‘The Dark Knight’ With Mina Kimes | Nolan Revisited

Summary

‘The Dark Knight’ With Mina Kimes | Nolan Revisited

House of R | The Ringer
Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson
Guest: Mina Kimes
Date: May 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this Nolan Revisited installment of House of R, Mallory, Joanna, and special guest Mina Kimes deliver a wide-ranging, passionate, and often hilarious deep dive into Christopher Nolan’s ‘The Dark Knight’. The trio explore the film’s legacy, themes, performances (with a focus on Heath Ledger), the nature of heroism, its place in superhero and cinematic history, and offer signature House of R superlatives. The discussion orbits not only the film’s complexity and technical achievements but also its cultural impact, critical acclaim, and enduring resonance nearly twenty years later. Along the way, they dissect favorite scenes, character arcs, sharpest lines, and, quintessentially, what makes ‘The Dark Knight’ so singular in Nolan’s canon and movie history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why ‘The Dark Knight’? / Opening Thoughts

• Mina Kimes chose ‘The Dark Knight’ as her favorite Nolan film, with ‘The Prestige’ close behind (01:14).
• She offers a memorable analogy:

  "It's like paying for a $30 burger at a fancy restaurant—you think it’s pretentious, but then it’s so good, it’s worth it." (09:52, Mina Kimes)

• The hosts note the film’s legacy as both a critical and cultural touchstone, and its billion-dollar success as the first superhero film to cross that mark (09:24).

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2. Nolan’s Enduring Impact and Batman as a Character

• Joanna recalls how Batman’s “grounded” approach and darker tone in the animated series shaped a generation (13:21).
• Mina notes the appeal of Batman as a “somewhat grounded” hero who attracted her more than his super-powered peers – and highlights the influence of the Animated Series (13:35).
• The hosts reminisce about seeing the film in 2008, drawing personal connections and linking its pop culture impact to life milestones (14:02, 21:30).

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3. 2008: A Pivotal Year for Superhero Cinema

• The crew reflects on ‘The Dark Knight’ and ‘Iron Man’ both releasing in 2008, launching a new era for Marvel and DC and signaling seismic shifts in Hollywood (15:00):

  "...you look at what a superhero movie at its best can be, and the combination of Dark Knight...and Iron Man, which...is undeniable in terms of what it launched...you look back at this year as a year that changed movies..." (16:30, Mallory Rubin)

• Discussion of box office, critical response, and Oscar fallout—specifically, how ‘The Dark Knight’s’ snub for Best Picture led directly to the Academy expanding the field (20:15, Joanna Robinson).

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4. Heath Ledger’s Performance & Legacy

• The group lavishes praise on Ledger, calling his Joker “not only the best villain performance ever” but “one of the best movie performances of the century” (27:12, Mallory Rubin).
• They discuss the tragedy of Ledger’s death, how his performance gains poignancy with time, and the behind-the-scenes stories—like the Joker’s distinctive lip-licking, which originated from a practical makeup issue but became a chilling character tic (28:01, Mina Kimes; 29:51, Joanna Robinson).
• The restraint of not referencing Joker’s fate in ‘Dark Knight Rises’ "works better...it's forever under glass inside of this movie" (30:28, Joanna Robinson).

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5. Themes: Morality, Self-Conception, and the Idea of Home

• The film’s exploration of moral ambiguity and the challenge to Batman’s self-conception is dissected, with specific reference to the Rachel and Harvey dilemma—"Batman makes the selfish choice…in the middle of the movie…" (32:06, Mina Kimes).
• They see the film as Nolan’s exploration of choices—spanning politics, surveillance, power, and consequence—and connecting to post-9/11 America (37:34, Joanna Robinson; 38:01, Mina Kimes).
• The search for “home”—personally, for Bruce; socially, for Gotham—is discussed as a recurring Nolan motif (39:19, Joanna Robinson).

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6. Artistry & Craft (Cinematography, Score, Iconic Shots)

• They highlight the film’s visual mastery, with Joanna loving the shot of Batman in the rubble post-Rachel's death (62:54), and Mallory choosing Joker’s head-out-the-car moment as "one of the most iconic shots in any superhero film" (61:51).
• The group expounds on Hans Zimmer’s score, especially the two-note ‘Why So Serious?’ Joker motif—created with string instruments and razor blades, and its unsettling, unresolved feel (109:11, Joanna Robinson & Mina Kimes).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Nolan's Genius

  “It’s like you’re paying for a $30 burger…but then…you’re like, wow, this was worth it.”
  (09:52, Mina Kimes)

• On Ledger's Joker:

  “Every time I revisit this movie, you have that moment going in where you’re like, will this be as good as I remember? It’s somehow better…”
  (27:12, Mallory Rubin)

• On Rachel’s Death:

  “The smartest writing decision—Batman makes the selfish choice. And doing it in the middle of the movie…”
  (32:06, Mina Kimes)

• Iconic Line Origin:

  “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain” was written by Jonathan Nolan—Chris Nolan admitted he didn’t initially get it.
  (43:48, Joanna Robinson)

• On Joker’s Moral Chaos:

  “I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.”
  (58:21, Joker quoting, referenced by Joanna Robinson & Mina Kimes)

• Riffing About Accents:

  "Gary Oldman. Every New York neighborhood mixed into one…It does wander."
  (72:32, Mina Kimes)

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Segment Timestamps Guide

• Intro / Picking the Film / Nolan Love: 00:00–11:06
• Batman Fandom & The Animated Series: 12:27–13:44
• 2008: The Year That Changed Superhero Movies: 14:02–17:37
• Oscars Impact & Critical Reception: 18:13–21:13
• Personal Recollections of Seeing the Film: 21:30–25:24
• Heath Ledger Discussion: 27:12–30:28
• Legacy, Structure, & Moral Themes: 32:06–40:25
• Visual Tone & Iconic Shots: 60:18–62:54
• Score Deep-Dive (Zimmer): 109:11–111:23
• Superlative Awards & Category Highlights: 46:58–121:22
• Odyssey Hype & Closing: 117:17–124:23

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Superlative Rounds: Bests, Funniest, Stealth MVPs & More

• Funniest Moments: Joker fixing his hair at the fundraiser; “I killed the bus driver!”; Alfred’s dry one-liners (47:24–49:33).
• Best Set Piece: Opening bank heist unanimously praised for its intricacy, clarity, and show-don’t-tell storytelling (50:12–53:06).
• Gorgeous Shot: Joker walking away from the hospital, daytime chaos as character statement; Joker out the car window (60:23–61:51).
• Most Satisfying Twist: Joker’s swap of Rachel/Harvey addresses; the ferry scene’s resolution (99:28–101:48).
• Best Stunt: The semi-truck flip and the Batpod chase—praised for practical effects and visceral impact (76:17–80:23).
• Horniest Moment: Bruce emerging from a safe room after entertaining a boatload of ballerinas—"ballet boat orgy as alibi is historic" (103:22–103:39).
• MVP/Miscast/Stealth Star: Debate over Aaron Eckhart as Harvey Dent; Lucius Fox (Morgan Freeman) as the underappreciated moral cornerstone; David Dastmalchian’s debut (81:31–84:49).
• Line That Hits Hardest Now: “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain,” and “Some men just want to watch the world burn” (104:01–105:19).

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Thematic Takeaways and Analysis

• The group probes Nolan’s favorite fixations: the ambiguity of morality, the tension between symbol and individual, the price of heroism, and the tendency to “make a puzzle box of everything.” They also position ‘The Dark Knight’ as an inflection point in both superhero fare and Nolan’s oeuvre, noting its influence on everything from Oscars protocol to the dark, grounded color palette adopted by many successors (114:05–116:06).

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Anticipation for ‘The Odyssey’

• The team expresses excitement for Nolan’s upcoming ‘The Odyssey,’ especially regarding its Trojan Horse sequence and how Nolan will bring his trademark cerebral, puzzle-box energy to mythic source material (117:17–120:22).
• Joanna teases a potential musical-influenced direction, per advance press:

  “In Nolan’s version, Damon also has to perform an existential crisis as those sirens psychoanalyze him through song. …that could not be more your shit.” (120:47–120:54)

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Final Reflections

• Closing thoughts circle back to Nolan’s strengths (structure, moral complexity, technical mastery), as well as their own nostalgia, the power of Ledger’s Joker, and the Dark Knight’s lasting position as arguably the gold standard for superhero films—which, in their view, has yet to be dethroned.

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SELECTED SUPERLATIVE HALL OF FAME

• Joker Head Out the Car Window (61:51, Mallory Rubin)
• Hospital Explosion, Improvised Lag (60:23, Mina Kimes)
• Batman Choosing Self-Sacrifice at the End (94:18, Mina Kimes; 95:20, Mallory Rubin)
• Gordon’s “Dead Cop Dad” Subplot: The “most baffling, yet House of R-beloved, writing choice” (73:31, 79:06–79:37).

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode…

This episode is an energizing, in-depth, and affectionate celebration of ‘The Dark Knight’ in all its facets, weaving film critique, personal nostalgia, meme culture, and insightful superlative awards. It’s a rich resource both for fans of the film and for anyone interested in why Christopher Nolan’s work remains so culturally and critically significant.

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Listen to the full conversation for:

• Passionate, sometimes heated, debate about Harvey Dent’s casting (86:26 onward)
• Rich dissection of themes of surveillance, power, and choice in the Bush era
• Loving tribute to Heath Ledger’s magnetic legacy
• Hype for Nolan’s next odyssey—literal and figurative

House of R: Your regular appointment for nerd culture as high art and as lived, joked-about, deeply personal experience.

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

Foreign.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hello, welcome to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. That's Mali Rubin. But joining us today, it's Mina Kais. Hi, Mina. How are you doing?

[Mina Kais]

I'm good. I'm so excited. We've never done a podcast together. I've done so many ringer podcasts.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know, I know.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is a moment of truth.

[Mina Kais]

This is a big moment. Yeah. I'm excited.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a real moment. It's Friend of the Podmon.

[Mallory Rubin]

It is.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we decided to bring. I consider you a friend, even though we've never done a podcast together. I'm just a huge fan of yours. So can you be a friend of a fan? A fan of a friend?

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely, lady.

[Joanna Robinson]

Welcome.

[Mallory Rubin]

Always the highlight of my year to get to POD together. One of the things I look forward to most, whether it's about the Bachelor or a movie or football. Wouldn't have been friend of the POD month without you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us.

[Mina Kais]

Thank you for giving me. You gave me, like, a solid choice, too, of Nolan movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah. You got to pick which POD you wanted to. Let's just be real. Not everybody gets to pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's true. And we said, hey, is there a Nolan movie of these remaining that you want to do? And you were like, hey, why not the Dark Knight?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, a little movie called the Dark

[Mina Kais]

Knight, which I feel is kind of lame because it's like being given a choice of the most popular. I mean, I made the obvious choice.

[Joanna Robinson]

You didn't want to do Oppenheimer. Is what you say.

[Mina Kais]

The Dark. I mean, I guess just say it. This is my favorite Nolan movie. So Prestige is close.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mina Kais]

Those are kind of 1A, 1B for me, but this is my favorite. So when you gave me the choice,

[Mallory Rubin]

it was an easy one.

[Mina Kais]

Like, I'm just gonna choose my favorite, the best movie, and nobody's ever done a podcast about the Dark Knight before.

[Mallory Rubin]

We will be the first.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, we're braced.

[Mallory Rubin]

We'll be the first.

[Mina Kais]

No critics have ever discussed this.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will perhaps. Three women have not made a podcast that is entirely possible. So here we are. We're gonna get to that right after this.

[Mallory Rubin]

This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Calling all trainers the Pokemon. And target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here, and the lineup is kind of incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

A few are sure to be fan faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles, and even caboodles, which feels

[Mallory Rubin]

perfect because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure. And Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit.

[Joanna Robinson]

The first drop is in store May

[Mallory Rubin]

2 online May 3 with the second drop June 6.

[Joanna Robinson]

Explore [e-mail]. All right, Mallory, it's Friend of the Pod Month.

[Mina Kais]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

What's going on in the feed in general?

[Mallory Rubin]

Boy, let's see. Where are we? It's the middle of the month. Yes, it's the middle of Friend of the Pod month. So next week is, at long last, Mando Grogu week. And we can say this out loud now because we have already recorded it. We are moving in a very Nolan esque fashion in and out of linear. We had the pleasure last night of recording our Mando Grogu primer and a general Star wars chat with the one and only Damon Lindelof.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thrilled, honored, delighted.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just an incredible treat. Wonderful. That will be coming out at the top of the week. We have a little Survivor special coming in the middle of the week. If travel plans and everything works, work out during finale week. And then we're gonna actually be talking about Mando Grogu. And you know, I've said it every pod. I'm gonna keep saying it until I can manifest it into existence. Because it's Friend of the Pod month. I am still holding out hope that Grogu will be joining us on that episode.

[Joanna Robinson]

Grogu, friend of the Pod? Absolutely. Why not?

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's. I think it's a thing that we should try I think it's a thing that we should try and see how the babbles and coos and grumbles translate into an episode. Now that podcasts are on video, I think it's worth doing.

[Joanna Robinson]

How can folks make sure that they don't miss Grogu's first, but certainly not last appearance on the podcast on our podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, he probably is still on others. Follow the pod, follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify or on the Ringerverse YouTube channel and follow our brand spanking new Instagram and TikTok handle ouseofarapod. Mina.

[Joanna Robinson]

Where can the people find you?

[Mallory Rubin]

Find you. You wanna plug?

[Mina Kais]

Yeah, this is my off season, which is nice, but I still podcast every week. The Meena Kyme show featuring Lenny, who's my co host.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shout out Lenny.

[Mina Kais]

Shout out Lenny who is my dog. I don't know if you're. In case you're wondering who Lenny is, I also do a weekly podcast with my friend David Dennis Jr. I don't know if you've ever met Him. It started as a love is blind pod because we just. Love is blind. And then we branched out and talking about other shows. We're currently doing the Boys. That's called Viewer Discretion. It's also on my YouTube channel. So you can do either of those.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, you've been deep in the nerdverse. You guys were doing Alien Earth.

[Joanna Robinson]

You also have, like, a really enviable bookcase set up behind you. I always get really jealous when people have an excellent bookcase behind them.

[Mina Kais]

Thank you so much. I've been meaning to rotate the books a little bit more because people start to kind of notice them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can you put a sign behind you that says Seattle Mariners, please call up Colt Emerson because Mallory needs him on her Al only keeper team. That'd be helpful.

[Mina Kais]

That's a long sign.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. That's a lot to ask, Mallory. Can you shorten it up for me to.

[Mina Kais]

I'll look into it. I do have. Yeah, I have that dog's welcome people tolerated sign. Maybe I could go right there. Yeah, that's.

[Mallory Rubin]

I would appreciate it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Spoiler for the Dark Knight, a movie that hopefully folks have seen. I think a few people have seen it, so hopefully you've seen the Dark Knight. Batman's in it. So is the Joker. Spoiler alert. It's coming up. Why are we doing this? It's 64 days until the Odyssey, a film that I hear is hotly anticipated in your household.

[Mina Kais]

It's a big one for us. I mentioned to you before we started taping, my husband studied Latin. And for those who don't know much about Latin, not a lot of uses for it in the real world. Doesn't come up a lot in most industries or casual conversation. This is one of his rare opportunities to use his Latin studies, I suppose. And when we saw the trailer in the. We went to the IMAX Avatar screen and we saw the Trojan horse scene, which I still can't decide if I like that they did that. It's incredible, right? But the whole time I'm like, this would have been incredible in the movie. I don't know how people have mixed feelings about that, but it did make it look absolutely unbelievable.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was thinking about that a lot because when they did the Dark Knight, they showed the opening sequence of the Dark Knight, the opening six minutes, I think, in theaters before the movie came out. So something that Nolan's been doing. Not for all of his movies, but I definitely remember that he did it for the Dark Knight.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm out on the huge chunk. Like the fact that you could go and see 30 minutes of the Mandalorian and Grogu. I don't. That's too much of the movie. I'm. I'm into the like, here's a one minute scene, here's a two and a half minute scene as a way to like, you know, and you can decide if you're consuming those or not. You get a little bit of a feel that's a. That's more than a trailer and feels like you're really like the drumbeat is unfolding, but you haven't seen just like an actual giant slice of the film without being able to finish it. That feels like a real cock tease to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

On the other hand, I think there's a benefit of seeing a sequence and rather than seeing feeling. Well, we all know, hopefully we know basically the story of the Odyssey, but if you don't, you know, like seeing a lot of trailers, just feel. You feel like you've seen the whole movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

So maybe I would rather just see just one scene.

[Joanna Robinson]

Them haul the Trojan horse out of the ocean or something like that.

[Mina Kais]

It's just so good. And I'm watching a thing. What if this is the best scene? Because I think it's just a strong chance. Maybe not interesting. Like I should you put your best scene. Oh, again, I haven't seen the movie, so maybe it's not the best scene. But it is, I thought, an unbelievable scene. I mean, you know, it's shot partially from inside the horse. I've never seen anything like that. And we were just like tense watching it.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I feel like he knows that there are 10 scenes that are better.

[Mina Kais]

I hope so.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that's why he's doing it. Now here's the question. What if they had only put out the seven seconds of Pattinson saying pining for a daddy and that had been the only way they teased the movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or what if it's just Charlize walking in slow mo towards the camera?

[Mallory Rubin]

I also would have found that acceptable.

[Joanna Robinson]

Enticing.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait for this film. Seated.

[Joanna Robinson]

Enticing.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait for this film.

[Joanna Robinson]

She said seated. Just take note. Yeah, Mallory keeps getting it wrong.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do they say sat or I'm seated because I feel like that's part of meme culture is to like fuck with the grammar just to show you can.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then I keep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mina has it handled. You're still working on it and that's fine. Remaining Nolan's that we have left tenet.

[Mina Kais]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Dark Knight rises and we're ending with Oppenheimer. Even though we did not do this in order, we are ending with Oppenheimer just because it feels right to do that. So that is the plan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Computer going away.

[Mina Kais]

It was overheating with just so much Nolan information that I had put on there.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know, filed away here.

[Mina Kais]

You know what? I don't need switching to my phone, but. Which doesn't make noises.

[Joanna Robinson]

But let's go now to our opening snapshot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it.

[Joanna Robinson]

This film, if you don't know, was directed by Christopher Nolan, screenplay by Jonathan Nolan and Chris Nolan, with a story credit for David Goyer, who worked in it for like, I think three months before they handed it over to Jonathan Nolan. July 18, 2008 was the US wide release. The budget was $185 million, but the worldwide box office was over $1 billion. Billion with a B dollars for the dark Knight. Pretty big movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very popular and beloved film. It would actually have been weird to look back and see if this movie had not crossed the billion dollar threshold, given some that have.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was the first superhero movie to do that. And it's a, you know, part of it is the Chinese box office, which we'll talk about when we get to one of the sequences. Like, this is a different era of sort of global filmmaking. But yeah, first superhero movie to make a billion dollars. The Dark Knight. Mina, what does Christopher Nolan mean to you?

[Mina Kais]

So I, as I said, Dark Knight is my favorite Christopher Nolan film. Prestige is 1B, I would say. I love his films. I was trying to think of how to describe why I love them. And the analogy that I was driving here, I was thinking about was, you know, when you go to a restaurant and it's really expensive and like 40 plus dollar entrees, so you order like a $28 burger because it's slightly cheaper than everything else, and you're just like, God, we're paying this much for a burger. But then you eat the burger and it's the best goddamn burger you've ever had in your life. And you're like, wow, this $30 burger was worth it. That's how I feel about Nolan films, where it's, here's this comfort food and you're gonna. On its face, it seems pretentious that like a superhero movie or whatnot should be this long and with this many pretentious elements and actors and all of that. But it's done so well that you end up appreciating it, if that makes sense.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mina Kais]

That's how I feel about his movies where, like, I'm always like, does this really need to be this much? This long, this have this many. And then at the end, you're like, yeah, it did.

[Joanna Robinson]

And you're like, that was a damn good burger. Gourmet burger. Love it. Are there any Nolan movies that haven't worked for you?

[Mina Kais]

So I haven't seen Tenet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Full disclosure, it was a pandemic. A lot of people didn't go see it.

[Mina Kais]

I started it. So I guess, to answer your question. And I was like, I just can't do this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I.

[Mina Kais]

No. Is that.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. We were. It's low on our respective and shared list, and it's one of the things we've been getting as we've been doing this rewatch project. Some feedback from the bad babies on. I'd say there is a lot of, like, give Tenant another chance coming from the listeners. One of my problems with Tenet was I, like, as I've said on all of these pods now, could not hear a fucking word that the character said.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we're hoping closed captioning will help Mallory's enjoyment of the movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I am, though, genuinely eager to revisit it because Nolan is one of my favorite directors, and, you know, I love many of his movies. And then going through, in this fashion, his entire filmography and, you know, being able to appreciate what feels distinct film to film, as he dabbles across genre and time and approach, but also these, like, undeniable aspects of connective tissue, both in terms of theme and, you know, structure and craft. I do feel like it's. You'll guarantee that we appreciate it more. Whether that means I come to love it is, I think, a different question.

[Joanna Robinson]

What degree of more is the question. Yeah. What's your relationship to Batman as a character?

[Mina Kais]

So I always loved Batman growing up. I watched all the movies. Even I remember Batman and Robin was the final one before Nolan took over.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Mina Kais]

We saw that in the theater. It's so. It's probably one of the worst movies I've ever seen in the theater to this date. And I remember vividly there's a scene where they're, like, trying to hack into the computer, the mainframe, and it keeps saying, access denied. My brother and I would do that to each other forever. But we. My brother and I also really grew up on the Animated Series, which was, what, three? It wasn't even that long, but it was, like, weirdly influential for us as kids because it felt so dangerous for a kids show. You remember Mark Hamill, the Joker. I was thinking about that when I was thinking about other jokers watching this. And I think I just love. I've always been a person who likes things that feel somewhat grounded in reality. So I've always preferred Batman to other superheroes for that reason. And the villains.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, the Animated Series. When you find out how many episodes there were which wasn't that many, it's astonishing because it feels like it was on an every day after school and I was just sort of like. I guess they were just running it back, which is why it's so burned in our memory because they were. We were just like running back those episodes constantly.

[Mina Kais]

The theme song.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

Hits so.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

So good.

[Joanna Robinson]

It really does.

[Mina Kais]

What a golden age, though, of 90s kids cartoon.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like

[Mina Kais]

one of the best theme songs of all time. But anyways, I remember the Batman.

[Mallory Rubin]

School.

[Joanna Robinson]

Busy school bus. The same. It's exactly the same great one where. I'm just curious. Something we've been doing as we check in is sort of like, where were we in 2008 when this came out? So where were you, Mina?

[Mina Kais]

I feel like I'm really talking about my husband a lot in this. We started dating in 2008 and this was one of our first dates, was in Brooklyn. We were living at the time. We went to the theater in Cobble Hill to see this movie, which, can I say, horrible buzzkill for an early relationship. Cause, you know, we had gone to dinner, we had just started dating. This is obviously, you know, been together a very long time. We go to see this movie and we walk out and we're like stone faced, just like. Well, the flirtatious element of this night is over. The other thing that I remembered though was one of our other early dates was Iron man, which was around same year. Same year. And neither of us are like, my husband's definitely not a superhero person. So it's kind of odd that we saw both of those movies on early dates. And also I don't think we realized we might have seen the apex for both Marvel and DC in the same year and didn't know it at the time. And it's funny to look at both those movies coming out that same year and thinking about the different experiences.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, like spring and summer really close together too. I mean, obviously like Dark Knight is just undeniable still to this day, in some ways, frankly, more so even than it was at the time. The stature has only grown and been cemented as like superhero bloat has kind of taken over Hollywood. Like there's, you know, you have this immediate impact of the film. We'll talk about some of the Academy Awards stuff. Obviously, Ledger's performance, et cetera. Nolan rising as. He made this into, like, this just director of a different cast.

[Joanna Robinson]

It cements something for him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Absolutely. Definitely. And then now you go back to it, and it's like, okay, we see other. We've had so many other movies that we love. You know, we've had Infinity War and Endgame and Winter Soldier. Right. But there have been so many superhero movies that have, like, led to questioning the impact of the kind of creep of IP across Hollywood. And then you look at what a superhero movie at its best can be, and the combination of Dark Knight, which is just this, like, rarefied air for art, and then Iron man, which, like, is not my favorite MCU movie, but is undeniable in terms of what it launched, you know, and what it. What it. What it wrought. You know, we get a decade and a half of the Infinity saga, which is one of the defining shared experiences for people of our generation and a lot of people in the world. So you look back at this year as a year that changed movies and what people thought movies could and should be, and that's like. Like pretty cool, especially to have, like, the MCU to have Marvel and DC kind of united in a very different way. Those films are quite distinct.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is it because they say MCU so

[Mallory Rubin]

many times, it is confusing. Let's do a different acronym. So many things we could say about Gordon and the squad.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think they stopped doing that for the Dark Knight Rises. We'll check when we rewatch it. Also, there's the moment in this movie when Harvey Dent claims to be Batman at a press conference. But, like, were you not thinking of Tony Stark and Iron Man?

[Mina Kais]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's funny to think about it because. Because they came out the same year. It's not that Marvel was chasing the Dark Knight because they were being made at the same time, but they were chasing Batman Begins. They were definitely chasing Nolan, and they were chasing what DC was doing. And Batman Begins had already changed the reputation of what superhero films could be. And they wanted to aim for something like that. And then they just happened to launch at the same time that the movie that I think is still the gold standard for what a comic book superhero movie can be. You could argue Logan's. Maybe there's like, a few other. But, like, yeah, I really think the Dark Knight has that crown, and nothing has knocked it off the throne since. So, yeah, in some ways,

[Mallory Rubin]

I think you could make a non Trolly, like good faith case that that's been to the detriment of like society's ability to just like appreciate other genre films on their own merit. Because every movie is compared to the Dark Knight, which is just like a Titanic achievement.

[Mina Kais]

But I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, even like, you know, our list, the holy grail for the knighting, you know, whether something is like really that good. No, but like, you know, you had a big moment last year with something like the new, the New York Times top 100 list, the best movies of the century so far. And like there were only two superhero movies on that list, despite how central and prominent superhero comic book films have been this century. Yeah, but that's Black Panther.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's kind of an intentional part of a book backlash moments.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Dark Knight was at number 28 on that list, which, like, I mean, if anything you could have said it should have been higher. Right. But like, you look at that and there's not a person looking at that list who's like, how dare they put the Dark Knight in the top 30 on this list? It's like, yeah, of course it should be there.

[Mina Kais]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the, you know, I'm excited to talk about some of the Oscars history and what this changed on that front because like, we don't do that a lot on this pod. But it did feel like such a moment. I think also it's important to say that like, this was not the first good or great superhero movie. Of course. Right. And there had been plenty of wonderful and impactful and really memorable and accomplished superhero films before, but this elevated and kind of like cracked a little bit maybe of like the ceiling and sphere of just who is even talking about or thinking about what a superhero movie can do in a way that is like really important for the form.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think that Oscar's conversation is really important to part of this because I don't like the notion of like elevated horror or legitimizing genre things because it makes you feel like you should be ashamed or certain people shouldn't be talking about it. But the way in which this not only got an Oscar for Heath Ledger, and then, you know, like, Joaquin Phoenix could probably thank Heath Ledger for his Oscar for playing the Joker as well, because without that Oscar, that doesn't happen, among other things. But like, there are a lot of, of course, extenuating tragic circumstances for why that performance was even more elevated come that Oscar season. But the bigger impact it had was the fact that the Dark Knight wasn't nominated for best picture caused such an uproar and such an accusation of stuffiness, like, thrown at the Academy that they expanded how many films that they put in the Best picture category. And it's never shrunk back down since, you know, they're like, we're not gonna. We're not gonna. We will nominate you 8th down the list just so that people will be appeased that, you know, Top gun, Maverick or F1 or whatever is being acknowledged at the Oscars, and we're never gonna make that Dark Knight mistake again. That. That is one of the most impactful changes that has happened to the Oscars, like, in all of its history.

[Mallory Rubin]

Slumdog Millionaire, which won the Curious Case of Benjamin Button, Frost, Nixon, Milk, and the Reader. That is not acceptable.

[Mina Kais]

I feel like that's what makes the change so, like, silly in retrospect. You didn't need to expand it. You just needed to make one of the correct pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's great to have 10 films because it's a way to, like, celebrate more movies and hopefully draw more attention to them. But, like, I agree with you. Certainly that shouldn't be now.

[Mina Kais]

Since then, a bunch of, like, blockbuster films have gotten in that are nowhere near the caliber of the Dark. And it feels like, well, that's this year's Dark Knight. What was it even last year? There was a ridiculous. Oh, it was F1.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

Okay. Well, you know, fun movie. But my point is, like, it's just for sure that's not the Dark. You know, I think it should have been one of the five. It's just like, Chloe, no question.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a great injustice. It is.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, but Ledger got an Oscar for it, like, and Nolan has a ton of Oscars, so I'm not. I don't know that I count. There are worst, in my opinion, injustices in the history of the Oscars.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Mad Max, Fury Road.

[Joanna Robinson]

Absolutely, Absolutely. I would agree. I would agree. Number one with a bullet.

[Mallory Rubin]

I loved that moment on that draft. So it was very important. I was clapping for you. I was in the car listening, clapping. I'm like, there's my joke.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was very weird. That movie rules to go back. Mallory, where Were you in 2008?

[Mallory Rubin]

So, as I've mentioned before, Iron man was the last movie. That was the year I graduated College, May of 08. So that was the last movie that I saw in Syracuse with my friends before leaving to go be an adult. And so the dawn of the MCU is so clearly, to me, linked to a moment in time of transition in my life. And so that this would have been my first summer in New York, so I would have been in my first year at sports illustrated si.com working on, like, cheerleader of the week for SI on campus and just, like, trying to

[Mina Kais]

make it in the side, by the way. Cheerleader of the Week.

[Mallory Rubin]

No. So, yeah, that's where I was. New York in the summer. And, like, you know, had seen and loved Iron man and was just thrilled to see this. I. This is not gonna surprise you at all. And we'll talk about this and interrogate this more when we do the Dark Knight Rises pod. Obviously, this is my favorite of the three Batman movies, and clearly the best. Joe makes fun of me. I have, like, a real deep and abiding affection for Dark Knight Rises, and I actually saw that one in the theaters more than I saw this one in the theaters.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's mostly how you insist that everyone loves Bane. Everyone loves Bane, and that's just not true.

[Mallory Rubin]

Everyone loves Bane.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's just not true.

[Mina Kais]

You couldn't understand anything in tenet, but you were cool with the audio of Bane.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Because. Yes. With the stretch of our cinema consumption where Tom Hardy has just refused to show his full face and grumbles and mumbles through some sort of obstruction is something that I really appreciate and love. And I think the Bane voice is iconic, genuinely iconic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something I found out in doing research for this that I didn't know is that I guess Nolan had Christian Bale go back and ADR a bunch of his lines in this movie to make the Batman voice, like, gruffer and grumblier and, honestly, harder to understand.

[Mallory Rubin]

Talk about a voice that doesn't work for everyone. Yeah, definitely.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was like, take that swear to me and make it even more intense in the dark night. I was in the city working, I think, at bookstores, and my, like, junior, we were just talking about him, Harley Earle, my junior, my high school prom date, came to town and he just, like, got off a bus. I distinctly remember this. Got off the bus, and then we went right across the street to the Metreon to watch the Dark Knight. And we stopped on the way at this liquor store that I know is right on the corner there to get Mickey's grenades, like the little malt liquor grenades that I like. Only in my twenties could I drink and never after. And we definitely smuggled those into the Metreon IMAX and just watched the Dark Knight and had the best time.

[Mallory Rubin]

Formative memories.

[Mina Kais]

What a time capsule. I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really memorable. Mickey's very important. Some context. I mean, anything else you want to say in a big picture way about the Dark Knight and its own.

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess, you know, we've talked, I think, appropriately here at the House of R about this film's lasting legacy as a superhero movie and a comic book movie and a genre movie. But I think it's worth also saying it is one of the best sequels ever made, one of the best and most accomplished, like linchpins in a trilogy ever made. And it is a genre film of. Of many forms. It is one of the best. You don't need to give a. About Batman or the Joker at all. This is one of the best action movies ever made. Like, we have, you know, the set piece category, a stunt category. We'll get to celebrate the specifics. But, like, I can just hear CR saying, this is Heat. Like, which it is, right? Well, it's an overt homage and, like, it's a. A impressive one. You can do that and be like, this is kind of like you tried to make Heat in your own way with your. With characters who people have been exploring on page and screen for decades on end, and it sucked. And that is not what happened here. It's like, every single thing about this is amazing. And, you know, it's. So you. You said at the beginning, like. And I think a lot of people say this when they're talking about not just Dark Knight, but, like, the. The Nolan Batman film specifically.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, there are plenty of people who would say Chicago just doesn't look enough like comic book Gotham to me. And I actually don't like that about this. But for many people, the fact that these are so rooted in reality is, like, part of the appeal. They're very adult films. Right? And, like, for the fact that the. This is obviously part of, like, Batman as a character in general, and there are other heroes who give us this. Batman is not. Does not have superpowers right now. You could say, certainly, like, wealth and resources are a superpower and they are in a form. But, like, the Joker does not have superpowers, and so does he.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not an entire truck flips over and he just sort of like, rolls out and is fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Maybe he has some sort of, like, cloaking, because, granted, after a grievous injury, but Harvey Dent just is looking up at him in the hospital scene and he has a surgical mask on and a wig, but he doesn't recognize these jokes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Honestly, I think even. I think even worse is when he's in the honor guard, right in of,

[Mallory Rubin]

like, wearing the makeup.

[Joanna Robinson]

Wild Cop of Gotham is just sort of like who's that guy with the

[Mina Kais]

scars going on in this?

[Mallory Rubin]

Unbelievable. But, yeah, you know, like, people have been doing Batman and Joker individually and together forever, and this felt fresh and indelible. Obviously, a huge, huge, huge part of that is the Heath Ledger performance, which people have been praising since the moment this movie came out. And we cannot possibly praise enough. It is not only the best villain performance ever, we just. We did our Villains podcast. You had him at the top. It is one of the best movie performances of the century. Like, rewatching it. Every time I revisit this movie, you have that moment going in where you're like, will this be as good as I remember it's somehow better, which is just such a hard thing in this, like, saturation era.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah. One of the questions, like, was it, like, watching this 20 years later? And for me, with the Ledger performance, you do notice new things. I mean, just the physical aspects of her performance. Like the thing where he, like, just haphazardly licks his lips, like, constantly in this little physical movements. But I think what. Cause this. Obviously this wasn't a performance that was appreciated time and continues to be regarded as such. I just felt this time watching it. It's been about 10 years for me, to be honest. Just profoundly, like, sad. Not about, obviously, his death as a human, but like, the career that we were deprived of. And I think now with even more distance from it, thinking, like, how much older he would be and how many different roles he could have inhabited. And what about strange and interesting actor he was, who did so many different things, including 10 things I hate about yout, which is a canon performance for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very important.

[Mina Kais]

But we watched this movie. You're like, oh, my God. He would have been one of Troy, one of the great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I remember this is. I don't know. I don't know if this is a tonally correct story, but I was not working at a bookstore. I was working. I just started at City Arts and lectures. There were three of us in the office. One person went into the bathroom. I got the news alert that Heath Ledger had died. And then he came out of the bathroom. I was like, heath Ledger died? And he was like. When I was in the bathroom, and I was like. Kind like, yes. And it was just, like, so shocking. It was just. He was like, that's a joke. And I was like, no, he's died. And he was like, he was so young. And then 28, reminding ourselves as we're older, it feels even younger. 28 is just, like, absolutely insane to think about. And it's like, to watch this is to feel that the whole time you're watching it. What we've lost the licking, which I didn't know, apparently, is because his prosthetics kept coming off, and he had to use his tongue to keep them in place. And then he just made it a tick of his character. That's so creepy and scary, and I just love that sort of necessity. Mother of Invention. Like, I'm having issues with my prosthetics, so I'll make this insane character choice that works throughout the whole thing and just heightens everything. But, yeah, it's an inextricable part of this movie that would have been outstanding no matter what, but now has this, like, extra emotional resonance to it that you can't avoid.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I think there's. I really love the way you just put that about, like, he feels even younger now that we're older, because there was something about being a young person when it happened, and you're thinking about that age and how young it sounds. But now, as the passage of time, like. And, you know, he had come off Brokeback, and I mean, we all love 10 Things I Hate about you, but, like, the Brokeback background and this, like, multiple Oscar nominations. Right. There was this sense that he was.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's an anointing of something. Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And so it is just desperately sad in so many respects. And I think, like, the restraint that Nolan, given the depth of their bond and his, like, admiration for this experience that they had shared and. And for this role and what it meant to people and to the film to, like, not do the kind of bullshit that so many other filmmakers and studios would have done in the next movie, to be like, let's explain what happened to the Joker. It's just like, let's not do that in the movie at all. It was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it was really interesting. I was reading some interviews of, you know, Jonathan Nolan, Chris Nolan, David Goyer at the time, and everyone was trying to ask them sort of, what are. You know, obviously, you leave him alive. What are you going to do? And all of them, you know, they had been, you know, had decided on their messaging was just sort of like, it is way too soon for us to even contemplate what we're going to do. We are still grappling with this, like, the emotional reality of this. And I agree with you. It just. It works so much better to just be, like, contained. It is just forever under glass inside of this movie. Yeah. Really quick. Well, so some we've been as we've been going through these Nolan movies. We've been hitting a couple themes over and over again. And so one of the themes was just sort of this idea of your inability to know yourself. That's something that's cropped up sort of in some of the later, the more recent ones that we've been checking in on more and more. And you mentioned the Prestige. I was thinking about the Prestige a lot, especially when I found out we'll talk about Harvey Dent plenty, but that Hugh Jackman was one of the people really considered for Harvey Dent. And I was like, wow, if we had gotten off of the Prestige, which they did right before this, Christian Bale and Hugh Jackman, once again, as these sort of mirrors of each other circling each other, would that have been too prestigy? Like, how would that have felt? But I don't know. What do you think about that as a theme inside of this? We've got the Joker, we've got Harvey Dent, we've got Batman, we've got Gordon, if you prefer, sort of all circling each other as sort of dark mirrors moving around on the moral scale. Is that something you like about this movie?

[Mina Kais]

Yeah, I mean, the moral ambiguity is very present right in this one. And Joker's the character who presses on it constantly, putting together these elaborate puzzles and logic problems for them to not only challenge Batman, but also to challenge how he regards himself. Right. And I think the Rachel death scene, you know, was one where we'll talk about her in that scene and Nolan killing another lady. But get an outfit. The idea that Batman in that moment makes the selfish choice. And I thought, okay, this is like. And doing it in the middle of the movie, I thought was a really smart writing decision. And I think, you know, Batman Begins is very much about, like, Batman, you know, confronting his past and all this. But that was the moment where I felt like, oh, he's really playing with the idea of Batman struggling with self conception is what you're asking. And, like, also, how does he fit into the scheme of things? And it sets forth sort of, I think, the second half of the movie where he wants to not be entrusted with so much. And I think it's a good decision.

[Joanna Robinson]

What do you think, Mel?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I mean, I think that this is something that Nolan is obsessed with. We've loved to track this across the films. I'd say that this is like, probably the one that most people would point to as like the poster film for exploring this. It's kind of like an interesting Nolan template in another way, where I Think that, like, there is a he set. When we talk about stories, right? Often the thing that people will say is show, don't tell, right? And there's a lot of telling in this movie. The characters repeatedly, a huge. Actually, like a cornerstone and buttress of the script is all of the characters. Bruce Gordon, Alfred, the Joker, Harvey. Talking about. They say the Dark Knight out loud. We hear White Knight a lot as a term. Bruce is looking in one direction and seeing the Joker and saying, that is the there but for the grace outcome. Cause in some ways, right? And this is why they're interesting as dark mirrors in general. It's like two characters who have decided, I am going to be the arbiter of how this city is run and what people's lives are like, but I'll do it in the way that I think is best, right? So there's the Dyer case. Then you look at Harvey, another character who is doing the same thing, right? Saying, like, I will be the one to fix this. But he is doing it in a way that Bruce can't. Right inside of structure and systems and process. Okay, well, there's something there that people can put their faith in. People deserve to have their faith rewarded. It's like one of the hammer notes at the end of the movie. You have Alfred throughout the movie saying to Bruce, well, what did you think was gonna happen when you did these things, right? The big Gordon speech at the end. So I think there's a version of this movie that is just frankly, less well made where that is like, we get it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, really actually derided. But because it is so undeniably riveting to watch the Joker and Batman sit three inches from each other's faces in the interrogation room and say these things out loud. You're like, what a fucking privilege to get to watch these characters actually work through their bullshit, right? So I think it's just like, really kind of ballsy to make the movie this way. And it is incredibly rewarding because it's done well. So I think that'll. That that theme will come up probably in many of the categories today because it is just such a central part of the story.

[Joanna Robinson]

Something I love. I love you. Highlighting this idea of Batman making the selfish choice, this idea that Bruce's motivation for the first half of the movie is, I need to put Harvey Dent in this role so that I can retire, so that I can get the girl. Like, that's what I want. That's my motivation. I believe in Harvey Dent, but more than that, I believe if Harvey Dent is here. I don't have to be. And I can be with Rachel. And for that reality to disappear, for him to say, okay, the city needs me to. I can't be Bruce. The city needs me to be Batman in this moment. And then the city needs me to be Batman the villain. Not just Batman the hero, but Batman the villain. So that we can preserve the dream of Harvey, Denton, Amber for the good of the city. And again, that's just this constant sort of like, who am I? Am I Bruce? Am I Batman? Am I hero? Am I a villain? All of that constantly rolling and changing in every scene of this movie.

[Mina Kais]

He constantly has to make choices in this film. And I think this is a credit to the script and just how good the writing is. The choices feel very believable and fraught in a way in other movies they would not like. Also the choice to surveil the city, which as many people have pointed out is sort of a commentary like post 911 surveillance day and like, you know, difficult choices we make. But like you, I remember I was thinking about this, rewatching it and when Lucius, you know when and he's confronted about it, it actually is a difficult choice. Right. Like you as the viewer, like, you know what, go ahead and surveil those Gotham eyes. Whatever it takes to stop this terrorist. Oh my God. I'm doing the thing that we did in post 9 11America. But like it is a choice Batman has to make. And all of these individual choices which make him reflect on who he is and his self conception and how he fits into the city are actually difficult. And I think that's what is so key to this movie is it's about hard choices.

[Joanna Robinson]

I actually think that's why the first the Batman Begins and the Dark Knight work better than the Dark Knight Rises. It's not just Bane's fault, and I like Bane more than some, but like it's not just Bane's fault, but also these are Nolan's exploration of power and who gets to decide and sort of like teetering on fascism and all that sort of stuff. Like that is a Bush era reaction. And I just don't think an Obama era Batman movie works as well.

[Mina Kais]

You know, these films feel so 2008. Like themes that it's reckoning with about like the authoritarian state, even its conception of technology. The time is just such a time capsule for me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Iron man for sure dabbles in the same thing. And then the other. This is something that Ciara brought up when he came and did Dunkirk with us that we have been loving to think about, especially as we think about the Odyssey, is this idea of Nolan again and again and again making a story about someone just trying to go home. And that. That is like a pervasive theme. And so I was just thinking about it as it applies to this. And it's like, there's the Batman. There's the Bruce that longs to be Bruce. Can I just go back to a Bruce who knew a Rachel and is just. And that's who I am. I'm the master of Wayne Manor. And can I go. You know, we're literally rebuilding Wayne Manor. Can I go back there and just be Master Bruce and Rachel's my girlfriend and everything's fine? And then there's also the idea of can I return Gotham to something that resembles a functioning city, not a lawless city? Like, so it's not like, can I physically go home? It's like, can I be home or can my city be home to me again? Is the best I came up with in terms of how it applies here. Did you have any thoughts on that, Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, it's interesting, just, like, thinking about the Wayne Manor penthouse, Batcave, like, Bat Vault. I think there's something less visually iconic about the landscape of this film compared to the first and the third, actually. But the story and the performances just transcend that. And this idea that Bruce is, like, a little bit out of place, even from the place he didn't feel like he could be comfortable. And, like, he was always like a ghost in his own home. And that's their room and stuff like that. Right. And what will you rebuild and what does it mean to rebuild something? Like, I like that little moment, whereas he's kind of feeling out Harvey, and is this guy not only, like. Like, good enough for Rachel, or am I ready to push him aside for Rachel, but, like, can he be the. The. Can. Can the city trust in him? And, like, you know, that little Barb right before that of, you should, like, know where the borders of your own city are? You know, the palate's like, yeah, it's in Gotham. And it's just so funny to think about. It's a. A subtle, small little way for the movie to remind us of how Bruce has always been. He's like the 1%, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The point. The 1% inside of the 1%, and that he has made the choice to put on this suit every night and go punch bad guys in the face. Right? And so, like, what is his relationship to the City. I think the way that Gotham is. The characters of Gotham are presented in this film, you know, with all of the gangsters and the crime families and like, the caricatures there. Just incredible Eric Roberts performance.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm always at them. I was like, how are you? Didn't your legs, like, shatter when he pushed you off this balcony? How are you, like, standing and walking around the hospital? And it is worth saying there are, like, plenty of little nitpicks like that and things in this movie where you're like, wait, what?

[Mina Kais]

But it just. You don't think Two Face would have gotten an infection with exposed sinew.

[Mallory Rubin]

And walking around the city, how eyeballs work. Can you just have a. Shouldn't the eyeball have just exploded or

[Joanna Robinson]

at least like shriveled with exposure to your eyes?

[Mallory Rubin]

Egon's like exploding cock sausage on a spit.

[Mina Kais]

I can never decide if that's. If it's great or stupid. I'm like. I'm like, this is like, I just so insane.

[Mallory Rubin]

The fingerprint reconstruction, construction on the bullet. It's like, what is this? But because it's about Bruce's money and resources and also a little bit of that, like, germ of detective Batman trying to crack the code, but also the

[Joanna Robinson]

Joker being ahead of every step of the way.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And so to the home question, like, because you have the Joker, you know, burn it all down and agent of chaos and better class of the city deserves a better class of criminal. It's also like, what is the idea of home for everyone else?

[Joanna Robinson]

Right? The city.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

What are they trying to protect or tear down?

[Mina Kais]

I think in the same way you talked about self conception and Batman and that constantly being tested in this, the city of Gotham is constantly also having to make the choices. Culminating, of course, with the pivotal scene. But even the thing where Joker puts the hit out on the Wayne employee, the snitch, and it's like, okay, we're testing the city. Incredible. And ultimately the city finally passing the test is, I think, what allows Batman to make his ultimate choice. And I feel like to your question about coming home, it is. The whole movie is kind of reckoning with is this a place worth saving and is it a home worth going to and preserving? And it's like the only bright spot is it answers that question the affirmative.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I love that. And then it's that real. Save the Shire. Not for me. Right. You know, like, we saved Gotham, but the end of this movie is Bruce on the run, being chased in order to save Gotham, which is just fascinating stuff. I love this movie. Last bit of context I want to add before we go into our superlatives, which is my Jonathan Nolan agenda continues. I've been saying I love Jonathan Nolan and his wife Lisa Joy, and their work on some of, but not all of Westworld. And so identifying what he brings to collaboration with his brother. They did the Prestige, they did the Dark Knight. He worked on Interstellar. There's just like, you know, memento was his idea in the first place. Like, they're like, where is Jonathan Nolan inside of this Chris Nolan legacy? So I loved learning that arguably the most famous line from this movie, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. A line so famous that I think some people think it pre existed.

[Mallory Rubin]

The Dark Knight.

[Mina Kais]

There's a few things in there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Are we sure this is the first one?

[Mina Kais]

Oh, my God, it was.

[Joanna Robinson]

Jonathan Nolan wrote it. Chris Nolan has said in an inter. I'm jealous that my brother wrote this line. He wrote it. Here's a quote from the Hollywood Reporter. We were looking for something that would distill the tragedy of Harvey Dent, but that would also apply to Batman. The richness of Batman is the way in which this principled, almost boy scout like figure is wrapped up in this kind of ghoulish appearance and his willingness to embrace the darkness. So I was looking at Greek tragic figures. The first part of that line, you either die a hero, and that part's important because not everybody wants to be a hero. It's engaging in heroics that puts you in this space where you have this binary outcome. The idea is there are people who put themselves on the line and so often that wager turns on them. It's also that old idea of absolute power corrupting absolutely. It felt uniquely resonant to the tragedy of Harvey Dent and the tragedy of Batman. The fact that it resonates with people beyond the film is gratifying. I was proud of that line. Chris Nolan has said in interviews when his brother pitched him that line, he was like, I don't know what this means. I don't know. What are you talking about? So I'm glad that it made it in and I'm glad that it is a real sort of like, gilding burnishing of Jonathan Nolan's legacy, which is important to me personally.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting Greek tragic figures and heroes. Will that remain on their minds?

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you know that Chris Nolan was in contention to direct Troy? I didn't know. Like, you know, I saw this in the Time profile. Yeah. So he's been like, Trying to do the Trojan War for a very long time. Okay. Okay. Anything else we want to talk about in a big picture way before we get to our superlatives? No.

[Mina Kais]

Let's get to it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's do it.

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[Joanna Robinson]

All right, so as we've done in the past, every category has a Nolan quote from one movie or another associated with it. So the first one and I'm gonna try to do a better version of this cause I just watched it. Why so serious? Ah, he like really hits that last s very hard.

[Mina Kais]

Pretty good.

[Joanna Robinson]

Funniest line or moment. Mina.

[Mina Kais]

There's a few joker moments that come to us unsurprisingly. Right. I have two. So sorry. Cheating.

[Joanna Robinson]

No, no.

[Mina Kais]

I'm gonna do this a bunch of times. Of course, smuggles are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Smuggles are.

[Mina Kais]

This experience, this scene I'm going to reference constantly because I for many categories. When he pulls up to the 1% party, the fundraiser, and he sees Maggie Gyllenhaal's character, Rachel, and he takes the knife and does it and fixes his hair.

[Mallory Rubin]

I lose it every time. It's such a.

[Mina Kais]

Just a great little moment. And then there's another line reading he does. I I. It's the way he, like, interprets some of these lines and is so fantastic. It's when he meets with Gamble for the first. So he shows up for his first negotiation with the mobsters and he goes, do you think you could steal from us and just walk away? And he's like, yeah. It just cracks me up every time. There's these little, like, moments that aren't even like, the signature quotes, but that one cracks me up every time.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's really good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great picks. That's like a really. To your point from earlier about how rewarding it is to revisit the performance. Those little moments, like in that same party. And I didn't have this as one of my picks, but I'm just thinking of it with you talking about the. The knife, hairbrush, like the grabbing of the champagne flute and then tossing out the champagne before he takes the sip. Stuff like that. Those touches are so great. I am going with Scarecrow briefly appearing in the parking garage.

[Joanna Robinson]

Is that your pick you can't take. You know that Scarecrow is my. Is my beat.

[Mina Kais]

I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, it's.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

You could do it. I don't need help. Not. My diagnosis is just incredible.

[Joanna Robinson]

One of my.

[Mallory Rubin]

From Crane. That's just the best. I. Let's see. Since we both have that to throw another contender out, I think that the way when Joker says in the gangster backroom meeting, you know, I'll find him and we'll make him a squeal about Lao. I know the squealers when I see them. And then Lau is like on this little Zoom.

[Mina Kais]

Proto Zoom.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, exactly. He's on his airplane. He's got, like, beaming a perfect transmission on this tiny, shitty old tv. And then he just sort of like, reaches forward to turn on tv. He's like. He's. That's just an incredible moment. Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

I would also add when Bruce is getting patched up and he says it was a big dog in terms of what attacked him. And then Alfred saying, what's Russian for apply your own bloody suntan lotion when he's on the yacht with the. The ballet. Really good stuff. But yeah, my guy, Jonathan Crane. Scarecrow always delivers. Never a bad moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's so great that he manages to make it into every film in the trilogy in just some capacity.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling. Sigis set piece. What do you have, Mina?

[Mina Kais]

I don't know if this is gonna be a popular pick. The opening.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's my pickup.

[Mina Kais]

Okay. All right. All right. So it's freaking awesome. And it accomplishes so many things with such efficiency. Introducing the Joker as a character in the most magical way. The mu. Well, talk to the music later. Introducing the moral questions immediately that he poses. What makes him so unique. And the other thing, I would say that reason I like it better than some of the other. More maybe the car chase and whatnot. It's very easy to follow what's going on. And as much as I love some of the other set pieces and action sequences in this film, I do think this is my mildest criticism of the Dark Knight. They suffer a little bit from being a little bit convoluted. Whereas this one, from when they start, when you realize what's going on and they. The robbers start knocking each other off, it's so. It's like, so well orchestrated and choreographed and just so perfectly done.

[Joanna Robinson]

The part where when before he has unmasked himself, Ledger's talking to the one guy before the bus crashes through, and he just starts to, like, casually step to the side because he knows right where the bus is gonna come. So good.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's my pick, too. And I will say we have, like, a stunt category coming later. If we didn't have that, that I would have picked the car chase here. But knowing that because of the flipping of the 18 wheeler, that's going to

[Mina Kais]

qualify for stunt, it's amazing.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a chance to talk about that there. Because if people are like, how could you guys not be picking the car chase? We'll talk about it in another category. Maybe you have it here. But I think also, like, I really agree with everything you said. The. The opening is just kind of, like, mesmerizing, and it's just such a wonderful assurance that you're in for something special right from the jump. The fact that the. The Joker that we know right away that he's got skin in the game, like he's out in the field, right? That level of commitment and involvement, you know, what a worthy foe he is for Bruce in a way that feels so important not only for the history of the. Of the characters, but this particular, like, version and. And rendering of it and just the thrill of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, the.

[Mallory Rubin]

The bus moment is such a good early snapshot of how much he likes it, you know, no, no, no. I killed the bus trailer. Bus driver. What bus driver? Like, he couldn't wait to say, no, no, no, I killed a bus driver. It's just so good. And like, that also just the undeniable aspect of how far ahead he is. The precision of being able to pull the bus right into the line.

[Mina Kais]

Right. The intelligence is conveyed, and you're like, oh, this is what we're dealing with.

[Mallory Rubin]

They're not gonna be able to get this guy insane.

[Mina Kais]

And also a genius. And you find that out. It is actually a show, which I actually think is very characteristic of the Joker character in general. You talked about all the telling this movie. They don't tell with the Joker. It's mostly showing. In fact, he doesn't get a backstory. We'll talk about that. You know, a normal backstory. It's all just like. You learn so much about the character so quickly in, like, five minutes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, also to the back, the backstory point, he lies all the time. So when he says. He emphatically says, I don't have a plan. Like, I'm not a person who plans. And we're like, I'm Sorry, we've seen 90 different meticulous plans of yours that, like, require you to understand everyone's psychology and exactly how everyone is positioned at all times. It's amazing. I picked the sort of, like, Hong Kong bass jump sequence because this is. And in that lengthy timepiece about the Odyssey they talked about, they shot this all on IMAX film. All of the lengths that they went to to make that work, because it is incredibly cumbersome. But this is just such an early dabbling for Nolan in im. So the truck flip, which we will talk about later, and then this sequence where we're, like, circling around the building and there's, like, Batman on the outside of the building. And then later, the BASE jump. That was like an imax, Like a really early IMAX moment for Christopher Nolan. And it's just sort of like the truck thing, I think, is even more impressive. But you just really feel something different about how drawn into the world you are. And for Batman to do this, incredibly. He's just a guy, just a really, really rich gu in a weird suit, but, like, he's just a man on the outside of this massive building. It's, like, real, like, Burj Khalifa and Mission Impossible energy. And you're just sort of, like, drawn in because the frame is so huge. And it's just like. I don't know, I think about that moment all the time. And then also, I couldn't figure out if, you know, this was of the era when a lot of these blockbusters were intentionally shooting sequences in China in order to appeal to. Directly to the Chinese box office. It did not open initially in China, but they did eventually get like 50 million as part of their road to B billion dollars from the Chinese box office. But it's such an interesting era in Hollywood where you just see various things awkwardly shoehorned in this feels sort of seamlessly blended. But there are other movies of this era where you're just sort of like, oh, this is here. Just so you can open this in China. That's interesting. Next category. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Who is the real villain of this movie if it's not the Joker? But, like, do you have another option here?

[Mina Kais]

Human greed was the best thing. I mean, there's so many moments where humans are exposed as their human nature, I guess, is the Joker is playing on that. The entire. He's like, I'm gonna push all these pressure points, whether it's the, you know, the Wayne employee who's gonna. Well, that actually he was gonna snitch on him as well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Mina Kais]

But there's the corrupt cops. And that's a big plot point through line, I think. Also, just not terrorism in and of itself, but also, like, the reactions and overreactions that it inspires is something that he's really playing with in this film, I feel. Yeah. I don't know. And I will talk about this at, like, is it. Are humans proved to be good at the end?

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't know.

[Mina Kais]

Like, we can talk about that, but I feel like it's that. That's the theme that goes throughout the entire movie. It's through line.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's solid one. What do you think, Mallory?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm going with the idea of a symbol because I think this is something. And this is one of the things I love about Nolan as a storyteller. And what he and. And the Nolan brothers are, like, interested in interrogating is like, when something is propped up, how does that often go wrong?

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so it's like the idea of what, you know, what is the idea of being something that others aspire to actually, like, do to you? And what choices does it force you to make? And then what happens when other people try to, like, mimic it, you know, with the copycats. Right. Bruce is like, this isn't like what I meant when I said I wanted to inspire people. Or when somebody else is trying to, like, leverage it or undercut it, or when you look at somebody else who has become a symbol and you're like, that's more powerful. So there's something. You know, there's. So, again, it kind of moves in all directions between the characters, which is part of why the movie works so well. You know, you have, like, the dark knight thinking that the city needs the white knight. Right. You're the symbol of hope. I can never be. And it's like, is that true? Right? Like, is that true? But the. So I think the fact that Bruce has talked himself into that is, like, actually, like, really tragic. And one of the most interesting and I think rewarding parts of watching the movie is like, I will speak for myself. When I watch the choice he makes at the end, which, of course, there's, like, nobility in that sacrifice. I'm like, this was not the right decision, and you didn't need to do this, and you shouldn't have done this. You know, and the fact that that is born out of this belief that society, society fueled by greed, as you're noting, and perception and ambition can only function if we have one thing to strive for is, I think, like, really dangerous and fraught.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think, you know, there's a. There's line later where the Joker says, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.

[Mina Kais]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, it's such a good line. And there's so many aspects of this film that feel prescient. A lot of Nolan's work feels prescient. And that idea of the cult of personality in the era that we live in, and this idea of the one person, and it is there in the Bush era, it's there in the Obama era, but it is there more than ever in the Trump era. And that is just. I think that's a really astute point. I have a dumb answer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Tell me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ready?

[Mina Kais]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Medical debt. Ramirez.

[Mina Kais]

That's true. It's not really greed. Her corruption is not quite greed. It is.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's medical debt.

[Mina Kais]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's go to the pit system, right?

[Mina Kais]

The legal system, the medical system. They're not the good guys in these movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love this because I actually think these are three very, like, specific picks, but they're all connected, which is, of course, like, part of the thesis of the film, you know, and, like. And, like, I. You know, there is, of course, something like, heartening about having someone or something to aspire to, but the fact that, like, the Joker can say While. Or Maroni can say, you are suffering and you need something. So I will.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say it like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't. I don't have, like a cool grass

[Mina Kais]

like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

And then. And the Joker can say, like, I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down. It wasn't hard, right? Like, that's like the chilling aspect of it. How. Ready. It's the tipping point.

[Joanna Robinson]

But what I love about Harvey Dunn is that it was already inside of him. I know it was already there in that alley scene, that ambulance. Yeah. Like, it was already there, and it was just sort of like. But no one can be a white knight and no one can be a single. So, like, why would you ever try to make someone right? All right. Are you watching closely? Most exquisitely gorgeous shot.

[Mina Kais]

You mentioned the. I don't even know what to call it. The swooping.

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Mina Kais]

The Hong Kong. The bad flying scene or whatever. I actually love the scene. The shot of the Joker walking away from the hospital.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

I love it for two reasons. One is it's during the day, which is just. It's like, whoa.

[Joanna Robinson]

I had that thought during the bank robbery at the beginning. I was like, oh, yeah, this is during the day.

[Mina Kais]

This mfer is so crazy. He will do all this stuff in the light of day. I felt like was kind of a profound character statement because, you know, the movies are so dark and it's dark night and all that. And then just the timing of it when he sort of walks away and he's like, huh. And, you know, it's just like, so masterfully done and strange. And Heath ledge. The visual of him behind him. I just think it's just a gorgeous, gorgeous shot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Another fun fact. Apparently that was like a real. So they blew up an abandoned candy factory. That's what the hospital was. So they really blew up a building. They only had one opportunity to do it. The mechanism accidentally delayed. So that's Heath Ledger improvising.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wow.

[Mina Kais]

Really

[Mallory Rubin]

cool.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

God, the filmography really is connected. Like, this guy makes Oppenheimer and he's like, I'm gonna build a bomb. And it's like. Like, wait. Already blown up.

[Joanna Robinson]

When I was watching this, I was like, I need to find out what building he blew up, because he definitely blew up.

[Mina Kais]

It's just insane. This was shot in 2008 and everything looks so good. Yeah, it does seems like this.

[Mallory Rubin]

It looks like it was filmed yesterday.

[Mina Kais]

Crazy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you have another?

[Mina Kais]

No, that. That was my favorite.

[Mallory Rubin]

I have a joker pick as well. This was one of the Easiest picks for me of the entire Rewatch project. It's the Joker head hanging out of the side of the car in the wind like a dog. Which I think is one of the most iconic shots in like any superhero film film. The way that it. I mean there's something just kind of like visually, you know, arresting about it. It's a great, you know, he's not saying he's not giving one of these incredible line deliveries and. And terrifying us with something that he's actually saying about his like human assessment of human nature. But there's just something like so harrowing about the joy and glee on his face and the way the car is driving.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's like veering all over the road.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Unpredictability that you feel in the motion. And I think that the way that it captures something like really complete and total about a character who is like definitionally unknowable, but you understand everything you need to understand when you just watch that four second stretch is perfect. That's my pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mine comes right around the same time because that's like right after the rip. Rachel, when Batman is standing, and I'm saying Batman, not Bruce. Batman is standing in the rubble, the burning rubble. You know, a perfect superhero pose. Like one knee half bent, cape flapping in the sort of breeze, with the wreckage of his failure behind him and the ashes of his dream that he could be Bruce and Rachel in the future. And he's just sort of like locked back into I'm Batman. Like that's who he is now until he goes to Italy with Anne Hathaway. A dream for all of us, you know, but for now he's locked. He's locked back into the suit and he's no longer a person. He's once again just that symbol. And I love that shot. I can't remember to forget you the scene you think about the most. Mina.

[Mina Kais]

So I alluded to this. Mine is when the Joker shows up at the party. So it's right at coming off of the heel of the old commissioner getting killed. The judge and the stakes are just immediately like, oh my God, this. He's killing them. And then when he pulls up everything. First of all, we talked about this being kind of like a time not time capsule, but like it's about the war on terror and technology in 2008. But it's also like the moment of like occupy and post financial crisis. And I do think that's an important scene also in capturing that dynamic of like class and class warfare and an agent of chaos. Representing the Everyman, that, of course, he would continue in the Dark Knight Rises. But I also think in terms of the characterization of the Joker, you know, I said in the first scene, we learn a lot about him, but this is the scene where it's really concretized for me because he gives his backstory a second time and changes it. And I vividly remember being like, yeah, holy shit. Like, we will never know what this guy's dealing with. And that's such an insane thing to do in a superhero movie, which are, you know, everything. It's always just like, here's this guy, there's the villain. Here's his origin story. For the Joker to immediately be like, yeah, I'm never gonna tell you. I just was like. And I think about that all the time in terms of, like, characterization. And it's a huge part of why Heath Ledger's performance is a big part. But the writing of the character is magnificent.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also think in that very moment, the way that Rachel is just squirming under his grip is just like, you know, it's, like, so tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Very related. Pick. I have the different stories about how he got his scars as, like, a joint pick, because I agree with you. I think there's something about it that is just. It's like the terror of ambiguity, you know, especially in a space where you are so used to information overload and, like.

[Joanna Robinson]

And, like, origin stories as, like, a trove of superhero movies.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Like, and then there's some of it where it's like, because of his mental instability, there's that aspect where you're like, what does he even know to be true about his own life? But then, of course, there's the way that he is deliberately trying to destabilize and unmoor everyone around him. Then there is, of course, the aspect of it that is just, like, fun for him. Right? It's the see the world burn. Like Burma, which is another great. Exactly. So, you know, there's the intrigue of it. Like when you're like, oh, my God. When you hear the different story the second time and you realize that you don't know, it's like, will we learn? You know, and then you build toward. It's just so fucking good and satisfying when he tries it on. On Batman, and he's like, no, but I know how you got these. Yeah, it's such a rewarding. What a great payoff. But I think also, you know, not just the fact that. That he is telling people different things because you wonder how many different Versions of the story. Is he told? Is it like four? Is it like 400? Right. But each of the things that he says is completely believable as his backstory and so deeply upsetting to consider. Like, no matter which version is true, neither of the versions that we heard are true. Potentially. What he says to Gamble is, my father was a drinker and a fiend. The way he says fiend, that's one the of the. Oh, my God. Just, like, unbelievable moments. He turns to me, says, why so serious? I mean, we're getting iconic moments inside of iconic moments. Like a. A Russian nesting. Iconic moment's unbelievable. And then the Rachel moment at the party. Like, you look nervous. Is it the scars? It's just so upsetting and, like, makes your skin crawl. But you're leaning. You're recoiling and leaning in at the same time. You're like, become a seesaw, you know, because you can't wait to hear what he says next. But you're terrified and you don't want to. Just unbelievable. And, you know, the last thing about that is I think those are. This is true in maybe every Joker scene in the movie. I think those two moments with Gamble and Rachel in particular, you can see so clearly on the other performer's face that they recognize in real time they're watching something historic happening.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, there's, like, this apocryphal story about that Maggie Gyllenhaal moment that, you know, a lot of people think. And I think this is just an Internet theory, honestly. But a lot of people think she's trying to make eye contact with Christopher Nolan to be like, can you call cut on this scene? That's what a lot of people think that scene is. I actually just think Megan Gyllenhaal is doing a great job in that scene. But there is a shot, and Michael Caine has talked about that. In that party scene, when he first walks in, you see Alfred right behind him, and he gives this, like, horrified shot. And Michael Caine was like, that was me reacting to Heath Ledger because I hadn't seen him, and it was so scary. So, yeah, was really good. I also, like, eat shit, Commissioner Gordon. I also have a Joker scene. It's the interrogation scene, the Batman and Joker scene. This is probably a basic bitch answer, but in their attempt to remake Heat, this is their diner scene, and they put Joker and Batman face to face at this table. The way the camera is swirling around them, the way the eyelines keep changing, and also the way right before when he's shot in darkness and looks so ghoulish in his makeup. And then the lights come on and Batman's right behind him. Like, that's incredible. But, like, the thoughts that are on display here, the way that the Joker is in complete control of this entire situation despite, you know, being all the ways in which the Joker engages with Batman physically. Because, like, there's no way the Joker could ever win in a fair fight with Bert, you know? And so, like, whether it's the knife and the boot or whatever the case may be, there's always like a trick up his sleeve. But that's that interaction, all of those lines. I think about it all the time. And I think about it especially. We just did Insomnia, which I hadn't seen in a million years. And there's this scene on a ferry between Robin Williams and Al Pacino, which is very similar to this scene. So it's almost like that was Chris Nolan sort of of like his first step. He's got Al Pacino. He's like, I'll do a heat scene. I'll do Pacino. I got the cop and the killer here on the boat, and we'll do it. We'll do heat here. And he's like, I'm gonna do the diner scene with Batman and the Joker, and it's gonna be even better. So just like watching him sort of perfect these ideas until he reaches what is here, which is like absolute movie making magic, is really rewarding. So that's my pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a great one. Apex.

[Joanna Robinson]

Swear to me the movie is rated PG13, which means it could have exactly went F bomb. Where would you put it? Mina, I.

[Mina Kais]

Okay, so when the quote question comes up a category, you know, I mean, it's. This is maybe one of the most quotable movies.

[Mallory Rubin]

Is it the most quotable?

[Mina Kais]

And I actually was. I didn't want to sully any of the iconic because I was like, no, like, the Joker shouldn't use F bomb, actually. Unless. I'm sorry, if you guys have that as a pick. The only place I thought would have been funny and it would have been for humor, is when the Wayne Enterprise employee tries to bribe or extort, pardon me, Lucius Fox, and he says, let me get this straight. You think your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his night beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands, and your plan is to blackmail him And. And the guy's like. And he says, good luck. And I was like, he could have said, good effing luck. And I would have laughed really hard. When you see the employee's face fall. And it's, It's a really good Morgan Freeman moment, who has a few in this movie. So incredible. It's the only one that I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's a great pick.

[Mallory Rubin]

And now Colman Reese has become a part of this podcast, and his decisions in this film.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mr. Reese.

[Mina Kais]

Colman Reese.

[Mallory Rubin]

Deserve interrogation.

[Joanna Robinson]

Reese. Mr. Reese.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a great pick.

[Joanna Robinson]

I, I, I think a theme for us in these picks have been we don't usually take, like, a famous line. It's usually like, some other lines.

[Mallory Rubin]

Paradox bitch.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, Paradox bitch is my. Still my favorite one. What's your.

[Mallory Rubin]

What's your. So I want. I actually, I think I've always heard the line in my mind actually, like, this way and think it's this way and it isn't. It's when Gamble says, enough from the clown. Like, enough from the clown. Yeah, very good.

[Mina Kais]

That would work.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mine's the very beginning with the Batman wannabes when Bruce says, I'm not wearing fucking hockey pads.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right?

[Joanna Robinson]

He doesn't speak English. If he does, it's with an accent thicker than sauerkraut sauce. This was very clear. Most baffling accent in this movie. What's your answer?

[Mina Kais]

Gary Oldman.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, Gary Oldman.

[Mina Kais]

Were you gonna say Batman himself?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Gam. Yeah. Gamma. This is why we bring dogs. My little princes.

[Mallory Rubin]

That Richie Coster, AKA the chin. Wild stuff. Yeah, wild stuff. On the, on the accent. You don't like. You don't like.

[Mina Kais]

I just, I'm like, where?

[Mallory Rubin]

Where?

[Mina Kais]

What are we doing with this?

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't know.

[Mina Kais]

The. It's kind of like every New York neighborhood mixed into one.

[Joanna Robinson]

It does wander.

[Mallory Rubin]

It does wander.

[Mina Kais]

I think he does. I think he's excellent in this film, and it's good casting, but I was like, well, I don't really know.

[Mallory Rubin]

So there's.

[Mina Kais]

There's a few line of rings where you can. He kind of, like, veers off.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're like, am I watching? What am I watching?

[Mallory Rubin]

If only Jackson Lamb is always welcome. Is anybody else gonna talk about Gordon anywhere else? Or should we take a moment right now to ask whether he needed to let his wife and children believe that he was dead? Which is, every time I watch this movie, a shock to me anew.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also really love the moment when the Joker. When the Joker's like, ah, you care the most about your male heir. I see. Like, I'm like, okay, Gordon.

[Mina Kais]

It's one of two, I think, moments where you can criticize the writing in the film. And the other is the actual ending that Batman needs. Like, that. I'm like, you know, the idea that Gotham cares about who specifically killed some cops, and you can't just be like, actually, these, like, millions of henchmen.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who was the one then he had to come up with this, like, elaborate lie. Yeah, let's. Let's. Yeah, yeah. When was the last time a DA had this strong of a grip on the populace?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a great question. Eric Roberts is also doing a lot on the accent front, I will say, but it does work. I also say, and this is not a criticism, but the voice that Heath Ledger creates for the Joker, which is very Tom Waits is. Is like, it's not from anywhere, which is fine, because we don't know where the Joker's from. It's not a critique. It's just, like, a really fun voice choice that he makes here. Obviously. All right. No one cared who I was until I put on the mask. Best use of a Nolan verse, regular. And so the rule for this. Sorry, I mean, I did not make this clear, but, like, it's someone who has been in at least two Nolan

[Mina Kais]

versus at least two.

[Joanna Robinson]

At least two.

[Mina Kais]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

I had the, I think, obvious choice, and then the hipster choice. Well, till Michael Caine is born to play Alfred. Correct. Like, that's just crazy. Like, I mean. I mean, it's not crazy that it's just he is obviously in all his films pretty much. It almost. It's like you can almost imagine Christopher Nolan sitting with him being like, you should be Alfred. Okay. I'm gonna make an entire Batman trilogy. Cause he just, like, he is, to me, the iconic Alfred, definitely. So my hipster choice is. I love when Dave.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do I say that?

[Mina Kais]

Shows up in this film as one of the Joker's minions or whatnot, which is also a role that he was born to play.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's my choice, too. And he's an Oppenheimer, so he counts. This is his film debut, and he's just really, really good in this.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's wild.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know.

[Mina Kais]

Do you think he has been in the most combined Nolan Villeneuve films of any boy when you look at his imd? Cause I looked at it, I was like, I know he's been in other Nolan films. I was like, oh, my God. He quietly has, like, the greatest director resume of any working actors.

[Mallory Rubin]

Also, like, how he's a lot of

[Joanna Robinson]

stuff around superhero franchise, right?

[Mina Kais]

Suicide Squad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, Suicide Squad.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was, like, driving myself crazy trying to pick someone other Than Michael Caine, because we've both picked him previously. And then I decided, fuck cares, Michael.

[Joanna Robinson]

Again.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's do it again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Why do we fall? I didn't realize how many Batman quotes I have here. Why do we fall, sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up. Best stunt. This is where you guys want to talk about the truck.

[Mina Kais]

Let's do it. I think is there. Well, I have one other.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have another choice.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, let's hear the other ones first. Yeah. What else is in the mix here?

[Joanna Robinson]

I just think the bat pod, like,

[Mallory Rubin]

that's part of that Doesn't. Don't we roll that in to. Oh, I think the bat is what

[Joanna Robinson]

seems like the whole chase.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, but the flipping of the truck is the bat pod. They basically do the hoth Atat. Like, you know, run under it and do the wire.

[Joanna Robinson]

To me, I mean. Yes, that. But it's even, like, even before, like, just as it emerges.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is wonderful.

[Joanna Robinson]

And it's like. And the fact that it's like, a real motorcycle stuntman, like, on that. And they built that thing so that it could run is just, like, part of this whole grounding in reality. We got a motorcycle stuntman to do the bat pod. Really cool stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, when he drives up the wall to, like, turn around. Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

He's like, my other.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

All right. So it's is. I picked this because it plays on a very specific phobia I have, which is pencil to the eye. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Yes.

[Mina Kais]

And I just. Anything paper cut to the eye, pencil to the eye. I'm the kind of person somebody.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

What about somebody gets something near my.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm like, nope, metal straws. Avoid them. Oh, my God. Yeah. And can impale yourself.

[Mina Kais]

I looked it up to see how they did it, and I. You guys might notice, like, they actually had the stuntman Jarmin is, like, last name.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sweep the pencil before.

[Mina Kais]

So he was, like, perilously close. It literally, physically. They had him do it a few times where he had to go, bam, sweep. It's like. It's. This is again, the magic of this movie is it's not cj. Like, I'm like, can you imagine being that close to having a pencil in your eye?

[Mallory Rubin]

And.

[Mina Kais]

And he actually was banging his head on the table. I read a couple pieces to the point where he led to. As he so rarely did broke character and was like, are you all right, man? Cause the dude was slamming his concussion on the table. He would sneak the pencil, slam his head on the table.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is.

[Mina Kais]

So you go back and rewatch it. And it's crazy that he swept the pencil now.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't want to rewatch now.

[Mina Kais]

I might cross it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Knowing that when I watch it, knowing Maddie.

[Mina Kais]

My God, stuntmen are amazing. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Just a great joker moment. It's like gonna make this pencil disappear. Then he does some wonderful stuff. Real follow through from the Joker, always. Yeah. I think the. For the flip, because we have the stunt category, we can lean in specifically to like the flipping of the. Of the truck. But I do think it's really just an excuse to talk about the. The car chase as well, which is like another really impressive.

[Joanna Robinson]

I do kind of agree with Mina. There's so many components to that that, like under the, you know, you just like lose track a little bit of.

[Mallory Rubin]

We also have like the, you know, because the. Again, there's. This is where like trying to like

[Joanna Robinson]

hide the ball in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gordo has like, faked his death in a way that is like, even inside of the logic of the movie. Like, nonsensical, like he had to protect his family.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory.

[Mallory Rubin]

But just the getting shot, like the faking getting shot. It's like, wait, if you were like that sure that a bullet was coming at the mayor, like, call the whole thing off, like all of that, but then the letting the wife and kids think he said, did he not get shot at all?

[Joanna Robinson]

All I thought he got shot and it just like wasn't that bad. And then he just like pretended that, but he was.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was the scenario that they opted into. Instead of don't have the parade. It's like, what. You know, that's the kind of stuff you don't really want to like, linger on or think about too much.

[Mina Kais]

But one of our cops is wearing a Joker.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's kind of the reveal that we're building toward. And then you have Nikki Cat, who we just, you know, we obviously just watched an insomnia. Who's the there to, like, basically narrate the sequence. There are definitely a few things that could pull you out of it. But just like, I think the action is really amazing. The blockage that then takes them down to lower fifths. You've got the, oh, we're going to be like turkeys on Thanksgiving. And then they are the. The bazooka, the Bat pod emerging. The way that it feels like we're getting to kind of traverse every inch of Gotham in that sequence. It is so long. But in a way that I, I think, like, really you feel the terrain that they are fighting over as they move through the city. And then the Face off. Like, now there's a Batman. Ooh, you want to play?

[Mina Kais]

Come on.

[Mallory Rubin]

Come on. The way that the bat pod moves under the truck to flip it, the fact that the Joker makes it out of that somehow, but then is, like, ready to.

[Joanna Robinson]

To die.

[Mina Kais]

Hit me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hit me. I can't believe it's gotten this far

[Mina Kais]

without talking about hit me.

[Mallory Rubin]

Chilling. And then, of course, we talk about this a lot in general with, like, action sequences. We talk about this a lot with Star wars duels. Like, they're most memorable. They're at their best when there's a really key character beat in some side of it. This gives us that because Batman does not kill the Joker here, which he just definitely should have. So many times the choice.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I guess I will say watching this on the tail end of our daredevil watch, where I'm just like, matt should just kill Kingpin. I'm just sort of like, batman should definitely just kill the Joker. He would have saved so many lives if he had. I understand he's protecting his own soul and the soul of the city, but I was just like, you know, tarnish yourself in order to save all these lives. Why not? All right. Amateur. Seek the sun, get eaten. Power stays in the shadows. The stealth. MVP of this movie that not enough people talk about. It's a hipster o'. Clock.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's bring it.

[Mina Kais]

I think Lucius Fox is so important to this film. And the scene where Morgan Freeman pushes back on the surveillance state is like a very profound statement of intent and what the film is about. And if he doesn't do that, it's a real problem. They needed his character to do that. I also think he has that great scene with Rhys, which I alluded to. I love. So he's not in this film very much, but I think he makes. All of his hit rate is very high.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I always find it's one of the movie's versions of the characters navigating their own morality, where. I also love Morgan Freeman's Lucious Fox. I picked him years ago. We did a build, build, build the best Batman movie draft. And I. I picked him and.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Bane.

[Mallory Rubin]

And Sean was like, why are you just building a movie we've already seen? And I was like, cause it's an amazing movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's why.

[Mina Kais]

Bane is your real one.

[Mallory Rubin]

But that is a moment where you're like, Cause it is. I agree with you. It's so crucial that he draw that line and make that stand. But there is that part of you that's like your role In Wayne Enterprises before. Before you were kidding out Batman with all of these weapons. Weapons. You were doing like government contracts for like weapons of. It's like start. Right there's like the. What have you been putting out into the world all this time? And this is where you draw the line. But then that idea that everyone has

[Mina Kais]

to have a line.

[Joanna Robinson]

So.

[Mallory Rubin]

Interesting pick. I thought this was a really hard category. This was the hardest time I've had this category because I. In part because there aren't that many aspects of the movie that we haven't all talked about a lot. Like so many parts of it are celebrated. And it also is like it's Ledger and that's that. But. But I thought maybe this was where we could talk about Aaron Eckhart for a minute. Because I think that if 2 face, if Harvey Dent and 2 face, like if the. Just the journey across the film, if that performance next to the most iconic villain performance of all time. I know, doesn't work, I think the movie is. Is not viable. Genuinely not viable. It's like disqualifying for the film. So he's nowhere close to Ledger. Like no one is. But he has to be able to carry enough of the film for it to actually feel like it's on balance. And then when it's supposed to be off kilter, that it is. Otherwise it just doesn't work.

[Mina Kais]

Is this before or after thank youk for Smoking? Trying to remember it was around the same time. Because I love that pic. And I think in some ways Aaron Eckhart has suffered from the Heath Ledger, just this being his movie and the fact that he took over this movie so much because it is a really good performance. And. And I think the casting was fantastic because to make the role work, you have to believe that this guy's a little bit of an asshole. And that's kind of his whole thing. Aaron Eckhart in the Company of Men. The Neil, Abe and thank you for Smoking. It's like, oh, this guy's an asshole. But you learn to like him as a film or not in the company heart, but like in thinking smoking. And I think for this film Harvey Dent had to be a guy who was a bit of an asshole. Extremely cocky, somebody you believed that Bruce would believe in, but also someone you believed would turn at the end. And he does all of those things. It's sneakily. The difficulty level is a lot higher than I think he's given credit for.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, here's my hot take. Uh oh, I have him in the miscast category. Really, I do, because I think I'm thinking a lot about Sebastian Stan, who's gonna be playing Harvey Dent in the upcoming Pattinson Batman movie, Harvey Den Dent. Yes, you are exactly right. This is what we need, is we need someone who looks the all American guy that you can sort of like, believably like him, but there is you. But as soon as he flips to menace, you're like, I get it. I guess I put him there because the miscast category was kind of hard. But we can talk about Maggie Gyllenhaal if we want to, but we can. But I was thinking about Aaron Eckhart and I'm like, Harvey just doesn't pop for me the way that I want him to inside of this movie. And so then I was like. Like, I don't think he was the first choice. So who was the first choice? First choice was Matt Damon. And so thinking about this movie with Matt Damon, who, like, coming off the Departed has that sort of like, he's a guy. You like him. You think about school ties or whatever, you know, like all the times that he's played a villain or what he does in Interstellar, and you're just sort of like, oh, it's really interesting. And it's interesting in this ongoing conversation we've been having about Nolan films and the way in which he. He rewards a Cillian Murphy who shows up to do, like, a bit part, and then he makes him Oppenheimer. Matt Damon shows up to do a bit part in Interstellar. Now he's Odysseus. Matt Damon turned down this role because it was too small. And then he was like, I regretted it, obviously. And so then when Interstellar came around, he's like, sure, I'll do whatever tiny role you want. Because I thought I was too good for Harvey Dent in the Dark Knight. The other people, they were thinking of casting Liev Schreiber, who I think is a really interesting choice.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think he works on the first part of it, which is like, belie, Like Boy Scout, like, poster boy.

[Mina Kais]

I.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, he's like, salty, gritty from the jump.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm obsessed with this 90s movie, walking and talking, where he plays this, like, very sweet guy. And that's the Leah Schreiber I always think about. Josh Lucas of Sweet Home Alabama fame. Ryan Phillippe, who I agree with, like, is too much for me, whatever. And then Mark Ruffalo was a real one. They were looking.

[Mallory Rubin]

That does not make any sense to me.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mark Ruffalo is Interesting, though, because. Because, like, Mark Ruffalo.

[Mallory Rubin]

Calm down.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mark Ruffalo as like a. You like him. I just. I think I would like him so much faster than I would like Aaron Eckhart.

[Mina Kais]

Did you think he was not likable or charismatic enough?

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not that he's. I think he lacks a little bit of charisma, but I think there is that pre existing. I know what an asshole you are, right. I see something that I'm already there with him. Whereas with Mark Ruffalo to that point, I think he had done in the cut, I'm not sure, but, like, he wasn't doing that at all. And so. And I think he's capable of it. And so I think it would have been even more of a devastation to watch a Mark Ruffalo type, like, go that dark than it would be to watch an Aaron Eckhart type.

[Mina Kais]

You know, one of the one thing I do like about Aaron Eckhart also in this film is he just looks like a comic book character. He merely looks like a drawing. Is just so on the nose to have him do that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think the Ruffalo would have been great for the fall. I think he's part of what I love about his performances, and obviously he's given us many different flavors over the years, but he's so deeply emotionally raw and neurotic that, like, I don't think that's Harvey's energy. He's supposed to be so composed, like the guy that can. And this is like, actually a little cheesy when it happens, but the guy who can. Can grab the gun and disarm and flex on the entire courtroom, you know, is like, I don't. I don't see Ruffalo doing that. I mean, who knows?

[Joanna Robinson]

You know, you get a.

[Mallory Rubin]

You get a performance that's amazing and you change your mind, but that would. That's hard for me to envision.

[Joanna Robinson]

To me, I do think Damon would have been.

[Mina Kais]

And when you said that, I was

[Mallory Rubin]

like, damon's really nice.

[Joanna Robinson]

So strong. And if you imagine the trio of Bale and Daemon and Ledger, it's just sort of. That is just insane. I mean, this is. There's no higher, I think, than this movie could soar. Like the Dark Knight could not be more valued, but I think the role of Harvey Dent would have just been even more impactful than it was with Aaron Eckhart. I do like him in general. I was just sort of like Erin Brockovich.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a great. That's a great Eckhart. Performance. Love that one. Long hair. All right.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're waiting on a train. This is my favorite category always. You're waiting on a train A train that day will take you far away. Best dead wife slash woman moment. Inside of this movie, there's only.

[Mina Kais]

There's the best thing about the killing of Rachel Dawes is when it happens. Because I think it creates such a unique structure in the film. Killing her when they do sort of. What is it, like, the three fifths point maybe or something? And I think the fake out is great. And I guess we can kind of merge this with the miscast.

[Mallory Rubin]

You wanna talk about.

[Mina Kais]

Should we talk about Maggie? Is this the right time to talk about Maggie Gyllenhaal?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure, why not? Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

I wanna pose a question to you guys. She's obviously the weak point of the film. The character is not. Is it a casting problem, or do you think it's just. No women would ever have had a chance of making this character interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

So I think she's better than Katie Holmes was.

[Mina Kais]

Low bar.

[Joanna Robinson]

Low bar.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is something we've been discovering in our rewatches is this is like a kid that Nolan really seems to struggle with. Like, we love Anne Hathaway as Catwoman, and we love, like, we love his more dangerous, meaner, villainous women. And when he tries to do an ingenue, like Elliot Page in Inception, we talked about, like, the ingenue roles is something he, like, doesn't really excel at. And so I think Maggie did better than Katie. But Rachel Dawes is still a character that just doesn't work as well as the other characters in this movie. Movie is how I feel.

[Mina Kais]

I think that I, I.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's certainly not perfect. I do think that Maggie Gyllenhaal catches, like, an unfair amount of heat and that, like, it's, like, maligned to an extent that I find bizarre, you know.

[Mina Kais]

Oh. Constantly, like, once a week on the Internet.

[Mallory Rubin]

It.

[Mina Kais]

There's like, a trending meme that's like, Batman was ready to burn it all down for her. She's not hot enough. You know?

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the.

[Mallory Rubin]

There's, like, a lot of that that's kind of embedded in the conversation around it that I find obviously dispiriting. I think she's in the role and with the material, like, pretty good, actually. And I think that the. That scene that you picked, which I think was really good for the. The winning pick in multiple categories. This was one of them. Twist is one of them. And most devastating moment is one of them. And that I Picked it in most. I'll spoil. I pick it and picked it in Most Devastating Moment. Because it's my. Actually my favorite sequence in the movie. I think it's like a.

[Joanna Robinson]

The.

[Mina Kais]

The. The.

[Mallory Rubin]

The location flip and her re.

[Joanna Robinson]

Her realization that they're not coming for her.

[Mallory Rubin]

The phone call, them talking to each other. Bruce, of course, like, picking for the reasons you guys outlined earlier, picking to go to Rachel. And then everybody realizing when Batman walks in and he sees Harvey, not Rachel, Rachel has just said, and I, like, I choose you. Like, let's do it. Let's. Let's get married. And then, you know, I say yes. Yes. My answer's yes. And then he screams no. And you realize all at once what's happening. And then the explosion and the way that, like, the fire just kind of engulfs the screen. It's unbelievably harrowing. So I picked it in Most Devastating Moments. A great pick here. I think she's, like, really fucking good in that scene. So that kind of elevates the overall impact of the role to me. Like, I think just the way the voice, like, he's coming for you, Rachel. It's like, but I don't want him to. I just hit so hard. Well.

[Joanna Robinson]

And she's just, like, so confident. Like, of course he's coming for me. But, like, let me comfort you in this moment. Yeah. And then she realizes, oh, he's not coming for her. It wasn't her. She wasn't chosen in the end. She doesn't know why yet.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Well, she never will.

[Mallory Rubin]

She never will.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I think what's tough about Rachel in this film specifically is she's, like, thrown out of a window and then blown up. Like, in terms of damseling a woman inside of a comic book movie, this is like, throwing off a roof is like a real classic move.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a real groan moment, I think, when. When, like, Harvey shows up late, she's like, where, you know, where were you? And he's like, what? And, you know, he's joking, but, like, you know, were. You were gonna have to step up. And she's like, I'm ready. I know it all. I did my prep. It's like, okay, great. You put a line in the movie where the woman's like, I'm getting my.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah, right. I think that was what I really struggle with. So the characterization, like, I'm like, who is this woman? Like, what is like, the scene where they jump out of the building? And she's like, let's never do that. Again, it's supposed to be, like a laugh line. I'm like, okay, so we're supposed to be. This one is, like, fell off a building. And she's, like, weirdly cocky and confident in some moments, but then she's like kind of a. Not a shrinking violet, but she's not like that. I just never felt like I really understood the point of the character.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also think, for me, in terms of dead wife moment, it's Alfred burning her, silencing Rachel in death.

[Mallory Rubin]

I picked the letter as well.

[Joanna Robinson]

You burned her letter? And I was just like, I get it. You're protecting Bruce, but this is the last thing she said. And you're like, nobody needs to know that.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's my pick as well.

[Mina Kais]

Is it also, like, as a friend, maybe Bruce would be more likely to move on if he did.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think he would benefit from having read. I believe that he would benefit from having read the letters.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, that sucks. That just sucks. All right. They won't fear it until they understand it, and they won't understand it until they've used it. Clearest quote. Great man moment. This is something that Nolan likes to explore in his films. Mina, what's your answer here?

[Mina Kais]

The ending with Batman choosing to be sort of like a Christlike figure for the city. And, well, he's choosing to be the villain, but he's also choosing to kind of, like, eat the sins of Gotham, right? And, like, ultimately, because it's the only way to keep the Joker from winning by what he did to Harvey Denton, there's, like, a few moments throughout the film where Batman makes those choices, but I think probably that last one is the most, like, he is the man moment of the entire movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Movie, yeah. It's a great pick. I. Because we've talked so much about how, like, Bruce is talking about. Because, you know, you certainly could do just the Harvey White Knight idea again here for sure. I think that because Bruce is so obsessed with what Harvey represents, the moments then, where Bruce and Alfred in the movie are talking about what Batman represents or the. What I wanted to talk about here in Great Man. Because it's like, wait, if you're. If you're cons, if you're putting so much emphasis on another symbol, what is your symbol supposed to be? Right? So, like, you have this moment early in the film. Alfred has found Bruce down in the bat vault, and he's stitching himself up poorly, right? We get to see all the bruises and all the scars. He's a big dog. All right, hold up against the cat. That does make me chuckle, actually, the cat reference. Know your limits, Master Wayne. Batman has no limits. Well, you do, sir. And then you build toward the middle of the film where Bruce has decided he is going to turn him himself in to the Joker, right before, obviously, Dent says, you know, I'm. That whole stretch. And he's. They're cleaning out the. They want to get rid of everything, burn everything that could, like, in any way trace back to Lucius or Rachel. People are dying, Alfred. What would you have me do? Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. This builds toward your pick. He can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else else can. And then Alfred and Rachel are talking after Harvey has turned himself in. She's like, wasn't Bruce supposed to do this? And Alfred says, perhaps. Both Bruce and Mr. Dent believe that Batman stands for something more important than the whims of a terrorist, even if everyone hates him for it. That's the sacrifice he's making. He's not being a hero. He's being something more. So, like, to say Batman, one of our great heroes, he's being something more is, to me, ultimate. No, Nolan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Greatmanship.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's good.

[Joanna Robinson]

I really don't have anything beyond the, like, White Knight, Harvey Dunn stuff. And this idea of, like. I really like the point you make, Mallory, about, like, the dangers of those symbols. But, like, this is something that Nolan seems to actually, like, buy into to a certain degree that there is, like, you know, what does Oppenheimer represent? Like, what do the. You know, what did Thomas Wayne represent? We talked about this a lot. Batman Begins. Like, what do these great men, these names, these innovators, these symbols mean? And it's something that. It's fun to watch his movies disagree with that, but watch him try to make that point over and over and over again.

[Mallory Rubin]

And how many of those great men had dead wives?

[Joanna Robinson]

All of them. It's not great women, okay? It's great men. All of them. Did we already do everything we wanted to do in the miscast category?

[Mallory Rubin]

I had no other nominees for them.

[Mina Kais]

I couldn't think of anyone crazy how good the casting is in this role. Even the tiniest roles. I was trying to be like, maybe, like, I'm sure pretty employee number 49.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know. I was like 60 deep on IMDb trying to figure out a pick for this.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not even guy with cell phone in the stomach. He did a great job.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's awesome.

[Mina Kais]

It's crazy that. That we haven't even talked about, like, the Joker break out of jail scene, which. That's another moment, too. Talk about things that have aged well in terms of, like, the cinematography and the action sequences. Like, just like that moment where body disgusting. Like, I don't think I'd just seen that in, like, a superhero. It's one of the most grotesque things you'll see in this type of movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. It's also. It's interesting, too, because, like, often I think sometimes films can have really great action sequences and set pieces, but they don't stitch together into, like, a fully realized portrait. And we had talked about a lot of the moments around that. Right. Like, we talked about the car chase. We talk about Joker. Yeah. Baiting Batman. He was Gordon, we'll say. Like, he wanted to become. He wanted us to bring him. That gives us the interrogation scene, which leads to the breakout. So there it's all building.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's two and a half hours. Sometimes it does feel like two and a half hours, but also it just doesn't ever feel out of control in a way. This is.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, that's how people describe our podcast. They're like, it is two and a half hours. Sometimes it feels like two and a half hours.

[Mina Kais]

But maybe this is a bad take. I think this is. I wouldn't say the tightest movie, but. But one of the very few Christy Roland movies where I did not feel like this was too long.

[Mallory Rubin]

And. No, I don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I don't. I'm just not saying, like, you. You end the movie, you're like, wow, I didn't know that was two and a half hours. I always feel like.

[Mallory Rubin]

I know it's two and a half

[Joanna Robinson]

hours, but I didn't mind the time.

[Mina Kais]

I recently rewatched Interstellar Hoo, Boy.

[Mallory Rubin]

You feel those three hours.

[Joanna Robinson]

A long one. All right. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled. Most satisfying twist.

[Mina Kais]

There's so many.

[Joanna Robinson]

There are so many. This is the Joker's favorite move. He's like, what do you expect?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm gonna do the other thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

So.

[Mina Kais]

Okay, I want you to tell me whether you think this is correct or if it's actually cringe when the prisoner throws out the controller.

[Mallory Rubin]

So which is.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it is both.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's both. It's both cringe.

[Mina Kais]

And it's like, what better than this? And so there's parts of me that's like, oh, and having the prisoner do it. And it's like this big, tough tattoo. And, like, you know, it's a little bit like, people are good, you know, if you just let them. But I, I, I. It's satisfying because in the moment, I was legitimately surprised when it happened. Yes. Like, it's, they set it up really well. And it is the only. It's a twist that the Joker himself. Exactly. Is outfoxed by.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, that's true.

[Mina Kais]

I think that's why it's in his back, like when he. It's the only moment in the entire film when the Joker's like, off his game is when Batman realism and Batman's

[Joanna Robinson]

like, we're better than you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, yeah. Did you think everyone was as ugly as you? Like? Yeah, that's my picture. All alone. All alone is so brutal. I mean, I think just purely in terms of, like, twist from a story beat. It's what we already talked about. It's the realizing that Joker gave the opposite addresses for Rachel and Harvey. That's like Gordon smacking children.

[Joanna Robinson]

Believe he was.

[Mallory Rubin]

I wrote not the pick colon. Why did Gordon need his family to think he was dead? Question mark, exclamation point, all in caps. So I think it is the Rachel Harvey address swap. But I ended up because I knew we would talk about that elsewhere. I think it also builds that moment and connects to the interrogation scene, which is like, as we've all said, just so memorable and impactful. Like the Joker says to Batman in that sequence, see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of, of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve. That's that moment. And so like, then when he gets

[Joanna Robinson]

on you tonight, he's like, be part

[Mallory Rubin]

of a social experiment.

[Joanna Robinson]

People are good.

[Mina Kais]

But, but, but it's interesting, right, because he kind of says that and then he immediately flips it with Harvey. So I, I, that is my one case for the. It's actually not that cringe. They would be cringe if the movie ended with right there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Mina Kais]

And it was like, actually, humanity won, but it's like, no, actually, we, we actually. The Joker did succeed to some extent,

[Mallory Rubin]

which is the vote, like the vote for the regular citizens. They vote to blow up the other ship, but then they don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's because they're not as good as the prisoners are. Who are better than them.

[Mallory Rubin]

They haven't killed us either.

[Mina Kais]

Because, because none of the regular People will actually do it. They do it as a collective vote. And no one will individually, even the hot.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, well, fine. No one wants to get their hands. I'll do it even. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Here's a follow up question I have. You know, the. The argument they make on the non prisoner fairy is like, those. Those people made their choices. They're like those men. And then I was like, yeah, it is all men. Where are the female prisoners?

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, they're all dead.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because no women are alive.

[Joanna Robinson]

Men killed their wives. Every single one of those men killed their wives.

[Mallory Rubin]

Probably there's a gray man, and that's

[Joanna Robinson]

where we draw the line.

[Mallory Rubin]

Wild stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also. This is a little one. But just because the joker, like, thinks of everything, the way that he dresses up the hostage as the clowns and tapes the guns to their hand. I'm like, how did you have time to do every, like, all of this?

[Mina Kais]

That was like a new idea. The most insane show I've ever watched. Money heist. They basically just stole that in season one as a concept. And I was like, where have I seen that before? And then when I was watching this. Oh, the idea of like pretending the hostages are. That's. It was insane. New idea.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me. Nolan's not known for his sexual content, but let's go ahead and try to excavate the horniest moment of this film

[Mina Kais]

when the rich people are doing it and Bruce's are sort of halfway there

[Mallory Rubin]

buttoning up after talking on the safe room.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank God.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he's like, nope. Closes. That is a great one.

[Joanna Robinson]

So it's not you envisioning Michael Caine slicking the bodies of all of those ballet dancers.

[Mallory Rubin]

Ballet boat orgy as alibi is historic. It's really good.

[Mina Kais]

It's a great. It would have been a comedic moment too, when they show up. The entire ballet is a great show.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Rachel's like Maggie Gyllenhaal's. Rachel's face just being like, oh, fucking course.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay.

[Joanna Robinson]

And ideas like a virus. Resilient. Highly contagious. The line that hits hardest 20 years later.

[Mallory Rubin]

Holy shit, guys, this is a crowded field.

[Joanna Robinson]

Just keep scrolling.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, they're all so good.

[Mina Kais]

I mean, the Harvey Dent line, the villain line is probably the one that is the best encapsulation of, like, the film and the philosophy of it. And it's been used so many times.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do think that's the winner and kind of has to be. But I think there are some men

[Joanna Robinson]

Just want to watch the world burn.

[Mina Kais]

Some men just want to watch the world. That is second place. I think smaller ones I had, I actually had. I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curves. I just like that. Also, I thought was a great statement. This is not going to make anyone's list, but I love this one. So maybe it hit hard for me personally. Maybe because it influenced my. The way I think about my. My work. When Maroney says, if it's so simple, why haven't you done it already? And Joker says, if you're good at something, never do it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Love it. Love this energy. That's a great one.

[Joanna Robinson]

How do you pay me?

[Mallory Rubin]

I like. I like. There are a lot of great Joker ones I like. You see, in their last moments, people show you who they really are. That's a great one. Obviously. Why so serious? We have, you know, have to. To mention this town deserves a better class of criminal. I believe. What doesn't kill kill you simply makes you strange.

[Mina Kais]

That's the beginning, too, right?

[Joanna Robinson]

That's his reveal. Like, incredible.

[Mallory Rubin]

All right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Most. Yeah. You think darkness is your ally. You merely adopt the dark.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was born molded by it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Most devastating moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, maybe you should have been in Dark Knight Rises. Something to think about. I already said my pick here is the. The Harvey. The Harvey. Rachel's death.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the.

[Mallory Rubin]

The. That conversation with Harvey and Rachel and just the phone call and him falling, his face melting off. Rachel. Rachel. This is so sad.

[Joanna Robinson]

The way that he's just, like, just grinding his face into the accelerant, and he's just sort of, like, spluttering it out, and I was just sort of like. I was like, what is. And then I realized, like, they made him fall so that, like, one shoulder was twisted behind him because, like, otherwise, I'm like, how did you get your face, like, so into all of the gasoline there? What's your.

[Mina Kais]

So I think that I didn't. I wasn't devastated by that because I didn't care about Rachel Dawes, and I never felt like Batman really did either. Or if they had chemistry. It was not displayed to me on here's the screen.

[Joanna Robinson]

A question I was asking myself is, like, who has Christian Bale had chemistry with? And it's Anne Hathaway as Catwoman for sure. But actually, it wasn't, like, a very long list for me.

[Mina Kais]

Let me tell you about a little film called Newsies.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, he does.

[Mina Kais]

Sexual awakening for some.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have Newsies memorized, of course, but Sarah, who's a love Interest in newsies. He has no chemistry with her.

[Mallory Rubin]

He has chemistry with me. He has chemistry with watching it on tv.

[Joanna Robinson]

I like chemistry with Davy sees that day who's like, you know, the brain that he joins forces with. I can see that. But Sarah, in that movie, his love interest is the most useless character. Totally fair in all of new season.

[Mina Kais]

Totally fair and totally fair. Question about Christian Bale and I think his lack of chemistry with many actresses, I don't think anyone. Again, it's not Maggie Gyllenhaal's fault. Like she's just not written as a character who I. They never make you really care for her. And I don't think it's her fault.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stranger than fiction. Maggie Gyllenhaal is like one of my favorite.

[Mina Kais]

Like I love Maggie Gyllenhaal secretary. She's amazing. She's an amazing actress. I actually did come to care about Harvey Dent and it's such a strange, toxic mix of feelings when the face reveal, the two face reveal where you're like, this is disgusting. Also, how is he alive? No person would be alive without their face exposed. But I was like, really sad because it is. You're like, oh, this is it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Despite. Yeah. Despite me not being able to get Matt Damon out of my head. I do think I co signed that scene just because there's a version of that that it's so cheesy the way that his head is turned away, but he really plays it in a way that I'm just sort of like, I believe this guy is just like defeated and collapsed and his head is just sort of like down on the pillow this way, you know, because like, I don't know, rewatching it, knowing the reveal is coming, you're like, we get it. You're hiding the half of your face. But he does a really good job in the theater.

[Mina Kais]

It was a.

[Mallory Rubin]

And even though they had done the thing earlier in the film, like what did they call me down in mcu? You know, but yeah, it's. I remember being really grossed out seeing it for the first time and like alluded to this earlier, but the whiskey shot like pouring out of the gaping cheek hole and stuff. And then you know, again, like we talked about it doesn't makes sense really that his eyeball is intact. He's wearing his like soot covered suit that like the fabric didn't burn, but his face melted off. Like none of that matters, you know. How did he get it?

[Mina Kais]

How did they keep it for him

[Mallory Rubin]

at the hospital in case he and the Coin.

[Mina Kais]

The coin is obviously really great too.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, you know, the, the whole, the. The. The double sided coin and the make. I was really imagining the other side is different.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was imagining Aaron Eckhart doing a lot of practicing of flipping coins because he like crushes it every time. I'm just sort of like. I mean, you could do multiple takes, but I'm just like imag being like, I gotta get really good at this one thing. All right. Can you hear the music, Robert? Most unforgettable Zimmerism. Mina.

[Mina Kais]

So this isn't really a standout Zimmer, like, compared to some of Nolan's other movies. For me personally, soundtrack. I do think upon rewatching because I was kind of. Again, I go to the opening scene when they introduce the Joker, I guess you would call it a theme. And it's those two notes and it's so menacing. And then they return to it throughout the. And it establishes, I think very early on a sonic identity for the character that's consistent.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's called why so Serious? That's my answer too. And it's, yeah, sliding, dissonant two notes up the string of the cello. Zimmer said a string that keeps on stretching but never breaks. And inside that same. And actually it reminds me a lot of the Dunkirk score, which I think is like better. But it reminds me a lot of that, like, building but never resolving sort of sound. It almost sounds like a crashing plane when you listen to it. And then also as part of that whole piece. Cause then the violins come in and stuff like that. He, I guess, used razor blades on piano strings to create some of the noise. And I'm just sort of like Simmer's always just sort of like what weirdo is doing the most. Yeah, exactly.

[Mina Kais]

I love that.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really am always struck by. During that same fairy countdown sequence that we've talked about when Joker's and here we go and is waiting for them to blow each other up. And there's this like kind of like shrieking fever pitch of the score that then doesn't fully come to fruition because his plan for once has not worked. And then it goes into the kind of like more heroic operatic surge. I think that the other one that I think a moment where the score feels more centered than the story in a way that's like really notable is when Lucius is arriving in Hong Kong.

[Mina Kais]

That's just.

[Mallory Rubin]

The music is like gorgeous in that stretch there. And I'm also kind of like, you know, as multiple characters say, right. Like, wait, this, this could have been a phone call. I'm like, won't they be able to someone compete. You're here. And then he got kidnapped. Won't he realize, like, Bruce Wayne is Batman. But it's nice for a moment to just have, like, the music kind of usher us into this place.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also really like that there was a birdcage. Like, Lao just had, like, a birdcage in his sort of terrarium or whatever it is that he atrium wherever he meets his people. Um, one last thing on the why so serious thing. There's ticking on that score.

[Mina Kais]

I'm just like, yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Hans and Chris love ticking on a score.

[Mallory Rubin]

They love clocks.

[Joanna Robinson]

They love a watch. All right. For me, I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship. A tenet line, which we will revisit later this month. Actor who never returned to the Nolan verse, but should have Mina.

[Mina Kais]

I thought Erin, that was my pick, too. I mean, I also. Not just because I think, like. I think when I was seeing, like, oh, he would be great in Oppenheimer

[Mallory Rubin]

and one of the.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're doing great enough time right now.

[Mina Kais]

But also just kind of. I was looking at his IMDb and it kind of felt like he never really went. He could have become more. He's obviously a great working actor, great career. But I think this period in the mid 2000s kind of augured something that never really came to fruition for him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that's my pick, too. And I also was thinking of Oppenheimer. You could easily see him in, like, a number.

[Mina Kais]

Yeah, he looks like 1950s testifying or

[Mallory Rubin]

intellectual interrogating, you know? No question.

[Joanna Robinson]

I pick William Fichtner, who shows up as the bae.

[Mallory Rubin]

You texted me about this, and I

[Mina Kais]

didn't even think about it until you started talking about Pete.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's why they cast him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Shout out.

[Mina Kais]

But I totally forgot he was. Cause I remember very few things took me by surprise on my rewatch. Completely forgot he was the bank manager in the beginning. And I think it was because I had just watched the second season of Beef and he's in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's so good.

[Mina Kais]

So good in it.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's super funny.

[Mina Kais]

I was like, oh, my God, that's William Fitch.

[Joanna Robinson]

And.

[Mina Kais]

And he actually kind of does a lot with a very small moment in this film.

[Joanna Robinson]

They cast him as a Heat homage, which I love, and that's like a good person from Heat to put in there. They're not like, we got Val Kilmer or something like that. But, yeah, Fichtner's always good in everything he does. I Think he would be great in another Nolan film. Really good in Beef. He's really good. I've seen some episodes of this Apple show, Lucky, that's coming out later this year. He's really, really good in that. So I'm always Pro Fichtner myself.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's a fun pick. I like that one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some men just want to watch the world burn. The most Nolan thing about this movie,

[Mina Kais]

the themes which we have talked about around identity and moral ambiguity and systems, I think we were talking about, like, who the villains are. I would also say the structure of the film, which is obviously very unusual for a superhero film, where it's not just three parts. It's like six. I don't know. I didn't count them. But, you know, the having the love interest die at the halfway point, all the different. Just the way it's written is very. Christopher Nolan.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think, like, the. All the stuff we've talked about, the dark mirrors and everything, certainly just, like a core Nolan text. I think, inside of that, specifically the aspect of that. Not just weird dark mirrors, but these characters who can only think about their existence in the context of the other person. Right. And how they relate to the other person. That is like, such a Nolan obsession. Like, the Prestige is, like, I think, our favorite example of that. But it's there in Inception. It's there in Insomnia. It comes to be there in Insomnia. It's there, like. And even in a way, in, like, Memento, across the whole filmography. This is, of course, yeah, the Joker

[Joanna Robinson]

being like, I don't want you to die.

[Mallory Rubin]

The best example. That's like, yeah, who am I without you?

[Joanna Robinson]

You're so fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

You can believe me.

[Joanna Robinson]

You can believe me.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is like, I'm amazing. And that's a. That's a core idea in the comics. It's not like Nolan brought that to these characters, but the way that he. There's such an authenticity in his desire to explore that I think I had the.

[Joanna Robinson]

So unlike a lot of. I like what you're saying about the format and how it defies a standard superhero format, but in terms of, like, some of the other, more complicated. Memento, Interstellar Tenant, like, Timey Wimey, like, what's going on? Inception, different layers of reality. This is, like, relatively straightforward, but inside there are all these, like, little puzzle boxes and games that the Joker has constructed. So that, like, game puzzle box of mine, which both Nolan brothers have exhibited in their work, this is certainly, like, very Westworld coded. I'm just sort of like, oh, this Joker is a very Nolan Brothers Joker. You know what I mean? In his, like, you know, you know, agent of Chaos. Like, you know, all of the stuff that is standard, but I feel like there's like an extra layer of like Puzzle Master, which is bit a little. A little less standard Joker that they made part of their Joker, which I

[Mina Kais]

really like, probably should. Also the visual tone of the film, which it's so funny too. Right? Because at the time, it was so new for superhero film to look like this. And since then, we have seen so many imitations. Sometimes I think grotesquely done. Zack Snyder, but, you know, like the. This was like revolutionary.

[Joanna Robinson]

You and me, baby. Let's be best friends. Oh, man.

[Mina Kais]

Listen. And you know what? I actually liked the Batman, which is, you know, I love the Batman, but I like it because it's not an imitation. It's dark, but it's a noir. It's a detective movie. It's not trying to rip this off in the way that. But like, you forgot watching this. Oh, my God. This was like nothing it ever looked like this. And you could argue it really, for Nolan, right. Like, set that visual tone that it's not like he hadn't quite. But you guys are doing the project. This really begins an era for him of making movies that looked this cold and dark and felt this way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I think the Prestige, which is right before it has like. And even like Batman Begins, I think of as like a almost like sepia colored. And then this is just like grayer and grimmer. And the Prestige has more color and like, vibrancy to it. Especially like what Scarlett Johansson is wearing or whatever the case may be. But like. But yeah, this sort of like gray. Emphatically gray. But then I think of Oppenheimer as like fire flame colored. We'll revisit Oppenheimer. All right. Our greatest accomplishment cannot be behind us. What aspect of Nolan's upcoming the Odyssey are you thinking about most hyped for this month?

[Mina Kais]

Well, I want to see if Matt Damon's patience was rewarded for the turning down. I didn't know that. And the small role. I kind of want to see what we're talking about now or at the beginning of this. Pardon me, is if he gave away the best scene of the movie. Guys, it is so, so good. The Trojan horse. Like, I was also God, Avatar, letting that run before your film. Geez Louise. It is so riveting and so beautiful.

[Mallory Rubin]

Don't you think we should be best friends? Oh, man. I mean, fire and ash Hive, you Know, that movie was not very good, but Way of Water, the middle hour of Way of Water.

[Mina Kais]

Chadlin, very good in it, though. She would be the stealth MVP of Fire and Ash.

[Mallory Rubin]

She was great.

[Mina Kais]

The Way of Water, when the whales start talking, that would also be the funniest song.

[Mallory Rubin]

Hyakon, my guy.

[Mina Kais]

I literally lost it laughing in the theater. You were upset. Okay, so. But you guys, the Trojan horse scene is so good. It is so tense and so novel and so like, you know, if you're into mythology, it's just, I've never seen it come to life in this way. And I'm watching this, I come out thinking like, dude, did you, Are you gonna top this in your film? Because if not, like, that's kind of a crazy thing to do.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Pattinson's like, I'll top it.

[Mina Kais]

Fighting for a daddy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fighting for a daddy. I saw the trailer.

[Mina Kais]

I, I actually had to rewind it like three times. Like, did I hear that correctly?

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean, Bruce Wayne, that's real pining for daddy shit. No questions.

[Mina Kais]

Also, Travis Scott.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes, Yes, I have some questions.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't have a new pick. I'm repeating a pick. But it feels very appropriate here in this movie and in general with inside of the Batman trilogy, the Dark Knight trilogy, Nolan's specific spin on a story that has been told a million times. There is something so audacious about saying, I am going to not only do all of these original movies, but continue to explore a text that has been explored more than anything else, which, like in the comic verse, Batman is one of those things. The Joker is one of those things, and certainly the Odyssey is one of those things. And yet we have a confidence, I think a completely appropriate and well placed confidence that he will be able to do it in a way that feels rooted in the core of the thing and, and yet, like, utterly specific to him and his sensibility. So that's part of why that his Batman films are so successful. Certainly part of why the Dark Knight is so successful. And I, I, I've been, wait, like, excited about this aspect of him doing the Odyssey the whole time. But on the heels of the trailer and all the talk about like, the modern language and the accents and stuff, to me I'm just like, let's go. You know, like, that's part of the point actually, of like, how is Nolan gonna do this?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

This, this Time magazine piece, which I don't know if you, like, we've been in media so long. Do you ever, like, see a journalist that you've been following for a really long time, and they get at something really big. So anyway, Eliana Doctorman, who. Who did this? I'm like, I remember when you were, like, blogging, and I'm so excited that

[Mallory Rubin]

you got to do, like, the big

[Joanna Robinson]

Nolan Odyssey piece that everyone was drooling over getting. So congratulations. She got to sit in his office for multiple hours. I don't know her. I just, like, know her byline. But, like. But this is a quote from that article. It would have been enough to stop to strap Matt Damon, who plays Odysseus, to a real ship's mast and sail him past sirens. In Nolan's version, Daemon also has to perform an existential crisis as those sirens psychoanalyze him through song.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's go. Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's go.

[Mallory Rubin]

That could not be more your shit.

[Joanna Robinson]

I like. That sounds so unbearably cheesy, and I can't wait to. But it's gonna be great.

[Mallory Rubin]

This is a huge update, right? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

So Nolan has, like, in our last Nolan episode, I found this quote where Nolan's like, I'm interested in doing every genre ever except for musicals. I will never do a musical. And that hurt me personally, because as a. Like, a lover of Newsies and all other musicals, I was so bummed. But sounds like he's kind of doing a musical with the Sirens. So here we are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Never say never, folks.

[Joanna Robinson]

Psychoanalyzing Matt Damon. I'm sorry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Excited.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, well, that has been the Dark Knight. Anything? We didn't talk about that. You want to make sure we talk about Mina?

[Mina Kais]

No, I think we hit most of it.

[Joanna Robinson]

So we love Newsies. We hate Zack Snyder. We hate Avatar. We're the same person.

[Mina Kais]

I do have a question. Have most or. Okay, so I said the Dark Knight is my favorite. Prestige is kind of 1B. Would you say that's the prevailing. Like, what are you guys running into?

[Mallory Rubin]

So. And that's my number one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Interstellar is, like, for a generation. Interstellar is, like, the gold standard.

[Mina Kais]

It is.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. There's definitely Duncan.

[Mina Kais]

If you made it this far, I feel like now it's. It's. We're past the point where I would alienate Nolan fans by saying what I'm about to say. Interstellar is way too long, and. Okay. It's like if a rival was 30% worse than 30% longer.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love this take.

[Mina Kais]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

I love this take.

[Mina Kais]

That's my take.

[Joanna Robinson]

I. I like.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think it's.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm constantly fascinated by the fact that a certain Generation has latched to it in a. In a. In a very, like, specific way. And I still haven't figured out exactly why.

[Mina Kais]

What's Arrival?

[Joanna Robinson]

Um, but I don't think the. I think the Prestige is. And. And I say that as one of them, like, the hipster choice or, like, favorite Nolan.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what I mean?

[Mina Kais]

I think it's the most watchable of his films. You put that bad boy on and people will lock in.

[Joanna Robinson]

Bowie's here. What else could you ask for? So good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Bowie's amazing in that, you know, people, like.

[Joanna Robinson]

People pick Memento. Nobody picks Insomnia.

[Mallory Rubin]

Good movie.

[Mina Kais]

Tenant 10.

[Mallory Rubin]

Any 10? There are some. There are some. Yeah. We. The one movie that we had not, like, had a previous experience with her attachment to was his first movie following, which is like an hour and eight minutes we had. We just watched, and it was, like, great.

[Mina Kais]

It's good.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. It's the whole. It's his.

[Mina Kais]

Like, a blueprint for everything.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was astonishing.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's basically a student film, but, like, it's. It's really easy to watch because it's very short, it's black and white, but it has, like, all the elements of everything he's ever been interested in. We were just like, oh, it's all right here, right at the very beginning. So there's even, like, a Batman sign

[Mallory Rubin]

on one of the doors, and there's

[Joanna Robinson]

like, wow, there's Batman.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you for coming in to do this. Really appreciate it.

[Mallory Rubin]

When will you come back? When the Seahawks and Ravens face off in the Super Bowl.

[Joanna Robinson]

Alien Earth season two.

[Mina Kais]

Alien Earth, season two. Which one's more likely to happen?

[Mallory Rubin]

Eyeball jockey?

[Joanna Robinson]

Should we have Mina and Timothy Oliphant in here together?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, that would be very sweet. I mean, that would be very special.

[Mina Kais]

Try to keep it together. I got actually wanted to make my child the eyeball for Halloween and was ruled over. Overruled. Nobody will get it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who would have been the sheep in that. In that scenario? Yeah, yeah. Now I know why you were overruled.

[Mina Kais]

You know, iconic character. Perfect.

[Mallory Rubin]

She.

[Mina Kais]

She was a legend.

[Joanna Robinson]

She was a legend. She was an icon.

[Mina Kais]

Great stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you to Mina.

[Mallory Rubin]

Mina, the best. Thanks, guys. What a treat.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you to Mallory Rubin.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you to Josh Rhino Robinson.

[Joanna Robinson]

Carlos Shiroga, Scott Lee, Arjun Ramu Powell. Jamie and Dinaron Jacob. Jacob Hornet.

[Mallory Rubin]

The whole squad is here once again.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks, everyone. Thanks to Chris Nolan. Thanks to Jonathan Nolan.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you Bruce Wayne.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks Christian Bale, and we'll see you soon. Bye.