‘The Mandalorian and Grogu’ Deep Dive

Summary

House of R: ‘The Mandalorian and Grogu’ Deep Dive

Podcast: House of R (The Ringer)
Hosts: Mallory Rubin & Joanna Robinson
Date: May 23, 2026
Episode Theme: An in-depth exploration and critique of the 2026 film Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu – analyzing its story, character arcs, mythology, and its place in the larger Star Wars universe, as well as reflecting on puppetry, nostalgia, and the future direction of the franchise.

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Episode Overview

Mallory and Joanna embark on a signature “Deep Dive” into the new Mandalorian and Grogu movie, balancing infectious Grogu-fueled joy against candid, sometimes quite sharp criticisms of the film’s structure, storytelling choices, and broader franchise implications. The tone is equal parts affectionate and exasperated as they examine both the movie’s delightful puppet-driven highs and its narrative and tonal shortcomings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Snapshot & Listener Mail

• Audience/critical reception:
  • Rotten Tomatoes: 63% critics, 89% audience
  • Metacritic: 53
  • Letterboxd: 3.2
  • Box Office Tracking: $80–100 million opening weekend—strong for a TV spinoff, lackluster for a Star Wars film ([07:52])
• Discussion of prior episode with Damon Lindelof and a debate about C-3PO’s arc ([04:13])
  • “C3PO absolutely has an arc.” – Listener Mariah
  • Lighthearted Star Wars drafting rivalry reminisced

Did We Like This Movie?

• Mallory & Joanna’s Reactions
  • Both acknowledge having fun, especially together in a lively group setting ([11:40])
  • The portion with Grogu and the Anzellans is a “high of a high”—pure joy and emotional resonance ([14:08])
  • Mallory: “I just find Grogu to be genuinely and sincerely, non-hyperbolically, an exquisite and powerful force. I Love Grogu. He moves me so deeply…” ([12:16])
  • Joanna: “The stretch of this movie that was the Anzellans and Grogu gave me such strong Jim Henson, Dark Crystal, Labyrinth energy… I fucking love a puppet. Puppet stuff.” ([14:08])
  • But: Much of the movie is, in their words, “cowardly and horrible” in story structure and ambition ([14:50])
  • Vast stretches of the film (outside ~20 minutes of Grogu/Anzellans) criticized as thin on plot and emotional stakes

What Worked?

Grogu and the Puppets

• A lengthy, largely non-verbal “Grogu Alone” sequence is cited as the movie’s best—offering a magical, puppet-driven, almost Henson-esque delight ([13:18], [50:05])
• Physical comedy and small, characterful moments (like Grogu’s “Yoda cane” and building a mud hut) deeply praised
• Use of practical effects, miniatures, stop-motion admired—feels authentic to Star Wars’ roots ([85:02])
• Joanna: “The puppet stuff in this movie, 10 out of 10, like, amazing, sensational.” ([14:40])

Non-Verbal Storytelling & Risks

• The film’s choice to go 20+ minutes non-verbal is “somewhat brave” – especially for a blockbuster ([15:09])
• Real-world press tour with in-person Grogu puppet is adorable and, even if “nakedly manipulative,” is irresistible ([16:18])
• Mallory: “Let the puppet do its thing!” referencing Werner Herzog’s on-set puppet defense ([16:14])
• Non-verbal beats, emotive puppet acting, and the Grogu/Anzellans rapport singled out as the creative heart of the film ([51:23])

What Didn’t Work?

Narrative & Film Structure

• The movie is “four episodes of the TV show, maybe five… one great, the rest quite bad and boring.” ([21:48])
• The film feels structurally, thematically, and aesthetically small, despite theatrical release ([24:25])
• Constant action sequence/set piece fights with minimal character or story progress ([18:06])
• The “event” feeling expected from a Star Wars film is missing; Solo is a more apt comparison point than, say, Rogue One ([20:48])
• “There has never been a four episode stretch of the Mandalorian where this little happened. Never.” – Mallory ([23:38])

Choices About Scope & Other Characters

• Overcorrection from season three of The Mandalorian—now so focused on Din and Grogu, the broader world and deeper arcs recede ([18:06])
• Minimal connective tissue to larger Star Wars lore—no Ahsoka, Thrawn, Luke, or others ([28:57])
• Zeb’s inclusion is criticized as fan service with no real narrative payoff ([34:49])
• Absence of key supporting characters (IG-11/12, etc.) undermines story stakes & pays little respect to TV viewers’ emotional investment ([32:03])

Pedro Pascal, Din Djarin, and Character Issues

• Sparing Pedro Pascal’s face (“less than 10 minutes without the helmet”) is a missed opportunity to distinguish movie from show ([26:51])
• The movie’s supposed thesis—Din training Grogu for a world where he won’t always be there—remains undercooked and “incidental” because the plot separates them due to poison, not story-driven emotional stakes ([56:48])
• Din’s internal struggle (the Creed, his identity) feels muted and unaddressed ([54:05])
• Emotional beats are hampered by lack of character face time and meaningful, specific dialogue ([59:00])

Overreliance on Nostalgia & Rehashed Plots

• The central plot is a remake of the 2008 Clone Wars movie, which also centered on rescuing Rada the Hutt—a story the hosts and fandom found notably unsuccessful then (“That movie is like one of the single worst stretches of the overall Clone Wars... can I do it again? The answer was no.” – [41:52]-[42:06])
• Repetitive dialogue (“I’m my own Hut,” said twice, almost to comic effect; possibly meant for “second screeners” but feels lazy and condescending – [68:49])
• Creature design—puppets adored, but most CGI creatures (Hutts, gladiator pit) are “a feature failure” ([20:15])
• Jeremy Allen White’s casting as Rada criticized as a squandering of a uniquely expressive actor behind effects and voice modulation ([71:09])

“Big Picture” Concerns for Star Wars

• Fear that Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni are letting personal preoccupations and a desire to “correct” or “own” unpopular stories (Rebels/Clone Wars animation, toyetic Star Wars) overwhelm organic storytelling ([43:14]-[38:44])
• Concerns about the future as Filoni’s animated sensibility “wrestles” into live-action, sometimes clumsily ([38:44])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Joy & Grogu’s Magic

• “I Love Grogu. He moves me so deeply and he brings me such joy and happiness when he’s having fun, when he’s sneezing through a little snow cloud…” —Mallory ([12:16])
• “The stretch of this movie that was the Enzelons and Grogu gave me such strong Jim Henson… energy…I fucking love a puppet. Puppet stuff.” —Joanna ([14:08])
• “There’s something so nakedly manipulative about it. And it’s one of those things where I’m like, I don’t give a shit. Manipulate me. I fucking love it.” —Mallory ([16:18])

On Frustrations & Missed Opportunities

• “There has never been a four episode stretch of the Mandalorian where this little happened. Never.” —Mallory ([23:38])
• “You don’t feel like you’re moving forward… you do not have to have seen this movie [to watch season 4].” —Joanna ([33:19])
• “He is just… along for the ride. Also, why does Din Djarin not have, like, a baby Bjorn?” —Joanna, on Grogu’s uncertain narrative status ([49:08])
• “It was so Halo coded. I just can’t. It’s my… I can’t even talk about it. Just makes me think of him.” —Mallory, on Grogu and Din’s post-revival moment ([57:53])
• “Favreau has concocted a reason for this movie to exist, when really what he just made was like a rip-roaring adventure movie… and he’s trying to give it a heft that the movie itself does not carry.” —Joanna ([56:48])
• “Big, undeniable event? It should feel big… those felt bigger than this movie does.” —Joanna ([20:48])

On Star Wars Storytelling

• “Star wars can’t be guided by one person’s desire to center their personal favorites… That can’t be what Star wars is now.” —Mallory ([43:14])
• “He’s a Mandalorian and a Jedi, which makes him so unique… I’m like, it does, but we didn’t get that.” —Mallory ([53:49])

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Memorable Segments with Timestamps

• [13:18] – “Grogu Alone” sequence praised as the film’s highlight; compared to The Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, and Henson’s work
• [15:09] – Non-verbal stretch & puppet performance discussion
• [20:44] – “The proposition of making a Star wars movie should feel big, an undeniable event.”
• [26:51] – Pedro Pascal’s helmet: “less than 10 minutes” of face time
• [32:03] – The IG-11/12 absence and “TV homework vs. mass appeal”
• [41:20] – Rada the Hutt plot as a Clone Wars retread
• [56:48] – Favreau’s “thesis” for the film and the accidental separation of Din and Grogu
• [83:00] – Ludwig Göransson’s score and its role in crafting “Grogu’s World”

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Tone & Standout Moments

• Playful and loving—not only towards Grogu and puppet craft but also toward each other as hosts.
• Scathingly critical—not shying from labeling portions of the film “cowardly and horrible.”
• Self-aware fandom—frequent references to deep-cut lore, past drafts, TikTok, email feedback, and memes (the “Grogu is an accessory” discourse).
• Joy in community—being together in a big group, sharing snacks (blue Grogu cookies near the end – [85:22]) and the infectious delight at small Star Wars pleasures, even amid disappointment.

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Final Takeaways

• The Mandalorian and Grogu is, in the hosts’ minds, a mixed success: a deeply pleasurable puppet-driven treat for die-hard Grogu fans, with the “Grogu Alone” sequence as its heart, but overall a thin, narratively inert, and aesthetically minor entry for the Star Wars cinematic legacy.
• The film’s reluctance to advance the story, push the characters, or meaningfully connect to the broader Star Wars world is read as both a missed opportunity and a worrying sign for the future franchise direction under Favreau and Filoni.
• Puppet magic and practical effects are beloved and bring a powerful, essential joy; future live-action Star Wars should take note.
• The episode ends on a high note—discussing blue cookies, animated droid names, and how it “all comes back to Grogu”—but with a hope for richer adventures to come.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want the heart, criticism, and nerd-culture spirit of House of R’s deep dive without sitting through the ads and snack breaks.

Transcript

[Mallory Rubin]

Foreign. Hello.

[Joanna Robinson]

Welcome back to House of R. It is still Friend of the Pod Month. My friend Mallory Rubin is here. I'm Joanna Robinson. But more importantly, friend of the Pod Supreme, Grogu.

[Mallory Rubin]

Grogu's here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Grogu's here.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have a star in the studio today, folks. Stock cookie enthusiast. Wow.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we're here today to talk about his film. Yes, the Mandalorian and Grogu. Star Wars Colon. The Mandalorian and Grogu. Yes, that's right. And don't worry, we're ethical journalists, so we will not hold back simply because Grogu is here. If we have things to say, we will say them to Grogu's adorable face.

[Mallory Rubin]

We have some notes coming, but also some coos, babbles, harrumphs and purrs. And Grogu will be here with us for it all.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we're going to do all of that right after this.

[Mallory Rubin]

This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Call it all trainers. The Pokemon and target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here and the lineup is kind of incredible. A few are sure to be fan

[Joanna Robinson]

faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles, and even caboodles.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which feels perfect because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure and Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit.

[Joanna Robinson]

The first drop is in store May

[Mallory Rubin]

2 online May 3 with the second drop June 6.

[Joanna Robinson]

Explore [e-mail] the playoffs are here and

[Mallory Rubin]

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[Joanna Robinson]

Quick programming reminders. Friend of the Pod Month continues apace. We've got a summer hype. A episode that we're planning to do. Hype Meter.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yep.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some Spider Noir.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some Tenet.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And we've got a couple pals lined up for those shows. Am I going to say who they are? No, because we haven't recorded them yet and anything could happen. This is Hollywood. Dune is almost upon us. Sure is the vampire Lestat. Most importantly.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

House of the Dragon.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

A little show that we've heard of

[Mallory Rubin]

can't wait A film that I'm hotly

[Joanna Robinson]

anticipating and definitely know the name of Disclosure Day.

[Mallory Rubin]

I can't wait.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really excited.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. Odyssey around the corner.

[Joanna Robinson]

Supergirl, San Diego, Comic Con. We will be there and all the rest.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay. Valerie's like, I'm looking forward to getting sick every day.

[Mallory Rubin]

I really don't want to get sick. I was so sick after Comic Con last year and it's a busy summer, so I've got to strategize how to stay healthy and well. But I did have fun at Comic Con. So are you tipping your hype meter? Will Lestat be number one for you? You're revealing that now or should people stay tuned?

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, who's to say? Okay, I can surprise you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, I bet. Follow us on our new House of r Instagram and TikTok at House of R pod.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, maybe you'll get some behind the scenes action there. You know, some of Grogu's takes that didn't make the final edit.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ooh, too hot.

[Mallory Rubin]

We saved for social forlive

[Joanna Robinson]

and hobbitsanddragonsmail.com.

[Mallory Rubin]

that's right. The email is always open.

[Joanna Robinson]

Always. We got a couple emails we're gonna read today. Speaking of which.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

We got a response to our friend of the pod. Damon Lindelof came on. Wonderful.

[Mallory Rubin]

Fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Mallory, who won the draft on that episode? You did. I did. You did handily.

[Mallory Rubin]

Congrats.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

I like to be gracious in defeat, and I've tried to be gracious in victory over the years as I've aged and matured. Wasn't always the case, but people loved

[Joanna Robinson]

that Damon episode, as did we. We had a great time recording with Daemon and one of our listeners, though Mariah, wanted to push back on something that Damon said. Damon was trying to.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he's not here to defend himself.

[Joanna Robinson]

He can text us later. Damon was trying to push back on my Grogu is an accessory argument by shouting out a few other characters who he Star wars. Beloved Star wars characters who he felt didn't really have an arc either. And he mentioned C3PO. And this is what our listener Mariah said. C3PO absolutely has an arc.

[Mallory Rubin]

Of course.

[Joanna Robinson]

And a new hope. C3PO is disheveled, tells R2 to give up on fighting Obi Wan and doesn't see himself as fit for the adventure in Empire. He's literally broken into pieces. A symbolic death.

[Mallory Rubin]

Uhhuh.

[Joanna Robinson]

But by the end of Return, he too becomes a hero. He steps into being a God to save the team from death and being eaten enables them to befriend the Ewoks and holds the Ewoks captive with his recounting of their journey. C3PO. What a guy. How pissed do you think C3PO would be to learn that hut speak English? Speak basic.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh yeah. Interesting. There is a lot of Hutts speak in basic action from both Radha and one of the twins. Of course in. In this movie, you know, I think 3 PO the question is when you ask him that, is he coming off a memory wipe and would it really resonate in that moment in time which is just is something to consider. It's a great question. I have no comment because for I was thinking about this third Star wars draft in a row. Three PO in some way was my undoing years ago. It wasn't years. It could have been months. I don't. What is time?

[Joanna Robinson]

What is time?

[Mallory Rubin]

We invited Van on the pod to do a Star wars droids draft, remember? And as is often the case, I think with Star wars drafts, it was a little too hipster.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right?

[Mallory Rubin]

Tried to say it was Balno or as CR likes to say, but really it was hipster. Van kicked our asses and he went with some classic characters. We did not. I learned some lessons and it was a takeaway.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some lessons were learned and the big

[Mallory Rubin]

pick Star wars draft recently and I stand by the take. But 3PO was really central to your strategy. A crucial moment in how that draft unfolded. And then of course you selected. I think I had some 3 PO R to PTSD from that experience. And you were able to select them right after I should have taken them. So I just. I'm taking a break from thinking about three pounds and I really only have eyes for Grogu and the Anzellans and that's just where we are with it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Anthony Daniels in this movie. Voice. A voice in this movie. Ever present.

[Mallory Rubin]

Always.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thanks so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

Always in our hearts and minds. Just not always in my draft.

[Joanna Robinson]

Nope. But in my draft. And thank you all for voting and making sure that I won by landslide. I really appreciate you all. Spoiler warning. All of Star wars actually if it has happened in canon, in legends, in comics, in cartoons.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

In live action, on Disney plus back in the day when it was Lucasfilm. Whatever the case may be, it is eligible for us to talk about. But guess what? This movie doesn't connect to a lot. A ton of lore. No. So I don't know that we will be diving that deep into lore in this podcast.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, I do think we will talk about some of the. Yeah. Things that were chosen to be included and then maybe as more crucially not selected for inclusion in terms of the overall stretch of time we've spent with these characters. But yeah, this will be. Very little happens in the movie on the story advancement front. So not quite as much to dive into, but we do have a lot of Grogu delights to talk about. So it's a deep dive on the Grogu feelings front. If nothing else. Deep diving into those blue cookies.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's a feelings dive. Let's go now to our opening snapshot. All right, so we were recording this on Friday. It's quite early of course in the run of this movie. It just opened last night. So we're about to throw some numbers at you. But they're early numbers and the story may change by Monday or Tuesday. This is a holiday weekend, so anything could happen. Rotten Tomatoes. Currently an imperfect metric. 63 for critics. Tough.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

89. Creeping upwards on the audience score on the popcorn meter.

[Mallory Rubin]

89 on the old popcorn meter. 6389 is a big gap. Interesting.

[Joanna Robinson]

Metacritic 53. 3.2 on letterbox when I checked last night. So that is where we are box office tracking. So just like again, we don't know it's Friday, who knows what's going to happen? But 80 to 100 million is sort of like. And that was the initial expectation and then based on the Thursday night box office, that's sort of where it's holding.

[Mallory Rubin]

I talked for domestic, for domestic I

[Joanna Robinson]

talked to a couple people anecdotally who went to see it last night and their theaters were not full. So that's just, you know, even here in LA where oftentimes an opening weekend theaters are full. So that's just anecdotal evidence.

[Mallory Rubin]

But IMAX seemed pretty full scanning. But maybe not the non IMAX screens.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. And but it's a Memorial Day weekend. This is a kind of scary but fairly kid friendly movie. And you know, if people, families are looking to do something with their kids this weekend, like you know, we might see a bigger box office than that. We will see. The A.V. club has a write up on this. I've been seeing this narrative, narrative go around that $80 million is quite good for a movie that came out of a TV show. Right. You know, so if your comps are like the Simpsons movie or the J.J. abrams Star Trek movie, those made 74 million, 75 million. So 80 million would be the highest grossing movie to come out of a TV show.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Ever. However, really dismal return for a Star wars movie, and especially the first Star wars movies after seven years of no Star wars movies in the theater.

[Mallory Rubin]

So, yeah, it's solo territory. Right. That's makeslo2 happen, of course, but also it's not really the comp you want. And we've been talking for in our primer pod and you know, the last little stretch of time here about how the narrative had sort of been shaped to like, prepare for this outcome. But that doesn't mean that it's what they were initially hoping when they selected this to be the first Star wars cinematic event since 2019's Rise of Skywalker.

[Joanna Robinson]

So did we like this movie?

[Mallory Rubin]

I did it meet your hype, where

[Joanna Robinson]

your hype was like, what, you know, we talked to Damon about sort of what we were expecting. Did this meet you where you expected it to meet you? I got to sit next to you.

[Mallory Rubin]

You did, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I will say. I' I'll just say this before you say your answer.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Sitting next to you boosted my experience like a hundredfold. Hearing you react to the movie caused me so much joy. So I liked it much more than if I had been watching it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

In San Francisco in like a half empty critic screening.

[Mallory Rubin]

I got to hear your Anzellin Delight in person as well. So that was a thrill. Yeah, I love them. They're fucking great. They roll. You know, as we often say here, inside of each of us there are two wolves. And I think a couple things are true at the same time, genuinely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

I had fun watching the movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

We went like a huge group.

[Mallory Rubin]

We went with 15 people, Ringer verse and pals. It was like a night out on the town.

[Joanna Robinson]

Your husband on one side of you, the most important person in your life. Me on the other side of you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. My two greatest loves. And then my actual greatest love, Grogu,

[Joanna Robinson]

in front of me on the screen before the movie started. Because we saw it in an IMAX screening before they had the like sort of poster or, you know, display card. And it was just Grogu, like contemplative, meditative.

[Mallory Rubin]

Meditative, Very moving.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Mallory is just like, we were there early move to tears and she was just like crying before the movie started.

[Mallory Rubin]

Genuinely. And so on the like, prose side here I. This will not surprise you. It won't surprise anyone who any of the bad babies, you know, the namesake. The bad babies. Like, what a time to be the bad babies. I just find Grogu to be genuinely and sincerely, non hyperbolically, an exquisite and powerful force. I Love Grogu. He moves me so deeply and he brings me such joy and happiness when he's having fun, when he's sneezing through a little snow cloud, he makes me laugh in a really pure way and he makes me feel deeply. The Grogu deployment in the film brought me a lot of joy, specifically Grogu and the Anzellans, which is, I think, undeniably. If that had been a more central part of the movie, we have a historic achievement on our hands.

[Joanna Robinson]

Would that have just been the movie if it had been 90 minutes of Grogu and the Anzellans try to rescue each other?

[Mallory Rubin]

It's a no, no situation on the pod Bas. And it does make you think back actually to like the decision to, after separating, Grogu and Din, reunite them very quickly in another character show and then pick up in season three with them back together instead of maybe mining that really rich territory. Because the Grogu alone stretch that 20 ish, 25 ish minute stretch of the movie where Din is poisoned and out and Grogu is doing all sorts of things that we'll talk about, you know, going for filling his canteen with water, hunting to steal a fish and nibble on a fish, making a friend who could have been an enemy, building a mud hut, covering Din with leaves. I guess we just talked about it all right there. Walking with his little Yoda cane, I thought to myself, like, this is what it means to be alive and a person who is capable of feeling love. It was that high of a high.

[Joanna Robinson]

Genuinely, when you, like when people talk about nostalgia as a negative, and certainly they talk about it a lot around Star Wars, I find I usually don't fall too easily into a nostalgia trap. But I will say the stretch of this movie that was the Enzelons and Grogu gave me such strong Jim Henson dark crystal labyrinth energy as, you know, magical puppet stuff. I fucking love a puppet puppet stuff.

[Mallory Rubin]

Good.

[Joanna Robinson]

And the puppet stuff in this movie, 10 out of 10, like, amazing, sensational. The I. There's so much of this movie that I find cowardly and horrible.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, we'll get to the cons in a second.

[Joanna Robinson]

We will get to it. But I think it's somewhat brave. Not. I mean, Grogu is a. Is a. Is a. Is an absolute star and a killer. So, like, it's not brave to put Grogu on your screen, but it's brave to have a nonverbal stretch of your blockbuster.

[Mallory Rubin]

Who's and babbles and harams and purrs.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, Just loved every second of it grunting around. And it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was beautiful.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was fantastic.

[Mallory Rubin]

It actually was wonderful. Genuinely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I also just like watching Grogo in the press store because they're trotting him out in real life and it is this kind of amazing thing we were talking about. I was talking about this with, like, with the guys before the recording. There's something so nakedly manipulative about it. And it's one of those things where I'm like, I don't give a shit. Manipulate me. I fucking love it. He is just, you know, the Warner, the Werner thing. Right. Like in the show. I would like to see the baby you had in our notes. The reminder of the callback to the Nuggets that came out of filming season one, where he had to say to Werner, her dad. Yes. Who played the client, of course, in season one, and is a filmmaker who pursues all sorts of deep and introspective assessments about humanity in the world. And he looked at Grogu and he was like, let the puppet do his thing.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because they. Cowards, right.

[Joanna Robinson]

They had the puppet, but they were thinking of replacing him with cgi. And he was like, you cowards. Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And he was right. He was right.

[Joanna Robinson]

He was so right.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just the best. The expressions. What he is able to emote is incredible. So I love that one.

[Joanna Robinson]

Him being in the physical space, like, you can tell the difference when Din lifts him up, when, like, the ears wobbles are set.

[Mallory Rubin]

The way we've gone from the kind of slow moving to like, the rapid little shuffle. The rapid little shuffle. It's just sensational. That said, and I do think overall the movie felt like, again, entertaining and fun.

[Joanna Robinson]

Did you do. Because you went to go see it. I did.

[Mallory Rubin]

I saw it again Yesterday.

[Joanna Robinson]

You said 20 ish minutes. Did you time the.

[Mallory Rubin]

I didn't time it because I don't. I don't like to take my phone out and I didn't. I don't have the cinema cinema mode on the Apple Watch that feels right. It has to be around.

[Joanna Robinson]

Around 20ish minutes. The movie is 2 hours and 12 minutes long.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

So 20ish minutes of it, we love.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And there's stuff outside of that 20 minutes with the Anzellans and Grogu, you know, when they team up. And other. Other moments with Grogu and Din, you know, Din teaching Grogu how to tighten his armor, for example, which comes earlier in the film, I thought was delightful, however correct. I think the movie lacks story and significant story advancement in, like such a surprising way. You know, it was interesting because I'm like, is it surprising? Because I was thinking back to the primer pod we did, where we were like, let's make predictions. What do we think's gonna happen? And like, it was kind of like crickets. And I think maybe just because of the trailers and everything, there was a little bit of a, oh, wait, like, how much is gonna happen? But still, I was very surprised because I think a couple things. One, it is a real overcorrection to a correct impulse, but just taken to too far of an extreme of like, let Season three did not work. We broadened the scope of what this story was assessing and lost the focus on the central duo that people love.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Which was a flaw of season three.

[Joanna Robinson]

The Darksaber stuff, the Bo Katan stuff

[Mallory Rubin]

became more about, yes, like, and I like Bo Katan. I like the Mandalorian lore. But the show lost the heart of what it was. No question. Let's discover the Din Grogu R2 surprising pals and the spirit of adventure. And even the way that season three ended with the adoption and the armorer saying, like, take him out on his journeys, you know, like your teacher did for you. That's, I think, a direction that makes sense. But we find the characters. I think Grogu made some progress din almost none. And the lack of connection to the larger. Like, do we want more stuff about how somehow Palpatine returned in terms of the cloning arc? No. Do we really want to spend all of our time with like how the New Republic failed to get allow the first order to rise? No, but this is a problem with the mando verse and where we have landed on the story front then, because absent that, what you end up with is 75 ish percent of the movie is just action sequence set piece fights. And like, some of them work and some of them don't. But in the totality of it is way too much in the movie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Someone I will not name them in case they did not want this take on a microphone. But someone messaged me and was like, I think that movie was 10 minutes of Ships landing and taking off. And that is emblematic of like a large problem with the whole movie. It's just like 10 full minutes of footage of ships landing and taking off. And not to mention just a bunch of fights with CGI creatures. And like the way that the puppets work so well to me highlights what a feature failure most of the CGI is for me in this movie. Not all the dragon snake. The albino dragon snake, I thought looked amazing. And I actually think Martin Scorsese's character is, like, quite fun and works very well.

[Mallory Rubin]

Good old Hugo, but.

[Joanna Robinson]

But the gladiator pit, with all the. All the fighting there, which looks terrible in the trailers to me, and, like, even worse and protracted in the movie itself. And then all the hut stuff just, like, did not.

[Mallory Rubin]

The hut stuff is tough.

[Joanna Robinson]

Really did not work for me. And this is a hut centric movie. We're on Nal Hutta for a significant portion of the movie. We got HUDs just, like, rolling, writhing around, like, on the floor together. And it's just like, I. I am baffled that they put this together and they're like, this is what people want. And I know that there are people who. Who've seen this movie and they enjoyed it. That's great. And we love that for you. But, like, the proposition of making a

[Mallory Rubin]

Star wars movie should feel big, an undeniable event.

[Joanna Robinson]

It should feel big. And even when we were making Solo or Rogue One, which outside of the sort of trilogy sagas, felt a little bit more minor, but Rogue One has only grown in estimation, and Solo is its own sort of curiosity. But those felt bigger than this movie does. And, you know, Rogue One especially. And I think that, like, you know, the question of, like, is this gonna feel like a movie or does it just feel like a TV show? I mean, all of us walking out of the theater, talking to each other, talking to, like, friends we saw at the screening, Every single person had the same take, which is just like, this is just four episodes of the television show. Maybe five. You know, something like that. It's half a season, and, you know, my main review was one of those episodes is incredible. And the rest, yeah, it's you, Betty. It's you, buddy. Incredible. Like, genuinely incredible. Not just. Not just Grogu, but, like, Gatori, or Gatori. I'm not sure how you pronounce Stephen McKinley Henderson's, like, rocking chair character, the smoking fish.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Loved him. Embo I quite liked, too. And Bo's in the mix here. Like, that's smashing. And then there's, like, three or four episodes of the Mandalorian that I think are quite bad and boring.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay, so I've been thinking about the is it a movie or a TV show? And does that matter? Thing a little bit more? Because obviously this is something that people have been talking about since this was announced way before we even saw it and got to assess that on its actual merits, Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

Especially Given like the conversation, which, like Favreau largely denies that this is like a reconfiguring of what season four was going to be.

[Mallory Rubin]

There was a script for season four. Maybe we will still get a season four. I really hope so because I would like the character journeys to keep moving forward. I'm very invested in Din and Grogu and their journey. Okay. I think that the reason the TV movie thing holds as an argument is what you already said, which is like that, like kind of the rarity. Even as we are now into, you know, a dozen Star wars movies, it's still. We're talking about 50 years, right? So it is still one of the most. Holy shit. The entire viewing populace has been animated to anticipate, go share and then discuss a thing. Because we have a Star wars movie and it's just not something we get a lot of. And like, as we've talked about before, you know, I love Star Wars. It is genuinely one of my favorite fictional universes in the world. Pretty hit and miss in terms of Star wars movies and how many of them are. Some of them are the best movies ever made.

[Joanna Robinson]

Some of them are the Rise's comic. Quite bad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Okay. So I think for all of those reasons, it is really fair. And of course, because these characters are making the jump from the small screen and to the silver screen, from Disney in the streaming wars era to we're doing a Star wars movie and it's the first one since 19.

[Joanna Robinson]

Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

So all that's really fair. I will posit to you and the Bhad Bhabies that there has never been a four episode stretch of the Mandalorian where this little happened. Never. Yeah. And so I think it's actually an indictment.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's bad Mandalorian. It's not even like.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's just like the thing that the movie TV thing, the thing that I think we kind of collectively sometimes lose when we're like, okay, the movie needs to feel big. And it's true. It needs to feel like an event. The scale, the spectacle. We talked about all this with Daemon, all of which I think we agree about. Like, the thing that TV does best though, is allow you to feel the movement of the journey and the arc and the life that the characters are living together.

[Joanna Robinson]

You've sunk time in with these relationships and with these characters. You spent all this time with them. Not something that like, you know, the Marvel Cinematic Universe did a really good job of translating that TV feeling into a film franchise. Right. By the time we get to Civil War into Infinity War into Endgame. We have spent. We have sunk time with these characters, and we are emotionally invested in them. That is the TV magic. Right. And so to attempt to translate that here is not a terrible idea. You know, you've already got this investment, and they were trying to make a movie that you could go into fresh not having seen the Mandalorian. Yeah, that's a. That's a tough proposition. This is the constant struggle that both Marvel and Star wars are facing, you know, right now of just sort of like, you know, how much homework are we gonna ask people to do? And they're trying to make you do no homework, and it's not really working. The problem also, the other thing that made this feel small to me is small like you, buddy.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sweet baby Grogu small.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like the Anzel in Spaceship Too small. That was great.

[Mallory Rubin]

And his head was touching the ceiling. That's the best.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Din's like, I'm not gonna.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm not gonna fit, buddy.

[Joanna Robinson]

Come on.

[Mallory Rubin]

That was one of my favor. When the little ship took off, and Din's like, see a kid? And you turned to me and said, has he never seen a movie or a TV show? Made me chuckle. Grogu didn't leave. Bye, Grogu.

[Joanna Robinson]

I didn't actually physically see you get on the spaceship, but you're definitely gone. You're definitely not staying to heal me. Anyway, they use the same sets, a lot of the same, you know, like, you know, the Adelphi base. Like, same sets that makes it feel small. You know, TV sets in a movie setting. And then the Pedro Pascal thing, which is the next thing I want to talk about, which is the question we were asking ourselves when Damon was here, is how much of the movie. Yeah. Will we see Pedro Pascal, one of our movie stars, despite his, like, fairly patchy movie star run right now, but still just, like, so charming and so good at what he does when he does it. Yeah, that, like, that's a way to make this feel big. If on the show the Mandalorian, we were deprived of Pedro Pascal's face. Show us a ton of the movie star's face in the movie, and we're gonna be like, we got to see so much of Din Djarin's face, he had to kill everyone who saw him. But we got to watch him. I did have my watch on cinema mode. I timed it. It was less than 10 minutes that he had the helmet off.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right. Cause it was just the throne room de helmeting into the water fight.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I think it's no coincidence that the water fight. And I'm sure. And Brendan Wade and Lateef Crowder, who got their names at the top of the cast list in the opening credits, which I cheered for. Like, I was so excited for. Like, they deserve their flowers. They do so much work to make the Mandalorian in Action helmeted feel like a character, feel like a person. But having Pedra's face exposed inside of that dragon snake fight just lends so much more emotional investment. First of all, that creature looked the best out of all the CGI creatures. But, like, you know, I don't understand how his Beskar armor didn't sink him to the bottom of that. That watery grave. We talked about that, given the living

[Mallory Rubin]

waters Mandalore, but, like, leaving that aside, pulled himself up via the roots. Yeah, he did.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, Pedro's face was important to making that sequence work so well. And then we just. And then they just, like, toss the helmet down and we never saw his face again. And I just think that was a huge misfire of an opportunity to make this feel special and distinct from the TV show. Yeah. You've got your movie star, and I don't know what the negotiations are behind the screen. If, like, Pedro's just like, guys, I'll give you 10 minutes, but that's it. Like, my whole contract says I don't have to show up to set, so I'm not going to show up to set. Oh, you want me to. Do you want to give me a wet bump? I got to do water work. Like, no, thank you. So anyway, I just. Just. That was tough. And then also, and I was skeptical of this when Damon was pitching to us, like, all of the characters he thought was going to be in the movie. And I said. I did say this to you a couple times. I was like, don't you think they would have advertised these characters in their trailers if all these characters were in the movie? Yeah, but. So I, I. You know Cobb Vanth? Yes. I would love to see him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Now we get to keep the bit going, though.

[Joanna Robinson]

But I was not surprised to not see those other characters. But did that matter to you, that we got none of the, like, Luke or Ahsoka or Thrawn or Cara Dune, God forbid, or Cobb Vanth, et cetera in this movie? Do that matter?

[Mallory Rubin]

So, yeah, I think it does matter, and I think it's the filoniverse just feels to me as like a longtime genuine fan and admirer of his work, like, it's in a real tough, unsure place, like, lacking a confidence in terms of how to incorporate these threads. And I don't necessarily mind that we didn't get Ahsoka, Luke, and Thrawn, because I think that it's very important that when those characters. When Ahsoka and Thrawn return.

[Joanna Robinson]

Given in Book of Boba Fett season two.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Given Ahsoka season one and how that ended, I think it's really important that when we return after a bazillion years of waiting for Ahsoka Season 2, that we do so from a position of, like, assured strength that that story has been figured out. That said, this intention of the Mandoverse to build this connected universe. Like, I'm old enough to remember when we were talking about this, like, cinematic crossover event we were building toward, because it was the publicly articulated intention and plan. And so much like, yeah, it's a little bit. It's a second version of the season four becomes a movie thing where we're like. And, you know, we do. To be fair, we talk about the opposite, like, the inverse of this a lot, which is being nimble enough to adjust in real time when something isn't working.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thrawn didn't hit the way that they wanted Thrawn to hit.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. So it is important, I think, to be able to adapt and say, okay, maybe we were going to do something, but we need to retool. We need to Recenter. That's not a flawed instinct. I think that's actually appropriate. The question is, where do we then go after doing that? And is the reset taking us to a better place? I think when we look at the characters, we got. Okay, so let's use Navarro as an example. The Return. I don't mind that this isn't cluttered and full of crossover connections, even though, like, Ahsoka showing up in season two of the Mandalorian, which we talked about on our primer pod, is, like, one of my favorite things that's ever happened in Star Wars.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was my favorite Mandalorian moment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Like, it's the. I think because it's centered Grogu and Grogu and Din, while also in a way that made actual, like, organic, authentic sense incorporating a character like that. I look at, like, going to Navarro, and we don't see. I mean, the Anzellans are there, and that's fine, but, like, we don't see ig, a character who we have spent seasons of television reestablishing. It's just like, do you need IG in the movie? No. But to me, the only explanation for why IG is not there is what you said already, which is we don't want people to feel like they had to watch three seasons of television to understand the movie. Now, I'm torn on this because it does feel in this era of the IP machines, that it is prohibitive to keep up with this stuff for people. I think we've talked about that a lot. You just said it like, I think that's true. So making the story universes that people love more accessible and the barriers to entry for each new installment, like, manageable is, I think, good. However, this was a like, like the.

[Joanna Robinson]

The place that they struggled with this the most was the first season of Ahsoka. This was a conversation we had again and again and again of like, do you have to have seen Rebels to enjoy Ahsoka? And we kept trying to say you didn't, but I feel like that they never proved that to people who hadn't seen Rebels.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And so, like, I think there again, it's this, like, a little bit of what feels to me like a limbo phase where, like, the fact that the movie is completely accessible is, as a premise and a proposition, good and right. And I do not want to, like, advocate for these movies and seasons feeling like you have got to spend 30 hours of your life in order to go sit at the movies for 10 hours.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or you just listen to a refresher podcast. Good for business.

[Mallory Rubin]

You sure could. Facts. You sure could. But, like, at the end of the day, I do think there's a real risk of once again overcorrecting where the investment in the characters to that point, if it's not necessary at all, then you run the risk of it not being meaningful.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. I think there's a reverse. There's the. We don't want to make people feel like they had to watch three seasons of the Mandalorian to enjoy this movie. There's that. But unfortunately, the result of that is that for people who watch three seasons of the Mandalorian TV show, you don't

[Mallory Rubin]

feel like you're moving forward if we

[Joanna Robinson]

get a fourth season, you do not have to have seen this movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

No.

[Joanna Robinson]

Because you're going to leave these characters in the exact same place you found them.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly. And, you know, why would we not want to see the movie in order to go see the season? Especially when you had to watch three episodes of the Book of Boba Fett again, it feels like a response to the response to that versus, like a decision that makes sense and these creative merits. So we look at the Characters who aren't there. But then we have to do in tandem with that is look at the characters who are here. Right? Because you can't assess these things in a vacuum. They're entwined. They're inextricable. Zeb, this is a tough one. It doesn't work because I love Zeb. I know you do. Like, when Zeb showed up in. In the Mandalorian, the television series. I'm like, jomi and I are. We're freaking out. We're talking about in the pod. I'm doing a breakout for Social. I'm like, this is just. Here we go. It's happening. These characters. I love rebels. These characters who we care about so deeply are being brought. Not like, brought from animation to live action, though that is, of course, what is happening. Brought two more people to enjoy. That makes me glad. However, I just don't. I am not capable as like, one of the world's chief Zeb enthusiasts of articulating a case for his presence in the movie and in. In a couple ways. Right. What is he adding for Din and Grogu, like, our primary figures? He's there to pick them up a couple times and we get a joke about what took you so long. Okay, that could be literally anyone. It doesn't have anything. It certainly could have been Carson Teva, the character who basically is in the movie for 30 seconds, when his conversation with Din is the reason this movie's plot is possible.

[Joanna Robinson]

I also have to wonder, you know, you mentioned this a couple times on the. On the primer pod that Favreau has talked about, like, creatures being such a focus of this movie. And again, we love the Anzelan Grogu stretch. So there's. There's an argument to be made there.

[Mallory Rubin]

Puppets rule.

[Joanna Robinson]

At the same time, you know, my pal Dave Gonzalez brought this up to me. He's like, once we meet Coin, we don't meet a single other human after that. Like, there are no humans after that in the movie, and that's not the end of the world. But it feels like Jon Favreau's like, I made the Jungle Book, and people loved the Jungle Book and I made the Lion King, and people felt however they did about the Lion King or whatever. But he's like, can I do that in a Star wars world and just have a lot of creatures and a helmeted guy and no human faces at all and just be a post human kind of story? And I just don't think that's what Star wars is.

[Mallory Rubin]

So I don't I think that's completely fair and valid, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who would agree. I don't agree with that as like a core thesis, but I think, as is always the case, it's about what you do with the figures when you present them. Like, I don't really need wardrobe. Sigourney Weaver's ward is like just a complete whiff. Right. In every respect. So, like, having a human being with a human face adds nothing.

[Joanna Robinson]

A character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like a real character.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. So to go back to the Zeb thing, it's like you run the risk of people being like, I don't know who this is now. They don't need to. But that becomes then a demerit because it's like, what did we learn about Zeb? When I see Zeb on the story again, I want to know what happened to Kallis.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because I'm four seasons deep in caring about that relationship, and it's two returns now or I got nothing. Nothing on that front.

[Joanna Robinson]

I personally also think it that animation,

[Mallory Rubin]

that cgi, you don't like the way it looks. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

I think it's because, like, Zeb by. By, you just cannot translate every single animated character into live action humanoid. It is easier. But for Zeb, who has this interesting physiognomy that is fun to watch, the animation, I think, looked really awkward and terrible inside of this movie. Similar. Like, if this had been an animated adventure, the Hut stuff would have, like, felt way less weird than it did to try to watch this CGI version of it, you know? And I remember, I'm old enough to remember.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

When we were mad about cgi, Jabba the Hutt in the Specialized editions of the original trilogy. So now we're just got, like, we're just swarming with CGI huts. Like, I think it looks so bad.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I mean, I'm excited, genuinely excited to talk about the Hutt stuff more because it is such a true puzzler. In general, though, I think everything you just said about, like, Favs and his creature and toyetic relationship to Star wars, which is actually something I share, so I don't really mind it, but I think the critiques are very valid. I think the thing that pairs with that here, that is sort of like a negative amplifier, because if it were just that, that's one thing. But then we have the Filoni part of it, which is the.

[Joanna Robinson]

I created this whole animated world, and I want everyone to know about these wonderful char, and he is a tremendous animation storyteller.

[Mallory Rubin]

I fucking love those shows.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's a tremendous animation storyteller. It's not working the way he is trying to wrestle that world into live action. And not only that, but now with, like, the transfer of power of whatever happening is, like, making that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, that's my concern. That's my concern.

[Joanna Robinson]

Star wars is his. His obsession with making his animated world the world of Star Wars.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, I'm worried about it because it's like, I really love those shows, and I'm really invested in those characters. So I'm like, man, if this is not, like, a complete hit for me, then, like, oh, boy. And, like, I think, you know, you mentioned Embo and how that actually, like, was kind of fun and cool. And when we see Kaibu, his wolf pup, pick up the Anzellan and the Anzellan screech and arts like. Like, damn. Like this. This is actually, like, scary cool.

[Joanna Robinson]

It was really cool.

[Mallory Rubin]

You don't need to have seen a second of Clone wars to be like, that's a cool bounty hunter. You don't need to know.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's, like, had Bane connection, perfect deployment.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Embo is Rata the Hut. Yeah, Embo. No, Embo is like a character design, though, that works perfectly because we're seeing him a lot. Like, you love that hat. I love the hat and the. And the ship that looks like the hat, which I, like, leaned over. I don't talk that much in the theaters, but we did talk about the hat and the ship looking identical. Embo as a character design, very good. Like, can translate over from animation much more successfully, I think, than Cad Bane. Like, Cad Bane. Like, the Cad Bane face did not, like, work perfectly well for me. Cad Bane, from a distance, looked great, but once Cad Bane got up close, it was kind of tough, you know? But Embo was a perfect use of a minor Clone wars character with a cool design.

[Mallory Rubin]

You're scary. You look neat. You're mysterious. I'm afraid for my friends because you are here to hunt them. It's effective. And so the choice to pull that out of Clone wars does not make me think, boy, we can't stop trying to pull things forward out of Clone wars or Rebels. But again, just to say it, like, for the 90th time, two shows I love. But the rod of the Hutt thing, like, we talked about this on the primer. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is so. For people who don't know, will you explain what the plot of the original Clone wars movie is?

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. And so, like, let's.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let's.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's Go back just one wrinkle even further than that, which was like, the first trailer came out and I was like, you know what? I think this trailer looks pretty good. I'm really hyped for this movie. Let's. Let's go. As the trailers continued to come out, though.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yes.

[Mallory Rubin]

And the marketing kind of continued to unfold. And then we got these little, like, you know, on the. On Disney, the special look on the Star Wars YouTube channel and Instagram, like, official releases of these, like, one minute clips. A lot of them are very Hut centric and Colonel Ward centric. And I grew concerned because one of the clips was just. It was one of the early scenes in the movie where Ward gives Mando the mission. Right. And I was like, wait, oh, no. That is literally the plot of the 2008 animated cinematic film the Clone wars, which is, we need our heroes to go rescue a Hutt. And by the way. And it's Rada the Hutt. It's the same Hut. He's a Hutt lid. He's a baby. He's a little baby.

[Joanna Robinson]

So the plot of that movie, it's Anakin and Ahsoka.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's Anakin and Ahsoka. Obi Wan is there. Dooku is there. Ventress is there. Radha is a little. He's. He's sick. They call him Stinky because he smells bad. But it's like, we need our heroes to go meet with the Hutts. It's Jabba in that case.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right.

[Mallory Rubin]

Because he's still slithering. He's still rolling. Rescue the Hutt. There's this. This stretch on. On Teth. There's some interesting action. That movie's, like, pretty bad, but it sets up a lot of great stuff that follows.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's what I was gonna say. People didn't like that movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Exactly.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's not even that, like, this is the same movie. It's the same movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

That movie is like one of the single worst stretches of the overall Clone Wars.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. It's the same story from a movie that did not work. And I understand the impulse to have a do over on a story that you did that didn't work. And can I do it again? And can I crush it this time? The answer was no.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right? The. It's not just. Even though the doing over of centering Radha, he needs to be rescued. Our heroes are gonna go rescue him. The Hutts and a power in the galaxy. But then the idea of the reveal of, like, who was actually working for whom, you know, a Dooku plot in this movie. The frankly, I think, like, borderline embarrassing. Like, we've built up to a scene where Ward says, turns out we couldn't trust the Hutts. It's like, no, Everyone who's watching your movie has watched Star wars for their entire lives, so they know that even if you don't. And so it's like an incredibly inert storytelling choice. But to the point you just made the, like, I'm gonna get a do over. I don't know. That's what makes me nervous, because it's like, Star wars can't be guided by one person's desire to center their personal favorites and. Or make sure that the people who missed why it was a good and right thing that people should love, like, didn't feel that way about it the first time. That can't be what Star wars is now. I would like to say once again that I think Grogu is just like magic, maybe the most impactful creation of the century. I'm being sincere. Like, I just.

[Joanna Robinson]

I don't agree with you, but I do believe you're being.

[Mallory Rubin]

I find. I find the hold that he has over to me, over me to be, like, pretty unmatched again. So there was a lot in the movie that I enjoyed and had fun watching. I'm very concerned about the things. The things that are. Are that don't work in it aren't just worrying inside of the movie. They become worrying for where we are. In the mando verse.

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say, and I've said this before, and I'll just reiterate it sitting next to you and hearing your delight at every single babble and coo and ear wiggle and shuffle and all. And, like, I just love him so much. Every little hair that just got ruffled on his head and stuff like that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Looks great.

[Joanna Robinson]

You loved it and I loved hearing your joy. So, like, genuinely, that did matter to me. We've gotten a little out of hand. But let's, like, just arbitrarily now go into our deep dive, which we kind of already did.

[Mallory Rubin]

We've already done it. We'll just.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll just keep doing it.

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[Joanna Robinson]

All right, now, here's the deep dive. We've already done most of it. We'll just like roll back through again in case we have other things to say. So the first section, I'm. I'm naming thusly. Let's just start not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love. Puppets.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Going out of order. Deal with it. Okay. Groguin and the Unzellans. We've already mentioned knockout stars of this. They're puppets. It's an incredible year for puppets. Let's talk about it. Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Mallory Rubin]

That's right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Project. Hail Mary.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, Rocky. Stop.

[Joanna Robinson]

Grogu and the Unzellans.

[Mallory Rubin]

The best. Fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are there going to be puppets in the Odyssey? One can only hope.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dare to dream.

[Joanna Robinson]

Dare to dream.

[Mallory Rubin]

Dare to dream.

[Joanna Robinson]

We've seen Scylla, but what does Charybdis look like?

[Ad Read Voice 1]

I don't know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Great question. Maybe it'll be a puppet. I think this was truly excellent. I do think that there's like a lack of. Again, even. I think Grogu had the most. Grogu had those character beats. More so certainly than Din. As we. As we talked about. I think even. Even still, while we got to see Grogu move into like the next phase of maturation in a way that I found really cool to watch, you know, he's doing things on his own, he's making decisions on his own. He is communicating in like a much more advanced way. He's always had the coups and babbles, but he's responding.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's like his rumps and his babbles are like syllable matched to the words he would be saying. He's nodding.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. When I got plenty of pushback, as I knew I would on my. Like, Grogu is an accessory take. Right. A lot of our listeners were like,

[Mallory Rubin]

it's a scandalous take.

[Joanna Robinson]

Are like, fuck you, die in hell. Right. Okay, fine.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, no, well, that's not okay. Don't say that.

[Joanna Robinson]

But you know, don't say that in the comments, in the emails or whatever. People are like, what about chewbacca? What about R2? You know, ETC. Like, these are like non verbal characters, you know? But like, here's the difference. Han can understand Chewie and so I can understand Grogu. Great. Din needs to understand Grogu.

[Mallory Rubin]

She does understand him.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not really.

[Mallory Rubin]

I think Dennis had been a bad dad over the years. And I gotta say, I actually.

[Joanna Robinson]

Let me finish, please. Han can talk to Chewie. And so we know what Chewie's saying. Cause Han's like, yeah, I agree with you, buddy. Like, blah, blah, blah, the beeps and boops C3PO can respond to. You know what I mean? Like, you need to have. If the babbles and coos are what we're getting, if the grunts and the groans, stuff like that, as expressive as he is, I need Din to be like, you're right, this is dangerous. Or like, you're right, blah, blah, blah. Like use that old Star wars trick to get this non verbal character to have more of a presence inside of the storytelling.

[Mallory Rubin]

I do think that. I think they carry on like conversations I do.

[Joanna Robinson]

That we don't see. No.

[Mallory Rubin]

That we witness on the screen as we watch their story. I mean, I think that they're, they're communicating. I think especially in this film. But to this point, like when Grogu is doing things and didn't respond like they're, they're feeling. Don't.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not that switch. Not that switch.

[Mallory Rubin]

There is a lot of not that switch and not that. But that's. I told you to sit down. Like he's learning. Right?

[Joanna Robinson]

I will say. I just, just. And I Even Damon Lindelof agreed with Me, for a lot of this movie, Grogu is an accessory. He is a backpack. He is a parrot on a pirate shoulder. He is just like, being. He's along for the ride. Also, why does Dinjar not have, like, a baby Bjorn? I. There's no, like, harness, I guess there's a free.

[Mallory Rubin]

The freedom of.

[Joanna Robinson]

For, like, yeah. Dear life to a shoulder. It's. It's tough for me to watch anyway, that being said, I did lean over to you.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

During the Grogu Alone stretch and said, you win this one.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

He is a character in that stretch.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, he's.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's a character.

[Mallory Rubin]

He's the main character.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's maybe the only character it reminded. Both Jomi and I were reminded of a couple Avatar the Last Airbender episodes, Office Last Days, or Zuko Alone was like one we released. So we've been calling this section Grogu Alone.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, it's fantastic.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great concept, really good. I mentioned the Dark Crystal. I was also reminded of the Bear, which is a movie I keep bringing up on podcasts, but it's like a fairly obscure 80s movie that just followed this bear. It was shot like a nature documentary, but it was the story of a bear who loses his mom, manages to adventure through the world, and he is non verbal. And it was just like, you know, there's no, like, voiceover. It's just you're watching this young cub explore in the world, and it is, like, extremely powerful and extremely good until he tries shrooms, and then it's very upsetting. Um, but, like, it almost makes me angrier at the rest of the movie. How good?

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure, yeah, absolutely.

[Joanna Robinson]

Grogu Alone Stretch is. Yeah, I could have. I honestly could have done without the Yoda stick. I did not think we needed it. I thought that was like a bridge too far. But, like, the physical comedy of him trying to, like, jam din into the mud hut that he built. Wonderful, incredible. The relationship, the near verbal relationship that he builds with Gatorary or Gatori, however this person chooses to pronounce his name.

[Mallory Rubin]

Loved when he called him Little Traveler. That was great.

[Joanna Robinson]

Stephen McKinley Henderson, great vocal performance in this. I, like, I saw his name in the opening credits. I was like, I didn't know he was in this movie. And then I was like. And then I heard his voice.

[Mallory Rubin]

I was like, there you are.

[Joanna Robinson]

Great. Like, really good. Fearing for him when Embo is hunting him. Like, all of that stuff was just so tremendous. And, yeah, it just made me so much more disappointed in the rest of the movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. I think Grogu deserves a better movie around him. No question. I think Din, you know, certainly does. Grogu routinely throughout this movie, in little ways and big ways, is making decisions. And that was a really fun and cool thing to watch because he is like, sometimes those. He is behaving and doing something because Din sends him forward, right? Crawl up through the vent and open the door and let me in. Because it's a character Pedro Pascal is playing, though certainly not in that moment. It's fun to think of, like, him hoisting, you know, Joel hoisting Ellie up and stuff like that. Right? All our, all our favorite lone wolf and cub pairings. Grogu learning on the job from Din. This is where, again, like, the kind of like, there's. There's cohesion, but a lack of forward momentum because you have. It tracks that they're out doing this thing. They're hunting Imperial remnants, which is where we left them. Right? Like Din going to Carson Teva and saying, you know, I've got the little one now. I need to be more selective in my assignments. Let me do this work for the New Republic. I thought Limberg made a really interesting point in his write up for the ringer.com with a great website, which was basically like, too, too much maybe of like, sliding Din into what the. The Cara Dune Ranger of the New Republic role was supposed to be. Because, like, I Din ending season three saying, I want to go hunt these Imperial remnants because fuck the Empire. That makes sense. Din taking the assignments. That makes sense. But the, like, leap toward the. Where we are at the end of like, well, kind of. You are just like, working for the New Republic, which Din was like, really critical of as a governing body and a force for good or for better. Right? There's like, a little bit of story missing there. And it feels like, again, a little bit of the product of, like. Well, we're. We don't know what to do about the, like, Mandalorian Creed. This is the way aspect of this anymore. But part of what's so interesting and cool about Grogu overall, in the story, overall, them choosing each other. Grogu saying fuck you to Luke and going back to Dane. The shirt. You've got the shirt. Wonderful. But just the fact that Grogu is a Jedi and a Mandalorian and rejects the idea that he can only be one or the other, he's going to be both in his own way is amazing. I don't know that we really felt

[Joanna Robinson]

any of that, any of that.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

And Like, Favreau's been talking about that in the promo. He's like, he's a Mandalorian and a Jedi, which makes him so unique.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I'm like, it does, but we didn't get that.

[Joanna Robinson]

He could have, like, the breastplate is, you know, like, the. Like, the fact that he is a Mandalorian or the fact that he is a Jedi. Like, how is that involved in anything we've seen? And how is that any different from where we met him, you know, at

[Mallory Rubin]

the beginning of the show? The fact that, like, he has all of his armor, because we saw him in the armorer form, his rondelle, and he has his wrist rocket because of the dart training, you know, with the. With the COVID Like, all of that is there. And we understand why they're out on these adventures. And Grogu is, like, in the face of physical trappings. Yes, in the face of the physical action, because he's on his journeys and supposed to go learn and do these things, but we're not moving forward actively in terms of, like, them really talking about that with each other and, like, what it means. And I think we. I. Because Grogo had these opportunities when Din was taken to basically team up with the Anzellans and decide to go. He suits up, he puts on his wrist rocket, puts his bombs in his satchel, he tightens his armor, just like Daddy taught him, and he heads out to go find his dad. The Anzellans leave, he decides to stay. Like, he makes all these decisions. He goes to hunt for fish. He builds the hut to protect Din. Like, but Din, I think one of the most dramatically compelling things about the show to date has been Din grappling with the different aspects of his identity, right? Like the rigidity of the creed, but then the pull that Grogu has on his heart. And so you have something that is so rich. And I was intrigued from the trailers because we have these lines and these ideas, you know, and we hear it in the movie, like, the old protect the young, and then the young protect the old. This is the way. And that exchange about how Grogu was gonna live for centuries and centuries and centuries, we hope protect him at all costs, and Din won't, and so he will be without him. And so you have this opportunity. We see that. We glimpse what it will look like.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I read this quote from Favreau? Right? That. So this, to Favreau, is the thesis of this movie, right? It's time for Grogo to go out in the field and for dad to show him the ropes. As a dad, it taps into the sense of the hero as a protector. You're trying to create a safe world that you're leaving behind for the next generation. He won't always be there to protect the kid, so he's got to prepare him to make sure he's going to be okay. I do not feel it's incidental. Right. Mando gets poisoned and because he's poisoned and incapacitated and like, healing the flesh wound does not heal him.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Grogu is left alone. Yes. So it was incidental that Grogu is left alone. I do not feel that that thesis is fulfilled at all. Even though there are nods to it in the things that people are saying. But I do not feel like the thesis of this movie is that. And it feels to me like, because we're talking about, there's no stakes, no plot. No. All of this in this movie. Favreau has concocted a reason for this movie to exist, when really what he just made was like a rip roaring adventure movie with a lot of like CGI fighting and, and like, you know, ships and stop motion animation and all this sort of stuff like that. And.

[Mallory Rubin]

But he.

[Joanna Robinson]

He's trying to give it a heft.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

That the movie itself does not carry.

[Mallory Rubin]

Well, I think there is like a kind of undeniable aspect of fear here because we've now had it happen a couple times and it's like a. A safe. It almost feels like maybe safer inside of a movie where you don't even have the passage of one week in a streaming series to wonder if they'll be reunited and to wonder how long you'll have to watch them apart. And it's, you know, there's a dissonance because like the, the thing, the single thing people love most about the Mandalorian and now the Mandalorian and Grogu is the Mandalorian and Grogu together. It's Din and Grogu together. It's that bond and that duo. However, in terms of dramatic tension. Right. And the idea of putting your characters in new situations, seeing them apart in real time, because it primes us for the inevitable, which is that no matter what, no matter what their story brings, when Din is alive, the bulk of Grogu's life will be them apart. Like, it's so interesting to allow us to glimpse that. I think when Din wakes up, Grogu wakes up. He's alone, right? Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

He nestled in his little crook of his own, like my cat does.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that's like part of why I love it. It's just so Halo coded. It's like I just can't. It's my.

[Joanna Robinson]

I know.

[Mallory Rubin]

Can't even talk about it, but like, just makes me think of him. But Grogu goes out and Din is like, what's up, kid? Says the line that we'd heard in the trailer. And then that's it. There's like, that's such an incredible opportunity to like have him come sit down, bring him on his lap and like talk to him about the fact that he's gonna die. Guess what?

[Joanna Robinson]

Also, I love you. You're so beautiful. And I'm sorry. I really think a lot of this would be accomplished because Pedro Pascal is a tremendous actor. If we could see his face.

[Mallory Rubin]

Come touch his little face again. When Grogu was lifting up his helmet to feed him the little, the poison healing balm, the little, the goo, I was thinking of Alice Rivers, you know, and her little Harrenhal mashups. Just there's an opportunity there for a conversation between them that could have been so meaningful. Just like the ones we had seen with like Ahsoka and Grogu when they're communicating.

[Joanna Robinson]

Or like you raised Ellie and Joel. Like, you know, the stuff that we have seen Pedra Pascal do as a gruff caretaker of a small.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love you in a way you can't understand.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, there's not. It's not just those dialogue moments that are very important to us. It's the glances, it's the non verbal acting that Petra Pascal is very good at that we don't get to see because he's got that fucking helmet on.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I do love the helmet. It looks iconic. But we need those moments where we see his face.

[Joanna Robinson]

He can slap it on when he needs to fight Rocketeers, but we need to see him like worried about, you know, we need to see his fucking face. We just do. And we're not going to like, that's just not. I know it's not gonna happen. It's a bummer. But a lot of what they're hoping to accomplish, that depth cannot be communicated merely in a head tilt. And it needs to. We need to see someone's face reacting to something that is what human storytelling is about. So I think it's very important. The baby, the baby is expressive.

[Mallory Rubin]

I mean his eyes, his cheeks, his ear flaps. And there are things Din does sometimes with the helmet on that give us that the voice, you know, because Pedro's voice is so expressive, he's doing as

[Joanna Robinson]

Much as he can.

[Mallory Rubin]

Even when just the arm. Din's arm kind of scoops up not only gross Grogu from the water, but all the aliens. It's like there are, there are, there are ways. It's a. So much of this is the balance. Like, we go. We don't have time for those moments because we have to go right to the next fight and the next chase sequence, etc. So, yeah, I also, in addition to wanting to see Din, like struggle a little bit more, you know, even like the helmet coming off, I mean, it's such a familiar beat now at this point, they're like, well, now, okay, well, I gotta kill you because you've seen my face. But I'm like, do we need to go back to season three of the Mandalorian in this respect? Which was such a miss? No. However, the entire plot of season three of the Mandalorian hinged on him needing to go bathe in the living waters to redeem himself because of violating the Creed. And yeah, we get to the point toward the end where the armorer says to Bo Katan, like, Bo Katan walks between worlds, and you have more than one way to be a Mandalorian. And finally, at last, our characters make some progress in accepting that people can choose to live their lives differently. But Din still believes in the Creed. So, like, it weirdly was too chill of a reaction actually for somebody pulling off his helmet, given, like, how central that has been previously to his arc. I don't want the, like, the same exact rep, but it didn't totally track either.

[Joanna Robinson]

Can I talk about my most frustrating inconsistency in this movie? Absolutely. That's a great one, though. Like, his reaction to the helmet coming off. Grogu in the fort. Okay, so we get force healing, which we always love to see. Animal empiric. Right. He takes over the mind of the wolf dog, which is something that you predicted would happen, but it was very short lived, which is something you sort of like, commented on at the time. Hoists Rada the hut up out of the pit. That seems like it took a lot of energy, right? You didn't even have to take a nap afterwards, but it was just a lot, right? Yeah. In a flimsy little brass bird cage. Cannot bend the bars to get out of containment when the gladiator pit fight is happening. Like, I was so shocked to see Grogu so easily damseled and then later, like, revealed to be a strong Force user. What? What are we doing there?

[Mallory Rubin]

I was confused in real time. And the Dejaric like, hollow chest gladiator scene as well. Because it. It certainly is a moment where he can and should use the Force. However, I guess, like, the only. The only thing I could Toss out is one. He's still learning, right? He's 53ish. So he's like five. You could say that. I don't think that really holds because he's basically on instinct using the Force. Like, he. He grabs some snacks sometimes. Very. Yes, of course. Fucking Colonel Ward. Stopping Grogu from eating a snack is just an outrage. I would put that number two on the list of outrageous things, though. Number one, Din needs to stop saying heel.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, my God.

[Mallory Rubin]

To Grogu.

[Joanna Robinson]

What? That upset you so much.

[Mallory Rubin]

I actually find that, like, galling and gross. This is my version of Joe on Survivor saying wasn't appropriate.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not appropriate.

[Mallory Rubin]

Disgusting. Disgusting. That's just weird. It's like, he's a. He's your son. He's like, heal, heal. Like, what the is that? I didn't like that and did not like Ward not letting him eat. Everybody just needs to let Grogu eat. He's a growing boy. He needs his nutrients. We've got his favorite cookies here today because we are awful caring guardians for our beautiful boy. You know, whether it's like, in very deliberate. I'm gonna use the Force to push dad forward into the mud hut. That isn't big enough. Very cute. Or okay, just boom. I'm gonna. Oh, I'm gonna go and Din told me to help Radha, so I'm gonna use the Force to move the levers. He does it that way. Or if it's like, just on instinct, I've gotta do okay. Yeah, we've seen him use it enough different ways that there's no reason he couldn't use it there. I guess it's like the.

[Joanna Robinson]

They're.

[Mallory Rubin]

The threat is too big around them.

[Joanna Robinson]

You're tap dancing and I appreciate the tab. Dancing.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't think it makes sense either. I'm trying to like, for what the

[Joanna Robinson]

logic of the movie could be explanation for it.

[Mallory Rubin]

The reason that it doesn't make sense actually, to me is less about Grogu not freeing himself, even though that also doesn't make sense, because I think it would have been logical and cute for him to basically sneak out. But the thing that really doesn't make sense is that he's not using the Force to try to help Daniel in, because that's just canon. How did we become Clan Mudhorn in the first place?

[Joanna Robinson]

If they're. If. If they had a special Force dampening cage that they put him in, like, handcuffs, like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Sure.

[Joanna Robinson]

But they didn't.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Very strange seeing him use the Force Healing again after, because, of course, he used it in season one, episode seven to force heal grief Karga. We realized in hindsight that he had been trying to use it to heal Din earlier in that season. That in real life, in real time, was, you know, mere days away from Rise of Skywalker when we saw the Rey Kylo Force healing used. Now we've seen it again, you know, so this power Grogu's very powerful in the Force. The midi count is off the charts, as we know. The fact that Grogu can force heal is, I think, gonna continue to be relevant in the story moving forward. The, like, pull the poison out versus just closing the wound thing, you know, he's a baby. He's learning. The animal bond was really interesting to me because I think that it seems so clearly relevant with Grogu, specifically because, you know, we saw him with the rancor in Book of Boba Fett. We had the purrgal moment where they're in hyperspace and he is, like, observing with and almost communing with the Purrgil as they pass by. At the beginning of season three, it certainly felt like, like, across season three, that we are setting up this Grogu will be the one who rides the Mythosaur to, like, unite all the Mandalorians. Feels like that's where we're heading for Grogu. I like it. And so seeing it bear fruit here, although it didn't hold, was, like, not surprising. Once again, though, I do feel compelled to note that this is a Filoni preoccupation, because this was really central for Ezra, too, including with the Purgle, of course. That's how Ezra ends up banishing Thrawn. Right? But the Loth cats and the. The Lo Wolves, the Furnax, I think it's pronounced that whole search, which the maul kind of, like, weaponizes. Right? So this aspect of, like, I think it's a really interesting Force power because you can use it to, like, calm and commune and, like, as Kanan trained Ezra, that's really about, like, peace and connection. Like, a beautiful idea of how you think about the Force when it's weaponized and it goes wrong. For Ezra, it's really, like, about control and taking over the mind, which is bad. So I think it's an interesting power to continue to see what, like, impulse Grogu has and how how far character we saw Force choke Caradoon on instinct in season one takes it. But I do kind of again, I like how much of what we see is going to be like another version of a thing we've played with before with other characters in the Filoni toy box or a new thing entirely. I'm fascinated to see how that goes in the future.

[Joanna Robinson]

I have some hut based questions for you for the listener, Emily. Okay, here's Emily's. And these were only some of Emily's questions, to be honest. You, Emily says, does Rada slash Stinky still have trauma for the first time? He was kidnapped and that is why he was so content with staying kidnapped. Where was Stinky during the rise of the First Order, since they're both going to conveniently live until 500 RADA and Grogu spin off show post First Order, when I need more of them playing on the beach together. Do any of these questions inspire a. A response from you?

[Mallory Rubin]

You know, I did think that, that the Radha Grogu moments were cute. Like them playing in the ocean, snoozing together the nap. Like that stuff was, I thought, actually quite cute. And I understand the impulse behind it, which is to take a character who reminds us of a famous character in Star Wars. Now, in Radha's case, it's literally his dad, Jabba. In Grogo's case, Yoda and Jabba, it could literally be, as we speculated before, like an actual, actual offspring. But like just the reminder. The fact that like when he meets Luke, when he talks to Ahsoka, it's like you remind me of someone, right? This kind of shadow that looms over you and who you are both to the people in the story on Toss at home. But like, the long lifespan.

[Joanna Robinson]

But like, dear God, Mallory Rubin, some of the worst writing I've ever seen in my entire life is when Rada in two separate scenes says the exact same boring thing, which is like, I'm not my dad's son. I'm my own man.

[Mallory Rubin]

And it's not even, why is he

[Joanna Robinson]

saying, I'm on my own man.

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm my own hut.

[Joanna Robinson]

I'm my own hut. Like, what is he talking about?

[Mallory Rubin]

I'm on my own hut. It's very strange.

[Joanna Robinson]

But it's the exact same scene. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Back to back. It's so confusing. And this happens a couple times in this movie in a way that felt to me almost like the Netflix exec instructions that everyone's gonna be second screening your TV show or your movie. So you need to repeat things so that in case people weren't paying attention, they got it. To see that in a theatrical release of a Star wars film is so depressing to me. Like, monumentally.

[Mallory Rubin]

I. I thought this was very strange as well. And we got it with Janu, with Lord Janu quite a bit as well. Like in the scene at the. The salt ration bar. And there was some stuff in that, in that stretch that was kind of fun and cool. Marty Scorsese crushed it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Salt as currency was a fun idea.

[Mallory Rubin]

It was a fun idea. It felt so clunky to like hear these characters just repeat this thing. And it's like we're trying to give you a sense of this place without like totally giving you a sense of this place. And then coin. LordJanu repeats. I got, I feel like four, at least four times in this. In that exchange with Din, basically an offer for him to just please consider fighting in the pits. The people would love to see a fabled Mandalorian warrior come fight in the pits. He says it like four times. Then you have the Radha repetitions that you notice. Bizarre in general, but particularly heavy in their impact as like a ham fisted bit of dialogue and just scripting because there's so little dialogue in the movie plot. But also like, people don't talk that much in the movie. So when there are only so many lines and exchanges and like six of them are repetitions of things we've heard those same characters say. That's like quite weird. I thought on the RADA front in general, this was one of the weirdest is. It's hard for me to think of a weirder use of Jeremy Allen White than this. He is one of our most. We've. We've praised Grogu a motive for being emotive and expressive. Jeremy Allen White. That is like the whole thing. You watch Car too. Pedro too. You watch Carmi. You w. You watch Lip on Shameless or on the Bear. And it's like what he does with his face.

[Joanna Robinson]

Such a lip fan.

[Mallory Rubin]

The way his eyes glisten and it's like we were deprived of that completely. And then even his voice is like modulated in a very sweaty way.

[Joanna Robinson]

He could have hired literally anyone to voice that character. There was no reason to hire Jeremy Allen White. That was so bizarre. But yeah, let's take some of our most expressive actors and then not let them do anything. Meanwhile, with love and respect to Johnny Coyne, an actor I have like, no familiarity with as John Ooh, Coyne, the actor's Name is Johnny Coyne. The character's name is John. Ooh, Coyne.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes. Molly.

[Joanna Robinson]

Should we come up with Star wars names for each other that are just basically our own names? Sure. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

That is wild. Johnny Coyne.

[Joanna Robinson]

I was like, is she friends with Jon Favreau? Like, what. What is. What is happening here?

[Mallory Rubin]

What would your name be? Let's see. So Joanna Robinson. It would be like changing Joanna to Jonah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Or Joe to just Joe. Joe and Robinson to, like, Roberson.

[Joanna Robinson]

It should be a droid, like J O. Like J O. J O. Roberson Robertson. And it's just, oh, J O. J O. Jo. Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

I love it.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

Consider it your guy.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, it's hard to beat Darth Mal. Like, there's really nothing I can do. Hobbitsanddragonsmail.com if you have Star wars names for us that are basically just our names, because that's what they did with Johnny Coyne. But Johnny Coyne.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not very good in this movie. Like, I don't think John A. Coin is a great character at all. He's just kind of there. I kind of liked his perp walk when he's back at Adelphi. Like, his insolent perp walk was kind of fun.

[Mallory Rubin]

You know what? Like, that, like, drove me crazy just that they brought him there. Like, this is your base.

[Joanna Robinson]

Secret base.

[Mallory Rubin]

What are you doing? What if he escapes? Or what if he has a way to communicate with the other Imperial remnants? Now they can all go find a Delphi base. That was bizarre. So the coin character. And so we have two Imperial remnants. We haven't really talked about the opening.

[Joanna Robinson]

Oh, yeah, there's a cold open. That's basically just what the trailer was.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes, yes. So those two characters, those two Imperial warlords we have, of course, seen in the Mandalorian before. We saw them in the Shadow Council stretch in the penultimate episode of season three with Moff Gideon. That was the. There's Hux. Is there. Pelly's there. That was like a kind of fun and interesting scene at the time Thrawn and the Specter of Thrawn was attacked.

[Joanna Robinson]

But, like, we took random little holograms from the Mandalorian show and made it like.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah, it's strange because it's like, again, it really does sort of reek of. Okay, the Thrawn connection. That was supposed to kind of tie all this together as we build toward, you know, as we use these stories to continue to. Much as Clone wars did for the prequels. Flesh out and explain how we got from point A to point B. Right. I think because both of those Imperial warlords were featured in the trailers, it seemed like that would be a more central continuation of a core aspect of the plot, which is we can't let these relics of the Empire linger in the galaxy and work to restore a thing that they think in real time will be the Empire, but we know will become the first order.

[Joanna Robinson]

Right. We're 10 years out. We're about. We're roughly 10 years after the Battle of Yavin, and we're roughly 10 years before the First Order begins. Not takes over, but really begins, according to the Abys.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

And so we're right in the midpoint of the defeat and then the reforming of it.

[Mallory Rubin]

Right, Right.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. I just don't think it felt, you know, the way that Daemon characterized it, like a bond cold open. Right. Like bond mid mission, which is where we find the Mandalorian at the beginning of this movie. And so. So it's.

[Mallory Rubin]

It's.

[Joanna Robinson]

I mean, it's. It's a funny scene, the way that he is, like, bullying all these people, and they're like, he went that away. We fucking hate this guy. Go get him. Like, that's funny. And there's a lot of, like, yeah, dazzling action there for, you know, if that's what you're coming to the Mandalorian Grogu for, you know, and if you want to see familiar shapes and different troopers and all this sort of stuff

[Mallory Rubin]

like that, we get our Imperial Walkers.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's. It's all there. I just didn't. Was not invested in it at all. You know what I mean? And like, I, you know, other than

[Mallory Rubin]

what Grogu was doing, Grogu was killing it once again. I thought it was. I thought it was fauna, one of the more successful set pieces and action stretches of the film. I think it looked really cool to see it in a movie theater in imax, you know, even just like the. When they're riding the walker over the cliff. And if you're watching it on the big screen, you really feel like you're going with them. The pull to the dark side. And this was Star wars always. And this was also present in the Pursuit of Radha when Grogu. Very cute. Leading the charge again. He's the one leading the way.

[Joanna Robinson]

Not.

[Mallory Rubin]

Din now jumps into the little cradle that has been abandoned by the Rodian and zooms off. You're sort of like, oh, you see already how this will become an amusement park, Like a theme ride where you're almost being ported into the how do

[Joanna Robinson]

you feel about Shikari as a. We're doing Chicago, but we've called it Shikari. Is that the Johnu coin of planet names?

[Mallory Rubin]

I guess it might be. It's interesting because, like, you know, we talked about in one of the real misses of season three, which was the Jack Black Lizzo episode where Din had his big, like, droid regression and Din and Grogu were separated in a way that is like, oh, it's actually bad sometimes when they're separated. It's not always like a rich, rewarding character thing. And you know, the other thing, of course that was just a huge miss in season three was the let's just go spend all this time with Pershing and Kane on Coruscant. So, like, again, to say why was there not more of the continued story when the continued story has sometimes really been off is like a little bit tricky. But the Blade Runner. The Blade Runner kind of visual aspect of that that we talked about in episode six where like, oh, they're trying to do a Blade Runner thing with even just the pursuit and the chase and everything. I don't know, like, sometimes it looked. I thought that, that I thought Marty Scorsese, who has, you know, made no bones about shitting all over Marvel and then decided to be in the Mandalorian

[Joanna Robinson]

Grogu, that this is the Star wars that he's in.

[Mallory Rubin]

Pretty strange. That said, I thought Hugo kind of landed as a character. It was entertaining and really racing.

[Joanna Robinson]

I agree.

[Mallory Rubin]

And that flat meat sandwich with, by the way, on the subtle Easter egg front, a literal egg, the Mudhorn egg with the hairy egg, you know, putting the yolk on Grogu's sandwich. And I was like, ports us back to the Clan Mudhorn origins for these guys. Amazing there on that planet.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah. Can I go back to. You mentioned season three, Episode three of the Mandalorian. Yes, the Convert as a sort of universally reviled episode. Yeah. The writer of that episode is no Clor. And no Clor is the third billed writer on this movie. They took the writer of the most reviled episode of the Mandalorian and had him work on this movie.

[Mallory Rubin]

I don't totally get it.

[Joanna Robinson]

That's so confusing to me when there are beautifully written episodes of the Mandalorian that exists.

[Mallory Rubin]

Gorgeous. It did also make me think we would be doing more of the New Republic first order stuff, which is here as a framing for Howden is sent on his adventures, you know, looking for the Ace of Staves. The Ace of Staves. But like, we don't really? You know, you mentioned the timeframe for the first order and like to think about where we are plotting these points and the. The BBY's the ABYs like 21 ABY and 29 ABI. ABY for key first order dates and then 34 ABY for Force Awakens. Boy, we've got a lot of story to cover still if we're going to keep fleshing that out from now to then.

[Joanna Robinson]

And I just don't want to.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. So then it's like, well, let's find other cool fun things to do with Din and Grogu that don't just feel like Rad of the Hutt is here for no reason.

[Joanna Robinson]

You mentioned the score in Shikari. Is there anything else you want to talk about before we get to the Ludwig Goranson score, which I loved. Oh, just wanted to end on a. An upset.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's see. Anything else? I mean, I guess the twins, you know, on the Hutt front, just not. We're not only porting things from the Clone wars, we're porting things from the book of Boba Fett too. And you know, on a repetitious story beat front, like the let's go challenge Boba on Tatooine because we can't have any threat to our crime syndicate might. And then here, Radha, we can't have a threat to the hold for the hot crown. We just have to be able to do something a little more fresh than this. It feels in a story world as big as a galaxy far, far away. Actually genuinely impossible that there's not a newer, fresher story to tell. I did think seeing the Hutts on Nal Hutza, which we've been to Nal Hutza in the animated verse and the idea of like the swampy planet and Hutt space and the Hut Council and stuff like that, it's interesting, you know. 0 the hut is an animated character who I is like deranged and like fascinating to watch in animation. So it's not like it's not always a miss when, when Hutts are back in the. In the story or anything like that. I did think it was pretty wild

[Joanna Robinson]

to get not a miss in animation.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. And it can be quite fun in animation. The best live action deployment was um, interesting to just see the movement of like the rolling in the. In the gladiator stretch. Fascinating. But really it was the like oh my God. For a minute we're back in the bowels of the pleasure den. Felt like we were in hot D for a second. Panning the Hallways, and you're just getting orgy after orgy after orgy. Tell me more about that. I'm interested. I'm not gonna lie. I'm interested in learning more about that. I would watch that, you know, for the kids.

[Joanna Robinson]

Kids.

[Mallory Rubin]

For the children. I have some notes for the New Republic on their bombing technique. You know, they come in, they're like. Well, it's where the din's like, we're gonna jump out. Yeah. Lock on me. On you? Are you sure? Okay. There's like, almost. I would describe as like an ADU right next to the main structure that they don't bomb at all. It's like, what if someone's still in there? That's it. That's all we're gonna do. Very strange. The score was amazing. I thought it was elect. Genuinely electric.

[Joanna Robinson]

The score is incredible. You can listen to it on Spotify or wherever you listen to music. Grogu's World, which is the track, you know, because mainly this score is just a reworking of the fantastic Mandalorian theme. You know, Ludwig Gorenson is just reworking his Absolutely Gangbusters. And it was interesting to hear, you know, like, this is a debate I've been seeing online where people are saying. Many people are saying. Some people are saying, like, is this the first Star wars score without John Williams leitmotifs in it at all? Because it's present even in Rogue One. And so, like, is this the first time we're just getting a pure Ludwig Goranson joint without playing with some of those? And then I've. People can hear these things better than I can. Some people are like, oh, I hear a little bit of this and this track or whatever. So I'll be interested to hear, like, that conversation develop. Mostly, though, even with, like, you know, we get the additional synth stuff and all this sort of stuff like that. This is the Mandalorian and Grogu or the Mandalorian theme reworked. And especially at the end credits. This isn't on the. As far as I can tell, this is not on the soundtrack that's been released. But I was really digging the end credits. We got, like, a jaunty, like, ragtime, like, Mando Grogu. It was just like a bunch of, like, let's try it in a different genre. Like, Mandalorian Theme, I thought was really fun. But Grogu's World, in terms of, like, a new track to listen to, I thought was the real standout. Extraordinary stuff. It's all for everybody.

[Mallory Rubin]

It all comes back to Grogu. You know, just let him sit there and eat mantel mix, watch sports.

[Joanna Robinson]

And that's another moment that Mallory leaned

[Mallory Rubin]

over to me just like Omega.

[Joanna Robinson]

She's like, that's Omega's favorite snack. When Grogu's eating the mantel mix at

[Mallory Rubin]

the gladiator party, what's a better way to connect to the like. Okay, you want people who have watched Bad Batch and love Bad Batch to be like, oh, the act Animated versus Filoni Hive Rise.

[Joanna Robinson]

Like, cool.

[Mallory Rubin]

Do that. You know, just use some Cracker Jacks. Did you like seeing the Razor Crest again? Did you miss the Razor Crest?

[Joanna Robinson]

Sure.

[Mallory Rubin]

More of an appropriate family vehicle, you know, than the. The sports car.

[Joanna Robinson]

Should Pedro Pascal ever go near a gladiator pit again?

[Mallory Rubin]

This is a really good question. No, it's a really good question. Well, so sometimes the performance is electric, but his head at up being exploded like a grape.

[Joanna Robinson]

It's three. It's three times now.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yeah. One of the performances was mesmerizing. It just didn't end well for the character. And then the other two times, it's a real.

[Joanna Robinson]

I say Pedro no more. That's it.

[Mallory Rubin]

When Grogu went inside the stop motion guard droids, did you think about Ant man shrinking down and going inside of

[Joanna Robinson]

a. I always think about inner space. That's something I think about a lot also. So, you know, as I was thinking about the Jim Henson movies, I know you haven't seen Labyrinth, but this is very similar to. There are these guards at the gates of the Goblin King's castle that, like, turn into these metallic giant things. And it takes one of our. This little dog who's one of the band of heroes, like, gets in and drives. I think it's the dog. Maybe it's someone. Maybe it's Hoggle. I can't remember who does it, but one of the good guys gets in and, like, starts driving the mech. So, you know, we're doing a Labyrinth homage. I'm not mad about that. And the fact that they use stop motion animation, like, that fight was really dragging on for me. So, like, I wasn't having the best time, but I was delighted to see the Phil Tippet sort of like stop motion animation technique being used there.

[Mallory Rubin]

The stop motion, very cool. The use of miniatures, like with the ship, very cool. Obviously, the puppets. These things that hearken back to the soul of OG Star Wars.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah.

[Mallory Rubin]

As you already said, though, then the.

[Joanna Robinson]

Everything else is soulless.

[Mallory Rubin]

Here is Radha Slap, whatever that is.

[Joanna Robinson]

Should we eat some cookies?

[Mallory Rubin]

Oh, yeah, let's have a Cookie.

[Joanna Robinson]

We're gonna, we're gonna wrap this up.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let's have a cookie.

[Joanna Robinson]

Friend of the pod Month has really been a snack forward endeavor.

[Mallory Rubin]

It sure has, Grogu. You know what? He was loving on the snack front when Radha was feeding him. You know, the, like, little blue, like shrimpy things. Loved that. Yeah.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right, this is not a free ad.

[Mallory Rubin]

No, no free ads.

[Joanna Robinson]

No free ads. But.

[Mallory Rubin]

But I do still need to try that Burger King Kroger shake. No free ads. But I do still need to try it.

[Joanna Robinson]

But Nabisco, maker of the Nilla Wafer, has put out these little blue cookies that are. I still think they should have gone like full macaron, which is like essentially what the Grogu cookies are.

[Mallory Rubin]

Yes.

[Joanna Robinson]

We were warned by our junior producer who, who provided us with these cookies that they will turn our mouths extraordinarily blue.

[Mallory Rubin]

And so we did not eat them at the beginning of the podcast.

[Joanna Robinson]

This is an end of PO ever. You don't want to use the force to grab it. Okay.

[Mallory Rubin]

Delicious.

[Joanna Robinson]

It tastes like V wafer. Arjuna says, is this good ASMR or bad asmr? Arjuna says

[Mallory Rubin]

that.

[Joanna Robinson]

All right. How blue is your mouth? Let me see. Probably pretty blue.

[Mallory Rubin]

Let me see here.

[Joanna Robinson]

Pretty blue.

[Mallory Rubin]

But just the tongue, not the teeth.

[Joanna Robinson]

Yeah, you're too. Yeah, just your tongue. That's the end of the podcast. Not brought to you by Nabisco or Lucasfilm. But we love you, man. We love you, Grogu. We love you, Mando. Yeah. And we would love to see you in a better adventure.

[Mallory Rubin]

And I'll hate you, Mando, because you're a legend. Remember that. Yeah, that was the good stuff.

[Joanna Robinson]

Thank you to who's here. Jacob Cornette's here. CT is here. Our dinner and pal is here. Scott Lee is here. Carlos Groboga's here. Jamia Dinneron will be helping us out with the social. Thank you all.

[Mallory Rubin]

Thank you to Grogu. Man, what an actual force for good in this cold, dark world.

[Joanna Robinson]

We'll be back in the cinemas for disclosure day.

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[Joanna Robinson]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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[Mallory Rubin]

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