favorite scenes ever in Stranger Things. And, like, would it have been even better and more poignant if they had died? No. I think it matters that, like, now they're have. They have a direction to go towards. So I wasn't, like, clamoring for their death. But I do think, as I've said many times, times, I think it's. There's something that rubs me the wrong way about them, like, teasing, anything could happen this season. Yeah. And then the anything that could happen is that Kali dies. You know what I mean? Like, that's just bizarre to me.

[B]

So I. Yeah, I. I agree. Like, we've across a number of fictional universes. We've talked about this a lot.

[A]

Yeah. We talked about it here on this podcast about Stranger Things that, like. Like, you and I agree.

[B]

Yeah. Stakes can come in many forms. But I'm with you that there's a active, like, a courting of a certain. I don't know if you saw fear.

[A]

If you saw on. On Fallon that the Duffer Brothers did this, like, thing with the Funko Pops, Fallon was like, give us a sense of the ending by positioning these Funko Pops on the desk. You know what I mean? And so they, like, stab stacked like, 11 and will and Vecna, like, on top of each other was, like, one thing that they did, and they were just sort of, like, moved. But they put Steve on the very edge of the desk, and then they just, like, let him fall off. You know what I mean? And that, to me, I actually think Steve's gonna be fine. And I think they were just, like, they're just messing with people at this point. And I'm just sort of like, I understand the temptation to mess with people. Like, it's a very human temptation. And people certainly have, like, made protect Steve at all costs on this podcast, like, this rallying cry. So, like, why wouldn't you mess with them? Like, but if you're not Gonna kill anyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I'm already worried enough. I think about Dustin and Steve, like, the. If I die, you die.

[A]

Like I jump, you jump. Yeah.

[B]

Shared refrain. It certainly heightens the sense that we're marching toward a really perilous situation. So it. It defies belief that everybody would make it back from that. Okay, I think the question is, like, who? What's interesting to think about is like. Like the number of different scenarios where somebody could be left behind or killed. Like, who chooses to stay behind, other than potentially El or Kali, to try to. Because they think they need to. To protect, to get. Make sure everybody else gets out.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We've obviously had a number of scenarios across the show. Who was just killed. Is there anyone who's just going to be killed in battle? Like, we just saw all of those professional soldiers be destroyed now.

[A]

Multiple characters. Wheeler.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but Nancy. But I meant by Vecna. But yes, by Nancy. Wheeler also, perhaps more damningly so. Like, yeah, you know, we have. We have powered up characters on our side to fight against Vecna, but it, it's. I don't want anyone I, like. I'm not rooting for characters to die. I don't think that's the only way. The story can have stakes. But I think to the Jonathan Nancy point, I, like you, was happy that they made it out. I think it is really interesting to see what their relationship in life is like moving forward. I think also undeniably, the scene, which I also loved, invites you to assume that they're not gonna make it out of there. So it's like, yeah, it's yet another.

[A]

But in all the scenes, I don't.

[B]

Think that undermines that scene.

[A]

No one dies in that plane. Spoilers for almost.

[B]

But we've said some things out loud. But we have said some things out loud.

[A]

All right, so back in, sort of the scene that you were talking about where Will and Max are sitting together and Max says she got a C minus in physics.

[B]

I'll trust the nerds.

[A]

Here's my timeline. Yeah, question. Max was 14 the last time she was in school.

[B]

I don't know how it works in.

[A]

Hobson, Indiana, but physics was a senior. I took a junior year. But junior year. Senior year is when you take physics.

[B]

High school, high school, same.

[A]

She was 14. Okay. Anyway, two things worth noting here. I think among. Among this sort of, like, idea of we have this trauma bond together. Max tells Will about the cave. That seems like it will be important. Obviously the cave will be important. But Will knowing about the cave no question. And then Max reminds us the viewers quote, underneath all those scars, he's still human. A psychopath with a serious God complex, but human.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Vader. Anakin. Yeah. Gol comp. Sort of incoming.

[B]

Yes. I mean, this obviously will inspire this. This exchange, in part, will. Will inspire the subsequent Will scene that we'll. We'll talk about shortly. But, yeah, I'm with you, Will. Being aware of this memory opens up a lot of interesting possibilities. The humanity call out crucial. But just Will's knowledge of this also feels crucial. There's the question of, like, can he tap into this memory right through the hive mind? Can he encourage slash, like, force Henry to confront this memory? And in doing that, can he use it as a way to at least try to. What you were prompting us to consider last pod. To at least try to remember who he was, you know, to appeal to whatever shred of. Of humanity might remain inside of him. And I. It's interesting because this is something, this cave that, like the way Max has been talking about it and explaining it to Holly and now explaining it to the group to Will, it's something that makes Henry vulnerable. Right. It's a weakness of his.

[A]

In theory.

[B]

I'm using this term deliberately, not like, because this is how the villain would use it. Right. Like it's a thing you're afraid of. So I can weaponize a vulnerability. Yes. And so there is a version of the story where our heroes try to do to him basically what he has done to them, which is take a vulnerability.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And exploit it. They could do that. Maybe they will. What I think seems much, much, much, much, much more likely inside of the show that we have been watching for five seasons and 10 years is that they attempt to use it as a bridge. Right. Another way to still beat him, to emerge victorious while reaching him, to. To show him just as they have learned and have. Have felt empowered by discovering about themselves the thing inside of you that someone else might try to make you ashamed of or that you are ashamed of or that you're. You can't look at fully or don't think you can. It doesn't have to be the source of.

[A]

Yeah, sorry.

[B]

Your fear.

[A]

Yeah. The. What I always think of in. In something like that is I hear Robin Williams and Good Will Hunting saying, it's not your fault. Right. It's not your fault. You know, and like hugging you into submission, essentially. So that feels like some version of that is to come.

[B]

I agree with you.

[A]

I'm giving you the old Rob Mahoney Appalachian Freeze frame. Rubin, any insights from the Operation Beanstalk planning board? There doesn't have to be. I was just curious if you wanted to talk.

[B]

I think the only thing you know, I still have the. From Mr. Clark's lesson in his chalkboard classroom. The, the. The time travel aspect of a wormhole, like on my mind still here at the end. Can't. Can't shake it quite. And I guess relatedly here with Dustin's drawing and the mapping and the duffers have talked about this in a number of their interviews. There is I guess a way to draw a wormhole that looks a little bit less exactly like an hourglass than this. But that's not the path they took. This just the drawing is so hourglass like and so reminiscent being an hourglass. Yeah, yeah, they did. So like, I think that that feels like yet another timeline clue. I mean obviously best of all is this episode ending on the ticking of the clock, which maybe it's just the march toward this like November 6th that's all happening. But yeah, it's, it's very hourglass like.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think.

[A]

Well, so what do you want, what do you want from time travel at this point?

[B]

I have no idea. We only have two hours left. So I'm like scared. My guess for the season would have been that like midway through we started to.

[A]

I just kind of feel like we're.

[B]

Not, I mean potentially loop back through something.

[A]

I mean, I guess Ted Wheeler will time travel and you will get everything you want. But like I worry that the version of time travel not worry. But I feel like it's just going to be this memory crawling thing which is a. It's a form of time travel. You know what I mean?

[B]

Definitely. And I think is. Is satisfying in some way. I guess the, the. The Henry's like 12 or 13 hands on the. The clock thing is still on my mind. The ticking under all of the. And I guess with the November 6, you know, again we, we talked about this when we covered the first volume of episodes. But we have like the will date now we have marching toward this end date. But we also had the November 6th date from Oklahoma, like from the play and that memory. So the fact that there's a Henry timeline aspect to this in his history that just feels still like very likely to come back into play.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But who knows? We got two hours left. Two hours and change. That's not a lot.

[A]

Mike is building a record based bomb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even though music is no longer necessary to get people home and needle drop will still have a Big role to play in the finale. Any guesses here? This is Corner Butthole Surfers track. They'll pick.

[B]

This is. This is. Is. This is. This is all you. I have. You have the mind for music. Well, what do you think? We might. Will they break back out a classic? Like, will we get some Peter Gabriel again? You know, we already. We got the Moby Return here. Or will it be something new?

[A]

I mean, I don't think it's gonna be the Clash, right? I don't think it's gonna be Tiffany. I don't think it's gonna be Kate. Give Kate a rest. And we've already used them. Yeah, the Moby.

[B]

Give Kate a rest.

[A]

Let her rest. Let her. Let her rest. No, I don't. You know, and, like, I don't think we're gonna use, like, any of Eddie's heavy metal. Yeah. I was looking at top 100 songs of 1989. I don't know, but I don't think Robin would pick anything from the top 100 songs of 1989. So. Hobbitsanddragons gmail.com, you have a theory about what song is going to be the sound of the destruction of the Upside Down?

[B]

I did like Mike saying if I built the bomb, I should get to pick the song, though. I thought it was pretty weird that Mike knew how to build a bomb. I gotta say, I thought that was weird.

[A]

Any explanation? Oh, 1987.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

R.E.M. huh? It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

[B]

That would be delightful.

[A]

Okay. It's not really a good mood setter, but, you know, we'll see a bit.

[B]

Of an anthem, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that would be fun.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. Mike knows how to build a bong. He also knows who Lester Bangs is. Confusing. Mike, you're gonna love Almost Famous. Okay, team, gears up. Nancy doesn't think Steve should have a gun. Listen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, too, am very good at Duck Hunt. Yeah. Yes.

[B]

I mean, I used to be when I was a kid. I don't know how it would be.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

When I was good at Duck Hunt. When's the last time I played who's? No, I want to say. I just want to shout out that Steve's backward hat look very good.

[B]

Sensational.

[A]

Absolutely phenomenal. Yeah. And all of this leads up to a very tender talk between Steve and Dustin as they arm up with the still blood stained. Yeah.

[B]

It was too. Probably too emotional for everyone to purchase weapons. That feels like them.

[A]

That feels like it's bad for the metal. Don't you think it would rust if it's just, like, filled with. With demo? Probably good.

[B]

Probably. But was anybody. Was anybody ready to sit down and, you know, like, the old Kristen. The old Kristen Cole of the lemon with the salt, like, cleaning the. Who was ready for that? We're all still Morning Eddie in our own way.

[A]

I don't know. Practical weapons enthusiast Nancy. I'm. I'm sure she was just like, very happily.

[B]

It's a great point. Murray would have done it probably on one of his smuggle runs.

[A]

All right, we already mentioned you die. I die. Anything else you want to say about that?

[B]

I really loved this scene. I appreciated that we got it. You know, we've talked about. Talked across every pod now about not only how painful it was to watch Dustin and Steve for really quite a long time, both in the universe of the show and for our experience watching the show in this space with each other, but also how, especially in the last couple episodes, it just felt like this is actually not how we, like, want our. These characters to behave. It doesn't really feel like how Steve Harrington should be behaving. Maybe Dustin, we can get there a little bit more because of the grief. So I think not only was I relieved and really glad to see them reconcile, I was. I thought it was very necessary, the specific way that they apologized to each other, which was like Steve saying, instead of just being there for you, I just, like, I got angry about it. I guess I got angry because things were different, because I really miss you. I miss my best friend. Like, he admitted that he had been behaving badly. I got angry.

[A]

Things were different. Is like, that. That line really hit for me.

[B]

It's like the most relatable thing in the world. World, really, you know, for me. Yeah. So I. I was very, very, very glad for the scene. I'm, of course, terrified by. You die. I die.

[A]

You die.

[B]

I die. Terrified. I. I don't want either of them to die. I would prefer they not.

[A]

Stay tuned. All right. Will's coming out. Okay. I'm of two minds about this, actually, so I'm actually gonna read a. An email from a listener because it kind of encompasses both of my feelings about this. Right.

[B]

Okay. So.

[A]

But I will say I have seen a mixed response to this scene, which is obviously a huge scene that the show has been building, like we've been talking about for years.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And when I think about people sitting down with their families at Christmas and watching this. Yeah. It has an emotional impact on me. This is what our listener Shayna wrote. Just Shayna or Shana. I'm not sure how to pronounce. Just wanted to share that it what it's been like watching these episodes of Stranger Things with queer teens. I see a lot of discord online about how Will's coming out scene was handled and had the pleasure of watching it with my three queer teens and their two best friends, one of whom is also queer. They know that it was a very different landscape to come out as gay in a small town Indiana during the 1980s because we told them and shown them enough media from the time for them to get the gist. But that scene really resonated with them. We all cried together and they said it all felt character appropriate with each reaction. With one exception, Hopper. Now this is where I'm just going to asterisk and say Hopper's not actually in the scene.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I'm going to keep reading this email. They each expressed doubt that Hopper would have been so immediately on board and felt uncomfortable with Will being, quote, forced to come out to such a large group. I'm going to ask her again and say this was Will's idea. Right? But there's a way in which it felt like this. The screenplay forced him into, I don't know, resuming. They wish it had been the teens and his mom, or even just his mom and Jonathan at first to protect him from what they worried about in a negative response from Hopper. Anyone else? They all adore him as a character slash protector, but I hadn't realized that they felt on some level that he'd balk at the idea. When pressed, they said they felt he Hopper would come around quickly and take cues from Joyce. But just the thought that that was an interesting observation from the kids of today. My 13 year old daughter is especially attached to Robin and has been thrilled to see such powerful female gay representation from someone who also appears to be on the spectrum. My daughter is too. What do you guys think? Was Hopper immediately cool, blah, blah, all this sort of stuff like that. So I think it's very interesting that Hopper isn't there because I agree with, with this email in that I think Hopper is a kind of personality that I wouldn't expect him. Hopper who's just like, I'm gonna kill this kid. I don't know, is just like he's got some emotional regulation issues and I, I just don't know how, how exactly he would respond here. I think it's like there's a plot reason that they give why Hopper isn't in that scene. Right. He's, like, busy getting into place and is talking about going to the Radio Shack.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, like.

[B]

And that's Mike's way into the room too, is to say, Hopper. Hey.

[A]

Hopper say. Yeah, exactly. So, like, there's a. There's a plot reason why he's not there, but that's a decision they made to just not have Hopper in that room. I. When I think about this scene, meaning a lot to people, that means a lot to me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

However, and I will say, when the camera cuts to Jonathan reacting to Will, I was in floods of tears. Yeah. There are ways in which Noah so clearly, and he has talked about this in interviews so clearly, put his own experience coming out into his performance of Will here. That is profoundly impactful to me on the whole. I don't think the scene works as well as I wanted it to. I think the Robin coming out scene is one of the best things that they've ever done on the show. We talked about this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You and I talked about another show that came out this week that had a coming out scene that I thought was just, like, one of the best things I've seen on television in a lot. Long time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These things can be done so. So well. I think it was a huge misfire to have all of these people in the room. I think I understand. So the Duffers have talked about the fact that when they originally concocted the scene, it was just Joyce and Will, and they tried it that way a couple times and it just wasn't working. So then they added everyone in, and I'm wondering if they're like this email suggests, was there not a middle ground where perhaps we could have Mike, certainly. Jonathan, Certainly. Dustin, certainly. Lucas, certainly. Let's add 11 and max if you want to, but, like, you know that. Keep it to that. So you don't have, like, Vicki Robin, if you want to have her there. Sure. Steve needs to be there. Vicki needs to be there. Kali needs to be there.

[B]

Murray needs to be.

[A]

Murray needs to be there. And then you and I had been joking about this, but, like, everyone has, like, kind of a reaction except for Nancy. And we were both like, like, why are you putting Nancy there if she's not gonna have any kind of, like, tender reaction or whatever. Anyway, I just feel like I don't think they nailed it. But again, I've been really curious how it lands with other people. And so I was just, like, reading a bunch of reactions and I've heard from. I saw from a Bunch of, like, queer people that they thought that they absolutely did not land it. And then some queer people are like, this was incredible. And I really, really loved it. I heard from, like. And then there's like, the bad faith response from people who just, like, don't want this storyline in their story in the first place. And that, of course, is not at all what we're talking about here. But I don't know. I wanted. I wanted more from this scene, I guess. But I feel conflicted because if it mattered to people, then that matters to me. So I don't know. What do you think? Yeah.

[B]

I'm fascinated by. By the. The quotes about. The insight about this starting originally and the. The creative sketch as just a Will Joyce moment and them feeling like that wasn't working. I'm like, I'm really surprised by that. Not that the initial idea would have been to try that, but that it wasn't working. Like, I would love to know more about in what way and why.

[A]

And this is the quote Matt Duffer says. We worked on that for a while with just Joyce, and it never felt right. Once we involved the Friends, it started to click more into place. Yeah, that's too vague for your purposes.

[B]

Yeah, I want to get that quote in there. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so curious about that because now, obviously, we get a number, I mean, across the entire series, but in this. Just in this episode, we get a number of Will Joyce moments. And Joyce's, you know, the person once again in this episode who Will is, you know, confiding in that initial, like, stretch of Joyce coming to tell Will that Max is safe. And that's when, as we already talked about, he explains to her, like, all of these things that happened in season two that he was a part of in a way he has only now come to, like, fully see and understand that question of what could vecta do with. With 12 more wills and Joyce saying, you know, nothing that happened is your fault. And then when, as we just mentioned, like, when Mike comes into the room, Will and Joyce once again have been talking because Will pulled Joyce to say, like, I have something else. Like, I didn't when we were talking earlier about what I saw in Vecna's mind and what happened, like, there's more. And Will is telling Joyce, you know, he weakens you by turning your own mind against you, by bringing out everything inside you that hurts. And then when Mike comes in, it's like, no, you should be here, too. So I'm just kind of fascinated.

[A]

Feeling.

[B]

Like More people than Joyce should be in the room. Makes sense to me. I'm with you. I think that Jonathan. A version of that scene with Jonathan, Joyce and Will, I think would have been lovely. Jonathan and Will in season four and Jonathan reaching out to. First of all, just observing him in the rearview mirror of the surfer boys truck and then at the pizza restaurant saying, like, nothing ever could make me not love you. I'm always here for you. I'm always here if you need to talk to me. You don't talk to me the way you used to, and that's probably my fault, but I'm reminding you that you can and that no matter what, I will love you and I will be here to support you. I think a version of this scene with the three of them would have been so wonderful. I agree. I think certainly a version of this moment where Mike and Lucas and Dustin and 11 and Max are there and Robin makes sense. I also thought it was odd to have such a large group of people. I think the way that the scene explains it, to take away Vecna's ability to turn any of these people against each other in any way. You know, we were given basically an explanation in the episode for why Will feels that he needs to say this to everybody. But, you know, rooting that moment in the. The deepest bonds, I think would have been a better choice. All that said, yeah, I was really moved by Noah's performance in this scene, which I thought was like one of his better scenes on the season and was, like, really moving and very strong. I like you in particular, Jonathan's face and Robin's face, because Robin has this smile and is nodding and is encouraging him. And eventually we'll say, you didn't need the truth. Truth serum. Right. But Jonathan just the. And it's so early.

[A]

Like, he knows before. Right away, you know, he knows what's happening here.

[B]

Right away. Will is like, you know, lucky charms and Steve Martin, and Jonathan is just breaking because, like, he knows what's happening.

[A]

And that was like, Charlie Heaton is like, my MVP of this season.

[B]

Like, I think he's been great.

[A]

I think it's just such a good Jonathan season.

[B]

He's been great. And I thought, obviously Joyce, you know, that was. She's the first one to embrace. This will never happen. Yeah, this will never happen. That was all really wonderful.

[A]

Lucas being the first of the kids to stand up and hug him.

[B]

Yeah. Like the. Or me hug. Or me hug. Like, those moments were really lovely. And I also just loved in Noah's performance But for Will as a character and like the history inside of the party and inside of the family, these characters who, the people who have actually been together since the beginning or for, you know, more time and have shared really meaningful experiences. And like we talked about a lot, you know, the Rob and Will relationship is newer, comparatively speaking, so it's not like nobody could be in that room who hasn't been there since season one. That's not, that's obviously not, not what either of us are saying, but I just thought it was all the way that, that Will was running through, like all of the things that they share, all of the things that bind them to each other, like their childhood, their friendship, the party, their family, but just the, the, the idea of these touchstones of a shared experience and how deeply scary it would be to have a cause for somebody to make you question for a minute whether that would be enough. Like, that's when the show is just at its absolute best. And so I was also like, why are some of these people in the room? But when Will was speaking and Jonathan's face was crumbling and Robin was nodding and Mike and Lucas and Dustin stood to hug him, I was like, this is really, this is lovely. So it was. Yeah, it was. I'm not surprised to, to hear that the, the, the reception I guess has been a little mixed and obviously, at.

[A]

Least from, from what I've been able to see, obviously, like me trolling through Reddit and social media is not a perfect temp check on people. One thing that he said in, in, in his coming out that, that I thought was particularly well written was when he was like, he was like, one thing I thought about people being worried about me.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Which would make me feel like there's something wrong with me. And I really love.

[B]

So I push you away.

[A]

Well, no, but I really love that. Like, that does that part because like, that is so often, I think like a well meaning reaction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From people of like, oh, I'm just worried because your life is going to be harder or this, that and the other thing. And so to identify that is like harmful in its own right. You know what I mean? Because there, I think that there are some people who would say, well, I support you, but I'm just worried about you. Right. And, and underlining what the message of that is, which is there's something incorrect about you, you know, and that's true. I mean, like, it's not you that's wrong, it's the world is wrong, like all these sort of things. But like that, that, that there is like some manner of harm inside of even that well meaning phrase. And so he doesn't say like, you know, I'm worried you're bigots or I'm worried you'll hate me or whatever. He's like, I'm worried that actually this kind of kind response carries this other thing that will drive a wedge. I thought that was really interesting. Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

No, I, I really agree. I. I agree. And you know, for, for Henry to. Because as Will is explaining this, he's like, this is, this is what he showed me, this future where these things have happened. And you know, for, for Will to say at the end of this scene, like, l. You need me and I need to be there and I'm ready to be. And like, I won't give Henry a character, by the way, who. It's interesting to think of Henry choosing to try to control and harm people this way because of course, when he was young, he always felt like you don't belong, like something is. Is different about you. That was how he explained to Eleven the world made him feel.

[A]

And Brenner controlled and hurt him.

[B]

And Brenner. Yeah. And like, you know, for Will to say, like, like it's not just the literal. I'm not going to let him control my mind, but like, I'm not going to let him control my fear. You know, it's such a powerful idea. Yeah. So I'm with you. It's. It's very. It is, it is. It is an intense and powerful thing to think about. You know, people watching this and receiving that message and feeling the way Will did by doing, talking to Robin, encouraged and empowered by it. That's. That's a, that's a really cool thing to think about.

[A]

Yeah. Sorry, that makes me emotional. Okay, so we head into battle.

[B]

Nancy.

[A]

Nancy plays Rambo.

[B]

Nancy loves a gun.

[A]

Nancy loves a gun. Which is something we've talked about since season one. Nancy's never killed a human before, as far as we know, and just gleefully mows down a bunch of people and, and then like. And then she and Hop are just like, yeah, by the way, I, I do really want to go back to Nancy for just one second and say. Because I just thought it was so funny when we were watching this episode and, and I went. And I re. We were watching the coming out scene, I rewound it several times, just really clock how everyone was responding. And I was like, nothing from Nancy, you know, And Diana was watching with me, called her who hates Nancy Wheeler. Called her, called Her a Christian pick me princess. The fact that that is coupled with this, like, gun toting, killing people, and like, essentially exchanging fist bumps with Hop over it is like. It's not painting a wonderful picture of Nancy Wheeler. We get a lot of meaningful glances with. With. With, you know, shared by people as the plot armor protects both them and the truck as it heads into the upside down military on their heels. Vecna locking the kids into collective trance at the 13 spots around the table. Anything. Any meaningful glance in particular that you want to highlight or anything in this. In these final moments.

[B]

I think we've hit them all. The. The. The nod. The little nod between 11 and. And K. I was. When all the kids eyes rolled up and their head snapped back, I was like, did Derek's eyes definitely, like, turn fully White House? My hope was that he was resisting somehow, but no. And then whether. Yeah. Whether genuinely Holly's, like, head trauma could potentially spare her.

[A]

We need all 12, but we don't need them conscious.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

All right, theory corner. We've already talked about a lot of this. This. Yeah. What about the Holly. The Holly of the heroic figurine? Is she gonna find that again and is that gonna be helpful in some way? Or does she find that, like, Max's song? She doesn't even need it.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. Because, like, I guess it could have served its purpose already, huh? I hope she picks that up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I'd like. I do. I kind of want the payoff of her picking that up. Even though we got it. I guess when the portal opened at the end of the. Of episode six. Yeah. It felt like when it broke and shattered and fell off, that we have to, like, reclaim that and take that back into our possession as the totem. And how we continue to hold that truth in our minds alongside the. Actually, we don't need these things, just the meaningful associations that they bring. I don't totally know. Yeah.

[A]

Tune in to find out. The only other thing that I have on this list that. That I put together here. We've already kind of talked about it, but this idea that, like, do we think Henry was made to feel ashamed? Like, if the. Again to this idea of a bug, not a feature, like Henry bludgeoning that scientist to death, which we both were like, dang, I know you got shot in the hand, but that's a lot. Given that the way that Vecna Henry VH1 works by making you feel shame. Do we think young Henry was manipulated in the first place by something like the mind Flayer making him feel shame for having. You know, did someone shame him into submission of like, you're. There's something wrong with you that you bludgeon that. And I kind of. Yeah. There's a little something wrong with you, Henry, if you bludgeon that guy to death. But. Right. But you know, is that. Was there. Is that. Is that. Is the cave such a dreaded place for him, though? How does the cave connect to the mineshaft? I don't know. But, like, is it such a dreaded place for him because it is a source of shame and he doesn't want to go there. And. And will 11 or Kali or will witness this and that will be the way in which they can say that wasn't your fault.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were just a kid. Yeah. And he shot you in the hand, you know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't. I don't know.

[B]

And then you made your paintry look like a hand. It really does all connect. Yes.

[A]

It's had Wheel who grasps that golf club with both of his hands.

[B]

Who reached for the. With his hands. Yeah. I think this feels.

[A]

Who once held Holly Wheeler in his lap with both hands so that his wife, Karen Wheeler, would not go and fuck Billy.

[B]

Let this be a lesson to have a comfy recliner in your home.

[A]

Something to think about.

[B]

Something to think about.

[A]

He voted for Reagan with both hands.

[B]

He put that Reagan signpost in his lawn with his hands. Or gave someone else money to do it with his hands. Oh, Ted, you're on our minds. I think this is as close to a lock as anything on the board that Henry has this shame that was exploited because. And I think what you said, maybe it's from this moment, the bludgeoning with the rock, but maybe you introduced the possibility last pod that maybe you're only capable of doing something like that because of what you have already done or what you already have inside of you. So it could be something prior to that as well. But the parallels that we have discussed at length across covering the show between 11 and 1 are there. And core to the text, the parallels between Vecna, between Henry and Will and Henry and these other kids that he's seeking and saying out loud every chance he gets. I'm taking these kids because they're weak. They can easily be controlled. I don't know that the show totally, like, makes sense if that's not him projecting his own past trauma and insecurity onto the thing that he's doing. So that feels like a. That feels like, I think, a Guarantee.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Anything else in Theory Corner that we haven't got to?

[B]

What's your final death prediction? Who do you think is going to. Gonna. You think it's. Is it just gonna be Kali?

[A]

Is that it? That's it.

[B]

What about Murray?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I mean, I don't want Marty to die. I want his weird sex jokes to live on. I guess they would if he died.

[A]

This just seems such, like, I hope.

[B]

They didn't bring Mr. Clark back just to kill him at some point. That's terrible.

[A]

He's at least not in the Upside down, so.

[B]

But is this beanstalk gonna work? Are these worlds not crashing into each other? Is everyone in hospital? Hawkins, like, fine. Are the only people in peril in the Upside Down?

[A]

So you're wondering, does everyone die? Does the world end?

[B]

Could be that. Okay, maybe it's just Kali, but maybe Henry as we know it.

[A]

Kali, Henry, and Murray.

[B]

I want Murray to be okay. I'm pulling Murray back off the board.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He would be, like, the right kind of person to kill, actually. But, like, that would be really sad. Maybe we'll find out Ted Wheeler died episodes ago, and that's why no one's brought him up. No, no, that would be terrible. But we could lose Ted still. So you think final. Final chance. You think Dustin and Steve are fine?

[A]

I do, yeah. Okay.

[B]

I really hope so. I'm scared still, but I really. I hope they're okay. And we think 11. Final prediction power's gone. But on this mortal coil, I think so. Or tbd. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Or at least, like, I don't know, says her powers are gone or something like that. And then we see, like. Yeah, I think. Oh, yeah, I think she lives. Yeah. Okay. He said they've had the final scene of this show in their mind for years. Final scene.

[B]

Is it 11 in front of a waterfall, looking at a picture of K. And then holding a note in her other hand from Hop and says, sorry, I shot her.

[A]

Is it. Oh. What if Hopper kills Kali? If Hopper kills Kali, hopper kills Kali, 11 will not forgive him.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

What if instead of a death, it's just, like, the end of a relationship?

[B]

A rupture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A rift of a different sort of.

[A]

I feel like Hopper's gonna kill Kali. Like, I really do.

[B]

I think he's definitely gonna be on the brink of doing it at some point. And perhaps then 11 will be like, I want to do this. This is what I want. You have to let me do this the way that you told me. I had to let you go into that hallway.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Super weird. If this ended with opera killing.

[A]

He's like, my kid died. So this. I mean, like, to go back to this, I will say there's a version of this. This makes sense to me in a very, like, Joel and Ellie, last of us, I will kill everyone in the world. Protect you. No. Kind of way.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's just if Joel had been like, I'm gonna kill another kid so that you can live. And we had to sit with that for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Several days versus in the moment of.

[B]

Yeah, we're getting that cordyceps grows in the brain. Sorry. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. What if the final scene is counting down to New Year's Eve 1990? We're in. We're in November 1989. Right. 87. Oh, 87. Oh, we've got time. But what if it's like, counting down to 1990? Like, the 80s are over. It's the 90s now.

[B]

They're applying for college, and somehow Buffy aced her sats and.

[A]

Yeah. They graduate high school. Yeah. And they're all together for New Year's or something like that. And it's 1990.

[B]

That would be nice.

[A]

Yeah. We did it. We did the 80s sort of thing. Do you love. How did it hurt your feelings? You number one timeline detective, for me to say, hey, is it 89 or 87? What year are we in?

[B]

It's fine. I'm very helpfully again, on the sneakers I just received. Just says 87 right on them. It's really handy.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I think I previously mentioned that my. My season three shoes also have a date on them. So that's like. That's great.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Just look. Look to your shoes.

[B]

Just look at my shoes.

[A]

Yeah. We will be back to cover the finale of Stranger Things.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

At what time? We don't know. Time matters a lot to Vecna and it matters to us as well, but we don't have a clear answer for that, but we'll figure it out and we'll let you know. Thank you to everyone who worked on this very special God, December 26 episode of House of R. What a crew today. It's like a.

[B]

It's.

[A]

We just like, brought it an all star team here. Tucker Tashian, thank you so much. Elisa Suji, thank you so much. Oscar De la Luce, thank you so much. Keith Fujimoto, thank you so much. Arjuna Rampal, thank you so much. Legends. Jomi, at some point, I'm sure will be involved in some social media stuff. Thank you so much. Thank you. To Mallory Rubin.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And actually your husband's. Jim Jams.

[B]

I was so warm. I had to shed the layer. I tried.

[A]

That's all. Anything else you want to say? No.

[B]

I will see you for the.

[A]

Oh, my God. I just realized.

[B]

What? I have no idea what you're gonna say.

[A]

Well, is that why the finale's on New Year's Eve? Because it ends with counting down New Year's Eve 1990, and we all get to count in the New Year with. With the Hawkins kids together.

[B]

Let me throw this out there. That if so that makes sense for the finale. Don't know why we had to also do Thanksgiving and Christmas, but it's been great.

[A]

Thanks, Netflix.

[B]

You're the best three holidays in a row we have have some notes but it has been genuinely a joy to talk about this show together.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I'm pretty sad that we only have one episode left.

[A]

I'm. I'm.

[B]

I'm bummed.

[A]

I know. But then Night of the Seven Kingdoms is here. Okay. I thanked everyone and I meant it. See you soon. Bye.